1 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I'm Kira Bendram, editor of Bloomberg's Greener 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Living section and a good friend of the Pod. Today 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 1: is a special day on Zero because today is a 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: day your usual host has been waiting on for months. 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: Climate Capitalism, a new book by Akshat Rapi, is now 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: on sale. Climate Capitalism sets out to answer an important question. 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: If capitalist systems are set up to maximize profits, how 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: can they also prioritize the planet. Over twelve chapters, Akshot 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: introduces a dozen people who are already making climate capitalism work, 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: from the engineer who shaped China's electric car policies, to 11 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: the politician who helped make net zero a UK law, 12 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: to the CEO who fought off a takeover attempt so 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: you could stick with a sustainability strategy. Akshat and I 14 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: have known each other for almost seven years now, and 15 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: what comes across in his book is what comes across 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: every time I talk to him. A lot of very 17 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: smart and very interesting people are working on climate problems. 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: Many of them are proof positive that the capitalist framework 19 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: can be effective. As Akshot writes in the book's very 20 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: first line, it's now cheaper to save the world than 21 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: destroy it. I also know how much work Ashot has 22 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 1: put into this book, so after reading it, I thought 23 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: it might be fun to put him on the hot 24 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: seat for once, because I wanted to ask aksha if 25 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: climate capitalism is so doable, why does it seem so difficult? Akshat, 26 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: Welcome to your podcast. How are you feeling nervous? 27 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: Because I don't usually get interviewed, I'm not on this 28 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:40,839 Speaker 2: side of the screen. 29 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: I'll try to be gentle. The underpinning of the book, 30 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: I would say, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, 31 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: is that capitalism and climate progress are compatible because they 32 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: have to be. You say in the intro, changing our 33 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: entire economic system and our entire energy system in the 34 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: time that we need to do it to affect change 35 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: with the climate is just really not feasible. And I'm 36 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: curious whether you think most people would agree, Like if 37 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: you sort of set out with these two things are compatible, 38 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: do you think of that as a statement of fact 39 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: an article of faith? Do you think you're making a 40 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: provocative argument? Where do you think most people land on 41 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: this question of whether these two ideas can work together? 42 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: Sadly, the answer is that most people haven't thought about it. 43 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: The trouble with climate is that there are very loud voices, 44 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 2: very few of them on opposite side of the political spectrum. Yes, 45 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: there's a whole range of voices in the middle, but 46 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 2: that's also a small population. Most people aren't thinking about 47 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 2: climate solutions. But if we speak to the climate crowd, 48 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 2: I think most people will not agree that capitalism can 49 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 2: be a solution. And that's because the root of environmentalism, 50 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 2: or the root of most people who are trying to 51 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 2: work on solutions, has been to try and overcome this 52 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 2: economic system that we must accept has been a part 53 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 2: of the problem, has been driving force of profit maximization 54 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: over making sure all the impacts of that process are 55 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 2: taken into consideration. And so there is no doubt it's 56 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: a provocation. That is how the publisher pitched it to me, 57 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 2: which is, if you're going to give people something they 58 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 2: will read, you have to be a little provocative. But 59 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 2: as I wrote the book, and as I tried to 60 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: tell the stories, it actually became easier because I wasn't 61 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,839 Speaker 2: trying to create something that wasn't happening. I wasn't trying 62 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 2: to make a case for something that should happen. I 63 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: ended up writing a series of stories of things that 64 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: are already happening. 65 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: So the way you've structured the book, as you're alluding to, 66 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: is each chapter you give us a person who is 67 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: working towards climate campus is not just one person, but 68 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: there is sort of an anchor person in most of 69 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: the chapters. So for example, we've got Wan Gang, who 70 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: is not a household name the way Elon Musk is 71 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: in terms of electric cars, but has plays a huge 72 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: role in ev development in China. Or we've got Brian E. Worthington, 73 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: who was actually the very first guest on Zero, who 74 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: was the lead author of the two thousand and eight 75 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: Climate Change Act in the UK. I'm curious what made 76 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: you want to approach the book in this way where 77 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: it's centered around people, instead of maybe looking at a 78 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: different technology in each chapter, or even a company, or 79 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: even just telling the story linearly over time. 80 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: Our driving force for the kind of journalism that I've 81 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: kind of learned with Yukira, starting at Qurts and then 82 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 2: now at Bloombergreen has been to try and tell stories 83 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: that have not already been