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Speaker 1: Trust Me? Do you trust me?

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Speaker 2: I ever lead you astray?

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Speaker 1: Trust This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 3: welcome to trust Me. The podcast about colts, extreme belief

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Speaker 3: and manipulation from two trustees who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 1: I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elisabeth and.

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Speaker 3: This week my mom, doctor Christine Marie and this podcast's

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Speaker 3: very first guest, years Ago, comes back on the show

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Speaker 3: to talk about how she moved to the FLDS town

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Speaker 3: Short Creek, how she and my stepdad Tolga, earned the

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Speaker 3: trust of the new self proclaimed polygamist prophet in town,

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Speaker 3: Sam Bateman, And she'll tell us what else was going

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Speaker 3: on behind the scenes in the town besides what you

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Speaker 3: can see in the Netflix docuseries Trust Me, the False Prophet.

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Speaker 3: No correlation except also kind of because she's my mom

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Speaker 3: and my song, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: She'll tell us about her frustrations with the speed of

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Speaker 4: the case, what it was like going undercover with the FBI,

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Speaker 4: the bravery of all of the women involved, and being

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Speaker 4: there for the raid that finally landed Sam Bateman in

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Speaker 4: prison for sexual abuse and probably some other charges.

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Speaker 3: I haven't been following, but I know there's some court

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Speaker 3: stuff going on all that and more so so soon,

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Speaker 3: so excited to have my mama back and to hear

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Speaker 3: about the crazy fucking shit she's been doing since her

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Speaker 3: last appearance on this podcast, Megan, before we jump in

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Speaker 3: with Mom, what's your cultiest thing.

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Speaker 1: Of the week.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So, there is a sect out of Hawaii called

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Speaker 4: the Science of Identity Foundation or SIF that I've never

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Speaker 4: really heard of, but it's making news right now.

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Speaker 1: It's run by.

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Speaker 4: This guy named Chris Butler, who everybody says controls the members' lives,

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Speaker 4: completely isolates them, has a ton of control over them.

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Speaker 4: And our former Director of National Intelligence, Tulci Gabbard has

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Speaker 4: apparently been a member her whole life, and so is

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Speaker 4: her family. And there's a Washington Post article titled Tulci Gabbard,

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Speaker 4: Her Guru and the Mysterious Messages that help shape her

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Speaker 4: political career. The article is written by John Swain, and

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Speaker 4: it's kind of a leak of all these memos of

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Speaker 4: the group telling her how to vote, also literally what

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Speaker 4: to say.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there are some instances of basically verbatim.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's just another example of what we've been

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Speaker 4: talking about for so long, which is a lot of

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Speaker 4: these groups pushing their members into the political sphere because

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Speaker 4: they want more control. So she has resigned. But worth

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Speaker 4: noting never had heard of that group. Oddly I had

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Speaker 4: not either, but you know, there are endless cults. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I think the implications for this are are kind of

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Speaker 4: wild because she has had a very prominent and powerful

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Speaker 4: political career that has been sort of confusing. She's like

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Speaker 4: changed political sides and no one really understood why. But

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Speaker 4: then apparently that, like if you look back through some

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Speaker 4: of these directives that she seemed to have gotten from

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Speaker 4: the leader, that might be the reason she's one of

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Speaker 4: the people being has been anointed to like guide policy

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Speaker 4: that suits the group potentially indeed allegedly allegedly. Yeah, so

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna stay on top of the story. Everybody, don't

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Speaker 4: even worry about it. I'm I'm on the case.

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Speaker 1: Updates to Began's on the case. What about you? What's

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Speaker 1: your cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 3: I came across this article when I was looking up

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Speaker 3: I guess we're gonna have on soon, And I happened

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Speaker 3: upon an article called distinctive Language reveals likely conspiracy community

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Speaker 3: users across five hundred million Reddit comments. This is on

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Speaker 3: phizz or phys dot org by Polytechnic University of Milan,

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Speaker 3: So anyway, basically, the article is talking about a study

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Speaker 3: that came out recently in which these researchers used psycholinguistic

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Speaker 3: analysis tools and AI models on five hundred million comments.

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Speaker 3: Their goal was to find out whether it was possible

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Speaker 3: to kind of identify users that were going to become

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Speaker 3: active in the conspiracy parts of Reddit using only their

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Speaker 3: language in mainstream contexts, and the results of this showed

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Speaker 3: they were using recognizable language with an average accuracy of

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Speaker 3: eighty seven percent, even years before they explicitly joined conspiracy

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Speaker 3: theory communities, which I thought was really interesting. It's not

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Speaker 3: that they're all using the same language. It's like community

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Speaker 3: by community the language changes slightly, but there are this

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Speaker 3: part I thought was maybe the most interesting. Among the

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Speaker 3: most recurring linguistic elements are a greater presence of anger, anxiety,

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Speaker 3: and references to conflict, illness, and death, as well as

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Speaker 3: more frequent use of aggressive or emotionally charged language. So

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Speaker 3: the people posting a lot about these sort of high

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Speaker 3: stress things and feelings and events using particular language, like

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Speaker 3: it was able to predict with a very accurate rate

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Speaker 3: whether they would ultimately go on to become conspiracy theorists. Well,

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Speaker 3: it's super super interesting to me. I mean, conspiracy theorists

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Speaker 3: is so broad.

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Speaker 4: Now, I feel like since so many conspiracies are like,

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Speaker 4: oh that was kind of real, what exactly.

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Speaker 3: Like they would participate in like conspiracy parts of Reddit

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Speaker 3: that were known to be sort of extremist, ah, not

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Speaker 3: rooted in science basically, like we're talking lizard literal lizard people. Uh,

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Speaker 3: you know, all of this sort of classic go to conspiracies,

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Speaker 3: people who use this particular identifiable language ended up in

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Speaker 3: those parts of the Internet, which to me is super fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't wait to read more about that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just you.

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Speaker 3: Know, I would hope that one day we would be

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Speaker 3: able to identify if somebody is like in a period

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Speaker 3: of their life where they are having stress and you know,

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Speaker 3: potentially like I don't know, maybe it's too minority report

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Speaker 3: to stopian but intervened, so you know, yeah, but that's

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Speaker 3: probably not possible anyway. Things to moll over, But now

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Speaker 3: I think we should probably moll over my mom's incredible

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Speaker 3: story and this work that she has been doing in

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Speaker 3: Short Creek. Uh here, welcome mom, Hi, welcome back six

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Speaker 3: years later to trust Me. Our first guest ever, Christine

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Speaker 3: Marie is back. She's back, and she's got a whole

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Speaker 3: new story to tell, that's for sure.

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Speaker 1: For sure. Thank you for coming back, Mama, my pleasure.

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Speaker 3: So for those who have not seen it yet, you

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Speaker 3: are here because the Netflix docuseries called trust Me the

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Speaker 3: False Prophet.

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Speaker 1: The False Prophet, Yes, oh okay.

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Speaker 3: The False Prophet centers around the work that you did

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Speaker 3: in this polygamous community in southern Utah and the border

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Speaker 3: town of Short Creek, and so last people heard from

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Speaker 3: you on this podcast, you walked us through the cult

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Speaker 3: leader that we both believed in the self proclaimed prophet

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Speaker 3: and how he separated us and the harrowing stuff that

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Speaker 3: you went through when you are on your own. And

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Speaker 3: people can go back and listen to that episode if

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Speaker 3: they are interested. But we're going to cut to the

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Speaker 3: part where you moved to Short Creek and can you

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Speaker 3: talk about why you first moved to Short Creek.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So, Tolga, my husband and we were living in

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Speaker 1: Las Vegas and I wanted to be helpful to people

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Speaker 1: who had gone through something similar to me. So I

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Speaker 1: was doing activism and advocacy anyway for survivors of human

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Speaker 1: trafficking and survivors of polygamist cults and so on.

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Speaker 3: Because like there were there were some young women who

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Speaker 3: had come to stay with you in Vegas coming out

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Speaker 3: of different cults, and so you guys had kind of

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Speaker 3: been involved in this work already.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was a pretty high profile anti polygamy activist

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Speaker 1: at that time. And after my personal experience that we

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Speaker 1: talked about on the first episode, I spent you know,

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Speaker 1: a good decade studying why my brain went offline, what

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Speaker 1: the hell happened to my critical thinking? And once I

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Speaker 1: understood that, I wanted to be able to turn that

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Speaker 1: knowledge into helping other people. So I had the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to move to this border town which is it's called

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Speaker 1: Short Creek. It's Hilldeo Utah, Colorado City, Arizona. It's the

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Speaker 1: hub of the FLDS, which are fundamental Mormons, and people

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Speaker 1: were starting to leave the church and I thought I

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Speaker 1: could help them understand what happened to them. So we

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Speaker 1: moved there.

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Speaker 3: And why did Even at the time, I was like,

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Speaker 3: you're moving where, Like, why why I actually moved there

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Speaker 3: as opposed to just.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you remember, I wanted a bigger house because

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Speaker 1: I wanted a house where I could take more people

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Speaker 1: in because my house was too swamp. And I had

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to buy Warren Jeff's mansion forty two bedrooms,

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Speaker 1: and I had to partner with somebody who had come

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Speaker 1: from the community. No, true, Oh my god, forty two bedrooms? Yes?

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Speaker 1: And how much was this going for? Three hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand? Oh my god? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Wait, but which house is the real house?

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Speaker 1: Oh? That house?

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Speaker 3: Okay, spoiler, she did not buy this house. But okay, continuo,

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Speaker 3: I was approved to buy.

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Speaker 1: You have to be approved to buy something, I see,

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Speaker 1: and so but I wanted it so that I could

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Speaker 1: have people come in and we could do like like

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Speaker 1: healing retreats and so on. Yes, so that's why I

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Speaker 1: had to move there. I thought, Okay, now I'll be

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Speaker 1: in the community so that when when we get the house,

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Speaker 1: I could be right here. They closed on my deal

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Speaker 1: without including me. You had a whole plan in place.

