1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: Following his daring escape from Japan worthy of a Hollywood 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: movie script, Carlos Gone slam the Japanese judicial system after 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: enduring months in solitary confinement, saying he made the decision 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: to escape because he believed he could not get a 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: fair trial after what Japanese prosecutors told him to just 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: confess to be older and don't confess. We're gonna go 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: after you. We're gonna go after your family, and we're 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: gonna stoll there many things. Go now lives in his 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: native Lebanon, out of the reach of Japanese prosecutors, but 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: in a strange role reversal, it's the people who engineered 12 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: goings escape from Japan who are now caught in the 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: Japanese legal system. Former Green Beret Michael Taylor and his 14 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: son Peter lost their extradition fight and were flown back 15 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: to Japan to face trial. Joining me is David Yaffee, 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: Elleniate Bloomberg Legal reporter David tell Us about Michael Taylor. So, 17 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: Michael Taylor is a former Army Green Beret who served 18 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: in Lebanon in the nineteen eighties and then when he 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: returned to the US became a security contractor um like 20 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: a lot of former military people do. And as a 21 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: contractor he would take all sorts of assignments throughout the nineties. 22 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: He would participate in government staying operations, he would provide 23 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: security services for institutions like the Port Authority, UM. You know, 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: he would travel the world working for various companies on 25 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: you know, assisting them with security tasks. He was also 26 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: somebody who we've known for his ability to extricate people 27 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: from tricky situations. He was a kind of extraction expert. 28 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: So the you know, the mothers of kidnapped children would 29 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: would hire him to go will cover their abductive children, 30 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: you know, often from kind of dangerous situations in countries 31 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: in the Middle East. He would sometimes get government referral 32 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: to do that sort of work for for for regular mothers, 33 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: and so over time he kind of developed that reputation. 34 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: But his career took a turn for the worst in 35 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: around two thousand twelve when he was indicted for his 36 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: role in the Defense Department did rating scandal um and 37 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: sent the prison in Utah after after pleading guilty and 38 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: his security company basically collapsed after that. Has he ever 39 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: denied planning and executing Carlos Gones escape from Japan? No, 40 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: there's no question at all that he was the man 41 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: who orchestrated Carlos Gowns escape. Um. There's reams of video 42 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: footage of the Japanese government included in its extradition request 43 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: for Taylor that shows him meeting with going you know, 44 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: shows him wheeling around the box in which Gohen was 45 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: hidden when he was smuggled onto a plane that whisked 46 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: him out as Japan. UM and then Taylor himself before 47 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: he was arrested in the US at May gave an 48 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: extensive interview to Vanity Fair and he not only admitted 49 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: that he was involved in the escape, but explained in 50 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: great detail how he had planned and executed the whole operation. 51 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: For those who don't know, tell us a little bit 52 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: about the escape plan. How long did it take them 53 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: to plan it and what did they do? So? This 54 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: was a month long planning process that involved dozens of 55 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: people in various countries around Asia scoping out airports, shipping ports, 56 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: various kind of entry and exit points in the countries 57 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: around Japan that might present opportunities for smuggling Stone to 58 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: to freedom. Taylor orchestrated the operation. You know, many of 59 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: the people who were working for him, had had known 60 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: him in the past, had participated in his kind of 61 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,279 Speaker 1: previous projects, and many of them didn't even know precisely 62 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: what the goal of the planning process was. They actually 63 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: assumed that they were they were scouting out an escape 64 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: route for kidnapped filed since that's the sort of work 65 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: that Taylor had done in the past. UM. But after 66 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: all that preparation, Taylor settled on a pretty straightforward plan, 67 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: which was that he would meet Carlos Gone at a 68 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: hotel in Tokyo, Um they would take a train to 69 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: another hotel in Osaka, different city in Japan, and put 70 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: him inside of a black crate designed for audio equipment 71 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: with air holes drilled inside UM and then smuggle that 72 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: create onto a private charter jet that would fly going 73 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: out of Japan. And and Taylor executed that plan basically 74 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: to perfection UM and succeeded in getting going out of 75 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: the country. They chosen this particular airport, in this particular 76 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: charter jet because they knew that large items wouldn't go 77 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: through X ray at security, which meant that you know, 78 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: going present inside the box wouldn't be detected. And the 79 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: whole and the whole process played out very, very smoothly. 