1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and this is part two of Murder. 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: She watched our two partner on women detectives on television. Yeah, 5 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: in our last episode, we gave you sort of a 6 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: rundown of the history of where these lady detective characters originated, 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: Thank you Victorians, and how second wave feminism sort of 8 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: ushered in this amazing era of women on television. Although 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: we've sort of had a long way to go to 10 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 1: go from somebody like uh Andie Dickinson's character on Police 11 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: Woman to Cagney and Lacy too, shows like Murder, she wrote, 12 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: and Prime Suspect. That's right. And speaking of Murder, she wrote, 13 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: We're going to kick things off by talking about the 14 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: importance of Jessica Fletcher, one of my most just personally 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: beloved TV characters crime solving or not on television. We 16 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: could talk about Cagney and Lacy forever, but we have 17 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: to move on and mention one of the women who 18 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: featured so prominently in our childhoods, which is Jessica Fletcher. 19 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: On Murder, she wrote, which aired from four to Yeah, 20 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: she sort of described as a Miss Marple figure we 21 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier in the podcast how her portrayal of Miss 22 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: Marple in nineteen eighty sort of seeded this idea for J. B. Fletcher. 23 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: But she's a Miss Marple who is maybe a little 24 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: more fierce. And also, though like Marple, relies on her 25 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: feminine grandmotherliness, she's Jimmy Fletcher gets. She can get riled 26 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: up sometimes, but for the most part, she's relatively soft spoken. 27 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: She buys a goes around Cabot Cove, she wears rad cardigans. 28 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: She's always clacking away on her typewriter. Now I'm just 29 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: listening all the things I love about Murder she wrote. Well, 30 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: I mean, she's an incredible character. Like here she is. 31 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: I think she was retired, I believe, and she starts 32 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: writing novels. It's just a whim like she's she writes 33 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: something and her grandson takes it away and sends it off, 34 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: and suddenly she's this world famous writer. She travels the globe, 35 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: solving crimes as she goes, and and just like this Marple. 36 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 1: I mean, you wouldn't look at Jessica Fletcher slash Angela 37 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: Landsberry and think like she's a detective. She's an investigator. 38 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: I gotta watch out for that one. She's she flies 39 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: under the radar. And it's significant too that she is 40 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: a widow. Her husband dives that like frees up more 41 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: time for this writing. And Slade Somner over at the 42 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: All wrote a pretty funny essay about watching going back 43 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: and watching all of murder. She wrote, and uh Slade wrote, 44 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: She's a quote feminist blueprint, strong confident icon, leading by 45 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: example by actions by deeds, not slogans or words or 46 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: academic blabber. She's not equal to men. She exceeds their 47 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: intellectual capacity. She out foxes them at every turn. And 48 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: that is true. It's usually the plot lines involve a 49 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: murder happening. There are so many murders. By the way, 50 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: don't ever go to Cabit Cooke, you will die. Um. 51 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: But a murder happens, and then of course it's the 52 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: male police chief, or if she's traveling abroad, it's the 53 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: male constable, and they don't know what to do. JB. 54 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: Fletch has to step in and be like guys, guys, guys. 55 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: J B. Flett I got this. Let me put on 56 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: my giant glasses. I wonder. I'm sure Jessica Fletcher T 57 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: shirts and other swag exist, but I wonder if there 58 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: is one that says just j B. Fletch and maybe 59 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: Angela Landsberry as a cartoon with wearing the glasses. We 60 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: need this to happen, as what I'm saying. Yes, if 61 00:03:55,880 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't, we're going to make it someone somehow. But 62 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: the cool thing too, that kind of blew my mind, 63 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: even though obviously she was an older woman when she 64 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: started this role. But considering how successful Murder she wrote 65 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: was and how long it was on the air she 66 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: started when she was fifty six and finally into the 67 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: show when she was seventy one, how often do we 68 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: see outside of say The Golden Girls or Betty White 69 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: on you know, Hot in Cleveland, which is about too 70 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: to end. How hotten do we see seventy one year 71 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: old women starring in their own shows? Yeah, you don't. 72 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: And that's why I think it was summer at the 73 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: all who was arguing that, hey, I mean, it's great 74 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: that you're giving Betty White all of this love and 75 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: these accolades and this like pop culture obsession. But I 76 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: was about to say Jessica Fletcher, but Angela Landsberry deserves 77 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: the same attention and affection because she was also such 78 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: a