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Speaker 1: Welcome to the solid verbal. Call that for me. I'm

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Speaker 1: a man, I'm forty. I've heard so many players say, well,

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Speaker 1: I want to be happy.

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Speaker 2: You want to be happy for a day?

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Speaker 1: Edith State is that woo woom?

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Speaker 2: And Dan and Tie Welcome back to the Solid Verbal

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Speaker 2: Boys and girls, My name is Ty Hildenbrand. Joining me

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Speaker 2: today Matt Brown from the Extra Points College Football newsletter.

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Speaker 2: Dan is still taking some time off. Don't worry, he's fine.

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Speaker 2: He mentioned to me this morning that he thought we

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Speaker 2: secret verbaled him on the last show. He wasn't sure.

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Speaker 2: Of course, I played ignorance, but he did seem to

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Speaker 2: enjoy it. So good job, good effort. Team. You can

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Speaker 2: call off the dogs now. Look, don't forget the subscribe

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Speaker 2: to the show. If you haven't already, you can go

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Speaker 2: to soliverbal dot com. That's the website upper right hand corner.

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Speaker 2: You can find all the links for how to subscribe

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Speaker 2: to the show. We're going twice a week all throughout

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Speaker 2: the offseason. At some point, once we get closer to

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Speaker 2: the season, we will switch back up to three episodes

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Speaker 2: per week, but a couple months away from that actually

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Speaker 2: being a thing. Look us up on social media. All

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Speaker 2: the hotspots and check out our Patreon at verbolers dot com.

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Speaker 2: Today's guest Matt Brown, a longtime friend of the show,

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Speaker 2: never actually a guest on the show, so I wanted

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Speaker 2: to change that because he's doing great work with his

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Speaker 2: Extra Points Newsletter, an awesome source of information if you're

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Speaker 2: just interested in how the college football sausage is made,

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Speaker 2: top quality work, and he's just done some really detailed

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Speaker 2: reporting now that I want to discuss with them in

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Speaker 2: the wake of that EA Sports announcement about the game

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Speaker 2: coming back, So we're going to chat a little bit

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Speaker 2: about that. We'll wade a little bit into the territory

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Speaker 2: about name, image and likeness, the stuff that we discussed

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Speaker 2: with Andy Staples on Tuesday, and we're also going to

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Speaker 2: talk about of the quirks of the twenty twenty season,

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Speaker 2: maybe some of the lessons learned, and what we expect

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Speaker 2: to see as an output of a really weird college

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Speaker 2: football year. Without further ado, let's welcome Matt Brown of

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Speaker 2: the show, all right, joining me now. It is the

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Speaker 2: esteemed author of the Extra Points Newsletter, which you could

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Speaker 2: find at extra points mb dot com. He's also got

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Speaker 2: a new podcast called Going for two what he does

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Speaker 2: with our friend Brian Fisher. It's Matt Brown. Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show. I don't, Matt, have we ever had you

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Speaker 2: on the show?

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Speaker 1: We haven't. I was just thinking about this. This was

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Speaker 1: would have been on my career bucket list. I think

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Speaker 1: when I started doing this all these years ago, right,

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Speaker 1: it was what a god for us to call doing

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Speaker 1: the Tonight show if you were a college football blogger.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad to finally make my appearance.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's great to have you. We've been friends for

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Speaker 2: a long time, all the way back to the days

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Speaker 2: when you were working for Espnation and I know, doing

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Speaker 2: Ohio State content and other stuff for SBN. What is

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Speaker 2: Extra Points?

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Speaker 1: Sure? So? Extra Points is a newsletter that tries to

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Speaker 1: really dig into all the stuff that shapes college athletics

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Speaker 1: that we don't really see on the field. We talk

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Speaker 1: about college sports, and for good reason, we spend a

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Speaker 1: lot of time talking about the sports part and maybe

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Speaker 1: not as much the college side. So this is a

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Speaker 1: newsletter that talks about things like higher education policy and

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Speaker 1: how athletic department finance budgets work, and how changing student

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Speaker 1: demographic patterns impact the ability for universities to make athletic

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Speaker 1: investments and all of these things that you only think

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Speaker 1: about a whole lot, but it really does have a

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Speaker 1: pretty big impact about what schools are actually good at.

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Speaker 1: Sports publishes four days a week and doing that now

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Speaker 1: for almost two years.

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Speaker 2: With that being said, we started talking recently about the

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Speaker 2: news that came out, obviously about the video game, because

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Speaker 2: this is what we do now, the only important news,

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Speaker 2: the only important news. It came out that Notre Dame

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Speaker 2: said they don't want to be part part of the game,

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Speaker 2: at least not until the whole NIL legislation gets sorted out.

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Speaker 2: So we did a show on Monday. I talked Andy

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Speaker 2: Staples about NIL. We got his hot takes on where

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Speaker 2: things are headed in college football with respect to name,

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Speaker 2: image and likeness. But I wanted to bring Mat on

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Speaker 2: because we both feel like this got a bit misconstrued

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Speaker 2: by what Notre Dame bant. A lot of people took

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Speaker 2: it as Notre Dame doesn't want to be part of

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Speaker 2: the game. They're cutting off their nose despite their face.

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Speaker 2: I think you and I, if I understand, correctly, see

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Speaker 2: things much much differently. Matt. Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I think that is correct. For one I think

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Speaker 1: it's premature for anybody to say at this point, at

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Speaker 1: least for an FBS program, but they're not going to

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Speaker 1: be in the game. The game isn't going to come

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Speaker 1: out for two more years. There's a long time to

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Speaker 1: get from A to B. But what Notre Dame said

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Speaker 1: wasn't that they didn't want to be in the football game,

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Speaker 1: was that they didn't want to participate in the game

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Speaker 1: unless there was a mechanism to directly compensate the players

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Speaker 1: that were going to be in the game. And there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of time for that to happen. And I

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Speaker 1: would imagine that Andy agreed here, but I would I

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Speaker 1: would even I would be very surprised if when this

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Speaker 1: game eventually comes out that current athletes likenesses are not used.

