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Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless,

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Speaker 1: severely bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening. Don't

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Speaker 1: eat podcast. You can't predict anything presented by first light.

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Speaker 1: Go farther, stay longer, down to our main thing. Uh,

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Speaker 1: what I have heard? I feel like I've even heard

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Speaker 1: you say your last name differently on different occasions. That's

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Speaker 1: probably not true, I hope not so, Fosberg, So you

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Speaker 1: do do the Z. Most people probably stay Fosburgh, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you know, there's sometimes you got the s and

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Speaker 1: sometimes to see Yeah. So with Fosberg respond to both.

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Speaker 1: You you don't, you don't correct, you just roll with it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's why I feel like I hear different versions

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Speaker 1: of UM. You've been with Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership for

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Speaker 1: sometimes seven plus years two thousand, so from that perspective,

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Speaker 1: and you had if you right now had to grade us,

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Speaker 1: if you had to grade us as a nation at

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Speaker 1: this very moment, not not the history and all that,

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Speaker 1: but just like this very moment as a nation, how

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Speaker 1: we're doing with UM wildlife and wild lands conservation. What

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Speaker 1: would the grade be pretty good, really actually would be yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you know, jeez, let's just let's just put these

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Speaker 1: microphones down. Yeah, yeah, nothing to talk about. Think about

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Speaker 1: where we are compared to any place else in the world.

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Speaker 1: And it may not be as good as we wanted

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Speaker 1: to be, and it may be sliding a little bit

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Speaker 1: right now, but in the big scheme of things, you know,

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Speaker 1: we managed wild life better than any other nation in

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Speaker 1: the world. We got more public lands to hunt and

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Speaker 1: fish and play on than any other nation in the world.

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Speaker 1: Our water is cleaner or air is cleaner. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot to be thankful. I mean people always

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Speaker 1: look at the dark excited and think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: climate change, think you know, with the public land development,

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever the issue is, that the sky is falling.

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Speaker 1: But and we can serveainely, you know, drift back where

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Speaker 1: we've been. But let's not lose the fact that, you know,

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Speaker 1: we got something great here, you know. I in my

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Speaker 1: better moments, I find myself telling people that, um, that

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Speaker 1: you live in the good old days right now. I'll

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Speaker 1: tell hunters a fisherman that, because I'm like, the thing

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Speaker 1: you want to imagine is you may like look at

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Speaker 1: your dad right and be like, oh, it's not as

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Speaker 1: good as but nonsense, Yeah, it's way better. My dad

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Speaker 1: came into My dad came into hunting coming out of

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Speaker 1: World War two and the forties, and it is way better,

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Speaker 1: way better. I mean, you think about backt the time

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Speaker 1: when you know Theodore Roosevelt created the modern conservation system.

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Speaker 1: You know, there were barely any white tail deer left.

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Speaker 1: There were almost no black bears, you know, elk or

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Speaker 1: a fraction of what they are today. Bison, We're basically

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Speaker 1: being decimated. You know, I never saw a wild turkey

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Speaker 1: growing up in up state in New York, and all

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Speaker 1: was in my thirties and I'm fifty five now, so

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we have things today that we've

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Speaker 1: never had before. Now there are some big challenges, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: we got a lot of good stuff. What I kind

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Speaker 1: of want to what do I want to do mainly

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Speaker 1: is sort of one. I want to imagine like a

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Speaker 1: stroll around the country and hear from you what things

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Speaker 1: you're looking at, what things you're concerned about, you know,

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Speaker 1: from from from just sort of like I said, just imagine,

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Speaker 1: like however you want to do it, like the east

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Speaker 1: to west or a circular walk around the country. And

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Speaker 1: then I want to ask you just about some specific

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Speaker 1: issues that are big issues that are just things that

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Speaker 1: seem to never go away. UMI, which is those which

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Speaker 1: which those you want to first do, Well, why don't

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Speaker 1: we do the you know, the stroll across the country

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Speaker 1: and what do East west? You know? I think that

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Speaker 1: there are you know, some you know, pretty significant issues

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Speaker 1: and we're facing the east, and we talked about some

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Speaker 1: of them at dinner. I mean things like, you know,

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Speaker 1: on the Upper Delaware system, the invasive not weed that's

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Speaker 1: coming in there. This, you know, just change that entire landscape.

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Speaker 1: So we sort of take invasive species for granted. Sometimes, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you have things like you know, in my upstate New York.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a beach blights killing all the mature

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Speaker 1: beach and pretty much all the mature beach are gone,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't kill him enough to get rid of

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Speaker 1: you all together. Instead, you have these immature, young beach

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Speaker 1: coming up every place, and the deer don't like them,

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Speaker 1: and they outcompete all the other hardwoods. So you don't

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Speaker 1: like them because they're not producing mass. Well, they don't

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Speaker 1: produce mass, and they don't eat the buds. I mean

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Speaker 1: they will if they're starving, but they like everything else better.

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Speaker 1: So we're having as this sort of conversion of our

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Speaker 1: forests in the Northeast to this beach diseased, immature beach monoculture.

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Speaker 1: And the only way you're gonna deal with that is

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Speaker 1: get in there and actively manage it. And we're not

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Speaker 1: doing much of that. The outer ondecks where I you

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Speaker 1: know hunt is, you know, much of that is forever wild,

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Speaker 1: hasn't been cut since the eighteen eighties and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: which is beautiful and it makes for a really cool

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Speaker 1: habitat and sort of the mosaic of private land and

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Speaker 1: public land. But the downside is over time those four

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Speaker 1: sort of convert, and when they do convert, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have this immature beach you know, nests that comes up

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Speaker 1: that's not ecologically rich in anyway, and we're gonna have

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Speaker 1: to deal with that. So you have these forest management

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Speaker 1: long term, and they really relate to these invasive pests

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Speaker 1: that have come in that are changing the ecosystem up there.

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Speaker 1: We have more time talking about non natives and invasives.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's just like it's everything's everything is undersult

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Speaker 1: I think the only tree in the Northeast that does

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Speaker 1: not have some sort of invasive parasite coming is a

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Speaker 1: red maple and you know everything else see, and we're

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Speaker 1: losing our an ash forest because the emerald ash borer.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a hemlock, you know, the woody a

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Speaker 1: delpha or whatever it is. You have a white pine

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Speaker 1: blister rust, you know. So you have these things which

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Speaker 1: have come over from Asia or Europe or you know,

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Speaker 1: the species have evolved with it, but over here we haven't.

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Speaker 1: And so it's gonna have big impacts. And so I

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Speaker 1: think that's one of the challenges we're seeing in the northeast.

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Speaker 1: If you move a little bit further south, well, let's

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Speaker 1: let's back up to that government just because, uh is

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Speaker 1: it known? Like is there a thing we could do

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Speaker 1: if we had the motivation and money to do it?

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Speaker 1: I mean, any one is you know a lot of

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Speaker 1: it you don't have to deal with right now because

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Speaker 1: it's when the four start to convert, you know, that's

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Speaker 1: when we're gonna have the problem. But like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have a property there are we hunt we've had

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Speaker 1: been in the families to eight hundreds and it's about

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Speaker 1: five thousand acres and you know a bunch of the

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Speaker 1: families own it together. But yeah, we're you know, any

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Speaker 1: when we do a lot of timber harvests there, but

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Speaker 1: we are basically, you know, anytime we're cutting beach, and

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Speaker 1: we're cutting a lot of beach, you know, we're hitting

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Speaker 1: it with you know, herbicides afterwards to try to knock

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Speaker 1: it down and give the other hardwoods there are softwoods

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Speaker 1: a chance to come up and and and we're having

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Speaker 1: some pretty good success with that. And there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of research going on at you know, Syracuse and Cornell

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Speaker 1: and some of the other institutions in New York about

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Speaker 1: how to deal with us. But in everyone hopes it

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Speaker 1: over time you'll have sort of the beach will figure

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Speaker 1: out how to deal with us themselves, but that hasn't

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Speaker 1: happened yet. You know, the same thing with you know, chestnut,

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Speaker 1: which was once the dominant hardwood in the eastern United States,

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Speaker 1: and they're gone and you know we're probably never gonna

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Speaker 1: get them back. Yeah, there's been a lot of research done.

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Speaker 1: There's a chestnut foundation that's developed a what appears to

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Speaker 1: be a resistant strain, but you're just never gonna have

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Speaker 1: it the way it was in the old days. So

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Speaker 1: I think that you know, the forest management the in

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Speaker 1: devasive species issues is a huge one in the Northeast,

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Speaker 1: and you have obviously have a sprawl equation there. There's

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Speaker 1: so many people and it's just tougher and tougher to

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Speaker 1: get outside and find places to hunt and fish. I mean,

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Speaker 1: one of the exciting things is in the Farm Bill

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Speaker 1: there's a program called the Volunteer Voluntary Public Access Habitat

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Speaker 1: Improvement Program and it's also known as open Fields, and

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Speaker 1: it essentially pays landowners, private landowners to open up their

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Speaker 1: properties for public hunting and fishing. And a lot of

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Speaker 1: that was sort of started in place like Kansas, in

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Speaker 1: the Midwest, Montana or they have pretty aggressive walk in

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Speaker 1: programs the same thing. But since the Farm Bill programs started,

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Speaker 1: is encouraged states like Connecticut, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania to create those

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Speaker 1: programs and uh, you know, just great because now those

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Speaker 1: are all stay areas that have you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: real struggle to find you have public lands in those places.

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Speaker 1: It does it pay them in the form of tax

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Speaker 1: incentives or is it payment the form of cash cash,

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Speaker 1: So it's a competitive grant to go to the states

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Speaker 1: and stays negotiated with landowners and it gives them cash,

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Speaker 1: and it gives them a wave of liability if somebody

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Speaker 1: steps in a ditch and breaks their leg or something

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Speaker 1: like that, so the state assumes that liability. And it's

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Speaker 1: been uh, you know, it's I mean, I think in

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Speaker 1: the first farm bill, the two thousand and eight farm

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Speaker 1: Bill where we was put in, it opened about three

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Speaker 1: million additional acres to public hunting and fishing. It's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a lot more in this one because it's expanded

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Speaker 1: in the two thousand and fourteen Farm bill. And so

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Speaker 1: I mean there's some positive stuff that is happening to

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Speaker 1: but access in the Northeast is a huge deal. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Can I can I interrupt your your walk around the

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Speaker 1: country again to ask about the farm bill because I

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Speaker 1: know that and looking at materials at t RC, TRCP

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Speaker 1: puts out and here and you talk in various ways.

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Speaker 1: You spent a lot of time, like like conservation is

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Speaker 1: very tied to the farm build You spent a lot

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Speaker 1: of time talking about what's in the farm bill, what

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Speaker 1: needs to be in the farm bill? How did how

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Speaker 1: is it that the farm bill has such wide reaching

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Speaker 1: implications for people to hunt and fish. Yes, of the

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Speaker 1: land in the US is privately owned and the majority

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Speaker 1: of that is an agricultural production, and so that is

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Speaker 1: a huge swath of land. And the Farm Bill is

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Speaker 1: the nation's single largest conservation program. Is five or six

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Speaker 1: billion dollars annual or in the over the course of

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Speaker 1: the Farm Bill that goes to private landowners to do

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Speaker 1: the right thing for conservation. And uh, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: been tremendously successful. I mean, originally, a lot of these

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Speaker 1: programs are created, you know, when farm prices are really

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Speaker 1: bad back in the nineteen eighties and they you know,

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Speaker 1: you needed farmers, they needed some money in order not

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Speaker 1: to farm, and so that things like the Conservation Reserve

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Speaker 1: Program were created at that time as a way basically

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Speaker 1: a price support program. Well since then it's really become

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Speaker 1: an incredibly important conservation program. So it wasn't known the

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Speaker 1: effects of CRP fields like, it wasn't no one was

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Speaker 1: pushing that aspect of that bill for what it would

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Speaker 1: do for wildlife. They were looking at some people are

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Speaker 1: pushing at sure does this forever Folks like that. They

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Speaker 1: knew that, they knew it would be good, even though

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Speaker 1: the main goals taking land out of production to stabilize exactly.

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Speaker 1: And but the Qal the benefits that have had addition

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Speaker 1: to producing a ton of pheasant and you know upland

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Speaker 1: birds and waterfowl and things like that, is you know,

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Speaker 1: it is an incredibly important water quality program too, because

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Speaker 1: a lot of these you know, CRP strips are along

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Speaker 1: you know, streams and ravines in these areas that are

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Speaker 1: just not as productive to farm. So it has ancillary

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Speaker 1: benefits for that too. And the problem is that in

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Speaker 1: the you know, the last farm bill, the last farm

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Speaker 1: bill was done in two thousand and fourteen, and when

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Speaker 1: farm prices really high, you're talking about seven dollar corn,

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Speaker 1: and it was just very hard for conservation programs to compete.

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Speaker 1: And you were we were seeing millions of acres being

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Speaker 1: moved out of c RP and put into row production.

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Speaker 1: So the cap on c RP was reduced to twenty

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Speaker 1: four million acres. It had been at thirty six million

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Speaker 1: at one point. And now we have the exact opposite situation.

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Speaker 1: Farm prices are low, farmers are clamoring to get into

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Speaker 1: programs that they've so they can you know, having some

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Speaker 1: additional revenues so they don't have to you know, sell

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Speaker 1: off the farm or whatever. And so now we have

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Speaker 1: a program that is woefully inadequate to meet the demand.

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Speaker 1: Whereas we we couldn't fulfill that. There was way more

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Speaker 1: program there was demand five years ago. So so five

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Speaker 1: years ago people looked at it and they're like, well,

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Speaker 1: let's take some of the money out because people don't

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Speaker 1: want to use it, right exactly. So I told that

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Speaker 1: was going to be the new normal, right and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know so, and and that money was reinvested in

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Speaker 1: other programs like the regional conservation partnership programs and the

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Speaker 1: other things that are sort of longer term conservation you know,

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Speaker 1: wetlands type programs. You know EQUIP which is does a

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Speaker 1: lot of water and retrofitting of irrigation systems. So it was,

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Speaker 1: you know, the money was put into other places. But

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Speaker 1: conservation reserve program right now is you know, not nearly

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Speaker 1: big enough as it needs to be. So we're trying

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Speaker 1: to get that back up to like thirty two even

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Speaker 1: up to thirty six million. Who was in the next

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Speaker 1: farm bill, And there's people waiting in line to get

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Speaker 1: it waiting in line. Yeah, there was, you know, any

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Speaker 1: equery you open up, people will sign up for it immediately.