groundbreaker. Well, and she's still doing so much. She's 79 00:04:55,240 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: performing on stage and hopefully still solving crimes. And I 80 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: kind of like to think that that Angela Landsberry when 81 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: she is at home, does you know, pull up to 82 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: a typewriter and click clacks away. I like, I like 83 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: that image too. But one one female character, one investigative 84 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: lady that we have to talk about who doesn't fit 85 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: the Miss Marple rely on your grandmotherliness factor. That would 86 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 1: be Helen Mirren in the British show Prime Suspect, which 87 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: ran from two thousand and six, and the show was 88 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: actually produced by a woman, Sally Head and written by 89 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: a woman, Linda Laplant, in addition to starring Helen Mirren. Yeah, 90 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: and Mirren's character has to face misogynistic police kind of 91 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: per usual at this point. And also though she's not alone, 92 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: she has a lover, a man in her life who 93 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: is not so keen on how her life starts changing 94 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: once she heads her first murder investigation. So that's also 95 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: an is staying dynamic to bring into it as well 96 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: of how you know a lot of times it's the 97 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, frustrated wife or girlfriend feeling neglected at home 98 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: while the guy is out working all hours. But this 99 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: is the role reversal here. Yeah and so uh. And 100 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: in this Telegraph article we were reading about Lady Detectives 101 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: in general, but Prime Suspects specifically. They were talking about 102 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: how the show is very clear and depicting the struggle 103 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: that she she faces. It's not easy for her to 104 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: deal with this constant barrage of misogyny from within her 105 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: own department and also the problems at home, and so 106 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: she's often depicted just like chain smoking, or she's in 107 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: the hall, you know, having a heavy sigh, she's about 108 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: to enter a room full of male detectives, you know. 109 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: But but the audience does get to watch her become 110 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: eventually an accepted and respected figure in the department. And 111 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: probably due to the success of shows like Murder she 112 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: wrote and Prime Suspect, even though clearly they're very print 113 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: kinds of shows, but nonetheless female fronted and all about 114 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: you know, women solving crimes. The modern landscape of lady 115 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: detectives on TV is quite rich with all sorts of characters, 116 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: and I'm also there's lots to talk about in terms 117 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: of feminism as well. Um, in the summer of two 118 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: thousand three, for instance, women were regular members of investigating 119 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: teams on nine Network and cable TV series. Again, it's 120 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: just incredible how this particular genre on TV is so 121 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: women welcoming. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to be 122 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: the person who just sits here in the list shows. 123 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: But you've got shows like Castle. You have shows not 124 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: only like Lawn Order SVU, but C s I. There's 125 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: like fifty million C s I shows. Um, you could 126 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: list bones in with that, even though it's a little 127 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: more forensics, but still it's still it's investigating. It is 128 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: it's investigative women. And of course one of the most 129 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: well known American detective names is Olivia Benson of Lawn 130 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: Order s VU, not just Taylor Swift's cat Olivia Benson, 131 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: but the actual Olivia Benson, played by the wonderful Mariska 132 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: Haggerty and Emily Nuss bomb Over at The New Yorker 133 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: describes her as a zena with empathy. Yeah. Swu debuted 134 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: in and was a far cry from the original n 135 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: premiering Law and Order, which, like we mentioned earlier, starred 136 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: no women Dick Wolfe had to be kind of reminded 137 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: that yes, women also bill play a role in legal 138 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: professions in the United States. Um, but not everybody loves 139 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: s v U. And before we get into some of 140 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: the analysis from it, Honestly, Caroline, I have a hard 141 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: time watching SVU sometimes, you know, I my this is weird, idol. 142 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: But all a minute, my boyfriend and I will binge 143 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: watch SVU. We both had this moment of like when 144 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: we realize the other ones obsessed with it, so I 145 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: of it. And and for your average run of the 146 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: mill spew episode, I can watch a thousand of them, 147 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: but it real I feel like it. Recently, Uh, A 148 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: new season recently started and I don't I don't know 149 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: what the last season, how it ended. But when it 150 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: came back on, there was an episode that featured Olivia Benson, 151 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: the character like having been assaulted and held hostage and 152 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: raped and and all of this terrible stuff. And even 153 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: that I'm like, okay, I can I can watch this. 154 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: That's that's all right. But it wasn't until later in 155 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: the show when her attacker was just absolutely toying with 156 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: her in court actually actually made my boyfriend turned the 157 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: show off, I was like, this is this is too 158 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: much for me, this is making my heart race. Well. 159 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: I think that that incident in SVU of Olivia Benson 160 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: being attacked and assaulted was something that no Baum called 161 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: out in terms of a turning point of its watchability. 