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Speaker 1: There's given how quickly and how dramatically name image of

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Speaker 1: likeness legislation is changing. I would I alould feel very confident

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Speaker 1: in the next eighteen months that there's going to be

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Speaker 1: a mechanism for that to happen. And so now a

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Speaker 1: Notre Dame gets to say they're not really giving anything

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Speaker 1: up by saying that they're not wanting to participate now,

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Speaker 1: but they get to one look like a real player's

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Speaker 1: program that they're willing to leave money on the table

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Speaker 1: to advocate for the financial interests of their athletes, and

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Speaker 1: they also get to put a little bit of extra

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Speaker 1: political pressure because if they can kind of sneak out

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Speaker 1: in the world, we'd like to be a part of

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Speaker 1: this game. If X Y and Z happens, well, that

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Speaker 1: makes it much easier for Notre Dame fans to start

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Speaker 1: sending emails and letters asking well, why is an X,

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Speaker 1: Y and Z happening? And if that means that they

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Speaker 1: start putting a little bit of pressure on May maybe

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Speaker 1: indianas two senators, then all the better here for one

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Speaker 1: hundred Dame, and all the better for consumers of this

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Speaker 1: video game.

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Speaker 2: It is sort of a parlor trick to drum up

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Speaker 2: some pr support, and I think too, as you said, rightly,

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Speaker 2: make it look like a bit of a player's program.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a wise move. I want to harken

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Speaker 2: back though, to your last point about putting pressure on Congressman. Certainly,

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Speaker 2: video games as a whole have been part of a

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Speaker 2: larger societal conversation for years. That's not anything new. I

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Speaker 2: can't think of any though that have cracked the sports

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Speaker 2: realm like this one, Like you've got members of Congress

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Speaker 2: openly talking about legislation specifically to get the video game

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Speaker 2: back up and running. It seems like we've entered do

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Speaker 2: territory with this thing where the game maybe kickstarted the

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Speaker 2: whole debate. The demise of the game, pissed off enough

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Speaker 2: people that they wanted it back and started talking about this,

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Speaker 2: and now we're almost at the point where the game

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Speaker 2: is the vehicle by which we're going to usher in

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Speaker 2: this new era of nil and perhaps video gaming at large.

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Speaker 1: It's it's so funny. I think you're You're absolutely right,

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Speaker 1: and I think there's this huge gap in understanding between

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Speaker 1: the individuals that are really making these decisions and the consumers, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, even among my audience and a lot of

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Speaker 1: my readers are you know, athletic directors and conference commissioners

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Speaker 1: and people who work in this industry along with regular fans.

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Speaker 1: The demand when I write anyone, when I when I

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Speaker 1: write about name image of likeness, which I've done often,

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Speaker 1: the number one of the feedback I get from any

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Speaker 1: fan is how does this impact the video game? Or great?

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Speaker 1: You know, you can talk to me about the FTC

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Speaker 1: and you can get in the weeds about all this

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Speaker 1: antitrust stuff, but just tell me what it means for

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Speaker 1: the video game. And it's it's interesting. I feel like

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Speaker 1: some senate staffers aired and not letting their bosses know.

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Speaker 1: Like list, if you come out in favor of a

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Speaker 1: group licensing group license mechanism, there's not a single voter

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Speaker 1: that's going to punish you. There's not a single conservative

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Speaker 1: voter that's going to think, if we have a group

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Speaker 1: license that's giving too much to athletes, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: vote for another person. But it's the easiest layup in

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Speaker 1: the world because if you are like twenty three to forty,

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Speaker 1: this college video game was a transformational experience in your

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Speaker 1: college football fandom. This is what connected you to all

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Speaker 1: these different schools. It's what made you fall in love

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Speaker 1: with your PlayStation. And there's an enormous rush to bring

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Speaker 1: that back. I think it would be the biggest, the

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Speaker 1: biggest layoup. And it is funny. Sometimes really significant political

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Speaker 1: changes happen for maybe more superficial reasons, and it's entirely

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Speaker 1: possible that we'll look back and realize that what really

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Speaker 1: got the engine going, and some of these really big

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Speaker 1: changes in how we define amateurism is in a large

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Speaker 1: part because people want to bring Dynasty Mode back.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy. It is crazy. Who doesn't want Dynasty Mode back.

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Speaker 2: It's it's just been cool to see, of all things,

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Speaker 2: the video game kind of driving the ship here. I

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Speaker 2: feel like I've buried a little bit of the lead

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Speaker 2: because when we exchanged emails and texts earlier, you mentioned

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Speaker 2: the quote gazillion Foyer requests that you had been a

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Speaker 2: part of. We have to talk about the Foyer requests.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I feel like when I go through

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Speaker 2: and produce this show, we're going to have to put

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Speaker 2: Foyer Requests somewhere in the title or at least in

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Speaker 2: the body the description of the episode, because people care

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Speaker 2: about that stuff, and you did send out a gazillion

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Speaker 2: of them. Why did you send out a gazillion of them?

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Speaker 2: What are you trying to accomplish?

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Speaker 1: Sure? So, I love the Freedom of Information Act, and

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Speaker 1: I love all of the various versions of that that

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Speaker 1: apply to every other state, because this is a great

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Speaker 1: way to find out information when a school doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: want to tell you right. This is the tool that

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Speaker 1: we use so we can look up coaching contracts and

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Speaker 1: we can figure out what their buyouts are going to be,

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Speaker 1: and you can get an idea for what you know.

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Speaker 1: Boosters and other third parties are telling athletic directors or

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Speaker 1: coaches in a way that you can't necessarily tease that

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Speaker 1: out from a press conference, especially over the last year

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Speaker 1: when we haven't had a chance to do as many

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Speaker 1: press conferences or have that same level of access. So

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Speaker 1: this has been a pretty consistent reporting tool for me

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Speaker 1: when I run Extra Points. And as soon as that

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Speaker 1: video game came out, I was really cure about the

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Speaker 1: announcement of the new video game coming Back. I was

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Speaker 1: I was curious. Well, you know, in the initial story

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Speaker 1: with ESPN, the EA Sports mentioned that they have over

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Speaker 1: one hundred teams signed up. Well, that's not one hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty. So clearly there's some team, there's some schools

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Speaker 1: here that are aware of this video game and didn't

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Speaker 1: immediately sign up. And there's a lot of other schools

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Speaker 1: that would like to be in this video game and

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Speaker 1: weren't mentioned in this in this press release. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you go back, I think it was like two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven or so, there were SCS teams in

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Speaker 1: the game. You know, I don't think all of them.

