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Speaker 1: From Bloomberg News and iHeartRadio. It's the big take. I'm

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Speaker 1: west Kesova today a gun designed to reduce accidental deaths

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Speaker 1: and suicide. We're faced all the time in the US

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Speaker 1: with horrifying news of mass shootings and the go nowhere

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Speaker 1: arguments that follow over what can be done to keep

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Speaker 1: firearms out of the hands of those who intentionally use

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Speaker 1: them to kill others. But accidental gun injuries and deaths,

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Speaker 1: especially among kids and teenagers, as well as people who

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Speaker 1: use guns to take their own lives, are also a

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Speaker 1: large and growing problem. Now, a young inventor in Colorado

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Speaker 1: named Kai Klupfer is working on a new handgun specifically

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Speaker 1: designed to prevent these tragedies. It uses technology to stop

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Speaker 1: it from being fired by anyone but its owner.

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Speaker 2: The key thing that we are trying to solve, which

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Speaker 2: I think we could completely solve, is children and teenagers

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Speaker 2: getting access firearms. We think that by building technology that

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Speaker 2: busy works with the gun owner to enforce what they're

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Speaker 2: already looking to do, allows us to really actually address

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Speaker 2: that portion of the challenge of busy gun doests in America.

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Speaker 1: In a new Business Week's story, Bloomberg reporter Ashley Vance

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Speaker 1: writes about how the gun works.

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Speaker 3: So as you're walking up to it, this white light

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Speaker 3: sort of goes off, and that signals, hey, the gun

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Speaker 3: knows somebody's getting near it, somebody's about to hold it.

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Speaker 1: And whether gun rights advocates will embrace this new safety

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Speaker 1: feature or oppose it.

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Speaker 3: You can look back going twenty years at different efforts

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Speaker 3: to make smart guns, most of them not terribly inspiring.

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Speaker 3: The trend seems to have been trying to slap a

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Speaker 3: fingerprint sensor onto an existing gun, or a lot of

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Speaker 3: them had watches that were compared to the gun to

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Speaker 3: give you some kind of location to the person. But

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Speaker 3: pretty much they all required just too many steps and

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Speaker 3: often failed in demos and really did the smart gun

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Speaker 3: effort no favors to date?

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Speaker 1: Why have people tried to develop them? Like, what is

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Speaker 1: the appeal of a smart gun?

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Speaker 3: It has a couple different fronts to it. One is

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Speaker 3: just if you think of it, I almost started thinking

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Speaker 3: of it almost just like a seatbelt in a car.

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Speaker 3: It's just this extra thing we're putting on, something that

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Speaker 3: some people use all the time, and it's this extra

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Speaker 3: safeguard and so on the one hand, you could prevent

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Speaker 3: accidents in the home. Obviously, a kid finds a gun

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Speaker 3: and pulls the trigger and it's loaded, this would stop

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Speaker 3: something like that happening. There's the thought that this could

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Speaker 3: also prevent a lot of suicides. It would make it

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Speaker 3: that much harder, especially for a young person to find

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Speaker 3: a gun that they could get their hands on. It

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Speaker 3: would give them this extra moment of pause to think

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Speaker 3: about what they were doing. The last big bucket is

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Speaker 3: someone like a police officer who's afraid that their weapon

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Speaker 3: might be turned against them, and so again you have

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Speaker 3: this extra safeguard.

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Speaker 1: And obviously we're having yet another year where we're seeing

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Speaker 1: a lot of mass shootings, just another one very recently.

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Speaker 1: Is there any argument why a smart gun might bring

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Speaker 1: down that sort of violence.

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Speaker 3: On the mass shootings? Not really, if we're being honest.

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Speaker 3: The biggest case for smart guns, at least it seems

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Speaker 3: to me, is that we have a lot of people

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Speaker 3: who are eighteen or under who are not supposed to

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Speaker 3: be buying guns. They're not allowed to buy guns. Mostly

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Speaker 3: this is aimed at these kids who shouldn't be able

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Speaker 3: to get a gun, and if they do now, they

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Speaker 3: wouldn't be able to use it, you know, in a

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Speaker 3: lot of these shootings. Sadly, we see people coming in

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Speaker 3: with assault rifles and weapons that are sort of beyond

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Speaker 3: what these measures would protect.