80 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: The plane took going from Japan to Turkey, and then 81 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: he witched flights and took a plane to Lebanon, where 82 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: his family and he's sort of a national hero. And 83 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: it's pretty amazing because Gone was under constant, heavy surveillance 84 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: by Japanese authorities, wasn't he That's true, it was a 85 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: major security failing by the Japanese government. But at the 86 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: same time that this wasn't a prison break. Going was 87 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: out on bail and he was allowed to move freely 88 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: throughout the country. There were no restrictions on his movement, 89 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: and he'd often, you know, have lunch or dinner at 90 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: one of the hotels where he met. Michael Taylor um 91 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: that the bullet train that he took from from Tokyo 92 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: to Osaka was one that he'd taken before with his daughter, 93 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 1: and so none of his movements the day of the 94 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: escape leading up to when he climbed inside that box 95 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: was necessarily a cause for alarm the Japanese security establishment. 96 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: Do we know how much about how much this escape 97 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: cost and how much Taylor was paid. It's never been 98 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: clear exactly how much the gig cost, and if you 99 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: talked to sort of veteran security compultants will tell you 100 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: must have been ten fifteen million. Prosecutors in the US 101 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: showed that about one point five million dollars transferred to 102 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: the Taylor family by Gone, but the family has always 103 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: insisted that that was to cover the expenses associated with 104 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: Planet Escaped, and that Taylor himself was actually never paid 105 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: for the work that he did. Um, that's something that 106 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: he told Danity Fair and that he's sort of stuck 107 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: to throughout the process that he was never actually paid. 108 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: So now Taylor has a home in Lebanon, and he 109 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: ends up in Lebanon where he could be free from extradition. Yeah, 110 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: Lebanon has has no extradition treaty with Japan. And so 111 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: if he had remained in Lebanon, where he had met 112 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: his wife in the nineteen eighties, and he had family 113 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: where a couple of his sons are based, he would 114 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: have been you know, he would have been free. He 115 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: was safe in in Bay routs from the grass. But 116 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: the Japanese authority is just as justice gone has been. 117 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: He has said that he didn't know that what he 118 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: was doing was a crime in Japan, and yes, Taylor's 119 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: argument has always been he sought legal advice before he 120 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: ever took on the build job, and that his lawyers 121 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: told him that technically, bail jumping is not a crime 122 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: in Japan, and therefore helping somebody who's free on theil 123 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: sneak out of the country is not a crime in Japan. 124 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: You know, there's the average person on the street. That 125 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: might sound ludicrous, you know, how could it not be 126 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: illegal to sneak out of the country that way? Um, 127 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: And certainly in the US there are laws preventing that. 128 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: But it is true that the Japanese penal code does 129 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: not have an explicit law banning bail jumping, and that 130 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: basically became Taylor's legal defense once he was arrested. So 131 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: if that's the case for breaking what law they pursuing him. 132 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: So the Japanese have had cited a law known as 133 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: Article one oh three, which prohibits harboring a criminal, and 134 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: they've basically argued that because Going had been charged with 135 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: the crime and Taylor harbored him, took him, took him 136 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: in and stuck him out of the country. At Taylor's 137 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: actions competitute of violation of that section of their their 138 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: penal code, even if they don't have an explicit provision 139 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: banning bail jumping. Did any of the judges in the 140 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: United States look at that argument, examine that argument? Yeah, 141 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: So this was the main topic of the extradition hearing 142 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: in in Boston that Paya ultimately lost. You know, his 143 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,119 Speaker 1: lawyers cited legal experts from Japan and you know case 144 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: law in Japan to say, this particular provision of the 145 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: Japanese penal Code has never been applied in this specific 146 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: way to penalize this kind of behavior. I thought what 147 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: he was doing was legal, and therefore he shouldn't be extradited. Ultimately, though, 148 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: the magistrate judge in Boston concluded that it was not 149 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: the place of a US court to kind of parish 150 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: the nuances of the Japanese penal Code, that that was 151 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: the task best left to the Japanese justice system, and 152 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: that therefore this argument wasn't good enough to block the 153 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: Japanese extradition request. So after his rest, Taylor pursued a 154 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: two pronged approach to getting out from under extradition to 155 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: Japan involving law firms and lobbying firms. We described the 156 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: extent of that. Yeah, So one important thing to understand 157 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: about extradition is it's not a purely legal process. For 158 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: someone to be extradited. A judge has to rule that 159 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: they are extraditable, that the extraditional request from the country 160 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: that wants them meets the standards of the treaty with 161 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: the US. But that's only one part of the process. 