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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the whitetail Woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile

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Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light

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Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by doctor Craig Harper to discuss

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Speaker 2: his perspective on how we can manage our hunting properties

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Speaker 2: to benefit the greatest number of species in the greatest

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Speaker 2: number of ways. All right, welcome back to another episode

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Speaker 2: of the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by

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Speaker 2: First Light in their cameo for conservation initiative. You're probably familiar,

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Speaker 2: but if you're not, a portion of every sale of

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Speaker 2: First Light's whitetail gear is donated back to the National

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Speaker 2: Old Deer Association to help them with their mission to

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Speaker 2: make things better for deer, deer hunters and deer hunting

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Speaker 2: well into the future. Big fan of that one and

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Speaker 2: today's guest I am also a big fan of. We

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Speaker 2: are joined today by the one and only doctor Craig Harper.

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Speaker 2: He is a professor of Wildlife Management and the extension

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Speaker 2: wildlife specialist in the School of Natural Resources at the

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Speaker 2: University of Tennessee. He is also the recient recipient of

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Speaker 2: the let me make sure you get this right the

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Speaker 2: Deer Management Career Achievement Award from the Southeast Deer Study Group.

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Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one, he was given the National Deer

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Speaker 2: Association's Lifetime Achievement Award. He's the author of multiple books,

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Speaker 2: books that a whole lot of habitat managers rave about,

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Speaker 2: many many published studies, and he's just simply one of

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Speaker 2: the foremost authorities and one of the best communicators when

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Speaker 2: it comes to deer management, wildlife, habitat management, and so

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Speaker 2: so many things that folks like you and I are

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Speaker 2: interested in. Craig is is truly the best of the

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Speaker 2: best of the best, and I'm thrilled that he's here

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Speaker 2: with me today to discuss a topic that we have

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Speaker 2: been exploring kind of meandering along the way throughout this

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Speaker 2: month during Habitat Month. One of those main themes that

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Speaker 2: I've brought up with a lot of folks that brought

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Speaker 2: this up with Doug, brought this up with Thomas, and

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Speaker 2: we definitely talk here today with Craig is this idea

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Speaker 2: of how can we do more with our properties. How

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Speaker 2: can we look beyond the simple, you know, throw a

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Speaker 2: bag of food plot see in the ground and grow

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Speaker 2: food plot and shoot a bigger buck. That's great. I

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Speaker 2: enjoy that too, But there's got to be more we

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Speaker 2: can do. There's probably a bigger impact we can have

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Speaker 2: beyond that if we just widen our view a little bit.

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Speaker 2: And today Craig helps us explore that theme in those

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Speaker 2: topics really in a terrific way. He's wise, he has

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Speaker 2: a tremendous amount of experience in these in these topics,

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Speaker 2: he's able to kind of recenter me in some places.

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Speaker 2: He's able to folks me in certain places and not

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Speaker 2: just focus me, focus us, I think in some very

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Speaker 2: valuable ways. So we're going to talk through everything from

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Speaker 2: you know, managing for better cover on your property, to

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Speaker 2: discussions around native versus invasive species and how to be

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Speaker 2: realistic and what we can do with that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 2: why we might want to do that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 2: What types of projects will help our white tail deer,

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Speaker 2: what kind of projects will help our turkeys, rough grouse,

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Speaker 2: bob white quail, insects, birds, the whole gamut. We're going

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Speaker 2: to discuss it this is one of the best Habitat

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Speaker 2: related podcasts we've had in a while, and I'm just

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Speaker 2: very excited that you guys get to listen to it

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Speaker 2: or watch it if you're over on YouTube. So with

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Speaker 2: that said, I think we should just get to my

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Speaker 2: chat today with doctor Craig Harper. All right here with

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Speaker 2: me now, is mister Craig Harper. Craig, thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for joining me.

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Speaker 3: No, I am Martin glad to be here with you.

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Speaker 3: While since since we.

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Speaker 2: Talked, I know, I know. I actually went back to

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Speaker 2: try to find when it was that I last had

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Speaker 2: you on the show, and it shocked me how long

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Speaker 2: it's been. I don't know how I've managed to make

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Speaker 2: the mistake of not trying to rope you into one

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Speaker 2: of these sooner, but it wasn't It's been since twenty sixteen, Craig.

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Speaker 3: Wow, eight years. I wouldn't have guessed it had been

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Speaker 3: that long.

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Speaker 2: No, it's it's gone very fast. It's I don't know

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Speaker 2: if it's because I've had kids in the interim, but

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Speaker 2: everything seems to be just flying by this last five, six,

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Speaker 2: seven years.

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Speaker 3: So well, I'm sure eight years ago when I was

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Speaker 3: with you, I had more hair, and it was darker

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Speaker 3: than it is now.

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Speaker 2: So I've seen worse, Craig, I've seen worse. You're doing

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Speaker 2: all right, and I gotta give you special thanks for

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Speaker 2: making time to do this, because we were exchanging emails

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Speaker 2: ahead of this, and you had told me that you

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Speaker 2: were just ret turning from several weeks in the back country,

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Speaker 2: so you must be exhausted and coming off of a

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Speaker 2: heck of an adventure.

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Speaker 3: Huh, well not really. It was a lot of fun,

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Speaker 3: but uh, you know, I kept up. It's the part

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Speaker 3: that drags you down is I was in New Mexico

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Speaker 3: for a couple of weeks, but then upon returning, I

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Speaker 3: had to to go to West Virginia, and then I

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Speaker 3: had to go to West Tennessee, and so it's it's

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Speaker 3: been four weeks of back to back to back to back,

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Speaker 3: you know, solid being gone, and so I think I've

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Speaker 3: been home one day now, and it's it's impossible to

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Speaker 3: catch up after all that time in the day, but

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Speaker 3: I'm plugging away trying to get back at it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the one downside of travel is that you

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Speaker 2: get that whole of emails that you can never dig

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Speaker 2: your way back out of.

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Speaker 3: Even if it's even if it's vacation. I mean you

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Speaker 3: you sit there and it's almost like excruciating, no, and

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Speaker 3: what's building up, you know, this mountain of emails and

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Speaker 3: phone calls and everything else. That. Man, it's just if

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Speaker 3: you don't keep up with it to the best of

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Speaker 3: your ability. Uh, it's it's insufferable. But when I was

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Speaker 3: in New Mexico, we were in the back country. We

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Speaker 3: were away from everything, in a wilderness area, and after

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Speaker 3: about day four, I finally quit worrying about not being

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Speaker 3: able to keep up with stuff. You know, you know

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Speaker 3: I can't. There is no service, Uh, there is nothing,

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Speaker 3: no power, no running water. We did have access to

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Speaker 3: one spiccot, but you know, a couple of weeks in

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Speaker 3: the back country, no showers and cooking over fire and

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Speaker 3: that kind of thing. So you know, after a while

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Speaker 3: you get into it. It's like, man, this is really

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Speaker 3: nice where I don't have the constant distraction of you know,

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Speaker 3: the day to day calls and the emails and everything

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Speaker 3: that comes in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't beat that. I remember reading a few

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Speaker 2: years ago about something called the three day effect, I think, uh,

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Speaker 2: in which a series of actual studies had shown that

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Speaker 2: it's on day three, at the end of day three

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Speaker 2: when the body starts showing quantifiable physiological changes to that,

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Speaker 2: you know, separation from the phone and the internet and

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Speaker 2: work like it takes that much time to fully disconnect

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Speaker 2: and recalibrate, and then there's all these huge benefits to

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Speaker 2: to your psyche and everything once you're fully immersed.

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Speaker 3: And totally believe that that was my experience for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm jealous. I've not had several weeks in

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Speaker 2: the back country, but I could use it. And I'm

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Speaker 2: glad you're back though, and willing to do this and

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Speaker 2: for you know, to be respectful your time. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to ask you to give me the whole roundabout

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Speaker 2: resume and explanation of what you've done the past, because

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Speaker 2: most folks have been following you and are aware of that,

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Speaker 2: and I've introduced you already, so I want to kind

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Speaker 2: of drop you and drop us right into the meat

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Speaker 2: and potatoes of this world I've been exploring over the

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Speaker 2: past month or so of folks, and I want to

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Speaker 2: open with a challenge. I guess that I was faced

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Speaker 2: by something I read from you. I was reading in

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Speaker 2: one of your books that the idea that you can

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Speaker 2: just manage for wildlife is a false one and a

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Speaker 2: bad path to take. And I was challenged by that

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Speaker 2: because I've been trying to in my own kind of

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Speaker 2: path as a wildlife manager and deer manager. I've thought

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Speaker 2: to myself it might be better to step away from

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Speaker 2: managing just for deer and to instead take a larger

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Speaker 2: managing for wildlife or managing for the ecosystem perspective. And

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Speaker 2: I've been kind of exploring all that. But then I

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Speaker 2: read your piece and said, you can't do that. You

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Speaker 2: can't just manage for a while life. You need to

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Speaker 2: pick a focal specie because managing for wildlife is too ambiguous,

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Speaker 2: And so I guess I wanted to hear a little

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Speaker 2: bit more from you on that as a starting point.

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Speaker 2: Was I interpreting that correctly? Do you believe that managing

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Speaker 2: for wildlife is kind of a false premise and too

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Speaker 2: ambiguous of a goal to have.