told, or tell them in 84 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: a way that has not already been done. Take Bill 85 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 2: Gates's How to Avoid a Climate Disaster. Really good book 86 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: makes the case for what needs to be done with 87 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: some small case studies of what's already being done. Or 88 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: This Changes Everything by Naomi Klein, which is in the 89 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 2: subtitle The Climate Versus Capitalism, which is a rhetorical powerful 90 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: exposition of what's wrong with the system and why we 91 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 2: must break it down. I wanted to take the journalistic 92 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: instincts of taking the story of I, really one individual, 93 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: but then building out the context in which and the 94 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: decades over which some of these stories play out. And 95 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: my hope was that having the anchor person will allow 96 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 2: people to read those stories in a way that they 97 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 2: won't get lost in the abstract ideas that are all 98 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 2: around us to deal with the climate problem. 99 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: It almost reminds me of when you're a kid and 100 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: you think politicians are just like such adults and like 101 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: these people that make all these huge decisions, and the 102 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: older you get, you're like, right, they're just we're just humans. 103 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: I'll try to figure it out, and they're just people 104 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: now my age, with my level of expertise shaping policy, 105 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: and there's something a little terrifying about that, but there's 106 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: just some comforting that These are human beings actively working 107 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: to solve these problems, who are really applying themselves to it, 108 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: and they are turning the abstract into something quite tangible. 109 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: Or you can affect change. 110 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: And that their actions are directed but are also shaped 111 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 2: by the chance encounters and the chance events that they 112 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: live through. 113 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: Is there anyone in your mix of people? I know 114 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: you don't want to choose a favorite child, but I'm 115 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: curious of the people you spoke with or focused on 116 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: in the book, is there anyone you think about the 117 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: most often or you find yourself relaying their story the 118 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: most often when you're talking to other people. 119 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 2: You already mentioned his name. It's One Gang really, because 120 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: it's sort of a character as a Chinese bureaucrat you 121 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 2: rarely hear about. You know, you probably are aware Hi 122 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 2: Jinping as the leader of the country, but you're unlikely 123 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 2: to know very much beyond that as a general news reader. 124 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: And also One Gang doesn't own a social media platform, 125 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 2: so you get this place where this individual within a 126 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: system has made a huge impact on the ev transition, 127 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: getting the Chinese state to spend tens of billions of 128 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 2: dollars in a decade to move the technology, which we 129 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 2: are all benefiting from but people don't know who was 130 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: the driving force, what are the policies, what are the 131 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: massive changes that have allowed this to happen. So it's 132 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 2: the story I bring up very often. The other one 133 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: that I don't bring up that often, but I think 134 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 2: about quite often is the story of Fati Birol. Fatti 135 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: Birol is the head of the International Energy Agency, and 136 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 2: in the set of seven year period that I have 137 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 2: been a climate journalist, he's gone from being the character 138 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: who was hated by the climate movement to being the 139 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: character that is loved by the climate movement. That is 140 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: reflected in how he approaches the problem, even though you 141 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: know he runs an international organization, you can see he 142 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: has really understood the climate problem and gone from this 143 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 2: energy agency that was built as an organization that was 144 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 2: very fossil fuel oriented to being this organization that really 145 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: wants to drive the energy transition. 146 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: For me reading that chapter, and he was also a 147 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: guest on the pod, we have another person who was 148 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,239 Speaker 1: a former zero guest. You're struck almost by how recent 149 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: a lot of this evolution is happening, that it's all 150 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: moving quite quickly, and that one agency is a good 151 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: sort of stand in for how quickly the conversation changes. 152 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about. What I'm thinking of 153 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: is like the thumbs that capitalism allows to be put 154 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: on the scale outside of market forces. So I'm thinking 155 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: about regulations, I'm thinking about subsidies, and as we've heard 156 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: on the podcast very recently, I'm thinking about tools like 157 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: shareholder activism, things you can do to affect change within 158 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: a company. In your view, and having done all this reporting, 159 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: do you think that those tools are sufficient to sort 160 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: of check capitalism's most profit driven in individualism driven instincts. 161 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: We can answer that in multiple ways. Right There is 162 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: actually no one form of capitalism in the world. The 163 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 2: American capitalism is very different from the Indian capitalism, very 164 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: different from the Nordic capitalism, to being very different from 165 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 2: the Chinese capitalism, and each of those at the core 166 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: of it have two tenets profit maximization driven in a 167 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 2: competitive market. However, a market is never free. It's always 168 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: regulated in some form if you want a market to 169 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 2: function and do the job it needs to do for society. 