162 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: It's also a political decision that the Secretary of State makes, 163 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: you know, if this person is eligible, should I send 164 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: them over? And so the tailors have fought the extradition 165 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: requests onto fronts. They waged this legal battle in Boston 166 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: arguing that Michael Taylor had never actually broken the law, 167 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: and they lobbied decision makers in Washington to try to 168 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: persuade them to drop the extradition request, and that became 169 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: a pretty uh intensive, sort of influenced campaign in the capital. 170 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: Taylor paid more than three thousand dollars over several months 171 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: to lobbyists at the firm Candle Gates, who spoke with 172 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: lawmakers in Congress and officials at the White House State 173 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: Department at one point in December, a lobbyists basically buttonholed 174 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: Mark Meadows at a White House event at the White 175 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: House Chief of Staff under Trump, and you know, and 176 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: said you have to look at this case, you have 177 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: to do something about it. Taylor also went on Maria 178 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: bartar Romo's Fox Business show UM to talk about his case, 179 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: and Barbaromo later told taylor lawyers that she would bring 180 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: the case up with the President and see if he 181 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: would intervene to prevent the extradition from happening. So it 182 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: was really a full court press and kind of exactly 183 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: the sort of campaign that so many people in the 184 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: Trump era wage to try to avoid legal trouble, to 185 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: kind of manipulate the levers of power to get a 186 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: criminal threat removed. He even had one of Trump's former 187 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: lawyers sign a letter. Did the play ever get to 188 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: Trump himself? We don't know for sure. We know that 189 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: Maria bardar Romo said that she would talk with Trump, 190 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: and know that a lobbyist with Taylor spoke directly with 191 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: Trump's chiefs staff Mark Meadows, but it's not clear whether 192 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,839 Speaker 1: Trump ever directly discussed the case with anybody, though I 193 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: think it's likely that he was aware of what was 194 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: going on, given the number of people in his orbit 195 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: who were being kind of intensively lobbied by the tailors, 196 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: and the State Department would not sit down with Taylor's 197 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: lawyers to discuss anything. Yeah, I mean, really, this whole 198 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: lobbying campaign was a failure. The tailors are basically stonewalled 199 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: at at every stage of the process. At one point, 200 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: the State Department official told their lawyers that it was 201 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: department policy not to sit down and meet with lawyers 202 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: and extradition cases, and so there was never really any 203 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: opportunity for kind of extensive negotiations about how the case 204 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: would be treated. I mean, at one point, remember that 205 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: Michael Taylor's son, Peter Taylor, was also arrested as part 206 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: of this. At one point, the strategy became, let's convince 207 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: the State Department to send over Michael Taylor, but to 208 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: keep Peter Taylor in the US because he wasn't as 209 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: involved in the case. You know. There was also an 210 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: effort to try to get the State Department to ensure 211 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: that Japan count the time that the tailors have served 212 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: in American jail toward any sentence that they receive in Japan. 213 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: But the tailor has never really had the opportunity to 214 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: kind of hash out this with the issues with the 215 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: State Department because the government wasn't interested in sitting down 216 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: with them and negotiate. Considering the number of Trump pardons 217 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: and even pardons of people in the military, it does 218 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: seem surprising that they weren't able to get any help 219 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: at all. Yeah, on some level, it is surprising, especially 220 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: the number of stories that we've seen about people who 221 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: successfully were able to evade legal trouble as a result 222 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 1: of that sort of intensive lobbying. But also an extradition 223 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: is different from a parting case. It involves matters of 224 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: foreign policy that can be really sensitive. It's worth remembering 225 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: that as this case was playing out, the US was 226 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: trying to bolster its its alliance with Japan to show 227 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: a united front against China in a each other. That 228 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 1: was an important strategic priority for the State Department, and 229 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: I think it's fair to assume that the Trump administration 230 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: was reluctant to do anything that would jeopardize that relationship 231 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: with Japan, as projecting an extradition requests certainly would have conditions. 