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Speaker 3: Well. Where that came from is where I have given

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Speaker 3: presentations helping people come up with their property and wildlife

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Speaker 3: management plans. And it doesn't matter if you're a private

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Speaker 3: individual or you know a biologist that works with a

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Speaker 3: state agency. It's a very very common thing for us

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Speaker 3: to say, our objective is wildlife. And what I was

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Speaker 3: trying to clarify is that that term wildlife is too

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Speaker 3: ambiguous to plan for. That you need to at least

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Speaker 3: identify a species or suite of species that you're interested in,

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Speaker 3: because you cannot manage for everything. There's too many species

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Speaker 3: that have very very different habitat requirements, you know, specific

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Speaker 3: items of food, resources, cover resources, water resources, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And so you'll hear somebody say, yeah, our objective for

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Speaker 3: the property is wildlife, and that's when I say, well,

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Speaker 3: let's try to be a little more precise in what

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Speaker 3: we're talking about, because wildlife in this sense is too general. Now,

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Speaker 3: when you mentioned managing for deer, what I try to

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Speaker 3: bring out to people very commonly, and this has really

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Speaker 3: come about through some studies that we've finished and worked

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Speaker 3: on through the years, is deer is known as a

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Speaker 3: quote generalist species. You know, at least in the Eastern US,

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Speaker 3: the two most common wildlife species that people manage their

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Speaker 3: proberty for is deer in wild turkeys. And it just

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Speaker 3: so happens that both of those are considered generalists, meaning

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Speaker 3: that you find them in a wide range of landscapes.

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Speaker 3: You could be in very open landscapes and totally close

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Speaker 3: canopy forest landscapes and a mixture of everything in between,

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Speaker 3: and you're going to find deer in turkeys in all

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Speaker 3: of those and so they don't have some specialized requirements

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Speaker 3: like say a grassland obligate songbird does, or a forest

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Speaker 3: interior songbird, for example, and you don't find them anywhere else.

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Speaker 3: And what I've tried to do is use whitetail deer

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Speaker 3: in particular, but turkeys also to try and manage for

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Speaker 3: other species, because at least in my opinion, in my

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Speaker 3: professional opinion, if you're managing whitetail deer to the best

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Speaker 3: of your ability, that means that you're going to have

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Speaker 3: a wide variety of vegetation types, a wide variety of

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Speaker 3: successional stages available to them. Because although deer do not

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Speaker 3: have to do not have to have any one vegetation

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Speaker 3: type or successional stage in order to have a robust population,

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Speaker 3: their populations generally are more robust and with better body

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Speaker 3: condition if you have a variety of vegetation types and

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Speaker 3: successional stages, because then you're going to have different types

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Speaker 3: of food and different types of cover that are available

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Speaker 3: and make survival and body condition better through the year.

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Speaker 3: And so then when you are doing that, you then

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Speaker 3: by default are providing habitat for species that most landowners

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Speaker 3: don't know anything about and may not care anything about.

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Speaker 3: And that may be shrubbling songbirds, it might be grassland

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Speaker 3: songbirds or forest obligates. Obviously non game and other game

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Speaker 3: species as well. So I think whitetailed deer and wild

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Speaker 3: turkeys are unique and that a lot of people manage

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Speaker 3: for them, and not many people manage for some of

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Speaker 3: these non game species. But if we enable them teach

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Speaker 3: them to manage their properties better for deer in turkeys,

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Speaker 3: than by default they're making their properties better for a

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Speaker 3: whole lot of other species.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be fair to say that that managing

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Speaker 2: for deer or turkey kind of acts like a gateway drug,

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Speaker 2: in that if you're able to get in the door

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Speaker 2: because you're incentivized to have better deer hunting or better

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Speaker 2: turkey hunting, that might be the thing that opens you

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Speaker 2: to the room of possibilities, which might be helping these

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Speaker 2: other critters out, helping these songbirds out, improving your grasslands

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Speaker 2: for this species or that species or whatever it might be,

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Speaker 2: that you would never ever that would never enter the

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Speaker 2: realm of possibilities unless it's worth for the fact that

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Speaker 2: you were originally incentivized to improve your hunting opportunities.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yes, I believe that one. Certainly, when you get

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Speaker 3: into what you might call a more holistic approach to

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Speaker 3: managing property for white tail deer, you know, and you

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Speaker 3: can add turkeys in there if you won't, there's no

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Speaker 3: question that you gain a greater appreciation for the various

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Speaker 3: plants that you will then see and for the different

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Speaker 3: species of wildlife that will be occurring on the property.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of the things that I've been curious about,

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Speaker 2: and that I've been spending a lot of time reading

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Speaker 2: into and trying to learn more about, is how you

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Speaker 2: know sickle coal or how connected everything is on a landscape.

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Speaker 2: And so if we want quality deer hunting or quality

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Speaker 2: turkey hunting, it might behoove us to care about those

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Speaker 2: other things too, that native vegetation, the songbirds, the insects,

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Speaker 2: the pollinators, et cetera, because that all of these things

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Speaker 2: end up touching each other in one way or another. Right,

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Speaker 2: And while I think it's fair to say that we

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Speaker 2: are living very likely in the golden days of deer hunting.

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Speaker 2: You know that's not necessarily the case for a lot

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Speaker 2: of other species on the landscape. I think I'm preaching

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Speaker 2: the choir here when I talk about the decline and

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Speaker 2: birds across the North America three billion fewer birds now

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Speaker 2: than fifty years ago. I know you've done research a

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Speaker 2: lot on bob whit kwail grouse right significant declines in

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Speaker 2: both of those species. Forty four percent of insects are

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Speaker 2: threatened with extinction in the relatively near term future. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot of things that aren't doing so well right now,

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Speaker 2: and I've I've thought to myself that there's this unique

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Speaker 2: opportunity that we, the deer hunters of America have, and

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Speaker 2: that we own land for wildlife and recreation. We're pretty

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Speaker 2: well armed with education and tools to manage the landscape,

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Speaker 2: and we're incentivized to do so because we want better

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Speaker 2: deer hunter better turkey hunting. If we do those things

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Speaker 2: with a slightly wider aperture, we very well might be

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Speaker 2: able to stem the losses of all these other things too.

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Speaker 2: Is that is that a step too far? Am I

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Speaker 2: having delusions of grandeur? Or could we save the world.

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Speaker 2: For lack of a better phrase.

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Speaker 3: I don't know that we'll save the world, but I

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Speaker 3: definitely think we can make it a better place. How's

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Speaker 3: that not just for us in achieving our immediate objectives

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Speaker 3: or goals, but also for all of these other wildlife

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Speaker 3: species and many plants. As you mentioned, we just finished

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Speaker 3: a series of projects looking at field management techniques and

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Speaker 3: how different field management techniques impacted deer, turkeys, grassland song birds,

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Speaker 3: shrubbling song birds, several different species, and pollinators as well.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things that we found is the

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Speaker 3: great increase in plants for pollinators when you manage fields

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Speaker 3: more opriately, I would say for deer, as opposed to

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Speaker 3: just having fields dominated by grasses, and so by reducing

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Speaker 3: the amount of grass coverage and increasing the amount of

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Speaker 3: forb coverage, you have by default increased resources for pollinators

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Speaker 3: and lots of other insects. And it's interesting to see

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Speaker 3: the close tie that so many insects and other invertebrates

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Speaker 3: have with the forb community as opposed to the grass community.

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Speaker 3: Not to say that grasses won't support some they certainly do,

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Speaker 3: but you will see larger populations and more diverse species

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Speaker 3: or groups of species assemblages in these areas that have

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Speaker 3: a much greater FORB component than a field dominated by grasses.

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Speaker 3: And one of the latest projects Wage of Fellers and

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Speaker 3: Bonner Powell worked on was comparing how some of the

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Speaker 3: field renovation techniques looking at planting native grasses and forbes

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Speaker 3: as opposed to using the seed bank only after getting

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Speaker 3: rid of the vast coverage of non native grasses, and

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Speaker 3: for every metric, the seed bank response was just as good,

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Speaker 3: if not better than planting native grasses in forbes. And

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Speaker 3: so I'm not saying that you should never plant native

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Speaker 3: grasses in forbes, but I will say, for a majority

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Speaker 3: of the species that we are interested in, and on

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Speaker 3: a majority of sites, you don't have to plant native

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Speaker 3: grasses in forbes in order to have a much much

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Speaker 3: better plant community and also responding wildlife community. And I

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Speaker 3: think that is I think it's very important information because

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Speaker 3: we found that we could treat restore impact four times

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Speaker 3: more acreage by simply using the seed bank as opposed

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Speaker 3: to plant native grasses and forbes when you consider the cost.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I've read a piece that you wrote

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Speaker 2: about this study and some of the implications of it,

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Speaker 2: and it had me thinking about some things I could

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Speaker 2: do myself if you were looking at some of the

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Speaker 2: most impactful ways that you could, you know, work on

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Speaker 2: your property, manage your property in a way that like

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Speaker 2: we're talking about that's not just deer in asylum, but

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Speaker 2: looking at the larger ecosystem the health of all these

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Speaker 2: different categories of species. Is field management appropriate field management

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Speaker 2: for quality early secessional habitat. Is that one of those

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Speaker 2: top tier categories of things that we need to put

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Speaker 2: at the top of our list to be thinking about.

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Speaker 3: I believe so. And when you think of it in

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Speaker 3: a by this simplistic way that you can. If you

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Speaker 3: have property, you probably have either woods or fields or both.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if we just boil everything down, and so

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Speaker 3: having a mixture of that is what is most important.

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Speaker 3: If you're interested in species richness, having a variety of

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Speaker 3: either wildlife and or plant species on the property. And

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Speaker 3: so then you get into the nuances of how to

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Speaker 3: manage that. And that's where a lot of this field

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Speaker 3: management research that we've been doing has shed a lot

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Speaker 3: of light on. We don't need fields with solid grass

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Speaker 3: coverage for a vast majority of the species that we're

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Speaker 3: managing for I mean, unless it's a grassland obligate songbird

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Speaker 3: such as an eastern metal arc or grasshoppersparra what have you,

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Speaker 3: which still requires some or obviously benefits from some fords,

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Speaker 3: whether it be from the structure or for the food

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00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 3: resources that are available from them, whether it's seed or

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Speaker 3: the insects that are associated with the plant. We see

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Speaker 3: that these forbes communities provide a lot, and your management

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Speaker 3: of the fields to go in that direction instead of

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Speaker 3: simply grass coverage will get you a lot more.