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Speaker 1: So, as you say, people have been trying to develop

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Speaker 1: this technology all different kinds of ways for a long

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Speaker 1: time and they haven't been able to do it. But

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Speaker 1: now you write about a young man named Kai Kluppfer

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Speaker 1: who seems to have kind of unlocked the coat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's only twenties now, he's been working on this

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Speaker 3: since he was fifteen. So you've got kind of the

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Speaker 3: person on a quest, this young man who was possessed

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Speaker 3: by this idea of making a smart gun and was

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Speaker 3: very committed to it and has seen it through all

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Speaker 3: these years. And then I think it's also the technology

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Speaker 3: has really gotten to the point where this is a

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Speaker 3: lot more feasible than it used to be. Kai's company

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Speaker 3: is called Biofire, and they have a smart gun that

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Speaker 3: has a fingerprint reader on it and it has facial

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Speaker 3: recognition on it. It's a lot like your smartphone. And

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Speaker 3: so you know, this is technology that Apple and Google

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Speaker 3: and Samsung and everyone else has really refined over the

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Speaker 3: last ten years to make it work very well, work

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Speaker 3: cost effectively, and So Kai is the first person that

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Speaker 3: I've run across who really took this ground up approach

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Speaker 3: to starting from scratch and really making a gun that works,

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Speaker 3: but with all this stuff baked into it, as opposed

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Speaker 3: to just slapping things on an existing weapon.

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Speaker 1: And Ashley, you got a chance to speak to Kai

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Speaker 1: klupp For about this gun. Listen to what he had

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Speaker 1: to say.

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Speaker 2: The number one kind of key challenge here is building

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Speaker 2: something that is reliable enough both that is always going

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Speaker 2: to be locked when the owner needs it to be locked,

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Speaker 2: but also that is always going to be unlocked when

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Speaker 2: the owner needs to be unlocked. And both of those

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Speaker 2: are really important. You can't just have one or the other.

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Speaker 2: And we've never seen in some of the kind of

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Speaker 2: failed attempts from other folks in the past, we've never

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Speaker 2: seen people actually achieve both of those. In most cases,

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Speaker 2: they don't achieve either of them.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about Kay klub For and how he came

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Speaker 1: to develop this gun.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he grew up in Colorado. His parents were lawyers,

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Speaker 3: but he was always this tinkerer at home. He was

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Speaker 3: at the age of eleven making customs circuit boards of

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Speaker 3: the family garage. He was always running around with his

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Speaker 3: engineering textbooks, just one of those people who's wired that

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Speaker 3: way and.

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Speaker 4: Had been entering science fairs and things like that.

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Speaker 3: When he was fifteen, the Aurora shooting happened, where a

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Speaker 3: gunman went into a theater and killed about a dozen

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Speaker 3: people and injured many dozens more. This one hit very

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Speaker 3: close to home for Kai physically and emotionally. It was

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Speaker 3: about a half hour from his house.

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Speaker 2: For me, growing up, you know, I was fortunate enough

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Speaker 2: to not have to think about gun violence or gundest

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Speaker 2: and that was really my first sort of encounter with

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Speaker 2: the topic.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: I was just starting to grow up, just starting to

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Speaker 2: think about these kind of topics as a fifteen year

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Speaker 2: old and really start to think about how how can

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Speaker 2: we do something about this? Really, how could we you know,

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Speaker 2: start to kind of tive away the problem in some way.

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Speaker 3: And so you had this fifteen year old who saw

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Speaker 3: this as his calling. He didn't think that he could

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Speaker 3: stop mass shootings, but he wanted to do something to

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Speaker 3: try to curb gun violence. And so he really settled

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Speaker 3: on this idea of a smart gun, and he began

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Speaker 3: just chasing after his usual sort of science fair exploits.

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Speaker 3: He began trying to make prototypes of this smart gun

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Speaker 3: for science fairs and did quite well at it. He

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Speaker 3: wins first prize. It's a very prestigious science fairs, and

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Speaker 3: this gets the attention of There's a gentleman named Ron

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Speaker 3: Conway in Silicon Valley who's a very famous angel investor.