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Speaker 1: So but it's just not happening. And that has to

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Speaker 1: be done on the Farm Bill, but that costs a

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Speaker 1: lot of money, and uh, but I would argue that

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Speaker 1: the benefits and this especially if you're not going to

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Speaker 1: you know, take a regulatory approach to things like clean water,

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Speaker 1: you better be doubling down on the voluntary approaches. And

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Speaker 1: that's you know, that's the Farm Bill. So that's when

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Speaker 1: may challenge we're faced to come up here. But that's

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Speaker 1: a national program. So even if we're doing the regional

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Speaker 1: walk around the country. You know, that program is huge

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Speaker 1: in the farm built in the prairie pot holes states,

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Speaker 1: but it's a big deal even in place like New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia.

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Speaker 1: They all have pretty significant agricultural economies. So it's a

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Speaker 1: it is a program that really impacts everybody. So that's

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Speaker 1: the main program for private land conservation there. And it

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Speaker 1: has that public access component of it too, So that's

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Speaker 1: a big deal. I think if you sort of you

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Speaker 1: we wandered down towards the southeast. Yeah, we're dealing with

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of you know, pretty significant water

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Speaker 1: quality issues, which you know stem from things like you know,

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Speaker 1: too much fertilizers and pesticides on fields. But you look

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Speaker 1: at the dead zones have been created off the coast

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Speaker 1: of Florida the last couple of years. And we had

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Speaker 1: sort of the dirty water coming out of Lake Cocechobee,

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Speaker 1: and you know, that really impacted the recreational fishing industry

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Speaker 1: both the east and the west coast of Florida. And uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you get down to Florida and it's

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Speaker 1: after these hurricane especially, I mean, at some point folks

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Speaker 1: have really got to bite the bullet and do us

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Speaker 1: necessary to restore it as every glaze, because that is

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Speaker 1: the natural sponge for that entire system. And if we

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Speaker 1: don't have that working, you're gonna exacerbate the flooding, the

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Speaker 1: pollution problems, runoff problems. Yeah, that we're seeing there, and

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Speaker 1: we're not just seeing it there. We're seeing you know,

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Speaker 1: record dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico because all

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Speaker 1: the crap is coming down the Mississippi River. So we've

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Speaker 1: seen dead zones in you know, Lake Erie. You know.

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Speaker 1: So the dead zone is just get too much essentially nutrigen, nutrients, nitrogen,

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Speaker 1: and phosphorus in that water and it comes down and

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Speaker 1: you get these algal blooms, kill off everything underneath them

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Speaker 1: coming down from chemical fertilizers and animal waste. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: I mean it also could be from the people putting

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Speaker 1: it on their lawns. They could be from septic tanks.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we rent a lot of Florida right even

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Speaker 1: around the Chesapeake Bay. You know, the issue is you know,

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Speaker 1: septic tanks. So but you know, we have just this

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Speaker 1: water quality pro problems, especially in the eastern part of

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Speaker 1: the country, which is so much more a lot more people,

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Speaker 1: uh that we're gonna have to you know, get and

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Speaker 1: get a handle on. And that doesn't even think about

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Speaker 1: things like Flint, Michigan, where we have you know, major

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Speaker 1: water quality problems with drinking water. So I'd say that

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Speaker 1: is a major deal. And then we even get into that,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of Midwest and the farm country, and

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Speaker 1: we've talked about the farm bill, but you know, that

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Speaker 1: is a place where you know, we I think we

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Speaker 1: really need to invest in terms of the next farm

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Speaker 1: bill and habitat for wealth, source of species, but awesome

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Speaker 1: water quality. We moved out to the West, I mean obviously,

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Speaker 1: then we're talking about the public land states, and that's

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Speaker 1: been a lot of our focus for the past seven

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Speaker 1: years since I've been there. Uh is sort of one

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Speaker 1: knocking back this notion that for some reason we ought

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Speaker 1: to be getting rid of our public lands, either selling

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Speaker 1: him off or transferring to the States, and that was

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Speaker 1: you know, those ideas been kicked around forever since the

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Speaker 1: time of Theodore Roosevelt. But they gave some traction back

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties and the sage Brush Rebellion. But

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Speaker 1: it was kind of can you stop stop on all

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Speaker 1: these to explain a little bit like sure, like like

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Speaker 1: talk about how it was, how controversial it was in

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Speaker 1: Roosevelt's time, I mean, and then and explained the stage

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Speaker 1: brush rebellion and then the new iteration. So you know,

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Speaker 1: think about, you know, what Roosevelt was doing. And you know,

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Speaker 1: and Roosevelt obviously was not a guy who was shy

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Speaker 1: about taking on controversy, I mean, trust busting and all

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Speaker 1: the rest. But you know, he had been out to Dakota's,

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Speaker 1: he had been you know, around the West, and and

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Speaker 1: he had you know, really sort of credited the you know,

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Speaker 1: the wild lands of this country to make him the

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Speaker 1: man that he was, and that was hunting in Maine

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Speaker 1: in the Adirondecks. It was his time was spent in

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Speaker 1: North Dakota after his wife died, and he wanted all

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Speaker 1: Americans to have that experience. And so what he did

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Speaker 1: was we had that time, we were still in the

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Speaker 1: process of getting rid of public lands, had the Homestead Act,

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Speaker 1: and you know, there was no real you know thought

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Speaker 1: at that time of conserving him. But it was really

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Speaker 1: what he saw back in New York State when he

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Speaker 1: was you know, even before he was governor. You know,

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Speaker 1: they created the Adirondack Park. The Catskill Park wasn't because

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Speaker 1: you know, just the preserve of open lands at that time.

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Speaker 1: It has had a lot to do with the fact

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Speaker 1: that you know, that was a drinking order system in

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Speaker 1: New York City, in Albany and you know a lot

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Speaker 1: of the municipalities in New York and they recognized it

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Speaker 1: as being clear cut and you were getting fires and

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Speaker 1: you know, huge erosion that you know, it was impacting

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Speaker 1: folks way downstream. So they created a six million acre

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Speaker 1: park called the Adirondack Park in New York, of which

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Speaker 1: half of it was you know, public and the other

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Speaker 1: half was private. But then heavily regulated within that the

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Speaker 1: blue line as they call it, and you know, that

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Speaker 1: became a model that Roosevelt, you know, saw it could

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Speaker 1: be done for the rest of the and so at

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Speaker 1: that time you were getting the you know, he would

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Speaker 1: have gone out there. He had seen it. You were

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Speaker 1: getting you know, you all of Stone had been created

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Speaker 1: back in the eighteen eighties, so they were starting to

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Speaker 1: be this burdening, burgeoning conservation movement to protect these special places.

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Speaker 1: And Roosevelt recognized they passed the Antiquities Act back then,

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Speaker 1: and he set aside two hundred and thirty million acres

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Speaker 1: during his presidency for the people in perpetuity and the

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Speaker 1: guys that he had to fight, where the timber barons,

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Speaker 1: the mining you know barons. I mean, it was all

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Speaker 1: these sort of captainets of industry who had planned on

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Speaker 1: making a lot of money off these lands at some point.

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Speaker 1: But you know, basically, through sheer force of personality and

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Speaker 1: you know, his political skills, he was able to accomplish that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, that sort of set the standard you know,

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Speaker 1: for you know, what was carried on for generations. We

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Speaker 1: now have about six d forty million acres of public

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Speaker 1: lands in this country. A lot of that was added

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Speaker 1: in when Alaska came into the nation, but it's you know,

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Speaker 1: a remarkable resource. Yeah, there was so much opposition to

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Speaker 1: Roosevelt's designation and of national forest, Like, you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of the terminology was different. You know, he had

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Speaker 1: preserves and other things and timber preserves. But there's so

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Speaker 1: much opposition to what he was doing that at one

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Speaker 1: point he had a bill coming that would prohibit the

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Speaker 1: president's ability to to do this, and he thought about

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Speaker 1: vetoing it, but he knew that his Vieto would get

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Speaker 1: over ridden. So there was like, like it's rare to

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Speaker 1: get that kind of consensus that you can override a

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Speaker 1: presidential veto, and that's how unpopular. What he was doing

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Speaker 1: was amazing. And I was like the point out that

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Speaker 1: they then went carved his face into a giant mountain.

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Speaker 1: Yes they did, So he was onto something. But well

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Speaker 1: and he was you know, I mean obviously, I mean

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Speaker 1: it was controversial of the time, but I think that

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Speaker 1: you know, the legacy he created back then has been

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Speaker 1: carried on, amplified, you know, presidents ever since. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you had a tremendous amount of you know, new parks

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Speaker 1: and you know, forests were created under FDR, and he

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Speaker 1: created the whole c C C to put people back

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Speaker 1: to work doing conservation projects. You know, we had the

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Speaker 1: Interstate Highway Program under Roosevelt, I mean the Eisenhower which

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Speaker 1: really allowed people finally get out and see a lot

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Speaker 1: of these places. And then you know, under Johnson's administration

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixties, you have things like the Wilderness Act,

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Speaker 1: land Water Conservation Fund Act, you know, which you know

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Speaker 1: was you know, these seminal parts of you know, the

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Speaker 1: modern conservation fabric. We get to Nixon, who probably never

403
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Speaker 1: went outside his whole life, but he arguably was the

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Speaker 1: greatest environmental president since Roosevelt. Mean e PA was created,

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Speaker 1: to Clean Water Act, NIPA Dangerous Species Act. All these

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Speaker 1: came during Nixon's time, not because he thought it was

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Speaker 1: something he was passionate about, but he saw it his

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Speaker 1: way of healing the country after a Vietnam you know

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Speaker 1: race riots, yeah, Watergate at that time, and this was

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Speaker 1: something that could bring the country together. So I mean

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Speaker 1: that was the sort of public lands and the environment.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're not a partisan issue at all. At

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Speaker 1: that time. The Wilderness Act in the US Senate had

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Speaker 1: nine votes. The dissenting vote thought it didn't go far enough. Imagine,

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Speaker 1: I mean land and Water Conservation Fund Act had basically

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Speaker 1: the same vote count, you know. So, I mean these

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Speaker 1: things were incredibly popular, and uh, you know, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until you really it was sort of in the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the nineteen eighties, but the nineties got amplified and

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Speaker 1: he's all of a sudden became partisan issues. So what

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Speaker 1: happened with the stage Brush Rebellion, I mean it was

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Speaker 1: you know, it was Reagan, you know, sort of paid

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Speaker 1: homage to it. You know, he as he was campaigning

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Speaker 1: for office, you know, he's expressed support for the folks

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Speaker 1: that wanted the federal government off their back. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was sort of political rhetoric. Rhetoric for him. He

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Speaker 1: ended up and adding about ten millions of acres of

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Speaker 1: wilderness during his tenure as president. Part but and at

429
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:50,959
Speaker 1: that time, it was easy to write it off as

430
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,920
Speaker 1: a bunch of kooks. And then you had, you know,

431
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,479
Speaker 1: a look at later he had the shovel Brigade and Elko,

432
00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,400
Speaker 1: where the four Service is going to close this road

433
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 1: to an outhouse, and you had the local was rising

434
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 1: up in a national shovel brigade to go and open

435
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 1: the road back up. I mean, it was easy to

436
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 1: write off this whole movement as cookie and since then,

437
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 1: as you know, a lot of money has gone into it.

438
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 1: And the same people that vote fought Roosevelt back in

439
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 1: the nineteen teens, you know, same industries. You know, we're back,

440
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 1: you know, doing the same thing, but this time it

441
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 1: was much more sophisticated. They've been funding things like the

442
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 1: American Legislative Legislative Exchange Council ALEC, too craft model legislation

443
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,399
Speaker 1: for states demanding that the Feds turned back their lands

444
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 1: to them. You have you know, nonprofits created to do

445
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 1: nothing but lobby against public lands, all funded by industry.

446
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 1: And you know, so you have a much more sophisticated

447
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: effort to chip away at that federal state, which you

448
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 1: also had starting with Reagan and David Stockman, there was

449
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 1: a whole theory of shrinking federal government known as you know,

450
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 1: starving the beast, that if you keep systematically denying the

451
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 1: agencies the funds they need to operate, eventually you shrink

452
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 1: government to the size and over North with his famous

453
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 1: quote was to the size where you can drown it

454
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: in the bathtub. It's eloquent. Yeah, and it hasn't done

455
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,919
Speaker 1: a great job in terms of you know, entitlement spending,

456
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 1: defense spending, anything like that, but did pretty darn good

457
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: job of cutting back the authority and the ability of

458
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 1: the agencies to do their jobs. And what that did

459
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 1: is just continually breed discontent locally that you know, the

460
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 1: Forest Service doesn't manage this forest and we're getting these

461
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 1: big fires, which is all true, and you know, so

462
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 1: I think there's a you know, so that's been a

463
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,160
Speaker 1: well orchestrated campaign to sort of keep the agencies from

464
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: getting the resources they need to operate. You know, well,

465
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: I mean the Forest Service today I think has something

466
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: like eighteen hundred campgrounds that are closed because they can't

467
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: afford to keep them open. And you can take you can,

468
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: you can complain all you want about you know, the

469
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,159
Speaker 1: agencies priorities and they could do a better job with

470
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: this and that, and you know that's probably legitimate debate

471
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: to have. But you know that the idea that they're

472
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 1: going to do more with less, you know, they're not.

473
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: They're gonna do less with less, and they have been

474
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 1: for years. Yeah, it's a cynical approach. And and you

475
00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 1: know there's that reason. I don't know where it ended up.

