1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the short Stuff. I'm Josh, and 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: there's Chuck. Jerry's here, Dave's here, you know how Dave's 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: here and this is short stuff. 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 2: That's right. This is a shorty from Dave Bruce, still 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 2: a contributor to houstie works dot com, which is great. 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 2: And this one everyone, we want to issue a big 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: trigger warning. It is about the Aoki Gahara Forest in Japan. 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: It has another name that people have called it the 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 2: suicide forest, and we're going to be talking about that 10 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 2: in this episode. And obviously that's a very touchy subject. 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: We don't want anyone to be unnecessarily triggered by it, 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 2: So don't listen if it's not your jam. And obviously, 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: if you have some deep seated issues going on in 14 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: your life and you've had these kinds of thoughts, you 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 2: should call nine to eight eight, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. 16 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, good, good call, Chuck, get a good call. 17 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: That's right. 18 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: So one of the other names for the Aoki Gahara 19 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: Forest is the Jukai, which means the sea of trees, 20 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: and it's because it's a huge swath of forest just 21 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: in the uniformous forest. Yeah, that's that flanks Mount Fuji, 22 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 1: has beautiful views of Mount Fuji. It's about a couple 23 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: hours drive from Tokyo, and I think it built up 24 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: over like a lava flow, that from an eruption in 25 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: eight sixty four. And one of the reasons that it's 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: it's famous not just for its views of Mount Fuji, 27 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: but because, like you said, it's come to be known 28 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: as the suicide Forest, because so many people travel to 29 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: Aoki Gihara and never come out on purpose. 30 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: That's right. There are no statistics anymore, and I think 31 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: this is great that the government of Japan has stopped. 32 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: I don't know if they stopped counting, but they at 33 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: the very least stopped listing out statistic sticks on the 34 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: number of suicides there. I think there were. They stopped 35 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: that in sort of the mid twenty teens, but needless 36 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: to say, it had happened a lot, and so they said, 37 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: we're not going to, you know, publish these numbers anymore, 38 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: which is I think the right thing to do. But 39 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: where this all came from is sort of an interesting 40 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: story because no one knows exactly what it is. We 41 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 2: have some decent ideas. It's probably from these two books. 42 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: That came along much later. But for a while people 43 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: said it might have been this practice from like when 44 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: was this actually. 45 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: The show kusimbutsu. 46 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, Adka had a date on that. 47 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, Chuck, but it said that it's been 48 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: going on for at least a thousand years, or that 49 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: it went on for a thousand years, so it went 50 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: back quite quite a while. 51 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, but what we're talking about is a certain sect 52 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: of Buddhist monks, aescetic Buddhist monks who would go to 53 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: forrests to meditate eventually until they died. They would supposedly 54 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: go for like a thousand days. They would subsist on 55 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: leaves and bark, and then they would bury themselves alive 56 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: and scare quotes to continue that meditation in an underground 57 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: crypt in order to sort of mummify themselves while still alive. 58 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 2: And this is something that really happened. They have some 59 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: of these mummies on display around Japan, even though scientists 60 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: now think that they were mummified after they had passed away. 61 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it wasn't just a process of I'm going 62 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: to go bury myself in an underground crypt and stop 63 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: eating and drinking like this went on like you said, 64 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: for a thousand days, like almost three years. Yeah, and 65 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: they would purposely, like eat very little amounts and drink 66 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: very little amounts to mummify themselves, right, rather than just die. 67 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. And so this idea, some people for a while said, 68 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: maybe is where people got the idea that this forest 69 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: is where you might want to go to do this. 70 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: I don't think that's probably true, but maybe we should 71 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: take a break and we'll talk about these couple of 72 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: books that are probably where this idea came from. All right, 73 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty there's a short story written by a gentleman name. 74 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 2: How would you pronounce that first name? Say, Echo Matsumoto, Yeah, yeah, 75 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 2: all right, and it was called Tower of Waves. Always 76 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: depend on you for Japanese pronunciation. 77 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: Well, then technically it's Matsumoto. What I say, I'm just 78 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: saying if you're depending No, I don't want to misguide you. 79 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, that's fine. Why are you hitting me with 80 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 2: the ruler right now? It was called Tower of Waves, 81 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: and it's basically like a Romeo and Juliet esque plot, 82 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: and that there are these young kids in love who 83 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 2: are kept apart by something they can't control, and in 84 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: the last scene, the woman writes a farewell letter it's 85 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: very clearly Romeo and Juliet and takes a bottle of 86 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: pills and goes into that very forest to die. And 87 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 2: so a lot of people say, well, this is the 88 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 2: actual you know, for the first time that forest has 89 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 2: been linked to a suicide, at least in literature. 