1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. Bloomberg's David Goura sits 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: down with former Canadian finance minister and Liberal Party leader 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: candidate Christia Freeland. 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 2: If President Trump follows through on this threat to impose 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 2: twenty five percent tariff across the board on Canadian goods, 6 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 2: how should Canada respond? 7 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 3: Well, I think we should start responding today. I think 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 3: that we should publish for consultation a retaliation list. I 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 3: think it should be massive, right, it should be two 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 3: hundred billion. That's not saying that we retaliate at two 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 3: hundred billion, but giving us like a menu, like a 12 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 3: s'morgus board of choices. And we need to publish it now, 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 3: because when President Trump says America first, I believe them, 14 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 3: and I believe that he doesn't care that much if 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 3: Canadian politicians are jumping around banging their fists on the table, 16 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 3: but he cares about Americans. And I want Wisconsin dairy 17 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 3: farmers to see themselves on that list and to be 18 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 3: calling the White House and to be saying, mister President. 19 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 4: We elected you, but now it's gonna be terrible. We're 20 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 4: not gonna be able to sell stuff to Canada. 21 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 3: I want Michigan blue collar workers who make washing machines 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 3: in Michigan to see their washing machines on the list 23 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 3: and to call at the White House and say, mister President, 24 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 3: what the heck here? 25 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 4: We love selling stuff to Canada. Do not do this. 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 3: And the thing that I think can sometimes be missed, 27 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 3: especially in how Americans think about this, is. 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 4: I think, if you will permit me, David, to put 29 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 4: myself in the mind. 30 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 3: Of American I hope you guys don't think about Canada 31 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 3: very much. I think when you think about Canada, maybe 32 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,639 Speaker 3: you think about hockey. Maybe you think we're quite nice, 33 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 3: and we say please and thank you. 34 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 4: And probably probably we say sorry a little more than 35 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 4: than you guys would. 36 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 3: And I just don't think you think of us as 37 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 3: major players, and that is fine with us. But what 38 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 3: you miss in that calculation about Canada is uniquely in 39 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 3: the whole world, we have economic leverage over you. You 40 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 3: guys are not a big trading nation, but insofar as 41 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 3: you export stuff, you sell it to your Canadian pals. 42 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 3: We are a larger market for the United States than China, Japan, 43 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 3: the UK, and France combined. 44 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 4: So actually we do matter for you. 45 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 3: And one thing that I love about Americans is you 46 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 3: guys have a true entrepreneurial spirit and commercial spirit. You 47 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 3: are the guys who say the customer is always right. Well, 48 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 3: guess what, we're your main customer. And I think Canadians 49 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 3: now need to be reminding not so much the White House, 50 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 3: but all those great Americans who sell us your great 51 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 3: American stuff. 52 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 4: And I think what we need to be saying is 53 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 4: we love your stuff. You guys make great stuff. 54 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 3: That's why we buy so much of it, and really, 55 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 3: don't you want to keep selling it to us. 56 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: A criticism I hear of your approach is by doing this, 57 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: by coming up with that menu or that long list, 58 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: you're going to further raise the hackles of President Trump. 59 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 2: You're kind of putting more of a target on your back. 60 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: What do you say to those critics? Who are you? Then? 61 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 4: You know? 62 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 3: I have a lot of respect for President Trump. I 63 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 3: think he has been throughout his career underestimated. I think 64 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 3: he is a really smart guy. And one of the 65 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 3: things that I've observed is I think he's going to 66 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 3: be smarter in this administration than he was in the 67 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 3: first one. Someone I have good relations. This may surprise 68 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 3: you David with a lot of people close to the president. 69 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 3: One of them actually was in my house here in 70 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: Toronto for supper a few weeks ago. I'm not going 71 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: to tell you no, of course, I'm not going to 72 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 3: tell you he won't come back for supper, right, but 73 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 3: he said, you know, the President has spent since the 74 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 3: election weeks and weeks and weeks hanging out with really 75 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 3: smart people, and he has some really good and clear ideas. 76 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 3: So I take the President very, very seriously as a 77 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 3: smart guy actually. 78 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 4: With a clear world view. 79 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 3: I also observe his negotiating style. And what I observe, 80 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 3: which I think everybody sees, is this is not a 81 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 3: guy for whom. 82 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 4: Weakness is attractive. 83 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 3: I would say for President Trump, weakness is a provocation. 84 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 3: I think capitulation is not a negotiating strategy with him. 85 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 3: This person close to the President said to me, this 86 00:04:57,880 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: was before the inauguration. 87 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 4: He said, Trump thinks it's just great. 88 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: He's going around yelling at the world, threatening the world, 89 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 3: and countries are just tripping over themselves to like preconcede, 90 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 3: they're negotiating with themselves. He's not even president, and they're 91 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 3: offering him a million things and the President, quite rightly, 92 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 3: by the way, thinks this is great. He hasn't done 93 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 3: a single thing, and the world is tripping over itself 94 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 3: to give him stuff. 