162 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: And it's because of its focused largely on and sexual 163 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: crimes rape violence against women that there are critics who 164 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: think that s VU portrays a kind of misogynistic feminism 165 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: because it does include in some episodes false claims of rape, 166 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: negative portrayals of feminine characteristics, um also having women's jealousy 167 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: of each other being motivations for crime rather than just 168 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: the lust for the crime itself. So they're definitely people 169 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: on both sides of the SVU fence. But nonetheless, Olivia 170 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: Benson is a character will get back to in the 171 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: second half of the podcast because despite all of the 172 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: kinds of crimes and perhaps the sometimes questionable ways that 173 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: they are portrayed on the show, she herself is also 174 00:10:54,320 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: fits in this broader female detective characterization of being both 175 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: strong and also having a backstory that plays into her 176 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: strength and also why we probably as viewers gravitate to 177 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: her and you know, at the risk of going on 178 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: and on for hours about amazing women on amazing detective shows. 179 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: We do have to mention before we break the fact 180 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: that the Brits are kicking, but with the number of 181 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: amazing lady detective characters that they have, people like the 182 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: fabulous Jillian Anderson who's starring in The Fall, which I 183 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: need to watch, but which I've also heard is incredibly 184 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: intense in terms of the sexual violence of portrays Um, 185 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: also Olivia Coleman and broad Church, Leslie Sharp and Saran 186 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: Jones and Scott and Bailey, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. There are 187 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 1: just a lot of rich, amazing, colorful lady detective characters 188 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: on television if you're willing to netflix them. Yeah, I've 189 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: also heard that Bletchley Circle is one to watch as well. 190 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: And it's not just in Britain. We've got to give 191 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: props to New Zealand for Top of the Lake, directed 192 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: by Jane Campion, which is significant and also starring the 193 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: fantastic Elizabeth Moss. That show is incredible And that's another 194 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: show which I think is a good example of what 195 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: christ and I will talk about after the break in 196 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: terms of using sexual violence as the crux of the show, 197 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: but also having a main female detective character who is 198 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: inspired and driven by her own past as a survivor 199 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: of assault. So we want to talk more about the 200 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: use of gender and femininity in this traditionally masculine role 201 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: of the detective, because there's some really fascinating ways that 202 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: this plays out on screen. Yeah, because these characters typically 203 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: have have never from from the Victorian novels that we 204 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: had that we talked about at the top of the podcast. 205 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: They've never just been detectives. They've always been women detectives, 206 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: or as we're calling them, lady detectives. And one thing 207 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: that those Victorian novels in particular really played up was 208 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: the issue of of things like feminine intuition, the fact 209 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: that they solved cases using that very feminine trade of empathy, 210 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: meaning that their sex, their femaleness was definitely part of 211 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: their lives, part of their profession, and worked in their favor. 212 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: And it's really not so different from the shows that 213 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: we see today. Yeah, And and that whole use of 214 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: a reliance on feminine intuition is one of the negative 215 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: critiques on shows like Law and Order SVU. But honestly, 216 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: and maybe because we did a podcast a while back 217 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: on women's intuition and kind of looking into the science 218 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: of it and where it came from. I don't see 219 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: it as a negative necessarily. No. I don't think that 220 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: women should be perceived as wise and capable only because 221 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: we have this sixth sense, possibly related to our menstrual 222 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: cycles or something like that. But I think it I 223 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: don't think there's anything wrong with it, because a lot 224 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: of intuition is just meaning that we're possibly paying attention to, 225 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: maybe emotional currents running through rooms and things that other 226 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: people might not pay attention to. I think I think 227 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: there's a very interesting multilayered argument to be made about that, 228 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: because on the one hand, like, Okay, they're using feminine intuition, 229 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: they're using these these natural quote unquote natural feminine attributes. 