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Speaker 3: We like did some filming around some of what this

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Speaker 3: idea was, which was to like basically create what do

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Speaker 3: you call it, like a sanctuary for.

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Speaker 4: People coming out that's almost rehabbing exactly.

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Speaker 1: However, at the time, I didn't understand what was happening

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Speaker 1: in the town, and when it occurred to me that

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Speaker 1: if I wanted to be able to help the FLDS,

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Speaker 1: I could not buy their profit's house. They would see

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Speaker 1: that as desecrating it. So by that time I realized

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Speaker 1: I have to walk away and take the loss.

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Speaker 3: And I also want to clarify when we say mansion,

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Speaker 3: this is the like I kind of want to paint

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Speaker 3: a picture of what the town is because it's not

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Speaker 3: like a Beverly Hills mansion. These are like basic, kind

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Speaker 3: of ugly houses in the town. There's a lot of

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Speaker 3: these houses because they were meant to house these giant families.

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Speaker 1: Right, it's not that.

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Speaker 4: They're ugly, it's just that they're kind of like quickly

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Speaker 4: built so that as many children as possible.

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Speaker 1: Well, they're more it's more utilitarian. Mostly it's practical. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it was a big house with all these bedrooms.

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Speaker 1: It was actually more than one house on the property.

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Speaker 1: But you know, it's all good now. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: have a house that I have people in and it

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Speaker 1: all worked out for the best. But that's why I

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Speaker 1: moved there. Yeah, I wanted to help them, but I

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Speaker 1: needed to be there. I just felt it, And even

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Speaker 1: though that didn't work out, other things did and that's

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Speaker 1: how I started to make a difference.

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Speaker 3: And so you're there and you start to notice. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the documentary touches on this, but for those who haven't seen,

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Speaker 3: you start to notice that there's I'm think going on

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Speaker 3: with that housing there.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I wasn't a fan of FLDS people because I

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Speaker 1: was very antipolygamy, so I assume that whenever they complained

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Speaker 1: about something that they were just playing the victim. But

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Speaker 1: when I saw with my own eyes that people were

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Speaker 1: being evicted from homes with the Texas fully paid that

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Speaker 1: had no mortgage, that seemed like a violation of civil

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Speaker 1: rights to me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember you talking about this the first time

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Speaker 4: you were on that These people in the town, they

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Speaker 4: had their homes, they owned them, they'd paid the mortgage,

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Speaker 4: they paid, they were up to date. But because they

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Speaker 4: were connected to this warn't Josh religion, they were being

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Speaker 4: kicked out of their homes that they owned, right.

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Speaker 1: It was because they needed to sign an occupancy agreement,

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Speaker 1: which is a legal thing you need to do, but

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Speaker 1: they thought it was a violation of their civil rights

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Speaker 1: because these homes were dedicated into this trust, a religious trust.

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Speaker 1: The state came took the religious purpose out of the

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Speaker 1: trust and said, now all of you got anybody can

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Speaker 1: get these homes. And in order for them to stay

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Speaker 1: in this home that they paid cash for and built,

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Speaker 1: they had to sign this paper that they felt was

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Speaker 1: a violation of their religion.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 4: So people are getting kicked out because they don't want

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Speaker 4: to sign this piece of paper and you're witnessing it,

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Speaker 4: and there's a lot of families that are losing shelter.

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Speaker 1: Right and I wanted to find a work around. Why

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Speaker 1: should they have to leave their home just because they

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Speaker 1: still believe in Warren Jeffs. I mean, housing stability is

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Speaker 1: something everybody should have, especially if you have children. So

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Speaker 1: then I did create a work around, and I became

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Speaker 1: an intermediary between the flds so I could sign things

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Speaker 1: or help create things to enable them to stay in

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Speaker 1: their homes where they weren't violating their religion. So this

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Speaker 1: helped me get a foundation to be trusted by a

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Speaker 1: number of FLDS people.

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Speaker 3: Know more. I mean, and tell me if you think

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Speaker 3: this is interesting, But I want to know more about

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Speaker 3: the anti polygamy activism turn and like what you know,

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Speaker 3: what you were so against initially and why it flipped.

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Speaker 1: I assumed that my experience with my false prophet where

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Speaker 1: I actually had sort of pseudo sister wives, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: I thought these other women were designated to be my

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Speaker 1: sister wives. He sent me this email revelation thing about

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Speaker 1: how we would be, you know, a family in heaven

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Speaker 1: or something like that, although there was no ceremony or anything.

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Speaker 1: So I had this mindset that this woman's my future

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Speaker 1: sister wife. So I treated or liked my sister wife

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Speaker 1: and so on, even though we didn't live in the

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Speaker 1: same home. So when I got out of this experience,

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Speaker 1: I was really essentially rescued from this by one of

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Speaker 1: the accomplices, which I talked about earlier. So when that

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Speaker 1: happened and I started recovering, I started really deep diving

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Speaker 1: into how did I lose my critical thinking? How did

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Speaker 1: I believe any of this nonsense? How did I become Truman?

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Speaker 1: In the Truman Show where everybody around me was observing

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Speaker 1: reality and I was living in this fictional world and

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Speaker 1: everybody knew except me, and they allowed it, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I was just mind fucked. Can I say that? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so you were yeah, yeah, it was rough. So

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Speaker 1: I thought that the answer was in the manipulation caused

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Speaker 1: by polygamy. I thought that's why it happened to me.

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Speaker 1: Even though I wasn't technically in polygamy.

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Speaker 2: My mind was, yeah, you were spiritually yes, yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: and so and I will say, like most of us

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Speaker 2: probably only have experience of polygamy from Sister Wives and

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Speaker 2: Cody Brown.

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Speaker 1: You watch, yes, I haven't watched. Okay, so not.

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Speaker 4: The best reputation from the Brown family because you know,

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Speaker 4: he ends up marrying a very younger wife and then

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Speaker 4: all the rest of the wives get left behind essentially

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Speaker 4: and stolen from and there's not a lawsuit. So anyway,

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Speaker 4: when you say Sister Wives, my alarm bulls go off,

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Speaker 4: and you obviously were like, oh, this might be bad,

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Speaker 4: but then you kind of realize it's not totally.

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Speaker 1: When I was an anti polygamy activist, I actually went

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Speaker 1: on the Sister Wife show and debated the Brown family

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Speaker 1: and I was food yes at UNLV and I was

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Speaker 1: just vehemently against polygamy, and I had all these great reasons,

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Speaker 1: and what I really meant was coercive polygamy. I was

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Speaker 1: never against polyamory, you know, anything that's just people making

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Speaker 1: choices and not hurting anybody. That's really not what I

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Speaker 1: care about. But it was really the coersion, right, and

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Speaker 1: holding eternal salvation over somebody's head like that. And so

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Speaker 1: but when I was in the town, I got to

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Speaker 1: know some people who were living polygamy that have left

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Speaker 1: the fl FLDS church and that were in the FLDS church,

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Speaker 1: and they all they were all saying the same things.

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Speaker 1: I realize, even if I am against polygamy, which personally

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Speaker 1: I am, religiously coerced polygamy, Yes, I'm against that. But

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Speaker 1: I realized that I'm really not doing any good sitting

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Speaker 1: on my couch, being a couch warrior, screaming against polygamists,

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Speaker 1: attacking them and changing nothing, right, right, yeah right, you know,

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Speaker 1: And I'm not convincing them to leave it. I'm not

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Speaker 1: making a difference. I'm not helping them with their trauma.

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Speaker 1: And it just hit me I need to just stop

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Speaker 1: judging and start helping. And that is my stance. It's

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Speaker 1: not whether I believe in polygamy or not. It's just

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Speaker 1: that I put down my weapons of war and I

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Speaker 1: realized you cannot change minds.

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Speaker 2: With facts and at texts. Amen Clocket put that in

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Speaker 2: bold and under guys.

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Speaker 3: But that's such a like that lesson is so applicable

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Speaker 3: to everything in our world right now. Yes, it's true,

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Speaker 3: there's so many people who are so angry about so

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Speaker 3: many things, often justifiably, But sitting and being angry at

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Speaker 3: people online is like not what it really just chees nothing.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's an epidemic. I mean even right now after

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Speaker 1: the documentary, which it just had an incredible worldwide positive response.

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Speaker 1: My former anti polygamy associates were so angry with me

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Speaker 1: when I stopped being anti polygamy and just started being

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Speaker 1: friends with people living polygamy that they started labeling me

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Speaker 1: pro polygamy, which is bullshit, and enabling child's sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: which is bullshit. And they could not see the facts.

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Speaker 1: So our brains are weird in the same way I

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Speaker 1: could not see the facts when I was involved with

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Speaker 1: my profit. They cannot see the facts when it comes

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Speaker 1: to something that they are emotionally invested in. None of

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Speaker 1: just can just like politics, yeah, yeah, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, once we've made up my mind, my mind, once

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Speaker 3: we've made up my mind, once we've made up our

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Speaker 3: minds who's good and who's bad, it's like, well, like

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Speaker 3: anything to maintain that cohesion in our worldview.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. It always surprises me how much we think we

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Speaker 4: are able to overcome that and ourselves and we're really.

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Speaker 3: Not, really not.

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Speaker 4: And you they are if we try, if we try,

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Speaker 4: But you said it perfectly. We're not wired too, It's

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Speaker 4: just not the way our brains are wired. So, whether

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Speaker 4: you're the smartest person in the world or Keith Ranieri,

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Speaker 4: whe they were Keith Ranieri Australia's Guinness Book of World

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Speaker 4: Record smartest man in the World because he made up

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Speaker 4: the questions for the test, or.

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Speaker 1: You know, the kindest person or the whatever.

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Speaker 4: Like, you just can't outdo your biology, which is that

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Speaker 4: we're humans and we think this way.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: We thought we are full of bias, chock full of it.