95 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 4: Now, I truly believe. 96 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 3: That Canada and the United States today have a really fabulous, 97 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 3: mutually beneficial win win productive relationship, and I think. 98 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 4: We need to and should have that in the future. 99 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 3: No less a president than Ronald Reagan described our relationship 100 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 3: as the best most productive relationship over a long period 101 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: of history of two countries in the world. So I 102 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 3: think a win win is possible essential, But I think 103 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:06,239 Speaker 3: the way you get there generally in life, but particularly 104 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 3: with this president, is to say to him, you know what, really, 105 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: pushing us around is not a good idea. And critically, 106 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 3: what we need to be doing is getting people in 107 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:23,239 Speaker 3: the United States to understand that. Because I also really 108 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 3: understand and I respect this about the president. 109 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 4: The people he listens to the most are Americans. So 110 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 4: the people he's going to listen to, David, are your listeners. 111 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 3: What Canada needs to do is make the case to 112 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 3: American exporters, make the case to American business leaders, people 113 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: who are watching the stock market, as President Trump does 114 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 3: very carefully, that actually you have a great relationship with Canada. 115 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 4: Why would you want to miss that up? 116 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 2: Can I ask you what maybe a dumb sounding question, 117 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: that is, there are no dumb questions, thank you. What 118 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: does President Trump want here? We are just a few 119 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: days away from this February first deadline that he's put 120 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 2: in place. He's talked a lot about traffic of drugs, 121 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: He's talked about immigration. Do you have a clear sense 122 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: of what would have to happen for him to forego 123 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:12,679 Speaker 2: putting those tariffs in place? 124 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 4: No, that is not a dumb question at all. It 125 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 4: is an excellent question. 126 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 3: And I am not going to presume to know what 127 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 3: President Trump wants. I think that that is up to 128 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 3: him and the very smart people around him to say. 129 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 4: But based on. 130 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 3: Past behavior, based on what we're seeing, I think President 131 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 3: Trump is seeking to accomplish three things. First of all, 132 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 3: he would just like Canada to negotiate with itself as 133 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 3: much as possible, and he'd like us to anti up 134 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 3: tons of stuff. 135 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 4: So that's number one. 136 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 3: I think number two, what President Trump is trying to do, 137 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 3: quite intentionally, is create uncertainty for investors in every country. 138 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 4: Other than the United States. 139 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 3: He wants to make investors when they're thinking about where 140 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 3: do you put that the next dollar to think, we 141 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 3: have no idea what President Trump is going to do. 142 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 3: We know he wants us to invest in the US. 143 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 3: We don't know what he's going to do to any 144 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: other country. So what the heck, Let's put our money 145 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 3: in the United States. And that is not a dumb strategy, right, 146 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 3: you know, just by saying a few things on social media, 147 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 3: you automatically suck capital into the United States. I think 148 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 3: the third thing that the president wants to do is 149 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 3: on cole as we would say here, and I think 150 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 3: that you know, as Canadians, we think about Canada US 151 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 3: very much, but I know Americans, you guys don't wake 152 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 3: up in the morning and think, hey, how is our 153 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 3: relationship with the Canadians going. And President Trump, I do think, 154 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 3: has clearly elaborated and sophisticated worldview of what he wants 155 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 3: to do. And it seems pretty clear to me that 156 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 3: he has come to the conclusion that if he can 157 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 3: show the rest of the world how mean and tough 158 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 3: he can be with his closest partners and allies, how 159 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 3: much he's prepared to beat up on those really nice Canadians, 160 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 3: who throughout history have been great partners for the US. 161 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 3: How do you think that's going to make the Chinese feel? So? 162 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 3: I think there's that calculation as well, that's kind of on. 163 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 4: The tough guy side of things. 164 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 3: But I do want to offer a positive opportunity that 165 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 3: I think is in the President's mind as well, maybe 166 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 3: two positive opportunities to positive exit ramps. 167 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 4: The first one is I do. 168 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 3: Think the President is the very concerned about US security 169 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 3: security for the USA, economic security, but also national security. 170 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 3: And in that context, kind of locking down your neighbors, 171 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 3: locking down your continent makes a lot of sense. Locking 172 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 3: down your continent by saying, hey, Canadians be the fifty 173 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 3: first state. I really want to assure you, my American 174 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 3: friends and neighbors. 175 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 4: It's not going to work. 176 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 3: That is going to get our hackles up, and we're 177 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 3: going to say a stronger no than you might ever imagine. 178 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 3: But locking down your security by saying hey, Canada, let's 179 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 3: work together on continental economic and physical security, You're going 180 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 3: to find everyone in Canada saying yeah, we'll sign up 181 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 3: to that. 182 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 4: And that has been the. 183 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 3: Canadian choice throughout history. I mean, the whole reason Canada 184 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 3: is a member of the G seven. Is because you 185 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 3: guys said, we don't want to be alone with the Europeans. 