1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You From how Stuff 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about emotional cheating. Yeah, basically, 4 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: when that work spouse we talked about last time, maybe 5 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: things go a little too far. Or you've got a 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: friend that you start confiding in more and more and more, 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: and suddenly that friends starts looking more and more attractive. Yeah, 8 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: but you're not like getting naked together. You're but you're 9 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,319 Speaker 1: just having these long, deep conversations and really connecting and 10 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: confiding and bonding and slowly abandoning your own relationship. I mean, 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,599 Speaker 1: this is such a rich topic to talk about because 12 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: we have um a lot more emotional cheating capabilities than 13 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: we used to thanks to social media, which we'll get into, 14 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: but also because it's one of those areas in long 15 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: term relationships where you have to be so honest with 16 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: yourself because it's easy to make excuses to yourself or 17 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: to your partner, to whomever that Oh no, this isn't 18 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: problematic at all, because it's not like we're kissing, we 19 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: aren't having sex. We're just talking a lot. We're just 20 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: like going to lunch every day. I'm just kind of 21 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: in love with her. Oh no, it's fine. Yeah, I 22 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: mean there's a lot of self preservation delusion that goes 23 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: on during a lot of emotional affairs that keeps them going. Well. 24 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: This is also one of those things that comes up 25 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: all the time in terms of gender and cheating, the 26 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: whole uh assumption that men will be more jealous of 27 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: physical cheating, of someone having sex with another person, whereas 28 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: women are more jealous of emotional affairs. Um. And we'll 29 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: get into that some but let's go ahead and put 30 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: it out there. Do you are are you familiar with 31 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: emotional affairs? Do you know anyone who has had an 32 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: emotional affair? Um? A friend of mine, UM, a very 33 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: good friend of mine was in the danger zone a 34 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: couple of years ago her high school. She's married kids, 35 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: she's been married to the same guy for a long time, 36 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: been with him for for a long time since high school. 37 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: And a previous high school boyfriend resurfaced having some marriage trouble. 38 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: He reaches out to her. They start up like a 39 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: Facebook back and forth. Side note, and we will get 40 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: more into this in a little bit, but Facebook is 41 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: cited in a massive number of divorces. So anyway, I 42 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: knew that I had all my podcasting research in my 43 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: brain as she's telling me about this, and you know, 44 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: she's doing the the total stereotype, like everything's fine, We're 45 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: just talking all the time. This woman with her children, 46 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: with her full time job. She was literally like giving 47 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: up sleep to get into these long drawn out Facebook, email, 48 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: text conversations, not to mention, like on the phone conversations, 49 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: not only like counseling him as he was going through 50 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: this rough patch in his marriage, but like confiding in 51 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: him about a lot of stuff. And I was like, 52 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: you've got to You've got to stop. Like I know 53 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: that you're really happy to be back in touch with 54 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: someone from your past. He was a nice guy back 55 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: when we knew him. That was a long time ago. Um, 56 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: you guys are both married, and you you are confiding 57 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: really personal things in him that he doesn't need to know, frankly, 58 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: and um, she basically said that, well, just you know, 59 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: it feels good to talk talk to someone aside from 60 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: my husband about this stuff. And I mean if I 61 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: could have shown up at her house with like those 62 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: airplane direction wands and be like no, stop, go the 63 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: other way I would have um, and things eventually cooled down. 64 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: Luckily she and her husband are great and fine and 65 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: everything's fine. The other guy, uh, did end up having 66 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: an actual physical affair with someone else, leaving his wife 67 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: and now he's with a woman that he had an 68 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: affair with. Dangerous ound city totally. But yeah, that's that's 69 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: that that dangerous ledge of Like once you start forming 70 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: that intimate bond with someone else and add the excitement 71 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: of someone new, relatively, um, that's a recipe for disaster. 72 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean anecdotally, the emotional cheating that I've 73 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:52,239 Speaker 1: witnessed tends to follow a very similar pattern of reconnecting 74 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: with an ex, whether you sought them out because they're 75 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: troubled waters in your own relationship, or it just happens 76 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: that you two ran into each other, whether offline or online. 77 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: And there's something about those particular kinds of reconnections with 78 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: an X that gets so dangerous so fast, because there 79 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: is that sense of a false sense of intimacy that 80 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: can arise where it's like, oh, I forgot I could 81 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: talk to you like I couldn't talk to anybody else. 82 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: And because as you're telling me this about your friend, 83 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: and how good it felt for her to say some 84 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: of those things to someone other than her husband. The 85 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: first thing I think is, well, where are your friends 86 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: who you didn't date where things couldn't get complicated? I mean, 87 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: she was talking to you. But obviously there's that satisfaction 88 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: that we derive from the attention that that exes can 89 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: give us. Not to say that emotional cheating only happens 90 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: between xes, but I'm just slam. I've seen it happen 91 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah, And I mean that's not to say 92 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: that people can never be friends with their exes. Obviously, 93 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, obviously people can. Um, but that's that's just 94 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: dangerous water. Yeah, well, especially it all it seems to 95 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: hinge on motivation, where it's like if you're suddenly talking 96 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: to your X again and things just so happened to 97 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: be not so healthy at home, might be a red flag. 98 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: Just yeah, practice some self awareness, yeah, check in with yourself. Um. 99 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: So what are the hallmarks then, of emotional affairs versus 100 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: just having a close friendship, Because, like you said, it 101 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: is totally possible to be friends with your exes. If 102 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: you are straight, you should be able to have opposite 103 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: sex friendships ET cetera. But where does that line start 104 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: to get blurry? Well? All right, so here are some 105 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: things that hopefully should serve as an excellent uh blowing 106 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: up of any denial you're in. Um, So you avoid 107 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: telling your significant other about the person and your interactions, 108 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: which that sort of secrecy automatically makes you, guys a united, 109 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: automatically makes things a little more exciting. Uh. Do you 110 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: find yourself getting dressed up for that person, putting on 111 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: a little more makeup, doing your hair a little bit nicer? 112 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: Do you find yourself telling this other person about your day, 113 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: your frustrations, your hopes and dreams, your fears and anger, whatever, 114 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: rather than telling your significant other. And that's an important 115 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: one because a lot of psychologists and researchers that we 116 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: we read their stuff about this. We're saying that when 117 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: you share those deep thoughts and fears and etcetera, that 118 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,679 Speaker 1: breeds this intimacy that can deepen those bonds and can 119 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: lead you, like my friend, to start feeling like perhaps 120 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: this person just gets you more than your significant other does, 121 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: and that would probably open the door to maybe confiding 122 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: in that person about your own relationship to satisfaction. And 123 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: then another moment to check yourself before you wreck yourself 124 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: or your relationship. You start comparing that person to your 125 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: significant other, so essentially like you're building an idealized version 126 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: of whoever this alleged friend is. Yeah, because you're already 127 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: in like total delusion land, it's easy to only see 128 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: the pros of someone rather than the cons as well. Um, 129 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: do you find yourself thinking obsessively about the person and 130 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: if you're like, well, no, I mean, of course, like 131 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: he's funny and like, you know whatever, Or do you 132 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: think obsessively about your friends like you, Caroline? I think 133 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: about you all the time, because I guarantee you, My 134 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: my friend who was going through all that was not 135 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: sitting around her house like obsessively thinking about when the 136 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: next email for me was going to come in. Um, 137 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: because frankly, I don't email that often anyway. Um. And 138 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: the whole thing of like, are you increasingly finding more 139 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: justifications for your behavior or for continuing the relationship? Um? 140 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: When you start feeling really defensive or entitled to this interaction, 141 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: that's probably a bit of a red flag as well. Yeah, 142 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,599 Speaker 1: to pay attention to your own relationship either if you 143 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: need to get out of it, or get it working 144 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: again and get it together together people. UM. On the 145 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: flip side of that, if you are with someone that 146 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: you suspect might be engaged in this kind of emotional cheating, 147 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: what are what are the kinds of things that you 148 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 1: should pay attention to and kind of validate for yourself. Well, 149 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: one thing to pay attention to is are you starting 150 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: to feel crazy? And I don't, I mean, I say 151 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: that sounds really flipped, but like, are you starting to 152 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: feel as though something is just off and something feels wrong. 153 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: Maybe that your your spouse or significant others acting a 154 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:08,239 Speaker 1: little differently and telling you nothing's wrong. That's called gas lighting. Um, 155 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: your gut doesn't lie. And so even if you start 156 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 1: to feel like something's off in your interaction, maybe ask 157 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: ask what's up? Um? And related to that is that 158 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: you sense your partner isn't himself around you. Maybe he 159 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: or she is getting something else from this person that 160 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: he's having an emotional affair with, and he can be 161 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: more playful with that person or more silly or more 162 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: serious whatever it is that he feels for whatever reason 163 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: that he's not getting with you. And then like, have 164 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: you ever been in the situation and this could totally 165 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: be innocent where you're like, well, how is your day, honey, 166 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: and the persons like, uh, I mean, I already told 167 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: Karen all about it. Karen. You're like, Karen, are you 168 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: telling Karen all about your day? I want to hear 169 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: about your day. I'm your person rudest response all your day? Well, 170 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:02,719 Speaker 1: you know what I already told Karen, So I'm sick 171 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: of talking about it. Karen gets me. Just talk to Karen. 