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Speaker 1: I don't think the Patriot League was in it, but

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of other scs insteaditutions. And you

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Speaker 1: can still find people who are still playing the original

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Speaker 1: PlayStation too, so they can keep playing as like Morgan

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Speaker 1: State or Portland State or something. Right, So I filed

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Speaker 1: an open records request for about one hundred and sixty

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Speaker 1: FBS and FCS institution.

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Speaker 2: How long did that take?

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Speaker 1: You know, normally, if you'd asked me like two years ago,

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Speaker 1: it would have taken me a week. But I've built

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Speaker 1: a gigantic spreadsheet and my old business partner, Daniel little Bit,

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Speaker 1: helped me with this. He's over at Sportico now that

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Speaker 1: has the correct records keeper for every single FBS institution,

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Speaker 1: so I could now BC see them and send out

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Speaker 1: really big batches relatively quickly. You know. It's funny. It

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Speaker 1: still took me a couple of hours because a lot

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Speaker 1: of schools have individual forms you have to fill out,

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Speaker 1: but I got every public school that I'm allowed to

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Speaker 1: foil them for FBS and FCS. Try to understand who's

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Speaker 1: in the game, and if they're not in the game,

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Speaker 1: are they communicating why they're not in the game, and

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Speaker 1: what some of those communications are like. And you know

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Speaker 1: already I found out I got something back from Murray State,

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Speaker 1: which sent me a communication from the CLC, which is

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Speaker 1: the licensing organization that works with most colleges, not everybody,

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Speaker 1: that said, hey, as of right now, you know a

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Speaker 1: lot of people are asking about it. We're not planning

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Speaker 1: on including SCS programs at launch. We might include them

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Speaker 1: later on, So you know, given to this as EA,

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Speaker 1: don't be surprised if there's a DLC package a couple

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Speaker 1: of months after launch, so you could play with your

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Speaker 1: HBCUs and your Patriot League and your Missouri Valley teams.

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Speaker 1: And then I also found communications from some other institutions

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Speaker 1: that either expressed reservations or did not immediately jump on board,

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Speaker 1: like Notre Dame. So I honestly would not be surprised

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Speaker 1: if in the next week or two we saw an

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Speaker 1: institution give a similar statement to the press that under

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Speaker 1: Dame did, saying that we're not going to participate unless X, Y,

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Speaker 1: or Z happen. Some of those are going to be

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Speaker 1: really big names like Notre Dame. Some of them might

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Speaker 1: not be, because I've seen documents to suggest that there

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Speaker 1: are some Mountain West in common Diference USA teams that

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Speaker 1: are not excuse me, not Conference American Athletic Association teams

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Speaker 1: that are not immediately on board.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned before two years for the game. Where does

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Speaker 2: that two years number come from.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's come from a couple of places. One, this

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Speaker 1: is the timeline that the CLC itself is telling member

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Speaker 1: institutions right that they're again that there's this licensing organization.

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Speaker 1: I have the actual email that I've written about here

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Speaker 1: at extra points saying, look, we know that some fans

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Speaker 1: are going to expect that we're just going to reskin

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Speaker 1: the NCAA twenty fourteen game and rush this thing out

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Speaker 1: in a couple of months, But that was multiple console

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Speaker 1: cycles ago. Like the code isn't just a copy and

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Speaker 1: paste job. That development team has been they're not with

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Speaker 1: the company anymore, or they've been moved on to other projects.

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Speaker 1: We want to do this right, and that's going to

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Speaker 1: require some substantial changes. So I want to say the

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Speaker 1: exact language in the CLC email was it may take

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Speaker 1: several years for this to come out. Even EA Sports

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Speaker 1: right after that teaser was saying like this, you know

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Speaker 1: this is going to take a little while, So my

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Speaker 1: expectation is that you'll probably see some kind of teaser

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Speaker 1: or some additional information about this game, maybe in next

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Speaker 1: year's you know, you know, major consumer electronics exposed. But

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Speaker 1: I would not expect to be able to sit down

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Speaker 1: with my PlayStation and play it probably until twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we've talked about it on the show

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Speaker 2: for a while. They definitely got in that cycle where

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Speaker 2: they were kind of remaking the older version of the game.

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Speaker 2: The difference between twenty thirteen and twenty fourteen, let's say,

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Speaker 2: wasn't that drastic. A couple tweaks here and there they

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Speaker 2: made it better, but ultimately it was kind of the

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Speaker 2: same deal. But you're right, like we have now pretty

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Speaker 2: much skipped an entire generation of consoles. There was never

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Speaker 2: a version made for the PS four, and with the

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Speaker 2: PS five now being more and more available, you would

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Speaker 2: assume that they're going to have to do a complete

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Speaker 2: step change in order to make the thing better. What

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Speaker 2: I'm curious to see, and I tend to agree with

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Speaker 2: you that we're going to see players in the game,

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Speaker 2: But a lot has changed on the EA side over

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Speaker 2: the course of time, where the model has geared a

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Speaker 2: lot more towards micro transactions. What does that mean? You

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Speaker 2: can buy stuff in the game, and they've done that

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Speaker 2: really well with Madden, They've done that really well with FIFA.

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Speaker 2: I think there was an old Ultimate Team mode, I

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Speaker 2: know it was there in the twenty fourteen version of

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Speaker 2: the game, where they could probably use that in a

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Speaker 2: newer version and they could steer more into that micro

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Speaker 2: transaction thing to make money, because let's face it, when

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Speaker 2: this game drops, there's going to be a gazillion people

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Speaker 2: that want to buy it. It's going to be one

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Speaker 2: of their top selling titles almost instantly. So I guess

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Speaker 2: I'm just curious the balance between what does it mean

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Speaker 2: for them to have current players in the game versus

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Speaker 2: what does it mean to just have a game where

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Speaker 2: people can go in there, play it again for the

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Speaker 2: first time in a in a eternity, and start buying

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Speaker 2: stuff and making them money.

