WEBVTT - Pastor T.L. Barrett’s Gospel 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:24.596 Pushkin. Pastor Teo Barrett's been known on Chicago's South Side 0:00:24.716 --> 0:00:28.356 as a religious and community leader for fifty years, but 0:00:28.436 --> 0:00:31.556 it wasn't until recently that people started to uncover Barrett's 0:00:31.556 --> 0:00:46.396 trove of gospel music. In the nineteen seventies, Barrett began 0:00:46.476 --> 0:00:49.916 making recordings of the music performed in his church. These 0:00:49.916 --> 0:00:52.716 were sermons he turned into songs that sat around for 0:00:52.916 --> 0:00:56.036 years until rappers started sampling them in the last decade, 0:00:56.756 --> 0:01:01.956 people like Kanye West, Ti, DJ Khalin, Alicia Keys. His 0:01:02.076 --> 0:01:04.636 song Nobody Knows was even used in a popular Nike 0:01:04.636 --> 0:01:08.036 commercialist Steph Curry a couple of years ago. All this 0:01:08.116 --> 0:01:11.076 recent attention on aster TiO Barrett has culminated in a 0:01:11.156 --> 0:01:14.116 new box set from the Numero group called I Should 0:01:14.156 --> 0:01:17.476 Wear a Crown, thirty nine tracks of his songs and 0:01:17.476 --> 0:01:21.236 sermons throughout the years. You'll notice in my conversation with 0:01:21.316 --> 0:01:24.996 TiO Barrett that he's a pastor through and through. He 0:01:25.076 --> 0:01:28.396 can't help but breach, and in this episode you'll hear 0:01:28.436 --> 0:01:32.036 a lot of his trademark aphorisms. You'll also hear about 0:01:32.036 --> 0:01:34.436 his distant relation to the Reverend Ceo Franklin, and of 0:01:34.476 --> 0:01:38.276 course his daughter, the great Arita Franklin. Pastor Barrett and 0:01:38.316 --> 0:01:40.036 I also talk about how he went from a high 0:01:40.036 --> 0:01:43.236 school dropout to a community leader, plus what it was 0:01:43.276 --> 0:01:45.476 like for him to have his music discovered so publicly 0:01:45.676 --> 0:01:52.956 after decades. This is broken record liner notes for the 0:01:52.996 --> 0:02:01.676 digital age. I'm justin Richmondtin. Here's my conversation with Pastor 0:02:01.676 --> 0:02:04.996 TiO Barrett. We should start from the beginning. You have 0:02:05.116 --> 0:02:09.276 such a rich, fascinating history and the fact that you 0:02:09.356 --> 0:02:12.996 grew up between Queens in Chicago. Can you tell me 0:02:12.996 --> 0:02:15.356 a little bit about Queens and Chicago when you were 0:02:15.356 --> 0:02:20.716 growing up. Yes, I was born in Jamaica, Queens and 0:02:20.836 --> 0:02:25.236 that was in nineteen forty four. So in nineteen fifty one, 0:02:25.476 --> 0:02:30.476 my father had a leading to come to Chicago, where 0:02:30.596 --> 0:02:34.836 we had relatives of his sisters and his brother, and 0:02:34.876 --> 0:02:38.396 so we moved to Chicago and that's where he started 0:02:38.436 --> 0:02:44.596 his ministry. Moved into them Otobie Welles projects, and that's 0:02:44.636 --> 0:02:50.636 where I grew up and we stayed there until just 0:02:51.036 --> 0:02:57.156 before my father's passing, and I was sixteen years of age. 0:02:57.836 --> 0:03:01.076 It wasn't a very pleasant period in my life because 0:03:01.356 --> 0:03:05.676 all of a sudden I was thrust into the mainstream 0:03:05.796 --> 0:03:09.796 of fending for myself. But I had no kind of 0:03:09.836 --> 0:03:14.756 financial cushion to fall back on. So when he passed 0:03:14.756 --> 0:03:20.716 away shortly after that, I was dismissed from the window 0:03:20.756 --> 0:03:24.116 Phillips High School. And I had barely gotten into high 0:03:24.116 --> 0:03:28.636 school on a summer school program. And the last thing 0:03:29.116 --> 0:03:34.316 that the guidance counselor told me as I was leaving out, 0:03:34.396 --> 0:03:37.076 she said, oh, one more thing, Talbert, come back over here. 0:03:37.356 --> 0:03:39.636 But she shook her well manecute finger in my face 0:03:39.636 --> 0:03:42.116 and said, I just want you to know you will 0:03:42.236 --> 0:03:49.396 never ever