172 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: But it's the idea of like, oh, you already told 173 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,719 Speaker 1: someone all about your frustrations and and whatever. You're not 174 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: and you're not confiding in me as much. And another 175 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: big thing is sex feeling detached UM. Diane Gerhardt, who's 176 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: a professor of marriage and family therapy at California State University, 177 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: told read Book magazine in April of that as the 178 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: intensity of the emotional connection with this other person builds, 179 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: it detracts from the emotional connection in your own marriage, 180 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: and that can't help but affect what goes on physically 181 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: and emotionally between you two. So there is a physical 182 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: element to emotional cheating, but it's with your person and 183 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: not this person who um you are becoming attached to 184 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: and if you start noticing that, Let's say, your person 185 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: keeps bringing up Karen comparing, you know, kind of in 186 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: a way of comparing everything you do to what Karen 187 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: does better. You know, like you know, Karen loves uh, 188 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: just loves hot dogs. Karen loves hot dogs. She can 189 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: eat so many of them. Yeah, she's she's basically like 190 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: a competitive food eater. Well yeah, red flag if you ever, 191 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: if your spouse ever talks about a co workers eating abbots, 192 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,719 Speaker 1: you get to that therapist days that, Um, I don't 193 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: know what. On a serious note, I mean, it's those 194 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: kinds of things of you know, person makes a joke 195 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: and maybe you don't laugh, and then your person is like, well, 196 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: Karen thinks I'm funny. God, you know what, Karen, you 197 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: can just well, maybe Karen doesn't know that this is 198 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: going on. Maybe Karen's just like politely laughing. Yeah, maybe 199 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: she's obsessed with Karen. Maybe Karen's oblivion. Maybe we need 200 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: to warn Karen. We gotta talk to Karen. God, I'm sorry, Karen. 201 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: I didn't mean to judge you. Um, but so one 202 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: of my favorite resources in the world is, of course 203 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: a magazine. Of course, you know me, you know it's Sandwiches, 204 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: Corgis and OH magazine and Gail Salts, who's a therapist, 205 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: was writing a column about the danger zone that can 206 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 1: prompt an emotional affair or kind of push you over 207 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: that edge. And three sort of dangerous dangerous activities she 208 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: lists are flirting with other people because you can you 209 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: can get kind of hooked on that that high of 210 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 1: like the attention you get when you're flirting, unless that's 211 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: part of like you and your your person's No, that's good, 212 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: that's good if like you and your person are flirting, well, no, 213 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: I'm saying like, if if you and your person are 214 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: into flirting with other people right, well, but then that 215 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: that requires communication. And the whole thing with emotional infidelity 216 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: is that you're hiding it exactly. So if you are 217 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: flirting with others in an intoxicating, hidden secret fashion, stop 218 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: it uh to innocently spending time alone with old lovers, 219 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: that's that whole denial thing. And three hanging out with 220 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: emotional cheaters who kind of normalize that behavior. This is 221 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: the same thing Kristen and I have talked about before 222 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: when it comes to like kids in smoking or like 223 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: sexual activity from a young age or whatever, Like if 224 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: all your friends are doing it, you know, maybe you're 225 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: still not sure, but if everybody around you is doing it, 226 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: it seems more normal and acceptable, and like, oh, Jim's 227 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: getting away with it. Maybe Karen and I can go 228 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: sneak off and exchange text messages side by side. Yeah. 229 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: I mean in middle school, all my friends were emotionally 230 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: cheating left and right. I couldn't resist. Um, And there's 231 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: that of avoidance factor two. Like you said, I mean 232 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: communication A. I feel like it's the answer to every 233 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: relationship problem, whether not doing it or not doing it effectively. Um, 234 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: if you are avoiding talking about your issues and things 235 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: that you might feel are lacking in your relationship, that 236 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: can definitely backslide into finding someone who can be your 237 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: sounding board. It's hitting those rough patches in your own marriage. 238 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: And you sort of touched on this earlier in the 239 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: episode about you know you're hitting a rough patch. Maybe 240 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: you're feeling lonely or unfulfilled somehow. Um, maybe you're just 241 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: depressed and assumed that this is just how marriage is, 242 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: That there's not good communication and the other person gets 243 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: you less and less, and so rather than communicating with 244 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: your person, your significant other, you seek that fulfillment and 245 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: excitement elsewhere. And what's interesting is that Gayl Salts wrote 246 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: in a magazine that she's actually seeing more emotional infidelity 247 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: these days. A because, she says, we're so used to 248 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: being exposed to sexually suggestive material quote that there's no 249 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: longer an obvious verbal or physical line we think we're crossing. 250 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: So maybe that's that dangerous flirtation of like, stop stop 251 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: flirting with other people. Um. But B she says, we 252 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: are connected with others more than ever before, thanks to 253 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: technology and social media, So it's entirely possible that you 254 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: might have some sort of roster of xs or just 255 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: like people that you're kind of interested in on Facebook 256 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: or Twitter or whatever. Um, that you wouldn't necessarily be 257 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: keeping in mind if you weren't on social media. And 258 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: it's become so common that researchers call it remote and fidelity. Um. 259 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: And hello, here's a statistic that might surprise. Uh. It 260 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: seemed awfully high to me. A Wired magazine reported that 261 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: as many as fort of Tinder users aren't single. Now, granted, 262 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: that would technically include me. For an evening when I 263 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,959 Speaker 1: was out with friends, one of whom was single, you know, 264 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: and so we all got on Tender like in solidarity, 265 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: and it was fun for for an evening. And then 266 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: I realized that my now husband was also on Tender, 267 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, no, we cannot do this. 268 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: He was on He got on Tinder that night. I 269 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,479 Speaker 1: should say he hadn't. I didn't like find him on 270 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: Tinder lore, but I bet that happens, oh totally. Oh 271 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: and and the whole thing too, of online dating relationships 272 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: that start and then you go on some dates and 273 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: you go on to Okay, Cupid or Tinder to shut 274 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: down your account, and then see that they're still active 275 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: and you're like, what's up with this? Come on now? 276 00:17:54,240 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: But Facebook seems to be really the play ground of 277 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: remote infidelity. Yeah, well, because Facebook is supposedly so innocent, 278 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: like oh my gosh, here's like Johnny from middle school. 