230 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: We derive it from the moon, Caroline, when the moon 231 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: is full and replenishes our intuition. That's right. But on 232 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: the other hand, I mean, is it better or worse 233 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: to have a female detective character who's playing off of 234 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: or or using so called natural traits, or is it 235 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: better to have a woman who is completely stripped of 236 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: feminine attributes and just shoved into a male character role. 237 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: I mean, you could argue either way that one is 238 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: better than the other. But I mean, let's not begrudge 239 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: a woman of being a woman or being womanly exactly. Um, 240 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: and this whole gendering, that question that you just raised of, 241 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, whether it's that versus sort of shoving a 242 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: woman into a masculine role. Kathleen Murray in her dissertation 243 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: for the University of Pittsburgh looked into this aspect of 244 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: gendering and whether they can just be detective shows or 245 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: whether they will always be lady detective shows. Yeah, she 246 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: writes basically that the investigating woman character interrupts the smooth 247 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: running of the detective film genre because they disrupt, They 248 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: fundamentally disrupt. She says, this narrative upon which genre films depend. 249 00:15:54,720 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: So basically she's arguing that lady detective are both of 250 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: the detective film genre and outside of it, because so 251 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: many detective films or shows or whatever are also pulling 252 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: in these very quote unquote again like feminine attributes, relying 253 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: on uh, female intuition, but also sometimes when you pair 254 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: a woman detective with a male detective, there has to 255 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: be almost like it's ordained that like there has to be, uh, 256 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: this sexual tension between the two, and so that sort 257 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: of inevitably and unavoidably leads to a slightly different bent 258 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: on a traditional genre. Yeah. And this is something too 259 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: that Linda Mazuski talks about in Hard Boiled and High 260 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: Healed Um, which was a resource that we relied a 261 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: lot on. She talks about how it can be shocking 262 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: and not to mention sexual when the detective genre switches 263 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: gender in that way. Yeah, and then when it comes 264 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: to shows like The Closer, Saving Grace and Damages, Oh 265 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: my god, do not get my mother started on The Closer. 266 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: She's obsessed with it. She thinks it's so great. But 267 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not just saying that to just to 268 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: say it. But the whole issue with The Closer, with 269 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: the character of Brenda, is that she's a hard hitting, 270 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: super smart, super tough woman who's also super feminine and southern, y'all. 271 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: She's like super proper, and so somebody like my mother 272 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: just like salivates over that. She loves that. She eats 273 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: it up. And as Tanya Lavell Banks writes in a 274 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: chapter in the book Law and Justice on the small screen, 275 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: it's impossible to separate the gender of these particular characters 276 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: from the role they're playing. So Brenda Lee Johnson's femininity 277 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: in The Closer is critical to her character, just as 278 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: her toughness and general awesomeness is. And so Banks writes 279 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: that the women aren't just replacing male characters in these shows. 280 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: Their character flaws are just judged through a gender lens. 281 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: They are very much women, like the character of Grace 282 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: and saving Grace had all sorts of problems. She definitely 283 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: had a lot of character flaws, but I mean she 284 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: was also just like such a woman. And I don't mean, 285 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: I know that sounds weird, but there was no there 286 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: were no two bones about it. Like she was not 287 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: being shoved into a male role and all of her 288 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: feminine traits ignored. Like she had very woman's specific issues 289 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: that she dealt with. Yeah, and and Banks also ties 290 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: in Damages in this analysis, which is more a show 291 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: about lawyers and just outright crime than detectives. But she 292 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: talks about Glenn Close's character and that in Glen Close 293 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: is by no means a detective. But she's a great 294 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: example of this of I mean, she's she is almost 295 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: masculine in her ruthlessness, but she is. It doesn't feel 296 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: like she's sacrificing anything. He doesn't feel like the characters 297 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: were like, well, we wanted a dude to play this, 298 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: but Glenn Close will do. We'll just change the names 299 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: in it. Um. But one thing too, about a lot 300 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: of just detective characters in general, I think they are 301 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: often portrayed as loners. I mean, think about Matthew McConaughey 302 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: and True Detective. When you toss gender into that and 303 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: you have women as detectives, um Ana, let's talk about 304 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: how that's that makes them kind of doubly alone. There 305 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: are sort of outliers of the outliers at that point, 306 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: which is interesting. Yeah, exactly. Um. But in terms of 307 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: performing femininity, we talked We've talked a lot about performing 308 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: gender on the podcast before, but Kathleen Murray talks about 309 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: how the investigating woman performs femininity explicitly as a performance, 310 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: something that she can shift and adjust based on her needs. 