amount to anything. Well that really set me 0:03:49.516 --> 0:03:56.996 on a road for discovery for my recovering. My sister 0:03:57.116 --> 0:04:00.756 lived at fifty seventh in Indiana. My parents weren't home 0:04:01.356 --> 0:04:05.356 and my sister was home, so that was the only 0:04:05.396 --> 0:04:08.596 place I could go, And so I went to my 0:04:08.596 --> 0:04:12.796 sister's house. But I made a deal with God. Let's say, God, 0:04:12.836 --> 0:04:14.996 if you come out of that sky and just get 0:04:15.076 --> 0:04:18.876 right into my eye, let me have a very personal 0:04:19.476 --> 0:04:23.596 relationship with you and let me discover the power of 0:04:23.676 --> 0:04:28.756 you from inside. I want you to be personal with me. 0:04:29.036 --> 0:04:33.036 I promised God two things that I would keep my 0:04:33.076 --> 0:04:37.836 body clean, no drugs, no alcoholic beverages, and I would 0:04:37.876 --> 0:04:40.396 work to make my mind keen. Since they wouldn't educate me, 0:04:40.396 --> 0:04:43.756 I'd educate myself. So I walked from thirty ninth in 0:04:43.756 --> 0:04:48.716 Indiana to fifty seventh in Indiana. Well fast forward to today, 0:04:49.316 --> 0:04:54.876 I am sitting in a million dollar plus edifice that 0:04:55.476 --> 0:05:00.476 I in my congregation erected in nineteen eighty two. But 0:05:00.596 --> 0:05:03.996 guess where it sits. Justin It sits on the corner 0:05:04.436 --> 0:05:11.276 of fifty fifth in Indiana, which means I walked across 0:05:11.716 --> 0:05:15.676 this street when I was sixteen years old with an 0:05:15.676 --> 0:05:18.156 ache in my heart, but the determination in my soul 0:05:18.836 --> 0:05:23.716 that what that lady said about me, her negative prognostication, 0:05:23.996 --> 0:05:27.756 would not become a positive fact to me. Today I 0:05:27.876 --> 0:05:33.236 owned this corner. My name is on the street sign 0:05:33.756 --> 0:05:38.316 for six blocks from fifty fifth and Lafayette, which is 0:05:38.356 --> 0:05:41.876 where my old church was to fifty five in Indiana. 0:05:42.036 --> 0:05:47.676 It's called T. L. Barrett Boulevard. So after my father died, 0:05:47.756 --> 0:05:51.956 I went back to New York and that's where I 0:05:51.996 --> 0:05:54.236 got my education. I went to the New York State 0:05:54.236 --> 0:05:58.756 Board of Regents after cramming studying, then they gave me 0:05:58.796 --> 0:06:01.076 my high school deployment. But then I came back to 0:06:01.196 --> 0:06:06.196 Chicago because I wanted to find that lady and make 0:06:06.276 --> 0:06:11.196 her aware of how wrong she was. Did you ever 0:06:11.516 --> 0:06:14.756 come across that guidance counselor again? You know what? For 0:06:14.996 --> 0:06:19.676 years I was on the radio, and for years I 0:06:19.676 --> 0:06:24.996 would send her invitations to come to my church because 0:06:25.036 --> 0:06:28.596 I had a seat reserved for her. I invited her 0:06:28.636 --> 0:06:30.236 to come to my home because I had a guest 0:06:30.316 --> 0:06:34.836 room reserved for her. But I found out from some 0:06:34.916 --> 0:06:38.156 others that she did hear me, but she was too 0:06:38.236 --> 0:06:42.836 ashamed to come forward, so I never heard from her again. 0:06:43.076 --> 0:06:45.116 What was the reason you were kicked out of school? 0:06:45.356 --> 0:06:50.356 Because I was delinquent. I didn't understand then that my 0:06:50.476 --> 0:06:55.436 creativity was causing my anxiety. But I didn't understand it then, 0:06:55.796 --> 0:07:00.196 and I would never do anything that was negatively nefarious. 0:07:00.236 --> 0:07:03.876 In study hall, I would get my trio and we'd 0:07:03.876 --> 0:07:08.036 go behind the curtains in the assembly and we would 0:07:08.076 --> 0:07:11.876 started playing music and have the whole assembly rocking. And 0:07:12.476 --> 0:07:16.596 I get suspended for things like that. So now the 0:07:16.596 --> 0:07:19.236 reason why I'm telling you all of this is to 0:07:19.356 --> 0:07:21.716 show you that some of my music was born out 0:07:21.716 --> 0:07:25.796 of that pathos that I lived through. I felt like 0:07:26.516 --> 0:07:30.956 I was like a ship without a sale, and that's 0:07:30.956 --> 0:07:37.796 a pitiful thing, because ships have cargo, valuable cargo. I 0:07:38.036 --> 0:07:41.756 felt that I had some valuable cargo that could make 0:07:42.756 --> 0:07:47.356 an impressive contribution to the building of a greater society. 