279 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: Here's Johnny um and like this is fine, right, I'm 280 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,719 Speaker 1: just connecting with old classmates because oh there's Karen and 281 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: Jim and Johnny, this cast of characters. Thanks. Apparently they're 282 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: all like nineteen fifties Bobby Socks, here's or something. But 283 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: you know, Facebook, like your mom's on Facebook, your grandmother's 284 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: on Facebook. What's the heart well? And how often does 285 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: Facebook probably serve up those you might know? Oh god, 286 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: I wonder how many of those are my boyfriend's ex girlfriends, 287 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: because my boyfriend does get like you should be friends 288 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: with and it's like an x of mine and I 289 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: feel they need to apologize. You know, it's not my fault, 290 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: it's Facebook stupid algorithm. But thanks Facebook. So Facebook normalizes 291 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: and sets the expectation that you're going to keep in 292 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: touch with people from your past, and that you're going 293 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: to connect with acquaintances. You know, maybe there's someone who's 294 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 1: caught your eye in the office or whatever. But it's 295 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: totally normal to be Facebook friends, right when, in fact, 296 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: what you might be doing is setting up a back 297 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: burner so that if things turn south or if you 298 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: you know, if you are just kind of dissatisfied, you 299 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: feel like your relationship isn't a slump and your your 300 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: eye starts wandering, you might just innocently enough kind of 301 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: reconnect with some people on social media and have the 302 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: people on the back burner so that you can you 303 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: can leap straight from your old relationship is going down 304 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: into flames into at least someone else's bed, I think. 305 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I have been a back burner. I years ago. Now, 306 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: there was this guy that I was really interested in, 307 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: and we flirted all the time and we talked about 308 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: hanging out, but like it never happened. And it was like, 309 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: why isn't he asking me out? We're both clearly interested 310 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 1: in each other. And I had like broached the subject 311 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 1: of hanging out and kind of never picked up on it. 312 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: But I still was like getting heavily flirted with, so 313 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: like all this cognitive dissonance going on in my head. 314 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: And we finally hung out and he you know, uh, 315 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 1: we were actually playing scrabble. Uh, and he at the 316 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: end of the night, he like dashed right, he like 317 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: ran basically he had to leave really soon. I was 318 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: like all right, ended up seeing him at a Braves game, 319 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: a baseball game with not only a woman, but a 320 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: baby just dropped Yeah, And so I was like, oh, well, um, 321 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: that could explain why he was so weird about like 322 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: why it took so long for us to a go 323 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: on a date, but be why he madly dashed out 324 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: so fast at the end of the night. Um he 325 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: never disclosed that he had a baby. Well, I don't 326 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: even know if it's I don't know what the situation was, 327 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: but no, he didn't disclose any of that, and like, 328 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: clearly it was not his sister. That's all I'm saying, 329 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:05,959 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like this woman was clearly 330 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: not like, oh, I'm in town with my sister. Um 331 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 1: and months and months and months later, you know, I'm 332 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: dating someone else. I'm happy, it's everything's great. And I 333 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: get a Facebook message from dude and he's like, hey, 334 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 1: how's it going. Uh, it looks like you're, you know, 335 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: having a great time and just hope you're still kicking 336 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: ass and blah blah blah blah blah. And I mean 337 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 1: I blocked that guy so fast, like get get out 338 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: of here. And I was telling dude roommate about it, 339 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, yeah, that guy's checking to see 340 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: if you're still on the roster um. And so I'm 341 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: pretty sure, like I was totally a backburner because what 342 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: I'm assuming is that he was so weird because he 343 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: was in a serious relationship, potentially with a child. I 344 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: was not privy to any of that information, but he 345 00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: made sure to remain in touch on Facebook until I 346 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: realized what terrible things were happening. Um, and it's interesting. 347 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: These researchers from the University of Indiana found that men 348 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,239 Speaker 1: tend to have about twice as many back burners on 349 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: Facebook as women do, but it's still a widely practiced 350 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: phenomenon among men and women. Well, and that study also 351 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: cited a separate survey from one Pole which found nearly 352 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: half of all women keep in touch with a quote 353 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: unquote backup husband. Oh man, so we have like our 354 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: work wife, our backup husband. We just got people all 355 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: over the place. And on average, respondents in relationships said 356 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: that they had romantic or sexual conversations with two people 357 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: besides their current partner. How do you I, I don't 358 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: have the mental energy to like a even do that, 359 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: but the like, don't you want to address the problems 360 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: in your relations because that is harder. That takes speaking 361 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: words whereas typing words. You know, we have so much more. Yeah, 362 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: I guess. And and part of this is related to 363 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 1: conversations we've had and lots of