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Speaker 2: So, what you're saying is that these forty acre plantings

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Speaker 2: of nothing but switch grass not such a good idea.

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Speaker 3: I would say, in my opinion, No, but the data

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Speaker 3: buried out. I mean, will a deer lay in a

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Speaker 3: switch grass field, Yes? But will they lay in a

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Speaker 3: field containing naturally occurring native forbes just as much? Yes?

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Speaker 3: Do they eat switch grass? No? Do they eat these forbes? Yes?

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Speaker 3: And these forbes, the vast majority of them, the ones

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Speaker 3: that deer select, actually have greater nutritional value than the

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00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 3: maximum amount required by bucks growing antlers or lactating dose.

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Speaker 3: And I'm telling you, when people begin to see the

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Speaker 3: value of let's just use this word loosely weeds, and

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Speaker 3: for most people, they're referring to forbs when they say weeds.

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Speaker 3: It's an inaccurate use of the word, but that's the

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Speaker 3: way most people use it. When people, and especially deer managers,

357
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Speaker 3: truly understand and appreciate the value of these wild, naturally

358
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 3: occurring forbs weeds, the game is changed buying large. You

359
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 3: don't need summer food plots anymore because they're out there

360
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: growing wild, and we are realizing tremendous increases in both

361
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,479
Speaker 3: antler size and body weights per age class when you

362
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Speaker 3: have a certain amount of the in these plant communities

363
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 3: that are providing these highly nutritional plants, the various forbes

364
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 3: that are just coming up from the seed bank that

365
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Speaker 3: they didn't even bother to plant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to argue with that. But I can

367
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Speaker 2: hear some people saying, well, why would you want your

368
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 2: food and your cover all in the same place where

369
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: the deer would just stand there in daylight and never

370
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Speaker 2: come walking past your tree stand?

371
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Speaker 3: Right?

372
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Speaker 2: That's the argument I think a lot of people would say,

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Speaker 2: is like, I want just pure switch here or pure

374
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Speaker 2: betting here, and then I want pure food on the

375
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Speaker 2: other side, and I want to hunt in between. And

376
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 2: you know, or they'll say, well, we want switchcrafts because

377
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 2: it holds up better in the winter and provides better

378
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Speaker 2: cover at certain times of the year. Right, there's very

379
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 2: specific kind of use cases. Some folks will say from

380
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Speaker 2: a huntability perspective where they'd want something like that, what

381
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 2: would be what's your response to that?

382
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Speaker 3: I guess, well, one is, you're not a bad person

383
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 3: if you plant switch grass. I mean, it's all right.

384
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Speaker 3: I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but but

385
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Speaker 3: I am saying that it's a better thing for the

386
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 3: deer if you have better plant diversity out there rather

387
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 3: than just switch grass. And the whole notion that you know,

388
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Speaker 3: my hunting is no good if I have food and

389
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 3: cover in the same spot. That's that's just simply wrong.

390
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Speaker 3: That's that's it. All you got to do is look

391
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Speaker 3: at any deer movement study, you know, GPS, collars, et cetera.

392
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Speaker 3: I don't care what the quality of the cover is,

393
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 3: what the quality of the food is. Deer are still

394
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 3: going to move. That's a fact. And so you're hunting

395
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 3: pressure has a lot to do with when they move.

396
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 3: If they're showing up in open areas or wherever before

397
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 3: daylight or if they're staying put until dark. And so

398
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 3: don't confuse the quality of cover with with hunting pressure.

399
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 3: Both can be very influential. But but look, we manage

400
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 3: these fields in the way that I'm talking about, and

401
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 3: we hunt over those fields, and you can see deer

402
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 3: moving in these fields. And we're talking about cover that is, uh,

403
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 3: you know, at least three feet maybe five feet or

404
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 3: so in high and you know, there'll be some plants

405
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 3: that get taller than that, and and it's according to

406
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 3: the plant composition as to how well it holds up

407
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 3: over winter as well, many of these plants hold up

408
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 3: just as good and provide just as good of visual

409
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 3: breaking with with cover through the winter as switchgrass does.

410
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 3: So it's it's incorrect to think that you have to

411
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 3: have switchgrass to have cover in fields. And as we

412
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,959
Speaker 3: all know, in real inclement weather, the deer aren't going

413
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,479
Speaker 3: to be laying out there in a switch grass field

414
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 3: when it's you know, sleeping and heavy snow and that

415
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 3: kind of thing. They're going to be in a in

416
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 3: a forested area. Typically, if there's some a a green cover,

417
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 3: a vailable et cetera, where the snow is not as

418
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 3: deep and the wind is not as hard on them.

419
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 3: So you know, switch grass is not the cure all

420
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:11,479
Speaker 3: for everything.

421
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so then this appropriate management of these old fields,

422
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 2: I selfishly have a couple of specific questions because I've

423
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 2: got a place that I that I have a certain

424
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 2: degree of management control over. But I can't do everything

425
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: and anything like I couldn't do a burn on it.

426
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: But I can plant food plots as long as I

427
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 2: don't mess with the farmer's crops. It's that kind of thing.

428
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: And if there's open space, I can do things with

429
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: it as long as it's you know, kind of out

430
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 2: of sight, out of mind. And there is a large

431
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 2: power line that runs through this property, and then a

432
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: low lying area that drains a lot of water off

433
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: the fields and now is mostly some kind of cool

434
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 2: seasoned grass. I think it's either orchard grass or timothy grass,

435
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: and it covers almost all of this probably five acre

436
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: kind of relatively low place. And then there's this you know,

437
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, half a mile long power line that

438
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 2: runs through this property that's mostly that kind of grass.

439
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 2: I have a couple of food plots in there, but

440
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 2: for a while now, I've known if I could do

441
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: something with that grass and convert it to something that's

442
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: beneficial for wildlife, that would probably have a greater impact

443
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 2: than just my couple tiny food plots. But I suppose

444
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: I've just been yeah, Okay, I guess I've just been

445
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: hesitant to I suppose I've thought maybe I don't have

446
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 2: the right equipment or the ability to do it without

447
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 2: having fire or a big disc or something like that.

448
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 2: Can I make a difference just by spraying this stuff?

449
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 2: Is that going to be enough to get something native

450
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: coming up again or something more beneficial than this carpet

451
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 2: of grass right now?

452
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, Mark, what you just describe is exactly what I'm

453
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 3: talking about. And so if you simply in that situation,

454
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 3: you've got a non native perennial cool season grass, whether

455
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 3: it's timothy or orchard grass, bluegrass, tall rescue, you can

456
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,479
Speaker 3: add brome grasses that what have you. All you need

457
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 3: to do is go in there in the fall, as

458
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 3: I have said many many times, typically after a couple

459
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 3: of frosts, and then spray the grass, usually with a

460
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 3: two percent solution of glycos sate herbicide one time, and

461
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 3: you've just fixed it. It is that simple spray at

462
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 3: one time and walk away. By the following spring, you're

463
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: going to have an explosion of all kinds of stuff

464
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 3: coming out of the seed bank. Some of that stuff

465
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: is going to be good, some of that stuff not

466
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 3: so good. If some of the stuff is not so good,

467
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 3: we simply go in typically once per year in May

468
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 3: through July, and spot spray the stuff that we don't like,

469
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 3: leave the stuff that we do like, and let nature

470
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 3: take care of the rest. Wherever you have plants that

471
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 3: are undesirable and you spot spray, you're going to have

472
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 3: dead patches, and something is going to germinate in that

473
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 3: patch within a couple of rains, you know, during the

474
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 3: growing season. And so if you do that right there

475
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: once per year, over the course of three years or so,

476
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 3: you will have absolutely transformed that field. And by default,

477
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: then everything there will be what you want because you've

478
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 3: been you've simply been killing what you don't want instead

479
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 3: of planting what you do want. When you plant what

480
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 3: you do want, you still have what you don't want

481
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 3: because you haven't gotten rid of it yet. There's going

482
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 3: to be plants coming in from the seed bank that

483
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: you don't like, and so instead of planting what you want,

484
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 3: simply kill what you don't want and let nature fill

485
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 3: in the rest.

486
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 2: So I understand that that false spring is more effective.

487
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: I think I saw one of your studies that showed,

488
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: you know, the amount of non desirable species the year

489
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: or up to three years after is much less when

490
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: you do that fall spring versus spring planting. But we're

491
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: talking in late February. Can I is it so inefficient

492
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 2: to spray early in the spring that I should wait

493
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: all the way till this fall, and or could I

494
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: start now once that stuff starts greenning up the spring

495
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 2: and start to see some kind of positive benefit this

496
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: first summer and fall rather than waiting a full you know,

497
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: six seven months from now to start.

498
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: Yes. Absolutely, It's just that you will have additional mop

499
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 3: up of those cool season grasses over the next two

500
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 3: or three years as opposed to having your first herbicide

501
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: application completed in the fall. And so on average, what

502
00:30:54,600 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 3: we have found is with spring spray in perennial coups,

503
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 3: season grasses by the second year after spray and you're

504
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 3: probably going to have at least thirty maybe forty percent

505
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 3: coverage of that grass because you don't get as good

506
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 3: of a kill on the root system. But if you

507
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 3: want to go ahead and get started, absolutely, it just

508
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 3: means that you have a little more mop up of

509
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 3: some of those cool season grasses down the road.