0:07:48.156 --> 0:07:50.876 But I didn't have a sale. But I found myself. 0:07:50.876 --> 0:07:54.396 So the song says, but I know we can make it. 0:07:55.076 --> 0:07:57.476 I know we can take it, and no matter what 0:07:57.556 --> 0:07:59.596 burdens are on us, I know we can shake it 0:08:00.436 --> 0:08:02.956 because we are like ships. Don't ever forget that You're 0:08:02.996 --> 0:08:06.476 like a ship. You have cargo, you have valuable cargo. 0:08:07.236 --> 0:08:14.076 And then when I thought about being like a ship 0:08:14.076 --> 0:08:31.956 without a sail, just like a sheep without shame, just 0:08:32.516 --> 0:08:44.316 like a sheep, we same. And I know, but I 0:08:44.556 --> 0:08:52.916 know we can make I know we can't take care. 0:08:53.796 --> 0:09:00.876 I know we can take it, take cad. I know 0:09:01.036 --> 0:09:14.716 we could shake it, sad man. So that began my 0:09:14.836 --> 0:09:19.356 message to the young people. I drew young people to 0:09:19.516 --> 0:09:22.156 my ministry in that little church on a one way 0:09:22.196 --> 0:09:25.036 street going north called Lifiat Avenue, and every Tuesday night, 0:09:25.516 --> 0:09:30.076 young people would come from everywhere, and then celebrity started 0:09:30.116 --> 0:09:34.516 hearing about those young people. People like Donnie Hathaway found 0:09:34.596 --> 0:09:37.836 his way there one night, and then Earthwind and Fire, 0:09:38.516 --> 0:09:42.196 Philip Bailey, who's the lead singer, Andrew Warfolk who's a 0:09:42.236 --> 0:09:45.796 horn player, and Larry Dunn who's a drummer. They all 0:09:45.876 --> 0:09:49.076 came over there that night, and the message that they 0:09:49.156 --> 0:09:53.396 heard touched their hearts, and the young people that they saw, 0:09:54.756 --> 0:10:00.316 that amalgamation of message and meaningful ministry touched their hearts. 0:10:01.076 --> 0:10:06.196 I became the spiritual counselor to Earth Wind and Fire. 0:10:07.156 --> 0:10:10.316 So before sixteen, would you say you grew up were 0:10:10.356 --> 0:10:12.916 you spiritual or were you a believer? Did you grew 0:10:12.956 --> 0:10:16.396 up going to church? My father was a minister. My 0:10:16.516 --> 0:10:20.156 father was a preacher. I already had a strong moral 0:10:20.196 --> 0:10:24.356 compass embedded within me. You know, your dad was a minister. 0:10:24.556 --> 0:10:26.476 There was like an attention or an anxiety that you 0:10:26.516 --> 0:10:28.636 were feeling, And it's almost feels like there was a 0:10:28.756 --> 0:10:33.196 tension maybe between your sort of church religious life, in 0:10:33.276 --> 0:10:37.636 her spiritual life, and between maybe music, which maybe felt 0:10:37.676 --> 0:10:40.436 like a more of a worldly poll. I'm just curious 0:10:40.556 --> 0:10:43.356 where that anxiety was coming from. Where you feel your 0:10:43.356 --> 0:10:46.956 creativity also came from. It was born out of frustration, 0:10:47.956 --> 0:10:51.756 you see, I almost turned against the church. You see, 0:10:51.796 --> 0:10:54.636 I never even graduated from grammar school. They would keep 0:10:54.756 --> 0:10:59.076 us in church almost every night. I'm past midnight, and 0:10:59.156 --> 0:11:02.196 I would be sleeping in school the next day, and 0:11:02.476 --> 0:11:05.156 I remember my teacher said, why are you sleeping? I said, 0:11:05.156 --> 0:11:06.996 because I was at church last night. And then when 0:11:06.996 --> 0:11:09.916 I would tell my father and the church members, they 0:11:09.916 --> 0:11:12.076 would say, well, those people are they don't know God, 0:11:12.316 --> 0:11:16.156 and Jesus