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Speaker 1: It's not that I became propolygamy. It's just that I

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Speaker 1: realized when I started actually talking to these people in

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Speaker 1: understanding the meaning that their lifestyle had to them contributed

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Speaker 1: some complexity to their decision making that, you know, judging

350
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Speaker 1: them for it wasn't going to help. Yeah, And so

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Speaker 1: I call this harm reduction. No matter where you are

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Speaker 1: on your journey, your spiritual journey, it's better to come

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Speaker 1: out of the other side less traumatized. Yeah. So, even

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Speaker 1: if I don't agree with anything, even if I can't

355
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Speaker 1: stand Cody Brown or his wives, or I mean just

356
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Speaker 1: bitching about him, isn't going to reduce the trauma against

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Speaker 1: them that they're experiencing from him or whatever. Yeah, can

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Speaker 1: you guys say that better?

359
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Speaker 4: Well, I relate a lot to what you're saying, because

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Speaker 4: a lot of people and the religion, the cult, the

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Speaker 4: whatever that I grew up in are very disappointed that

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Speaker 4: I still have a relationship with my family or with

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Speaker 4: people that continue to be a part of the truth

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Speaker 4: the way, the two by twos, whatever you want to

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Speaker 4: call it. And they think that those people should all

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Speaker 4: be cut off and that you know, I shouldn't speak

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Speaker 4: to them anymore, and blah blah, blah blah blah. But

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Speaker 4: I don't see any change coming from that whatsoever. So

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Speaker 4: I think it's just a conversation and decision that we

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Speaker 4: all have to make it's harmon duck.

371
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's ironic to expect that people should have

372
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Speaker 3: to cut people off because that's what the cults do.

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Speaker 3: That's called disconnection, and that's you know, called shunning. I

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Speaker 3: mean that's literally cult behavior. So why would we replicate

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Speaker 3: that in our exit from the group. That doesn't make

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Speaker 3: any sense.

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Speaker 1: And it doesn't make sense to cut people off if

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Speaker 1: you have even the slightest goal to help them someday.

379
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Speaker 1: I mean, it's coercion by you saying I'm only going

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Speaker 1: to have a relationship with you if you believe in

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Speaker 1: what I believe or if you walk the path I

382
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Speaker 1: want you to walk. Then it's like you're punishing them

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Speaker 1: by saying I'm not going to have a relationship with

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Speaker 1: you when you don't. So you're trying to, you know,

385
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Speaker 1: manipulate them with this, with this punishment, and I'm just

386
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Speaker 1: against all of that. Yeah, And you're doing the right thing.

387
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Speaker 1: That's right, And I learned from the best. I learned

388
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Speaker 1: from you.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you were one of the first people that

390
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 4: I spoke to that got through to me luckily about

391
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Speaker 4: all of the things that I am trying to do.

392
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Speaker 4: But I know you've gotten haters and hate for it,

393
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Speaker 4: which we won't go into because they don't deserve the space,

394
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Speaker 4: as we've talked about.

395
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Speaker 1: But you know, people don't.

396
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Speaker 4: People don't like it sometimes when you help people or

397
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Speaker 4: when you connect with people who are in abusive systems,

398
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Speaker 4: and because they think that's your stamp of approval on

399
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Speaker 4: the abusive system.

400
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Speaker 1: That's right, when it in fact, you may end up

401
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 1: being the only safe when they can come to in

402
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: their hour of need.

403
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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, absolutely, I mean we've said this in so so,

404
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 3: so so many episodes at this point, like every occult

405
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 3: expert says it, like the best way that you can

406
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 3: help is to stay connected and so that they have

407
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Speaker 3: some connection to the outside world, because otherwise they're just

408
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 3: stuck in their closed system and completely isolated and have

409
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 3: no evidence that there are people on the outside that

410
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Speaker 3: are nice, unlike what their leader is telling them about

411
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Speaker 3: how everyone's evil.

412
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Speaker 1: Yeah, but there is so much external pressure on us

413
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Speaker 1: outsiders for having these relationships with people who are stigmatized

414
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: because of their decisions. It takes a lot of courage

415
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: to stand up for somebody that the world hates, right, yeah,

416
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 1: or your or your relevant group hates. So for you

417
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: to maintain your relationship with your family while you're getting

418
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Speaker 1: hate for it. I respect that.

419
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Speaker 4: Thank you, you taught it to me. So it's a

420
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Speaker 4: circle of life.

421
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Speaker 3: So you're in this town, you start making friends with

422
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: people and you're like, why was I so angry when

423
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 3: I could, you know, treat people with dignity. And then

424
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 3: you sort of, you know, develop some trusts in this

425
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 3: town because you are helping get people online, get kids

426
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 3: schooling online, get people fed, get people's you know, resources

427
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 3: that they didn't have before.

428
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Speaker 1: And so how did Sam Bateman first come into the picture.

429
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: He was introduced to us by an FLDS woman who

430
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: was a friend of ours, and he came over with

431
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: his wife and children, and he bore his testimony, shared

432
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Speaker 1: his story and verbalized his testimony like it was a

433
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Speaker 1: sword from heaven and does it do your viewers know

434
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Speaker 1: what testimony means, his story, his story of why he believes,

435
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: and all this faith promoting stuff, and it was just

436
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,479
Speaker 1: a weapon. That's why we were like, Okay, so this

437
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: guy is really really zealous.

438
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 3: What do you mean? So basically he's like, I got

439
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 3: my faith from blah blah blah, and I feel the

440
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 3: fire of the Lord, like.

441
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: Let's know, he talked about how he went to every

442
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: day of the war in Jeff's trial and he saw

443
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: all the things, and even though he was tempted to

444
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: throw it all away, he had this spiritual experience and

445
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: it just made him stronger and so on.

446
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 3: Okay, but was he like charismaic and how No?

447
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 1: No, but he did recite a poem. So he recited

448
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: this long poem and he said that he wrote it

449
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: in one night, and Tokien and I were like, wow,

450
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: and were you really?

451
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 4: Yeah?

452
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: I mean the fact that he was and the fact

453
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: that even memorized it was amazing, Like, I haven't memorized

454
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 1: something that long in a while. Later, could I do

455
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,959
Speaker 1: a spoiler? Yes, Later we learned that he spent weeks

456
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: memorizing it and months writing it, and he forgot because

457
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: he forgot, he forgot what he told us originally, and

458
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: then he told us a whole different story later.

459
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that was really funny. A normal man

460
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 3: with a touch of poetry in him.

461
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: Yes, but that poetry was to be drawn upon it well,

462
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: depending on who he was talking to and which points

463
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,959
Speaker 1: he wanted to make. So it was like a little

464
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: tool that he could use a little manipulation tool in

465
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: his toolbox.

466
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 3: So he's trying to prove like, I'm really smart, yeah,

467
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 3: and then memorizing, Yeah.

468
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: Well he's sensitive. He's a poem, he's a poet. He's

469
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: an artist.

470
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, but that's the only artistic thing I ever saw.

471
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: And for all I know, he didn't even write the poem.

472
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 4: No, I'm sure he didn't write that. He did, my

473
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 4: guys wrote the poem. Yeah, somebody else wrote that poem.

474
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 4: But I mean, okay, it's just it's so weird to

475
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 4: see who he was and then who he became.

476
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: Okay, So his wife divorced him because because he made

477
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: a pass on his daughter. Oh my god, he offered

478
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 1: her fifty dollars to not tell her mom, and he

479
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: wanted to have a baby with her. Oh my god,

480
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: when she was talking, oh this animal. Yeah. So she

481
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: got home from that trip with him, told her mother immediately, good,

482
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: and the mother filed a protective order, filed for divorce,

483
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: and got her and the rest of their family out

484
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: of there. WHOA when was that? That was about twenty eighteen,

485
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: oh or maybe early twenty nineteen. Okay, okay, So then

486
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: said you know about any of that, I just knew

487
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: they were getting divorced. Oh, and then she got a

488
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: protective order. But his side of the story was different. Well,

489
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: he's a broken man now totally like I thought he

490
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: might kill himself, and he had no money, was just

491
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: a loser in every way, and now no wife. Then

492
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: he disappears and around twenty twenty one he reappears with

493
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: a wife. Looks very young, but she was over eighteen.

494
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: I think she was twenty. And because the FLDS aren't

495
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: doing marriages, they're very shunned. He and his young wife

496
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: are very shunned, and so I'm nice to them. I

497
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: don't see anything wrong. He just got a new wife.

498
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: So then he leaves again. He comes back with two

499
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: car loads of wives. Two car loads, two car loads

500
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: of wives. A car load yeah what the size car

501
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,719
Speaker 1: and two vs? So twelve maybe by that time it

502
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: was sixteen eighteen wives. I'm not sure.

503
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 4: And for people who haven't seen the Dock, please go

504
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 4: watch it because just seeing the people getting out of

505
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 4: the cars is one of the wildest experiences of my life.

506
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 4: Like somebody they'll just open a like suburban door and

507
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 4: it's like a like a I wanted to say circus

508
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 4: but that makes a clown car. It's like a clown car.

509
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 4: But that makes it sound nice and funny, but it's not.

510
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 4: But it's just like you're like twelve people come out

511
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 4: and you're like, well, that's as many people as could

512
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 4: possibly be in there.

513
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 3: But there's just more commented on it. I think in

514
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 3: the dock.

515
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's so many. Yeah.

516
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 3: So after how how long was it between him having

517
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 3: this one new wife and him having two car loads

518
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 3: of wife?

519
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: It was maybe I'm really iffy on that. So he

520
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: had one wife and then he came came back with

521
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: her sister, so he had two wives, all right, but

522
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: he had no money. I invited them to come with

523
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: Token I on a photography trip to this ghost town

524
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: that I love called Grafton. And he sent me a

525
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: text and it said if that involves any money, we

526
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: can't go because I am so absolutely broke that I

527
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: couldn't even afford gas. And you know, I wrote back

528
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: and said, I mean, you can ride in our car,

529
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: you don't need gas. But he's so broke you can't

530
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: afford gas, right, got you? Then he comes back with

531
00:30:53,680 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: two car loads yep of women, wow, and children that

532
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: I thought were just the children of the women, and

533
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: they were the children of the women. But he has

534
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: two nice cars, he's got nice clothes, he's got all

535
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: these wives. Sam who didn't have ten dollars to his name.