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Speaker 3: After Sandy Hook another tragedy shooting, he had been looking

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Speaker 3: to fund some smart gun type technology and so Kai

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Speaker 3: got a fifty thousand dollars grant as a high schooler

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Speaker 3: to pursue the prototype some more. And so he just

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Speaker 3: kept at it. He went to MIT. He was there

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Speaker 3: for two years. He wasn't able to work on his

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Speaker 3: prototypes as much since it was a university setting and

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Speaker 3: they didn't want him experimenting in his dorm room, but

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Speaker 3: he worked a lot on his business plan around what

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Speaker 3: a company might look like that made this and after

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Speaker 3: two years at MIT and a gap year, he dropped out.

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Speaker 3: And then Peter Tiel one of the most prominent and

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Speaker 3: controversial venture capitalists in Silicon Valley, one of the original

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Speaker 3: backers of Facebook. He actually has this program called a

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Speaker 3: Teal Fellowship where he pays usually undergraduates one hundred thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars to drop out of college and start a business,

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Speaker 3: and so so Kai had already dropped out, but he

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Speaker 3: was qualified for this teal fellowship. So he got one

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Speaker 3: hundred tho dollars to formally create biofire as a company.

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Speaker 3: And so at that point, he's around twenty years old

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Speaker 3: and he.

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Speaker 4: Starts this company.

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Speaker 3: He hires a couple people, he keeps working on these prototypes,

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Speaker 3: and at that point, after a little while, he moves

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Speaker 3: the company from Boston back to Colorado.

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Speaker 1: And you spend quite a bit of time with him

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Speaker 1: when you were reporting this story. What's he like.

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Speaker 4: He's sort of this old soul.

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Speaker 3: He's just always incredibly well prepared for any question you

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Speaker 3: can send his way. He could tell you all the

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Speaker 3: merits of smart guns back and forth. He's clearly an engineer.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he could talk very technically about this gun.

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Speaker 2: I've been working on smart guns broadly for over ten

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Speaker 2: years now. It's about forty percent of my life, which

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Speaker 2: is sort of scared to thing about. I was always

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Speaker 2: an engineer. There's some pretty hilarious photos out there of me,

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Speaker 2: like running around at like summer camp with an electionbal

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Speaker 2: and shaering textbook. I think everybody thought it was just

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Speaker 2: absolutely insane. And so I'd always love building things. I'd

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Speaker 2: dide a whole series of different projects, none of which

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Speaker 2: had any i think, like societal value or anything, but

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Speaker 2: you know, just ways for me to learn and you know,

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Speaker 2: try lots of different things. Yeah, and so I started

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Speaker 2: thinking about this concept of a smart gun, and in particular,

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Speaker 2: after I started digging too this again, I was no

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Speaker 2: expert on gun deaths or public health issues or anything

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Speaker 2: like that, I started to realize that, to my surprise,

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Speaker 2: over two thirds of all gun deaths are the result

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Speaker 2: of suicides and access. That was true ten years ago,

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Speaker 2: it's true today as well. In fact, the percentage has

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Speaker 2: only gotten larger. And so where you know, what I'd

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Speaker 2: heard about was always the mass shootings, the violent crime homicides.

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Speaker 2: The fact that two thirds are this sort of like silent,

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of portion where he almost never hear

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Speaker 2: about suicide and access really sort of startled me. And

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Speaker 2: it also lends itself to an engineering or technical based

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Speaker 2: solution much more effectively.

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Speaker 1: Can you describe it? What does it look like? How

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Speaker 1: does it work?

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Speaker 3: It's called the biofire smart gun. It's a handgun. It

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Speaker 3: looks quite similar to standard handguns, very similar to a glock,

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Speaker 3: except it's a bit larger. It's got all of this

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Speaker 3: electronics packed in there, so you know, around the handle,

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Speaker 3: the grip, it's a bit fatter. It's quite larger where

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Speaker 3: there's a battery. I should mention this is a it's

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Speaker 3: an all electric gun. It does have some mechanisms inside

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Speaker 3: of it, but at it's heard it's an electric gun

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Speaker 3: and so, and then you know on the grip it's

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Speaker 3: got a fingerprint sensor. And then right at the back

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Speaker 3: it would be a bit above your hand if you're

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Speaker 3: holding the gun, there's this facial recognition system. And then

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Speaker 3: there's a little device that goes with it. It's about

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Speaker 3: the size of a smartphone. They call it a doc

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Speaker 3: and that's where you can can figure up to five people,

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Speaker 3: have them put their fingerprints on, have it recognize your face,

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Speaker 3: and so you become this registered user.