232 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: In Japanese prisons are sometimes brutal, and they even tried 233 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: to make an argument about the prison conditions and exposure 234 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: to COVID nineteen. After the tailors failed to persuade a 235 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: judge that what they've done in Japan wasn't actually a crime, 236 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: they turned to a different argument, which is that it 237 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: would be inhumane and violate certain anti torture conventions that 238 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: the US is part of the tailors to be extradited 239 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: to Japan um and they made an argument about conditions 240 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: in Japanese jails, basically saying that this amounted to torture. 241 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: They pointed out that the lights are on seven, difficult 242 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: to sleep, that of COVID nineteen was proliferating and jet 243 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: these prisons, and that it would be dangerous, especially for 244 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: somebody like Michael Taylor sixty and who recently had long operation. 245 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: They also pointed out that certain due process rights that 246 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: are afforded to criminal defendants the US are not available 247 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: in Japan. For instance, you can be interrogated for lengthy 248 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: periods without a lawyer in the Japanese criminal justice system. 249 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: There's also an extremely high conviction rate. It's above so 250 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: a lot of critics for the Japanese justice systems say, 251 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: you know, this is hostage justice. This is unfair to 252 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: criminal defendants. And that's really one of the points that 253 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: Goon made repeatedly in the period before he escaped from Japan, 254 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: and then afterwards justifies to escape. He claims that he 255 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: was mistreated and that he couldn't get a fair trial 256 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: in Japan and that therefore he was justified in his 257 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: decision to simply leave. And so the tailors are going 258 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: to face trial in a country where prosecutors virtually never lose. Yes, 259 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: they are currently being held in the same detention center 260 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: that Gone was once in prison. The charge of eating, 261 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: going to escape, harboring a criminal could lead to a 262 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: three year sentence, and at some point we're expected to 263 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: see them face trial. And I think there's a lot 264 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: of political pressure on the Japanese government to take down 265 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: somebody who was involved in the Going case because of 266 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: the embarrassment of seeing him flee, and the tailors are 267 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: on the receiving end of that. Lots of other people 268 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: were involved in the escape, and the tailors are the 269 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: only ones that have been singled out. So the Japanese 270 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: government actually issued an arrest weren't for one other person 271 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: who was involved in escape. And a man named George 272 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: Zayak who's a former Lebanese soldier and a close friend 273 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: and associate of Michael Taylor. Zaiak was intimately involved in 274 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: the escape planning with Taylor the day it was executed 275 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: and helped smuggle going onto the plane. He was really 276 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: kind of Taylor's like number two, his lieutenant in the 277 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: execution of the escape. But unlike Taylor, Zaiak is simply 278 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: laid low in Lebanon and decided not to leave the country. 279 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: If he did leave, he would probably get arrested, and 280 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: so he decided to stay in his home and kind 281 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: of avoid the Japanese authority that way. So do we 282 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: know when the Tailors will be tried? We don't know. 283 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: It can take a long time in Japans and another 284 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: of doings complaints, the legal process track on and on 285 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: and on without any sort of resolution. And so what 286 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: exactly the timeline will look like, It's did not totally clear. 287 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for being on the Bloomberg Law Show, David. That's 288 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Legal reporter David Yaffe Bellini. Judges with predominantly experience 289 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: in private practice and as federal prosecutors make up more 290 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: than seventy of the appellate bench, while just one percent 291 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: have spent the majority of their careers as public defenders 292 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: or within a legal aid setting, according to a Center 293 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: for American Progress study, and progressive activists want to change that. 294 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: They want President Joe Biden to appoint more judges who 295 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: represented criminal defendants as well as workers, consumers, and civil 296 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: rights plaintiffs, in addition to more women and minorities joining 297 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: me as Madison Alder Bloomberg Law Report. First of all, 298 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 1: how did the makeup of the federal bench change under 299 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: former President Trump? So? Trump was able to make a 300 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: really big impact on the federal bench. He appointed more 301 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: than two hundred and thirty federal judicial appointments to the 302 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: district and appeals courts. Um and and that really, you know, 303 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: has a huge impact on on the amount of people 304 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: of that he has tied to that are there hearing cases. 