536
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: He was failing as a rebar estimator. You know what

537
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: that is? Now when you build a house, Yeah, they

538
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: have these wire things come up to put in the walls.

539
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: That's called rebar. His job was estimating rebar. So you

540
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: just buil there's some rebar. That's all you had to do.

541
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: You had to figure out how much rebar goes into

542
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: this construction. Okay, he couldn't even He wasn't even doing that.

543
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: He had no money. He tried being an insurance salesman

544
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: and he failed at that too, So he was a mess.

545
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: Now he's the king of the world. Where where did the.

546
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 3: Money come from?

547
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: Who the money came from? His ability to convert a

548
00:31:54,320 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: couple of very key and successful FLDS men to his group.

549
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: Because remember when Warren Jeffs went to prison in two

550
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: thousand and six, there were no more marriages because he

551
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: was the only one that could perform marriages. So no

552
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: marriages and no babies.

553
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,719
Speaker 4: So yeah, this community, that's whole purpose up to this

554
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 4: point had been babies.

555
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, marriage and babies. Right, So two thousand and six,

556
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: since two thousand and six when George Bush was president

557
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: and Saddam Hussein was still alive. Wow, that's how long

558
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: it's been. Wow. So now Warren Jeffs had not communicated

559
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: in quite a while. So the FILDS people didn't know

560
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: what to do. They had no direction. They're used to

561
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: being led. So Sam seizes vacuum and says, here's my chance.

562
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: So he elevated himself by saying, I am the messenger

563
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: for Warren Jeffs. He's not really in prison. He's been translated,

564
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: so he's immortal, and he's speaking to me, and we're

565
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: starting marriages again. And if you fell, I mean you

566
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: can have babies again too, which means sex. They weren't

567
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: allowed to have sex, that's right, that's right.

568
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: So so of course you'd want to believe that, like

569
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 3: girls would want to believe it because they want babies,

570
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: so or sex or sex depending, you know. But in

571
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 3: the FLDS, you don't have sex unless it's for the

572
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 3: purpose of having a baby, right, So at any rate,

573
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 3: well that's what they say anyway, Yeah, yeah, I'm not

574
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 3: in the bedroom today, ye.

575
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, So he had something that appealed to them.

576
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: He became an impostor so that he could play off,

577
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: or should I say, pray off the loyalty and the

578
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: love that they had for their profit. So he's now like,

579
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: if you loved and had loyalty to Warren Jeff's, I

580
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,959
Speaker 1: am the guy that's gonna give you his messages and

581
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: let you move forward with your life. So he got

582
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: a few key families, just a few. Most FLDS wanted

583
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: nothing to do with him. The ninety five percent of

584
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: FLDS didn't buy it, maybe even ninety nine percent. There

585
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,959
Speaker 1: was really only three big families that he was able

586
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: to recruit. But they had a lot of girls and

587
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: a lot of money.

588
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 3: And so can you just talk a little bit about

589
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 3: why and why those three families would believe him though,

590
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 3: like obviously there's incentive to but also culturally within this

591
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 3: like lineage of you know, lds, FLDS churches, like that

592
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 3: is how profits.

593
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 4: Are, oh right, I mean, if we take a brief

594
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 4: history lesson, Warren Jeffs was the son of the original prophet.

595
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: Was his name.

596
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 4: Ronan Rulin, Roland Rulin, Rulin. That should be Yeah, that's

597
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 4: a good name for a ruler. He was he was

598
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 4: the original prophet, and he was supposed to be immortal,

599
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 4: and then he died and Warren was like, just kidding,

600
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 4: I'm speaking for him now. So Warren already pulled off

601
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 4: this con well's a lot of a lot of people did.

602
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: I wouldn't call ruling an original profit because there was

603
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: a breakoff from the mainstream or matures in eighteen ninety

604
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: when they gave up polygamy and these people said, you know,

605
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 1: how can polygamy be required for eternal salvation? One week

606
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: you have to do this to be exalted, and then

607
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: the next week, for secular reasons they ban it. Well,

608
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: then how is that eternal?

609
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 3: Right?

610
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: So there was this big breakoff, and at the breakoff,

611
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 1: then there was a different hierarchy of profits that came down,

612
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 1: and that's how Short Creek ended up being a plural

613
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: community because it was like a place where people who

614
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: still believed in that could all be together. So there

615
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: are lots of profits a lot of the way.

616
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's lots of lineage, like after Brigham Young.

617
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 4: Is that so there has to be a prophet And

618
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 4: it leaves room for somebody to be like and that's me.

619
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 3: Yes, just like how all of them were. That's how

620
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 3: all of them were designated. They were like self designated basically, right,

621
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 3: that's like, that's how Joseph Smith was designated as a prophet.

622
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: Well, it depends on what you believe. But they that's

623
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: the mainstream LDS church. It's the oldest person in the hut.

624
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: You know, it's not just you declare yourself. It's the

625
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: next senior person. Yes, in the mainstream church now.

626
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 3: But yeah, the origins of the church are such that

627
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 3: generally people didn't see these visions that Joseph Smith was having.

628
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 3: He was having them on his own, and yeah, you know,

629
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 3: a person or too would out for him, and that

630
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 3: was who everybody believed.

631
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 1: This was the prophet.

632
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 3: So it's not weird within with that history, true, that

633
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 3: that which is the same thing with the prophet that

634
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 3: we believed in. I mean, it's not odd given the

635
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 3: history of what defines a prophet.

636
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, if it speaks for God, my friends,

637
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: if you want the real truth, you go to a

638
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: prophet because God speaks directly to him. And of course

639
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: I'm kidding, but that is what we believed. Yeah, and

640
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: many people believe so you don't have to do the thinking.

641
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: In fact, in the LDS Church, there's you know, a

642
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: website and on the website somewhere I found this article

643
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: on the Church approved Articles that says, you don't have

644
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: to think, we have done the thinking for you. Oh wow,

645
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: so that's what you know. That's how I was controlled

646
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: and manipulated. I thought, I'm going to trust the authorities.

647
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: Authority bias, and that's what they were looking for. The

648
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 1: people who ended up in the Samulite group wanted authority,

649
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: and I think the reason they had a vulnerability to

650
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: it is because when I think of the men that

651
00:37:54,239 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: he did recruit, they had been either sent away or

652
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: had committed adultery or something, which is the sin second

653
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: to murder. And Sam offered them forgiveness, right, and that

654
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: was a really big cookie. Yeah.

655
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 4: I would probably be like, oh, I can have a

656
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 4: community again and kids and a family, and all I

657
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 4: have to do is just kind of believe that this

658
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 4: guy might be right.

659
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 1: I could see myself leaning out to that totally. Yeah.

660
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 3: I mean like, yeah, not to get into how we

661
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 3: think again, but we like to believe we're making decisions

662
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 3: based on just like rational evidence. But the truth is

663
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 3: we choose our community based on incentives like that, whether

664
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 3: we're cognizant of it or not. So it makes sense.

665
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, if the most important thing in your life is

666
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: getting back to God and you've messed up.

667
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 3: Well, also community, I mean you've talked about written about

668
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: this in your research too, Like you lose your community

669
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 3: and the like, that's you know, a traumatizing experiences you

670
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 3: completely isolated and often suicidal, and some on a new

671
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 3: community is being offered. Like that's gonna seem like a

672
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 3: you know, a ray of hope from the Lord.

673
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:18,439
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so when Sam came around, and before him

674
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: Moroni Moroni was one of Sam's followers, but he might

675
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,720
Speaker 1: have set the thing in motion in a way because

676
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: he found some writings that talked about how you don't

677
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 1: have to wait for the prophet to tell you to

678
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: do anything, you can do it make your own decisions.

679
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 1: Now that was like heresy, right, but it was in

680
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: the historical church writings, and he called it self determination.

681
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: Got to get Sam called it, called it that. Now

682
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: we should be saying, good job, Morona, Yes you can

683
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: think for yourself. You want to have a baby, with

684
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: your wife, you do it. That's what happened when he

685
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: started that. Then some girls self determined that they wanted

686
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: to be married to Morone, and he had a couple

687
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: of babies, but there was no prophet involved sealing them.

688
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: So Sam jumped in on it and somehow did a

689
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: leapfrog over Marone. And then with Sam, Morone was never

690
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: calling himself a prophet. Sam did. And now with Sam

691
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:34,919
Speaker 1: being the prophet, now he took the wives that went

692
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 1: to Maroni, all the young, pretty wives but of age

693
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: at that point. Yes, yeah, and then started taking his

694
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 1: daughters and demanding them. It was and the same thing

695
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: with his other main believer.

696
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 3: Just for context for those who haven't seen the series,

697
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 3: MARONEI is one of the few men in the group

698
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 3: whose daughters were subjected. I mean he was involved in

699
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 3: the abuse, ye right, although Marona himself did not wasn't

700
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 3: with any underage people. He did not protect his children,

701
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 3: and when Sam demanded them as wives, he relinquished them.

702
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 3: So he's in prison for many years and.

703
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: He says, this is exactly where I need to be.

704
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: I deserve to be here. And he's the only one

705
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: of Sam's followers that has even expressed any accountability. So yeah,

706
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 1: he basically lost the rest of his life.

707
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: For Sam Bateman.

708
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 1: For Sam Bateman, of all people. Crazy, you can see

709
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: how it happened.

710
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 4: Like we said, you know, he wanted a community back

711
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 4: into a community, and it's very unfortunate that Sam Bateman

712
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 4: was the one who saw this opportunity to take everybody

713
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 4: down with him.

714
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when he went to court one time, when

715
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: all of his wives and the people involved in the

716
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 1: case had all be in the same courtroom at one time,

717
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: he had the opportunity to say at least about his

718
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: wives that committed crimes for him, They're not to blame.

719
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: I made them do it. It's me. Put it all

720
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: on me. But he didn't, you know, it was just

721
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: the coward that he always is and tried to act

722
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: as if he was innocent and didn't do anything to

723
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: make amends or try to lessen the impact of being

724
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 1: in prison on these young mothers. Right.