186 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 4: We want to have our Canadian pals with US. 187 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 3: And where Canada feels our interests are aligned with the US, 188 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 3: we are an outstanding partner. 189 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 4: We can be your wingman. 190 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 3: So on that kind of continental security point, we can 191 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 3: be really helpful. And then I think there's a second 192 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 3: exit ramp, a second win win scenario that I believe 193 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 3: Scott Besant's confirmation as Secretary of the Treasury really opens 194 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 3: up for the US and for Canada. Scott Bessant is 195 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 3: an incredibly sophisticated global economic thinker. 196 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,359 Speaker 4: He is a man who has. 197 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 3: A very well worked out view of the global macro 198 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 3: not just environment, but the global macro system. And he 199 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 3: is someone who's spent his career thinking about moments when 200 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 3: that system changes. In fact, you could say that his 201 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 3: investing strategy has been figure out where the imbalances are 202 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: and invest there. Figure out where the changes are going 203 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 3: to be, and invest there. 204 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 4: And I do believe that. 205 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 3: It's right to point to there being global macro imbalances 206 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 3: which are a problem for the whole world. 207 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 4: But particularly the US. 208 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 3: The fact is the global economy today is run based 209 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 3: on the US consumer. It is run based on incredibly 210 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 3: strong US domestic demand. 211 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 4: And what that is requiring. 212 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 3: Is that you guys run just like eye popping fiscal 213 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 3: deficits which at a certain point sure are going to 214 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 3: become unsustainable. In the meantime, China has been running notwithstanding 215 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 3: frequent protestations. This is going to change an economic system 216 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 3: that is based on selling stuff to the world and 217 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 3: not having strong domestic demand. And China over and over 218 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 3: again promises and fails to have strong domestic demand in China. 219 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 3: I think it is entirely possible that the historic role 220 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 3: that Scott Bessant has signed up for is to be 221 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 3: the guy who writes those global financial and trade imbalances 222 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 3: a kind of Plaza Accords for our time. And Canada 223 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 3: can be a valuable and intelligent partner for the US 224 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 3: in the effort to rebalance the global economy. 225 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 4: We're chairing the G seven this year. Year we get it. 226 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 4: And that that is where I. 227 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 3: See two kind of quite new and important win wins 228 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 3: for Team Trump. That Canada can offer so continental security, 229 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 3: national and economic help you guys with this great and 230 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 3: essential project of rebalancing the global economy, of writing those 231 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 3: global financial imbalances. But we can't do it if you 232 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 3: keep beating up on us and like slapping us in 233 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: the face. 234 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 2: A cornerstone of your campaign is you've had experience dealing 235 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: with President Trump before. You know how he operates, You 236 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: know his negotiating strategy. And I think we could both 237 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: say this isn't the same playbook as last time. Maybe 238 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 2: it's a revised version of it. He wasn't talking about 239 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 2: subsuming Greenland, or resting control of the Panama Canal back, 240 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: or making Canada the fifty first state the last time 241 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 2: he was in office. I am curious how you watched 242 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: what unfolded over the weekend, the President making a threat 243 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 2: against Columbia and in the span of really nine hours, 244 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: going from saying he was going to levy tariffs of 245 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: twenty five or fifty percent to removing them completely and 246 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: Columbia essentially folding in the face of that. What does 247 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 2: that tell you about his tax his strategy this time around. 248 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: Well, I look at it more from the Colombian perspective, 249 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 3: and I would say, never make a threat you're not 250 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:31,239 Speaker 3: prepared to act on. And so from the Canadian perspective, 251 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 3: when we put retaliatory tariffs on the table, we as 252 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: a country need to be fully prepared to act on them, 253 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 3: and I think we are. 254 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 4: I hope it. 255 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 3: Doesn't come to that, I really really do, and I 256 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 3: think it would be better for Canada and the US 257 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 3: not to come to it. So that's what it tells 258 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 3: me from the Canadian perspective. What it tells me from 259 00:15:52,480 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 3: the US perspective is unless you have leverage of some kind, 260 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 3: the president is not going to care about you. And 261 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 3: that's why what gives me such medium term confidence about 262 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 3: the Canadian position is we have leverage, and we have 263 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 3: negative leverage. If you hit us, we uniquely in the 264 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 3: whole world, do have the economic capacity to hit back, 265 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 3: and we also have positive leverage. There is a lot 266 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 3: that we can offer you, guys. And I think, like 267 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 3: broadly in the United States, I think Americans know that. 268 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 4: Like as we said at the beginning, David. 269 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 3: Americans, I don't believe spend a ton of time thinking 270 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: about Canada. But I think when you think about Canada, 271 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 3: you think our friends to the north, and I think 272 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 3: you know if you want to pull back. And I 273 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 3: do really think President Trump has been taking. 