articles we've read about 364 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: how supposedly online dating is ruining dating and relationships for 365 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: everyone all the time forever. Um. Yeah, well yeah, but 366 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: the theory is that now dating is like the wild West, 367 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: and you have so many options available to you that 368 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: you never have to settle because there's always fifty more 369 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: people in line on tender Okay, Cupid or whatever that 370 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: if you're fed up with someone, rather than working on it, 371 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: you could easily just find the next handsome woman or 372 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: man on on an online dating site. But I wonder 373 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: if people would be discouraged from doing that if they 374 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: knew how, you know, other, how how widespread that is, 375 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like you're not special 376 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: for having a roster of back burners because for all 377 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: you know, your back burner considers you a back burner, 378 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: and and that's not sexy. No, that is not sexy. 379 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: But the whole availability of options thing is a factor 380 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: that researchers and psychologists site in terms of these emotional 381 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 1: infidelity issues and even sexual infidelities, so not just emotional 382 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: stuff but affairs in general, that if you perceive there 383 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: to be this huge network of available people, you are 384 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: more likely, if you're already predisposed, whether it's because of 385 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: relationship problems or whatever, you're more likely to partake well. 386 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: And complicating matters too, is how we tend to curate 387 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: our social media presences. So we're showing how fabulous our 388 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: life is, how interesting we are. And so that probably 389 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: adds to the idealizing aspect of a lot of this 390 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: emotional cheating too, because it's like, oh, my god, look 391 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: at her. She's on a boat. Then she's eating she's 392 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: eating so many well plated meals, and there's a parade 393 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: that she went to. What a cultured Jim. I forgot 394 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: about Karen Karen and her parades? My god. Um. Well, 395 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: moving aside, how technology facilitates this, we need to unpeel 396 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: some of the psychological layers that keep us going back 397 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: to these kinds of dangerous relationships. So we've taken away 398 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: all of your excuses and your deniability about like, oh, 399 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: where's his friends? So you know better now Karen Karen, Jim, 400 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 1: we're looking at Johnny, Johnny susan um. So despite knowing 401 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: all of this stuff, it can be hard if you're 402 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: wrapped up in it, to stop, to just stop, even 403 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: if you're like I am threatening my marriage. This is 404 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: a bad idea, someone could find out. But it just 405 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: feels so good. What why are people not stopping? It 406 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: is so addictive and the thing is, as Athena stike 407 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: Over at psych Central wrote about in twelve, it's less 408 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: about how special this other person is and more about 409 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: the neurochemicals that reward us in communicating with that person. Yeah, 410 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: I mean, because we already talked earlier about how you know, Oh, 411 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 1: it just it just feels good and it's secretive and 412 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: it's exciting, especially if you're understimulated, if you feel understimulated 413 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: in your own relationship and Stike sites Craig Naked, who 414 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: wrote The Addictive Personality Understanding the Addictive Process and Compule 415 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 1: of Behavior, and he says that addiction is quote, a 416 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: pathological love and trust relationship with an object, person or event. 417 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: It's the out of control and aimless searching for wholeness, happiness, 418 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: and peace through a relationship with an object or event. 419 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: And clearly that can apply to when you're filling that 420 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: gaping emotional hole with alcohol, when you are abusing drugs, 421 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: when you're shopping obsessively, but that can also apply to 422 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: all of those happy chemicals flooding your brain when you're 423 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: having a secret emotional affair. So what Naked says is 424 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: that we derive pleasure from numbing the pain shame or 425 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: guilt because we've distanced ourselves from taking responsibility for issues 426 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: happening in our relationships that have led us to this point. Because, 427 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: after all, I R L relationships that we care about 428 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: carry the rest of pain and failure and have ups 429 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: and downs. Everybody goes through rough patches. But if a 430 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: person chooses to stray from their relationship, are their predictable 431 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: differences in whether men and women are going to get 432 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 1: physical with someone else or get more emotional. Well, so 433 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: the stereotype is that women are going to have the 434 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: emotional affairs, but they're also going to be more upset 435 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: if their partner has an emotional affair, whereas men are 436 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: going to get physical and they're also angrier when their 437 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: partner has a physical sexual affair with someone else. And 438 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: this has been looked at up, down, and sideways according 439 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: to gender sexuality, sexual identity, gender identity, um all of 440 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: these different factors. And it's not that actual studies haven't 441 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: supported the assert and that men, you know, hate sexual 442 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: affairs more and women hate emotional affairs, but there's a 443 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: lot of disagreement over why that particular stereotype might be 444 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: the case for some people. So there was this two 445 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: thousand two article from the American Psychological Association's Monitor magazine 446 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: that reads, to me anyway like the most boring, hilarious 447 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: academic cat fight, because it pits evolutionary biology theorists against 448 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: people who are like, can we leave off with the 449 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: cave men and women who are fighting with each other 450 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: in the caves and just deal with like the emotional 451 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,239 Speaker 1: and neurochemical things that are going on? So tell me 452 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: more well. So. The evo bio explanation for why a 453 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: man might be more upset about physical cheating and a 454 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: woman might be more upset about emotional cheating is that 455 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: they argue, uh, we have evolved with special sensitivities to 456 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: the type of infidelity that threatens us most. So in 457 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: this theory, men are more concerned about sexual infidelity because 458 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: of the risk of inadvertently raising another man's child paternity 459 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: uncertainty exactly, whereas women, they say, are more concerned about 460 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: emotional infidelity because of the threat of losing their mates 461 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: support in raising those children. And so they see the 462 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: malemates emotional engagement with another woman as a sign that 463 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: he's about to pack those caveman suitcases and head out 464 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: of the cave just somebody else's cave. It's not a euphemism, 465 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: and that triggers jealousy. But there's also an interesting dynamic 466 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: when it comes to what men and women, and we're 467 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: talking in of course binary and heteronormative terms here, um, 468 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: when we are discussing these cave people, Uh, there's some 469 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: interesting dynamics about assumptions that men and women are making 470 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: about each other. Researchers found that men assume that emotional 471 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: infidelity is happening in conjunction with sexual infidelity. They just 472 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: assume they're happening together because and this is in very 473 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: stereotypical broadbrush terms, but men are more likely to believe 474 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: that women are not going to get sexually involved with 475 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: someone they're not emotionally connecting with, whereas women are more 476 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: likely to assume that men are just having a sexual 477 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: affair that doesn't necessarily involve emotions. So that's what the 478 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: evolutionary biologists claim. But then of course we have these 479 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: other researchers who take a look at the methodology and say, okay, 480 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: these are all based on forced choice surveys, where it's like, 481 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: if pretend that someone's shooting on you, would you rather um, 482 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: and they say that that produces false results and that 483 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: it also glosses over individual circumstances. Is clearly like you said, 484 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it's talking in very broadbrush terms. There is 485 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: no nuance to that whatsoever. And it also claims that 486 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: sex differences vanish when you remove the need to pick 487 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: one or the other and have participants focus on a 488 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: separate task while being asked the question. So you're kind 489 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: of like distracting your brain in an effort to probably 490 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: like get that gut response yes of like what makes 491 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: you feel terrible inside? Fold these clothes, now tell me 492 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: your thoughts on affairs. Laundry um. Actually I love laundry um. 493 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: But they found that when you are like waving a 494 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: shiny set of keys in front of somebody as you 495 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: ask them the question, everyone man, woman, straight, gay, bisexual, whoever, 496 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: everybody is more upset about sexual infidelity when you just 497 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: don't stop to think about it. I buy that. I 498 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: totally buy that too, because it almost takes a minute 499 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: longer if you're speaking in gut terms, It almost takes 500 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: a minute longer to process like, wait, you have deep 501 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: feelings for someone, versus like, oh, you were naked together 502 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: like that took no time at all, whereas this emotional 503 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: relationship you would imagine is like a slow build. Well, 504 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: in speaking of feelings, this jives with the results of 505 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: a study from two thousand four in Personality and Social 506 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: Psychology Bullotan, which found that sexual infidelity is more associated 507 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: with anger and blame, whereas emotional infidelity tends to spark 508 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: hurt feelings. So if we have these like sharper reactions 509 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: to sexual infidelity, it makes sense that when the keys 510 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: are being shaken in front of our faces, where like 511 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: don't sleep with other people, know that amygdala is like 512 00:33:53,320 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: how dare you um? Whereas like creating that like intimate 513 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: relationship with someone else that might not be physical can 514 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: be devastating because the other person might be sitting there saying, 515 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: I've been wanting you to talk to me about those things. 516 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm I'm here right, and I mean either one can 517 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,919 Speaker 1: shake the foundation of your own identity, like, oh my god, 518 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: I have formed this identity as your partner and as 519 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: someone who loves you, and here you are telling me 520 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: that I'm somehow not good enough, whether it's good enough 521 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: sexually or good enough emotionally, Like that can really obviously 522 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: do a number on you. Um. And there was a 523 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: fourteen study in the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy 524 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: that looked at not only gender identity but also sexual orientation, 525 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,280 Speaker 1: and they found that across all of these factors, again, 526 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 1: sexual infidelity elicited more distress than emotional infidelity, but women 527 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 1: and straight people on the whole had stronger emotions about 528 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: both sexual and emotional infidelity than men in and lesbian 529 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: and gay people in this survey. It's very interesting, So 530 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: everybody's real upset about infidelity, but women and straight people 531 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: are apparently more upset on the whole. Well, and there 532 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: was a more recent study that came out in January 533 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: and the Archives of Sexual Behavior, which found that while 534 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: more straight men were upset over sexual infidelity than emotional infidelity, 535 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: and straight women were more upset over emotional infidelity, bisexual 536 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: men and women didn't really differ, I mean like across 537 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: the board. And ditto for lesbians and gay men. It's like, 538 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: regardless of who they might have been with, they just 539 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: weren't