725
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know if the normal lay person can

726
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 4: really understand how much churches really demand that women obey

727
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 4: their husbands to a very real world.

728
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 3: Extent, fundamentalist ones in particular.

729
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:06,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in this case, if you did not follow

730
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: along with what Sam said, there was a real threat

731
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 1: that you might suffer physical harm and what does that mean.

732
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: So he was teaching this concept called blood atonement. When

733
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 1: Jesus died on the cross and had his blood spilled,

734
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: that was supposed to cover all the sins of the world.

735
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 1: Blood atonement is a fun amount of Mormon belief that

736
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: Jesus's sacrifice did not cover all the sins. There are

737
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: some things that you can do where you have to

738
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: spol your own blood. You have to die by this

739
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 1: shedding of your own blood so that you will then

740
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 1: go to the highest degree of heaven and you can

741
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: still have a natural family and all that. So he

742
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 1: was teaching blood atonement. It was portrayed as an act

743
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: of kindness, so in other.

744
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 4: Words, murder mm hmm, of like, you don't obey me,

745
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 4: you might have to do something, that's right, blood atonement

746
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 4: on yourself.

747
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't do yourself, but you submit to it

748
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: or or it will be put upon you. That is

749
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: so scary.

750
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 3: It's so scary.

751
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 1: Teaching it all the time.

752
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 3: And hasn't blood atonement been actually enacted in other fundamentalist

753
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 3: Mormon girl, Yes, it has. Yeah, there's not really a

754
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 3: history of it in the FLDS. But there's so many

755
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 3: fundamentalists Mormon offshoots that we.

756
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 2: Would never like a gun cross but like you're slitting

757
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 2: your throat or like the blood would happen.

758
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, but maybe the one group though there were it

759
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 3: was guns, It wasn't it, Yeah.

760
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: I believe So you mean little barons.

761
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 3: The little barons. Yeah, I think they were just using

762
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 3: it because I don't want the guy just wanted to

763
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 3: kill his enemies. But yeah, but that was the justification,

764
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 3: was blood atonement.

765
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. So he's teaching this and he we got video

766
00:44:55,080 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: of him teaching this, and I asked him, who allifies

767
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: for blooded toone me? Because this is a scary shit, Yeah,

768
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: you know, And he looks at me straight in the

769
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: eyes and he says, anybody who knowingly goes against the prophet?

770
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 3: And that's him that.

771
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: Goes like, but guess what all his wives know this,

772
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: he's been teaching this. Do they dare not do the

773
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: things he requires of them? Do they dare not you know,

774
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: hide evidence or not up the girls? You know?

775
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 3: I mean. And that's on top of just like the

776
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 3: baseline coercion that's there, which is more along the lines

777
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 3: of of you know what you experienced, which is your

778
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 3: eternal salvation being threatened, and that itself is so powerful, Yeah,

779
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 3: because like that's that's forever, that's Heaven, that's forever, that's being,

780
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 3: you know, suffering for all of eternity. Like that's already

781
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 3: so powerful on its own and has kept so many

782
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 3: people in course of situations that they never would be

783
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 3: an otherwise if they didn't believe this like terrifying thing

784
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 3: about the afterlife. But then on top of that, yeah,

785
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 3: there's the physical realm threat, which I mean, it's just

786
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 3: like another level of coersion that I can't imagine.

787
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: Just quick side note, Toga and I started filming like

788
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: some archival footage for the FLDS, and we're thinking about

789
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: doing a documentary just on the FLDS. It would take

790
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: away maybe some of the stigma and help them be

791
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: less traumatized. We didn't really know, we're not really documentarians,

792
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 1: but we were filming and hoped to make it into

793
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: a documentary. Then Sam saw some of the clips that

794
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 1: Toga had made. He wanted to be filmed and I

795
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: was like, no way, no way, we're not platform ringing

796
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: this guy. This is before I knew anything right, but

797
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 1: he still was not being an FLD guy. He was

798
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: off on his own. Then as we started to learn

799
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: more crazy stuff, we realized if we film him, we

800
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: might get something, we might get some evidence. That's so

801
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: we start filming all this stuff. So that's why we

802
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 1: have footage of him talking about blood atonement. He was

803
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: actually planning and trying to involve some family members and

804
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: killing Morone and Lud. I'm surprised he didn't. I'm surprised

805
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: that that didn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. It was a very

806
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,879
Speaker 1: scary situation because then Moron I goes missing. He went

807
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: missing for days, and the FBI was about to put

808
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: out an APB on him and have people searching for

809
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: him because we thought, oh no, oh no, we didn't

810
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: once you were already working with the ACE, I was

811
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: working with him. I'm dumping the gun side.

812
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 3: I do remember where was he worried about Marona I Am.

813
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,720
Speaker 1: It was in Phoenix and he was forced to write

814
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 1: a confession. So you wrote this big confession of things

815
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 1: that he didn't do. But that's kind of what they do, right,

816
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: They want confessions, and even if they're not really like

817
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:11,919
Speaker 1: I through Nary did.

818
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 4: The same thing. I was just thinking of wait, what

819
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 4: you called the collateral? Collateral? Yeah, confessions of things? You

820
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 4: haven't done that Blackmaileo. Yeah, he was doing it for Sam.

821
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, Sam.

822
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 3: In Phoenix for some reason.

823
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we for some reason. We don't know why.

824
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: All right, so you guys start filming. Yeah, So it

825
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 1: turns out Sam seems to be a narcissist and wants

826
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 1: to be filmed all the time.

827
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 3: It's so funny to me, Like there's the fact that

828
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:44,919
Speaker 3: there are I feel like there's a good amount of

829
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 3: we've had on a good amount of people whose leaders

830
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 3: just desperately wanted everything to be documented, and it's like,

831
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 3: you know, this doesn't go well for you if you

832
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 3: if someone sees this, right, like the Sarah Lawrence guy

833
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 3: filming everything. Yeah, it's so crazy to me. Every time,

834
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 3: I'm like, are you sure?

835
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: I know? I mean he was calling us and his

836
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: wives were calling us, and they were coming to our

837
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: house to be filmed. So they were like throwing themselves

838
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 1: in front of the camera. And so if there's any

839
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: question about whether they consented, the answer is yes, yes, yes,

840
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 1: and yes. So we just filmed everything and kept turning

841
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: it into law enforcement. Not even deciding whether it was

842
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: evidence or not. We just turned everything in the minute

843
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: we got it, you know, we turned it in, but

844
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: law enforcement didn't seem to care.

845
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 4: That's one of the saddest parts of this story. And

846
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 4: if you hadn't have kept going, yeah, I.

847
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 3: Mean, you made a presentation at some point, right, Can

848
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 3: you talk about the presentation.

849
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 1: I was very frustrated that when I had an audio

850
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: recording of Sam confessing ritualistic sexual abuse that he forced

851
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,240
Speaker 1: three of his wives to participate in, one of whom

852
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: was a child. I had that. I got that audio

853
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: and the victims were right there on the audio talking

854
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,760
Speaker 1: about how, you know, how they felt when it happened.

855
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 1: So we have the victims and the perpetrator, and they

856
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: didn't even listen to it for like a couple months later.

857
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: Then they didn't do anything on it. So I was

858
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: quite determined that we move this thing forward. To say

859
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: that I was frustrated is an understatement. And so finally

860
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: the officer calls me and says, you're gonna be happy

861
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: about something. Can you come and meet with this interstate

862
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: committee of law enforcement people talk about Sam Bateman. It's

863
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: like hell yeah, So I go there. I actually do

864
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: a PowerPoint presentation. We have people from Uta, have people

865
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 1: from Arizona. Why are they making an interstate task force

866
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: when I've been asking for the FBI to be involved. Right,

867
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: the FBI does the interstate stuff, but they wanted to

868
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: do their own thing, I guess. So I do the presentation.

869
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: Then they have a meeting down in Phoenix with the

870
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: FBI sometime later. I don't know three weeks.

871
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 3: What's in the presentation, just briefly.

872
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 1: Okay, So I show the pictures of everybody. I have

873
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: bullet points of what is happening, what I know, what

874
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: was said in the tape, things like that there was

875
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: proof of.

876
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 3: Its full pitch deck for it was explaining how there

877
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 3: was child sexual abuse.

878
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I am doing my job.

879
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 4: Here's the child's sexual abuse. Here it is on a PowerPoint. Yes,

880
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 4: here is where he lives. Here, where they live, and

881
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 4: let's all go there. What my expectation would be is

882
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 4: let's get it in the cop cars.

883
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 1: Wooe wooie wooie. That's the sound of the alarm, and

884
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: we'll go arrest them. Yes, it's I just showed it

885
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: to you.

886
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 4: And I've had the same kind of experience with my

887
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 4: own group, Like, it doesn't work that way. It's a

888
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 4: very long process of getting these people arrested, so.

889
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: You get to go to the FBI.

890
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I just want to like mention like or

891
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 3: I guess more ask like you know, having having done

892
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 3: dirry duty a couple of times, like, you do need

893
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 3: a good amount of evidence to secure a conviction. So

894
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 3: was it like was it that a confession wasn't enough

895
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 3: because it needed more corroboration?

896
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 1: Like what were they saying? They needed a victim willing

897
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: to come forward? Okay, And to be fair, I've heard

898
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: that from other police departments too, that if they don't

899
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: have a victim willing to come forward, they're not going

900
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 1: to proceed with it. So even though there were victims

901
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: on the tape, if they still believed in him and

902
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: would lie for him, they that's right.

903
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 3: Like you get him to court and they just say

904
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 3: it didn't happen, I mean, then you're not going to

905
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 3: win that.

906
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 1: I assumed that they were that there was an investigation

907
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: because I kept delivering stuff, So I assumed they were

908
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 1: watching it and they would have known that there was

909
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: interstate activity based on what we delivered. But I don't

910
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,919
Speaker 1: think they did, and I didn't know until I saw

911
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: the documentary myself, because we didn't produce it. We didn't

912
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 1: we had no creative control over it. We didn't even

913
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 1: see it until two weeks before it came out.