170 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: And to what level that is regulated is different in 171 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: different countries, and we can see there are benefits to 172 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: the level of regulation that may exist in a particular 173 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: ccumstance versus another one. 174 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like you're saying that you have 175 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: to shape the tools of capitalism to the society and 176 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: like the system you're in, and it's all about the execution. 177 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, we probably will never have the perfect way of 178 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: making capitalism work for the planet. But what we do 179 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 2: have is a series of experiments currently happening in different 180 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 2: parts of the world. And what we can see is 181 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: things that are working well in one part work well 182 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 2: because of a certain mix of those tools. And something 183 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 2: I try and do in the book is to learn 184 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: from the successes that are enabled in that context and 185 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 2: whether we can translate those successes in other places where 186 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: maybe there is a different form of capitalism. 187 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: So I think I agree with you that adjusting a 188 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: capitalist system at the margins, or sort of finessing the 189 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: nuance of it, versus trying to overthrow it, is the 190 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: logical move. But for fun, just for fun, I wonder 191 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: what you'd say if we found out tomorrow that we 192 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: actually have another century to deal with climate change. In 193 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: other words, if we could somehow remodel our econom system 194 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: and energy system at the same time, would you change 195 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 1: your answer. 196 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 2: In a way. We already ran that experiment, right, We 197 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: knew the science was pretty certain. Early nineties, mid nineties, 198 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 2: the latest didn't really do very much. So as a 199 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: society we chose not to. And sure you can blame 200 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: certain actors in society directing this, but the end result 201 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 2: is we kind of choose. But if we do have 202 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,479 Speaker 2: another one hundred years and suddenly that is a possibility, 203 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: I think there are a few things we could do. 204 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: One is we should not try and slow down the 205 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: transition in the sectors that are already on the move. 206 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 2: The move to electric cars is a really good one. Yes, 207 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: we're going to need more metals and that's a thing 208 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 2: that we need to deal with, but we will cut 209 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 2: air pollution in cities everywhere in the world, and that's 210 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 2: a good thing. And you could do that for renewables. 211 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: It would be a much better world to have sources 212 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: of energy distributed across the world, rather than being concentrated 213 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: in some places where you have to take a pipe, 214 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: drill it down, get some black go out, ship it 215 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 2: to a refinery, put in tons of energy to try 216 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: and draw out energy. It's just not a good system. 217 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 2: But the biggest advantage we will get with time is 218 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 2: not really to slow down the fossil fuel transition. It 219 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: is more that we'll have more time to do diplomacy, right, 220 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 2: that we'll have more time for countries to actually come 221 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 2: together and agree on something, or we'll have more time 222 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: to find a way in which countries that are going 223 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 2: to struggle can be uplifted and be brought along for 224 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 2: the transition, rather than what is a reality for some 225 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: countries getting drowned at sea levels rise. 226 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: I want to ask you one more question in the 227 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: sort of high level macro capitalism conversation, and I don't 228 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: want this question to come out wrong, so I hope 229 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: you know that I love you and I respect you, 230 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: and I don't mean anything by this, But do you 231 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: think sometimes that you are too much of an up missed? 232 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: Which I asked because I said in the beginning, And 233 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: I think it's true, you, more than anyone I know 234 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: or have worked with, have really helped me see that 235 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: it is possible to reach net zero technically, scientifically, like 236 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: all of those things can fall in place, but we 237 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: are off track to meet net zero by twenty fifty. 238 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: We are still in a place where the wealthiest one 239 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: percent of humanity is responsible for as many emissions as 240 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: the poorest fifty percent. We are not really succeeding at 241 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: the level that we need to. So if, as you 242 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: argue in the book, capitalism can solve the climate crisis, 243 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: the biggest question is why does it seem to be 244 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: failing at it. 245 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: It might be to do with something in my brain 246 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 2: chemistry that I prefer to think this way, but I 247 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: can also justify it, right. It's not that I have 248 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 2: an ideological stance of only writing about optimistic solutions, right. 249 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 2: You know, as a journalist, I do all sorts of things. 