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Speaker 2: Basically when you first plug it in, it walks you

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Speaker 2: through the onboarding screen and then you can enroll your

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Speaker 2: biometrics basically directly into the firearm. Just like all the data,

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Speaker 2: this is stored encrypted locally on the device. Biofire has

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Speaker 2: no access to your biometrics. We don't process your biometrics anyway.

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Speaker 2: It's all happening inside of the gun. It walks you

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Speaker 2: through the steps. You basically grab it a couple of

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Speaker 2: times to roll your fingerprints, sort of like old Apple

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Speaker 2: touch idy. Yeah, and then you do the same with

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Speaker 2: your face. You know, you look at it, sort of

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Speaker 2: take your head around, et cetera, and it captures your

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Speaker 2: fingerprint in your face, biometrics sores inside the firearm. From

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Speaker 2: that point forward, the only person that can make any

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Speaker 2: changes or configuration changes to the firearm is the owner.

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Speaker 2: You can have permanent users, you can have temporary users,

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Speaker 2: but basically, you know, let's say you have a spouse

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Speaker 2: and want them to have permanent access to firearm, you

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Speaker 2: can easily enroll them just via the touchscreen. Let's say

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Speaker 2: you have you know, maybe a teenage child that you

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Speaker 2: want to take to the range and only have them

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Speaker 2: have access for an hour. You can do that as well,

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Speaker 2: and then it'll be automatically disabled.

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Speaker 4: In full transparency.

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Speaker 3: In my experience on this demo, it was a little

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Speaker 3: finicky when my finger went on there. Other people seem

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Speaker 3: not to have that problem, and I was shooting a

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Speaker 3: prototype which the company said they had noticed this fingerprint

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Speaker 3: issue and have fixed it on the gun that's actually

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Speaker 3: going to.

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Speaker 4: Go on sale.

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Speaker 3: But you do not have to have both the fingerprint

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Speaker 3: and the facial recognition work and so on. The couple

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Speaker 3: instances where my finger was a little off, the facial

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Speaker 3: recognition had already seen me and the gun was ready

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Speaker 3: to fire anyway.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I tested it out.

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Speaker 3: They had a firing range there, and only the people

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Speaker 3: who had gone through this process were able to have

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Speaker 3: anything happen when they pulled the trigger.

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Speaker 4: I had sort of.

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Speaker 3: Two rounds at the shooting range, all standard ammunition.

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Speaker 4: It worked pretty flawlessly.

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Speaker 3: So when you walk up to this gun, it also

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Speaker 3: has a sensor just for somebody's presence, So as you're

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Speaker 3: walking up to it, this white light sort of goes

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Speaker 3: off and that signals, hey, the gun knows somebody's getting

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Speaker 3: near it, somebody's about to hold it. And then right

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Speaker 3: when you pick it up, your finger sort of naturally

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Speaker 3: goes to this sensor, and as you're picking it up,

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Speaker 3: the facial recognitions looking for you in this green light

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Speaker 3: comes on the gun, which means you know, now it's

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Speaker 3: ready to fire, and you know, I mean, it just

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Speaker 3: never glitched We had people come in who were not

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Speaker 3: registered and try to fire it. Like I said, in

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Speaker 3: the past, demos have been the undoing of many of

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Speaker 3: these weapons, and this one worked flawlessly.

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Speaker 1: And so you say it has a button for a

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Speaker 1: trigger as opposed to a traditional trigger.

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Speaker 3: It has an actual trigger. The trigger might as well

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Speaker 3: be a button. It could be anything because the trigger

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Speaker 3: is not actually connected to the firing mechanism. It's what

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Speaker 3: you would call fire by wire. It's sort of like

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Speaker 3: a modern car. When you hit your brakes in the car,

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Speaker 3: it's really just sending a software signal to your brakes

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Speaker 3: and this is very very similar. You pull the trigger

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Speaker 3: and they've made it feel given it some resistance to

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Speaker 3: feel like a trigger, but it's really it's just sending

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Speaker 3: a signal to all these computing systems that are throughout

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Speaker 3: the gun.