90 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's probably part of it for sure. But 91 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: I mean in the same way that the so kushimbutsu 92 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: maybe gave people the idea of going off to the 93 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: woods to die, and this story gave them the idea 94 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: of going specifically the Aokigahara forest to die. There was 95 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: so we just have to say real quick, the West, 96 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: in particular uses the Japanese approach to suicide is kind 97 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: of like a Pureian lens to like look through and 98 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: be like, wow, this is like, can we can shed 99 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: our own baggage or morality about suicide, because to us, 100 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: Japanese people are like, sure, kill yourself, that's your own 101 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: that's your jam, right, and that's not fair. That's not 102 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: how Japanese culture actually views suicide, and in particular, modern 103 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: Japanese culture abhors suicide and takes pains to prevent it's 104 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: it's a scar on the national psyche. But back in 105 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: the day, we would kind of look in on Japan 106 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: and see that they had like actual rashes of like 107 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: mass hysteria that would lead teenage girls to go jump 108 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: in volcanoes, which happened from the twenties to the thirties. 109 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: There was one girl in particular whose name was Kiyoko, 110 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: and she threw herself into a volcano, an active volcan 111 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 1: know Mount Mahara that wasn't in Ioka Gahara forests, but 112 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: it was another example of people going to nature to 113 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: take their own lives. And there was an article in 114 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: Time from nineteen thirty five that basically almost tongue in cheek, 115 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: covered this strange phenomenon in Japan. It really it's not 116 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: very kind at all, especially if you step back and 117 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: consider the material. But it's a good example of how 118 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: we just kind of misunderstand the Japanese approach to suicide. 119 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: They care about people taking their lives, there's just there's 120 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: not the like religious morality attached to it. It's still tragic, 121 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: it's just not you know, a slap in the face 122 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: of God if you do that. 123 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 2: In their culture, Yeah, and the government has really come 124 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: a long way and messaging this stuff out. They have 125 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: their own, of course, prevention in crisis hotlines and things 126 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: like that. In this forest. They have trained the employees 127 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 2: that work there and the volunteers who work there to 128 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 2: look out for people who maybe be by themselves or 129 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: look troubled. They have security cameras and stuff like that. 130 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 2: They have messages in this park which we'll get to 131 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: at the end, like the sign at the end. But 132 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: another book that came along that probably had a lot 133 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: to do with it as well, was written in nineteen 134 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: ninety three in Japanese only called The Complete Suicide Manual 135 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 2: by Wataru Serami Sarumimi Sarumimi. 136 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: When I'm not doing very well, well, it's like su 137 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: right yeah, but that are really trips you up, so 138 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: you're like tou rumy, but you have to say it 139 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: like suui, and it just comes out like you're like 140 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:51,719 Speaker 1: blowing a raspberry. 141 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: Right, I gotcha. This is from nineteen ninety three, like 142 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: I said, and it is, you know, there's no other 143 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 2: way to say it than it is a sort of 144 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: step by step ins and out manual of suicide. Whether 145 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 2: it has merit what the drawbacks might be, different ways 146 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 2: that that can happen in order to be successful. And 147 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: there is a portion of that book that talks about 148 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 2: this forest and as the perfect place to die, and 149 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: some of these manuals apparently have been found with people 150 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: who have gone to this forest to do just that. 151 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: And you know, like, here's this beautiful, quiet forest. Your 152 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 2: family's not going to stumble upon you, right, You'll just 153 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 2: go on this trip and not come back. 154 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: And that's the thing. I think a lot of people 155 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 1: who do this consider like they're considering their families or 156 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: their friends. They're sparing them having to find them. But 157 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: somebody else is going to probably find you, and they're 158 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: going to be scarred by it. So it's not like 159 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: this is this doesn't affect anybody, you know, Like it 160 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: definitely affects the people who live near the forest, the 161 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: people who volunteer to go clean up the forest, and 162 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: the police who have to process these bodies too. 163 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 2: So you know, that's sort of the long and short 164 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 2: of it. There we mentioned a sign because they've taken 165 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: great measures now to have more awareness on suicide in 166 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 2: Japan and especially around the forest, but there are signs 167 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 2: in the forest and as you enter the forests that 168 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 2: say your life is a precious gift from your parents. 169 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: Please think about your parents, siblings and children. Don't keep 170 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 2: it to yourself, talk about your troubles, and then has 171 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: their suicide helpline number included, which. 172 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: Is great, It really is. So. Yeah, that's the Ioki 173 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: Gahada Forest, one of the most unusual places in Japan 174 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: and also one of the most beautiful I've heard. 175 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, the pictures are amazing. 176 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess that's it, right, That's right, okay, everybody, Well, 177 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 1: then short stuff is out. 178 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 179 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 180 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.