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Speaker 1: It is. It's such a weird dynamic because I feel

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Speaker 1: like the college football game had a really different experience

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Speaker 1: if you're playing it on a one player mode. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think we've taken this for granted because it's been

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Speaker 1: so many years since we've had this game. But online

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Speaker 1: gaming for consoles wasn't nearly as mature of an industry

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Speaker 1: back in twenty thirteen times, oh.

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Speaker 2: My god, not even close as is now.

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Speaker 1: No, Like I remember when I had the Xbox three sixty,

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Speaker 1: I had to buy like an external USB dongle to

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Speaker 1: play online, and most a lot of games didn't play

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Speaker 1: online at all. Like what made the NCAABLELIEU football franchise

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Speaker 1: so attractive and so men's amerizing you for me, and

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Speaker 1: I think for you, and I think for most people

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Speaker 1: was the Dynasty mode. It was this idea to go

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Speaker 1: pick you know, take Middle Tennessee State, or take Acron,

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Speaker 1: or take some imported team that we made up and

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Speaker 1: guide them from essentially a Division two program to a powerhouse.

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Speaker 1: And that's a more solo experience. Now, I think you

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Speaker 1: can customize that experience with micro transactions. Like I mean,

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Speaker 1: they obviously can't do this because they need to have

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Speaker 1: some school licenses, but you can imagine a world where

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Speaker 1: it's like, well, I'm trying to recruit this player, spend

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Speaker 1: five ninety nine to drop a bag and make it

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Speaker 1: more likely to bring that player.

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Speaker 2: On, right, Well, what you see in.

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Speaker 1: Micro transactions, I think with both EA and with two

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Speaker 1: K I play NBA two K. A lot is that

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Speaker 1: you use those micro transactions to skip ahead in that

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Speaker 1: grinding process. So if you're doing like a solo player

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Speaker 1: campaign like they used to have for EA Sports, maybe

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Speaker 1: you or for at college football, maybe you can drop

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Speaker 1: a little bit of money to automate some of those

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Speaker 1: practice sessions or to boost your characters attributes a little

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Speaker 1: bit or I don't know. I don't even really know

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Speaker 1: if we're going to have an Ultimate Team mode in

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Speaker 1: the same way you have for the other EA Sports games,

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Speaker 1: or even if it does exist, if it would be

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Speaker 1: as popular. I do think it's a pretty safe assumption though,

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Speaker 1: that is going to try and to find ways for

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Speaker 1: you to spend money beyond the seventy bucks. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: to actually get the game.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well there, Dan and I talked about this before

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Speaker 2: they could somehow merge the Ultimate Team with the Dynasty Mode,

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Speaker 2: Because you're right, the Dynasty Mode that was like a

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Speaker 2: seminal moment for a lot of us when that became

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Speaker 2: a thing, certainly throughout college for me. I mean, that

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Speaker 2: was what we did when we weren't you out and

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Speaker 2: about the town. So it strikes me as something that's important,

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Speaker 2: and I think if they're going to try and retain

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Speaker 2: the luster of the game, they need to make sure

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Speaker 2: that they incorporate that. But again, you know, the bigger

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Speaker 2: question remains the players in the game. Are they actually

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Speaker 2: going to have real likenesses? Are they not? I feel

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Speaker 2: like that's a huge selling point for a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: though I do think if they put a game out

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Speaker 2: tomorrow and they didn't have that, people would still play

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Speaker 2: it just to kind of get back in the swing

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Speaker 2: of things. I guess the biggest barrier to entry then

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Speaker 2: is that licensing component that you mentioned earlier, And there

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Speaker 2: are bills in Congress now, some have group licensing, some don't.

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Speaker 2: What do you see as the eventual future state that

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Speaker 2: gets this deal done. How do they structure it for

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Speaker 2: something like college football, which is not like the NFLPA,

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Speaker 2: where you've got a players association that bargains on behalf

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Speaker 2: of the players, at least not yet. How does this

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Speaker 2: eventually happen when it happens.

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Speaker 1: It's a really good question, and I've talked to a

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Speaker 1: couple of antitrust experts who actually who have suggested that,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe you really can't do this without a union,

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Speaker 1: and that is that is the reason why NCAA administrators

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Speaker 1: and school administrators right now have been so reticent to

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Speaker 1: embrace group licensing because what they would the name image

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Speaker 1: like is the idea of an athlete making a couple

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Speaker 1: hundred bucks for an autograph session or from selling some

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Speaker 1: Instagram ads. That really doesn't bother most athletic directors. Some

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Speaker 1: coaches might complain about it, because coaches complained about literally everything,

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Speaker 1: but that alone is not a existential threat. But the

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Speaker 1: idea that that might open the door for codifying an

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Speaker 1: employee employer relationship, that's the existential threat. And I believe

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Speaker 1: the a couple months ago when they were first talking

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Speaker 1: about this, Big East Commissioner Val Ackerman was saying like,

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Speaker 1: this is why we don't think we can do group licensing.

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Speaker 1: The entity that can force them to do it as Congress,

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Speaker 1: And I mean, there was actually another name image likeness

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Speaker 1: bill introduced today from a Senator from Kansas that was

401
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Speaker 1: much more expansive than what had been proposed six months ago.

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Speaker 1: What I imagine that's going to happen is we're going

403
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Speaker 1: to see a federal sweeping college athletics reform bill that's

404
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Speaker 1: going to be signed probably in Q three or Q

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Speaker 1: four of this year, and it's going to produce some

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Speaker 1: kind of national standard for name, image, you likeness legislation,

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Speaker 1: so you won't have thirty six different states doing things.