510
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: Okay, and I think I read somewhere, but I want

511
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: to make sure I understand this correctly. There's a there's

512
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 2: a significant thatch layer of all this dead grass that's

513
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: you know, knocked down every single year right before the

514
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: spring growing up when there's gonna be that new growth.

515
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 2: When I would spray, would it work? Would it be

516
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: worth my time to go in there and mow that

517
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 2: thatch down a couple of times just to knock that

518
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: down and make it uh so I have better contact

519
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: to that new grass when it does start growing. Is

520
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 2: that the right way to prep or clean that field

521
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: before spring?

522
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 3: If you have standing dead material that would block the

523
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: herbicide coming in contact from the green growing grass, then

524
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 3: it definitely will behoove you to mow that before the

525
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 3: grass starts growing, get that knocked down, and then when

526
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 3: the grass comes out and greens up really good in springtime.

527
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 3: And let's see, would you be doing this in Michigan?

528
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah?

529
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 3: And so you would probably be looking at spraying in May,

530
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 3: like early May or something, when you know it really

531
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 3: starts growing really good and before it bolts and begins

532
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 3: to flour. And so you know, if you go over

533
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 3: it with and mow it sometime in March April and

534
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 3: you're kind of setting the table there, you know, cleaning

535
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: things up and enabling fresh growing grass to come out,

536
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 3: that that would give you your best result. Now what

537
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 3: I thought you were asking, what is about the dead

538
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: thatch that remains after you spray the grass and you

539
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 3: and if you can't burn, and if you can't burn

540
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 3: that off, don't worry about it. It's dead. It's not sinescent,

541
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 3: meaning you know it's going to come back. It's dead,

542
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 3: and so it will deteriorate and decompose over time and

543
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 3: plants are going to come right up through that, no problem.

544
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 2: Perfect. Okay, Well I've got my marching orders. This is

545
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: the year that I finally need to do it.

546
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: So well, and you know, I certainly sympathize with you.

547
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: I know a lot of people are in either places

548
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 3: or position whatever where they can't burn, and we talk

549
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 3: about burning a lot, and of course burning is a

550
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 3: fantastic management tool. But if you can't burn fields, all

551
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 3: is not lost. In particular, if you're using these spot

552
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 3: herbicide applications, that that is a game changer right there.

553
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 3: We simply drive through the field as if we were

554
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 3: mowing on an open cab tractor ATV and off of

555
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 3: either side of the tractor with a spray gun, not

556
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,720
Speaker 3: the spray boom, but a spray gun. Simply spot spray

557
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 3: those plants that you don't like. And by doing so,

558
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 3: what you're doing is setting back succession. And so you're

559
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 3: going right back to square one where you have annual

560
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 3: plants germinating in those dead barre patches and instead of

561
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 3: existing perennial plants. And so if you burn a field,

562
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 3: particularly if you burn it in late winter early spring,

563
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: you consume the material, but you are promoting perennial grasses

564
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 3: and other perennial plant By doing so, you're you're maintaining

565
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 3: a community that's primarily going to be perennial plants. If

566
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 3: at some point you scratch the dirt a little bit,

567
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 3: you know, light disking. It doesn't have to be you know,

568
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: a heavy bog disc or whatever, but you know, you

569
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 3: lightly disc that's where you're going to stimulate more annual

570
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 3: forbs coming out and that will give you increased plant diversity.

571
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 3: So if you can't burn, you know, don't don't worry.

572
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 3: Using spot spray applications and and doing some light disking

573
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 3: every two to three years is really good. And even

574
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 3: if you're mowing, you know, try to keep your mowing

575
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 3: in late winter early spring, before the nesting season of

576
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 3: various species. And uh and if you want the disk

577
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 3: but you don't have a heavy enough disk, if you

578
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 3: mow ahead of time and then disk you know sometime

579
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 3: after you mow, that will call some obviously some soul disturbance,

580
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 3: and that will maintain a different suite of plants instead

581
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 3: of if you just mow all the time, then you're

582
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 3: probably gonna end up with a grass dominated situation. And

583
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 3: if you just burn, particularly if you just burn in

584
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 3: late winter and early spring, you're going to be dominated

585
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: by grasses and some other perennial plants. You know, one

586
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 3: that's very common up your way is golden rod. You know,

587
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 3: you see fields that are just solid golden rod. Well,

588
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not a golden rod hater. I like

589
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 3: golden rod, but I don't a field full of it,

590
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 3: and so in such a situation, such a situation, you

591
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 3: need to disk because that's a strong perennial forb and

592
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 3: it can remain on that site for a long long time,

593
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 3: and your species diversity is very low. And so even

594
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 3: if you have a light tandem disc, if you mow

595
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 3: it ahead of time and then you go over it

596
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 3: with a disk, you'll reduce the golden raw density because

597
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: that's a perennial plant and you just disturbed its root system,

598
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 3: and you'll give rise to more annual spaces.

599
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 2: Something I've heard you mentioned over and over again has

600
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: been diversity, and it it would seem that in many

601
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 2: cases that is is like a is a principle to

602
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 2: always keep in mind when we're trying to do what's

603
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 2: best for the landscape, what's best for the overall ecosystem,

604
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 2: what's best for biodiversity is often plant diversity or land

605
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: use type diversity, whatever it might be. I guess number one,

606
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 2: Am I am I interpreting that correctly? And then number two?

607
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: Are there any other overall principles similar to this emphasis

608
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 2: on diversity that we should be thinking about when trying

609
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 2: to be better stewards of the landscape, not just being

610
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 2: dear one, but deer plus anything else other than this

611
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 2: idea of diversity being important.

612
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 3: Well, I think, first off, number one, you're you're correct,

613
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 3: and I think that's an accurate line of thinking. But

614
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 3: let's think for just a second about what diversity is.

615
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 3: You know, species richness refers to the number of species

616
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 3: that you you know, let's say in a field, if

617
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 3: you're talking about plants, the number of species that occur

618
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 3: in the field, all right, the diversity takes into account

619
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 3: the species richness as well as their distribution. And so

620
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 3: hopefully you wouldn't have one group of plants in this

621
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 3: corner of the field and another group of plants in

622
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 3: this corner of the field. See, if that were the case,

623
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 3: your species richness would be just as great, but your

624
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 3: diversity wouldn't be Your diversity would be greater if there's

625
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 3: better mixing across the field of those plants. And so

626
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 3: the same is true, you know, if you're talking about

627
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 3: the versity of a landscape. And so with a landscape,

628
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 3: that's where I'm stressing that people should not just manage

629
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 3: their woods or manage their property in woods. If you

630
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 3: have a property that is that is solid woods, you know,

631
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 3: depending on the size, you should do something to create

632
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 3: some openings, because if you create openings, then you're going

633
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 3: to have a totally different plant community, and you're going

634
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 3: to have different wildlife species, and some wildlife species such

635
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 3: as deer, will have additional resources that they didn't before,

636
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 3: and so on the landscape. You can have increased diversity

637
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 3: by not just having additional vegetation types, but also looking

638
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 3: at the distribution of those vegetation types, and that can

639
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 3: be very important with regard to to where wildlife are found,

640
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 3: their movements and time they spend in different areas, etc.

641
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense. What if we were

642
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 2: to continue down that line of thinking, and if I

643
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: were if I were in the Craig Harper masterclass for

644
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: how to be a Better land Steward, I think I'm

645
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: picking up on here managing our old fields appropriately. I'm

646
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 2: picking up on diversity of not just species richest, but

647
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: also distribution. I think we've talked a little bit about

648
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: the importance of, you know, looking at more than just hey,

649
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: what's good for deer in a silo? What would a

650
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 2: few of the other pillars of your approach be if

651
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: you were to, you know, have that bullet list of

652
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: the main things that you really wanted to drill into

653
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: someone's head. Someone who's been doing the you know, big

654
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: buck on a bag food plot thing for a lot

655
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: of years maybe and is now trying to expand the

656
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 2: horizons a little bit. What would the next couple of

657
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 2: things beyond that top three, top four list.

658
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 3: One of the things that I think is very important

659
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 3: is not just managing a property, but thinking about your

660
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 3: scale of management. You know, one ilmost say problem is

661
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 3: that a lot of people don't manage their property. You know,

662
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 3: they just have property and it doesn't even cross their

663
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 3: mind that they can do something to improve their woods,

664
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: improve their fields for different wildlife species, or or they

665
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 3: might know they could, but they don't because of calls,

666
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,800
Speaker 3: they don't because they don't want to expend the effort,

667
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 3: et cetera. So not managing is one thing, But then

668
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: when you look at the group of landowners who do

669
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 3: manage their property, not that many of them think about

670
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 3: their scale of management. And so what I'm getting at

671
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 3: there is, let's say, for example, you're going to burn

672
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 3: a section of woods, or let's say that you're going

673
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 3: to set back succession in your fields by either burning

674
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 3: or disking or what have you. Well, how big of

675
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 3: an area do you burn or how much of the

676
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 3: field do you disk? Or do you disk all of

677
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 3: your fields in the same year, or do you leave

678
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 3: some of them for you know, a rotation such that

679
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 3: some are disturbed one year and not the others. And

680
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 3: so thinking about how big of an area should be

681
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 3: managed at once is very important, and I think that's

682
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 3: particularly important with fire. Of course we use fire to

683
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 3: manage woods, but do we have areas broken out where

684
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 3: you're burning five acres, ten acres, fifty acres, five hundred acres.

685
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 3: You know, there's lots of thought, you know, into that,

686
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 3: and it's not that something is necessarily right or wrong.