250 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 2: I write about problems, I write investigations exposing all the 251 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 2: flaws that companies have and people have. But I also 252 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 2: think one aspect of journalism that is less celebrated, is 253 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: less pursued, is to look at successes and what we 254 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 2: can learn from them. So the optimism is kind of 255 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: baked into doing the book because I wanted to focus 256 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: on the successes. If I wanted to focus on the problems, 257 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: that book's already been written. It's called The Uninhabitable Earth, 258 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: And so I wanted to provide a narrative that would 259 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: be more corrective to where we sit where it feels 260 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: like this problem is so big that we will not 261 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: be able to fight it, that we will not be 262 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 2: able to solve it. And yet if you just look 263 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 2: at the numbers, we are not on track for five 264 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 2: or six degrees celsius of warming, which was within the 265 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 2: realm of possibility as recently as twenty fifteen. And then 266 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: we sign the Paris Agreement and now we're on track 267 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 2: for three degrees celsius. It's not enough, but at least 268 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 2: we may progress. 269 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: After the break. How exactly is climate capitalism supposed to work? 270 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: I want to dig into some of the mechanics here 271 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: of marrying capitalism and climate progress, and I'll start with 272 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: a big question, which is we have seen arguably a 273 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: recent example of capitalism succeeding and failing at the same time, 274 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: which is the COVID vaccine. So, with state support, we 275 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: had private companies that were able to develop vaccines extremely quickly, 276 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: but the distribution was very, very unequal around the world, 277 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: and we see that with all kinds of tech, where 278 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: poorer countries that would benefit from a quicker access ultimately 279 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: don't get it. Is it possible to address that type 280 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: of inequality within the capitalist framework. 281 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 2: The COVID example is such a good one. It's one 282 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: that we taught about as climate journalists at large as 283 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 2: a good parallel. Shouldn't we think of what happened with 284 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: COVID and apply it to climate And there are parallels 285 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: to be drawn, but they are not one to one. 286 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: The COVID vaccine was created to deal with an emergency 287 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: in the human timescale we think of emergencies. Right, climate 288 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 2: emergency is also an emergency, but it's not on the 289 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: same time scale as a COVID vaccine. Did science and 290 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: technology help us avoid what could have been an even 291 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 2: worse disaster? One hundred percent? Right? Take any other global 292 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 2: panamic of this kind. When you didn't have an mRNA vaccine, 293 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: which just won the Nobel Prize earlier this month, we 294 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: would not have been able to create a vaccine at 295 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: the pace at which we did. So you could take 296 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 2: some lessons, which is technology can help, and that global 297 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: diplomacy is crucial in making a global problem solvable. But 298 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: then with climate change, we have time, not to say 299 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: if you have plenty of time or we have infinite time, 300 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: but we have decades and that allows you to think 301 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 2: about that problem differently. In COVID, you kind of needed 302 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 2: one silver bullet solution, You needed a vaccine. In climate, 303 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: you don't have that shortcut. You need all kinds of 304 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 2: solutions to work. And that's a much harder problem in 305 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 2: a way than the COVID vaccine. In some cases, we 306 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 2: also don't kind of have the technology at scale for 307 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 2: some of these problems to be solved. So the parallels exist, 308 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 2: but not enough. And I don't think the failure that 309 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: was COVID or the success that was COVID, because you 310 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 2: can slice and dize it either way, will determine whether 311 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 2: we solve the climate problem or not. 312 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: It's interesting that you fin I mean, obviously it's different timeframes, 313 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: but pandemic was three four years and the next ten 314 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: twenty years are like pretty important. You write in the 315 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: book about how research and development responds to like a 316 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: brute force strategy that like something so important happens, that 317 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: everybody mobilizes around something with such urgency that just like 318 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: makes it happen, And that is generally what happened with 319 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: mRNA vaccines. Don't we need a brute force moment for climate? 320 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: Like it does feel like if we could take a 321 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: little of urgency. See that was implied by the pandemic. 322 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: It would be more effective because, as you say, that 323 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 1: is the thing that tends to move the ball forward 324 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,479 Speaker 1: on technology. 