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Speaker 1: And how long after you pick it up are you

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Speaker 1: able to fire? Is it immediat or just take a

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Speaker 1: while to figure out who you are?

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Speaker 3: It was way faster than I ever would expect. It

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Speaker 3: goes faster than like human perception. You know, this presence

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Speaker 3: sensor really does notice when somebody is already coming near it,

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Speaker 3: and when I pick it off the table, any change

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Speaker 3: in weight. It knows now there's a humans who's touching

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Speaker 3: this thing, so it sort of puts it in this

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Speaker 3: primed state.

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Speaker 4: And then the.

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Speaker 3: Second it catches your face or your fingerprint, we're not

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Speaker 3: quick enough to notice the time.

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Speaker 4: It's less than a millisecond.

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Speaker 1: After the break. Who will buy this gun and who won't?

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Speaker 1: And since it's an electronic device, does it suffer from

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Speaker 1: the usual things of software updates? So the battery is

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Speaker 1: going to die or it'll become obsolete in a few years,

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Speaker 1: Whereas you know, somebody who owns an analog gun can

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Speaker 1: keep that thing forever and it'll just keep working.

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Speaker 4: This is a really tricky issue.

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Speaker 3: There's a couple things I could say that are basics that, yes,

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Speaker 3: you have to keep this charged. The company says it

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Speaker 3: takes about an hour to charge it up, and it'll

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Speaker 3: last for months in that state and be ready to fire.

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Speaker 3: There's also the computing device I mentioned is a It

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Speaker 3: serves also as a dock, and so you can leave

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Speaker 3: that plugged in the wall and have the gun in

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Speaker 3: there if you so choose.

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Speaker 4: On the updates thing.

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Speaker 3: Now, this is where there's like controversy because a lot

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Speaker 3: of people in the pro gun rights crowd have not

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Speaker 3: been a fan of these guns being connected to the internet,

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Speaker 3: having any sort of information about the owner who's firing it,

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Speaker 3: seeing it as another means of sort of government control

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Speaker 3: or trying to track where you are. And so the

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Speaker 3: gun itself has no wireless communications, no Bluetooth, no Wi Fi,

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Speaker 3: no Internet.

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Speaker 2: It's totally off the grade, right, and that's because, you know,

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Speaker 2: we've gone a pretty extreme links to ensure that all

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Speaker 2: the data that's inside of the firearm is encrypted. It

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Speaker 2: can never be accessed by anybody, including Biofire, and it's

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Speaker 2: stored very securely inside of the firearm. Right. Our customers

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Speaker 2: do very clearly do not want us to have some

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Speaker 2: sort of ability to access additional data anything like that,

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Speaker 2: and so we've worked with some of the best folks

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Speaker 2: in the cybersecurity space to design what is honestly a

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Speaker 2: massively overdesigned cybersecurity implementation to ensure that everything is encrypted

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Speaker 2: locally on the device, using credentials that are generated by

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Speaker 2: the device during manufacturing that Biofire has no access to.

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Speaker 2: We further enhanced that security by having it be wired only. Right,

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Speaker 2: there's no wireless communication in the fire there's no ability

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Speaker 2: to wirelessly talk to or potentially disrupt the functionality the fireman.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, if you choose to update the gun, you can

341
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 3: connect it to this dock and update the software that way. Otherwise,

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00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,240
Speaker 3: you can also just leave the dock completely off the internet,

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Speaker 3: and the company says, you know it'll fire for many

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00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,160
Speaker 3: years without doing any updates, so you can sort of

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Speaker 3: choose which lifestyle you want to lead.

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Speaker 1: The gun movement has been against the development of smart

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Speaker 1: guns for all kinds of reasons for a long time.

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Speaker 1: How are they responding to this one.