274 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 4: A true historical view of the US. 275 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 3: I truly do, I truly do, and I think he 276 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 3: sees himself as someone who is president at a hinge 277 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 3: moment in history, and he wants to take advantage of that. 278 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 3: So if you take that kind of a perspective on 279 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 3: the Canada US relationship, I think what you will see 280 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 3: is the strength and the prosperity of the United States 281 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 3: has to a very significant degree been based on the 282 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 3: fact you've never had to worry about the North. You know, 283 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 3: you have a five and a half thousand mile border 284 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 3: with US, you never have to worry about it in 285 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 3: a meaningful way. Compare yourselves to a European power right 286 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 3: that has constantly in its history, had to worry about 287 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 3: its borders, had to worry about being invaded, had to 288 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 3: worry about spending money for its own continental defense. 289 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 4: You guys have never had to do that. 290 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 3: And better yet, you've had a great economic relationship with 291 00:17:58,359 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 3: those guys to the north. 292 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 4: I haven't even talked about energy. 293 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 3: Energy security is a critical element of national security. 294 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 4: And if you doubt me, just ask the Germans. 295 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 3: Right, building their economy based on cheap Russian gas has 296 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 3: turned out to be a mistake of historic significance. 297 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: It's curbing energy on the menu that you would propose 298 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 2: the government may. 299 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 3: I think we as a country need to be prepared 300 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 3: to use all the tools in our toolbox. I also 301 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 3: think that we need to have a strategy which is united, 302 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 3: strong and smart. So any measures we take, we need 303 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 3: to have the home team together. 304 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 4: One of the things I learned I was trade minister 305 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 4: for a while. 306 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 3: I negotiated trade deal with the EU and we renegotiated NAFTA, 307 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 3: which is President. 308 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 2: Trump's trade We're happy with it for a time. 309 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 4: He said it's the best deal in the world. 310 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 3: One of the things I learned, taught by Canada's brilliant 311 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 3: professional trade negotiators, is the most important thing in a 312 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 3: trade negotiation is be sure the home team is aligned. 313 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 4: And that is a real priority for me. 314 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 3: Maybe of less interest to your American listeners, but here 315 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 3: in Canada, the place I would start is guess all 316 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 3: on the same page, working together. 317 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you lastly about that before I 318 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 2: move on to other topics. Do you feel that Canadians 319 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 2: understand the gravity of this moment? And I saw the 320 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 2: Bank of Canada was out with a projection that GDP 321 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: could take a six percent hit if these tariffs going 322 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 2: into place. You certainly know this Prime Minister well, have 323 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: worked with them closely, and I wonder if you think 324 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: that he and the government now is prepared to take 325 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: the kind of hardline approach that you're advocating for here 326 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: in the context of this campaign. Is your read that 327 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 2: the government is approaching it with kind of a commensurate 328 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: level of seriousness, And I guess aggressiveness might be the word. 329 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 3: You started by asking me about Canadians, and I think 330 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 3: that is actually the most important question, and I am 331 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 3: absolutely certain that Canadians understand how serious this is. Like 332 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 3: I've been traveling around the country a lot. As you 333 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 3: may have heard, we have a campaign for the leadership 334 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 3: of the Liberal Party right now. So I've been traveling 335 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 3: around a lot, and everywhere I go, people come up 336 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 3: to me on the street in you know, malls, on 337 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 3: airplanes and airports, and the first thing every single person 338 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 3: says is what are we going to do with President Trump? 339 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 3: And do you know, be sure to tell them Canada 340 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 3: is not for sale, Our sovereignty is not negotiable. So 341 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 3: I think Americans are going to find that Canadians are 342 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 3: more deeply patriotic than you may expect. We are not 343 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 3: a country that you know, tends to always wear our 344 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 3: flight on our heart and wrap ourselves in the flag. 345 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 3: But I think now is a moment when you're going 346 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 3: to see us doing it, and you're going to see 347 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 3: us doing it, you. 348 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 4: Know, more in sorrow than in anger. 349 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 3: You're going to see us saying, guys, we actually like you. 350 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 3: Let's keep a good thing going. But I think you're 351 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 3: going to see a very very deep Canadian commitment to 352 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 3: saying we are Canadian and we are not going to 353 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 3: sacrifice one millimeter of our sovereignty, including our economic sovereignty. 354 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 2: That's the Canadian side writ large. How about the government's position, 355 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: How do you feel like they're approaching this and is 356 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 2: it sufficient enough in terms of its aggressiveness in the 357 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 2: face of the threat from President Trump. 358 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 3: What I'm trying to do now that I'm a leadership 359 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 3: candidate and not in the government, is I would say, 360 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 3: help to stiffen the national spine. And I've been laying 361 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 3: out some very clear negotiating ideas that we need to 362 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 3: put forward, and I'm glad when I see them adopted 363 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 3: by the government. I do have to say the premiers 364 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 3: are playing a really important role. I'm in touch with 365 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 3: many of them, and that has been a very important 366 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 3: part of Team Canada. And I also want to give 367 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 3: a shout out to labor leaders and business leaders. The 368 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 3: way we succeeded in NAFTA I or in Trump one 369 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 3: was by building a true Team Canada approach, which was 370 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 3: premiers of provinces and territories across the country. It was 371 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 3: business leaders, it was labor leaders, it was indigenous leaders. 