687
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 3: But when you think about the movements of a particular

688
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 3: wildlife species and uh the area that they typically are found,

689
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 3: you know, a seasonal home range, then you consider, wow,

690
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 3: you know, if I burn five hundred acres, I've just

691
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 3: displaced that animal, most of them for a certain amount

692
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 3: of time. And so would I benefit that species if

693
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 3: I implemented my management on a smaller scale, And if so,

694
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 3: what should that scale be? And that's something really that

695
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 3: that we're still trying to tease out in research. And

696
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 3: I'm not just talking about myself, but a lot of

697
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: people are working on this concept of scale and what

698
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 3: should it be, what would be best not only for

699
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 3: species A, B and C, but for you know, a

700
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 3: wider assemblage of species. So that that's something that I

701
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 3: find of great interest. And we were doing a workshop

702
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 3: just two or three years ago, I remember, and we

703
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 3: were burning. We were burning a field, and of course

704
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 3: in a workshop, the area that we burned was was

705
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 3: fairly small. And I remember one guy asking me, well,

706
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 3: you know, how big of an area do you need

707
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 3: to burn to help something? And you know, like and

708
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 3: what he was getting at is to attract deer and

709
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 3: you know, provide you know, a fresh you know, re

710
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 3: sprouting food source to deer. And I asked him, uh

711
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 3: in the crowd, I said, uh, what is the smallest

712
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 3: food plot that you all have planted and killed a

713
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 3: deer in? And so, you know, their answers came in,

714
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 3: you know, half acre, third acre, or whatever the case

715
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 3: may be, and I said, so what is wrong with

716
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 3: getting your backpack blower out and blowing around a half

717
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 3: acre spot right there and burning it? Do you not

718
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 3: think that will attract deer? You know, of course it was,

719
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 3: so you know, and don't stop at that, go to

720
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 3: another one, and another one and another one. Now that's

721
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 3: an extreme example. I'm not telling people to burn on

722
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 3: halfaker scale. But the point is I would much rather

723
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 3: have several smaller management units than one really large management unit.

724
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 3: That way, I'm providing more resources both food and cover

725
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 3: for a particular wildlife species through the year better than

726
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 3: if I managed it all at once.

727
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 2: Does that even all kind of trickle back down to

728
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: creating diversity because you're creating time scale diversity in management applications.

729
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 3: You absolutely are yeah. Interesting and and see don't I

730
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 3: don't like to get you know, just wrapped up in

731
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 3: you know, the word diversity or the concept of it.

732
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 3: You know, you could have of greater species richness. Let's say,

733
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 3: for example, you have fifty native plants in a field

734
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 3: and twenty five non native plants. Well, your species richness

735
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 3: and your diversity are greater with those non native plants.

736
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 3: I don't want those. So you know, there's a case

737
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 3: where you know, less species richness and less diversity would

738
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,399
Speaker 3: be would be better. So we have to keep things

739
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 3: in context that you know, we're we're just trying to

740
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: make things better. And so if if you or I

741
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 3: or most people go into a restaurant, we would like

742
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 3: to see and let's think about this, you could only

743
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 3: eat at that restaurant. Well, we would like to see

744
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 3: a lot of things on the menu, wouldn't we. We

745
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 3: would like some choices every once in a while. And

746
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 3: you know, even our needs change not as much now

747
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 3: as they did thousands of years ago, but they changed

748
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 3: through the year. I mean, I certainly find myself eaten

749
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 3: a little differently in hot summer as I would in

750
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 3: cold winters. And so that's the whole point, trying to

751
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 3: provide different wildlife species with as many options as we can,

752
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 3: because they inherently know what they need, and so if

753
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 3: we provide lots of things, they can do the picking

754
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 3: and the choosing and come out in best shape possible.

755
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you mentioned another thing that if I were

756
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: making a list of what I'm trying to create here,

757
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 2: which is like maybe my ten commandments for better landscape

758
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 2: stewardship or whatever it might be. We've talked about a

759
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: few of these different things, but one of them is

760
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 2: native managing for native versus non native species. That seems

761
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: to be something that universally across the board almost everyone

762
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 2: says is going to be better for landscape health, better

763
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 2: for you know, most species. If you care about the

764
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:00,959
Speaker 2: whole suite of wildlife and your price, pretty managing native

765
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 2: is usually the way to go. But we're here, I'm

766
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: hearing more and more folks say, well, what's native versus

767
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 2: non native anything anymore?

768
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 3: Right?

769
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 2: Everything around us is from somewhere else. That's the way

770
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 2: of the world, that's where things are going. So many

771
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: of these species are naturalized now, they've been here for

772
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 2: one hundred years. I see birds eating the berries on

773
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: my automolive all the time. YadA, YadA, YadA. Two questions

774
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 2: out of that. Number one, what's your response to someone

775
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 2: who has that perspective? And then number two, why is

776
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 2: it that managing for native vegetation is so much more

777
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 2: beneficial for wildlife in general?

778
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 3: Well, let me reverse the questions, if I may, sure,

779
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 3: managing for native species by and large in general is

780
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 3: going to be native plant species is going to be

781
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 3: better for native wildlife because that's what the wildlife evolved with.

782
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 3: The Wildlife didn't evolve with plants from a different from

783
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 3: a different continent. And so when somebody says, well, what

784
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 3: is native what is non native? Well, I can answer

785
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 3: that fairly easily. If a plant is from a given area,

786
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 3: it is native to there, then it's not native. You know,

787
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 3: that's pretty easy. And when they say, well, you know,

788
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 3: is there any need to worry about this? You know

789
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 3: they're naturalized and that kind of thing. You know. I

790
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 3: remember the day when I was kind of wrapped up

791
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 3: in this more than I am now, and it would

792
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 3: really really bother me if there was anything non native

793
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 3: on a particular property, and I wanted to go out

794
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 3: of my way to get rid of it. But I

795
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 3: guess I've changed my way of thinking a little bit.

796
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 3: I still am a strong native plant proponent and in

797
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 3: general want to get rid of non native species. But

798
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 3: for example, if you have all molive, and I've watched

799
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 3: turkeys eat break the branches out of automolive trees eat

800
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:11,439
Speaker 3: eating the berries, is that that big of a deal

801
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 3: if you're not letting it spread everywhere? I think, if

802
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 3: it's a non native species and it is helping you

803
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 3: meet your objective, as long as you're not allowing this

804
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 3: to spread all over and take over the property, and

805
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 3: you know it's not an easy situation because somebody can say, well,

806
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: it's it's spreading onto other properties, not just your property,

807
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 3: And that certainly can be true. However, more likely than not,

808
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 3: if it's on your property, it's already on the neighbors. Also. Now,

809
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 3: if you're in a situation where you have a non

810
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 3: native species, and particularly if you've brought it in and

811
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 3: that could then spread from your property to others, I

812
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 3: think you have a responsibility of getting rid of that plant,

813
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 3: because then you're you're having an adverse effect on other people,

814
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 3: and and and I don't want to do that, but

815
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 3: I've backed off a little bit on you know this,

816
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 3: this strong approach that I used to have. If anything's

817
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,959
Speaker 3: non native, let's get rid of it. You know, there's

818
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 3: several examples of non native plants that the wildlife species

819
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 3: that I'm managing for is benefiting from it. Now, I

820
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 3: still kill multi floor rows. I don't care if rabbits

821
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 3: are a focal species on the property or not, because

822
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,919
Speaker 3: I can easily manage fields and have a field full

823
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 3: of rabbits without multi floor rows along the edge. And

824
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 3: there are others that whatever circumstances there is, you need

825
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 3: to get rid of it. Things such as Cerisia, lespadiza,

826
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 3: cogan grass. I mean, there's lots of examples where there's

827
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 3: there's no reason to have this on your property. But

828
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 3: you know, you wrote up automolive, and you know I

829
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:08,359
Speaker 3: don't plant, I don't promote automolive. But you know, if

830
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 3: you cut the stem of a big automolive bush and

831
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 3: let it re sprout, those resproutes have some of the

832
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,720
Speaker 3: highest crew protein content we've ever recorded in any plants,

833
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 3: above forty percent. I mean, it's like off the charge.

834
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 3: I probably shouldn't have mentioned that. Probably some people we

835
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 3: need we need to have more of that. But see

836
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 3: that's not allowing it to produce berries. That's cutting a

837
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 3: stem and just keeping it, you know, vegetative resprout. Yeah.

838
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 2: Well, so much of it comes down to prioritizing limited resources,

839
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 2: and most times that's limited time or financial resources. Right,

840
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 2: And if time and money were no object, and we

841
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 2: could just snap our fingers and change everything we wanted

842
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 2: on the landscape, well then maybe we would get rid

843
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 2: of every single non native because you could replace it

844
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 2: with a more beneficial nonnati or native. But that absolutely okay,

845
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 2: But in reality, right, that's that's not the case. We

846
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 2: can't do that. We have to make choices how we're

847
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 2: going to spend our time, what we're going to focus on.

848
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: And so it does make sense to me that there

849
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,839
Speaker 2: might be more efficient uses of your time, or better

850
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: bang for your buck uses of your time attacking other

851
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 2: native species that are invasive and spreading, or doing these

852
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:19,919
Speaker 2: different things we're talking.

853
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 3: You have to pick your battles. You're exactly right. And

854
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 3: I'll give you a couple of perspectives. One, if you've

855
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 3: got a field of non native grass, that is one

856
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 3: that you should you should address. If you're interested in deer,

857
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 3: turkeys and most other wildlife species, that's your low hanging

858
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 3: fruit right there. Simply kill it and you're going to

859
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 3: improve things tenfold and greater just by doing that. And

860
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 3: as I mentioned, there's other plants, whether it be cerisio

861
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 3: espadesa bermuda grass, there's lots of them that I'm going

862
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 3: out of my way to do what I can to

863
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 3: control those. And that's an interesting word right there. Does

864
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 3: control mean keel or does control mean completely eradicate and

865
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 3: get rid of? Or does control mean maintain it at

866
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 3: a level that allows you to meet your objective, and

867
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 3: an example of that might be something like oriental bittersweet.