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Speaker 3: Nobody's really seen this thing yet, and I'm quite curious

350
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Speaker 3: to see how the gun advocates react to this thing,

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Speaker 3: because I do think it's certainly far more sophisticated than

352
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Speaker 3: anything's come before. So I think this is sort of

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Speaker 3: the moment where we find out what happens when something

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Speaker 3: that actually works is out there, and how people react

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Speaker 3: to it. There have been attempts in a couple states

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Speaker 3: to begin putting legislation in place for if a smart

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Speaker 3: gun that is viable exists, this is how we're going

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Speaker 3: to react to that. New Jersey's sort of the most

359
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,919
Speaker 3: famous or infamous example, depending how you want to look

360
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,520
Speaker 3: at it. But they had put a law into place

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Speaker 3: which said, if a viable smart gun was available, they

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Speaker 3: wanted the entire industry to move towards smart guns and

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Speaker 3: require that to be purchased. And as you can imagine,

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Speaker 3: people got extremely upset and you know, hated the idea

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Speaker 3: that they were going to be forced to buy something.

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Speaker 3: And this happened at a time when when a real

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00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,399
Speaker 3: smart gun really didn't even exist, and so it was

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Speaker 3: a huge blow to the smart gun advocates because it

369
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Speaker 3: was sort of going through all this turmoil before you

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Speaker 3: even had a product that could maybe test and appeal

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Speaker 3: to people and show them the capability of this technology.

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Speaker 3: And so New Jersey, after many years, changed that law

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Speaker 3: and now it really is if a smart gun exists,

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Speaker 3: you must at least carry, you know, one of these

375
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Speaker 3: in your store. And so it's pulled back a lot.

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Speaker 3: In California many years ago, there was a company that

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00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,080
Speaker 3: had an early smart gun prototype and one of the

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00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,200
Speaker 3: stores that was quite excited to sell it. They faced

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00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,120
Speaker 3: all these protests from people and it never even got

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Speaker 3: to the shelves. They had to pull it from the

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Speaker 3: shelves due to all this controversy.

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Speaker 1: Is there any concern that if you have a smart

383
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Speaker 1: gun you sort of have a false sense of safety

384
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Speaker 1: and security in how a gun works and how you

385
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Speaker 1: have to behave around a gun.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

387
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Speaker 3: The gun rights advocates I talked to basically said I was.

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Speaker 4: A problem number one in some of this, and that

389
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Speaker 4: I am.

390
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Speaker 3: The kind of person who is not that comfortable around

391
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Speaker 3: guns but sees this as a safer option, might be

392
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Speaker 3: something I would bring in my house. But they said, look,

393
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,320
Speaker 3: you're you're not going to go do classes, You're not

394
00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,360
Speaker 3: going to go do training. You just become this huge problem.

395
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,199
Speaker 3: We end up just putting more guns into the supply overall,

396
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,880
Speaker 3: and now we have a class of people who are

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Speaker 3: not doing the work that's needed to really operate a

398
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Speaker 3: firearm safely, and now they have guns.

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Speaker 1: And what is the argument from gun advocates again smart

400
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,480
Speaker 1: gun technology, except where they don't want to be told

401
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 1: what they can buy and not buy.

402
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,120
Speaker 3: That's probably reason number one is we see where this

403
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 3: is heading, You're just going to start putting more and

404
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,119
Speaker 3: more controls on what we can do. Then it quickly

405
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,679
Speaker 3: because we can't really trust these guns. I'm not going

406
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,359
Speaker 3: to trust my life to some computer gadget that I

407
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,360
Speaker 3: don't know if it's going to work or not, and

408
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Speaker 3: so that's where the argument begins. Some of the more

409
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 3: nuanced arguments would be around does this even make sense?

410
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,479
Speaker 3: You know, if if somebody is the type of person

411
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,959
Speaker 3: that has a loaded weapon in their house that their

412
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,000
Speaker 3: child might find, is that the same person who's going

413
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,439
Speaker 3: to go out and buy a smart gun that, at

414
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 3: least for now, is more expensive than a regular gun.

415
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 3: People do concede that this could help with the prevention

416
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 3: of suicides by putting this extra hurdle, and the numbers

417
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,000
Speaker 3: there are quite high on the number of suicides that

418
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 3: happened per year, although the you know, the gun rights

419
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 3: advocates say this even there be a relatively small percentage.