305 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: So m about a force of the federal judiciary are 306 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: Trump's own appointees. Um. So, Trump was able to leave 307 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: a pretty big mark on the side of judiciary. And 308 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: um So when Joe Biden came in, uh, he he 309 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: had a very low number of vacancies that were available 310 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: to him. So that's kind of the landscape that Joe 311 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: Biden is dealing with right now. A number of federal 312 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 1: judges have announced stable um take senior status or retire 313 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: in recent weeks, which is significantly boosted the amount of 314 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 1: it can sees that Biden has available to him. UM. 315 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: But you know it is still uh in the lower 316 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: in the lower range of vacancies. And as far as 317 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: the Trump nominees, as I recall, there were very few 318 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: women or minorities included in the nominations, so Trump had 319 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: a very low number of women and minorities UM. Significantly 320 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: on the course of the heel, there were no black 321 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: Circuit Court appointees, which is the first time since Richard 322 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: Nixon that that's happened. And there was also only one 323 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: Latina appointee. UM. So you know, there there were a 324 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: few areas where Trump's judicial pointees weren't as racially diverse 325 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: as past presidents have been. UM. That's something that that 326 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: Joe Biden has highlighted to something that he would like 327 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: to prioritize. UM. You know, the Biden administration is looking 328 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: to a diversity's events, not just in terms of racial 329 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: and ethnic and gender diversity, but they've also indicated that 330 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: they're interested in this experiential diversity category, to which is 331 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: something that progressives have been pushing for, and that would 332 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: be adding more people with stal rights experience, people who 333 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: were public defenders, and people who just aren't really represented 334 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: on the bench in terms of experienceial diversity right now 335 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: tell us about what progressive organizations are drawing up lists 336 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: and who's on the list. So we took a look 337 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: at two different lists from progressive groups, People's Parity Projects 338 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: which is as a student group, and Demand Justice. UM. 339 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 1: Both of those lists are they're a little bit different. 340 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: So Demand Justice list is actually a Supreme Court list 341 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: that I spote to Chris Kang, who is the co 342 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: founder of Demand Justice, and he told me that it 343 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: is a pretty good representation of the type of people 344 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: that they would like to see on the lower courts 345 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: as well. People Parity Projects lists, on the other hand, 346 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: is specifically aimed at the heels courts. Together, these lists 347 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 1: represent seventy six judges and many of them are women, minorities, 348 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: people who have had public defender experienced, people who have 349 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: worked for civil rights organizations. UM. The n w ACP 350 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: Legal Defense and Education Fund is a really common theme 351 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: that we saw on a lot of the background people 352 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: on macelists. UM, so is the A C l U UM. 353 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 1: So you know they're kind of representing this different UM. 354 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: There's different backgrounds of of of nominees when compared with 355 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: UM President Trump's appointees, but also compared with the past presidents. 356 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: You know, both of these progressive groups say the past 357 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: presidents on both sides of the aisle haven't prioritized experiential 358 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: diversity when it comes to their judicial picks. And that's 359 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: something now but to see changed. Do you see a 360 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: lot of former federal prosecutors on the bench, but you 361 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: don't see as many people who are former defense attorneys? 362 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: Why do they think that it's important to have diverse backgrounds? 