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Speaker 1: It's not going to make athletes employees, and there's going

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Speaker 1: to be a group licensing component, and then the event

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Speaker 1: everyone's going to haggle over what kind of medical obligations

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Speaker 1: are school is going to have, What is this going

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Speaker 1: to mean for transfer rules? What is this going to

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Speaker 1: mean for anti trust exemption? I suspect that eventually the

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Speaker 1: NC DOUBLEA will concede to allowing a group licensed mechanism,

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Speaker 1: whether that's through the NFLPA, whether that's through the College Athletes,

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Speaker 1: the organization that had been in organizing athletes to protest

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Speaker 1: but before the beginning of the season, whether that's another entity.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's going to be an easy thing

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Speaker 1: to say yes to, to maybe take some of the

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Speaker 1: more scary things to the NC DOUBLEA off the board,

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Speaker 1: and that's probably where we're headed.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned the NC double A, and I know you've

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Speaker 2: reached out to athletic directors and folks within the business

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Speaker 2: of college football, but have you had a chance to

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Speaker 2: get anyone from the NC double A to comment on this,

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Speaker 2: either put their name to it or on background, like

427
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Speaker 2: how do they feel about this asteroid that's headed towards

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Speaker 2: college football?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean specifically about the video game. The number

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Speaker 1: one bit of feedback I've gotten is I cannot believe

431
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Speaker 1: so many people care so much about this, which speaks

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Speaker 1: speaks to this, to this generational divide right where I

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Speaker 1: think if you're over fifty five, it just does not compute.

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Speaker 1: And now I think that those individuals are getting some

435
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,159
Speaker 1: education here right now. I've talked to a lot of

436
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 1: the administrators from smaller conferences and smaller schools that say, like, honestly,

437
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 1: I'm tired of talking about this, Like let's just allow it.

438
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: It's really not going to be a big like a

439
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 1: big deal for most of our athletes. And all the

440
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: time and meetings that we spend haggling over something that's

441
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: going to impact a couple of kids at Clemson and

442
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: Ohio State, it's time that we're taking away from you know,

443
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 1: supporting our academic mission or helping our people graduate, or

444
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 1: you know, figuring out how we're going to keep Olympic sports.

445
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: I think if you talk to some administrators at FCS

446
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: leagues or even some G five leagues, that's what the

447
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: feedback that you're going to get. But you have a

448
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: couple of leaders some really big schools that are are

449
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 1: still kind of really hardliners against any kind of named

450
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: image of likeness. And there's one thing that I think

451
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 1: scares everybody in the Power five. It's this idea of

452
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,239
Speaker 1: schools getting recruiting advantages, and like, it doesn't really make

453
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 1: sense to me because I know, and you know, and

454
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: God knows, and Mark Emmer knows that this is not

455
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 1: a like a completely fair recruiting playing field anyway. Ohio

456
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 1: State and Alabama and Notre Dame are going to have

457
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 1: advantages over Oregon State forever. They've had that for one

458
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 1: hundred years. But that is what is keeping these administrators

459
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: up at night, is this idea that somehow if you

460
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,640
Speaker 1: codify the ability for a recruit to make a little

461
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: bit of money, then that will throw everything into disarray.

462
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: And I don't think the data supports that, but that's

463
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:54,719
Speaker 1: definitely the concern.

464
00:23:55,040 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 2: It just seems like with the amount of revenue schools

465
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 2: are able to generate off of these kids, that they

466
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: should get a little bit something in return. I know

467
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 2: they get scholarships in a lot of cases, but I

468
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 2: think the value for what they provide far exceeds that

469
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 2: in many cases. So if we are trying to build

470
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 2: a case for this beyond the moral argument that they

471
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: should get something for it, what is the data?

472
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: Well, I look at this way. So let's say that

473
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: I'm wrong and the worst case scenario is correct, and

474
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: that if we allow a name image and likeness marketplace,

475
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 1: that the largest, best financed institutions will have an even

476
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: stronger recruiting advantage over the others. And to that, I'd say,

477
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: look at the recruiting rankings. Now, you're only allowed to

478
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: sign twenty five kids in Alabama's signing twenty four blue Chippers,

479
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: Like you've had the same six schools monopolizing the talent

480
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 1: acquisition since we've really been measuring it in earnest. So

481
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: let's say, Okay, name image, you like this because Alabama

482
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: an advantage, how much better can that recruiting class realistically get?

483
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: Like one school's not going to sign literally the top

484
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: twenty five recruits. You know, four of them are going

485
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: to be quarterbacks. I don't know if there's really a

486
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: meaningful way for like the top six schools to separate

487
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: themselves even more from a parody perspective. So that means, Okay,

488
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 1: it's either worst case is going to stay the same,

489
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: or it might get better. And this is what I've

490
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,959
Speaker 1: heard from economists is that if you are a program

491
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: in a more rural market that has a really defined

492
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: fan base, you're in a position now to make literally

493
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: make a better financial pitch. I could definitely see a

494
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: world where somebody could make more money playing at Nebraska

495
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: or at Mississippi State or even East Carolina. Then they

496
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: might add a more prestigious institution because they have a

497
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: market that's more willing to let them have other commercial opportunities.

498
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of the detractors are kind

499
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,360
Speaker 1: of talking at both sides of their mouth when it's

500
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: this will either this will ruin competitive balance, which has

501
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 1: never existed, or nobody will. Only three people are going

502
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: to take advantage of this. And while like, I don't

503
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: really think there's going to be a ton of football

504
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: players that are going to be making six figures, you

505
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: go again, coming back to the video game, if there's

506
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: a if there's a group license, literally every single football

507
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: player in FBS will get some money from participating in

508
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: this game. That means your name, image of likeness value

509
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: is greater than zero. That payoff might be one hundred

510
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: bucks on a copy of the game, but it's it's

511
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: not nothing.

512
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: Well, and a lot of kids would take that. A

513
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:28,719
Speaker 2: lot of kids would be fine with that.

