1 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Paul Vulker is a giant of global finance, literally and figuratively. 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: At six ft seven inches or about two meters tall, 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: he towered over most everyone around him, and as Chairman 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 1: of the Federal Reserve in the nineteen eighties and in 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: countless other roles in public service, he made his mark 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: on the world. Now, at age ninety one, he's published 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: a new memoir called Keeping at It, and his collaborator 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: happens to be one of our Bloomberg colleagues, Christine Harper. 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: This week on Benchmark, we'll talk with Christine about why 10 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: he wrote the book and what it was like to 11 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: work with him. Welcome to Benchmark. I'm Scott Landman, economics 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: editor with Bloomberg News in Washington, and now I'm Daniel Moss, 13 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: columnist at Bloomberg Opinion in New York. Were joined by 14 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: Christine Kappa, editor of Bloomberg Markets the same She's been 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: a reporter and editor with Bloomberg for twenty years. I 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: first met Christine in the early aughts in the London office, 17 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: when she was wrestling with stories about Merrill Lynch's bond desk. 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: We're recording this on Tuesday. The book Keeping at It 19 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: should be available wherever you buy good books. Christine, welcome 20 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: to Benchmark. Thanks for having me. It's a it's a pleasure, Christine. 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: Congratulations on the book. How did you come to work 22 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: with Paul Wolker on it? Well, it really does a 23 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: hugely lucky break. Unlike the two of you, I'm not 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: an economics expert, as you know, I have been covering 25 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: the financial industry here for a long time at Bloomberg, 26 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 1: and I happen to know a man named Peter Osenos 27 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: who runs a publishing firm called Public Affairs. He's quite 28 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: close to Paul Volker, having having published Mr Walker's book 29 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: in h called Changing Fortunes. So Peter called me up 30 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: one day and said that Paul Wolker was interested in 31 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: writing a memoir. But at that point he was a 32 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: vettor ninety and Peter, who's been in publishing for a 33 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 1: long time, thought it might make sense to have somebody 34 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: work with him, And it might make most sense if 35 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: it was somebody in New York City who could easily 36 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: get back and forth to Paul's office and um to 37 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: his home to work with him. So was I interested, 38 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: and I said, let me think about it for one 39 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: day and pretty quickly realized this was a once in 40 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: a lifetime opportunity. Even though I had never written a 41 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: book and I was an expert economics, I couldn't imagine 42 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: there was any downside and getting to spend time with 43 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: Paul Walker and learned all his stories and just see 44 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: what that was like. So, um, that's what I did. 45 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: And uh, and I think Peter's view was that there'd 46 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: be some kind of chemistry that we would work well together. 47 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure why he had that insight, but 48 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: it proved to be correct. Paul didn't know me from Adam. 49 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: When he was introduced to me, he immediately was very 50 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: friendly and very willing to work with me, and we 51 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: started having regular meetings where I would record these interviews 52 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: with him, with the thought being that I would eventually 53 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: take the transcripts and blend them all into a book. 54 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: But of course, you know, even though he was kind 55 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: of in and out of the hospital with various health issues, 56 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: he ended up started churning out pages and pages on 57 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: a yellow pad of basically the manuscript and having his 58 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: assistant typed them up. And I looked at them and said, well, 59 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,839 Speaker 1: these are really good. Keep going. So I would get 60 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: these emailed files his assistant would you know, send them 61 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: along to me, and I would work with Paul and 62 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: them and he was just great. And I kept waiting 63 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: for him to become in some way, you know, difficult 64 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: to our dolimineering or stubborn or something, and he was. 65 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: He never was. We just had a great time. I 66 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: never went to a meeting with him, and we we 67 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: we've been meeting now for more than a year, several 68 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: times a week. I never left a meeting with him 69 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: not feeling happier than when I went into it. He's 70 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: just a wonderful guy. And I learned so much every 71 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: every meeting. Okay, now, twice in that answer, you've mentioned 72 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: that you're not an economics expert. You don't have a 73 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: background in economics. I think you're selling yourself a little 74 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: short here. You have run finance reporting at Bloomberg News. 75 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: But to the core of that question, did that make 76 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: your role easier or harder not having formal qualifications in economics. 