363 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: So there was a study there was a reported by 364 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: Demand Justice recently by UM Joanna Shepherd who is a 365 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 1: professor at Emory University, that found that these judges who 366 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: have federal prosecutor backgrounds or corporate law backgrounds are less 367 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: likely to rule in favor of workers. UM. That kind 368 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: of highlights this concern for for people who are UM 369 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 1: supporting more experiential diversity on the bench. UM. You know, 370 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: they fear that these judges might uh you know, have 371 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: have a bias. Um you may be against workers who 372 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: are bringing cases against corporations, um, or you know that 373 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: they might not be able to look past that part 374 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: of their experience. Something I heard a common theme, um, 375 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 1: you know from for many of the people I've talked to. Though, 376 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: is not to say that uh federal prosecutor or form 377 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 1: a photo prosecutor or corporate lawyer wouldn't be able to 378 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: look past that bias and inside with a worker. It's 379 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: not to say that they can't do that, um you know, 380 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: obviously applying the law fairly, but that they might have 381 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: this this unconscious sias. UM. So this study is with 382 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: a recent example, um that progressives are are pointing to 383 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: that that shows that that this might be the case. 384 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: So explain what the blue slip process is and what 385 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: it means that Senate Democrats are going to retain that 386 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: for district court nominees. So Richard Ran, the chairman of 387 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: the SUNA Judiciary Committee, has signaled that, UM, they're going 388 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: to keep the blue slip around for district court picks 389 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: for now. UM, they are going to continue the practice 390 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: that was set during the Trump administration by chairman Grassley 391 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: and Graham of of not honoring the blue slip for 392 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: appealed court nominees UM And basically what this means is 393 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: that senators won't be able to have sort of a 394 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: sen me zet over a pick in their states for 395 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: appealed court seats. They will have that semiz to power 396 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: in their state for District Cort peck. What that means 397 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: is that the White House is going to have to 398 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: work with Republican senators in these states to work on 399 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,719 Speaker 1: on picks and and get kind of a consensus around 400 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: them before they're nominated. Chairman Durbin has warned that this 401 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: isn't a hard and fast rule and that there could 402 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: be an opportunity for UM. Democrats have changed their minds 403 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: on this down the line, but that is the rule 404 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: for now that Republicans will still have their blue slips 405 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: honored UM, which indicates their support for a nominee, will 406 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: still have their blue slips honored for District Cort PIX. 407 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 1: That may cause problems with getting the layers of diversity 408 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: that these progressive groups want, So that could that could 409 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: have a problem. UM. You know, it will mean that 410 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: someone with UM this experiential diversity uh, you know, if 411 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: they were suggested by the White House and these negotiations 412 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: or however this this nominee comes up, this this potential 413 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: nominee comes up, that the Republican Senator and the White 414 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,239 Speaker 1: House would have to agree on that person. That's not 415 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: to say that they couldn't agree, but it could be 416 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: a potential obstacle if their White House is pushing for 417 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: people with more progressive leaning backgrounds. Another obstacle that could 418 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: come up is the A B A ratings, So the 419 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: ratings by the American Bar Association. The American Bar Association 420 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: has some minimum requirements for for people who are judicial nominees, 421 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: and one of those is having at least twelve years 422 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: of experience as a practicing lawyer. And you know that 423 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: has tripped up the tripped up some of Trump's nominees. Um, 424 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: and if you're pushing for people who are younger, uh 425 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: as as you know these progressive groups are, that is 426 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: something that you might run into as an obstacle. And 427 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 1: how is Biden going to the American Bar Association ratings? 428 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: So the Biden administration isn't going to allow the American 429 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: Bar Association to have an exance role in this process 430 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: like the Obama administration did. Um, they're not going to 431 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: be able to look at these candidates and pre screen 432 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: them before they're nominated. Um. They'll have the same role 433 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: in the process that they did during the Trump administration, 434 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: which was that they would get them after they were nominated. 435 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 1: So they still have a role in this process. A 436 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: BA ratings are still something that senators will point to 437 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,479 Speaker 1: in confirmation hearings, but they won't be able to have 438 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: that advanced screening that might even prevent someone from being 439 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: nominated in the first place. Um. This is something that 440 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: was hailed by progressives as to step in the right direction. Um. 441 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: They said that the A B A could potentially prevent 442 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: a good nominee for being nominated in the first place. 443 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: So this is something that is the Biden administration again 444 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: moving potentially in this more progressive direction with judicial non nations. 