WEBVTT - Never Punch Down!  Lanhee Chen talks to Armstrong & Getty

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<v Speaker 1>Getty Show. Look, I think the good news but Joe

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<v Speaker 1>Biden is this was maybe the best he could do.

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<v Speaker 1>And the bad news is this maybe the best he

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<v Speaker 1>could do. That's David axel Rod and David axe Rod

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<v Speaker 1>ran Obama's campaign. Joe Scarborough on Morning Joe had this

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<v Speaker 1>to say, give me a prey. I don't have an

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<v Speaker 1>You people, Donald trop and you're talking about defending Obamacare.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Republican talking points. Who is advising you? Wow? A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of beating up on the Obama Ara policies on

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<v Speaker 1>the debate stage last night. Well, they're going after that

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<v Speaker 1>three percent of Democrats that didn't like Barack Obama exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Finally they get the pummeling they deserve. Lan he Chen

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<v Speaker 1>joins us. Lan He is a David and Diane Stephy

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<v Speaker 1>research Fellow at the Whoever Institution, Director of Domestic Policy

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<v Speaker 1>Studies and Lecture in Public Policy at Stanford University. Lan

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<v Speaker 1>he how are you, sir, Oh, I'm doing fine. Nothing

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<v Speaker 1>like two nights of debates to get you going in

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<v Speaker 1>the morning. Tell you what. I feel, re energized and

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<v Speaker 1>just more in love with life than ever. So what

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<v Speaker 1>stood out most to you? What's what's on the tip

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<v Speaker 1>of your tongue this morning? Debate? Wise? Well, I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's interesting. You know, the candidates had two nights to present.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, what I would say is a vision for

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<v Speaker 1>how they plan to govern, how they plan to maybe

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<v Speaker 1>even defeat Donald Trump, and instead, especially last night, they

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<v Speaker 1>really spent their time attacking one another. I thought last

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<v Speaker 1>night was really interesting because everyone's coming after Joe Biden,

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<v Speaker 1>then Kamala Harris gets attacked, and then kind of inexplicably,

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<v Speaker 1>Joe Biden attacks Corey Booker, and it was just a

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<v Speaker 1>very bizarre confluence of events when when I thought it

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<v Speaker 1>was going to be a much more substantive conversation. I

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<v Speaker 1>really thought it was a lot more of a scrum,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't know that's going to serve the Democrats

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<v Speaker 1>well in the long run. So I thought it was

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<v Speaker 1>a little puzzling from that perspective. Well do you do

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<v Speaker 1>you blame? The candidates? Are? A lot of people are

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<v Speaker 1>blaming CNN. They're they're taking a beating from MSNBC in

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<v Speaker 1>The Washington Post has a whole column about that. What's

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<v Speaker 1>with this? Pitting each other? Them against each other? Every

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<v Speaker 1>question is set up a she said something bad about you,

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<v Speaker 1>You said something about her. Now you argue, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>what what is that? Well, here's my thing. The first

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<v Speaker 1>rule in politics is you don't answer the question, so

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<v Speaker 1>you don't have to take the bait. I mean why

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<v Speaker 1>these guys take the bait and it's like, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 1>Joe Biden to this about you a great, I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 1>attack Joe Biden. The reality is that the person who

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<v Speaker 1>I thought that the most to lose last night was

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<v Speaker 1>Joe Biden. And I know the conventional wisdom as well. Okay, look,

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<v Speaker 1>he didn't do that badly. Let's be honest, he didn't

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<v Speaker 1>do all that great either. I mean, if if if

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<v Speaker 1>you watch that debate and you see Joe Biden punching again,

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<v Speaker 1>punching down at Corey book of the first rule that

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<v Speaker 1>we always use with candidates and debate preparation. When I've

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<v Speaker 1>been in dozens of these meetings, if you don't punch down,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're the front runner, why do you punch down?

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<v Speaker 1>And so in my mind, for Joe Biden last night,

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<v Speaker 1>it may have been a better performance in the first

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<v Speaker 1>time he went out there, but gosh, if that's the

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<v Speaker 1>best he can do, I think his campaigns in trouble. Well, boy,

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<v Speaker 1>you and I are some of the few people saying

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<v Speaker 1>that I didn't think he was very impressive, but he

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<v Speaker 1>did avoid disaster. You know, you mentioned substance and policy,

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<v Speaker 1>and I've advocated for more of that in my whole life,

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<v Speaker 1>and I finally got it the last couple of nights,

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<v Speaker 1>and I found myself just mystified and bored by the

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<v Speaker 1>endless recitation of the minor differences between various people's health

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<v Speaker 1>care policies. I like substance, But how did this strike you? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>I thought the health care discussion dived into the weeds

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<v Speaker 1>quite quickly. I mean, look that the reality is that

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<v Speaker 1>there are very stark differences between what someone like Joe

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<v Speaker 1>Biden and what someone like Kamala Harris want to do

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<v Speaker 1>with healthcare. And they could have made those things abundantly clear,