476
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: You I'm sure you know the answer to this, the

477
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: I think it was, was it six to two? That's

478
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: gonna be the one that stripped law enforcement and that

479
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 1: that's just the case. That's the case of just like

480
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 1: you said, like shrinking until you can draw in the bathtub,

481
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: to strip law enforcement capabilities from the Forest Service and

482
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,719
Speaker 1: the Bureau Land Management. Rob Bishop has another bill right

483
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: now and they had a hearing on it last week. Um,

484
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: you know, I can't remember how the you know what

485
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: the title is, but essentially what it does is turn

486
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 1: over wail and gas permitting and development authorities to the

487
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: states and away from the Feds. And oh, by the way,

488
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: you don't have to comply with NIPA or the Endangered

489
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: Species Act or the Administrative Administrative Procedures Act. So essentially

490
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: waves all the federal requirements. You know, the states you

491
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: know oversee it all. Yeah, but we're the ones, you know,

492
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: still paying for everything on those agencies lands paying for

493
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: a short term long term. Can we set up something

494
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: where maybe if you live in those states where they

495
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 1: let that happen, and then like ten or twenty years

496
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: down the line, when all those people want to move

497
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: somewhere else, that we can somehow be like no, no, no, no,

498
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 1: Now you're living in Utah when you let all that happen,

499
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: so you don't get to come up here to Montana

500
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: or maybe living Okay. Oh so anyway, the public lands

501
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: issue has been a big one, and I think that

502
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, listen, you guys were you know, Steve,

503
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: you were instrumental in this sort of pushback against Jason

504
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: chafets an HR six one. The whole idea of just

505
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: selling off lands to quote balance the budge, which I

506
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 1: feel like that idea is starting to fade though, and

507
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: it's becoming a different now. It's like, I feel like

508
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: that idea is starting to fade, and what the new

509
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: idea is is you'll be like, Okay, well maintain the

510
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: ownership structure that we have, but we'll just strip away

511
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: all the protections we have for those lands so that

512
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: they become like industry playgrounds. Right, So you're you're saying

513
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: this the change in tactics now to you know, just

514
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: the chipping away at the federal authorities, and you know

515
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 1: that's gonna be the next battleground. In fact, we've just

516
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: launched a whole new site called sport some this country

517
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 1: dot Org. You know that basically the mantras is not

518
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: enough just to keep it public and we need to

519
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 1: and it as sort of a group of tenants that

520
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 1: we ought to demand from our public lands. They need

521
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 1: to be well funded, yeah, they etcetera. I mean the

522
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: things that you know we need, no they need. You know,

523
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 1: it's not enough just to keep the public and then

524
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 1: not getting the resources they need to manage them. That's

525
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: not the way it works. Okay, so not I'll let

526
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,479
Speaker 1: you continue on to other parts. Imagine you're gonna want

527
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: to jump over to California, maybe the desert southwest. I

528
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, you know, it's uh, I mean, what

529
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 1: we're seeing right now is all the fire and stuff.

530
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: And you know, obviously California is a little bit different

531
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: situation because that's mostly private lands out there. But you know,

532
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:41,719
Speaker 1: in the Northwest where you had you know, I mean

533
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: obviously you spent a lot of time in Montana in

534
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: that state. You know that burned a lot of acres

535
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: this year, twenties some odd different major fires over the

536
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: course of the summer, and you know we're going to

537
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 1: be seeing probably a lot more of that. One the

538
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 1: climate is changing, but two is you know, we've just

539
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: have been a senate su poor job of managing these

540
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: lands for so long that we have this you know,

541
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: big fuel burden built up at that just is not sustainable.

542
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, we've been trying, and of course you know

543
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: that feeds right into the narrative while we need to

544
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: go in and clear cut him, and that's not the

545
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: that's not the goal. I mean, sure someplaces maybe you

546
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: want to do that, but we just need to do

547
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: is just basic sensible forest management, especially you know near

548
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: the net urban interface, you know where a lot of

549
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 1: the problems are. And you know, again that requires some money,

550
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: and there are different ways of doing it, and there

551
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: are some really you know, sort of cool models of

552
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: groups like Turkey Federation and others going in there and

553
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: actually doing the sales for the forest service and returning

554
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: you know that what they called stewardship contracting, returning a

555
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: lot of that money back into improvement of the resource.

556
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: So you can get creative in this stuff. But because

557
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: people people don't want to spend the money preventatively, they'd

558
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 1: rather just have catastrophic financial losses after big fires. Yeah apparently, Yeah,

559
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: so I mean you cynically again, that sort of pays

560
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: into that narrative that Jesus FEDS can't be trusted with

561
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: any of this stuff. But the fact is that, you know,

562
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: if they were, you know, they weren't. The way we

563
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: treat fire overall as budget issue is crazy. It's the

564
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: only national disaster that's not considered a natural disaster, so hurricanes, tornadoes,

565
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,719
Speaker 1: any of that is comes out of FEMA, and UH

566
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: fire has to come out of the core agency budget.

567
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: So as a result, I think in the nineteen nineties,

568
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: the agency force er is suspending about seventeen percent was

569
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: budget fighting fires. Today it's in that fifty five to

570
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: sixty percent range, which means they literally have no money

571
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: to do anything else like preventing future fires. So it's

572
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: just an insane you know, the way we do this,

573
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: And there's we may actually get that past this year

574
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: to change that, and you know, so you have you know,

575
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: the catastrophic fires then get paid for in emergency funds

576
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: so they don't have to come out of the agency's hide.

577
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: But it's just insane the way we deal with this.

578
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: Right now, I was gonna ask about that, like how

579
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: have people always been trying to work to to change that,

580
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: to make it tourn them into well, I mean hasn't

581
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 1: been an issue until the last twenty years when these

582
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: sort of catasty profit fires really started cutting down. So

583
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: but since then, yeah, um, and we thought we had

584
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: to deal several times. And during the abadministration that got

585
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: killed the last second, and largely got killed because of

586
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, sort of the radical environmental community not wanting

587
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: to sort of you know, see a return to the

588
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 1: old days of major clearcuts, which is not what this

589
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 1: would do at all. And because it was always sort

590
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 1: of combined with the the way you change the budgeting

591
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: with some modest forest reform to make it easier to

592
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: actually go in there and do some of this management.

593
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, because part of the issue too

594
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: is that anytime a timber sales proposed, you know, you're

595
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: gonna go three years of litigation. You had to get

596
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: you before you actually get in a cutney wood. And

597
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: the meantime, a bunch of mills are already closed in

598
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: the West, so it's much harder to do. So we

599
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: we gotta get this thing fixed and fixed pretty fast,

600
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: and nobody wants to go back to the old days

601
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: of just you know, sort of way over harvest and

602
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: you know the spot at owl controversies and all that,

603
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: but there's a happy median in their some place and

604
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: if you do, you're good. Forest management is good for

605
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: wildlife generally, you know, good for all sorts of things.

606
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: You know, there's an area where forest fires and the

607
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: public lands debate came together. Maybe you can touch on

608
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: that real quick, where some states had looked at just

609
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: ran models to see what the world would look like

610
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: should all this land fall into the states. Are you

611
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: familiar with this? No, I haven't seen that. And remember

612
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: some stuff came out of Wyoming where they looked at

613
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: just the forest fire costs because states don't. States need

614
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: to run on a balance budget, well right, and they

615
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,479
Speaker 1: when they were and I don't know, I don't even

616
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: know whose offices came up, but someone just took a

617
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: look at it and they're like, you know, as far

618
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: as US assuming control of this massive amount of federal

619
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: land banks, but no thanks, we couldn't even pay for

620
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: the firefighting. Well, I mean that's and you have governors

621
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: like Matt Meade in Wyoming just saying we couldn't afford

622
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: to take over these lands. And people have to remember

623
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: too that you know, state lands and federal lands have

624
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: very different end dates. Seeing a lot of the states,

625
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: you know, the state lands are used to maximize revenue,

626
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: largely for education in the state, and they don't have

627
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: that multiple use mandate that the federal lands too, so

628
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: it would be a very different management. But you know

629
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: the point about fire, you just you couldn't pay for it.

630
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: So if you're a Republican you know, Western governor legislature,

631
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you have a catastrophic fire,

632
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: or in your projections about oil being a hundred dollars

633
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,719
Speaker 1: of barrel, it's only fifty dollars a barrel, and you're

634
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: gonna run a deficit. You have a couple of choices.

635
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: You can either raise taxes or you can sell off

636
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: an asset. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know,

637
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: you know what, they probably do the asset in the land. Yeah, exactly. Um, Okay,

638
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 1: what's next in the walk around the country. Well, I

639
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: mean I think that uh we can you move up

640
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,239
Speaker 1: toward Alaska, and I mean, obviously you've got a lot

641
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: of experience up there. But Scott Pruett, the director of

642
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, has just opened

643
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: up you know, basically given the green light to the

644
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: Pebble Partnership to proceed with permitting for the Pebble Mine

645
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: in Alaska, which would be potentially you know the world's

646
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: largest open pit copper or gold mine, you know, right

647
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: at the headquarters of the new Segak and Queejack rivers,

648
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: which are the most predictive salmon rivers in the world.

649
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: The ABA administration had you know, sort of laid out

650
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: some very high hurdles in any mind in that area

651
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: would have to clear in order to get permitted, and

652
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: essentially you know, doing a veto of that mind before

653
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: what every even got applied for permits because the company

654
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: had laid out in his sec filings you know what

655
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: it intended to do, which was to create a massive

656
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: mine up there. And as reason it's called the pebble

657
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,959
Speaker 1: deposit is that's it's not just one deposits scattered all

658
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: over the place like a bunch of little pebbles. So

659
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: there's no way to go in there and do a

660
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: little bit of mine. It wouldn't be economical. The only

661
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: way it makes sense is to had do a really

662
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: big mine, which then requires really big infrastructure and it

663
00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: require eternal mitigation because you have to create the world's

664
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: you know, probably the world's largest tailing pond, and uh,

665
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: you know, you have to make sure that doesn't fail,

666
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: because it fails, it takes out you know, those rivers,

667
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: and that would require literally mitigation and basically remediation forever.

668
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: It's hard to understand who is for Pebble Mind except

669
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: for the people who stand to run the business, because

670
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: it's one of those few issues where the commercial fishing industry, hunters,

671
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: recreational fishermen, the tribes, tourism, no one wants it. I

672
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: mean even you know, the former Senator Ted Stevens, you know,

673
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: very Republican conservative senator, you know, said that this was

674
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: the wrong mind and the wrong place, which it absolutely is.

675
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: So it doesn't even have the sort of traditional political

676
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: allies that most development projects in Alaska do. But that

677
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: has not stopped the proponents from going to the Trump

678
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: administration and getting them do very quickly without even look

679
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: talking to their scientific team. And there's a great piece

680
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: that CNN did on this, you know, just last week

681
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: or the week before, you know, I decided to green

682
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: light the mind again and literally not even talking to

683
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: their scientific team, but the public comment period has ended

684
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: just recently, is that that's probably not gonna matter. But

685
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: that's not gonna matter. I mean, listen, I mean that

686
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: we're gonna still beat this mine because you know why

687
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: it'll get beaten, because you go ahead and I'll tell

688
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: you why I think it'll get beaten. Oh my god,

689
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: I love to hear your theory. First. I think it'll

690
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: get beaten because it will become a it will become

691
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: maybe one of the biggest standoffs. I mean, like literally

692
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: a standoff. I think that there's people are so vested

693
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: in saving that area that I think that you will

694
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: see a you will see a mass gathering of such

695
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: disparate types of individuals who are interested in wild lands

696
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: and wildlife physically there on the ground. I just think that,

697
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: like I think that if it came down to like

698
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: breaking ground, I just don't think it will happen, because

699
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: it has just it's just gotten. I mean, that area

700
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: has gone from being a place that few people really

701
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: knew about to becoming almost a household term. And it's

702
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: one of those I think it's gonna be one of those,

703
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: and like those environmental or conservation fights that really motivates

704
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,919
Speaker 1: people to get involved on the ground, and I don't

705
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 1: think it will ever be like oh they beat us legally,

706
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 1: we give up. Never, it won't be like that. And

707
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: but the problem is that you know these you know,

708
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to kill these mining proposals like zombies.

709
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: Every time, if you think it's dead, it pops up

710
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: by some other name. And we saw that in the

711
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: Blackfoot in Montana, which we finally managed to kill, but

712
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: it was twenty years. Different mind proposals come up, you know,

713
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: up there with the McDonald you know mine. But no,

714
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: I mean what I think the public partnership, the conventional wisdom,

715
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: what they're trying to do now is to give it

716
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: enough you know, legs, enough momentum that you know, they

717
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: can get some investors and then sell out. And because

718
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: you know, I think that there's I think it's gonna

719
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: be a very hard lift for this thing to be developed.

720
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, I think it's something we ought

721
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: to try to, you know, kill once and for all.

722
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,479
Speaker 1: Now with the you know, the steak through the heart,

723
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: it was it was trying to remember the year I

724
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: didn't even like, I didn't even have a kid yet. Okay,

725
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: my kids, my oldest kids seven, I didn't even have

726
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: a kid yet, and I was at the thing about

727
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: pebble mind um at a fundraiser for you know, to

728
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 1: fight pebble mind. And I remember saying then, I'm like,

729
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: they'll never build this mind. What are you talking about?