77 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: I think it was probably a little bit of both. 78 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: So I I didn't have the familiarity with some of 79 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: the um stories that both of you I'm sure would 80 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: have had, so I had to do more research to 81 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: understand them. But I also sort of forced him to 82 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: explain things that maybe somebody who was very comfortable with 83 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: economics wouldn't have needed explained and might have been just 84 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: more willing to fall into sort of a jargony insider voice. Um. 85 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 1: That said, he his natural inclination is to be pretty 86 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: plain spoken. So a lot of the out of the 87 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: book is very readable just because he writes in a 88 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: very readable way. He doesn't like to um to use jargon. 89 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: He really doesn't. I mean, I don't. I don't know 90 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: if can I tell the story about how we came 91 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: up with the title. Okay, So we really struggled with 92 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: the title, and it was very telling about him because 93 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: but we were coming up with all these titles that 94 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: sounded like, you know, the titles of a great man's book, 95 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: you know, um, Mr Chairman, and you know, things with 96 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: great sort of august themes, and he couldn't stand that. 97 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: He really was opposed to anything that sounded pompous. He 98 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: didn't want anything like, for instance, Ben Bernanke's book The 99 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: Courage to Act. He was allergic to that type of 100 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: tone in his in in a book title. So we 101 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: kept going back and forth, and there's a story if 102 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: you read the book that he starts out with a joke, 103 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: and the joke is about a parent. And so he 104 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: wanted the title to be, and he was quite serious 105 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: with this. He wanted the title to be The Wise 106 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: Parrot Speaks, and the publisher and I and everybody around 107 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: him sort of said, well, that's very funny, but I 108 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: don't think anybody will understand it. They don't really necessarily 109 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: recognize what that's about. And he said, yeah, but that'll 110 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: that'll intrigue people. People buy it anyway. So we had 111 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: a lot of we had a lot of discussion that 112 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: this was probably the most difficult thing. And then finally 113 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: one day I said, well, there's this phrase in some 114 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: of the minutes sustained commitment, which I think sort of 115 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: sums up your description of your life and you're fighting 116 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,559 Speaker 1: against inflation. And he looked at me and said, keeping 117 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: at it, and I realized, like, that's the simplest way 118 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: to say sustained commitment. So that's that became the title. 119 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,239 Speaker 1: So he gave up on The Wise Parrot Speaks, and 120 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: UH gracefully suggested the title that we have now. Um, 121 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear that. I'm curious also, Christine, you 122 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: know some more about the collaboration process that you were 123 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: starting to go into. Yeah. I think he refers to 124 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: in his book that that that you were checking and 125 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: rechecking some of his anecdotes. I mean, as someone in 126 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: his forties now, I think it would be difficult for 127 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: me to write my own memoir. And yet at age 128 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: he was recalling things from his childhood, you know, all 129 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: sorts of events early in his life, a lot of 130 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: his work life in the fifties, in sixties at the 131 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: Treasury and and the Fed. How were you able to, 132 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: you know, to flesh out some of these stories that 133 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: he told. Well, one thing that's so remarkable about his 134 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: life is almost every chapter there are stories that have 135 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: entire books written about them. So my my home office 136 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: right now is stacked from from Florida ceiling with various books, 137 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: which in many cases are just to sort of do 138 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: more research on a few paragraphs in one chapter of 139 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: his book. So you know, I just wentn't to find 140 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: any kind of source material, I shood there are a 141 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: lot of it was and you if you look at 142 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: the notes, a lot of it is looking back at 143 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: news articles from the time. You know, there are great 144 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: archives on the New York Times website, for instance, which 145 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: really help, and then newspapers dot com things like that 146 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: where you can find news articles about events as they 147 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: were happening, and that's that was a pretty helpful way 148 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: to check things. Many people would recognize Vulcar as the 149 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: central banker that broke the back of inflation, of course 150 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: in the United States. How comfortable is he with this 151 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: kind of canonization, Well, I he appreciates that, with the 152 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: fact that people um sometimes still come up to him 153 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: on the street and thank him for what he did, 154 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: He's humbled by it, but he's grateful, and he feels 155 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: so strongly about serving the country that to know that 156 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: he's done something that people feel made a difference, I 157 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: think matters a lot to him. I think he's constantly 158 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: coming up with new things he wants to fix in 159 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: the country, and he's also quite humble about ways in 160 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: which he failed to do things. I mean, there's a 161 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: lot of the beginning of the book is about his 162 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: failure to basically create an international monetary system, and once 163 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: Breton Woods broke down and he was really he was 164 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: really upset about that. So um, there's a combination in 165 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 1: the book of I think him telling the sort of 166 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: heroic story of Paul Wolker, which you can't avoid but 167 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: admit is heroic in many respects, but also being quite 168 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: self critical at points. He doesn't always come off as 169 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: an amazing superhero. Do circumstances create the man or does 170 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: the man shape the circumstances. Would anyone serving as chair 171 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: of the FADE, given the inflation landscape at the time, 172 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 1: have taken the steps he took. Well, that's interesting thing 173 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: that he likes to talk about. So obviously he followed 174 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: two FED chairman who didn't take the action that was required. 175 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: When he was brought in, the problem was so acute 176 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: that he felt that he had great support in doing 177 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: things that were very difficult. So he he does sort 178 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: of admit that as much as he gets credit for 179 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: being strong and fighting back against politicians who wanted to 180 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: impeach him, he always felt there was this reserve of 181 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: public support from him because things had gotten so bad 182 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: and they were at such a point of crisis. So Um, however, 183 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: I mean, he did have to be very clever and 184 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: how he did that, and there's a section and how 185 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: he where he describes the decision to target the money 186 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: supply as effectively sort of lashing the FED to the mast. 187 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: They had no choice but to follow through, and that 188 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: inoculated him against some criticisms because he could say, we're 189 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: just looking at the money supply. We're sorry, he and 190 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: he admits if if he had ever been told interest 191 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: rates were going to go up, he might have just 192 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: run away immediately, but he sort of he sort of 193 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: created a system where he almost had had an ability 194 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: and the Fed had ability to say, it's out of 195 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: our hands. We're just we're just looking at something else. 196 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: Interest rates are not under our control anymore. We'll get 197 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: back to the issue of targets in a minute. It 198 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: seems like Christine that you know, there are so many 199 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: interesting stories about his early life and his childhood, and 200 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: one of them in there may even have informed his 201 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: thinking when he was at the FED in the late 202 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: seventies without him even knowing it. And it seems like 203 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: it that that comes from his mother's economics textbook that 204 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: he found from all the way back in nineteen eleven 205 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: and the notes she wrote in the margins. Can you 206 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about that part of the story. Yeah, 207 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: this is this is this was an amazing discovery. I mean, 208 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: we talked a lot in the book about his father 209 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: and they influence his father and his father's career in 210 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: public service had on Paul. But what was really interesting 211 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: was right towards the end when that we already actually 212 00:11:57,679 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: put out the Galley version of the book and we're 213 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: making final corrections to it. I was at his home 214 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: and I was looking through He has this room with 215 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: the you know, bookcases all around the room, and I 216 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: was looking for a book that he said I could 217 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: find somewhere, and I found another book and it was 218 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: a tiny, little hard wound volume which was printed in 219 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen hundreds. It was it was his 220 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: his mother's Vasser economics text book from nineteen eleven. It 221 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: had a lot of her handwriting in it. All all 222 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: the margins were covered with her handwriting, and including on 223 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: page eight, I think there was a sentence where she 224 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: had scrawled economic laws cannot be dependent upon if we 225 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: disregard psychology, et cetera. And I showed this to him 226 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: and he was, first of all, he'd just dunfounded, he'd 227 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: forgotten he had it. It reminded him that his mother 228 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: had been I guess, really passionate about economics, studying it 229 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: before the FED was created in nineteen eleven. Anyway, he 230 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: he had completely forgotten how much his mother cared about