down with any kind of cheating. Is that kind 540 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: of what what they were finding. Whereas there's something about 541 00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: straight people where we are more maybe it could be 542 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: that we're more threatened by alternative arrangements. I'm wondering, you know, 543 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that like oh, you're bisexual, so 544 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: you're tolerant of cheating, or like oh you're a gay man, 545 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: so you're like cool with your partner having multiple partners, 546 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: like your alternative lifestyle. Yeah, I'm totally That's not what 547 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: I'm insinuating. But what I am saying is that perhaps 548 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: if you are part of that like super heteronormative mainstream, 549 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: you've been force fed these ideas about what marriage and 550 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 1: relationships are supposed to be. And they're supposed to be 551 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: your true love, your soul mate, they are supposed to 552 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: be everything to you, your best friend, your accountant, in 553 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: your lawnmower. Um, all of these things wrapped up in 554 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: one and perhaps LGBTQ people have had to imagine up 555 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: until you know, we're finally seeing marriage equality, have had 556 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: to envision alternate possibilities for their relationships. I don't know. 557 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: I mean that that's that's a theory, and I would 558 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: think attached to that as well are the normative gender 559 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: roles that are hitched to our heteronormative straight relationship scripts, 560 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: where it's you know, you have the men who are 561 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: supposed to be the accountants of the lawnmowers. You know, 562 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: like guys are supposed to provide one thing and women 563 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: are supposed to provide another. You know, men are supposed 564 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: to be the breadwinners. Women cook the bread. They toast 565 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: the bread. I don't know, the bread, they do all 566 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 1: the bread things. Um. And there's also the the idea 567 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: to that masculinity equals more aggressive, anger is more acceptable, 568 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: and and they want sex all the time, right, So 569 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: there is a lot of there. Like you said, there's 570 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: a lot of gender norm stuff, baggage and reactions wrapped 571 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: up in the survey results. It sounds like a lot 572 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: of straight folks in these studies are operating out of 573 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: stereotypical whole assumptions and maybe not really communicating well with 574 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: each other. I don't know. Yeah, I mean I think 575 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: that this also gets into the need for not just 576 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: communicating about relationship be things with your partner, but being 577 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: able to communicate obviously about sexual and expectations and boundaries. 578 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: You know. Um, so what kind of real talk do 579 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,399 Speaker 1: you need to have if emotional infidelity is happening? How 580 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: do you how do you fix it. Well. So a 581 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 1: lot of this is advice coming from Gale Salts again. 582 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: But the first thing you want to do is take responsibility. 583 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: Don't try to live in denial land. We're like, no, 584 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,760 Speaker 1: we're just friends. Stop it, and don't blame any infidelity 585 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: or like emotional cheating or anything on your partner. Don't 586 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: turn around and be like, well, if you would just 587 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,839 Speaker 1: mow the lawn more, or if you had just brought 588 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 1: me some chicken home from the grocery store, I would 589 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: not have done this. No, be be an adult, be 590 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: a grown up, and responsibility for your actions and also 591 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: ended hello. No, you cannot stay friends and keep the 592 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: person in your life. We're on your Facebook account if 593 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 1: you have committed emotional infidelity with them and you want 594 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,439 Speaker 1: to keep your significant other. It's different if you guys 595 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: are breaking up. And the kind of brutal honesty that 596 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: a lot of therapists recommended these situations where I mean 597 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: you have to come out, you know, and ask the 598 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: questions you need to ask, be straightforward about what's going on, 599 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: which can which can hurt for sure. Um. But that's 600 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: also where we can look to people who are in 601 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: successful open relationships or polyamorous relationships and learn some lessons 602 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: because these people have emotional and physical relationships with people 603 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: outside of a primary unit, and they operate within an 604 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: environment of radical honesty and even uh compulsion, which is 605 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: a feeling of happiness when your partner finds someone that 606 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: they like and maybe want to have sex with. I didn't. 607 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: I don't think I knew there was a word for that. Yeah, 608 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: there is. That's more within like the polyamory lexicon um. 609 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: And while I'm not saying that the answer is for 610 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,879 Speaker 1: everyone to open up their relationships, but I'm saying like 611 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,359 Speaker 1: those kinds of it's not about the sex, I guess 612 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: is what I'm trying to say is that there can 613 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 1: be perfectly healthy and happy, satisfying long term relationships that 614 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 1: don't that don't require monogamy, because what we require ultimately 615 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:48,760 Speaker 1: is honest communication, right exactly. And so when your partner 616 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: has had an emotional affair and your relationships not open, 617 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: and that's not going to fly, and hopefully you guys 618 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,479 Speaker 1: have already communicated about your wants, needs and expectations around 619 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: monogamy or not. Um. You know, like Kristin said, there 620 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: are some tough questions and and and you know it's 621 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,399 Speaker 1: best to stay away from the gritty nitty gritty details. Uh, 622 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, and that's especially if there's been sexual infidelity. 623 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: But you know, asking your partner, what are you getting 624 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: from this interaction? UM? You know, have I done something? Uh? 625 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: Is there something that you've wanted to talk to me about? 