445 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: Tell us how this desire for work experienced diversity is 446 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: causing something of a problem in Colorado. So in Colorado, 447 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: the two senators there recommended a pick for an open 448 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: district court seat. It was a pick who they had 449 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: nominated during the Obama administration, and she wasn't able to 450 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: get through her name is Regina Rodriguez. She has had 451 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: experience as a corporate lawyer, and she is Latina. That 452 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: recommendation got pushed back from progressive groups because of this 453 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: corporate law ties. They're saying they don't want to see 454 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: people who have this experience as a corporate lawyer, and 455 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: that that's not what the Biden administration asked for. In 456 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: a letter to Democratic senators, White how countil Dayda remiss 457 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: US senators to look at experiential diversity and to look 458 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: at people who had been some public defenders and people 459 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: who had been involved in civil rights organizations. So progressive 460 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: groups are basically saying that this doesn't line up with 461 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: what Biden was asking for, and it doesn't line up 462 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: with what they're pushing for. I did get a little 463 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: bit push back on that in my reporting, and I 464 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: spoke to the President and General Counsel of Maldas the 465 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Funds, who said he 466 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: understands that there's a lot of grounds to make up 467 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: in terms of professional experience, but racial and ethnic diversity 468 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: remains really important. And if there's going to be corporate 469 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: lawyers on bench, and there will always be corporate lawyers 470 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: and several prosecutors. At least their ranks can include people 471 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: who have racial and ethnic diversities. And there are very 472 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 1: few Latinos on circuit courts. That's true on the DC Circuit, 473 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: for example, there has never been a Latino or Latina 474 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: judge and that's something that some of the signs. The 475 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: President General Counsels allus told me that he would like 476 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: to see changed and the organization would like to be 477 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: changed under the find administration. What about American Indian judges, 478 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: So that's another group that's really under a presented on 479 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: the federal courts. You know, there are currently two active 480 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: judges who are American Indians according to Federal Judicial Center data, 481 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: which um you know. I spoke to a professor and 482 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: director of Native Nations Law at the u c l 483 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,479 Speaker 1: A School of Law, Angela Riley, and she said that 484 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: that leads the deeping hole in American jurisprudence. Even if 485 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: someone were named to the bench who had corporate law 486 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: tighs or didn't, and they were American Indian, they would 487 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 1: bring an understanding of tribes and Indian country and issues 488 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 1: facing Indian country that isn't currently represented on the bench 489 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: and that still brings something. So you spoke to an 490 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: appellate court lawyer who was surprised to see her name 491 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: on one of the lists one I spoctation on. She 492 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: said that her experience in her background representing prisoners, taking 493 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: on reproductive rights cases, making her views publicly known on 494 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: a podcast, it wouldn't typically be the type of backgrounds 495 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: that you'd see in a judicial nominee. But she said, 496 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: the fact that she's being considered for for something like 497 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: this just shows how much the conversation has changed in 498 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: the last few years. Also, I thought it was interesting 499 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: what former judge Nancy Gartner told you about being on 500 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: at the bench. So Judge Nancy Gartner has actually very 501 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: similar experience to ash and On. You know, she represents 502 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: people in in criminal defense cases. She worked on abortion 503 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: and sex discrimination cases, and she actually did become a 504 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: federal judge, and she said that those experiences gave her 505 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: a different perspective during her seventeen years as a district 506 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: court judge in Boston. You know, she said that she 507 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: added the experience of walking into the courtroom with her 508 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: client and walking out of the courtroom with with him 509 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: in chains, and you know, that made her ask questions 510 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: that it may be a judge without those experiences might 511 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: not have asked in court. Thanks Madison. That's Madison Alder, 512 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law Reporter. And that's it for this edition of 513 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the 514 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: its legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can 515 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www dot 516 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com slash podcast slash Law. I'm Jude Grosso. 517 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us, and please tune into 518 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: The Bloomberg Law Show every week night at ten d m. 519 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: Easter right here on Bloomberg Radio