914
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 3: Toga has a producer credit, but he was not He

915
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,760
Speaker 3: did not have any control over it, right exactly.

916
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: So there were things in there I didn't even know. Yeah,

917
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 1: because they had They even got footage from you know,

918
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: other places, bodycam, other people, stuff like that. But the

919
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: interstate aspect of it would have enabled the FBI to come.

920
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 1: And I was wanting the FBI because I wanted to

921
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:47,280
Speaker 1: have recording devices and guidance, and the local LA enforcement

922
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: said they couldn't do that, that had to be FBI.

923
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, get the FBI, you know, And so

924
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: I was bothering them, so they were. He was excited

925
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: to tell me about this, you know, task force. That's great.

926
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: So finally the FBI gets involved, and then things really

927
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 1: took off finally with a lot of progress.

928
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 4: That was so wonderful to see. I will just quickly

929
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 4: add I wish there wasn't a lot that a victim

930
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 4: had to come forward if you have video of them, Yeah,

931
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 4: because you're gonna get victim shamed, and it's really hard,

932
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 4: and a lot of these girls are really young.

933
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's just so many laws that I

934
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 1: wish we could change.

935
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 3: Maybe if they had filmed the crime itself, that would

936
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 3: be different. But I guess just the recording of them

937
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 3: talking about it.

938
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 2: Yeah maybe, I guess I see why that's not quite enough.

939
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 3: But it's frustrate. It's certainly frustrating. Frustrating. Yeah, yeah, yeah

940
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 3: it was.

941
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: And they were also brainwashed, you know, I know that's

942
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: not a psychological term, but it's what we say. Yeah,

943
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 1: they wouldn't. They would be protecting him, and you.

944
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 3: Can see it very clearly in the footage. I mean,

945
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 3: our previous guest and lovely friend Gnomes. You can see

946
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 3: she is very much, very indoctrinated in Yeah, you know,

947
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 3: intent on following Sam's orders at all costs.

948
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: And you understand why now. I mean, there was always

949
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: a subtle threat that if you don't, it was more

950
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:19,760
Speaker 1: than your eternal life, you know, you might get killed. Yeah,

951
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:25,399
Speaker 1: and I was afraid. I started getting messages and threats too,

952
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: but that was after it's a little later, Yeah, after

953
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: we got out and all that stuff.

954
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 3: And Nolme's talked a little bit. If folks haven't heard

955
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 3: her episode yet, she talked a little bit about the

956
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,439
Speaker 3: process of sam indoctrinating her because there were a lot

957
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 3: there was physical harm that happened, there were more, you know,

958
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 3: there was a lot going on besides the aforementioned course

959
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 3: of rights. Yeah, okay, so then things start picking up.

960
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was incredible. So we still needed a victim

961
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:03,280
Speaker 1: to come forward. And because I wasn't attacking the Samulites,

962
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 1: because I hadn't attacked the FLDSS, because I continued to

963
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: be kind and epathetic no matter where they were in

964
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: their journey, a victim felt like I was a safe

965
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 1: person to come to. So she did and she her

966
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: name is Julia, and she seemed upset. I said, Julia,

967
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: what's going on? Whatever you tell me, I'm not going

968
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 1: to tell sam our thing's okay, And she said no,

969
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: and she let me know that there were things going on.

970
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: But even before her, the reason I knew is because

971
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: there was one of the young wives that was having

972
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 1: secret meetings with me named Michel, and Michel was giving

973
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:02,959
Speaker 1: me as much background as she could, but they kept

974
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: her in the dark about a lot of things, but

975
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 1: I had some background by that time. I knew Sam

976
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 1: had married all these little girls, including as young as

977
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: age nine.

978
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 3: Ah Jesus Christ.

979
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: Okay, So when Julia came to me, I already had

980
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: a background on some of the things. She wanted to talk,

981
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: but she didn't know if I was going to tell Sam.

982
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: I wanted to tell her everything, but I didn't know

983
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:26,439
Speaker 1: if she was going to tell Sam. And I knew

984
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: I had to get evidence. So we were doing this

985
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: dance hmmm, like can I trust you? Can I trust you?

986
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: So the next day she came over and I had

987
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 1: my box of evidence from my own personal experience when

988
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: my prophet had written things, and I said to her, Julia,

989
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: no matter what has happened, I have no judgment. I

990
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 1: had to get naked as for part of my tests

991
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: and do things I would have never done, and subject

992
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: myself to abuse something like that. And I said, I

993
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 1: want to show you some of the writings from my profit,

994
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 1: and I get out some of his actual writings, including

995
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: handwritten letters from prison. And she was amazed, because I thought,

996
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 1: if I tell her my story, then she'll know I'm

997
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: really not going to go to Sam that I've been

998
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 1: through this That was my strategy and it worked. So

999
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 1: I didn't even have to go through all the box

1000
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:40,919
Speaker 1: or anything. She just hit this point and she told

1001
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: me later, when you told me your story, I thought

1002
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: I had no idea how deeply she would not understand this,

1003
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:51,959
Speaker 1: and that she was the right person. So she said,

1004
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: that is when the flood She let the flood gates out.

1005
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 1: She started telling me everything. Then I was recording it,

1006
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: and she was, you know, did a lot of crying.

1007
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: It was, but she wanted me to record so she

1008
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: wouldn't have to say it again because it was so

1009
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: emotional to the FBI. And then she I told her

1010
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 1: I was working with the FBI, and then I had

1011
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: to help her gain trust in law enforcement, which is

1012
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: no small feat, of course, you know. But then she did,

1013
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: and it was the fact that it was a woman

1014
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: was very helpful and that Don was so kind. She

1015
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 1: was incredible. So then Julia down the FBI specially agent charge,

1016
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 1: and I just became this this tornado of productivity.

1017
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 3: It's just like so dramatic, like these three women working

1018
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 3: together in secret to take down this guy, like it's

1019
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 3: so amazing, Oh my goodness.

1020
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: When we were doing it and we knew we were scared.

1021
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: Like when we were doing this, Sam was still teaching

1022
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 1: blood to Tom, and he told Julia that she needed

1023
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 1: she needed help make sure this God enacted on her

1024
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: own husband that he was killed essentially, and he gets killed. Yes,

1025
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: And because Sam was jealous of him, right, and jealous

1026
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 1: as the other man. Because remember he took the wives

1027
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: from Vietnam, but the wives wanted to stay with Marona

1028
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 1: in Luod, you know, I mean at least with Marona.

1029
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: And he resented he and he rebuked those wives for

1030
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 1: still thinking about him when they were crying when they

1031
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: had to go to Sam and all this stuff.

1032
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 4: He's such a baby. He's like a baby with a grenade.

1033
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 4: That's so scary. I mean, you can politically make whatever connections.

1034
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: Look at me, look at me, dep around. Yeah, he

1035
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 1: wanted everybody to see him, so he put his wives

1036
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: in this flatbed trailer and drove around town with all

1037
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: these they're beautiful, these are beautiful, smart people. And he

1038
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: would want all the man to see him, you know,

1039
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 1: showing off his prize horses as he drove around town.

1040
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: All these beautiful young girls like me. You guys, they

1041
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: like me. I got them.

1042
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 4: Wow, your life was on the line, and watching that

1043
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 4: documentary is bone chilling.

1044
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: How you must have been petrified. I was petrified at times,

1045
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 1: for sure. One time I got in my car and

1046
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: was driving away and I got a phone call from

1047
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 1: Sam and he said, you look very lovely in your

1048
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 1: pink dressed with your blue sweater or whatever I was wearing.

1049
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 1: And I thought, how does he know what I were today?

1050
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 1: And I realized, does he have cameras at my house?

1051
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 1: On my house? With what will come to my mind? Yeah,

1052
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 1: I mean I freaked out about it. I did video journals.

1053
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 1: I sent him to Lolan case something happened to me.

1054
01:01:56,360 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 3: You know, I have a bunch of WhatsApp history of

1055
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 3: voice memos.

1056
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 4: You must have been petrified to Lola, that's it's so scary.

1057
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 4: You're really dealing with a psychopath. And I got some

1058
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 4: literal death threats.

1059
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And once I hit it Lola's house because

1060
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 1: I was afraid that they were going to make good

1061
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 1: on their threat that I would be because that's after

1062
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 1: they found out. That's after they found out.

1063
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember talking to you both ones. So I

1064
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 4: was just like, I'm very scared. I don't bubb and

1065
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 4: you guys like, there's a donkey.

1066
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 1: Donkey alarm system. That's true. I was like, I want

1067
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: more though than just a donkey, where.

1068
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 3: Though the second you walk up about.

1069
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 1: Donkey noise, I can't do it.

1070
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 4: True, So there's a donkey that lives on your property

1071
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 4: or was that would make a loud noise, and that

1072
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 4: that was our security for its true.

1073
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 1: It's true. It's a miniature donkey.

1074
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 2: We still have in my love them now they have

1075
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 2: a real alarm, sister. But we do good good.

1076
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 3: But yeah, at the time, I mean, yes, I took

1077
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 3: comfort into a people at your house. There are always

1078
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 3: people at your house.

1079
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 1: There are. And when we knew that the arrest was imminent,

1080
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 1: we started moving Julia out of this one home where

1081
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: everybody was living, right, so we called the Blue House.

1082
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 1: And so secretly, in the middle of the night, Julia

1083
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 1: would put boxes of her stuff in these bins. Now

1084
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 1: she had a cleaning company, so she would have these

1085
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 1: gray bins with all her cleaning stuff, Like I think

1086
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 1: they were like gray with yellow lids, you know. So

1087
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 1: she would put like four of them by the door.

1088
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: And then Michel, this beautiful young girl who's also a singer.

1089
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 1: I mean she's over eighteen, but she would take those

1090
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 1: bins put them in her car, so people at the

1091
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: house thought it was Julia's cleaning supplies. But we were

1092
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 1: secretly moving them out, you know, every night. And if

1093
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: Michael would have been caught, she would have been in

1094
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 1: a very bad way. But that's how we did it.