372 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 4: And that's what we're going to have to do this time. 373 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 2: I want to ask you about the letter that you 374 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 2: wrote resigning from your post. It had this kind of 375 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: seismic effect, certainly within your party and government. We felt 376 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 2: it in the States as well. 377 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 4: That's for Canadian political events, isn't it. 378 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 3: I heard a lot of ble saying, wow, Canada, like 379 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 3: you're usually so boring, You've actually become inter but for ourselves. 380 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 2: Huge and we're here talking in part because of that. Obviously, 381 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: this campaign is a result of that. Did you know 382 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 2: at the time it was going to have that kind 383 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: of seismic effect that it did? 384 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 4: Oh? Absolutely not. No. 385 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 3: I mean when I wrote my letter and published it 386 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 3: that was on a Monday. I assumed that on the Tuesday, 387 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 3: Mark Kearney would be sworn in as Finance Minister, and 388 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 3: I think that's what the Prime Minister assumed to. 389 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 2: Something that was in that letter was an impression that 390 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 2: you need to do more to keep your fiscal powder dry. 391 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 2: As you look back on the last two fiscal years, 392 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 2: do you regret not doing more to kind of shore 393 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: up the fiscal position of this country. 394 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 3: Well, as you know David visiting US from the United States, 395 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 3: Canada is in an outstanding fiscal position compared to you guys. 396 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 3: I mean, you guys are looking at deficits seven plus. 397 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 4: We're looking at. 398 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 3: A deficit, you know, one in a bit and are 399 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 3: we have a triple A credit. Our debt to GDP 400 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 3: ratio is the lowest in the g seven. 401 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 4: Hugely lower than yours. 402 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 3: So Canada, you know, the fundamental fiscal position of Canada 403 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:18,239 Speaker 3: is strong. What I did believe in the fall, and 404 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 3: this conviction became stronger first with President Trumps selection and 405 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 3: then with his twenty five percent tariff threat, was that 406 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 3: we had to as a country turn all of our 407 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 3: attention to that threat. We had to recognize that President 408 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 3: Trump was not just blustering. 409 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 4: You know. 410 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 3: I'm one of the people who takes him very seriously 411 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 3: and sees him as a very smart guy who has 412 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 3: a thought out plan. That is what I saw then, 413 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 3: that is what I see now, And so it was 414 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 3: very clear to me that as a government, you know, 415 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,479 Speaker 3: it had to be like heart and nerve and sinew like. 416 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 3: Everything had to be focused on that and writing checks 417 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 3: that would cost US six billion dollars as this you know, 418 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 3: train was coming down the track, to me, was irresponsible. 419 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 2: You vote Mark Harney a minute ago, and he's committed 420 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,360 Speaker 2: to bouncing the budget. I guess, with running small deficits 421 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 2: from time to time, are you prepared to also call 422 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 2: for bounced budgets? And if so, on what timeline. 423 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 3: I believe that we need to be fiscally responsible absolutely. 424 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 3: I believe that Canada's triple A credit rating is absolutely 425 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 3: essential when it comes to, you know, where our. 426 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 4: Fiscal position is. 427 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 3: Let's see what happens on February first, because and in 428 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 3: the weeks to come. I do think when we talk 429 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 3: about the impact of tariffs on Canada, I am medium term, 430 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 3: one one thousand percent, one million percent a google percent 431 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 3: confident that Canada will that Canadians will stand up for Canada, 432 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 3: that we will get through this and we will get 433 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 3: to a win win position with the US. I'm to 434 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 3: me that is absolutely clear, because that's what. 435 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 4: The economic fundamentals say. 436 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 3: But I am also not naive about how hard it's 437 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 3: going to be along the way. This is going to 438 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 3: be a very challenging economic situation for US. Tariffs will 439 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 3: bring in revenues for sure, our counter tariffs will our 440 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 3: retaliatory tariffs, and we need to use that money to 441 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 3: support Canadian families, to support Canadian businesses, but it will 442 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 3: be also an economic hit to Canada, and so I 443 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 3: think we need to see where that goes before committing 444 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 3: to any specific targets. It's just like with COVID, Right 445 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 3: Like during COVID, we did the right thing as a country. 446 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 3: We did spend money to support Canadians, to support Canadian families, 447 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 3: and the result in Canada was an economy that came 448 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 3: through it in much better shape than we came through 449 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 3: the two thousand and eight financial crisis, and actually. 450 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 4: A really strong public health response. 451 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 3: You know, if Canada had had US levels of mortality, 452 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 3: an additional seventy thousand Canadians would have died. That is 453 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 3: the size of you know, a Canadian city like Fredericton 454 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 3: that many people gone. 455 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 4: So yeah, I have. 456 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 2: A couple of questions about revenues, and the first has 457 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 2: to do with the capital gains tax height that you 458 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 2: introduced and supported. You've since come back on that. It's 459 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 2: not something that you support putting in place now. I 460 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 2: gather because of the context we're in, Donald Trumping reelected 461 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 2: the prospect of these tariffs. Part of that was raising revenue. 