economics, 231 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: and also that people were having this in site about 232 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: the importance of psychology even before. He sort of feels 233 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: that he had that insight during his career at the fact, 234 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: in the understanding that you had to find a simple 235 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: way to communicate with the public about what you were 236 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: doing and the money supply with the way to do it. 237 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: He appointment in nineteen sev nine by Jimmy Carter can 238 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: also be seen as the start of the quote unquote 239 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: model an era in central banking. Uh thereafter inflation not 240 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: so much of a problem, but also the idea of 241 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: policy and the controversy that it's sometimes courted being associated 242 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: with a single figure, and it sort of helps that 243 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: he's this towering guy. Do you think Carter knew what 244 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: he was getting into when Volka was appointed? How big 245 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: a job was the Federal Reserve chairman back in the day. Well, 246 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: he describes how there was a lot of controversy he 247 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: knows about appointing him, and there was a camp in 248 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: the Carter White House that was very opposed to appointing 249 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: him because they recognized he would be independent, they wouldn't 250 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: be able to control him. He was likely to raise 251 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: interest rates a lot. That was not going to be 252 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: good for Carter and his reelection chances. And they were right, 253 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: But there were obviously other voices that persuaded him. It 254 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: was important he was going to be popular and Wills 255 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: read for instance, and and Carter realized the problems were 256 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: so bad he couldn't get anything done that he had 257 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: to deal with this inflation problem and basically took a bullet, 258 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: basically agreed to do this. And it was one of 259 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: the things that perhaps cost some re election. But yes, 260 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: so you have this FED chairman who's got the willingness 261 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: of the President and also his successor, Ronald Reagan, who 262 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: supported him publicly all the time to do what what 263 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: needed to be done. And uh, and he did it. 264 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: And that was a big difference because a lot of 265 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: other FED chairman had had I mean, Arthur Burns had 266 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: a great you know, he was very well respected figure, 267 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: he was very well known, but he just didn't do 268 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: what was required. Through the eighties when you and I 269 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: were growing up, there was a narrative that the Carti 270 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: years were sort of a shorthand for American weakness and 271 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: American failure. That view, you know, has come into some 272 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: scrutiny lately, and President Carter looks better with a couple 273 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: of decades hindsight. How does folk feel about President card Well, 274 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: so early in our discussions, early in our meetings, he 275 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: was reading the early version of Stuart Eisenstadt's book about Carter, 276 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: and there's a big chapter in there about Vulcar and uh, 277 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: and he was very pleased by that, you know, because 278 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: Stewart Eisenstadt was one of those people who opposed Vulcar 279 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: back in the day. He was, you know, more on 280 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: the liberal wing. He was afraid about high interest rates. 281 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: But now in hindsight recognized and recognizes that one of 282 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: the great things that President Carter did was named Paul Wolker. 283 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: And President Carter has always said that as well. So 284 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: I think, you know, obviously Paul Wolker loves that, and uh, 285 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: and I think he really respects Carter and and his 286 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: willingness to do the difficult things. Um and and sort 287 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: of the way he also has behaved in his post 288 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: presidency He sees him as a really great public servant 289 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: who hasn't quite gotten his due. He recognized this, that 290 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: he made mistakes, and there are reasons that, you know, 291 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: Reagan was able to achieve things that Carter wasn't. But 292 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, I think he considers Carter one of the 293 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: presidents he admires. For sure. It sounds like he thinks 294 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: or is still underwrited. Yes, I would say that's true, Christine. 