is coming back any day now, and you'll 0:11:16.156 --> 0:11:18.356 be ready to go to heaven. And well, as you know, 0:11:18.556 --> 0:11:21.836 Jesus didn't come back. I got left back. So I 0:11:21.916 --> 0:11:26.436 had to fight back and and I said, God, I'm 0:11:26.476 --> 0:11:31.236 not going to teach that kind of theology because it 0:11:31.276 --> 0:11:35.476 doesn't inspire you. If you're going to church and you're 0:11:35.596 --> 0:11:39.956 hearing that any day now Jesus is going to come 0:11:39.956 --> 0:11:42.356 back and take us all the way, then why would 0:11:42.356 --> 0:11:46.476 you struggle with math and and algebra. So when I 0:11:46.556 --> 0:11:49.756 found out that I was being left back, then I 0:11:49.796 --> 0:11:53.756 begin to fight back and I and I just it 0:11:53.836 --> 0:11:57.116 came out in a lot of negative ways, and they 0:11:57.196 --> 0:11:59.836 just put me out of most of the schools on 0:11:59.876 --> 0:12:03.396 the South side of Chicago. But it wasn't until that 0:12:03.476 --> 0:12:07.036 lady told me that I would never amount to nothing 0:12:07.196 --> 0:12:11.076 and that's when the shock of that reality that I'm 0:12:11.116 --> 0:12:14.356 out here by myself hit me and that I'm gonna 0:12:14.396 --> 0:12:20.036 have to seek my own relationship with God. And I did. 0:12:20.396 --> 0:12:24.676 We'll call new thought theology. It's not about a God 0:12:24.716 --> 0:12:27.076 in the sky, It's about a God in your eye, 0:12:28.076 --> 0:12:30.876 just like I'm talking to you right now, I'm talking 0:12:30.916 --> 0:12:33.716 to God. Why not? Why do I say that? Because 0:12:33.996 --> 0:12:37.196 man is the only creature that God created, not living. 0:12:37.876 --> 0:12:39.996 So I teach people to do unto others, not as 0:12:39.996 --> 0:12:41.796 you would have others to do unto you, but do 0:12:41.876 --> 0:12:44.676 unto others that you would do unto God. Not all 0:12:44.716 --> 0:12:47.316 living things have the presence and the energy of God 0:12:47.316 --> 0:12:50.796 in them, But the human beings are the represent tours 0:12:51.236 --> 0:12:53.956 of God. See, every time I get a chance to 0:12:54.076 --> 0:12:58.276 meet another human being, that's my chance to represent God 0:12:58.356 --> 0:13:00.756 to them. And that's why I have to treat you 0:13:00.796 --> 0:13:04.516 like you are a celebrity, even if I don't know 0:13:04.596 --> 0:13:08.436 your name. So if man and woman are representurs of God, 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:13.196 that's right. Is music with music, with art with dance, 0:13:13.876 --> 0:13:18.036 They're all kinds of ways. And the beautiful part about 0:13:18.116 --> 0:13:22.836 life is God does not discriminate on who that breath, 0:13:23.236 --> 0:13:28.756 that creative breath of God is bequeathed too. That's why 0:13:28.796 --> 0:13:33.036 in our church we don't judge anyone now anything that 0:13:33.156 --> 0:13:36.276 is perverse, yes, but we do not sit in the 0:13:36.436 --> 0:13:42.116 seat of judgment against anyone. I like that. We'll be 0:13:42.196 --> 0:13:44.596 right back with more from Pastor til Barrett. After a 0:13:44.676 --> 0:13:52.076 quick break, we're back with Pastor til Barrett to take 0:13:52.076 --> 0:13:54.716 it back to childhood and music. Yeah, what were you 0:13:54.756 --> 0:13:58.196 listening to? I mean, you're growing up in two hotbeds 0:13:58.236 --> 0:14:03.236 of just beautiful Black American music between New York City 0:14:03.356 --> 0:14:06.356 and Chicago and the forties, fifties and sixties. What are 0:14:06.356 --> 0:14:09.956 you taking in? Man? My father was a guitar player 0:14:10.236 --> 0:14:13.196 and he had a group called the Southern Wonders, a 0:14:13.276 --> 0:14:16.716 gospel singing group, and then he formed us once he 0:14:16.796 --> 0:14:19.596 had us, my brother and my sister myself into a 0:14:19.636 --> 0:14:23.356 group of singers called the Barrett Singers. So we grew 0:14:23.436 --> 0:14:26.716 up listening to and