462 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 2: I gathered nineteen billion Canadian dollars over five years. How 463 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 2: do you replace that if that doesn't come to pass. 464 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 3: Let me just start by saying, you know, as I 465 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 3: said about my views during the fall, I take President 466 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 3: Trump really seriously. Uh, and I do believe we need 467 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 3: to be building our policies given that new reality. I 468 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 3: think as Canadians, by the way, we need to see 469 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 3: some real opportunities in that new reality. So, you know, 470 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 3: there are some sort of hoary old chestnuts of Canadian 471 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 3: public policy stuff that we all kind of know would 472 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 3: be a good idea to do, but it's just so hard. 473 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 3: So if you were a Canadian journalist, you would know 474 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 3: inter provincial trade the holy grail of every single Canadian 475 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 3: public policy thinker. 476 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 4: Very easy to say, it's. 477 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 3: A good idea, hard to do with, and easy to 478 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 3: get the idea right. Like, if another country is threatening 479 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 3: trade measures against US, maybe a good place to start is. 480 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 4: Let's trade with each other for goodness sake. 481 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 3: And so I think now, in the face of the 482 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 3: US threat, it's a great opportunity to do that, and 483 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 3: I think you're really seeing some national will around that. 484 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 3: I think it's a great opportunity to say, guys, we 485 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 3: have to stop getting in our own way. We have 486 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 3: to make it easier to build stuff fast in Canada. 487 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 3: We have to cut red tape and get big projects 488 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 3: built because. 489 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 4: We're going to need it. 490 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,959 Speaker 3: So I do want to be clear that there are 491 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 3: some opportunities and you know, in terms of where are 492 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,719 Speaker 3: we going to find revenue. I'm not unveiling all of 493 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 3: my platform here today with you, David, even though I 494 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 3: am enjoying the conversation immensely, But we have some really 495 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 3: good ideas that I look forward to sharing with Canadians. 496 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 2: There's a fiscal question about your about face on that 497 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 2: particular tax. I think there's a larger question about the 498 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 2: way that you. You advocated for it in months past, 499 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 2: so you kind of couched it in moral terms. You 500 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: had a message to the wealthiest people in this country 501 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: that this was something that they had to do on 502 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 2: moral grounds. There shouldn't be hungry kids going to school, 503 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 2: for instance. For somebody who listened to you talking about 504 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 2: it in that way and sees you moving away from it, 505 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: what do you say if they question your kind of 506 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: commitment to political principle because of. 507 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 4: That income inequality and. 508 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 3: What Canadians might call a just society, a society where 509 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 3: we take care of each other, has been a kind 510 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 3: of central principle of my life and my thinking since 511 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 3: I became a sentient human truly, Like I come from 512 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 3: a small town in northern Alberta. It's really really cold. 513 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 3: You're cold in Toronto today. It gets down to forty 514 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 3: below regularly in the winter. And people in the Peace Country, 515 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,479 Speaker 3: they are frontier men. My family were pioneers, very proud 516 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 3: of that, very tough, very entrepreneurial. But like the patron 517 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 3: Saint of the Peace Country, his motto was what people 518 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 3: said about him was he was every man's friend and 519 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 3: he never locked. 520 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 4: His cabin door. 521 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 3: And that is a very powerful thing that I've known 522 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 3: since I remember knowing words, and I do think we 523 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 3: have to take care of each other. I wrote a 524 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 3: book about income inequality and sort of the rise of 525 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 3: this global plutocracy and the hollowing out of the middle 526 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 3: class before I entered politics. I'm really proud of the 527 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: things we did. I did in government to push against it. 528 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 3: The Canada Child Benefit a huge measure that has lifted 529 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 3: Canadian families, Canadian children out of poverty. I spoke yesterday 530 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 3: with an Afghan Canadian woman who's going to be running 531 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 3: for the Liberal Party in the next election, and she 532 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 3: told me how she came to Canada. She was married, 533 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 3: very very young, she had three children. It was a 534 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 3: difficult relationship. She left the relationship and she said, I 535 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 3: slept with my kids in our Honda Civic for nearly 536 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 3: a year and then the candidate and think about that, 537 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 3: and she said, one kid on each seat, one kid 538 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 3: on the back seat. 539 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 4: And she said she slept where the feed are. 540 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 3: And she's not self pitying. She's now running as a 541 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 3: Liberal candidate. Okay, she has a good job. She's running 542 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 3: And she said, what made it possible for me and 543 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 3: my kids to get out of the Honda Civic and 544 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 3: for me now to be a candidate for the Liberal 545 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 3: Party is the candidate child benefit. And she was just 546 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 3: counting the days until she got that. So we have 547 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 3: put some really really good programs in place. I'm also 548 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 3: very proud of the national system of daycare ten dollars 549 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 3: a day daycare. Great for family, Emily's great for allowing 550 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 3: women to have a kid and have a job. Also 551 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 3: a great driver of economic growth. So I believe in 552 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 3: all of that. I also know that today for Canada, 553 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 3: the most significant economic fact and reality is that Donald 554 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 3: Trump is president with a plan to change the world. 