311 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: Murray writes, it's a tool at her disposal and sometimes 312 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: a trap from which she cannot escape. And this quote 313 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: brought to mind somebody like a Miss Marple or a 314 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: Jessica Fletcher character somebody who operates very much within her 315 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: femininity and performing their femininity to such a degree that 316 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: they are perceived as harmless completely well in the appearance 317 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: factor too, that a lot of people who have focused 318 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: in on, you know, this genre and really dug into it, 319 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: such as Linamajuski he wrote Hard Boiled and High Heeled, 320 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: do pay attention to how these women detectives are portrayed 321 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: in their in their outer trappings, because there has been 322 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: an evolution from say Um Andrew Dickinson and policewoman having 323 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: to wear gowns sometimes and bikinis to still though, one 324 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: thing that I really love about Olivia Benson's character in 325 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: Law and Order SVU is that she always wears incredibly 326 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: flattering blouses even still. And I know that sounds like 327 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: that might be a strange thing to say that I 328 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: really love, but I feel like that is so much 329 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: part of her character. And in the Telegraph, one of 330 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 1: the Telegraph articles we were reading about um female detectives 331 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: on British television, there was a lot of talk of 332 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: their signature clothing pieces as well. There are lots of 333 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: silk blouses and well fitting blazers, and I think it 334 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: is still part of us in the same way though 335 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: that you have. You know, a lot of detectives in 336 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,479 Speaker 1: the past sort of have their their costume. I mean, 337 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: you have Columbo and his dirty trench coat, or Dick 338 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: Tracy and his trench coat. Okay, there's just lots of 339 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: trench coats. Yeah, exactly. But one of the most fascinating 340 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: hallmarks of more contemporary fictional female detectives, unlike say a 341 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: Miss Marple or a JB. Fletcher or maybe just you 342 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: know that the whole spinster type of detective, is that 343 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: I feel like there's there are more character flaws in 344 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: detectives today, which I think is a sign of progress 345 00:21:54,880 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: of showing these women as fully realized characters with baggage. Yeah, 346 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: a lot of these characters are victims of abuse themselves, 347 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: or they're avenging the suffering of family members, like Grace 348 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: from Saving Grace or Olivia Benson from s VU, Olivia 349 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: Dunham from French Temperance Brennan from Bones k back At 350 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: from Castle And the purpose basically is that it's often 351 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: used to explain why characters have trouble forming connections. You 352 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: have to explain why a woman can't be in a 353 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: romantic relationship. But it's also as Jess McCabe from Bitch Rights, 354 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: it's also often the crack and the characters strong woman 355 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: armor that ends up inviting in the almost inevitable male 356 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: love interest. I mean, just watching Castle like that's all 357 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: it is. The sexual tension, yeah, I mean if you 358 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: flip the roles too, if you have the kind of 359 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: loner male detective, I think it's it is also to 360 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: that baggage that tends to draw in the female love interest. Sure, 361 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: and then of course because of that, I gatch a 362 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: lot of them end up exhibiting self destructive behaviors Sarah 363 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 1: Lun from the Killing Chema, Gregs from the Wire. They 364 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: end up struggling between making time for family and dedicating 365 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: themselves to the job, which can of course lead to 366 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: destructive behavior like drinking, cetera. And it's important to talk 367 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: about because, except for get Christie Love, we really have 368 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: not touched on the race and ethnicity aspect of this. 369 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: That so many of these detectives, in being in these 370 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: very traditionally masculine roles, tend to be very conventionally attractive 371 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: cis gender able, bodied, white women. Yeah, you do have 372 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: some age diversity obviously, um, but yeah, Chima is a 373 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: rare example not only though a woman of color in 374 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: one of these roles, but also an LGBT character, which 375 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: I mean that's also something that we haven't talked about 376 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: much at all. And there was I forget which source 377 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: it was who was talking about Risoli and Aisles and 378 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: how they secretly longed for there to be a lesbian 379 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 1: romance between the two because that is something that you 380 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: don't see too much. It is very is a very 381 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: heteronormative genre at this point. Yeah. I think it was 382 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: a list from She Wired about all of the different 383 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: female detective the hot female detective characters who the writer 384 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: was longing to be actually lesbian character, whether they're in 385 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: love with their partner or whatever. And they even had 386 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: a clip of Resolti being you know, like quote unquote 387 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: butch or whatever is she's helping her father fix something 388 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: and how attractive it is Angie Harmon. But over the 389 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: Guardian they were arguing that perhaps these character flaws wouldn't 390 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: be such heaboos if the characters were men, mainly because 391 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: when you have a character like Sarah Lund from The 392 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: Killing her whole thing is that you know, she's going 393 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: to quit her job, she's going to move away. She's 394 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: got a son that she needs to take care of, 395 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: but she often can't be there for her son. She 396 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: arrives at family occasions late, she's ends up being really 397 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: curt And that's what men with important jobs do all 398 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: the time. They write, they said it's easier for them 399 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: to break the rules since they made them in the 400 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: first place. Indeed, the rule breaking, the violence and the 401 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: hard drinking seemed part of what makes them effective detectives. 402 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: Women's behavior, by contrast, is judged against the norm of 403 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: their male colleagues. It can never be invisible, never taken 404 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: for granted, although I will say as an extension of 405 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: that article or that argument of it, can never be 406 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: taken for granted. Um, I don't know that I'm fighting 407 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: for rude behavior to ever just be taken for granted, though. No, 408 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: But I think it's it's unfortunate that it's somehow fifty 409 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,959 Speaker 1: times worse if a woman is doing it than if 410 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: a man is doing it. Yeah, it's just portrayed is 411 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: like shocking and horrific. If a woman's late to pick 412 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: up her son from soccer practice versus a man. Yeah, 413 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: um well, and that I think that too is maybe 414 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: what makes these more modern female detectives like Elizabeth Moss 415 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: on Top of the Lake even more fascinating to us, 416 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: because they do embody a lot of these what we 417 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: would just think of a sort of normal outsider do 418 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: detective kind of characteristics, right, Like one scene from Top 419 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: of the Lake that really sticks stuck with me is 420 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: when she's in a bar and these guys are kind 421 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: of picking on her, and um, they ask, are you 422 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: a feminist? Are you a lesbian? And they say that 423 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: you know, you'd have better luck around here as a 424 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: lesbian because nobody likes a feminist but lesbians. Yeah. Well. 425 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: And speaking of Elizabeth Moss, quick side note Caroline that 426 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: I want to touch on if only to get a 427 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: listener responses to this. She her name was floated when 428 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: True Detective season two was going through its casting process 429 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: and everyone was waiting to see if she would be 430 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: on it. Rachel McAdams was also mentioned as being considered, 431 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: and I know a lot of people were asking their 432 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: fingers for similarity detectives on the next season of True Detective, 433 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: which we could devote an entire podcast due to talking 434 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: about the gender representations in that which I mean full disclosure. 435 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: I loved True Detective, but not everyone was a huge 436 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: fan of it from a female perspective. Um, so disappointed 437 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: to see that it's going to be Vince Vawn and 438 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 1: Colin Farrell instead of at least come on at least 439 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: like Vince Vawn and Elizabeth Moss, Vince Vawn, Rachel McAdams, 440 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: Colin Farrell, you could take him, really relieve them. But um, 441 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: you know, one thing that we mentioned earlier, especially talking 442 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: about Olivia Benson on s VU, is the whole sort 443 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: of rape narrative of using sexual assault as the crux 444 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: of a show's plot. And a lot of times shows 445 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: that feature topics like this are depicted as being feminist, like, hey, 446 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: we're dealing with the horrors of society, the horrors that 447 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: face a lot of women. But a lot of folks 448 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: really take issue with the depiction of violence and family 449 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: dynamic dynamics