you won't know anything about these 0:14:26.756 --> 0:14:30.196 groups like the Swan Silver Tones. Come on, that's where 0:14:30.196 --> 0:14:34.316 Bridge Over Trouble of Water comes from. Okay, do you remember, Yeah, 0:14:34.356 --> 0:14:39.236 Sam Cook and the Soul Stirs. We grew up listening 0:14:39.316 --> 0:14:43.396 to them. We would travel the circuit with pop Staples 0:14:43.956 --> 0:14:47.196 and the Staples singers. Wow. Yeah, Mavis and I and 0:14:47.276 --> 0:14:49.676 the Staples we were We were very tight when you 0:14:49.716 --> 0:14:52.596 were a kid. Yeah, Pop. Staples and my father were 0:14:52.716 --> 0:14:55.916 very close, and the Staples and the Barrats. Whatever you 0:14:55.956 --> 0:14:58.916 saw the Staples singers, you usually saw the Barretts singers 0:14:59.116 --> 0:15:02.876 until they went totally pop. Then they took off like rockets. 0:15:03.036 --> 0:15:06.876 My father stayed with the church and that genre, so 0:15:07.196 --> 0:15:11.316 I was inspired by that music but also had an 0:15:11.356 --> 0:15:19.076 ear for jazz. I became a jazz pianist. I got 0:15:19.116 --> 0:15:23.036 a gig at the Waldorf Astoria when I was seventeen 0:15:23.116 --> 0:15:26.796 years old. I would play every New Year's Eve. There 0:15:26.876 --> 0:15:29.516 was this group that would hire me to play. I 0:15:29.596 --> 0:15:33.316 was mixing the two, preaching the gospel and you know, 0:15:33.516 --> 0:15:37.116 trying to play jazz music at the same time. And 0:15:37.156 --> 0:15:40.076 it wasn't until I became a pastor that I was 0:15:40.116 --> 0:15:44.956 able to merge the two. And my favorite pianist was 0:15:45.156 --> 0:15:48.636 Eryl Ghanner. I didn't know about Errol Ghanner, but people 0:15:48.676 --> 0:15:51.756 would tell me, said, you remind me of erl Ghanner 0:15:51.836 --> 0:15:54.116 with a syncopated left hand. Well, first of all, I 0:15:54.116 --> 0:15:58.836 didn't know what syncopatient was. I thought I said, there's 0:15:58.916 --> 0:16:02.556 nothing wrong with my hand. That said old. I thought 0:16:02.556 --> 0:16:04.716 they were saying I had a crippled hand or something, 0:16:04.916 --> 0:16:07.796 but it was the rhythmic pattern that he would keep 0:16:07.956 --> 0:16:10.116 with his left hand. I know one of my albums, 0:16:10.156 --> 0:16:11.956 I think it's like a ship. I do a piano 0:16:12.076 --> 0:16:16.236 solo that's call Blessed Quietness and it's kind of a 0:16:16.236 --> 0:16:22.436 parent there. So, Oscar Peterson, Errol Garner very very strong 0:16:22.556 --> 0:16:25.716 influences on my music. Can you can you show us 0:16:25.756 --> 0:16:29.156 what it means to play like Karma like Errol Garner? Okay, 0:16:29.876 --> 0:16:31.396 there was a song you used to play. It's an 0:16:31.396 --> 0:16:34.556 old song called what are you gonna do? You're undecided? 0:16:34.596 --> 0:18:10.316 Now what are you gonna do? Here? Got don who? 0:18:10.716 --> 0:18:12.876 And what's going on that left hand? What's like? What? What? 0:18:12.876 --> 0:18:15.916 What is uh? Is that? I don't know? That's I mean, 0:18:15.916 --> 0:18:19.796 it just came. That's where I started playing, and they 0:18:19.836 --> 0:18:22.196 told me that that was erl Donna stun. Then I 0:18:22.236 --> 0:18:25.996 started listening to him. That's it. I don't know how 0:18:26.756 --> 0:18:28.596 so is that what should be playing at the Waldorf 0:18:28.676 --> 0:18:32.796 Historia as well? That sort of thing? Yeah, well, it 0:18:32.916 --> 0:18:35.876 was all secular music at the wall doorf because you know, 0:18:36.076 --> 0:18:39.236 people celebrating the New Year's Eve, and they wanted to 0:18:39.316 --> 0:18:51.716 hear things like, look at me as a kitten clinging 0:18:51.876 --> 0:19:03.116 to apply. I can't understand. I get misty, holding your hand? 0:19:08.156 --> 0:19:21.596 WHOA my word? And then violins begin to play. Might 0:19:21.716 --> 0:19:29.436 be the sound of yar hello this mute ar? I 0:19:29.636 --> 0:19:46.996 get misty. The more union you know, play songs like that, gorgeous, gorgeous? 