295 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: In the thirty years since Vulcar left the chairmanship of 296 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: the FED, he's rarely set still. He served on many 297 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: public commissions, reparations for Nazi victims, the the Obama uh 298 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: financial regulation initiative that eventually became the Vulcar Rule. He 299 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: even expresses some amusement that his name always became attached 300 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: to these commissions, like the Vulgar Commission, the Vulcar this 301 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: the Vulgar that does any of these? Do any of 302 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: these particular roles stand out for him as the most 303 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: memorable or the most important in his post FED career. Uh? Well, 304 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: I mean he talks about how pretty much the first 305 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: thing he left he left to do after leaving the 306 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: FED was to serve on a national commission for public service, 307 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: and then he immediately served on another one, and he 308 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: has devoted his career in the last few years to 309 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: an organization called the Vulkan Alliance, which is trying to 310 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: improve public service. So I think that, above all is 311 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: the thing that he cares about the most. Obviously these 312 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: other things. Trying to end corruption is incredibly important to him, 313 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: and he feels very proud of what they did, um 314 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: with getting some money back for the families of Holocaust victims, um. 315 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: But you know the thing, that thing that really strikes 316 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: me about all of that is that he he did 317 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: a lot of these very difficult, very controversial jobs that 318 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: required somebody of great integrity, and he wouldn't take money 319 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: for that. And I sort of mentioned this to him 320 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: while we were working on the book, that should we 321 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: mention you didn't take money. He said, now, so we 322 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: don't even have that in the book. But he he 323 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: really felt that it was important to do and he 324 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: didn't want to get renumerated for it. I want to 325 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: get back to this issue of his chairmanship and the 326 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: dawn of the modern central bank. I mean, again partly 327 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: helped by the break of inflation and the fact that 328 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: Vulcar is physically a very big guy. Do you think 329 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: that the cult of personality surrounding many central bankers in 330 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: the world today is a good thing, and more importantly, 331 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: does Vulca think it's a good thing. Well, I I 332 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: don't think we ever talked about the cult of personality, 333 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: but I'll tell you a few things that he said 334 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: that sort of connected to that. One is that it 335 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: bothers him that he's sometimes criticized for being having been 336 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: secretive at the FED. And he will point out that 337 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: there was one year he testified in front of Congress 338 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: something like thirty four times. He felt he was on 339 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: things like the Sunday Morning Meet the Press shows, which 340 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 1: you don't see the FED chairman do anymore. He was 341 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: very out there, So it bothers him that he's sort 342 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: of sometimes tagged with the secrecy thing. He also feels 343 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: very strongly that it's helpful to have central bankers who 344 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: aren't just academic economists. He reserves a little bit of 345 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: scorn for the academic economists in the book, and things 346 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 1: like econometrics he's not a fan of. Well. He talks 347 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: about how how he was going to get his PhD 348 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: but kept putting it off and putting it off. Yeah, yeah, 349 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: he never He never did his dissertation, and he really 350 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: feels what he what he learned about economics that served 351 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: him well was understanding the psychology of the market from 352 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: sitting on the trading desk at the New York FED 353 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: and from being a chase for two stints in his 354 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: early career and working in the Treasury department. So he 355 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: is very supportive of having people at the FED who 356 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: aren't just academic economists. So I'd say, you know, the 357 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: current FED chairman who served in the Treasury, he served 358 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: in business. He's he likes that about him. That's what 359 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: I would say. More than anything, he thinks you should 360 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: have people who really understand the markets in the real world. Christine, 361 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: on a lighter note, I learned some new words in 362 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: this book, and there was one in particular on page 363 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: one oh nine called disappeal. I guess it's a French 364 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: word and it means the state of being dressed only 365 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: partially or nightclothes. And it doesn't that make the book 366 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: sound sexy? Don't you want to run into that? Central 367 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: Banking is sexy, but full of words like that that 368 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: doesn't really use it in a in a sexy ways 369 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: us to refer to some people protesting the FEDS monetary policy. 370 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: But I understand that he did have a very fascinating vocabulary. 