514
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: Unquestionably, I think I've never talked to an athlete that said,

515
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: you know, I'm glad the game went away. This was

516
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: something you know, they grew up playing it too. They

517
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: want to be able to say that they were in

518
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: the game. I don't think I'd be very surprised if

519
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: in the near future somebody says, you know, I'm going

520
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 1: to hold out for more money. I really want six

521
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. I think the individual amount of money really

522
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 1: probably isn't going to be very much. The schools themselves

523
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: don't get paid very much for the license, Like Notre

524
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: Dame's not getting a three hundred thousand dollars check for

525
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: being in this football game.

526
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and hey, I mean, look in this Brave New world.

527
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 2: EA could use some of these players to endorse the game.

528
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: Unquestionably, you know, they could use some of these players

529
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 1: not just to do commercials for the game, but to

530
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 1: to help promote the game as an esports product and

531
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: to tie that into you know, licensed sponsored organized collegiate esports,

532
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: which is was blowing up all over the country. And

533
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: part of the reason why it hasn't been a very

534
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: good commercial television product is, you know a lot of

535
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: those games that are really popular now are inaccessible. But

536
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: you know, you could put college football on TV, and

537
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: we know people understand it. Some of these athletes themselves

538
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: might want to do it. There's there's so many commercial

539
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: opportunities tied to this particular product that are out there.

540
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 1: It's just involves, you know, some some administrators being willing

541
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 1: to take the take the risk or give up a

542
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: little bit to make it happen.

543
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,239
Speaker 2: Maw let me shift gears a little bit. We've been

544
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: talking a lot about out the game, Nil your crazy

545
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: Foyer requests, which is just madness. If you ask me,

546
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 2: I love it. What did we learn from the twenty

547
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: twenty season? What do you think will be the ultimate

548
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: output from this grand experiment that we just walked through,

549
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: Because we had all sorts of stuff that I would

550
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: imagine was pretty high up on your radar, right, We

551
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: had the influence of TV money in making a season happen.

552
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 2: We had the influence of frankly, being in a conference

553
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: versus not being in a conference for a school like

554
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: Notre Dame, we had the opt outs. What is your takeaway?

555
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: That's a great question. I've been thinking about this a lot,

556
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: because you know, normally during this time of year we

557
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: were considering off season planning, we're thinking about next year,

558
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: and we feel like we have a data set that

559
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: we just watched where you would show comfortable making extrapolations

560
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: about what next season might look like. And one big

561
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: takeaway for me is that I think a lot of

562
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: the data that we saw doesn't make any sense at all,

563
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: and it was it was honestly surprising to me to

564
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: see schools still pay out enormous buyouts to let their

565
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: coaches go in large part based off that data, where

566
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: very few Power Five teams played with the completely full

567
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: roster for extended for extended weeks, games got cancel and

568
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: postponed all of the time, nobody had any kind of

569
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: of of of practice continuity. Like my impulse, as honestly

570
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: is to throw out most of that data at all,

571
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: but a lot of schools didn't. And that's I honestly,

572
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: I think an important takeaway because if there was, if

573
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: the coaching salary and buyout and that marketplace couldn't be

574
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: reset after last year, where these so many of these

575
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: athletic departments are facing such a significant financial crunch, and

576
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: there's all of these great, I mean great like in

577
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: terms of stuff stantial, you know, reasons to to take

578
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: it slow. If schools are still willing to pay that money,

579
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: I don't think anything's going to slow that down short

580
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: of like federal law in an anti trust exemption that

581
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: that limits salaries. The business of college football doesn't really

582
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: stop for anybody. It doesn't. It didn't stop for for athletes.

583
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: I know we had some of the beginning of the

584
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: season where athletes tried to organize and bargain for uh

585
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: for for changes and what they're given in this as

586
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: far as as medical rights.

587
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 2: Uh.

588
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: You know, athletes in the PAC twelve tried to tried

589
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: to bargain for revenue shares and mostly they got steamrolled.

590
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: And I think we've seen the athletes can wield political

591
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: and social pressure on campus, but when they try to

592
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: or at least have tried to kind of integrate across

593
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: teams or as a conference and and and push for

594
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: change that way when they arguably had some real leverage

595
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: this year, it didn't happen, which makes me, honestly think

596
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: more skeptical. But that's going to happen again in the

597
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: near future. Even so, there's there's other commentators that seem

598
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: to be more bullish about it. We're gonna see some changes,

599
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, kind of in terms of how teams schedule

600
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: and what they spend money on, and those are gonna

601
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: last for you know, more and more. But I think

602
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: we're gonna look at this way. We do a look

603
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: at football seasons back in like nineteen forty two, and

604
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: we look at the record books and just think, well, clearly,

605
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: none of this makes sense. We know Alabama was good,

606
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: we know Notre Dame was good during the World War

607
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: two years, we know Army was good, and we just

608
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 1: have to you know, throw the records out because all

609
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: the other all the other data basically doesn't make any

610
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: sense to me.

611
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 2: Do you have any thoughts on what we saw with

612
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 2: Notre Dame at a conference, because obviously that was a

613
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 2: pretty big storyline for me, for Notre Dame fans, for

614
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 2: college football as a whole, it made sense for Notre

615
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: Dame to jump ship from the independence that it enjoys

616
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: enjoying the ACC on a one time, one time only basis.

617
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: I would have to believe at some point in time,

618
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 2: I'm Notre Dame will again be forced to make that

619
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: decision to either reaffirm its independence or join a conference.

620
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: Do we have any data, any thoughts around the economics

621
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 2: of that and whether or not it will make sense

622
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: maybe five years in the future versus what we see presently.

623
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,959
Speaker 1: You know, I do feel pretty confident that this is

624
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: going to be a reoccurring storyline this summer, even if

625
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: Notre Dame fans really don't want it to be. And

626
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: the major reason for that is that right now, if

627
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: Notre Dame joins any conference, as of right now, they

628
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: are contractually obligated to join the ACC, and the ACC,

629
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: unlike the other major leagues, right now, is locked into

630
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: their Tier one television deal for the foreseeable future. The

631
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: vig TAM is going to go to market I think

632
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: next year. The PAC twelve and the Big twelve have

633
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: new deals coming up. The SEC just signed just signed theirs.