325 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,239 Speaker 2: And we kind of have the brute force method in 326 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 2: different places. A ban on selling fossil fuel cars by 327 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: twenty thirty five, which now exists in more than twenty 328 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 2: countries around the world, including most of the major car markets, 329 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 2: is a brute force strategy, especially if you ask a motorist, 330 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: especially if you ask somebody who loves their gasoline car. 331 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 2: At some point, we're going to have to talk about 332 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: eating less meat. That's going to sound like a brute 333 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 2: force strategy. And so yes, there are uncomfortable choices that 334 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 2: we have to make, and policy will have to play 335 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 2: a role there. If you talk to utilities, they're going 336 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 2: to tell you in the two thousands and twenty tens, 337 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: it was a brute force strategy to come in and 338 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 2: say you need to have ten percent renewables in your 339 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 2: mix by this date. Now they look back and they're like, 340 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: of course, duh, it was so easy. But at the 341 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 2: time they also have but their lobby groups coming around 342 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: and saying that's not good. We are not going to 343 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 2: be able to make that transition work. So yes, it's 344 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: not a brute for strategy in the sense of a 345 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 2: COVID vaccine that there will be a silver bullet solution, 346 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: but we are starting to apply some of those in 347 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: many different parts of the transition. You could very well 348 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 2: argue not enough parts of the transition. 349 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: Let's keep talking about timescale for a second. So also 350 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: in the book, you write about how clean tech development 351 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: basically operates on a longer timescale than most venture capital 352 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: and one of the chapters you go in depth on 353 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: Bill Gates breakthrough Energy ventures, which decided to work in 354 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: a twenty year timeframe instead of the typical ten years. 355 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: What other aspects of traditional investing do you think need 356 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: to be rethought here or are being rethought in an 357 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: era of clean tech being instead of Internet companies. The 358 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: dominant thing that is getting a lot of investment. 359 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 2: A big missing one that I could not have written 360 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 2: a chapter on because there isn't a successful story around 361 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: is how do you move large amounts of cap We're 362 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 2: talking tens to one hundreds of billions of dollars from 363 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: developed country markets to developing country markets. If you look 364 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: at the energy transition today, You can slice the numbers 365 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: many ways, but one way in which you can do 366 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 2: it is see that develop countries are actually spending as 367 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 2: much as is needed on an zero transition. They're not 368 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 2: spending it in the right way, not in the right places, 369 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: they don't have the right policy mix available. But in 370 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 2: terms of pure capital that money is starting to flow 371 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 2: in developed countries. The gap with developing countries is massive, three, 372 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 2: four or five times as much more money is needed 373 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 2: in developing countries, in the places where energy is not 374 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 2: accessible to hundreds of millions of people, in places where 375 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 2: energy demand is growing, and in places where you can't 376 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: tell them not to use the fossil fuels that they 377 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 2: have in their ground. But you can enable them to 378 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 2: transition faster if you allow for money to flow to 379 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 2: places where solar is already the cheapest source of electricity. 380 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 2: Except that all these cash bottlenecks and other bottlenecks, but 381 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 2: definitely cash as one bottleneck that needs to be sorted, 382 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,239 Speaker 2: and there isn't a good solution. We're currently in that 383 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: place where some experiments are happening. There's the Just Energy 384 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 2: Transition Partnership, which many of the G seven countries are 385 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 2: trying with South Africa, with Indonesia, with Vietnam. They're messy. 386 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: It's not kind of working right now, but it's at 387 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 2: least one experiment in moving tens of billions of dollars 388 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 2: to these countries. We'll need many more of those. 389 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: When I was trying to think about to answer this 390 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: question for myself, are there aspects of the investing mindset 391 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: that we would need to change for clean tech? One 392 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: of the things that came to mind for me is failure. 393 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking here of Cylindro, which, for the listener, 394 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: Cylindro went bankrupt in twenty eleven, and it had received 395 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 1: this five hundred and thirty five million dollar loan from 396 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: the US Department of Energy, and it became this huge 397 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: talking point for why the Department of Energy should not 398 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: give out loans, even though the Department of Energy also 399 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: gave Tesla a big loan which worked out quite well. 400 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: Do you think that there's a lower tolerance for failure 401 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: when it comes to clean tech, or at least a 402 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,199 Speaker 1: quicker mindset to use a failure as emblematic of like 403 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: why this whole thing isn't worth doing. 404 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: I think the lower tolerance for failure exists because it 405 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 2: is easy to use that as a political wedge. It 406 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 2: is easy to point to a failure and say the 407 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 2: entire project is not working, even though if you actually 408 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: analyze the US Department of Energy's loan program, it's been 409 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 2: pretty successful. And so it is easy to turn the 410 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 2: failure of a clean tech company into a talking point. 