0:19:47.876 --> 0:19:52.916 How did you start playing piano? Jealousy. My brother had 0:19:52.996 --> 0:19:57.876 a godmother named Honey Wade, and she loved my brother 0:19:57.996 --> 0:20:00.996 so much because he was a pretty boy. They called 0:20:01.036 --> 0:20:04.956 him pretty boy George, and she sent him to music school. 0:20:05.836 --> 0:20:08.956 But I wasn't very attractive, so nobody would send me 0:20:09.196 --> 0:20:11.996 music school. My mother and father couldn't afford to. So 0:20:12.836 --> 0:20:16.076 I would try to mimic my brother, and I would 0:20:16.076 --> 0:20:18.796 try to play the piano. I couldn't make any harmony, 0:20:19.196 --> 0:20:22.956 just mashing the key, and you couldn't tell me I 0:20:23.036 --> 0:20:32.916 wasn't jamming and I had rhythm, and that's how it 0:20:32.956 --> 0:20:41.636 would sound. So my brother got tired of that and 0:20:41.796 --> 0:20:44.036 he said, Junior. He called me Junior. He said, look, 0:20:44.076 --> 0:20:45.996 if you want to make harmonies, so you're not making 0:20:46.036 --> 0:20:48.476 any harmony. So if you want to make harmony, you 0:20:48.556 --> 0:20:53.556 gotta spread your fingers out and leave a space in between. 0:20:54.836 --> 0:20:58.036 Then I heard the harmony. And when I heard the harmony, 0:20:58.156 --> 0:21:01.596 then I put the rhythm to it. That's how it 0:21:01.676 --> 0:22:17.076 came out. Oh man, We'll be right back in a 0:22:17.156 --> 0:22:24.516 moment with more of my conversation with Pastor Tlberrett. We're 0:22:24.556 --> 0:22:27.676 back with the rest of my conversation with Pastor Tlbert. 0:22:28.476 --> 0:22:32.756 Is it true you have a distant relation to Reverend cl. 0:22:32.836 --> 0:22:37.916 Franklin and Areta Franklin. Yes. My daddy told me that 0:22:38.076 --> 0:22:41.596 he and Reverend Franklin were cousins, and he told me, 0:22:41.676 --> 0:22:43.676 he said that if you ever get a chance to 0:22:43.836 --> 0:22:49.356 meet him, mentioned my name. And so one day I 0:22:49.516 --> 0:22:53.876 was traveling with either Anez Andrews or the Caravans was 0:22:53.956 --> 0:22:56.756 one of those groups I was traveling with, and they 0:22:56.836 --> 0:22:59.036 were on the same program with Reverend C. L. Franklin 0:22:59.196 --> 0:23:03.436 in Brooklyn, New York. So after the performances were over, 0:23:04.156 --> 0:23:07.196 I got a chance to go up to him. I said, 0:23:07.236 --> 0:23:10.836 Reverend Franklin, I'm TL Barrett from Chicago. And my father 0:23:10.996 --> 0:23:13.396 told me that if I ever met you, to tell 0:23:13.476 --> 0:23:17.196 you that he is Tom Barrett. He said, Tom Barrett 0:23:17.956 --> 0:23:20.476 and he said the town from Mississippi. He said, yeah, 0:23:20.956 --> 0:23:23.996 he said, asked my cousin man, I said, well, I'm 0:23:24.116 --> 0:23:30.436 his son. He embraced me, invited me to come to 0:23:30.636 --> 0:23:35.436 Detroit and preach at his church. I invited him to 0:23:35.516 --> 0:23:39.276 come and preach at my church in Chicago, and he came, 0:23:40.156 --> 0:23:43.036 and I went to Detroit and preach at his church, 0:23:43.996 --> 0:23:47.996 and he loved me so much. His mother jumped on 0:23:48.156 --> 0:23:51.996 my back while I was preaching. She was so she 0:23:52.196 --> 0:23:55.396 was full of the Holy Spirit, and we were about 0:23:55.436 --> 0:24:01.556 to establish a tremendous family relationship. He was going to 0:24:01.836 --> 0:24:06.116 bring me into meeting with Rita. But shortly after I 0:24:06.196 --> 0:24:08.716 pre sat his church, there was a break in at 0:24:08.756 --> 0:24:13.076 his house and he was shot, and he stayed in 0:24:13.156 --> 0:24:16.316 a coma for six or eight months and never recovered. 