1095
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 1: She hid her stuff, you know, cleaning binds, so nobody

1096
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 1: would be aware. So she was primarily moved out before

1097
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 1: the raid, but she finished moving out afterwards anyway, So

1098
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 1: then there was a raid. Yes it worked. Yeah, that

1099
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 1: was a thing. That raid could have been a disaster

1100
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 1: without you.

1101
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 4: We've talked to so many people who have lost family

1102
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 4: members and raids.

1103
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can get really ugly. And what was that

1104
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 2: like for you?

1105
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: It was scary. The night before, Toga and I had

1106
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 1: a hugging crying session. If anything happens to you, I

1107
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 1: want you to know you were the best husband. I

1108
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 1: was sitting on his lab. We were just hugging and rocking.

1109
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 1: You know. It's like I had the best life.

1110
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 3: We just didn't like God because he's with Sam and

1111
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 3: you're with the girls.

1112
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 1: The next day he was to be with Sam and

1113
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 1: I would be with the girls, and we knew they

1114
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:59,959
Speaker 1: had weapons, you know, we knew the girls had said

1115
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 1: if anybody arrests Sam, We're going to level the state

1116
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: of Utah in Arizona. We knew they'd been out doing

1117
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 1: target practice learning how to use these weapons. So but

1118
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 1: we also knew we had to come through. You know,

1119
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 1: when I was driven, I did not want them to

1120
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 1: go through any more abuse, and I did not want

1121
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:25,440
Speaker 1: them to have the hole in their heart that law

1122
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 1: enforcement never cared like I had, that their guy would

1123
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 1: never get arrested. I was determined to get him off

1124
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 1: the street, and so whatever it took, so we did.

1125
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 1: So I went over in the location where the girls were.

1126
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 1: We wanted to separate Sam from the girls so there'd

1127
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 1: be a less chance of violence, and Toga went with

1128
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 1: Sam and it was it was handled very well. It

1129
01:05:56,560 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: was scary, but there was no violence, and we had

1130
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: the doors open so they didn't break the doors in

1131
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 1: terrify all the little babies. You know. So it was

1132
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 1: an incredibly intense time for everyone, so emotional on so

1133
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 1: many levels. Yeah, but the people, the people who had

1134
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 1: done the right. There were fifty law enforcement from around

1135
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: from around places when they were not told who the

1136
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 1: informants were so they treated everybody the same. They threw

1137
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 1: toga on the ground, they did.

1138
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't know that.

1139
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had to get handcuffs, you know.

1140
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 3: Oh wow, wow.

1141
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: They just didn't know who I was.

1142
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 3: They intentional so that you wouldn't get treated differently.

1143
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1144
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, interesting. You know.

1145
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 1: They took our phones like everybody else's. They interrogated us.

1146
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 1: And Julia when she was when the FBI went into

1147
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 1: her room, I was trying to let her know. I

1148
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 1: couldn't let her know that it was about to happen,

1149
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 1: but she was so scared, she was on pins and

1150
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 1: needles that they wouldn't come in time. I couldn't tell her,

1151
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 1: but so I called her early in the morning and

1152
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 1: I just said, Julia, are you dressed? Mmmmm? Get you

1153
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 1: might want to get dressed.

1154
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 4: Mmmm.

1155
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,200
Speaker 1: You might want to look pretty. Oh my gosh, that's

1156
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 1: all I said, I might want to get dressed right now.

1157
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 1: But she still didn't know. But when they came into

1158
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 1: her place, she said she just wanted to hug them,

1159
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: just wanted to hug them. Well, everybody else was so angry.

1160
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: She was like, thank you think you thank you, my god.

1161
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, can you talk to just briefly a bit about

1162
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 3: conflict you felt in your head knowing that you were

1163
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:36,760
Speaker 3: going to betray their trust.

1164
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 1: You know, when I think about how I escaped my situation,

1165
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 1: it was with the help of someone who brought me

1166
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:48,600
Speaker 1: into reality kind of forcefully in a way, you know.

1167
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 1: But I had to be that person. And I love

1168
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 1: these people so much. I still do, even though they

1169
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 1: hate me. I know that's not who they really are.

1170
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 1: And I just didn't want to add to their suffering,

1171
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: and I knew it would. It was rough. I had

1172
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 1: to get therapy, you know, to live that double life

1173
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:16,479
Speaker 1: and to deal with the anticipation of how much.

1174
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 3: I was going to hurt them.

1175
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 1: But I had to come to the conclusion that I

1176
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 1: was hurting them for their own good.

1177
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, you had to be the real adult and your life,

1178
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 4: I thought.

1179
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:29,799
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1180
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 1: It was like I was taking like they were drunk

1181
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 1: and I was taking the keys to their car away,

1182
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:38,280
Speaker 1: whether they wanted me to or not. Right now, you

1183
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:40,639
Speaker 1: know a number of people have woken up and come

1184
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:44,280
Speaker 1: out and are incredibly grateful. That's great, but not all,

1185
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:49,759
Speaker 1: not all, not all, no, probably not most.

1186
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:52,320
Speaker 4: What did it feel like when you knew the raid

1187
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 4: was over and it had been non violent.

1188
01:08:56,720 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 1: I suppose it would be like running a marathon and

1189
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: winning and then for three days afterwards, you've got like

1190
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 1: still all this nervous energy, but it's happy, something like

1191
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 1: that miracle.

1192
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 3: And so now this series is out and the whole

1193
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 3: world knows who you are. Something we've talked about, I

1194
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:22,720
Speaker 3: think in our original episode certainly that we've talked about

1195
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,760
Speaker 3: between us, which is what your research centers around, which

1196
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:30,520
Speaker 3: is media misrepresentation, and how your story of your original

1197
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:37,240
Speaker 3: experience with our profit was not told well when people

1198
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 3: had told it, it victim blamed you, you know, it

1199
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:44,360
Speaker 3: retraumatized you, and so that's become something that you're passionate about.

1200
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:47,400
Speaker 3: How do you feel now having been a part of

1201
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 3: this series.

1202
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness, I feel really overjoyed. It was so

1203
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 1: ethically complicated and the story was complicated. So when we

1204
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 1: entrusted all the footage to someone else, I mean we

1205
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 1: were in it. It was too big for us. We

1206
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:09,920
Speaker 1: had to but we had to just hope that the director,

1207
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:12,559
Speaker 1: Rachel Dredsen, the main director, but then there was also

1208
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 1: longtime family friend Elise who was a director, and also Jamila,

1209
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:24,799
Speaker 1: and so we just turned it over and I didn't

1210
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:27,800
Speaker 1: just hope that they would do it well. I did

1211
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 1: as much educating as I could to Rachel about my

1212
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:39,360
Speaker 1: hopes and why I talked about my experience. I talked

1213
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:44,000
Speaker 1: about everything that I knew that creates victim shaming and

1214
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 1: why it was so important to give the psychological backdrop

1215
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 1: of everything. And I suspect she knew all that anyway,

1216
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 1: but I wanted to feel like I tried really hard

1217
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:00,640
Speaker 1: to impart the need to treat these people dignity and

1218
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:04,839
Speaker 1: see them as victims even if they committed crimes because

1219
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 1: of Sam, and the way it turned out was amazing.

1220
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:15,640
Speaker 1: I couldn't have done it better because the public response

1221
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:20,719
Speaker 1: has been to want to embrace these victims. I haven't

1222
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:24,639
Speaker 1: seen a single comment that has been victim shaming, even

1223
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:28,760
Speaker 1: for the people who still believe in Sam. And you know,

1224
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 1: I've been inundated with dms and emails and those words

1225
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 1: are a dream for me after what I went through.

1226
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 1: To see them treating the survivors of Sam Bateman with

1227
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:49,240
Speaker 1: so much dignity, I couldn't have asked for better directors,

1228
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:51,280
Speaker 1: a better team.

1229
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 3: So, dear mother, Yes, first of all, just like, what

1230
01:11:55,479 --> 01:11:57,160
Speaker 3: a fucking life you have.

1231
01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 4: You're a hero, lightly hero, and you've been a hero

1232
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:03,799
Speaker 4: to me. You're one of the first people who's gotten

1233
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:07,600
Speaker 4: through to me. We both love you so much, my

1234
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 4: best friend. You've saved so many lives. Yes, yeah, America's

1235
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:11,880
Speaker 4: best friends.

1236
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:15,200
Speaker 3: Honestly, I get so many comments too, just being like

1237
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:17,599
Speaker 3: America's mother and I do.

1238
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:20,639
Speaker 1: Love children, but like be kind to each other, please,

1239
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 1: and I don't.

1240
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:24,679
Speaker 3: I'm not responding to all of them. But like, that's

1241
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 3: how I've always known you in long before this, long

1242
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:31,240
Speaker 3: before there were any cameras, no one ever around to see.

1243
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 3: Like if anybody ever is like having trouble and they

1244
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:37,880
Speaker 3: call you, you answer and you talk to them for

1245
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 3: like two hours, even if you barely fucking know them,

1246
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:42,360
Speaker 3: Like that's just always been who you are, and like

1247
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:45,520
Speaker 3: you always have been doing service in private and secretly

1248
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:49,479
Speaker 3: and when no one is watching. That's just like and

1249
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:51,799
Speaker 3: I was annoyed by it growing up, if we're being honest,

1250
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:53,839
Speaker 3: I was like, stop stop blooding.

1251
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:55,400
Speaker 1: I don't want all these people around.

1252
01:12:56,360 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 3: Sorry, But so it's it's very exciting for me to

1253
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:06,640
Speaker 3: see that now everyone can appreciate who you are and

1254
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 3: what you've done and and just like truly kind of

1255
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:11,440
Speaker 3: test it.

1256
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:13,400
Speaker 1: It's just always you've always been like that.

1257
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 4: And then to give the dignity to your own story

1258
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:18,920
Speaker 4: that was stripped away, Like yeah.

1259
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:19,080
Speaker 3: It was.

1260
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 1: It was healing for me to you know, this was

1261
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:29,519
Speaker 1: the story of three women Me, Julia, and Nomes who

1262
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 1: had all suffered abuse, who came together and took down

1263
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:34,559
Speaker 1: a monster.