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<v Speaker 1>while at the same time, by the way, pointing out

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<v Speaker 1>the differences between what they want to do and what

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<v Speaker 1>they allege Republicans want to do. But instead they were

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<v Speaker 1>talking about this percentage of people and that percentage of

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<v Speaker 1>people on this element of the plan, and that all

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<v Speaker 1>on the plan. So I did think they get lost

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<v Speaker 1>in the weeds really quickly, and and there I do

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<v Speaker 1>blame the moderators a little bit, and the moderators could

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<v Speaker 1>have jumped in and tried to pull them out of

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<v Speaker 1>the weeds. But you're right, I think the conversation got

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<v Speaker 1>way more specific than most Americans cared to hear about,

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<v Speaker 1>even those who like policy. I know we talked about

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<v Speaker 1>this before the first debate started. How much do these

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<v Speaker 1>debates matter. There's not a lot of da to show

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<v Speaker 1>that they move the needle much that the polls move much.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe for a day or twobe and they kind of

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<v Speaker 1>settled back. There are a couple of examples of people

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<v Speaker 1>when Rick Perry couldn't name, you know, the main departments.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that really damaged him, But there are very

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<v Speaker 1>few examples. And then I saw an article today Laundry

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<v Speaker 1>listing all of the times Hillary Clinton has want a debate,

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<v Speaker 1>Like practically every debate she's ever been in she won.

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<v Speaker 1>She's had like one gaff in her entire career, yet

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<v Speaker 1>she lost repeatedly running for president. So what do they matter? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I think you raise a very good point, which is

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<v Speaker 1>what generally happens with these debates is they create temporary

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<v Speaker 1>changes in temporary shifts in how voters view various candidates,

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<v Speaker 1>but they don't have lasting changes necessarily in the scope

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<v Speaker 1>and the nature of the race. Now, what they can

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<v Speaker 1>do is, in this situation, they can create uh, sort

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<v Speaker 1>of a buzz around a candidate who maybe nobody was

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<v Speaker 1>paying attention to. So Julian Castro got his five minutes

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<v Speaker 1>of fame out of the first debate. In the second debate,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you could argue that, um, there were others

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<v Speaker 1>potentially like Corey Booker, who may have benefited. But in

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<v Speaker 1>the long run, I'm not really convinced the debates matter

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<v Speaker 1>a whole ton in terms of the atmospherics of the

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<v Speaker 1>race and where things are headed. Biden is still going

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<v Speaker 1>to be the front runner. You're still going to have

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<v Speaker 1>a pack of three or four that are in that

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<v Speaker 1>next group that are nipping at his heels. And I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think that changes very much. When it could change potentially,

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<v Speaker 1>as when we get down to two or three people

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<v Speaker 1>in the debates, then if someone has a very good

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<v Speaker 1>performance or a very bad performance, it could affect things.

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<v Speaker 1>But for now, at least, I do think as steady

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<v Speaker 1>as she goes lanh chen is with the Hoover Institution

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<v Speaker 1>and Stanford University. Listen, I'm going to make a number

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<v Speaker 1>of very wobbly assumptions and leap right to Biden versus

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<v Speaker 1>Donald J. Trump on stage debating. Uh, Trump's gonna go

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<v Speaker 1>mean Biden is going to try to be the ah

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<v Speaker 1>shucks every And how do you see that plan out?

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<v Speaker 1>Any idea? Well? You know here, here here's the thing.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean. Trump is very very skilled in these debate contexts,

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<v Speaker 1>and and I just don't think that people realize that

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<v Speaker 1>he is able to use um elements of his rhetoric,

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<v Speaker 1>elements of his now his record as president. I think

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<v Speaker 1>he's gonna use that very effectively. I think Biden, if

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<v Speaker 1>anything in the last couple of debates has shown that

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<v Speaker 1>he's just a step slower then he was. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>the last time I really remember him on debate stage, obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>was in twelve when he was in that VP debate

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<v Speaker 1>against Paul Ryan. I think that's the last time he

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<v Speaker 1>debated before this, seven years ago. And yeah, it's seven

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<v Speaker 1>years ago. And what you realize is if you go

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<v Speaker 1>I would encourage people go back and watch some of

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<v Speaker 1>that tape. The Joe Biden from seven years ago very

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<v Speaker 1>different than the Joe Biden that we've seen in the

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<v Speaker 1>last two debates. And I do think he's gotten a

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<v Speaker 1>step flower And I wonder what it's gonna look like

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<v Speaker 1>when he's debating Trump, because Trump is gonna be relatively nimble,

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<v Speaker 1>relatively agile, and and Biden may be able to CounterPunch,

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<v Speaker 1>but is he gonna be able to do it effectively?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just not sure. I'm convinced, based on what I've

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<v Speaker 1>seen the last two nights or the last two debates,

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<v Speaker 1>that he's gonna be a great counterpuncher. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>that you've got to be a great counterpuncher, and you've

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<v Speaker 1>got to be able to think about ways to put