555 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 4: And we don't need to be afraid of that. 556 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 3: We need to have a plan to deal with it, 557 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 3: and we need to recognize the magnitude of the challenge. 558 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 3: You know, John Maynard Kaines had this great line, when 559 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 3: the facts change, I change my mind, sir, what. 560 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 4: Do you do? 561 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 3: And the difference between a United States with Joe Biden 562 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 3: or Kamala Harris as president, both of them intended to 563 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 3: raise the capital gains rate, versus a Donald Trump as 564 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 3: president is huge for Canada. You know, we started off 565 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 3: in the conversation talking about one of my. 566 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 4: Sort of core. 567 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 3: Understandings about Donald Trump, and that is that one of 568 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 3: his objectives is take all the world's money. You heard 569 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 3: that in the Davos speech, right, He was like, guys, 570 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 3: invest your money and can't in the United States. 571 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 4: It'll be great. 572 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,720 Speaker 3: Invest your money outside of the United States, it will be terrible. 573 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 3: So he wants to suck in all the world's investment. 574 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 3: He wants to suck an investment by Canadian businesses. 575 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 4: And for Canadians, it's the easiest thing in. 576 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 3: The world to invest in the United States. So we 577 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 3: right now have to fight. We have to fight for 578 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 3: Canadian jobs, we have to fight for Canadian businesses, we 579 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 3: have to fight for Canadian investment. And that does mean 580 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 3: we have to change our policies. 581 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 4: And I do that. 582 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 3: Without any apology whatsoever. I do that because we have 583 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 3: to put the national interest first. 584 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 2: Wrapping up here, let me ask you about the party 585 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 2: today and what it's going through, what this campaign represents. 586 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 2: And I guess I'm bringing my bias to the table here, 587 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 2: but thinking about what's happening within the Democratic Party in 588 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 2: the United States after this election, is it a fair 589 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: parallel as they think about who their base of support 590 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 2: is who they represent, how big a tent they have. 591 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 2: Are you and your party going through something similar similar undulations? 592 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,479 Speaker 3: That is such an interesting question. You're the first person 593 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 3: who's asked me that question, and I'm glad you have 594 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 3: because I think about it a lot, and I do 595 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 3: think for us as a party, having this leadership race 596 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 3: is incredibly healthy. We are seeing a surge of new 597 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 3: memberships in the Liberal Party, we are seeing a surge 598 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 3: of interest. We're having conversations that we haven't had before. 599 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,479 Speaker 3: One of the things that I really believe we need 600 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,800 Speaker 3: to do, and I'll leave it to you to judge 601 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 3: and your listeners whether Americans need to do it to 602 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 3: is where I think the Right has been effective in 603 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 3: recent months and years is in finding ways to connect 604 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 3: with its own grassroots supporters, in finding ways to make 605 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 3: regular people feel that they were being listened to and 606 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 3: that they were driving what the policies would be. I 607 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 3: would say that our party had become less effective at that. 608 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 3: I think inside our party we had allowed the grassroots 609 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 3: to atrophy. As a government, we functioned in a very 610 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 3: kind of you know, star system. 611 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 4: One man banned. 612 00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 3: Decisions taken right at that apex and flowing down, and 613 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 3: that's not good for democracy. And you know, if I've 614 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 3: been spending a lot of my time meeting with grassroots 615 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 3: Liberal supporters and with Canadians who you might describe as 616 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 3: liberal curious, and you know what I think, you know, 617 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 3: the hardcore liberal supporters. What I've heard them say is 618 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 3: if the only time you talk to us is when 619 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 3: you want us to write a check or knock on 620 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 3: a door or put up a lawn sign, don't. 621 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 4: Be surprised if we're disengaged. 622 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 3: So I see this moment, certainly for us here in 623 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 3: the political center in Canada, in the Liberal Party, as 624 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 3: an opportunity to, you know, with a huge amount of 625 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 3: energy and conviction, reinvent how we are working as a party, 626 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 3: to really listen to Canadians, to listen to Liberals, to 627 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 3: say to them. 628 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 4: You're the boss. 629 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 3: You're the boss of the party, and to Canadians, you're 630 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 3: the boss of the government. And these are kind of 631 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 3: words that are easy to say. I think it's important 632 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 3: to put in structures that make that the case. And 633 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 3: so last week I put forward some very specific proposals. 634 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 4: On reform of our party. 635 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 3: One of them, maybe the most important one, is you know, 636 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,400 Speaker 3: I don't know about you, David, but a way to 637 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 3: understand who your boss is is. 638 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 4: To know who has the ability to fire you. 639 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,839 Speaker 3: And so what I have promised is, if I am 640 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 3: chosen as leader, one of the very first things I 641 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 3: will do is say to the party membership, I want 642 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 3: you to come up with a mechanism for a leadership review. 