730
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: And then since then I've grown increasingly fearful. Yeah. No,

731
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: I mean when you when you can't kill it, then

732
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: it's you know, still alive, and it just keeps popping

733
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: back up, and you know the consequence is, yeah, of

734
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: it being built are just so dramatic that I don't

735
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: think any of us can get complacent on this one. Yeah. Well,

736
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: you said, the most productive salmon fishery in the world,

737
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: significant portion of all salmon in this country come out

738
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: of there, and his supports and entire economy up there,

739
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: commercial fisherman, recreational lodges, you know, hunting industry is you know,

740
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: phenomenal around there. And would you know, be totally changed

741
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: if that mind goes in. And plus you don't just

742
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: pop up a mind. You put in the roads, you

743
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: put it, you gotta build a power plant, you gotta

744
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: do the tailing ponds. I mean, this is major industrial development. Yeah,

745
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: that's one of the biggest fears about the mind is

746
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: as you said, it has a large open pit. Is

747
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 1: so I have a large lit'll create a large lake

748
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: of toxic material. Correct in an active seismic Yeah, in

749
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: a in a volcanically or sorry, seismically active area, well,

750
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: a lot of volcanoes. So you know those two go

751
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: hand and held back by an earth and damn I

752
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: think the one of the longest earth and damn held

753
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: tailor the longest earth and dam contained tailing ponds in

754
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: the world. It would become. I mean, of course, now

755
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:13,959
Speaker 1: the company is saying, no, no, we're just talking about

756
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,280
Speaker 1: a little mine and we're not talking about what ignore

757
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: what we said in our SEC filings. This is gonna

758
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: be a little bit of mine. It's not gonna cause

759
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: me damage. And you know, just nobody's gonna believe that

760
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: except maybe Scott Pruett. Yeah, can you talk about how

761
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: how much are you? How much can you? Can you

762
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: talk about Scott pru It. I mean, I don't know

763
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 1: the guy, I've never met him, but everything he's done

764
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,959
Speaker 1: has been anti conservation. I mean, usually there's a certain

765
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,479
Speaker 1: amount of balance, even if there isn't, I mean, there's

766
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: a rhetorical balance, there's none now. I mean it's all

767
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: about you know, just giving industry. It's you know, green

768
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: light cutting back and regulations. Listen, nobody loves the e

769
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: p A and nobody loves you know, regulations, nobody loves bureaucrats.

770
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: But you know, I'm I remember as a kid, you know,

771
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: the Cuyahoga burning in Ohio, and you know, it's we

772
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,959
Speaker 1: have come so far that I don't think anybody really

773
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 1: wants to go back to the battle days, but that

774
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: you go ahead. I was just gonna say that maybe

775
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: why because we don't have like a river that's on

776
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: fire right now, and that's why we're so complacent about

777
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: it and letting something like that happen. And I think

778
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: you're exactly right. And and listen, EPA has done all

779
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: sorts of stupid stuff over the years, like a lot

780
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: of overreaching. There's some legitimate there's some legitimate complaints, but

781
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's ever caused to I got

782
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: complaints with my wife, right There's like legitimate complaints that

783
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: people have, but it's like you don't you know, yeah, no,

784
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 1: it's burning damn house down. So now it's been really

785
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: really distressing to see but I mean there are some

786
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: bed rock environmental laws that still have to be unless

787
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: Congress wants to go in and mental laws, which you

788
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 1: can't do. I mean they could do, but they can't.

789
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: They can't even pass a new post office. Um. You know,

790
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: it's it's gonna be very hard for Scott Prue to

791
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: get away with a lot of this stuff. So what

792
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: is it like? I know, you don't know him, and

793
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: and and I don't know him, and I'm sure that

794
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: he uh, absolutely convinced that he loves his family and

795
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: loves his country. What is the vision? Like, what is

796
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: the vision unfederal industry and unfederal sort of capitalism, thinking

797
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 1: that it'll just that they'll find a soft spot down

798
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: the road and and and and uh and retain some

799
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: semblance of clean air and clean water and wildlife. And

800
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: I guess that's fishing resource. I guess that's the thinking.

801
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: I don't get it. I mean, sure, there are a

802
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: lot of you know, a lot of companies are doing

803
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: a good job out there, and they're good actors, and

804
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: I trust some of them to do the right thing.

805
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: But I also know that there's a place in this

806
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: country for actually a strong regulation because people don't always

807
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: do the right thing, particularly when a lot of money

808
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 1: is involved. I was having a conversation with you, Measure.

809
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 1: I was having a conversation with Governor Mead from Wyloming

810
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: and UH and he was telling me something that that

811
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: kind of made me feel better about things in some

812
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: way where he was like some of like when it

813
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,479
Speaker 1: comes to mineral and energy extraction in his state. He's

814
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: found that like some of the more forward thinking companies

815
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: working on the ground UH do are looking ahead, Like

816
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: like people in the mental mintal extraction industry, there are

817
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: some forward thinking companies that are looking ahead for environmental

818
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: issues and conservation because they're in there for the long run.

819
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: And they realized that that creating trouble on the ground

820
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: causes a lot of problems for their business. And he

821
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: was speaking particularly to sage grounse issues, because the one

822
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: sure way to screw yourself for for doing business on

823
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 1: the ground and whelming was to push the sage grouse

824
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: down into such low numbers and habitat destruction that it

825
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: would need to be listed on the Endangered Species Act.

826
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: So he was talking like a smart company, it's gonna

827
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: see that problem and whatever your motivations whether you love

828
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 1: the bird or not, you're gonna see that problem. It's like,

829
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: what's good for that bird is gonna be good for

830
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: our business? At this point, what industry wants a certainty,

831
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: I mean responsible industry. They want to know what the

832
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: rules are. They don't want to, you know, swinging back

833
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: and forth every four or eight year is when of

834
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: new administration is in place. And you're exactly right, and

835
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: you know that means right that you know, something like

836
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: the sage grouse is a long term play because it's

837
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: not just the sage grouse. And if the sage grouse

838
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: trust going down, there are three fifty other species that

839
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: fend on that same ecosystem, and you're gonna start have

840
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: this cascade of listings that potentially could shut down everything

841
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: or just to cause the undoing of the Dangerous Species Act.

842
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: And I don't think anybody well, I mean some people do,

843
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,479
Speaker 1: but most people really don't want that to happen. And

844
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, industry is I think actually

845
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 1: you're gonna start seeing industry pushing back pretty hard against

846
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: what the administration is doing on things like you know,

847
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: water and air. And I think that you're already seeing

848
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: that in the climate front because the industries I think

849
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 1: recognize that, you know, climate change is real. You know,

850
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: they've got to do something about it, you know, like

851
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 1: things like the Paris Agreement where you know, eminently reasonable

852
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,919
Speaker 1: and voluntary, and you know it does not help them

853
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 1: in their businesses to have you know, say, clean energy

854
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: technologies you know coming out of China and not out

855
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: of the US. So we're not going to go back

856
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: to the days of you know, West Virginia fueling the

857
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: nation by coal. I mean, it's just not gonna happen.

858
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: It's not gonna happen because the reason is not because

859
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: of anything Barack Obama did. It's because you know, gas

860
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: is you know, so much cheaper than coal now ye

861
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: natural gas, and so I mean that's the crazy thing

862
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: here is we're kind of letting the tail wag the

863
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 1: dog on a lot of those things are being proposed,

864
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: and uh, you know it's not the future. I mean,

865
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: we need to be looking forward, not in the rear

866
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: view mirror all the time. M Can we move on?

867
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: And can you give me explain for people? Um, unless

868
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: you think this is boring, I don't think it is.

869
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: The land like the land and water conservation fund and

870
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: why it's always in the news. So nineteen sixty five

871
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: there was a deal struck when oil and gas companies

872
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: wanted to start developing the Outer Continental Shelf. And uh

873
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: so that's the basically offshore oil and gas to fundment

874
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: and which the federal government regulates, so because it's in

875
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: our waters but not owned by any exactly, so it's

876
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: the sort of the three. It's outside the state waters,

877
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 1: it's out in federal waters, and there was obviously Gulf

878
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: of Mexico off California. There are a lot of areas

879
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 1: that industry wanted to get and developed. And the quid

880
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: pro quo that was done at that time was in

881
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: terms of, in exchange for opening it up, you know,

882
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: the industry agreed to pay you know, into a fund

883
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: nine million dollars annually that would then be used for,

884
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: you know, to basically it's just developing a non renewable resource,

885
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: to invest in protecting you know, natural resources, and so

886
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: that was used for a land acquisition for city parks,

887
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: you know, for you know, basically outdoors things, boat launches, yep, yep.

888
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: So they're you know, like you know, in Montana, I

889
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: think about you know, seventy of the fishing access sites

890
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: were purchased, you know, by Land and Water Conservation Fund,

891
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: so it's you can be used for a bunch of

892
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: different things, you know, officuely, you know, use it to

893
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: buy in holdings and federal lands to sort of yeah,

894
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: just you know, make management easier and better. So it

895
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: has you know, a huge variety of benefits. Um The

896
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 1: problem is that Congress didn't require that money to be spent.

897
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: So instead of it just being like an entitlement, something

898
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: that automatically goes out after it comes in, it has

899
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: to get appropriated by Congress. So only one time in

900
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: the fifty two years of Land and Water Conservation Fund

901
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: has been fully funded, and every other year I'm not understanding.

902
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: So basically they said, here, the oil and gas industries

903
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 1: pay nine million dollars every year into a fund for land.

904
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: They're paying their they're paying their share, they're paying their share.

905
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: That the problem is that instead of going out the

906
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: way it had been intended by Congress, Congress raids that

907
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: money for other things or deficit reduction or whatever it

908
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: might be. So it's not protected in the way that

909
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 1: like Pittman robertson money, it has to stay on task

910
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: and get spent within the window of time and precisely

911
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: so it is you know, so that is what the

912
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: fight has always been, is that there was a deal cut,

913
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: but Congress has never lived up to this end of

914
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: the deal. Was it just a mistake or an oversight

915
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: that you didn't carry with it like a through plan.

916
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it depends on who you talk to. Um,

917
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: probably not. I think they thought Congress at that time

918
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: listening past unanimously. Basically it wasn't controversial. Everyone thought this

919
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: was a good idea. I don't think there was really

920
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: an intent at that time. It had to be made

921
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: mandatory because you know, who's gonna fight, you know, doing

922
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: this stuff and just the you know, but then you know,

923
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: things changed, So where does it stand now? Like so so,

924
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: like why do you always why did you see that?

925
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: You're always hearing about it? Well, let's see, it's is,

926
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of our community, the hunting and

927
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: fishing community is probably the single most important you know,

928
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: sort of access program we have in terms of providing

929
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: new access because you know, those areas and there's you

930
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: know a lot of them are used directly for I mean,

931
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 1: let's think about how the demographics have changed. In the

932
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: Western United States, you have the Forest Service a owns

933
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: all the mountaintops and the more productive river bottoms owned

934
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,439
Speaker 1: by private individuals. Old days, you can knock on anybody's door,

935
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 1: cross the land and get to the forest, go hunting

936
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: and fishing. You know, that's changed. You know, so you

937
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 1: have a lot of posted signs, you have a lot

938
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 1: of that lower lands least, it's just shut off a

939
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: whole bunch of access. So Land War Conservation Fund is

940
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: an incredibly important tool for sort of reconnecting the public

941
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: with a lot of their public lands. And it doesn't

942
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: all just outright acquisitions. It could be just you know,

943
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 1: buying an easement on some property that includes an access

944
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: easement or includes a conservation easement, and you know, so

945
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: it can be used in a lot of different ways.

946
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,760
Speaker 1: You can be used to know, maintain traditional forest management

947
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: practices on forest lands. But what it does is it

948
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: opens that land up to the public. So what's not

949
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 1: being done that needs to be done, Well, Congress needs

950
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: to appropriate the money is one, and so that's you know,

951
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: the first thing, and then there's a huge backlot of projects.

952
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: So I mean, if Congress were ever to kick out

953
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: you know, nine million dollars like they're supposed to, or

954
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: even four dred and fifty. You know, there are plenty

955
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: of projects in the queue waiting that are not controversial,

956
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: they're just waiting to be done. And it's also things

957
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: like historic battlefields and you know, things like that that

958
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: you can be purchased with this. So what needs to

959
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: happen is that Congress needs to you know, I mean

960
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: I think at this point it needs to go off budget,

961
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe maybe not the full you know,

962
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 1: Mike Simpson's got a bill in the House that would

963
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 1: you know, basically, you know, take four hundred fifty million

964
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: off budgets so it automatically goes the agencies every year

965
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 1: for these programs, and then the other four h fifty

966
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: mill end is dedicated to basically the maintenance backlog we

967
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: have on our national national parks, national forest, blm lands, refugees,

968
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 1: and one of these bills would make it take care

969
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: of itself for some number of years. Yeah, I mean,

970
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: it depends on the way the bill is written. It

971
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: could be forever. It could be five years, could be

972
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: ten years. I think you know, Simpsons is a ten

973
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: year program if I recall because it wasn't there. There

974
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 1: was previously a long there's like a long quiet period, right,

975
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: but then it expired. Yeah, so it was its expired

976
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,240
Speaker 1: two years ago. Congress did a three year reauthorization. Okay,

977
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: that's why that when I said, like, why you always

978
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,439
Speaker 1: hearing about it, I guess because it's just they're they're

979
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: doing short term renewals instead of long term rewal. And

980
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: the idea was to a short term renewal and then

981
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 1: try to find a longer term fix because I think

982
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: nobody was happy with the fact that it wasn't getting

983
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: the money that it needed. But that hasn't happened, and uh,

984
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: I don't think it's going to happen, So we'll see.

985
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, you know, it's supposed to expire

986
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: next year. Know, even if it expires, is not the

987
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: end of the world, because there plenty of federal programs

988
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: that have been expired and Congress still puts money into them.