626 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: Is there something you're not getting from our relationship? You know, 627 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 1: is your self esteem or your sense of self suffering? Um, 628 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 1: and take heart that it doesn't have to be the 629 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: end of your relationship unless you want it to be right, 630 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: and you can right. You can rebuild it obviously takes 631 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: a lot of time, openness and accountability. UM. There will 632 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: be tears and possibly some panic attacks. But if you 633 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 1: guys are dedicated to working through those difficult patches, then 634 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: I think a better, more open communication relationship is on 635 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: the other side of that. UM. Also, thank you for 636 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: giving me the name of my memoir, which will be 637 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: there will be tears and panic attacks. Keep an eye 638 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,839 Speaker 1: out for that and in your local bookstore friends. UM, well, 639 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 1: is it time I think to to talk to listeners. 640 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: We want to hear from you about this issue because, UM, 641 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: I think it's super common and I think it's super 642 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: common for people to hide it away, and um, it's 643 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 1: something that we we need to be more aware of 644 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: and be more comfortable talking about. Because the thing is 645 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: humans are fallible. People are attracted to more than one 646 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: person a lot of times, and rough patches happen. Stress, 647 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: can you know, be devastating to a relationship. So we 648 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,479 Speaker 1: just we just need to be communicating more. We need 649 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: to be honest, stop trying to be so perfect, right 650 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: and and and block those shady x is on Facebook. Seriously, 651 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: you know who you are, So with that, send us 652 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,240 Speaker 1: your letters. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com 653 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: is where you can send them. Uh. We will as 654 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: always respect your anonymity. If you would prefer that for 655 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: a more sensitive topic like this, or if you just 656 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 1: want to shout it out to the world, you can 657 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 1: tweet us at mom Stuff Podcasts or message us on 658 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,919 Speaker 1: Facebook and we've got a couple of messages to share 659 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 1: with you right now. All right, Well, speaking of relationships, 660 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,759 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Amy in response to 661 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:52,720 Speaker 1: our lesbian bed death episode. Uh, she says, I blah 662 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 1: blah blah. She says, as a queer SIS woman, my 663 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 1: friends and I have often joked about the bed death 664 00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,879 Speaker 1: thing and one of my favorite images when it's meant 665 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,479 Speaker 1: and comes from Rick and Steve. This amazing short lived 666 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 1: cartoon that was on Logo for a while where Kirsten 667 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,719 Speaker 1: and Dana, the perfect lesbian couple, one is butch, one 668 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: is fem they want a baby, etcetera, etcetera, attend the 669 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: funeral for the bed of their friends Ebony and Ivory. 670 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: Seriously hilarious, but in all seriousness. My spouse and I 671 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: have chatted about this a lot because having now been 672 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,240 Speaker 1: together for five years, married for nearly two and trying 673 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: to make a baby least sexy process ever for queer 674 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 1: folks and so incredibly invasive and that's an episode for you, 675 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: and trying out new medications, our sex life has dwindled substantially. 676 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: We ask ourselves whether we mind, and the answer most 677 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: of the time is no. I think being raised female 678 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: and being allowed to access our emotions more readily than 679 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,840 Speaker 1: many sisth straatement are quote allowed. We are able to 680 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,319 Speaker 1: find intimacy in ways other than through sex. We talk, 681 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: we kiss, we cuddle it, we flirt. We're touching like 682 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: all of the time, and it's almus fin as a 683 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: big part of that intimate urge and need that having 684 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: been in a quote straight relationship previously, I would have 685 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,320 Speaker 1: only felt that I had to have sex to satisfy. 686 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: Many of my friends expressed similar feelings about the lack 687 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: of what we typically consider sex in our relationships. Intimacy 688 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: and closeness are achieved in so many other ways just 689 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: by being in touch with our connections to our partners 690 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: that just because we don't necessarily orgasm while engaging in 691 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 1: intimacy doesn't mean we're missing out on some essential part 692 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: of our relationships. Sex is great, but what is the 693 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 1: goal in the end. If it is closeness and eroticism 694 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: and intimacy, then I get it all night long. Folks. Well, 695 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,319 Speaker 1: thank you Amy, and good luck and congrats on the 696 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: baby making. Well, I've got to let her hear from Elia, 697 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: who writes, I'm a pan sexual person that came out 698 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,840 Speaker 1: from a previous relationship with a man for ten years. 699 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: My fiance is the first woman I've been with, and 700 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,480 Speaker 1: while I got into it not knowing a thing about 701 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: real female same sex physical relationships, I have to say 702 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: this is the best sex I've ever had. We just 703 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,280 Speaker 1: passed year three and things are every bit as spicy 704 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: as before. Yes, we do it much much less, but 705 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,359 Speaker 1: if anything, we are enjoying each other more as we 706 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 1: explore and create a safe space to try all sorts 707 00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,239 Speaker 1: of things. Entering year four, I feel confident it will 708 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,400 Speaker 1: stay strong. Well. I'm so happy to hear that, Ilia 709 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,919 Speaker 1: and everybody else who want to hear from you too, Mom. 710 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email 711 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 1: address and for links to all of our social media 712 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 1: as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts 713 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 1: with our sources. So you can learn more about emotional cheating. 714 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,439 Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot 715 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:45,920 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 716 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:55,240 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com