1264
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:35,599
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1265
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:38,599
Speaker 1: It was girl power. Yeah, and I couldn't have done

1266
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:41,680
Speaker 1: it without Tolga. Yeah, he was my secret weapon. But

1267
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 1: this was really about women finding their voice, and for me,

1268
01:13:47,040 --> 01:13:52,400
Speaker 1: it was full circle narrative arc. Yeah, because yeah, after

1269
01:13:52,479 --> 01:13:57,240
Speaker 1: what the docu drama did to destroy me and make.

1270
01:13:57,120 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 3: The feel like the old one, the old one.

1271
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 1: Make me feel like the most sluch shamed mother on

1272
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:04,160
Speaker 1: the planet. Now, to be honest, I feel like the

1273
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:07,599
Speaker 1: most loved person on the most loved woman on the internet.

1274
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:10,559
Speaker 1: And you should be And oh you're so kind. I

1275
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 1: know it's going to go away, but I'm savoring this

1276
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 1: moment and I'm thrilled with all of the changes and

1277
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:22,240
Speaker 1: the impact that is coming from people who've watched the documentary.

1278
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:26,639
Speaker 1: I get to talk to students, teachers, have me zoom

1279
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:29,720
Speaker 1: in to talk about coerceive control because of the documentary.

1280
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I've already done like five educational zooms. But

1281
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:37,719
Speaker 1: then other people say they found the strength to turn

1282
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:40,800
Speaker 1: in their abuser because they were inspired by Julia, the

1283
01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:44,599
Speaker 1: real hero who really threatened her, had her life threatened,

1284
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:49,559
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I can't stress it enough. What

1285
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 1: the inner power and strength she had to come up

1286
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 1: with with what she was facing.

1287
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:57,400
Speaker 4: You make a great point. There's so many heroes in

1288
01:14:57,479 --> 01:15:00,800
Speaker 4: the story of the FBI A. Yes, she was incredible.

1289
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:02,600
Speaker 4: I keep making a mental note that we have to

1290
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:05,080
Speaker 4: drop her full name in the intro because.

1291
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:07,839
Speaker 1: They're so smart. There's heroes on heroes and heroes.

1292
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:13,880
Speaker 4: And yeah, thank you beyond words for for doing the

1293
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:16,040
Speaker 4: work that you did, even though it could have gotten

1294
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:19,280
Speaker 4: you killed and you still have threats, but thank god

1295
01:15:19,320 --> 01:15:23,360
Speaker 4: for donkeys and alarm systems and yeah, your voice.

1296
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for me. Thank you from me. Thank you

1297
01:15:28,439 --> 01:15:32,080
Speaker 1: to everybody who has watched it, been touched by it

1298
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 1: and told other people to watch it and made some

1299
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:40,960
Speaker 1: kind of change as a result of it. That is something.

1300
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:44,840
Speaker 1: The response to be this great, to go number one

1301
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:48,599
Speaker 1: globally on Netflix, and to have just won a Critic's

1302
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 1: Choice Award. It almost startles me. It makes my heart beam. Yeah,

1303
01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:58,640
Speaker 1: it makes my heart smile. And it's so it's so,

1304
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:00,559
Speaker 1: it's just so right. Yeah.

1305
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:03,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, And for me, sorry not to harp on this

1306
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 3: for too long. I know we have to wrap up,

1307
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 3: but I'm just really happy that, like you're what you've

1308
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:09,760
Speaker 3: gone through in your life, because you have been through

1309
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:14,120
Speaker 3: so much adversity and you have been traumatized and had

1310
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:17,479
Speaker 3: so much taken from you. The fact that you get

1311
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,320
Speaker 3: to use that, the fact that you got to use

1312
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 3: that not only to help them but also like to

1313
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:25,200
Speaker 3: tell this story in this larger way, is just so

1314
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 3: fucking gratify.

1315
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:26,800
Speaker 1: That's your resilience.

1316
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:30,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is resiliently use dramatic growth, post traumatic growth.

1317
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:35,960
Speaker 1: It's resilience and it's and it's turning trauma into triumph.

1318
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 3: And that's her slogan.

1319
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:39,559
Speaker 1: Focus is I got it in there.

1320
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:44,160
Speaker 4: And if you experienced trauma and you want to find

1321
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:49,840
Speaker 4: meaning from it, watch this document documentarian, Watch does this documentarian?

1322
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:50,679
Speaker 3: Just document?

1323
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 1: Watch this document a tree?

1324
01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:57,320
Speaker 4: And uh yeah, what where can people follow you?

1325
01:16:57,439 --> 01:17:01,559
Speaker 1: What followed me on Instagram? Doctor Christie. There's a dot

1326
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:04,479
Speaker 1: after the R like dr dot Christy Marie. I'm on

1327
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:08,840
Speaker 1: TikTok doctor Christy Marie. I haven't really started doing TikTok yet,

1328
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:14,000
Speaker 1: but I'm going to. And I have a website, Christinemurrie

1329
01:17:14,040 --> 01:17:16,120
Speaker 1: dot com, and I have a lot of resources on there.

1330
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:18,679
Speaker 1: If any of this speaks to you and you need

1331
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:22,759
Speaker 1: some help, check out my resource page. We love you, amen,

1332
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:29,080
Speaker 1: thank you amen. Why are we saying amend? It's just odd?

1333
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 3: No, okay, gosh, And instead of amen, I will say, indeed,

1334
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:37,639
Speaker 3: thank you mom.

1335
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 1: Love you guys, thank you mom. And that's all we.

1336
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 3: Have with my dear mother, Christine Marie, who you may

1337
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:49,519
Speaker 3: hear from again very soon, I don't know.

1338
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:54,559
Speaker 1: We'll see crust, your cross, your fingies. Yeah.

1339
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:59,040
Speaker 3: What an incredible story, What an incredible journey she's been on,

1340
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:02,799
Speaker 3: And what a way to use you know, your traumatic

1341
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:07,000
Speaker 3: experiences for good. I mean, it's kind of the most extreme.

1342
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:08,040
Speaker 3: Weay you could do it, but.

1343
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:12,760
Speaker 1: I don't. Ideally, I don't want to do that.

1344
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:16,680
Speaker 3: But this brings me to my question, because this is

1345
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 3: normally the part of the podcast for those who are

1346
01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:22,280
Speaker 3: new where I ask Megan if she would join this cult.

1347
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:24,360
Speaker 3: I'm not going to ask her that today. She would

1348
01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:25,760
Speaker 3: join many cults, not this one.

1349
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:30,000
Speaker 1: We know this. Nope. So Megan, would you go undercover? Oh?

1350
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:34,679
Speaker 4: Yes, I would, But I don't know if I could

1351
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:37,160
Speaker 4: go to the links that your mom did because she's

1352
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:38,080
Speaker 4: a hero.

1353
01:18:38,320 --> 01:18:38,639
Speaker 1: I don't.

1354
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:41,519
Speaker 4: I could like maybe put on a fake mustache or

1355
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:46,759
Speaker 4: something and like you know, the like the real version

1356
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 4: of that, like maybe a wig, go try a few things,

1357
01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:52,599
Speaker 4: but I don't.

1358
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:54,680
Speaker 3: I feel like I could see you going into like

1359
01:18:55,760 --> 01:19:03,440
Speaker 3: yoga community and just getting into it, you know, like authentically,

1360
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 3: and then maybe you just start tore in it in

1361
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:06,240
Speaker 3: a minute.

1362
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 1: That's why I couldn't.

1363
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:10,280
Speaker 4: If listeners listen to the episode A couple back with

1364
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:13,640
Speaker 4: Noomes where I almost moved into the alien cult house, like,

1365
01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:17,439
Speaker 4: sometimes going undercover means you join the cult. So I

1366
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:22,400
Speaker 4: shouldn't go undercover for cults that or something I might join.

1367
01:19:23,040 --> 01:19:25,160
Speaker 4: But I would like to think if there were a

1368
01:19:25,240 --> 01:19:27,519
Speaker 4: cult out there doing criminal things that I could go

1369
01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:28,280
Speaker 4: undercover and.

1370
01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:31,400
Speaker 3: Help that I would. Yeah, I think you would. I

1371
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:33,960
Speaker 3: think I would. I think we both would. I would,

1372
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:35,080
Speaker 3: but I couldn't.

1373
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:38,920
Speaker 4: We would maybe not do it as long. Yeah, length

1374
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:43,280
Speaker 4: might be the problem for us. Yea, Yeah, she played

1375
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 4: the long game. And there's really no words to describe

1376
01:19:46,320 --> 01:19:50,240
Speaker 4: what she did. So, doctor Christine, we love you, but

1377
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:52,479
Speaker 4: I love you the most because you're my actual mother

1378
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:57,400
Speaker 4: in addition to being America's mother. Well, Lola, it looks

1379
01:19:57,439 --> 01:20:00,120
Speaker 4: like it's a wrap, but let's ask our listeners to

1380
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:01,520
Speaker 4: go rate us five stars.

1381
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:04,960
Speaker 1: If you so, please go get some merch at.

1382
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:06,799
Speaker 3: Exactly rightstore dot com.

1383
01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 4: That's right, and as always, remember to follow your gut,

1384
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 4: watch out for red flags.

1385
01:20:13,120 --> 01:20:18,120
Speaker 1: And never ever trust me. Bye.

1386
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 3: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted by.

1387
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:25,679
Speaker 1: Me Lola Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer

1388
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:26,479
Speaker 1: is G. Holly.

1389
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:28,599
Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1390
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1391
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 4: is Patrick Kottner.

1392
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:35,880
Speaker 3: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1393
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:40,200
Speaker 4: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia Hartstark

1394
01:20:40,280 --> 01:20:41,240
Speaker 4: and Danielle Kramer.

1395
01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:43,719
Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1396
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:46,040
Speaker 3: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1397
01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:49,440
Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1398
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:52,839
Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1399
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:55,800
Speaker 3: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts,

1400
01:20:55,880 --> 01:21:03,160
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts