1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossoel from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: My guest is Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law professor emeritus, will 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: be presenting the constitutional argument in President Trump's defense. Thanks 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: for joining us, Professor, my pleasure. Thank you so so far, 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: do you see any cracks in the House's case against 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: the president. I don't see any case against the president 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: for there to be cracks. The most important thing is 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: whether it charges impeachable offenses and obstruction of Congress and 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: abuse of power simply or not constitutionally permissible offenses to 10 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: allow impeachment. Virtually every president is Washington has been accused 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: of abusing his power, and presidents obstruct Congress all the 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: time when they invoke executive privilege. So these are not 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: valid allegations for impeachment. So anything else that's going on, 14 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: it's just a kind of political show. Professor, the old 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: Awhelming majority of constitutional law scholars, including your own colleagues, 16 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: Harvard law professors Lawrence Tribe and Noah Felman, say your 17 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: position is just plain wrong and that you don't need 18 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: a crime. Well, they think it was right if Hillary Clinton, 19 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: who were being impeached. In fact, Larry tribe. When Bill 20 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: Clinton was president, said categorically that a sitting president cannot 21 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: be um indicted or charge with a crime. And then magically, 22 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 1: when Donald Trump got elected, he changed his mind and 23 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: said that he could be indicted for a crime. Virtually 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: all of the professors who signed that letter would have 25 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: signed the opposite letter had the shoemen on the other foot. 26 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: These are mostly partisan people who will always come down 27 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: on the side of candidates they support, and they'll make 28 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: the constitution fit into the candidates that they support, and 29 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: they just don't pass what I call the shoe on 30 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: the other foot test. Some people are saying that about you. 31 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: In fact, the House Judiciary Chair Jerry Nadler played a 32 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: clip of you from which you said, quote, if you 33 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: have somebody who completely corrupts the office of the president 34 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: and who abuses trust and who poses great danger to 35 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: our liberty, you don't need a technical crime. Yeah, well 36 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: that's true, you don't need a technical crime. But I've 37 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: changed my mind on whether or not abusive conduct can 38 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: be a criteria for impeachment. What happens during the Clinton days, 39 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: I was on Clinton side. Uh, there was no issue 40 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: about whether you needed a crime, because they charged him 41 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: with perjury. They charged him with a crime. The only 42 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: issue is whether it was high crime. So I hadn't 43 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: done the research on that issue because it wasn't pressing. 44 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: It wasn't an issue that was being debated. But since 45 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: this election, when they've been pushing for the impeachment of Trump, 46 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: who I voted against, I get all the research. I've read, 47 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: all the congressional debates, I've read the federalist papers, I've 48 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 1: read Blackstone, and I've come to a very different conclusion 49 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: in that obstruction of justice, obstruction of Congress, and abusive 50 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: power precisely the kind of vague, open ended standard list 51 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: criteria on non criteria that the Framers would have rejected. 52 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: So I've changed my mind the way Larry Tribe changes 53 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: my Looie Natala changes my Nadler famously said, Jean the 54 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: Clinton impeachment, you should never impeach anybody unless there's a 55 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: widespread bipartisan support. Now he's impeaching Trump on a totally 56 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 1: partisan basis. Scholars academics changed their views based on research. 57 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: I did not make a partisan change. I made an 58 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: academic change. Larry Tribe and Nadler made partisan changes. So 59 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: I don't think they had the right to call me 60 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: out on that without acknowledging. Also, Larry Tribe called to 61 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: the impeachment of Ronald Reagan on abuse of power. I mean, 62 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: my god, if Ronald Reagan can be uh impeached on 63 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: abusive power, is there any president who couldn't be impeached? 64 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: To see House of Representatives had a majority of the 65 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: other party than the president. I think it's a very 66 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: dangerous precedent is set to allow a president to be 67 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: impeached on abusive power. I'm going to present a list 68 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: of presidents who have been accused of abusing their power 69 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: when I speak. But Professor Tribe, who I have to 70 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 1: say I had in constitutional law at Harvard, has said 71 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: that abusive power does merit impeachment. He's just dead wrong. 72 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,799 Speaker 1: He's just dead wrong. Abusive power does not merry impeachment. 73 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: And I will demonstrate that. And I'd like Tribe to 74 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: answer me on the merits rather than calling me names, 75 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: which he's proceeded to do. Now that's all he's done 76 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: is her old depithets bonkers. I mean, basically, what he's 77 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: doing is calling uh former Justice um Benjamin Curtis, the 78 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: man who bravely dissented on dread Scott and then resigned 79 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: from the Supreme Court in protest. He's calling him bonkers 80 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: because he made the argument, an argument that had positive 81 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: impact on the trial of Andrew Johnson and made the 82 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: same argument essentially that I'm making. So let Tribe call 83 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: Curtis bonkers instead of throwing the epithet and me, we 84 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: will ask Professor Tribe to respond to you. So let 85 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: me ask you this. We'll ask him. Make sure you 86 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: ask him why he changed his mind on um whether 87 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: a president can be charged, and I'm sure he'll tell 88 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: you we did the research and came to a different conclusion. 