989
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: So but it's it just makes it much more as

990
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: you know, tenuous, and I think that it's just bad

991
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: government too. I mean, you want, if this program is important,

992
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 1: you know, reauthorize it and make it work, but don't

993
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: play these games. Can you um do a similar thing

994
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: and break down on on clean water rulings and headwater

995
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 1: rulings and explain that. Yeah, so the whole issue is

996
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 1: and there were two Supreme Court decisions in the early

997
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: two thousands that you know, play you basically put into

998
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: question what is and what is not under the jurisdiction

999
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: of the Clean Warter Act. And in particular, you know,

1000
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: wetlands will back up and even just just break down

1001
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 1: the Clean Water Act. So Clean Water Act was passed

1002
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: in the early nineties seventies, and it had to focus

1003
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 1: on navigable wars. That was the term in the bill,

1004
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: and it was all is interpreted until the two thousand's

1005
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: as navigable waters include even unnavigable like headwater streams that

1006
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: are critical to making that headwater, making that main river function,

1007
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: because you you, if you screw up you know the upstream,

1008
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,399
Speaker 1: you know those headwaters, you know those you know, the tributaries,

1009
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: is going to screw up the main stream stream as

1010
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: well as you know scientifically, you know, accurate interpretation. Same

1011
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: thing with wetlands. Yeah, you may not be able to

1012
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: flow to both through that wetland, but as you know,

1013
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: hydrologically connected to the river, it plays an important filter

1014
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 1: system and hence this under their jurisdiction. The Clean Water

1015
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 1: Act that was thrown into question and by these two

1016
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 1: Supreme Court decisions that basically told E. P. A. In

1017
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: Congress to go back and do a better job of

1018
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: defining what is and what is not in because there's

1019
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 1: a lot of ambiguity and confusion. And you know, as

1020
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 1: a farm pond, you know, a part of the Clean

1021
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,720
Speaker 1: Water Act is an irrigation ditch. They are all sorts

1022
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: of examples you can throw out, are that or ambiguous

1023
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: at the time, and so Congress of course didn't get

1024
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: his act together to you know, sort of revive and

1025
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: it's just like an annoyance that festered, like, yeah, so

1026
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 1: what are we talking about when we talk about what

1027
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: are these what constituency waters? And you had this ambiguity,

1028
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: you know, from the two thousands on about what was

1029
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: covering what was not covered, which basically meant that you know,

1030
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: if some you know dude wanted to go and you

1031
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: know dredge his you know, wetland in order to put

1032
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 1: in a parking lot, he could probably do it because

1033
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: you know, this this ambiguity under the courts. So the

1034
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: administration comes in and they you know, say, okay, if

1035
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna settle this, we're gonna do what the Supreme

1036
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: Court asked us to do. And they did several years

1037
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: of science that define you know, what isn't what is

1038
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: not hydrologically connected, and then produced a new rule called

1039
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: the Waters of the US. And it was controversial right

1040
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 1: from the bat because you know, obviously the developers and

1041
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, supposially especially the developers that have gotten sort

1042
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 1: of comfy with the ambiguity. So so the bo administration

1043
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: reduced a new rule. They did a several years of

1044
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 1: scientific study that you know, showed very clearly that headwater

1045
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 1: streams and adjacent wetlands were you know, hydrologically connected and

1046
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 1: hence you know, part of the Navigal waterways. And they

1047
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: released the rule, which immediately, you know, the developers, you

1048
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: know especially came out you know, sort of really hard

1049
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: against it. And uh, you know, in addition, they got

1050
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: a lot of the farm groups to come out against it. Two,

1051
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: even though the rules specifically exempted literally every agricultural practice

1052
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: you could think of, farm ponds, ditches, everything else were

1053
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,479
Speaker 1: specifically exempted by the rule. I think the real estate

1054
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: guys and developers are smart enough to know they should

1055
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:40,399
Speaker 1: not be the face of the opposition, so they got

1056
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 1: the farmers out there to be the face of the opposition.

1057
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: And as a result, it became you know, super controversial.

1058
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: A ton of lawsuits you know, were filed, and Trump

1059
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: administration or Trump when he was running for a Senate

1060
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: of the President excuse me, railed against it as you know,

1061
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: government overreach, which it isn't um And then so now

1062
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: Scott Pruett and E. P. A has taken the first

1063
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: steps to reverse it. Now it's not that easy just

1064
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,240
Speaker 1: immediately reverse or rule like that, because there is a

1065
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: long rulemaking process and the abodministration went through in order

1066
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 1: to put that rule into place, and they've got to

1067
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: unwind that through a similar type process and involves public

1068
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: comment and all the rest. So it is uh, I mean,

1069
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: it's going to be in the courts. It's gonna be

1070
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,760
Speaker 1: you know, fought administratively for the next few years, and

1071
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: there's just still gonna be a lot of ambiguity over

1072
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: what is and what is not covered. In the meantime,

1073
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: E p. A is probably not going to enforce many

1074
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: of these, you know, laws involving headwarter streams and wetlands.

1075
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: But yeah, we'll see it's uh, you know, gonna be

1076
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: a big battle for several years to come. But that's

1077
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: one where you know, I think the people really need

1078
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: to stand up and you know, really talk about the

1079
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: importance of clean war. Yeah, and it also have huge

1080
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: implications for fishing and waterfowl and and I mean every species.

1081
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 1: I mean and listen, I mean we have lost so

1082
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: many wetlands in this country. And uh, I mean the

1083
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: notion that you continue to keep draining wetlands and getting

1084
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: rid of them and you know, not have an impact

1085
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: on say waterfol hunting is just ludicrous. I mean, you've

1086
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 1: seen the flooding we've had this year, you know, and

1087
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,399
Speaker 1: you know, if you sort of restore wetlands, you take

1088
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,879
Speaker 1: care a lot of that without having to build more dikes. Um.

1089
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 1: You know, we've talked about already about the clean water

1090
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: problems off the coast of Florida and the Gulf of

1091
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: Mexico and Lake Erie. I mean, those are all you know,

1092
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: coming from not you know, a pipe someplace, but from

1093
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: runoff you know, coming off of fields and you know,

1094
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 1: coming off of pavements and parking lots. And people's lawns.

1095
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: So I mean that's where you know, there really needs

1096
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: to be something done here. And I mean I thought

1097
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: that personally what the administration proposed was not triconian at all.

1098
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 1: It was common sense. And uh, but now we're throwing

1099
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: back into this limbo because the you know, the changes

1100
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: coming out of ep A right now. So it's frustrating,

1101
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: but yeah, hopefully it will. We'll stick with it now,

1102
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 1: um the last one I want and then you then

1103
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 1: you can do whatever ones I have and a hit.

1104
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 1: But these are just things that I feel like people

1105
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: know there's something, but they don't really know what. Right.

1106
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:12,280
Speaker 1: He was hearing about it all the time, the interpretations

1107
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: of the Antiquities Act and how it applies to monument

1108
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 1: designations and what's going on right now. Can you do

1109
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 1: like a bit a little bit of a deep dive

1110
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: on that, okay, thank you? Um So, Antiquities Act was

1111
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: the vehicle by which Theodore Roosevelt used to protect two

1112
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 1: thirty million acres and it allows the president to you know,

1113
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: basically create monuments out of you know, the federal estate.

1114
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 1: And it's been used and the way the law was

1115
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 1: written originally it was for historical artifacts and unique places,

1116
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: and it was supposed to be a size you know

1117
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: equivalent to protect those special resources like battlefields, archaeological sites,

1118
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 1: and you know, but that's been interpreted very broadly seen

1119
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 1: by Roosevelt himself, you know, to you protect you know,

1120
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: the view sheds and you know watersheds and you know

1121
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: all the rest. That's what surprised me that you said earlier,

1122
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: I didn't know that he was using it for that.

1123
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: He used it for things that weren't like cultural sites.

1124
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 1: Grand Canyon got you know protected. It was one of

1125
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: you know, was his national monuments and you know that

1126
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 1: was a big chunk of land and yeah, yeah, there

1127
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 1: were a bunch of you know, cool cultural things in there,

1128
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: but it was basically the grandeur of the place that

1129
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: moved Roosevelt. And it's been your presidents to use it

1130
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: ever since, you know, to you know, set aside you

1131
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 1: know parcels big and small. And then you know, in

1132
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: the nineties seventies, you know, the BLM, you know, finally

1133
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: had his own organic act to the Federal Land Management

1134
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 1: Policy Act to Flip Month and it was you know

1135
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 1: that sort of you created a real agency for what

1136
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 1: had been basically the Bureau of Lands before, whose job

1137
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 1: had been to dispose of lands largely. And you know,

1138
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 1: since then, you know, there has been a variety of

1139
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: other monuments. You know, part of the problem here is that,

1140
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 1: you know, first of all, there's a lot of misconception

1141
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 1: about how the Antiquities Act works. First of all, it

1142
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 1: doesn't take private land. It only changes protections on federal

1143
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 1: lands that exists. I think that a lot of people

1144
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: don't understand that. So it's you know, this whole notion

1145
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: that it's a land grab is you know ludicrous, um.

1146
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: And it can be changed by Congress, and Congress has

1147
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: gone and changed them many times, sometimes adding protections. Generally,

1148
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: you know, they've taken a monument turned into a national

1149
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: park and you know, so Congress, you know, first of all,

1150
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: Congress can go back and if they don't like the

1151
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: Grand Staircase Monument or bearers ears, they can go back

1152
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 1: and fix it. But you know, the Utah Delegation doesn't

1153
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: have the votes to do that. And uh, in there

1154
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 1: are other places like in you know, Idaho, there was

1155
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 1: you know, the there was a you know wilderness bill

1156
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: that Mike Simpson had been pushing for years, um. And

1157
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: you know, and he hadn't been all to get it through.

1158
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: And then finally he heard that the Obaministration was the

1159
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: Boulder White Class Wilderness, you know, the bombed he you know,

1160
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 1: was going to come in into a national monument there,

1161
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: and that was a galvanizing force for you know, the

1162
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 1: folks in Idaho to come together and pass their bill.

1163
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: And so there's no need for the Obaministration to do

1164
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: anything there. And that's the way it's supposed to work.

1165
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 1: But the problem is that Congress has been so broken

1166
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: now for a long time. They're not really doing lands

1167
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 1: bills anymore the way they used to, you know, wilderness bills,

1168
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: wild and Scenic river bills, things like that. And you know,

1169
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 1: in their absence, I think that the Obamaministration felt, probably correctly,

1170
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: that it had to go in and protect some these

1171
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 1: areas like beer Azers, which are getting kind of looted

1172
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: and you know, beat up, and you know, just there

1173
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: was a lot and there was a lot of pressure

1174
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: on the abadministration from the tribes come there and do

1175
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: something to protect this area, which everybody agreed need to protecting,

1176
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: even the Utah delegation. And uh, I think that the

1177
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: problem was that the you know, there's a lot of

1178
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 1: the politicians out there didn't like the process by which

1179
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: had been done, to which I would respond, going there

1180
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: and past your own bill. I mean, that's the way

1181
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: it's supposed to work. If you don't like what they did,

1182
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 1: go back and fix it. And the notion that we're

1183
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: going to just be undo the Antiquities Act and go

1184
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 1: back or use to come back in and have President

1185
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 1: Trump go back and undo a bunch of monuments are

1186
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 1: done before. I mean, I think it's allows you precedent

1187
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: because you know, we then that opens up basically any

1188
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 1: monument that's been created since the beginning of the Antiquities

1189
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 1: Act was used back in Roosevelt's time potentially for any

1190
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: administration come in and say I'm gonna undo that one

1191
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 1: or that one, and all of a sudden, it's you know,

1192
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: open season on these lands. And over time, most of

1193
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: these areas, I think probably all these areas, you know,

1194
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: I think local communities learned to embrace them and really

1195
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 1: like the fact that there's something special. I mean, you've

1196
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 1: hunted up in the Missouri breaks in Montana, and that

1197
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: was that was created by Antiquities Act. As in the

1198
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: monument designation It was highly controversial at the time, but

1199
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: now I think there are very few people up there

1200
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 1: that think that's a bad thing. And I think a

1201
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 1: lot of folks really like the fact that it has

1202
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 1: been protected and it brings some notoriety that Ariam brings

1203
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:07,439
Speaker 1: some tourism in. So with people now like like, now

1204
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 1: you hear that just reviewing the last thirty years worth

1205
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 1: of monuments. So can you explain like how this review

1206
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 1: idea came from, where the review idea came from, how

1207
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 1: they carved out that window of time, and and what

1208
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 1: the review process is revealing. Well, you know, I have

1209
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 1: no idea why they picked you back to you know,

1210
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: the Clinton administration. So it was Clinton administration, George W. Bush,

1211
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 1: George H. W. Bush, um in Obama and Obama and

1212
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: you know, so that was the time period. I guess

1213
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 1: it was Grand Staircase, you know, which was Clinton did

1214
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 1: back in the nineties. Was probably the impotitional why they started.

1215
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 1: That was the time frame. And you know, but you know,

1216
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 1: and then how they did the review process. If he

1217
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 1: read the report, it was leaked by the you know,

1218
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: Washington Post, and to say that it is austere would

1219
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: be in you know, understatement. It is really skimpy, and

1220
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: it has minimal facts, and a lot of the facts

1221
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 1: they put in there are just flat out wrong. I mean,

1222
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: they tighted two of these national monuments under one review

1223
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: in New Mexico, you know, Rio Grand del Norte and

1224
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 1: another one, and uh, you know, I've talked with Martin Heinrich,

1225
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 1: as have you, and basically they claimed that there were

1226
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 1: road closures when there were none. They claimed that you know,

1227
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 1: they were funding and fishing had been disallowed, which it

1228
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: hadn't been. So I mean, it was just replete with

1229
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 1: these factual inaccuracies. And this was a report that was

1230
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 1: sent to the president and Heinrich was grilling the deputy

1231
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 1: director of BLM, you know, John Rouse, in a hearing,

1232
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of weeks ago and basically saying, yeah,

1233
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 1: none of this is true. I mean, how did you

1234
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 1: come up with this stuff? And you know, Ruse basically says,

1235
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 1: you know, we were never asked to look at it,

1236
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:55,919
Speaker 1: so I can't really say. So this thing goes out

1237
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 1: of the Secretary's office to the president without the career

1238
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: people who actually knows something about it having reviewed it.

1239
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a you know, in a pretty

1240
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 1: crappy way to you know, sort of you know, do

1241
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: policy in my mind, and and kind of detail what

1242
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 1: some of the recommendations might be. Well, some of the

1243
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: you know, they've excited I think, you know, up to

1244
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 1: six there would be boundary reductions. They didn't say how

1245
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 1: much it would be, but they just said it was

1246
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: too big and ought to be reduced. And those are

1247
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 1: things like bears ears in grand staircase. Other as, they

1248
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 1: said management needed to be changed and to allow more development,

1249
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 1: more hunting, fishing, whatever. I mean, I was with I

1250
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: was up in Maine yesterday and with you know, the

1251
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 1: guy who was the proponent for the whole catad and

1252
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 1: Woods and Waters, which is the monument that was donated

1253
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 1: to the federal government by you know, a family up

1254
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 1: there acres and then turned into a monument. So one

1255
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 1: of Zinkie's recommendations in the review that went to the

1256
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: president was that the management plan be changed to allow

1257
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: more hunting, fishing and timber harves. Well, there is no

1258
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 1: management plan. It was just created. There's three year process

1259
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 1: to develop a management there's gonna change. So, I mean,

1260
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: this is the sort of you know, amateur hour. We've

1261
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 1: be kind of dealing with on this thing, is that

1262
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 1: a lot of these recommendations have gone to the White

1263
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 1: House just don't make much sense. So what are the

1264
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing restrictions, But there are some timber restrictions.