634
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: The a SEC is locked up with ESPN, for another decade,

635
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: and they're going to get lapped revenue wise by probably

636
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: everybody else by the end of the decade. And the

637
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: only way that they're going to be able to get

638
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: ESPN to renegotiate is if they meaningfully change their conference membership.

639
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: And the big fishp obviously is going to be Notre Dame,

640
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: and their new commissioner, Jim Phillips, is a Chicago guy.

641
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: He was at Notre Dame before he was at Northwestern.

642
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: I would be shocked if that scenario did not come

643
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: up during his interview process. And that's going to be

644
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: a storyline because, especially as we get a better idea

645
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: of how much more money the Big Ten and maybe

646
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: some of these other leagues will potentially be able to

647
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: get in their TV deal and lap the ACC. I

648
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,959
Speaker 1: don't know if necessarily Notre Dame is going to be

649
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: forced into it. The only way I can think of

650
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: what that might happen would be if for some weird reason,

651
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: the College Football Playoff changed their selection criteria and locked

652
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: Independence out. Notre Dame is the only school that has

653
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: the flexibility and the other revenue streams where I think

654
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: they can still dictate terms a little bit. I think

655
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: we both recognize that there are some forces here outside

656
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: of just pure money that are in play, because you know,

657
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of older Notre Dame grats and

658
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: donors and people connected that university that come hell or

659
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: high water, don't want them to join a league, even

660
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: if maybe that isn't so important to the school's identity

661
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,919
Speaker 1: for people around our age. I'd be a little bit

662
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: surprised if it happened. I think it made sense for

663
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: this year, gave us some good football games, it was

664
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: good for Notre Dame schedule, it made sense for COVID.

665
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure we're going to keep talking about it. I'd

666
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: be surprised if it happens in the immediate future.

667
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't see it happening. Everyone that I've spoken

668
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: with seems pretty adamant about independence woven into the fiber

669
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 2: of Notre Dame. I've said this time and again on

670
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 2: this show. I would be very surprised. I've always been

671
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: in favor of it. But also twenty twenty was such

672
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 2: a quirky season. And keep using this word quirky, but

673
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 2: it's true. I think Jack Swarbrick had the right idea.

674
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 2: He knew that in order to carry on, have a

675
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 2: competitive season, maybe have a chance for a national championship

676
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 2: or even a playoff. Berth they were going to have

677
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: to do something drastic, and that move was to join

678
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: the ACC to become team number fifteen. So it made

679
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 2: sense in context to do it during COVID. I'm just

680
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 2: curious to see what eventually comes of it, because you're right,

681
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: having Notre Dame in the conference for one year was

682
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: an interesting test case. It certainly had more eyes on

683
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 2: the ACC, a conference which right now is very lopsided

684
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 2: at the top with Clemson. There are a whole lot

685
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: of contenders outside of Clemson in the ACC, so to

686
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 2: bring Notre Dame in there, it was an infusion of

687
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: attention and infusion of eyeballs that care about the conference.

688
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: And now to bring over a Chicago guy, somebody who

689
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: knows Notre Dame. I know it's been written about and

690
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: talked about an awful lot online, but it makes sense

691
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: to me that he's got Notre Dame in Jack Swarwick

692
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: on speed dial trying to see what kind of agreement

693
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: they can come up with, because the alt'm a question

694
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 2: here outside of the whole image and the identity that

695
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: Notre Dame has formed around independence. Eventually, someone's going to

696
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 2: put an offer on the table that's too good to

697
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: pass up. What does that offer look like? Is my question?

698
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: What is it going to take. Because everyone's got a price,

699
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 2: what is it going to take to change Notre Dame's

700
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 2: mind in a way that it's it's too good to

701
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 2: pass up?

702
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: It would take a lot of money. And you know, honestly,

703
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be shocked if, heading into this decade, if

704
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 1: rather than the ACC coming up there and we're working

705
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: with ESPN and throwing a gigantic money pot, I wouldn't

706
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: be shocked if, on the other hand, NBC starts thinking,

707
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, we had this good thing going here with Underdame,

708
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: and I wonder if we could get USC to do

709
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: something similar. If USC is frustrated with the direction of

710
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: their programming, and if NBC thinks, like, look what if

711
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: we got two or three teams that are all major

712
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 1: brands and we can we can control their entire television inventory,

713
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: we can try to do this entire thing somewhere else.

714
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: I almost think that's that might be more likely than

715
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 1: Notre Dame jumping into the league. What'll we be looking

716
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,359
Speaker 1: at a you know, Notre Dame would have to pull

717
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: in fifty five sixty million dollars at least, I think

718
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: as per per school distribution to make a jump into

719
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: the ACC. And that's hard for me to see that

720
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: immediately happening. But you know, who knows who decides to

721
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: enter the television world later this decade or what other

722
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: membership changes the league might potentially make.

723
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 2: Well. I know that the likes of Google, Facebook, those

724
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 2: types of platforms were bidding on PAC twelve rights, and

725
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: you would assume that they could afford to pay more

726
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 2: than almost any network. So, especially now as streaming has

727
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: become much more of a mainstay, that some of those

728
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: other platforms might have a stake in the game. Here.

729
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: The question is does that make sense for conferences? Does

730
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: that give them the visible ability that they want? If

731
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: you're the PAC twelve, visibility is not something you've been

732
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: very good at, and so maybe it's worth thinking outside

733
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 2: the box to try and figure out, all right, how

734
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,919
Speaker 2: can we get this product that we have in front

735
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: of as many people as possible. Maybe it takes a

736
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 2: platform like a Google to help you do that. But

737
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: if you're a more traditional conference that you know is

738
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: on in the Eastern time zone and is more marketable

739
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 2: in the Midwest like the Big Ten. Maybe it doesn't

740
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: make sense, so I don't know. I just think we're

741
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: at a really interesting place right now, not just with

742
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 2: Notre Dame, but with how people consume media, how people

743
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 2: watch football. Fewer people have cable now than ever before.

744
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: The dynamics have just changed so drastically.

745
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting your frame it that way.

746
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 2: You know.