371 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, 372 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: I mean that. One thing that was interesting to me 373 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: as sort of the professional writer who came into that 374 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: exercise and him being a you know, central banker and 375 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: government official, was how often I would come across these 376 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: words that he would use that I'd say, Wow, that's 377 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: an interesting, unusual word, and I'd look it up and 378 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: and he'd nailed it. He'd find that he'd find these 379 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: uses of words that I wouldn't. And I did look 380 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: in this book because I wanted to talk about it. 381 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: I couldn't find any quick examples. But that's a good 382 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: one that dil. We had a whole debate about whether 383 00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: that was really the right word. We looked it up 384 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: in various dictionaries. But he cared immensely about word choice, 385 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: and he would go back and forth and come up 386 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: with exactly. You know, we we discuss what is the 387 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: best word to describe this person? You know? And and 388 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: when you read Minutes, you see how much of the 389 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: discussion often comes down to how do we communicate this 390 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: particular idea and what what wording should we use in 391 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: the statement, because so much about how central bankers communicate 392 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: and and do their job is through word choice and 393 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: writing and communications and and so so he does have 394 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: this gift for language, which I hadn't really anticipated when 395 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: I went into it. I've written thousands of words about 396 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: one or two words in the FED statement. I can 397 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: exactly agree with that. On the subject of the minutes. 398 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: Back to the transparency issue, it is also true we've 399 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: become accustomed two minutes of each Federal Open Market Committee 400 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: meeting coming out three weeks after that meeting. That didn't 401 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: used to be the case, and certainly was not the 402 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: case in the Volka era. Right. No, and actually in 403 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: his early years, I mean or actually through his career, 404 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: they never they never stated what the FED funds rate 405 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: was going to be. They would state what they were 406 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: doing in the money supply, and people in the market 407 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: were paid a lot of money to try to figure 408 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: out what the FED funds rate was going to going 409 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: to do. And it's only more recently and he and 410 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: he's not completely convinced that that's better, you know. So, 411 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: there's some ways in which this transparency has gone maybe 412 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: beyond what he thinks is right, and he and he 413 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: admits maybe he's wrong. Maybe it's just he's used to 414 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: the way it was, but he thought there was a 415 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: certain flexibility they had and not having to come right 416 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: out and say here's what the Fed funds rate is 417 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: going to be. Now he reserves some special scrutiny for 418 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 1: a very small country on the far side of the world. 419 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about Australia. I am talking about 420 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: the place right next door. What is his bugaboo with 421 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: New Zealand. Well, his bugaboo is not so much with 422 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: New Zealand, which he commends for its excellent fishing. But 423 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: he talks in the end of the book about this 424 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: idea of targeting two percent inflation, which, as somebody who 425 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: fought inflation, he doesn't like the idea of trying to 426 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: create inflation of any number. And so it puzzles him 427 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: and frustrates him that everybody is obsessed with trying to 428 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: get inflation up to two percent. Getting inflation up is 429 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: anathemat Now he's for down, He's for down, easy, for 430 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: lower inflation, no inflation. But he so he has this 431 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: whole section which we ran on Bloomberg opinion as well 432 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: about how that number came to be. How the where 433 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: the two percent come from? And he said, he thinks 434 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: it's from the Reserve Bank of New Zealand, which decided 435 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: they needed to take drastic action on inflation back in 436 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: the early nineties, late eighties, and they set a two 437 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: percent target and got there and found it was a 438 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,479 Speaker 1: very effective means of fighting inflation. And so it's been 439 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: adopted by other countries. Not least target have proliferated. I mean, 440 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: the US has a version of two, European Central Bank, 441 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: Bank of Japan, Sweden, you name it, far and wide. 442 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: How much do these numerical targets and the almost sacramental 443 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: quality that they've taken on hinder good policy in his 444 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: view greatly the policy should be. You know, it's kind 445 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: of the difference between principles based regulation and rules based regulation, 446 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: which is another bugaboo of his. He likes things to 447 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: be based on principles. You know, let's let's have inflation 448 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: that doesn't you know, price stability, you know, you know, 449 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: when prices are reasonably stable because they don't effect of 450 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: business or consumer decisions. That's what he wants. He doesn't 451 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: like this idea of being so precise on the numbers, 452 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: because he thinks it's ridiculous. The data is not that precise, 453 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: and there's this kind of false belief in precision that 454 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: troubles him. Christine just wants to wrap up with a 455 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,719 Speaker 1: couple of final questions here. You know, there's this sense 456 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 1: of public service under current of his commitment to good government, 457 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: like like you were talking about that that really runs 458 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: throughout the book. And yet you know, someone might think, 459 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: is this a screed against Donald Trump? And it's it's 460 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: really not. The words Donald Trump only appear once in 461 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: the book, that the Trump administration has mentioned only a 462 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: handful of times. He even even positively once or twice. 