868
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 3: It's a vine that grows in the woods. It's extremely

869
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 3: prevalent in most areas of the eastern US, and I mean,

870
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 3: it's a problem, it's a problem. But how did the

871
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 3: oriental bittersweet get there? It got there by birds eating

872
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 3: and dropping the berries, not on my property, but on

873
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 3: somebody property. It could been miles and miles away. And

874
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 3: so I put all this time and effort into spraying

875
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 3: getting rid of oriental bittersweet in my woods. Well, I

876
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 3: can't be surprised when I find it in there again

877
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 3: next year, because the birds came. And so the whole

878
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 3: thing about controlling non native species now it used to

879
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 3: be looked at more as an event when we you know,

880
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 3: I'm will say, twenty five thirty years ago, we didn't

881
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: have near the problems that we do today. And now

882
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 3: gotten to the point where people say, well, you know,

883
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 3: I don't think I should cut any trees or disturb

884
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 3: my woods or whatever, because if I do, I'm just

885
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,359
Speaker 3: gonna get non native species. And to that, at least,

886
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 3: my perspective is no, no, no, no, no, I'm definitely

887
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 3: managing my woods I'm definitely using disturbance. I know that

888
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 3: non native species are going to show up. It's simply

889
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 3: a way of life now, it's just something that we've

890
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 3: got to do. Combating non native species has just gotten

891
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 3: to be a standard procedure anymore. You can't look at

892
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 3: it as an event. I'm gonna get rid of it

893
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 3: and won't have to do it again. As long as

894
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 3: you manage land, you're going to have to continue to

895
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 3: deal with non nighted spaces.

896
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 2: So you mentioned a couple specific species examples, and then

897
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:08,879
Speaker 2: you mentioned that, you know, if you've got a cool

898
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: season grass field that's you know, like a side layer,

899
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 2: that's a that's a fire five star alarm kind of thing.

900
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 2: Are there any other more general categories of problems that

901
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 2: would be like this has to go right to the

902
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 2: top of your list, Like, like I'm imagining maybe one

903
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 2: of them might be we've got this monoculture cool season

904
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 2: grass field that you just described that's an issue. Is

905
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 2: the same thing true if you have a monoculture of

906
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 2: old age class hardwoods or something like if you've got

907
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 2: a really old mature forest where there's nothing growing underneath,

908
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 2: you know, is that one of those things or Hey,

909
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:45,879
Speaker 2: that's got to go to the top of the list

910
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:50,320
Speaker 2: because again we lack diversity in species richness anything like that.

911
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 2: Am I in the right path of something like that?

912
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 2: Or are there other things that you would call out

913
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 2: as being these, hey to the top of the list?

914
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I agree. I think you're right. At least

915
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 3: the closed canopy hardwoods, according to what species they are

916
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 3: the wildlife, even if there's nothing growing under in the understory,

917
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 3: at least wildlife would get something from the mast that's

918
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 3: being available where they're For most species, they're getting nothing

919
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 3: out of the cool season grass field. But yes, there's

920
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 3: so many things that can be done to your woods

921
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 3: by simply allowing a little sunlight to come in, and

922
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 3: there's all kinds of levels of sunlight that that will

923
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 3: allow better development of the understory. And then you think

924
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 3: about your disturbance regime as how you can change that

925
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 3: over time, either through cutting or fire, what have you.

926
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 3: So there's there's lots of work that we can do

927
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 3: both in our forest and our field to improve them.

928
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 3: But again, to get back to that central theme, having

929
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 3: a little bit of a whole lot of stuff available

930
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 3: is very important to many of these wildlife spaces that

931
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 3: we're interesting.

932
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so here's one species that you mentioned as

933
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:23,439
Speaker 2: being a generalist, but I'm curious if there are any

934
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 2: specific things we can do to help this generalist, which

935
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 2: are turkeys. They've been in the news a lot over

936
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 2: recent years because we are in some states, in some

937
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 2: regions of the country starting to see these declines. I

938
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 2: know you worked on a study relatively recently looking at

939
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 2: that I think down in your neck of the woods

940
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 2: around Tennessee. When it comes to turkeys, if that's something

941
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 2: that we're worried about in our area, what are some

942
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 2: of the most effective management efforts we can tackle that

943
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 2: are going to help with some of these limiting factors

944
00:58:55,360 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 2: that are possibly slowing the growth or rest racial turkey populations.

945
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 3: Well as related to habitat, trying to provide something on

946
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 3: your property for all of their life's needs. And so,

947
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 3: you know, a turkey will nest just about anywhere. But interestingly,

948
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 3: in the five county area that we conducted the Turkey Project,

949
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 3: then over its eighth year right now, right at fifty percent,

950
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 3: almost fifty percent of the nests were located in either

951
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 3: early succession or a very young regenerating stand which represented

952
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 3: only seven percent of the landscape. So I mean think

953
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 3: about that, Yeah, nearly fifty percent of the nest occurred

954
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 3: on seven percent of the landscape, and having that available

955
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 3: can be very important because also nest success in early

956
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 3: succession was greater than any other vegetation type mature woods,

957
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 3: regenerating woods, pasture, hayfield, what have you. Nest success was

958
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 3: greatest in early succession and so you know, in like

959
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 3: an old field. So then thinking about what happens after nesting, Well,

960
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 3: they have broods, and so having cover that is appropriate

961
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 3: for broods with regard to the height and the density

962
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 3: is very important. And so there's where forbes can be

963
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 3: very important. And particularly if that cover is not taller

964
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 3: than the hen. You know, if the hen can see

965
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 3: out over the cover, she typically selects those areas. But

966
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 3: the cover is tall enough to conceal the poles, that's

967
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 3: very important and mark you know, forever everybody has always

968
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 3: thought of fields as being the best brooding cover. Well,

969
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 3: they fields may be, but that's dependent upon the structure

970
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 3: of the field. If the growth and thatch at ground

971
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 3: level is so dense and tight that poulps can't maneuver

972
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 3: through it, then you're going to see the hens with

973
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 3: broods either use woods around the edges of fields, and

974
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 3: that is precisely what we have seen in South Middle Tennessee.

975
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 3: Of the fields that they had available to them, they

976
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 3: would strongly select them for nesting, but the structure was

977
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 3: so dense in general at ground level they didn't brood

978
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:34,000
Speaker 3: in them hardly at all. And so that's when you

979
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 3: begin looking at managing your woods a little differently. I

980
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 3: would argue, and I've said to many audiences, I would

981
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 3: say that an oak woodland or an oak pine woodland

982
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 3: where you know your the amount of sunlight coming in

983
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 3: might be anywhere from around thirty to seventy percent. But

984
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 3: having those oak woodlands where you're managing with frequent fire,

985
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 3: those are I would consider them the single best vegetation

986
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 3: type for wild turkeys. They have fall foods, they have

987
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 3: spring and summer foods. There's cover for nesting, cover for brooding. Obviously,

988
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 3: they can roost in there, according to when and how

989
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 3: often you manage it. There can be loafing cover. There's

990
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 3: there's something in these oak woodlands for turkeys at all times.

991
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 3: So don't overlook the value of your woods and reducing

992
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 3: the tree density to allow a certain amount of sunlight

993
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 3: to come in, because those can be outstanding brood rear

994
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 3: in areas, not just your fields. And and and if

995
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 3: you do have fields, you definitely want to manage some

996
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 3: of them either with fire or disking to open up

997
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 3: the structure at ground level. So it's uh, you know,

998
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 3: it's there's a plant canopy, but it's open underneath where

999
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 3: the where the polps can walk about very easily. And

1000
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 3: you'll see increased use in the those types of fields

1001
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 3: versus those where there's a lot of thatch build up,

1002
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 3: dead material and it's so dense that the polpes can't

1003
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 3: hardly move.

1004
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:12,439
Speaker 2: And is that same kind of management philosophy or set

1005
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 2: of ideas appropriate or helpful to other bird species like woodcock,

1006
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 2: bob boy, quail grouse, similar type habitat needs. Is that

1007
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 2: going to help across the board.

1008
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 3: With regard to the structure, it can be very different

1009
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 3: by different bird species, But with regard to having something

1010
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 3: on your property available such that they need all the

1011
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 3: way through the year, absolutely that holds true. And so

1012
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 3: the structure that a grouse is going to use is

1013
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 3: going to be very different, of course than a bob

1014
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 3: white or a turkey, and ditto for woodcock. But so

1015
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 3: your management would be different for those species. You know,

1016
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 3: specific management for woodcock versus specific management for turkeys or

1017
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 3: bob white, but the overall general requirements are the same.

1018
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 3: It's just that the specific types of cover and specific

1019
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 3: types of food can be very different.

1020
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 2: So that's where it gets like tricky in my mind,

1021
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 2: is how do I how do I go about making

1022
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 2: a decision on my management prescription when I don't necessarily

1023
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 2: and maybe you have to to do it right, When

1024
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily want to prioritize grouse over turkeys or

1025
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:36,919
Speaker 2: deer over turkeys. I do want quality habitat for the deer,

1026
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 2: but I also have turkeys that I want to make

1027
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 2: sure this is going to be hospitable to. And oh,

1028
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:42,440
Speaker 2: by the way, there are rough grouse out here too,

1029
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 2: or I want to make sure that there could still

1030
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 2: be grouse out here, and oh, by the way, I

1031
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 2: also want to make sure that I'm providing opportunity for

1032
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:53,959
Speaker 2: a B and C down the list, small mammals, rabbits, whatever.