411 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 2: What we do know just from entrepreneurialism one oh one 412 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 2: is that failure is baked into trying to solve a 413 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 2: hard problem, and so while politics can make it hard, 414 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: we should try and make space for more failure, both 415 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: on technology but also on policy. We need many more 416 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 2: experiments around the world trying different models for how to 417 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 2: rein in the excesses of capitalism so it can work 418 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 2: to tackle climate change. 419 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: Let me ask you for a second about entrepreneurs. I 420 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: want to talk about the people that are starting these 421 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: companies and developing these technologies. In reading the book, I 422 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: found it kind of striking how many of the people 423 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: we met who did not necessarily start out focused on 424 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: climate change or start out focused on solving for emissions. 425 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: They wanted to hedge against oil price spikes in the seventies, 426 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 1: or maybe they just thought like that's going to be 427 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,719 Speaker 1: a big industry and I could make money in it. 428 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: I guess my first question is do you think this 429 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: is a feature or a bug? Like, does it matter 430 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: if most of the entrepreneurs out there right now aren't 431 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: actually motivated by climate change specifically. 432 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 2: It's a feature of the moment in which we are 433 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 2: in the transition. I wasn't a climate journalist till twenty 434 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 2: sixteen seventeen, and I am a climate journalist now. This 435 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 2: is a story that I've heard again and again over 436 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: the past decade, where people realize how big a problem 437 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 2: this is, want to do something about it, and finally 438 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 2: find a place in the energy trend in the future. 439 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 2: That may not be the case, because we already have 440 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 2: teenagers in schools going out to strike wanting to work 441 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 2: on solutions. But is it a feature of a bug? 442 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: I think it doesn't matter. I think for entrepreneurs, they 443 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: need to go out and solve a problem that they 444 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 2: are really passionate about. And currently, it turns out society 445 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: is making more entrepreneurs care about the climate problem. That's 446 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 2: a good place to be. 447 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: I mean, you're also someone that has written another book 448 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: with youth climate activists and has spent a lot of 449 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: time talking to them, and it sounds like you're saying, 450 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: in twenty thirty years, we will look back and see 451 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: that actually a greater share of people who got into 452 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: this space did it explicitly because they wanted to solve 453 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: the problem of climate change. 454 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 2: Yeah right, rather than the transition that many of the 455 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 2: people I know today have made, which is they didn't 456 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 2: start working on climate now they are working on climate. 457 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: Okay, let me bring this all back around to one 458 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 1: question for you, which is, let's come back to capitalism. 459 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: Everyone loves to hear that. As we talked about a 460 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: little bit, China. Is this really fascinating case study because 461 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 1: it is dominant in several aspect of clean energy, including 462 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: solar manufacturing and electric cars. And it is both communists 463 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: and capitalistic, which Beijing artfully refers to as capitalism with 464 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: Chinese characteristics. So if we roll with this idea, I 465 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: want to ask you to invent what I'm calling capitalism 466 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: with climate characteristics. If we had a system that was 467 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: backed up by the larger motivations of the planet, but 468 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: was capitalist, what would that look like to you. 469 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 2: It's never a good idea to make me dictator of 470 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: the world. 471 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: Just one country, okay, aach take over the world or 472 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: dictator of a country. 473 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 2: In a way, the answer is that we are already 474 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 2: in that place where there is capitalism with climate characteristics 475 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 2: in different parts of the world kind of forced upon you, right, 476 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 2: Like climate ippacts are here, you got to deal with them. 477 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 2: And in the US you're getting an Inflation Reduction Act, 478 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 2: which is a subsidy driven injection of capital into green solutions. 479 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: In Europe you're getting the Green Deal, which is a 480 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 2: little bit of so but mostly direction and regulation and 481 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: clarity on where the money needs to be spent. And 482 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 2: in China you're getting a jingoistic to some extent, version 483 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 2: of climate capitalism, where China wants to build these green 484 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: technologies as a way of being a leader in the world, 485 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 2: taking advantage of it to provide the solutions that the 486 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 2: world needs. That's why we have Chinese solar panels dotted 487 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 2: all around the world. So is there one form of 488 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,479 Speaker 2: capitalism or one set of solutions that will enable us 489 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 2: to make this work. I'm not so sure. I think 490 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 2: nobody currently has the solution, the perfect solution, And even 491 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: if we did have the perfect solution, as we did 492 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 2: during the COVID vaccine. We are not going to be 493 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 2: able to deploy it correctly because we're humans and refight 494 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 2: and we gossip, and we don't do the things that 495 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: may seem the most economically rational thing to do. But 496 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 2: in that messyness of being human, I think we are 497 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 2: starting to move in a direction which is acknowledging the 498 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 2: problem that is climate change, acknowledging the opportunities that it 499 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 2: presents in creating a world that will not just deal 500 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: with the climate impacts coming our way, but also be 501 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 2: a better world. Getting rid of your fossil fuel car, yes, 502 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 2: cuts down to your two emissions, but also cuts air pollution. 