1265
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: So part of the way they did that one part

1266
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,479
Speaker 1: of his awful inn September. The other part is open

1267
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: for you know, limited timber harvest and uh yeah, but

1268
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:25,840
Speaker 1: it's just sort of you know, pandering to some of

1269
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 1: these voices that want me to return to a timber

1270
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: economy that's never going to return to. I mean, yeah,

1271
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 1: there's gonna be some but you know, it's again, this

1272
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 1: was private property that you know that nobody had any

1273
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: right to do anything on it before, and it was

1274
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 1: donated to federal government for everybody, and it has some

1275
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: minimal stipulations as to what had to be respected. So

1276
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 1: I think we got a pretty good deal out of that.

1277
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure why we're going back and looking

1278
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 1: at it all. Right, are the things that I haven't

1279
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 1: brought up that you wish I had brought up, or

1280
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 1: that you want to bring up, like like a little

1281
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: issue things, you know. I think that you know, one

1282
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 1: thing we probably talked about is just the whole broader

1283
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,000
Speaker 1: issue of you know, funding for conservation in this country.

1284
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: Because we talked about a little bit in terms of

1285
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: the Forest Service, and yeah, the agency is not having

1286
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 1: the budgets they need to do stuff. But you know,

1287
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: we you know, we think back all the way to

1288
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and you know, at that time, you know,

1289
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 1: the investment in conservation in this country and that is

1290
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 1: sort of e p a. The land managing agencies, it

1291
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: was about two and a half percent of the federal budget.

1292
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 1: Today it's less than one and so we've had this

1293
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 1: sort of gradual erosion and uh, you know, and that

1294
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 1: has seen and you know, not only in just things

1295
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: like campgrounds on the Forest Service lands, but justin you know,

1296
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 1: much other ways and a lot of otherwise. I mean,

1297
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: right now, the states, you know, are sort of required

1298
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 1: to carry the burden on a bunch of things like

1299
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 1: you know, managing non game species, and hunters and anglers

1300
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 1: basically pay for conservation the states through exercise taxes, through

1301
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 1: license sales, through stamps, and to excent about of the

1302
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 1: state's fishing game budget are paid for by you know, sportsmen.

1303
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, they use those dollars,

1304
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 1: and we understand to manage monarch, butterflies and you know,

1305
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 1: owls and a lot of other species that are not

1306
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 1: game species. And that's okay, but at some point, you know,

1307
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 1: especially given the erosion of funding over time, we gotta

1308
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 1: find some new revenue sources. So there is a you know,

1309
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 1: Blueberd panel was put together that was led by you know,

1310
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 1: Johnny Morris and as pro Shops and some others that's

1311
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 1: sort of laid out, you know, almost a land water

1312
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 1: conservation fund model for much broader non game and they're

1313
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:37,680
Speaker 1: going to take you a much bigger chunk about one

1314
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 1: point two billion off budget that would go to the

1315
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 1: States to basically pay for non game management and well

1316
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:46,520
Speaker 1: and gas injury strict supportive of this. You know, Shell

1317
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 1: was on that panel. You know a lot of feather

1318
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 1: folks are. But the problem we're going to have is that,

1319
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 1: you know, again it's just additional spending in a time

1320
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: we already have these big deficits, and you know that's

1321
01:05:57,880 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 1: going to be the problem because it's not new money.

1322
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 1: If this is money, it's already going to the general

1323
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 1: treasury that now gets being dedicated non game management as

1324
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 1: opposed to just you know, paying for whatever the government

1325
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:11,479
Speaker 1: pays for. So, I mean, I think that's we're gonna

1326
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:13,520
Speaker 1: have to get creative over time about you know, funding

1327
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 1: of conservation because at some point, particularly with you know,

1328
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 1: some of the trends we're saying in hunter numbers, uh,

1329
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: the money is not always going to be there that

1330
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 1: has in the past, So we've got to find some

1331
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 1: additional sources of revenue. And that's another thing we want

1332
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:28,680
Speaker 1: to probably talk about too, is just sort of those

1333
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 1: numbers that came out of the Fish and Wildlife Service,

1334
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 1: which show that you know, sort of a decline from

1335
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 1: about hunters down to about eleven million. But it's weird

1336
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 1: because they kept saying that everything was statistically insignificant. That

1337
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 1: sounds pretty statistical statistically significant. I don't know if it

1338
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 1: meant because they're they're counting it differently. I don't think

1339
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 1: even in the report, it keeps saying like statistically insignificant,

1340
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: even though it's like like a couple like millions more

1341
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 1: fishermen less hunters, but it called all it called those

1342
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 1: numbers statistically into significant in the report, which I never understood. Yeah,

1343
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 1: and I don't get that either. I mean but because

1344
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 1: I think that everybody in the industry thinks it's significant.

1345
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,240
Speaker 1: And you know, the folks was after like a and

1346
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 1: it was coming on the heels of an uptick. Yep,

1347
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:14,240
Speaker 1: we've had an uptick before and now we got a downtick.

1348
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 1: And it could be tied to so many it's so

1349
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 1: hard to suss out what it's coming from. Well, I

1350
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 1: think it's a combination of things, because the economy always

1351
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: factors into it. Yeah, it does. But you know, think

1352
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 1: about you know, first of all, there are some broader

1353
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 1: sociological demographic changes. I mean, you know, I think you know,

1354
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 1: the guys like yeah, me, fifty five year old white guys.

1355
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 1: You know, we're starting to you know, and you know

1356
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,760
Speaker 1: my you know, father's generation. You know, they're not hunting anymore.

1357
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:44,520
Speaker 1: And you know, so you have that sort of cliff

1358
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:46,320
Speaker 1: of these guys that are sort of carried the industry

1359
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 1: for a long time, there aren't going to be there.

1360
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 1: And so I think that's one thing that we're dealing with.

1361
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 1: I think that you know, just how we've you know,

1362
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 1: done look at the fishing versus the hunting. The fishing side,

1363
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:58,280
Speaker 1: you know, Pittman Robertson, is you know that is the

1364
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 1: hunting side. Dingle Johnson's YXT side tax for the fishing side,

1365
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 1: Dingo Johnson allows the states to use a small portion

1366
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 1: of those money as they get for recruitment, reactivation, retention,

1367
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: the three RS, and so that's what funded the whole

1368
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 1: Recreational Boating and Fishing Foundation has just done the take

1369
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 1: Me phishing campaign that you've probably seen the sort of

1370
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:21,879
Speaker 1: a similar program for the Spanish speaking folks of almost

1371
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:24,439
Speaker 1: auspice Car. I'm not a Spanish speaker, so I said

1372
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:28,439
Speaker 1: that probably wrong, but they've done really aggressive outreach promoting

1373
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 1: fishing and boating that has, I am positive, has driven

1374
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 1: a bunch of those fishing numbers up. Hunting side. They're

1375
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 1: not allowed to use the excise tax for any you know,

1376
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: the three R activities, so you don't have an equivalent

1377
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:43,800
Speaker 1: program on the hunting side that you do on the

1378
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 1: fishing side. There's no take me hunting campaign out there,

1379
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:48,280
Speaker 1: and we're trying to get you know, there's a bill

1380
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 1: in Congress right now that we're pushing called basically the

1381
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:54,280
Speaker 1: PR Mockertization Act to allow the States to use the

1382
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:58,760
Speaker 1: small portion of those PR funds for recruitment retention, reactivation,

1383
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 1: which you've got to do if they're going to stay

1384
01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 1: ahead of this curve, because you know, it's just you know,

1385
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:07,639
Speaker 1: the people that have basically been funding you know, hunting

1386
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 1: and hunting and fishing in the future. I mean, we're

1387
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 1: coming to a cliff, you know, as these baby boomers

1388
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:14,720
Speaker 1: you know, start of get out of the game and

1389
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 1: we don't have those young generations coming up behind them,

1390
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:19,439
Speaker 1: and so it's not gonna happen organically. We got to

1391
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:21,920
Speaker 1: make a real effort to push for that. And then

1392
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:23,599
Speaker 1: I think in the hunting side too, you have things

1393
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,760
Speaker 1: like you know, I've man, I I'm going off script here,

1394
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:29,679
Speaker 1: but you know, things like the hunter Education program, which

1395
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:31,640
Speaker 1: is you know, I think is you know, kind of

1396
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 1: a twentieth century you know program, and we need to

1397
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: be thinking about the way kids learned these days. You know,

1398
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 1: my kid, my son who's twenty now, you probably took

1399
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:43,760
Speaker 1: hunter education six or seven years ago. We had to

1400
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 1: do in the eleven hours of classroom. And we know

1401
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 1: you had to spend a whole in when I took

1402
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:51,440
Speaker 1: it as a kid, you have you spent the whole weekend. Yeah,

1403
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: and your kids and kids nowadays you've got you know,

1404
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 1: soccer practice, swim practice, you know, study halls, you know,

1405
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:00,040
Speaker 1: whatever it is. There's a super scheduled and busy and

1406
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 1: as especially around Washington, d C. Where I live, it

1407
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,720
Speaker 1: was not easy finding a class. We find them down

1408
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:09,160
Speaker 1: in Fredericksburg, Virginia, like an hour south of DC. You

1409
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 1: could do the whole class in like eleven hours. And

1410
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:13,599
Speaker 1: he said, like it's the worst day of his life.

1411
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 1: He said it was just so incredibly boring, and he

1412
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:19,040
Speaker 1: was he wasn't allowed to do it online. I mean,

1413
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,080
Speaker 1: it sort seems to makes sense to me to BUI

1414
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 1: allow kids to do it online, that's how they learned

1415
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: these days. And then you have them go out in

1416
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 1: the field with somebody who who has a hunting license,

1417
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:30,080
Speaker 1: who knows how to do it, who can basically certify

1418
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:32,200
Speaker 1: they've taken them out and been a mentor to him.

1419
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 1: And uh, I see, I see both sides of this issue, man,

1420
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 1: Like I definitely where you're coming from that it shouldn't

1421
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:43,360
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be coming in and making it hard for

1422
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 1: people to go participate in the activity. On the other hand, um,

1423
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:53,559
Speaker 1: I see that it's like a serious discipline, sure, and

1424
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 1: it's it's like a real thing. You're out there, you're

1425
01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 1: out there dealing with You're out there trafficking in life

1426
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,479
Speaker 1: and death. And I totally agree with you. But think

1427
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 1: about I mean, a lot of the online classes now

1428
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 1: are really good. There are a lot better than some

1429
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:11,360
Speaker 1: old dude standing in a VFW hall, you know, sort

1430
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:14,200
Speaker 1: of you know, droning on about something, kids space and out,

1431
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 1: you know, not paying attention anyone. You know, you're right, yeah,

1432
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:18,559
Speaker 1: because that's the thing I'm not looking at, is like

1433
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:22,559
Speaker 1: it's almost yeah, you could probably put you could probably

1434
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 1: put something together. Not probably, you probably surely put something together.

1435
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:34,360
Speaker 1: It's equally educational, I think doesn't require parents like changing

1436
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 1: their work schedules around and taking like days off work

1437
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: in order to make it happen. And plus, you know,

1438
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 1: just the kids are so scheduled these days. I mean,

1439
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:43,760
Speaker 1: you'll get to this point soon with your kids, but

1440
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, they have so much stuff going on. Is

1441
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 1: you know, tough to do. And partly if you're especially

1442
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:50,559
Speaker 1: if you're in an urban area, there's just no place close.

1443
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,719
Speaker 1: At least there wasn't, and that was a huge deal.

1444
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:55,960
Speaker 1: And I mean, I think there has to be a

1445
01:11:56,080 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 1: sort of an outside component the whole thing. They need

1446
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 1: to go out with somebody. They have to have that experience,

1447
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 1: They have to have somebody to explain to him how

1448
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:04,760
Speaker 1: it's done, because I mean, the classroom is not enough

1449
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 1: by itself. But one of the good things that the

1450
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 1: States have done is they created his apprentice programs now

1451
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:11,600
Speaker 1: and you know that's suming. I've taken a bunch of

1452
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:13,760
Speaker 1: people out with that, and you know, that's a huge

1453
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 1: step in the right direction. Make sure to get them

1454
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:18,800
Speaker 1: interested before they have to sort of sink that investment

1455
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:22,040
Speaker 1: of you know, going through the whole process. Yeah, I

1456
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:25,599
Speaker 1: think I do like those programs a lot um And

1457
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 1: that seems like a really that seems like a good

1458
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 1: solution to go through it. And I'm sure it's not

1459
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:33,720
Speaker 1: something that probably gets abused too much, but it has

1460
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:36,840
Speaker 1: been nice to see that that allowing people, Uh, there

1461
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 1: was no Verton when you know, when I was younger,

1462
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:41,080
Speaker 1: there was no version of that at all. You know,

1463
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:44,519
Speaker 1: I think you if for firearms deer, you're fourteen years old,

1464
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:47,320
Speaker 1: but if you got your I think that if you

1465
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:51,880
Speaker 1: got your dead uncle neighbor sitting in the blind with

1466
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:53,880
Speaker 1: you focused on what you're going on, I don't see

1467
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:55,880
Speaker 1: any reason you need to wait to be fourteen. No,

1468
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,639
Speaker 1: totally agree. I mean, my other pet peeves just how

1469
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:03,360
Speaker 1: compa the licensing systems are. And you have every state

1470
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:05,599
Speaker 1: has their own system that's different than the other states.

1471
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 1: And you have, you know, a bunch of states don't

1472
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:09,600
Speaker 1: even have mobile friendly. You know, I went out in

1473
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 1: Wyoming a few weeks ago, and you know their site

1474
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:14,519
Speaker 1: it's not mobile friendly. So you're you're trying to like

1475
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:17,559
Speaker 1: buy a fishing license and you're expanding it and trying

1476
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 1: to find the right button, and it's just a total

1477
01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:22,439
Speaker 1: pain in the ass. And you know the notion that

1478
01:13:22,479 --> 01:13:25,439
Speaker 1: you mean, you can go to Amazon and I can

1479
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:28,120
Speaker 1: type of my information. I can buy anything anywhere in

1480
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:30,360
Speaker 1: the country with just a click of a button. I

1481
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 1: ought to be able to do hunting a fishing licensees.