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Speaker 1: I want to note here that Michael Bloomberg, who's the

421
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 1: founder and majority owner of Bloomberg LP, the parent company

422
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,959
Speaker 1: of Bloomberg News, also founded every Town for Gun Safety,

423
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,160
Speaker 1: which advocates for gun safety measures. How are they actually

424
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 1: marketing this gun.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting because biofire and Kai Kai has been at

426
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,879
Speaker 3: this so long and he's seen these past mistakes. So he,

427
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:32,120
Speaker 3: for example, has lobbied against efforts to mandate smart guns.

428
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Speaker 3: He does not want the company to be seen as

429
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:37,439
Speaker 3: this enemy of gun rights.

430
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Speaker 2: One of the really key tenants to the way that

431
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 2: I've approached this, which I think is it's pretty critical

432
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Speaker 2: the success that we've seen so far is we're looking

433
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,439
Speaker 2: to offer a choice, right We're looking to offer a

434
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 2: choice that doesn't exist in the market right now, and

435
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 2: we think there's gonna be a whole lot of people

436
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 2: that are going to choose to purchase our product. And

437
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,639
Speaker 2: that's awesome, right Like, we're looking to build sucessful business.

438
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 2: But at the same time, if people don't feel like

439
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,400
Speaker 2: our are just a fit for their use case, their environment,

440
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 2: their experience, their situation, that's correct, right Like, there's lots

441
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 2: and lots of other competitive pducts and the market traditional firearms,

442
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 2: and they're welcome to purchase any of those obviously, or

443
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 2: not purchase environment at all.

444
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 3: And the company is also not going after police forces

445
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,440
Speaker 3: and the military first, which is where I thought it

446
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 3: would head, but it is actually pitching their handgun. It

447
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 3: really people like me first and foremost, somebody who would

448
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,960
Speaker 3: consider having a weapon in their house to protect their

449
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 3: family and wants the safest possible option of that. There

450
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 3: are many people who would argue consumers only will be

451
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 3: sold on this if they see police forces use it first.

452
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 3: So it's an interesting strategy.

453
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,360
Speaker 1: When we come back. If smart guns like this one

454
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 1: are shown to work, will the government start requiring makers

455
00:21:49,320 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 1: to adopt this technology. He's been very careful and not

456
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 1: to antagonize gun advocates. Did you ask him where he

457
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,880
Speaker 1: comes down on things like federal background checks and limiting

458
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 1: sales of guns on the internet and gun shows, which

459
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 1: are real points of conflict between gun advocates and gun

460
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 1: control advocates.

461
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 3: He tends to take the middle ground on all these

462
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 3: things of never saying something that's really going to upset

463
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 3: the NRA too much, but also trying to you know,

464
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 3: his mission is safety. The whole origin story of this

465
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 3: company is to try and save lives, and so is

466
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 3: very polished. I found it interesting he said he fired

467
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 3: guns a little bit as a kid growing up in Colorado,

468
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 3: mostly I think hunting, well, mix of hunting and going

469
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 3: to the shooting range.

470
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 4: But since then he has.

471
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 3: Quite a number of guns now and has become quite

472
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 3: an enthusiast on his own.

473
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: On the other side, have gun control advocates embraced his

474
00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 1: smart gun technology.

475
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, gun control advocates historically have embraced smart

476
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 3: gun technology. I think biofire has been a little secretive

477
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 3: about this particular weapon that's just going on sale, and

478
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 3: so we don't have a lot of public reaction to

479
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 3: it yet. I think that's going to hit as our

480
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 3: story goes out and people discover this weapon for the

481
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 3: first time. There's been a number of researchers, both at

482
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 3: universities and the government who have been studying this issue

483
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 3: for about thirty years and produced data saying why they

484
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 3: think smart guns will work. It was unsatisfying. Part of

485
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 3: this story is that we just have no idea because

486
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 3: you've never had this product out in the world to

487
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 3: see what actually happens. And so I have to confess

488
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 3: I went over a ton of the data. You know,

489
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 3: it felt like a little flimsy to me, just because

490
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 3: it's hypothetical.

491
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: So if someone wants to buy one of these things,

492
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: they didn't really exist yet, but they're about two how

493
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: do you go about buying one?