747
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 1: My understanding is that one of the reasons that talks

748
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: between Apple TV or some of these other fang companies

749
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,720
Speaker 1: in the PAC twelve didn't progress more was for exactly

750
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 1: that concern about exposure, because yeah, a lot of people stream,

751
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: but there are still a lot more people that have

752
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: cable television or access to cable linear cable television that

753
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: have Apple TV, no matter how good of a show

754
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: ted Lasso is, and that that is a factor for

755
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: coaches and for kids because they want to be You

756
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: want to be able to say you know me and

757
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: while can watch you, Grandma can watch you on TV

758
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 1: without having to futs around with three other apps. It's

759
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: why coaches are terrified to not be on ESPN, even

760
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: if someone else is going to pay them more money

761
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: because they want to be able to say that they

762
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: have that same access. But we're already seeing right now

763
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: colleges you be willing to step outside of the traditional

764
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: framework in the hopes of maximizing revenue. You know, the

765
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 1: Colonial Athletic Association, which is a pretty good SCS football league,

766
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: if not, you know, it's probably one of the top three.

767
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: They have, they signed an agreement with Flow Sports and

768
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: it's all streaming outside of local cable and they Flow

769
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: pays them a rights fee far and above what they

770
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: would have been able to get had they know reupt

771
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: with CBS or ESPN plus. Now, Flow is not cheap

772
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: and a lot of their fans aren't crazy about it,

773
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: but that you know, moves to a platform that then

774
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: was able to maximize their revenue. And so that's going

775
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: to be a question for Notre Dame and for the

776
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: PAC twelve and for the Sun Belt and for everybody else.

777
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: Do you go with what gives you the most exposure?

778
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: Do you go with what gives you the most revenue?

779
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: Do you want to bet on what you think will

780
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: give you the most exposure. We'll still will still give

781
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: you the most exposure. A couple of years. And because yeah,

782
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: and because this has such an outsized role in budgets,

783
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: it's it's it's an enormously important question for college athletics

784
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: because you know, for Power five teams, you're making more

785
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: money from your television, your conference distribution, then you're making

786
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 1: from donations, then you're oftentimes you're making from ticket sales.

787
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:46,879
Speaker 1: Like you have to get this right.

788
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 2: If you were the Pac twelve and you had an

789
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 2: offer on the table at this point. Now they may

790
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 2: have had one in the past, but at this point

791
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: in time, if Google comes to you and they say,

792
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 2: we will pay you far away more than any other suitor.

793
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 2: We will put all of your games available on YouTube,

794
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,439
Speaker 2: We'll do it via apps, will make it as omnipresent

795
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: as possible. It's a compelling case. It's a compelling case

796
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: knowing the era of Pack twelve football that he just

797
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: left behind, where despite all of Larry Scott's efforts, whatever

798
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: they were, it didn't really work to raise the profile

799
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 2: of the conference. So I think the time is right

800
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: for them to think outside the box and maybe do

801
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: something that that wouldn't necessarily be the cookie cutter way

802
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 2: to go about it. But I am clearly not in

803
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: charge of that conference, and why would they listen to me?

804
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: You know, and listen if we were, we would both

805
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 1: have much nicer home offices you've got right now?

806
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 2: I bet for sure, for sure. All right, Well, his

807
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 2: name is Matt Brown. He has so graciously giving us

808
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 2: a lot of his time. Let's talk real quick again

809
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 2: about the newsletter Extra Points mb dot com going for

810
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 2: two the new podcast. You can follow Matt at Matt

811
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: Brown EP on Twitter. What is on the radar over

812
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: on the Extra Points newsletter? What is it that you're

813
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 2: working on now?

814
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a couple of stories that I'm working

815
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: on right now. One thing I've been fascinated with and

816
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get more information about, is to really

817
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: dig into explaining how college athletic systems are different in

818
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: different countries. We have Canadian college football, we have Japanese

819
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 1: college football. My family is from Brazil and American football

820
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: has been growing there and some universities have kicked around

821
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: starting programs. But if you're starting it now, you don't

822
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: have one hundred and fifty years of amateurism baggage, or

823
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 1: you wouldn't kind of you wouldn't do things the same

824
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: way that we do. So I've sent out a bunch

825
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: of interview requests and I've got through some books, and

826
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: that's something I'm hoping to dig into. I think over

827
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: the next couple of months, I have a couple of

828
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: other stories coming up with some academics who have been

829
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: doing some research about college athletics and the sort of

830
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: things that help you promote athletic achievement and student achievement.

831
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: And you know, if you if you're just curious about

832
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 1: what goes on off the field, and I want to

833
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: under really understand the nuts and bolts that shape this

834
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: business because it is business, then I think you would

835
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: enjoy extra points.

836
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: Well that's cool because we've got a lot of folks

837
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: who listen overseas. So here's hoping that maybe they find

838
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: a new home over an extra points.

839
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: MP's that sounds great. I've been joking as soon as

840
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: I get this vaccine, my sister lives in Sampallo and

841
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to I'm going to go visit her, and

842
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: I want to go start bugging as many people as

843
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: we can to learn more about about what's going on

844
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: with American football down there, and if nothing else, I'll

845
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: get to do it with some better weather than we

846
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: got here.

847
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 2: All right, Matt Brown again, Extra Points is the newsletter

848
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: going for two is the podcast? Come back anytime? Man?

849
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: This is fun. Good to catch up.

850
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always good to chat with you. Next time

851
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: we'll talk about woodworking or something something a little bit less.

852
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: You're a different kind of nerdy, right.

853
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:02,919
Speaker 2: Something I know even less about.

854
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,439
Speaker 1: For sure, we're gonna we're gonna get you into power

855
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: tools one way or another. It's gonna be great.

856
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: All right again, big thanks to our guest of honor

857
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 2: Matt Brown from the Extra Points newsletter. Don't forget. We

858
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: will be back next week. Two more episodes coming your

859
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 2: way on Tuesday and Thursday in the meantime, for myself,

860
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,439
Speaker 2: Ty Hildebrand, for Dan Rubisty, wherever he may be. Thank

861
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 2: you so much for downloading, for listening, for supporting the show.

862
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: Stay healthy, stay happy, Stay solid,