0:24:16.956 --> 0:24:19.596 So I never was able to make that wreck connection 0:24:20.476 --> 0:24:23.956 with me and Aretha. She had heard about me, but 0:24:24.156 --> 0:24:27.356 you know, she traveled so much that we never got 0:24:27.436 --> 0:24:30.636 a chance to connect. She was a wreath by that point, right, Oh, yeah, 0:24:30.796 --> 0:24:33.756 she was. She was a wreathing. What was the gospel 0:24:33.836 --> 0:24:37.276 circuit like at that time? It seems like the sixties 0:24:37.436 --> 0:24:41.116 was a very wonderful time for gospel music. There was 0:24:41.156 --> 0:24:44.956 a lot going on, very colorful time. I'm curious what 0:24:45.676 --> 0:24:48.236 that gospel circuit was like in the sixties. I didn't 0:24:48.236 --> 0:24:52.996 start making records until the mid seventies, but I was 0:24:53.116 --> 0:24:57.716 privileged to be with some of the gospel singers who 0:24:57.756 --> 0:25:02.596 were arcing at that time, such as James Cleveland and 0:25:02.756 --> 0:25:07.356 as Andrews Albertina Walker. So I was able to be 0:25:07.476 --> 0:25:13.876 around them, but I wasn't really part of that because 0:25:13.876 --> 0:25:16.356 I was just a young teenager. Then by the time 0:25:16.396 --> 0:25:19.236 you start making records in the seventies, is the goal 0:25:19.476 --> 0:25:24.436 only to make music for your congregation and congregations you 0:25:24.556 --> 0:25:27.316 might visit, or is the goal to bring the music 0:25:27.396 --> 0:25:30.396 toe a larger audience? Or I mean, is it is 0:25:30.436 --> 0:25:33.356 the goal musical? Is the goal religious in nature? Or 0:25:33.436 --> 0:25:39.196 spiritual in nature? The goal was to bring to fruition 0:25:39.316 --> 0:25:43.876 the promise that I made to those young people. I 0:25:44.076 --> 0:25:47.756 told them that you could become famous, some of you 0:25:47.876 --> 0:25:51.596 can become superstars, and you don't have to live within 0:25:51.796 --> 0:25:57.076 the strictors and the throes of the drug culture. You 0:25:57.196 --> 0:26:01.156 can be the representatus of God and still make it 0:26:01.316 --> 0:26:04.396 in that life. And we have some who who have 0:26:04.876 --> 0:26:07.796 been able to do that. So the goal wasn't necessarily 0:26:07.956 --> 0:26:12.516 only just to make us for the congregation. No, no, 0:26:12.796 --> 0:26:17.356 you're okay with success in the music business, larger music business. 0:26:17.436 --> 0:26:22.516 That was okay with you. And I'm just so grateful 0:26:23.196 --> 0:26:26.116 to God that my music caught the ear of Rob 0:26:26.236 --> 0:26:32.676 Severe and Numero Uno, because just to see some of 0:26:32.716 --> 0:26:37.476 those young people that trusted me, for them to have 0:26:37.756 --> 0:26:41.196 their children and their grandchildren sit down and listen to 0:26:41.516 --> 0:26:46.196 recordings that they were children singing on, It's just an 0:26:46.236 --> 0:26:50.996 awesome reward for me because I told them that this 0:26:51.196 --> 0:26:54.356 day would happen. I just didn't know when or how, 0:26:55.276 --> 0:26:58.276 but it is actually happening for people who don't know. 0:26:58.996 --> 0:27:02.956 You know, your records became very popular after they got 0:27:03.036 --> 0:27:06.396 re released much later in time. You never DIBt of 0:27:06.436 --> 0:27:10.676 the songs, your talent never. Wow, how did it feel 0:27:10.716 --> 0:27:14.556 all those years later? I mean forty years later, Numeral 0:27:14.636 --> 0:27:18.156 Group hit you up to rerelease your records, and you know, 0:27:18.276 --> 0:27:22.116 people start rediscovering your music from forty years ago. When 0:27:22.156 --> 0:27:25.876 when did you first learn that people were finally picking 0:27:25.956 --> 0:27:29.116 up on your records. I think it was when I 0:27:29.276 --> 0:27:33.596 received a call from Rob Severa. That's when I really 0:27:33.716 --> 0:27:37.476 realized that. And then they said, we want to do 0:27:37.636 --> 0:27:41.556 something with your music. I said, wow, They said, but 0:27:41.716 --> 0:27:44.636 we need to have you on the contract. So I 0:27:44.716 --> 0:27:47.916 think I signed a contract for one song. Then it 0:27:48.036 --> 0:27:51.556 became another album. Then I think I became just their artist. 