503 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 2: It's a really good thing. You should do it even 504 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: if there was no climate problem. And so there are 505 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 2: all these solutions that are going to just make the 506 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 2: world a better place, and it's starting to happen again, 507 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 2: not at pace, but at least there are people working 508 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: on it. 509 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: You also have this great sort of through line in 510 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,239 Speaker 1: the book that we sort of have decoupled in our 511 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: mind the economic forces and the climate forces, instead of 512 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,239 Speaker 1: saying that the planetary motivations and the economic motivations are 513 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: the same. One of the chapters you talk about London 514 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: developing its sewer system, which is fantastic history. And you 515 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 1: have this quote from someone saying, un till people have 516 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: the idea that throwing CO two in the air is 517 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: like throwing poop in the street, we're not going to 518 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: spend what it costs. So until we see that, we 519 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: are compromising ourselves our health. But certainly like our economies 520 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: with climate change, we're not going to put the money 521 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: that we need to solve the problem. So if we 522 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: could just put these ideas together, that capitalism with climate 523 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: characteristics is just capitalism if you really think about the 524 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: climate as a representation or something that has an impact 525 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: on the economy, we could do the mental math a 526 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: little bit. 527 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 2: Better, yes, but we'll always have people opportunistic enough to 528 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 2: try and take advantage and break that consensus. The UK 529 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 2: is a very good example of that. In the chapter, 530 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 2: I go through the creation of the Climate Change Act 531 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 2: as this thing that has driven the country to become 532 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 2: a climate leader around the world, cut the most emissions 533 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 2: amongst G seven and G twenty countries. And yet today 534 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 2: we are led by a prime minister and a party 535 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 2: that is trying to water down, that is trying to 536 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: find vedge issues to create false narratives around a meat 537 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 2: tax or trying to tell you not to have a 538 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 2: fifteen minute liveable city. It's just a way for politicians 539 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: to try and get some words here or there. And 540 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: that's going to happen, right if it can happen in 541 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: the UK, a country where people understand climate change, where 542 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 2: there's a political consensus on trying to do something about it, 543 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 2: and yet some politicians in powerful places are going to 544 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: do things to try and slow down climate action. We 545 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 2: are in for a messy transition. 546 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: The book is out. You've been working on it forever. 547 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: How does it feel. How do you feel having this 548 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: finally out in the world. 549 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 2: It's such a long process, a really nice one, but 550 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 2: also you just never know whether it land by the 551 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 2: time it comes. So I didn't know what it would 552 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 2: be like. When I actually held a copy in my hand, 553 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 2: and I will not lie, it did feel really satisfying. 554 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: I sat down then I was like, huh, it's real. 555 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I made this. I want to throw to you 556 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: the questions, which is, if you could put a billboard 557 00:28:53,600 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: outside of your house, what would it say. You've given 558 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: this thought, You've asked it like twenty times. 559 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 2: No, I've given it no thought. I always go back 560 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 2: to what my dad told me. There is good in 561 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: every person in the world. 562 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: That's nice. Do you wanna know what mine is? 563 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 2: Please? 564 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: I would do my favorite line from your book. The 565 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: robots did their jobs naked. No no additional continent. Just 566 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: get people thinking, you know, while they're driving. Thank you 567 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: for listening to Zero. If you'd like to order a 568 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: copy of Oxshot's book, there's a link in the show notes. 569 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: It will make you rethink where we're at on the 570 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: climate fight, and the book also makes for a great 571 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: stocking stuffer. If you liked this episode, please take a 572 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: moment to rate and review it, Subscribe on Apple Podcasts 573 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: or Spotify. Send it to a friend or a budding 574 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: climate capitalist. Get in touch at Zero pod at Bloomberg 575 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer 576 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: is Christine driscoll Our. Theme music is composed by Wonderly 577 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Anna Maserakas and Gilda de Carly. I'm 578 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: Kira Bendram and Zero will be back next week.