1482
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:35,639
Speaker 1: I probably buy a dozen every year, and it's everyone.

1483
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 1: Some states do it really well, others don't. I mean,

1484
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: there are a couple of states that will send me

1485
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 1: email reminders that I gotta get my hunting license, and

1486
01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:45,760
Speaker 1: I do, but most don't. And uh, you know, so,

1487
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the states have got to come

1488
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:49,320
Speaker 1: into the twenty one century in terms of marketing and

1489
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:52,560
Speaker 1: making it consumer friendly. And plus it's just if you

1490
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:54,559
Speaker 1: look at the rigs for you know, you you hunt

1491
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 1: all over the place. I mean just going through those

1492
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:58,120
Speaker 1: rags and figure out what you can do, where you

1493
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:01,560
Speaker 1: can do it. What the limit is here is so complicated.

1494
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 1: We gotta figure out a way to But I fetishize

1495
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:06,599
Speaker 1: those things. I agree that they're complicated, but I do

1496
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:08,720
Speaker 1: but you know how to read them. But imagine if

1497
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:11,599
Speaker 1: you because I hear the thing, I don't. I know

1498
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:14,720
Speaker 1: how to read them. But I still find myself like

1499
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:16,839
Speaker 1: we have a great like we have a great network

1500
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 1: of people around the country who are very enthusiastic hunters

1501
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:25,120
Speaker 1: and fishermen. So every time I'm going somewhere, I still

1502
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 1: will get the rag, look at it, and I'll still

1503
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 1: don't have to call somebody and be like, hey man,

1504
01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:34,360
Speaker 1: I'm like, am I looking at this right? Like you

1505
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:40,360
Speaker 1: can do this and not that, Because even after a

1506
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:43,360
Speaker 1: long time, after decades of looking at a lot of rags,

1507
01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:45,799
Speaker 1: I still look at rags and like, I don't understand

1508
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 1: what they're talking about. Yep, I rest, I rest my

1509
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 1: case and I call and that at that point, I

1510
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,200
Speaker 1: like call buddies. We're doing that all the time, all

1511
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 1: the time trying to figure out like so what now,

1512
01:14:58,160 --> 01:15:00,120
Speaker 1: But you're right, and like it just thinks the As

1513
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:02,400
Speaker 1: an example of how hard is to get a license,

1514
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:06,160
Speaker 1: I was trying to get licenses here from Maryland a

1515
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:10,120
Speaker 1: few days ago online and uh, I get to like

1516
01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:12,479
Speaker 1: the final stage. I'm supposed to make a password, you know,

1517
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:14,639
Speaker 1: to set up some accounts that I can have a license,

1518
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:19,599
Speaker 1: and all it says is one, um Uh it has

1519
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:23,320
Speaker 1: to be alpha and numeric characters. Right, Well that's not true.

1520
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:25,880
Speaker 1: It actually also has to have a special character, except

1521
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 1: it's not written there. So I'm calling that all my

1522
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:31,760
Speaker 1: connections here like dude, what is going on? Pulling my

1523
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 1: hair out, and it's just like yeah, we almost just

1524
01:15:34,439 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 1: showed up here with no licenses and how to do

1525
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:39,439
Speaker 1: the Walmart thing at midnight? You know. Yeah, so I

1526
01:15:39,439 --> 01:15:41,040
Speaker 1: mean we gotta do a better job with things. Like

1527
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 1: here's the thing that I think is doing it. Uh.

1528
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:52,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure that the licenses are pain and yeas is

1529
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:57,960
Speaker 1: a factor. I'm sure that UM restrictions are a factor.

1530
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:03,599
Speaker 1: But they I noticed two things go on. One, if

1531
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:09,080
Speaker 1: you go and talk to a hunter, who isn't just

1532
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:13,839
Speaker 1: who isn't concerned about conservation, like just hasn't had been

1533
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:17,040
Speaker 1: engaged in those conversations, has been exposed to like kind

1534
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:20,360
Speaker 1: of like long term thinking about the well being of fishing,

1535
01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:24,519
Speaker 1: wildlife and hunting and fishing. They're not going to tell you, like, man,

1536
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:28,280
Speaker 1: the one thing this world needs is more hunters, because

1537
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:32,920
Speaker 1: they already know that they're in like bad competition for

1538
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:38,760
Speaker 1: hunting spots, so it's hard to get someone. I would

1539
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:40,640
Speaker 1: think that most people look and they're like, oh, it

1540
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 1: is you know, some percentage less hunters and fishermen than

1541
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:47,760
Speaker 1: they were five years ago. Great, because that means more

1542
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:51,479
Speaker 1: spots for me. And I think the other part of

1543
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 1: it is is that it's still for people getting into

1544
01:16:56,880 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 1: it who didn't grow up around it. It is hard

1545
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 1: hard to find a place to hunt and fish unless

1546
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:07,080
Speaker 1: you're just unless you're an obsessed person. Yeah, access is

1547
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:10,280
Speaker 1: a huge issue on this because you know, you know,

1548
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:12,760
Speaker 1: look around d C. I mean, a guy who works

1549
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:14,360
Speaker 1: in our office, you know, talks about he was when

1550
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 1: he was a kid hunting Quail and False Church, which

1551
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 1: is ten miles outside d C. Whether I can tell

1552
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:21,320
Speaker 1: you right now there are no Quail and Falls Church.

1553
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:22,880
Speaker 1: You walk down the street with a shotgun, you're going

1554
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:25,920
Speaker 1: to jail. And uh, you know, it's just gotten harder

1555
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:27,920
Speaker 1: and harder to get to those places. And when you

1556
01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:29,400
Speaker 1: do get to them, there are a lot more people

1557
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 1: there because we have left places to go and you

1558
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:33,439
Speaker 1: know the end and that's not going to change. What

1559
01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:35,120
Speaker 1: we have to do is just you know, things like

1560
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:37,719
Speaker 1: that Farm Bill program I talked about that encourage private

1561
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:40,040
Speaker 1: land ords and open up their land. You know, things

1562
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:42,639
Speaker 1: like Land and Water Conservation Fund, which is actually creating

1563
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:46,880
Speaker 1: new you know, hunting territories, fishing territories. Yeah, so I

1564
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:48,759
Speaker 1: think there has to be a major push on access.

1565
01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:50,559
Speaker 1: And listen, I'm gonna give Zinkey a little bit credit

1566
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:52,640
Speaker 1: here because you know, I think Interior if they've done

1567
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:54,479
Speaker 1: a bunch of the pushed down a bunch of stuff

1568
01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:56,720
Speaker 1: on access, which is good, and I think that's part

1569
01:17:56,720 --> 01:17:59,599
Speaker 1: of the equation. And I think we can't ignore that,

1570
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 1: but also have to have conservation you know, that goes

1571
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:04,719
Speaker 1: with that, because again, you can't just sort of open

1572
01:18:04,760 --> 01:18:07,639
Speaker 1: up access if there's too many people there, if there's

1573
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:10,720
Speaker 1: no game there, if it's been industrialized, you know, what

1574
01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 1: good is access for that? So no, we just need

1575
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 1: to be thinking you know, much bigger on all these levels. Yeah,

1576
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:21,840
Speaker 1: it's uh, can you can you go back to the

1577
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:26,400
Speaker 1: first part when you're talking about how good everything is. Listen,

1578
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:27,640
Speaker 1: the fact that we're able to have a lot of

1579
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:30,439
Speaker 1: these arguments is luxury because you know, you can go

1580
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:32,080
Speaker 1: to a bunch of Europe You're not gonna have these

1581
01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:35,720
Speaker 1: arguments because there's no opportunity. So, I mean, listen, we

1582
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:37,680
Speaker 1: have a lot of challenges and we need you know,

1583
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 1: all the meat eaters out there engaging and you know,

1584
01:18:40,240 --> 01:18:42,519
Speaker 1: making their voice heard because you've seen what they can do.

1585
01:18:43,400 --> 01:18:45,800
Speaker 1: But you know, listen, we don't get I mean, you

1586
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:47,840
Speaker 1: can't get too bummed out because you know we've got

1587
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:50,640
Speaker 1: it great. I mean, this is an amazing resource we have.

1588
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:53,640
Speaker 1: No I know, I appreciate it, man, I I appreciate

1589
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:56,760
Speaker 1: how you framed. The thing is that you framed to

1590
01:18:56,960 --> 01:19:03,240
Speaker 1: be acknowledging, uh, the great treasures we have, but then

1591
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:08,600
Speaker 1: taking the threats to them very seriously. Yeah, because I

1592
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:12,120
Speaker 1: think that if you aren't in all aspects of life,

1593
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:17,439
Speaker 1: if you are aggressively looking at what's coming around to

1594
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:24,559
Speaker 1: screw you, you're you're messing something up. Absolutely. If I

1595
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:26,280
Speaker 1: don't know this one I don't know if you're comfortable

1596
01:19:26,280 --> 01:19:30,680
Speaker 1: with this one. Um, we're so new into the new

1597
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:35,320
Speaker 1: administration UM and a lot of changes and you know,

1598
01:19:35,479 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 1: personalities emerging and and you know, procedure starting. What are

1599
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:43,240
Speaker 1: some of the like if you had if you had

1600
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:46,640
Speaker 1: a thing where you could list out three things or

1601
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:51,400
Speaker 1: four things that you think the new administration and various

1602
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:56,360
Speaker 1: secretaries and in pointees um could be doing. It's not

1603
01:19:56,479 --> 01:20:01,280
Speaker 1: too late. The political risk isn't gray, Like, what are

1604
01:20:01,360 --> 01:20:04,680
Speaker 1: some just good common sense slam dunk things that we

1605
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 1: could expect that we might hope to or expect to

1606
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 1: see out of our the current iteration of our federal government.

1607
01:20:13,360 --> 01:20:16,640
Speaker 1: And if if I were advising over there, and you know,

1608
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:19,479
Speaker 1: they had the goal of being you know, the legacy

1609
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:23,800
Speaker 1: of being a good conservation administration. I mean, there are

1610
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:25,720
Speaker 1: a few things I think you can listen. I mean,

1611
01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:29,880
Speaker 1: development and conservation are not necessarily opposed. I mean, you

1612
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:32,439
Speaker 1: can do smart development, you can target it. You know,

1613
01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:35,240
Speaker 1: whether we've been What's been frustrating so far is the

1614
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:40,680
Speaker 1: absolute failure of you know, Interior, for example, to articulate

1615
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:44,560
Speaker 1: any sort of positive conservation vision. And they've done a

1616
01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:48,040
Speaker 1: good job articulating an access vision, which I appreciate and

1617
01:20:48,080 --> 01:20:50,240
Speaker 1: I think is important, but there has to be that

1618
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:53,120
Speaker 1: commenced a conservation vision. And it doesn't have to be

1619
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, it can be things like, you know, how

1620
01:20:55,400 --> 01:20:57,479
Speaker 1: do we do how do we get more oil and

1621
01:20:57,520 --> 01:20:59,280
Speaker 1: gas out but at the same time do it smarter?

1622
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:01,400
Speaker 1: I mean, how do we do things like, you know,

1623
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:06,360
Speaker 1: protect migration corridors, which are you know, sort of iconic

1624
01:21:06,479 --> 01:21:09,720
Speaker 1: big game, you know, areas that are incredibly important. It's

1625
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 1: a ribbon cutting every time it crosses a highway. And

1626
01:21:13,240 --> 01:21:15,400
Speaker 1: I think there are things that you can articulate that

1627
01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:19,040
Speaker 1: are very positive for conservation that aren't anti industry in

1628
01:21:19,080 --> 01:21:21,560
Speaker 1: any sort of way. And I think that there was

1629
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:23,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of that stuff that if they were to

1630
01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:25,400
Speaker 1: think about and if they cared, they would artcirculate those

1631
01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 1: sorts of strategies. If if you don't like you know,

1632
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:33,000
Speaker 1: regulatory approaches to clean water for example, I mean, as

1633
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:34,920
Speaker 1: I said before, you better be doubling down on the

1634
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,559
Speaker 1: voluntary approaches things like the farm built. But we have

1635
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:40,080
Speaker 1: not seen any of the rhetoric that connect those dots.

1636
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:45,440
Speaker 1: It's just a been about getting rid of regulation, unfettered capitalism,

1637
01:21:45,800 --> 01:21:48,559
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, not even any thought about

1638
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:50,920
Speaker 1: how are we going to achieve our clean water or

1639
01:21:51,120 --> 01:21:54,280
Speaker 1: sidal goals with that, or fisher wildlife goals. And I

1640
01:21:54,320 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 1: think there are things we can do, you know, any

1641
01:21:56,880 --> 01:21:59,160
Speaker 1: administration could do if they really wanted to, and if

1642
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:01,200
Speaker 1: that is the legs that they want to leave, you know,

1643
01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:04,080
Speaker 1: to be strong in development would also be strong in conservation.

1644
01:22:04,320 --> 01:22:07,000
Speaker 1: And the frustrating part is just we haven't even seen

1645
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:14,600
Speaker 1: the rhetoric being strong in conservation. I've noticed that absence. Yeah,

1646
01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:17,120
Speaker 1: I mean in in technology has changed. I mean we've

1647
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:18,400
Speaker 1: done a lot of work with the oil and gas

1648
01:22:18,400 --> 01:22:20,920
Speaker 1: companies about in surround you know, trying to do it

1649
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:24,280
Speaker 1: smart and you know, if you go I mean I

1650
01:22:24,280 --> 01:22:26,719
Speaker 1: remember one oil and gas executive showing me a picture

1651
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:29,640
Speaker 1: of the Jonah field in Wyoming, which is basically his

1652
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:32,120
Speaker 1: quarter acre pads as far as the eye can see,

1653
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:37,040
Speaker 1: and he says, using today's technology of your diagonal drilling,

1654
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:41,479
Speaker 1: of reservoir mapping, you know, we can develop that exact

1655
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:44,360
Speaker 1: same every ounce of oil and gas in that field

1656
01:22:44,800 --> 01:22:49,679
Speaker 1: under with ten of the surface impact. And by the way, yeah,

1657
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:51,759
Speaker 1: we can do it more cheaply because that's less pipelines,

1658
01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:55,880
Speaker 1: less roads, less pads and you know, but you know,

1659
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:58,000
Speaker 1: industry is you know, like you know, a lot of

1660
01:22:58,000 --> 01:22:59,760
Speaker 1: industry is not progressive. They're going to keep doing it

1661
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 1: the same way they've always done it, you know, just

1662
01:23:01,439 --> 01:23:04,519
Speaker 1: punch holes as they move along, because that's the way

1663
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:06,200
Speaker 1: they're used to do it, and they've made money doing that.