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<v Speaker 1>Trump on the defensive if you're gonna go up against it,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just not sure Biden can do that. If you

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<v Speaker 1>were advising Kamala Harris prepping her, what would you say

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<v Speaker 1>about last night's debate performance or her performances in general. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I think I think she's been fine. Um. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that that her problem is that at some point her

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<v Speaker 1>rejoinder was always, well, those are Republican talking points, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's like, yeah, there Republican talking points, but there's some

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<v Speaker 1>truth to the matter in other words, And Republicans say

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<v Speaker 1>your plan is going to kick hundreds of millions of

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<v Speaker 1>people off their health insurance. You know you gotta have

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<v Speaker 1>an answer for that, right. You gotta tell us why

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<v Speaker 1>it is that your plan is not going to decimate

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<v Speaker 1>private health insurance. It will, by the way. Uh, you've

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<v Speaker 1>got to be able to tell us why your criminal

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<v Speaker 1>justice record as as d A doesn't square now with

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<v Speaker 1>what you're saying you want to do as president. You've

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<v Speaker 1>got to be able to answer these kinds of tough

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<v Speaker 1>questions without sort of going, well, they're just Republican talking points.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think for now it's an interesting line. People

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<v Speaker 1>in the crowd like it. But it's gonna get old,

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<v Speaker 1>So she's gonna have to really have a substantive set

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<v Speaker 1>of responses to some of these challenges. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>she's got to better articulate what her theory of the

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<v Speaker 1>case is. Why is it that she thinks she can

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<v Speaker 1>beat Donald Trump? Why is it that she thinks she's

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<v Speaker 1>got a better vision for America? And that hasn't really

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<v Speaker 1>come through in the last two debates. She I saw

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<v Speaker 1>her pretty low and a likability pull the other day.

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<v Speaker 1>She needs to come up with a second tone. She

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<v Speaker 1>has one tone and if she retrieved, angry is self righteous.

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<v Speaker 1>Sometimes I see stuff where she's like at a coffee

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<v Speaker 1>shop or something talking to people and she's got kind

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<v Speaker 1>of this giggly schoolgirl thing going that's very appealing, But

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<v Speaker 1>on the stage it's just always the same tone. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>listen to Jack the section, um you want her in?

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<v Speaker 1>What a school girl out for it? Or what? I

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<v Speaker 1>just I'm shocked for this. Sorry you go ahead. I

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<v Speaker 1>was gonna say. I think I think it is a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of a problem for her in that in

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<v Speaker 1>that she she doesn't seem to have multiple gears, as

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<v Speaker 1>it were, and be effective in a campaign, you will

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<v Speaker 1>need to have that nuance and be able to shift

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<v Speaker 1>into different gears at different times. So we'll have to

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<v Speaker 1>see if she develops that as a campaign goes on one.

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<v Speaker 1>He who among the like the third tier people, the

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<v Speaker 1>one to two percenters, has impressed you lately? Okay, So

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<v Speaker 1>I'll say this. I thought the first night Steve Bullock,

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<v Speaker 1>the governor of Montana, was was actually quite effective because

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<v Speaker 1>of his case is, Look, I'm the only Democrat up

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<v Speaker 1>here who's one in a state that Trump won. That's

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<v Speaker 1>pretty darn compellent. I mean, if I'm a Democrat who

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<v Speaker 1>wants electability, why not go for a guy who's been

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<v Speaker 1>a governor who's got, you know, some some good plans

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<v Speaker 1>that seem relatively reasonable, who has got some progressive streaks.

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<v Speaker 1>Why not go for a guy like that? So I

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<v Speaker 1>Bullock has been good and by the same token, Um Bennett,

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<v Speaker 1>the Senator from Colorado last night, I thought did a

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<v Speaker 1>great job of going up against the more liberal policies.

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<v Speaker 1>Particularly that meant I thought he was pretty effect right.

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<v Speaker 1>But he's got a voice like a cartoon barrel on here,

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<v Speaker 1>so that's gonna hurt him. Heyst that's going to be

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<v Speaker 1>a problem. We'd love to talk to you all day.

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<v Speaker 1>We're out of time, but lanhy Chen of the Hoover Institution,

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<v Speaker 1>Stanford University, Uh, it's always great to talk to you,

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<v Speaker 1>and we'll talk again soon. Thanking our plus Sean do

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<v Speaker 1>your do your Governor Bennett voice? Oh hi, I think

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<v Speaker 1>we should just all get together and have a nice picnic.

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<v Speaker 1>Sounds like a cartoon. Isn't this great? Everybody? The real

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<v Speaker 1>lesson is the friends we made along the way. Now

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<v Speaker 1>let's have a delicious picnic. Yeah, he can't help, but

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<v Speaker 1>this is you're not gonna get this analysis CNN if

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<v Speaker 1>you're not and getty. Whether you host a nightly dinner

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<v Speaker 1>party for two or five, keeping your eating and dining

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<v Speaker 1>For an exceptional cloth like paper towel, there's Viva Visit

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<v Speaker 1>of home