in this show. For instance, Emily nust Bomb, 450 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: who we sided earlier from The New Yorker and Katie 451 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 1: Keller from Jezebel Uh talk about this. Nest Bomb writes 452 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: that at its greasy ist, SVU becomes a string of 453 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: rape fantasies justified by healing truisms, and Kelly writes that 454 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: while the larger narrative is one of justice prevailing, which 455 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,719 Speaker 1: is good, it's still using assault for entertainment and for 456 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: people troubled by this, it's also the distancing factor of it. 457 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: I mean, you can it's a show that you can pause, 458 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: turn off. You can cheer when the guy gets arrested 459 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: or when Olivia Benson does something awesome. But I mean 460 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: some say that it can also be therapeutic, whether or 461 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: not you are a survivor. As someone described it as, 462 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: quote a ritualistic confrontation with fear. It's the same kind 463 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: of thing that we talked about Caroline in our episode 464 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: on why women in particular love true crime series. And 465 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: it's also too, I think with SVU, the dynamic of 466 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: Olivia Benson being the product of her mother's rape and 467 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: how that ties into the show, and also women dealing 468 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: with women, female victims of sexual assault and violence. Um. 469 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not it's not perfect. No, it's certainly 470 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: not perfect. Um, But I think there's a lot there's 471 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: still a lot of important stuff in there. Sure, Um, yeah, 472 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: especially since a lot of TV is just fantasy, right, 473 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: and there is this fantasy from SPU that the police 474 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: are always going to be on your side if you're 475 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: a victim or survivor of assault. Like it's it's satisfying 476 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: to watch week after week is the bad guys go 477 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: to jail and the victims, you know, get justice. Um. 478 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: But it also features a lot of quote unquote bad 479 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: victims storylines where a promiscuous woman wrongly accuses a man 480 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: of assault, and it can veer uncomfortably into the gratuitous 481 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: violen some voyeurism territory. Well, in speaking of the voyeurism territory, UM, 482 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: not to harp on True Detective, but that's that is 483 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: something that people who are uncomfortable with in terms of 484 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: the portrayal sometimes of just the naked, dead female bodies 485 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: done up in very kind of attractive ways, almost in 486 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: almost pornographic ways. From time to time in the show, 487 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: people were like, oh, I don't know about that. So 488 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: at least an s VU, you have some of the 489 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: victims survivors have a little more agency at least. Yeah. 490 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: But one one question that I really had never considered 491 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: before looking into this topic, um, and when you specifically look, 492 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: for instance, that Jillian Anderson's show The Fall. When it 493 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,479 Speaker 1: comes to women starring in these shows, a writer at 494 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: The Guardian says, I wonder if the series could have 495 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: gotten away with its portrayal of the sexual torture of 496 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: women if it hadn't had a strong professional woman at 497 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: its center. Did Anderson's d C I Gibson legitimize the 498 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: portrayal of sexual horror? So basically saying, you know, great, 499 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: you have these strong female detectives at the center of 500 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: a show, but is it like being used as a 501 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: gay way to portray so many horrific stories of sexual violence, 502 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: whereas if a man were at the helm of the 503 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: show it would be more uncomfortable for us to watch. 504 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: I don't think that gender is being used as a 505 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: tool to legitimize the portrayal of sexual horror. I think 506 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: that this is more a product of television in general 507 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: taking more chances, becoming more cinematic, telling richer and sometimes 508 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: even more horrifying stories than it ever has before. Because 509 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: you know, as a lot of people say TV, DV 510 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,479 Speaker 1: or television is the new film. Really, I mean, just 511 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: look at something like Top of the Lake or or 512 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: the Fall, or even True Detective. Just like, how what 513 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: in depth and incredibly visual storytelling you have right there. 