1033
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 2: Is it just a matter of the fact that you

1034
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 2: can't have it all? Or are there them general? How

1035
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 2: do you get what I'm having a hard time for

1036
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 2: me a question around here? How do I make sense

1037
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 2: of this?

1038
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 3: Well, I think what you're getting at is if you

1039
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 3: manage a little bit for everything, you can have a

1040
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 3: little bit of everything, but you might not have a

1041
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 3: whole lot of anything. If if that makes sense, and

1042
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 3: so if you have a wide variety of vegetation types

1043
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 3: and successional stages, then you're going to have the structure

1044
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 3: that that density of vegetation that a grouse would prefer,

1045
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 3: and you would have the density of vegetation that you know,

1046
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 3: turkey brews would prefer, you know, whatever the case may be.

1047
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 3: But your property might not be tuned in the best

1048
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 3: possible for any one of those species. But you're providing

1049
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 3: at a little something for all of them. And so

1050
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 3: the occupancy of your property can be very high by

1051
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 3: different species, but it might not be the best property

1052
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 3: in the county for species A, B or C. Does

1053
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 3: that make sense?

1054
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 2: It does. So my next question then would be is

1055
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 2: that the and so if.

1056
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 3: I may, if I may interrupt you, So in that case,

1057
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 3: I think your objective then would be to provide a

1058
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 3: property that provides as much as possible for the widest

1059
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 3: number of species and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

1060
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 3: I think that's a great objective. But that's very different

1061
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 3: than if somebody is wanting to hold as many turkeys

1062
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 3: as many gobblers on their property as they can. That's

1063
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 3: that's two different objectives.

1064
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 2: Yep, yep. Okay, So I follow you there, and I

1065
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 2: think that that doesn't make it. That makes it very

1066
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,440
Speaker 2: clear if you're trying to establish you know we talked earlier,

1067
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 2: we might not be able to save the world, but

1068
01:06:56,920 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 2: we might feel to make it a better place. If

1069
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 2: you are a generalist hunter land manager who wants to

1070
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 2: make it a better place, then providing a lot of

1071
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,920
Speaker 2: different habitat types for a lot of different habitat species

1072
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 2: seems like a good rule of thumb if you have

1073
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 2: a focus yourself. Though, there's nothing wrong with putting a

1074
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 2: prescription on the ground that is more specific to them.

1075
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:28,480
Speaker 2: That all said, I guess there's ten thousand things that

1076
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:30,600
Speaker 2: we could cover here, but I'm going to skip towards

1077
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 2: kind of the ending to keep you well rested and

1078
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 2: not using up all of your little bit of free

1079
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 2: time you have coming off of all your travel. Let's

1080
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 2: end with top three bang for your buck or efficient

1081
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 2: use of time progest if you had to pick three

1082
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 2: very specific things that someone could do, that someone could

1083
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 2: pick up a tool now and get out there and

1084
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 2: do a thing. And I understand it's all region specific

1085
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 2: and all that, but feel free to pick a place

1086
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 2: of your choosing and pick three projects for somebody who

1087
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 2: has this larger perspective, for someone who's trying to do

1088
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 2: something that will make it a better place. What would

1089
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:20,240
Speaker 2: the first three things you would recommend someone get going

1090
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:22,519
Speaker 2: on this year? We've talked about a lot of different options.

1091
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 2: There's a lot of new ideas I think people probably

1092
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 2: have percolating now after hearing this, But what would be

1093
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:29,400
Speaker 2: your top three list?

1094
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:35,520
Speaker 3: I would say number one would be some forest stand improvement.

1095
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:40,400
Speaker 3: Grab a small chainsaw and get a squirt bottle with

1096
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 3: some herbicide. Go under your woods, kill the trees that

1097
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 3: are not helping you toward your objective, and steer your

1098
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 3: forest into the composition that is the best it could

1099
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:03,600
Speaker 3: be and into the structure that suits your objective. And

1100
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 3: so you might have areas where you implement more thinning

1101
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:11,880
Speaker 3: than in others because you like the you know, stem

1102
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:16,920
Speaker 3: density to be fairly great to help hold deer and

1103
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:22,320
Speaker 3: serve his bedding cover or potentially nesting cover. You might

1104
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 3: have others where you would want to be more open

1105
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 3: and be good brooding cover. You're killing trees that are

1106
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:34,519
Speaker 3: competing with good mast bearing trees and enabling them to

1107
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:42,760
Speaker 3: provide more food to me. That's the easiest recommendation. Grab

1108
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 3: a chainsaw, go enjoy the day, and you know, in

1109
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 3: just several hours work you can make a huge difference

1110
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 3: in your woods. Number two, I would go back to

1111
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:58,280
Speaker 3: the field situation that you described, and if you've got

1112
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 3: fields of native grasses and you're wanting to improve the

1113
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 3: habitat for most species on your property by simply getting

1114
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:12,599
Speaker 3: rid of those grasses, that that's gonna that's that's that's

1115
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:15,639
Speaker 3: the lowest fruit right there. That's that's a very easy one.

1116
01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:20,879
Speaker 3: And then number three, I think I would probably encourage

1117
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:25,639
Speaker 3: people to, if they haven't already, to try prescribe fire.

1118
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:30,799
Speaker 3: And what I've told people is don't start big, start

1119
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 3: small and get some people who have implemented fire to

1120
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 3: help you. Go to some workshops. If you have prescribed

1121
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:44,679
Speaker 3: fire certification course in your state, either through the state

1122
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 3: Forestry Agency, prescribe fire councils, et cetera, learn more about fire,

1123
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:56,320
Speaker 3: because if you can use fire, you can get to

1124
01:10:56,439 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 3: the next level with your your your habitat management. And

1125
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be a great big burn. You know,

1126
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:05,840
Speaker 3: if you burn you know, an acre of a field,

1127
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:10,480
Speaker 3: you know, disk around one acre and under the appropriate conditions,

1128
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:12,160
Speaker 3: and I know we can't get into all that, but

1129
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:15,599
Speaker 3: under the appropriate conditions you can have a very safe

1130
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:21,320
Speaker 3: burn event. Ditto in your woods. Don't let anybody tell

1131
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:24,719
Speaker 3: you that you can't burn hard woods without killing trees.

1132
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:29,439
Speaker 3: That is a myth that is patently false. Period, take

1133
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 3: a leaf blower, if you've got nothing else, and blow

1134
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 3: a firebreak around a section of woods, and again, in

1135
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 3: the appropriate conditions, use prescribe fire, low intensity, prescribe fire

1136
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:48,759
Speaker 3: in those woods and watch the effect.

1137
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:55,400
Speaker 2: It is tremendous, great, great working orders for us there, Craig.

1138
01:11:55,960 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it seems it seems simple to me.

1139
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:04,000
Speaker 3: It seems overly simple, and a lot of times I'm

1140
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:07,360
Speaker 3: kind of talking about the same thing with different folks.

1141
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 3: But try those things. Work in your woods with a

1142
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:16,320
Speaker 3: little you know, a small chainsaw's not wearing you out,

1143
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:19,640
Speaker 3: Get a squirt bottle of herbicide, Spray the grass out

1144
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 3: of your fields, even if it's planted native grass spray

1145
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:27,360
Speaker 3: that you know, if you've got like a maximum of

1146
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,679
Speaker 3: thirty percent grass cover, I've said that so many times,

1147
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:33,320
Speaker 3: you're going to have a field that is much much

1148
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 3: better for the vast majority of wildlife that would be

1149
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:41,600
Speaker 3: using it. And try prescribe fire. You know, that's a

1150
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 3: big thing right there. Try and prescribe fire. There's a

1151
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 3: lot to that. I don't mean to make it sound

1152
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 3: overly simple, but I think those three things right there

1153
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 3: will really help change your management.

1154
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's actually for anyone who's interested, there is

1155
01:12:55,360 --> 01:13:01,040
Speaker 2: a learn and burn event occurring here in Michigan, put

1156
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:04,759
Speaker 2: on by the National Deer Association, actually on a property

1157
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,439
Speaker 2: that I purchased and managed and then we gave to

1158
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:09,360
Speaker 2: the National Deer Association the back forty. I don't know

1159
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:10,840
Speaker 2: if you're familiar, well you probably worked.

1160
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:14,120
Speaker 3: I saw that, isn't it in June? Is that correct?

1161
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:17,679
Speaker 2: I think it's July thirteenth is the number that's popping

1162
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:19,800
Speaker 2: into my head. But anybody interested in that should go

1163
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 2: to Deer Association dot com and you'll see information about that.

1164
01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:26,519
Speaker 2: It looks like a pretty great event in which there's

1165
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:29,120
Speaker 2: going to be a burn taking place on the property

1166
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 2: with folks there. I think Kip's going to be there

1167
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 2: and a few others helping walk through how to safely

1168
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 2: manage to prescribe burn, how to put together the plan,

1169
01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:38,800
Speaker 2: how to do the whole thing.

1170
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 3: That'd be tremendous, so that that'll be great.

1171
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:43,400
Speaker 2: That's in southern Michigan.

1172
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,720
Speaker 3: We do. We do something like that at most of

1173
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 3: the deer steward two courses. And you know, those typically

1174
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 3: are in the summertime, not all of them, but typically

1175
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:55,840
Speaker 3: in the summertime, and so it can be difficult to

1176
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:59,200
Speaker 3: burn some areas in the summertime. And so what we'll

1177
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 3: do is have the landowner or land manager spray a

1178
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 3: certain area of a field, you know, two to three

1179
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:09,680
Speaker 3: weeks before we get there. Because that way, you know,

1180
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 3: even if it rained the day before, if sun pops out,

1181
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:15,880
Speaker 3: you'll probably be able to burn dead vegetation in the field.