463 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: And Folker says several times he's often labeled as a Democrat, 464 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: but he actually gave up his political affiliation many decades ago, 465 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: and he really tries to be a political And yet 466 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: and yet we can sense that he's really no big 467 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: fan of President Trump. Why did he not go any 468 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: further in this book. Well, he at his root does 469 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: not believe in being political. His father wasn't a political 470 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: city manager who executed excellent management of the city of 471 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: t Neck, New Jersey and helped turn it around and 472 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: it as FED chairman, he didn't think you should be political. 473 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: He's been so much of his career in the in 474 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: the FED, he served under Democrats and Republicans. He doesn't 475 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: think that the issues for him are about which party 476 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: is in office. It's really about are they running things well? 477 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: How can it be better effective government? And so to 478 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: the degree that the Trump administration is not effective and 479 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: is not running things well, he's obviously unhappy, but he 480 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: also sees that there have been other administrations, both Democratic 481 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: and Republican, who have done the same, and he he 482 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: specifically calls out Ronald Reagan for having started this kind 483 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: of language about government being the problem that has infiltrated 484 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: are our discourse in this country and reduced the trust 485 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: in government. You know, looking back over old magazine covers, 486 00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: Vulker is often pictured surrounded by these clouds of smoke. 487 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: Now were they from cigars? Were they from pipes? What 488 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: did he like to smoke? And it's inconceivable we would 489 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: see that today. Does he think society has become too sanitized? No? Actually, 490 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: I mean most of the photos you'll see in stock 491 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: photography of him or him with this big cigar. He 492 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: was famous for his cheap cigars. He'd never liked to 493 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 1: smoke expensive cigars because he, you know, was very frugal 494 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: at heart, And so I actually persuaded him to include 495 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: a few a short little section on his cigars, because 496 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: he has an interesting story about how he decided to 497 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: quit right around the time he left the FED, and 498 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: he really is so glad he quit and feels so 499 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: guilty actually for subjecting so many people to the cigar 500 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: smoke for so long. It was I think in part 501 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: of prop you know, it helped calm him down. He 502 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: um recognizes that society changed. He's in no way trying 503 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: to persuade anybody to smoke ours. Christine. Finally, this book 504 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: was actually not supposed to come out for a few 505 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: more weeks. The publisher moved it up to, uh, the 506 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: end of October. Can you tell us a little bit 507 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: about that decision. Yes, that was pretty unusual for the publisher, 508 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: and we're grateful they were able to do that. Paul's 509 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: pretty sick. He was in great shape and still going 510 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: to the office until mid August, and you know, really 511 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: worked hard, hard, hard, often staying later in the office 512 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: and his assistant or I would working away on his 513 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: draft and taking the bus and going to uh fishing 514 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: trips and things like that. And then in August he 515 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: was diagnosed with pretty serious illness. So he's been he's 516 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: been home and he's you know, fighting this and you know, 517 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: he's ninety one, so he's doing his best to keep going, 518 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: keeping at it, so to speak, exactly all right. Christine Harper, 519 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: editor of Bloomberg Markets magazine and collaborator with Paul Vulker 520 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: on the new book Keeping at It. We're very grateful 521 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: that you were able to join us on Benchmark. Thank 522 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: you so much, Christine, Thank you so much for having me. 523 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: Benchmark will be back next week. Until then, you can 524 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com, our 525 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg app, as well as podcast destinations like Apple Podcast, 526 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: Spotify or wherever you listen. We'd love it if you 527 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: talk the time to rate and review the show so 528 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: more people can find us. You can follow me on 529 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: Twitter at moss Underscore Echo, I'm at start Lammin and Christine, 530 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: you are d r under Poor Harper. Benchmark is produced 531 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: by Topah Foreheads, the head of Bloomberg podcasts is Francesca 532 00:30:51,000 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: lev thanks for listening, See you next time. Four