0:27:52.116 --> 0:27:54.076 It seems like all those years ago you knew to 0:27:54.196 --> 0:27:56.716 have faith in your music, but it still must have 0:27:56.756 --> 0:27:59.516 been surprising, just out of the blue one day you 0:27:59.556 --> 0:28:03.076 get in this call no No. I have a theology 0:28:03.196 --> 0:28:11.076 philosophy that says true believers cannot be surprised. You live 0:28:11.316 --> 0:28:17.396 in expectation instead of agitation. Every time the phone rings, 0:28:17.676 --> 0:28:20.476 you're thinking, oh, this is the one. But just living 0:28:20.476 --> 0:28:23.636 in that amount of expectation and believe, is that ever disappointing? 0:28:24.196 --> 0:28:28.396 Of course it's disappointing man forty years believing something for 0:28:28.556 --> 0:28:32.356 forty years, of course it can be disappointing. But if 0:28:32.396 --> 0:28:35.956 you are a true believer, you keep believing. But see, 0:28:36.476 --> 0:28:39.916 the Bible says faith of that works is dead. So 0:28:40.076 --> 0:28:43.276 I teach our people pray like you believe it depends 0:28:43.276 --> 0:28:45.756 on God, but work like you believe it depends on you. 0:28:46.036 --> 0:28:49.596 That's how you get it to work. Because life is 0:28:49.636 --> 0:28:53.836 a joint investment adventure between you and God. Given your 0:28:53.836 --> 0:28:58.236 connections to people like Philip Bailey, Verdine White, Maurice White. 0:28:58.996 --> 0:29:00.956 You mentioned that Donny Hathaway. At some point it come 0:29:01.196 --> 0:29:04.996 through your congregation. You're in Chicago, you know where all 0:29:05.036 --> 0:29:08.436 this great R and B is happening. Did you ever think, well, 0:29:08.476 --> 0:29:11.916 maybe I won't make gospel music, maybe I'll make R 0:29:11.996 --> 0:29:17.636 and B. No, because I did not segregate or label 0:29:18.116 --> 0:29:22.116 my music. I just made music. I mean God's music. 0:29:23.596 --> 0:29:28.596 God's music is gospel, God's music is secular. Just like 0:29:28.716 --> 0:29:32.596 I wrote a song that says it goes like this, Oh, 0:29:32.716 --> 0:29:35.676 I want to be in love with you. Oh, I 0:29:35.756 --> 0:29:38.876 want to be in love with you. Oh I want 0:29:38.916 --> 0:29:41.076 to be in love with you. That's what the Lord 0:29:41.276 --> 0:29:44.516 said to me. Oh, I want to take you by 0:29:44.636 --> 0:29:48.436 your hand while you're living in this evil ladin. All 0:29:48.556 --> 0:29:52.836 you need to do is trust me. Now, that same 0:29:52.956 --> 0:29:59.076 song can be transposed into that's what my man said 0:29:59.156 --> 0:30:01.636 to me, or that's what my lady said to me. 0:30:01.716 --> 0:30:03.316 I want to be in love with you. It's the 0:30:03.396 --> 0:30:07.876 same message I said it long time ago. That's another 0:30:07.916 --> 0:30:10.876 song that I wrote. I said it a long time ago, 0:30:12.356 --> 0:30:16.276 said a long time ago, I love you. So now 0:30:16.556 --> 0:30:20.236 now that can be sung in a nightclub, or it 0:30:20.276 --> 0:30:22.836 can be sung in church. Because God did say a 0:30:22.916 --> 0:30:26.636 long time ago, I love you. I told my wife 0:30:26.916 --> 0:30:29.276 fifty six years ago. We've been married fifty three years. 0:30:29.716 --> 0:30:32.556 I sing that to her. I said it a long 0:30:32.636 --> 0:30:35.356 time ago. Then there's a part in the song saying 0:30:35.556 --> 0:30:40.036 and I am saying the same thing today, the same 0:30:40.076 --> 0:30:41.836 thing I said a long time ago. I'm saying the 0:30:41.876 --> 0:30:45.196 same thing today that I'll still make a way. It's 0:30:45.276 --> 0:30:50.236 not gospel, it's not secular. It's just music. It's God's music. 0:30:50.876 --> 0:30:54.356 That's one reason when my broadcast was so popular, because 0:30:55.396 --> 0:30:58.916 I played Earth Winding Fire on my gospel program. The 0:30:59.076 --> 0:31:03.236 music is very spiritual. Yes, I played keep your Head 0:31:03.316 --> 0:31:07.116 to the Sky. I played you a shining star. No 0:31:07.276 --> 0:31:11.556