1664
01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:08,479
Speaker 1: But if you have a government that says, you know what,

1665
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:10,360
Speaker 1: this is the public's lands, we're gonna do it a

1666
01:23:10,360 --> 01:23:12,919
Speaker 1: little bit smarter than that. You're gonna minimize your footprint,

1667
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 1: We're gonna help you do that, they can do it.

1668
01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:18,120
Speaker 1: And so you could be really good on development and

1669
01:23:18,160 --> 01:23:21,080
Speaker 1: be really good on conservation. But we just haven't seen

1670
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:24,200
Speaker 1: that yet. No, I think that that's the kind of um.

1671
01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:26,960
Speaker 1: I think that that's the kind of approach and the

1672
01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:30,719
Speaker 1: kind of language to be using, though and thinking about

1673
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:34,760
Speaker 1: it and stepping away from this this sort of like

1674
01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:38,519
Speaker 1: this this this adversarial all one way or all the

1675
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:41,080
Speaker 1: other approach, which winds up being kind of crippling. Yeah,

1676
01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:43,160
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean that's been you know, just the

1677
01:23:43,160 --> 01:23:45,559
Speaker 1: debate has been so shrill and so polarized. That doesn't

1678
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:47,559
Speaker 1: need to be. I mean, you know, smart people can

1679
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:49,960
Speaker 1: disagree about you know the way to approach some of

1680
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:52,599
Speaker 1: these things, but you know, there ought to be some basic,

1681
01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:55,799
Speaker 1: you know, bottom lines. You know, we want a strong economy,

1682
01:23:56,000 --> 01:24:00,720
Speaker 1: we want energy independence, we want protected land. Yeah, we

1683
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:04,439
Speaker 1: want robust hunting and fishing, and U you know, just okay,

1684
01:24:04,439 --> 01:24:06,080
Speaker 1: how do we do it achieve all that? And you're

1685
01:24:06,080 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 1: not gonna do it by administrative feat You're gonna get

1686
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:09,320
Speaker 1: a bunch of people in the room and you're gonna

1687
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:12,519
Speaker 1: figure out everybody's gonna compromise a little bit. So I

1688
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:15,800
Speaker 1: was talking to a politician recently who was describing his

1689
01:24:15,920 --> 01:24:20,040
Speaker 1: decision making process, and he described this point at which

1690
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:29,240
Speaker 1: the radical environmentalists you measure their anger and then sort

1691
01:24:29,240 --> 01:24:32,719
Speaker 1: of the radical fringe of the extraction, you measure their anger.

1692
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:35,879
Speaker 1: And when you feel that they're both kind of equally

1693
01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:42,120
Speaker 1: angry at you, you've probably found your path forward. As

1694
01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:44,760
Speaker 1: you you you you feel it, and then you know

1695
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 1: that you're maybe somehow coming in out of compromise that people.

1696
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:51,840
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right, and I think that you know, unfortunately,

1697
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:54,360
Speaker 1: you know that you know that we we see the

1698
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:56,880
Speaker 1: tail wag the dog sometimes on this stuff, and that

1699
01:24:56,960 --> 01:24:59,240
Speaker 1: you know, squeaky wheel get in the grease. You know,

1700
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:03,479
Speaker 1: the loudest screamer intends to get the attention. And and

1701
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:07,280
Speaker 1: what's really frustrating is that you know, you know, you

1702
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:09,080
Speaker 1: you think about you know, even just the way the

1703
01:25:09,080 --> 01:25:11,360
Speaker 1: press handles a lot of these issues, it's not sort

1704
01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:14,360
Speaker 1: of a thoughtful discussion about you know, this middle ground.

1705
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:17,680
Speaker 1: It is, you know, the so polarized. I mean, it's

1706
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:20,240
Speaker 1: the you know, drill everything, and it's the you know,

1707
01:25:20,360 --> 01:25:23,400
Speaker 1: lock it all up, and there is no discussion about that,

1708
01:25:23,479 --> 01:25:26,400
Speaker 1: you know, that in the middle And that's you know,

1709
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:28,479
Speaker 1: the space that we try to occupy because I think

1710
01:25:28,479 --> 01:25:30,600
Speaker 1: the hunting and fishing communities country has always sort of

1711
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:33,720
Speaker 1: been that sensible center, I mean pragmatic. I mean, we

1712
01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:37,519
Speaker 1: use the land, we drive cars. But at the same time,

1713
01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:40,000
Speaker 1: you know, we have a legacy we want to maintain

1714
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:45,360
Speaker 1: and pass on to our kids. So what is the

1715
01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:49,160
Speaker 1: what does t RCP need and what's how do things

1716
01:25:49,240 --> 01:25:52,840
Speaker 1: look with TRCP going forward? Well, how should people follow

1717
01:25:52,880 --> 01:25:55,000
Speaker 1: what's going on and get involved? What do you need

1718
01:25:55,080 --> 01:25:57,479
Speaker 1: from people? Yeah, you know, we uh, you know, we

1719
01:25:57,479 --> 01:25:59,880
Speaker 1: we're sort of a coalition of a lot of groups.

1720
01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:03,440
Speaker 1: We fifty six formal partners range from you Ducks Unlimited

1721
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:06,479
Speaker 1: and we will do your foundation to a f l

1722
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:09,400
Speaker 1: c i O and you know, the Outdoor Industry Association,

1723
01:26:10,360 --> 01:26:13,000
Speaker 1: and uh, you know that's always a delicate balancing act.

1724
01:26:13,160 --> 01:26:15,960
Speaker 1: But I think that we've always probably that keeps you centered,

1725
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:17,800
Speaker 1: that keeps a centered because you know, we have you know,

1726
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:20,599
Speaker 1: sort of various you know, extremes on all sides, and

1727
01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:21,880
Speaker 1: you know, we park a lot of things at the

1728
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:23,360
Speaker 1: door and we just focus on the stuff we can

1729
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:26,680
Speaker 1: all agree on. And uh, but you know what, I

1730
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:29,280
Speaker 1: think that the fault of the hunting and fishing communities

1731
01:26:29,320 --> 01:26:32,200
Speaker 1: over time, as we've become complacent, we've become checked out.

1732
01:26:32,280 --> 01:26:35,080
Speaker 1: We haven't let our voices be heard, as we sort

1733
01:26:35,120 --> 01:26:38,559
Speaker 1: of fractured into you know, our little species groups fixing

1734
01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:40,800
Speaker 1: up our little wetland or our stream or whatever it

1735
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:44,040
Speaker 1: might be. And we've been you know, sort of more

1736
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:46,639
Speaker 1: interested in doing that than engaging in some of these

1737
01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:49,760
Speaker 1: you know sometimes you know, sort of nasty political conversations

1738
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:52,439
Speaker 1: that you know, people get mad at you, but you know,

1739
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:54,719
Speaker 1: people got mad at the Order Roosevelt a whole lot.

1740
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:57,360
Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, if we're gonna sort

1741
01:26:57,400 --> 01:26:59,400
Speaker 1: of keep what we have in this country, you know,

1742
01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:01,400
Speaker 1: sports him to gotta be willing to speak up and

1743
01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:03,680
Speaker 1: not just about you know, when somebody they perceived some

1744
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:05,720
Speaker 1: has gonna come and take away their gun. They got

1745
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:07,800
Speaker 1: to talk about when somebody's gonna take away their land too.

1746
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:11,200
Speaker 1: And uh, you know that's where I think we've we've

1747
01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:14,840
Speaker 1: failed over time is as a community from really standing

1748
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:17,760
Speaker 1: up with that. And so it well, we need is

1749
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:19,800
Speaker 1: people to get engaged. We need people, they think, come

1750
01:27:19,840 --> 01:27:22,280
Speaker 1: to our website rsp dot org. You know, sign up,

1751
01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:24,760
Speaker 1: you know, send a check. That's great. But we're really

1752
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:26,559
Speaker 1: trying to do is just sort of you know, re

1753
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:30,799
Speaker 1: established that voice of the hunter and angler in federal policy,

1754
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:35,040
Speaker 1: because it's not the voice of the radical environmentalists, it's

1755
01:27:35,040 --> 01:27:37,800
Speaker 1: not the voice of industry. It is, you know, it's

1756
01:27:38,040 --> 01:27:40,880
Speaker 1: that sensible center that I've talked about that we've yeah,

1757
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:46,120
Speaker 1: we need in this country. All right, you got anything

1758
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:49,000
Speaker 1: you want? That was that was your end? But do

1759
01:27:49,040 --> 01:27:51,760
Speaker 1: you have another end? No? No, I'm I've got all

1760
01:27:51,800 --> 01:27:56,280
Speaker 1: sports hands. But now listen, Hey, thanks for all all

1761
01:27:56,280 --> 01:27:58,000
Speaker 1: that you've done and when the meteors have done, you

1762
01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:02,679
Speaker 1: guys have been great. Yes, anything you wanna any follow

1763
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:06,960
Speaker 1: up questions? No, I don't think so you can't tell

1764
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm in a good mood or a bad mood. Now

1765
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:14,720
Speaker 1: it is daunting, man. And there's the thing you just

1766
01:28:14,800 --> 01:28:17,200
Speaker 1: said to that that um, the thing you said kind

1767
01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 1: of hit with like the species groups, because I like,

1768
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:23,559
Speaker 1: I like a lot of that stuff. But it does

1769
01:28:25,360 --> 01:28:27,840
Speaker 1: you know, when you when you focus in on that level,

1770
01:28:28,160 --> 01:28:30,839
Speaker 1: if you're like, oh, you know, I like the hunt pheasants,

1771
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:33,800
Speaker 1: I like, I like the hunt turkey, and and you

1772
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:36,400
Speaker 1: just get involved on that level of conservation, you can

1773
01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:41,000
Speaker 1: plug along and sort of miss like big picture issues

1774
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:42,800
Speaker 1: that are going on. Well, I mean people come to

1775
01:28:42,840 --> 01:28:45,759
Speaker 1: me messy issues. Yeah, they say, hey, what's your relationship

1776
01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:47,120
Speaker 1: with the n r A. And I said, well, listen,

1777
01:28:47,160 --> 01:28:49,200
Speaker 1: we don't do you know, Second Amendment stuff. Those guys

1778
01:28:49,240 --> 01:28:51,679
Speaker 1: don't need us. They do it just fine. I said, However,

1779
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:54,720
Speaker 1: I have nothing but respect for the fact that the

1780
01:28:54,840 --> 01:28:57,280
Speaker 1: n r A and the gun community has made any

1781
01:28:57,280 --> 01:28:59,519
Speaker 1: attack on a gun law any place, an attack on

1782
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:02,120
Speaker 1: everybody for us, as his act opposite, it was a

1783
01:29:02,200 --> 01:29:04,719
Speaker 1: muleteer problem. It's not a trout problem. It's a trout problem.

1784
01:29:04,720 --> 01:29:06,960
Speaker 1: It's not to say it's not a grouse problem. And

1785
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:09,240
Speaker 1: we die this death with a thousand cuts because we're

1786
01:29:09,280 --> 01:29:12,200
Speaker 1: so sort of vested in our own little critters and

1787
01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:15,200
Speaker 1: we don't come together and recognize that, you know, the

1788
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:18,120
Speaker 1: water quality issues in Florida may not directly affect me,

1789
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:21,080
Speaker 1: but we gotta stand together in terms of conservation in

1790
01:29:21,080 --> 01:29:25,920
Speaker 1: this country. Yeah, I'm gonna close it on that thought

1791
01:29:26,760 --> 01:29:30,160
Speaker 1: and go to TRCP dot org. You can also get

1792
01:29:30,200 --> 01:29:33,599
Speaker 1: on your guys mailing list, which is great because that's

1793
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:35,320
Speaker 1: how I even know all. That's how I even know

1794
01:29:35,439 --> 01:29:39,400
Speaker 1: what all is going on. We'll send out emails regularly

1795
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:42,080
Speaker 1: to you and you and you keep people apprized of

1796
01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:44,679
Speaker 1: things when they need to do comments on things or

1797
01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:48,799
Speaker 1: contact your representatives about stuff that they should be getting involved.

1798
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:51,280
Speaker 1: It's nice. It's like, was it like usually three or

1799
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:56,320
Speaker 1: five report? Yeah, like what's up this week? Yeah, yeah,

1800
01:29:56,360 --> 01:29:58,000
Speaker 1: that kind of half read it. Then I just make

1801
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:01,519
Speaker 1: wid explain to me later. You know, we try to

1802
01:30:01,600 --> 01:30:03,280
Speaker 1: keep the good folks engage, but we tried to keep

1803
01:30:03,320 --> 01:30:06,080
Speaker 1: it light and fun as well. And uh, because you

1804
01:30:06,120 --> 01:30:07,400
Speaker 1: know that you've gotta have a little bit of you know,

1805
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:09,720
Speaker 1: dessert with your vegetables. Yeah, I know. It's like a

1806
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:11,720
Speaker 1: good amount of hunting and fishing stuff in there, and

1807
01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:14,680
Speaker 1: a good amount of how someone's gonna come screw you

1808
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:17,360
Speaker 1: on hunting fishing down the road. There we go, all

1809
01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:22,240
Speaker 1: right with Fosburgh. Thank you very much for joining us. Uh,

1810
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:25,120
Speaker 1: you got to come back soon and do status updates

1811
01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:27,719
Speaker 1: on this stuff. Good. Let's actually talk about like hunting

1812
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:29,840
Speaker 1: and fishing next time. Next time we will, all right,