89 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: But then he'll condemn me for doing the same thing 90 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: in a non partisan way. You have to admit, though, 91 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: that almost every constitutional scholar of today, even the constitutional 92 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: scholar Jonathan Turley, that the Republicans called and the House 93 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: said that what Turley said was abuse of power can 94 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: be a constitution. He had to say it because he 95 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: had said at McClinton case, so he was locked in. 96 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: So he said that. But he did say that this 97 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: did not constitute abuse of power. Uh, you want to 98 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: know what constitutes an abuse of power? What Richard Nixon 99 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: did and Richard Nixon was not impeached. Ultimately he resigned, 100 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: but he committed crimes. He committed actual crime and obstructed justice. 101 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: Those are impeachable offenses. But my point is that the 102 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: vast majority of UM constitutional scholars UH not only voted 103 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: for Hillary Clinton. I did too, and supported her in 104 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: campaigned for her, and sent money to her. But they 105 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: are influenced by partisan politics in their constitutional analysis. I 106 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: firmly believe that if Hillary Clinton had been elected and 107 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: were impeached on abuse of power because of I don't 108 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: know what Benghazi or any of the things she did 109 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: or something she did when she was in office, that 110 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: of the five people who signed that letter, I bet 111 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: you four of them would not have signed the letter. 112 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: We won't get to test out that theory, but let 113 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: me ask you you might at some point in the future. 114 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: You might if a Democrat gets elected and the Republicans 115 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: impeach them as they surely will. UM, and the Republicans 116 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: impeach them as they surely will if abuse of power 117 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: is permitted, then we'll see how many of the professor 118 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: signed the left that to good that would be a 119 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: good test. Let me ask you this, you didn't sign 120 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: I understand the six page legal memo filed by the 121 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: President's team this weekend, and you've distinguished yourself in other 122 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: ways from the defense team. Why did you agree to 123 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: defend President Trump? Because the constitutional issues is so compelling 124 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: and because the terrible precedent that would be established if 125 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,559 Speaker 1: a president could be impeached on the grounds of abusive power, 126 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: particularly abusive power, but also obstruction of Congress. I would 127 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: not be in this case if not for the constitutional issues. 128 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: That's why I'm playing a limited role. Much as I 129 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: did in the O. J. Simpson case. I was not 130 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: a regular part of the legal team. I didn't go 131 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: to court. I just argued the constitutional and legal issues, 132 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: the same to do in many other cases. I come 133 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: into special counsel on the Constitution. I've taught constitutional criminal 134 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: procedure for almost half a century. I've written half a 135 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: dozen books on the subject. I've litigated a hundred cases 136 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: on the Constitution. So I'm an expert on the Constitution, 137 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: particularly as it relates to matter is like impeachment. So 138 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: I'm coming in to make that argument. But I'm not 139 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: involved in the day to day strategic or tactical decisions, 140 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: or the decisions which witnesses to call a witnesses a call. 141 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: That's a role I've played in the number of cases, 142 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: and that's the role I chose to play in this case. 143 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: Only about a minute here, professor. But are you getting 144 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: a lot of negative feedback or blowback? Because only negative feedback? 145 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: Name calling threats to my family the most abusive. You know, 146 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: I'm too old. Um, I'm to this, I'm to that. Uh, 147 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,599 Speaker 1: everything has been an ad hominem. I'm beginning none of 148 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: these things. If I had decided to make the argument 149 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: in favor of impeachment, obviously I couldn't make that argument 150 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: because I don't believe in it. But if I had 151 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: made that argument, all the same people who are attacking me, 152 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: condemning me, attacking my credentials, would be praising me. I 153 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: wish Hillary Clinton had gotten elected. If she had gotten elected, ay, 154 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: I prefer that because I voted for her, But being 155 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: my life would be so much easier because I would 156 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: be defending her against impeachment. And they would have built 157 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: a statue you to me on Martha's vineyard instead of 158 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: refusing to even interact with me. So it's all a 159 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: matter of partisan hypocrisy, and I stand by the same 160 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: principles I stood by since I defended the rights of 161 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon not to be named as an unindicted professor. 162 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: We have. Thanks so much. That's Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law 163 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: Professor emeritus, who will be presenting the constitutional defense of 164 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:29,119 Speaker 1: President Trump. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. 165 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 166 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brasso. 167 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg. Yeah.