1182
01:14:16,160 --> 01:14:19,360
Speaker 3: And at least that allows people to see how to

1183
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:23,400
Speaker 3: start a fire, how to you know, the different firing techniques,

1184
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:25,840
Speaker 3: et cetera. So it's a very good thing.

1185
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:29,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, So to close this all out, Craig, if there

1186
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:32,640
Speaker 2: were folks who have been intrigued by this whole conversation

1187
01:14:33,479 --> 01:14:35,120
Speaker 2: and just and want to learn more, want to go

1188
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 2: down this path further. Are there any resources you recommend

1189
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:43,240
Speaker 2: for people to read, watch, listen to. I'd love for

1190
01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:45,200
Speaker 2: you to plug your own things and then also if

1191
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 2: there's anything that you've enjoyed reading or looking into yourself

1192
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:50,800
Speaker 2: that you might recommend to folks.

1193
01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 3: Well, you know, people can find just about whatever they

1194
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:58,120
Speaker 3: won't write at their fingertips pretty easily by searching various

1195
01:14:58,439 --> 01:14:59,599
Speaker 3: categories and topics.

1196
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 2: Know, I try to.

1197
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 3: Make available the publications that we've written on my web page.

1198
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,200
Speaker 3: Someone can go there and find all that. But you know,

1199
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:15,320
Speaker 3: I'm just one person. If you look at the people

1200
01:15:15,439 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 3: involved in wildlife and academia across the country, you know,

1201
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:24,120
Speaker 3: most people have a web page that's that's full of information.

1202
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:28,439
Speaker 3: I would encourage people to search different wildlife professors that

1203
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:32,720
Speaker 3: are doing research on different species and see what they

1204
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 3: have available. Most of the state wildlife agencies on their

1205
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:40,479
Speaker 3: websites have all kinds of information. And if you're interested

1206
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:46,800
Speaker 3: in fire, absolutely get in contact with your state forestry

1207
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:50,879
Speaker 3: agency and see if there is a prescribed fire council

1208
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:54,280
Speaker 3: in your state. Join that at least go you know,

1209
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:57,160
Speaker 3: to a to a meeting and see what all is

1210
01:15:57,520 --> 01:16:01,240
Speaker 3: said and done. Your eyes can be opened in a

1211
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 3: big way. And in these states many of them also

1212
01:16:04,360 --> 01:16:09,560
Speaker 3: offer the burned certification courses. Those are fantastic. There's just

1213
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:13,400
Speaker 3: tremendous information to be learned there, and that's a great

1214
01:16:13,439 --> 01:16:16,200
Speaker 3: way to get started with some experience and get to

1215
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:19,120
Speaker 3: know some other people who would be willing to help

1216
01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:20,679
Speaker 3: you go forward. Yeah.

1217
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:24,040
Speaker 2: Well, I will specifically plug a couple of your books here,

1218
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:28,160
Speaker 2: Guide to Wildlife Food Plots and Early Successional Plants Stellar,

1219
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:32,879
Speaker 2: as well as managing Early Successional Plant Communities for wildlife

1220
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:35,640
Speaker 2: in the Eastern US. If you're watching this, you just

1221
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:38,800
Speaker 2: saw those two covers. There's so much here. I've only

1222
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:42,080
Speaker 2: been able to scratch the surface as I've had various

1223
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:44,920
Speaker 2: projects and pulled out pages and red bits and pieces,

1224
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 2: but there is a lot there. When I started that

1225
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:52,839
Speaker 2: back forty project, I really found the Guide to Wildlife

1226
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:55,479
Speaker 2: Food Plots and Early Successional Plants super helpful because you've

1227
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 2: got this whole back section where you detail each specific species.

1228
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:03,640
Speaker 2: You know what's useful, How is this valuable to wildlife

1229
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 2: or not? When I was trying to understand on that property,

1230
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,200
Speaker 2: there was half of that property was old Fellow farm fields,

1231
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:11,880
Speaker 2: and so we had all these different things coming up

1232
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 2: in them, and I was trying to figure out is

1233
01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:15,240
Speaker 2: this a good thing, is a bad thing? Should it

1234
01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:17,640
Speaker 2: be sprying this? Should we be keeping it around? And

1235
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:21,920
Speaker 2: your book was tremendously useful in that, so highly recommend

1236
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:22,280
Speaker 2: those two.

1237
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:25,560
Speaker 3: Well, I'm very glad that you were able to use that,

1238
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 3: and I appreciate the kind words. The publication on Managing

1239
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:33,880
Speaker 3: Early Successional Communities is available on my web page, you know,

1240
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 3: and you can download a lot of this stuff, purchase

1241
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:39,760
Speaker 3: a hard copy if you want it, And please know

1242
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:41,800
Speaker 3: we're not not making any money off of this. It's

1243
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:45,840
Speaker 3: just going into an account to go back into reprinting

1244
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:49,560
Speaker 3: the food plots and early successional plants. It's gotten a

1245
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:53,519
Speaker 3: lot of attention, a lot of demand, and the copies

1246
01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:57,080
Speaker 3: are out right now, but I am hot on a

1247
01:17:57,240 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 3: revision and I'm hoping to have that out by the

1248
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:02,680
Speaker 3: end of the year, So if you're interested in that one,

1249
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 3: stay tuned. I'm adding as much as I can some

1250
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:12,479
Speaker 3: additional plant species profiles as well as different mixtures for

1251
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:17,600
Speaker 3: food plots and management techniques, you know, regenerative approaches or

1252
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:21,120
Speaker 3: have become very popular, so trying to add more with

1253
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:23,840
Speaker 3: that in mind. So a lot you know, if you

1254
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:26,640
Speaker 3: continue to do research and you continue to look at

1255
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:29,640
Speaker 3: others research, there's there's always new stuff coming out, and

1256
01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:32,879
Speaker 3: I try my best to keep things as fresh as possible,

1257
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:36,960
Speaker 3: but a lot of times it's hard to stay on here.

1258
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:41,960
Speaker 2: Well, we might have achieved a first within the genre

1259
01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:46,040
Speaker 2: of white tailed Deer and Wildlife Habitat Management podcast because

1260
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:49,719
Speaker 2: we had an entire episode without once talking about food plots.

1261
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:53,600
Speaker 2: So we might have just broke the internet with that.

1262
01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:57,160
Speaker 2: But maybe when that new book comes out, that next revision,

1263
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,200
Speaker 2: we'll have to have it come back on and talk

1264
01:18:59,240 --> 01:19:03,479
Speaker 2: through some of the new regenerative food plots philosophies and

1265
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:05,640
Speaker 2: ideas you write about there, because that's another thing that

1266
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:08,880
Speaker 2: I've found really interesting and explore more too.

1267
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:12,719
Speaker 3: So there's a well, you know, I like food plots.

1268
01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:16,639
Speaker 3: It's just very fun to plant something and watch animals respond.

1269
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 3: But you don't have to have food plots, you know,

1270
01:19:20,080 --> 01:19:25,320
Speaker 3: the management of your naturally occurring plant communities. You can

1271
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:28,599
Speaker 3: do everything that you need with those and see terrific

1272
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:29,679
Speaker 3: wildlife response.

1273
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:34,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, next time, and with that Craig, I'll let

1274
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:36,479
Speaker 2: you get back to your day. I can't think enough

1275
01:19:36,600 --> 01:19:37,519
Speaker 2: this was This is.

1276
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:40,439
Speaker 3: Great pleasure, pleasure talking to you. Mark.

1277
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:45,120
Speaker 2: All right, thank you for tuning in to today's show.

1278
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 2: Hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. As

1279
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 2: I mentioned there at the end, you definitely need to

1280
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:52,040
Speaker 2: go pick up a couple of Craig's books if this

1281
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:54,439
Speaker 2: is the kind of thing you're interested in the best

1282
01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:56,400
Speaker 2: way to do that is to go to his website

1283
01:19:56,439 --> 01:20:00,000
Speaker 2: over on the University of Tennessee website. It's a long complim,

1284
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:01,920
Speaker 2: ok you, Arel, So rather than giving you that you

1285
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:06,080
Speaker 2: orl I would just say google his name, Craig Harper, Tennessee.

1286
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:09,080
Speaker 2: If you do that, the first link that shows up

1287
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 2: for me at least is that website. Click that. Then

1288
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:13,920
Speaker 2: you'll see all the books, all the publications, links to

1289
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:18,160
Speaker 2: umpteen different articles he's written, all sorts of studies. He's published.

1290
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:21,000
Speaker 2: A tremendous amount of information out there for you if

1291
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:24,000
Speaker 2: you want to learn more, and Craig has lots to offer.

1292
01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:27,320
Speaker 2: So that's it for today. Thanks for joining in, Thanks

1293
01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:29,960
Speaker 2: for being here with me throughout this habitat month. As

1294
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:34,599
Speaker 2: we've explored this kind of habitat management beyond the norm

1295
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:37,200
Speaker 2: in the deer world. I hope that you've, you know,

1296
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:40,040
Speaker 2: maybe been inspired to try a few new things, maybe

1297
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:44,720
Speaker 2: been encouraged to expand outside of what you're comfortable with

1298
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:45,960
Speaker 2: or what you've done in the past.

1299
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:46,880
Speaker 3: I know I have.

1300
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:50,559
Speaker 2: I'm excited about it. And so with that all said,

1301
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:53,920
Speaker 2: until next time, thank you for being here, and stay

1302
01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 2: wired to hunt.