494
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 4: Right? You could?

495
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 3: You go to uh to biofires website and right now

496
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 3: you would place a pre order. I think it's roughly

497
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 3: around two hundred dollars just to get in the line

498
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 3: to place your order, and then you're going to have

499
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 3: to pay about thirteen hundred dollars more.

500
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 4: So it's around fifteen hundred dollars for this gun.

501
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 3: And the company is saying they want to see how

502
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 3: many pre orders come in the first people who order it.

503
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 3: They expect to deliver the weapon early next year, they're saying.

504
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 3: And I asked them if you could buy this in

505
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 3: all fifty states. They did not have a great answer

506
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 3: for me. And so there are some restrictions in some

507
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 3: states around buying newly developed weapons. And it's going to

508
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 3: be in the United States only for a bit, and

509
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 3: people have to check what's going on where they live.

510
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: Are they prepared to manufacture this at scale or is

511
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: this going to be kind of a boutique item.

512
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 3: I went to their headquarters, which is ostensibly where they're

513
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 3: making them by hand right now, and they are going

514
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 3: to set up an assembly factory, which they have not

515
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 3: set up yet, And so to me, this is a

516
00:24:58,960 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 3: huge question.

517
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 4: This is always a major test.

518
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 3: When you go from a something that's beyond a prototype,

519
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 3: but it's this early model technology object to making lots

520
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 3: of them tends to be quite hard. I mean, again,

521
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 3: go back to Tesla. They suffered through years and years

522
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 3: and years of struggling to just make their car, even

523
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 3: after they had it dialed in. So I think that's

524
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 3: the huge question. I really got the sense that they

525
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 3: are waiting to see what happens when they turn this

526
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,959
Speaker 3: ordering website on and how much reaction there is to

527
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 3: try and gauge what they have to prepare for.

528
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: Have they gone the Silicon valor route and trying to

529
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: get a lot of seed money the way startups do.

530
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 3: They've raised about thirty million dollars in total, which is

531
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 3: a mix of venture capital and private investment. There's been

532
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 3: people who have been along side Kai for most of

533
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 3: this ride who have put money in. The most prominent

534
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 3: backer is still Peterteel via his venture capital fund Founder's Fund,

535
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 3: which is the major backer of the company. Thirty million

536
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: dollars for a manufacturing company is not a lot, and

537
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 3: so these pre sales I think are going to have

538
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 3: to do some work.

539
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: When you look ahead at this technology and the idea

540
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,479
Speaker 1: of these smart guns, where do you see it going

541
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 1: If this gun is primarily intended or marketed to prevent accidents.

542
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 1: A lot of accidents happen with hunting rifles, with modern

543
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,479
Speaker 1: sporting rifles. Some people call them, other people call them

544
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 1: assault style rifles. Can we expect this technology to start

545
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,959
Speaker 1: popping up on long guns.

546
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 3: There are efforts to do that, and some companies have

547
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 3: created prototypes, have gotten weapons like that in the hands

548
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 3: of the military. It's the same sort of story I

549
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 3: poked around all their websites.

550
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 4: It says, we have.

551
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 3: This gun, we just don't have enough demand to manufacture

552
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 3: a lot of them, but we could do it if

553
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 3: you wanted it.

554
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 4: I have to say, you know, I went into this

555
00:26:59,160 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 4: so skeptical.

556
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 3: Well, things have not gone well in the smart gun

557
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 3: world for the last twenty twenty five years, and I

558
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 3: have to say I mean, at least just as a

559
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 3: gun and as an object, it was impressive. The more

560
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: I used it, the more time I spent seeing how

561
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 3: it worked. It just it feels inevitable. Why would you

562
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 3: not use something like this if it works well and exists?

563
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,479
Speaker 1: Ashley Vance, thanks for coming on the show. Thank you,

564
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to us Here at the Big Take.

565
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more

566
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts or

567
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you.

568
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg

569
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is

570
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: Vicky berg Alina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Rebecca

571
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: Shassan is our producer. Our associate producer is Sam Gobauer.

572
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: Phil de Garcia is our engineer. Our original music was

573
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: composed by Leo Sidrin. I'm West Casova. We'll be back

574
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: tomorrow with another Big Take