643 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 3: I want you to have the right and the tools 644 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,399 Speaker 3: to fire me. And I can assure you when we 645 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 3: give Liberal Party members that authority and that power, you 646 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,959 Speaker 3: will have a Liberal leader who is much much more 647 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,879 Speaker 3: responsive to the grassroots of the party, and you will 648 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 3: have a stronger and better party and you know what, 649 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 3: you will make Canadian democracy better. 650 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 2: Quick follow up to that, could term limits have solved 651 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 2: this problem? Clearly that was something that was preventing the 652 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 2: party from thinking about who would come next. 653 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 3: And when we are a strong and vibrant parliamentary democracy. 654 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 3: And I don't think grafting features from a US presidential 655 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,240 Speaker 3: system onto our own is really good idea. 656 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 4: But no, no, but no, but no. 657 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 3: But where I think you're driving at I agree with, 658 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 3: which is the leader cannot be the person who decides 659 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 3: whether she or. 660 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 4: He continues in that role. 661 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 3: We need to be sure the grassroots have much more 662 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 3: authority than they have today. I think we need to 663 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 3: be sure that caucus members have much more authority than 664 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 3: they have today, which is how parliamentary democracies in the 665 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 3: Westminster system work in other countries. And I do absolutely 666 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 3: believe that it was wrong for the leader alone to 667 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 3: be the person who decided whether he continued in government. 668 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 2: Just kind of in the time horizon of this campaign. 669 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 2: I'm very curious how you'll go about differentiating yourself from 670 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,440 Speaker 2: your closest rival here. So I look at your biographies. 671 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 2: Grew up in Alberta, went to Harvard, graduate school at Oxford, 672 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 2: government service time on the international stage. What are going 673 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 2: to be the different differentiators between you and Mark Corney 674 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 2: going forward here? 675 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,839 Speaker 3: Well, talking about if we're going to start with the biography, 676 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 3: I think there are some crucial differences. One is I've 677 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:08,760 Speaker 3: been a politician and politics is something that. 678 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:14,240 Speaker 4: I think you need to you know, where experience helps. 679 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 3: Margaret Atwood has this great line where at a dinner 680 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 3: party she was talking to a neurosurgeon and the neurosurgeon said, 681 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 3: I'm planning to retire soon, and then I want to 682 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 3: write a novel. 683 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 4: Do you have any tips? 684 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,720 Speaker 3: And she said, Oh, that's so interesting, because I'm planning 685 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 3: to retire from being a novelist and I'm going to 686 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 3: be a neurosurg any tips for me. 687 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 4: So, like politics, it's a thing, and. 688 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,840 Speaker 3: For sure you get scars doing it, but you also 689 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 3: learn stuff, and that particularly applies to dealing with other 690 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,879 Speaker 3: countries and dealing with tough negotiations. It is one thing 691 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 3: to be a technocrat. It is one thing to be 692 00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 3: a bureaucrat responsible only to your own bureaucracy and ultimately 693 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,799 Speaker 3: to your political masters. It is another thing to be 694 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 3: an elected politician, responsible to your country and your citizens, 695 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 3: and to go mano amano with the tough guys of 696 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 3: the world. 697 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 4: That's something I've done. Canadians have seen me do it, and. 698 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 3: Crucially, the tough guys of the world have seen me 699 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 3: do it. So I would say that is an absolutely 700 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 3: critical difference. 701 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 2: Last question, how determined are these next few weeks going 702 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 2: to be for Canada? Yes, in the context of this campaign, 703 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 2: but as we're facing this, this very first deadline. In 704 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 2: your letter you talked about the gravity of the moment. 705 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 2: How do you see it in the context of history huge, you. 706 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 3: Know, I think we are at a hinge moment for 707 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 3: Canada and also for the world. I think this is 708 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 3: a time when you know that period we had that 709 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 3: remember the end of history? Do you remember that the 710 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 3: end of history is now ended? And I would say 711 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 3: even that rules based international order that we built so 712 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 3: painstakingly after the Second World War, I think that is 713 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,720 Speaker 3: being shaken up. The kind of peak globalization we had 714 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 3: with China's entry to the WTO, that. 715 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 4: Is being shaken up. So you know, the tectonic. 716 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 3: Plates of the global political system and the global economy 717 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 3: are shifting right now, and that matters for Canada. And 718 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 3: at heart, the reason that I am running to be 719 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 3: leader of the Liberal Party and the Prime Minister of 720 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 3: Canada is I have a plan for how Canada cannot 721 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 3: just survive this shifting. 722 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,759 Speaker 4: Of the plates, but absolutely. 723 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,759 Speaker 3: Thrive as these plates shift. Thrive because the things we 724 00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 3: do at home, but also thrive because I have a 725 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 3: real vision of how this reordering can happen in ways 726 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,360 Speaker 3: that are good for Canada and good for the United States. 727 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 3: And I know that that is something we can work 728 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 3: on together. 729 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,720 Speaker 1: That was Bloomberg's David Gourup and former Canadian finance minister 730 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: and Liberal Party leader candidate Christopher Freeland. And this is Bloomberg.