514 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: And I think if anything, it's I I am a 515 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: fan of the fact that it's a woman leading these 516 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: these stories. Yeah, And I think it's fascinating to see 517 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: these women characters leading stories like this now and in 518 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: the year. Um, especially when you look back at Angie 519 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: Dickinson or Peggy Lipton or or women like that, who 520 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: you know, we're basically there to just kind of be 521 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: props essentially, um. And so yeah, there's a lot of 522 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: ick factor when you have really graphic or horrible sexual violence. Um. 523 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: But I mean, I think it's an very interesting illustration 524 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: of how far we've come in the portrayal of women 525 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: and women's issues. Well, and then it becomes the point of, well, 526 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,239 Speaker 1: that's more a conversation about the line of what is 527 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: important to see and confront and what just desensitizes us. 528 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: But when it comes to these female detective characters, um, 529 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: maybe it's good in terms of being desensitized to the 530 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: shock of seeing them in these roles. So maybe you know, 531 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: five ten years from now, lady detectives, Lady detective shows 532 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: will just be detective shows, So we had so much 533 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: to talk about, and hopefully you all have lots to 534 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: talk about to us as well. What are your favorite 535 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: kinds of women lead detective shows? Who are your favorite detectives? 536 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: Where are j B. Fletch Fans? Email us mom Stuff 537 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our address, And 538 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: we didn't even have time to talk about all of 539 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: the shows and all the detectives. Hello, Veronica mars Um. 540 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: So there were characters or shows that we didn't mention. 541 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: Please alert us to that again. Mom Stuff at how 542 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: stefwork dot com is our email address. You can also 543 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: tweet us at mom Stuff podcast and messages on Facebook, 544 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 545 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: you right now. Al Right, we have a couple of 546 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: letters here about our vaping episode. This one's from Emmy. 547 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: She says I smoked cigarettes for more than twenty years 548 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: and my partner smoked as well. We have recently quit smoking, 549 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: and what made it possible was the cigarettes. He prefers 550 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: the cigarette shape and I prefer the vape pen. Whatever 551 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: it takes to get off the tobacco, we decided. I've 552 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: been to three different vapor shops. One was so dude, bro, 553 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: I just left. It was more misogynistic than radio shack 554 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: in the eighties. One was fine geared towards d I 555 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 1: y culture and not overly gendered, but one. I usually 556 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: go to a staff mostly by women, but there are 557 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: men who work there. Also. The atmosphere is welcoming, and 558 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: they answered all of my many, many questions for me. 559 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 1: The general idea is that the vaping is a stopgap 560 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: measure between a pack a day and healthier lungs. Nicotine 561 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 1: has nothing to mess around with, and adding cold turkey 562 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: is like being dropped into the deepest pit of depression 563 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: with a side order of migraine. I have enough trouble 564 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: with depression, so I'm going to taper down. I failed 565 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: at tapering down. My cigarette used because I love smoking, 566 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: but vaping is just nicotine delivery. I don't love it, 567 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: but it's enough to keep me off the smokes, even 568 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: though I have a pack in my desk drawer. Not 569 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: smoking because I have no cigarettes isn't the same thing 570 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: as deciding every day that I no longer smoke. I've 571 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: gone without cigarettes before, but this time I quit f Yeah, 572 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: I have two weeks of zero cigarettes and only one 573 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: pack in the month before that. I'm really glad to 574 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: have the option to vape, at least until I give 575 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: that up. Also, so thanks Tommy Well. I gotta let 576 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: her here from Milly about our episode on is cat 577 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: calling harassment? Sheer right, Hi, I really like your podcast. 578 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: I just wanted to say I found your episode on 579 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: cat calling very interesting. I am just twelve, I am 580 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,240 Speaker 1: very strong, politically viewed and mature, I think, and I'm 581 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: quite the fear of alcohol and drunk people. Before watching 582 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: I did watch the ten Hours in New York video 583 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: and was very surprised, not only at the editing but 584 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: the amount of cat calling, especially considering she wasn't doing 585 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: anything provocative. After watching this video, I was also surprised 586 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: how little I've noticed cat calling in both New Zealand 587 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: and Australia. I've lived in both places, even in major centers. 588 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: Your episode helped me understand why the freaky men in 589 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: that video said and did the things they did. I 590 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: really enjoyed this episode, and you guys are awesome. Well, Milly, 591 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: you are awesome twelve year old who uses provocative correctly, 592 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: and so is everybody who writes into us mom stuff 593 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: at how stuffworks dot com is our email address. You 594 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: can also find links to all of our social media blogs, videos, 595 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,919 Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one with links to all of 596 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: those books and articles we talked about with Lady Detectives 597 00:36:54,239 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: over at our website, stuff mom Never Told You dot com. 598 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,319 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 599 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com