1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: I think we can both agree to One of them 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: more troubling things to shamble out of the nineteen was 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: the possible human zee. Oh yeah, very very sad case 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: of a chimpanzee, sweet animal, very sweet, cigar smoking upright, walking, bald, 8 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: bald ish chimp that people thought was very is like, 9 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: eerily humanlike and and some people even thought that he 10 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: might have been the missing link between humans and great apes. 11 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: And Jim, yes, we hear about the missing link all 12 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: the time. And in the nineteen seventies genetic testing that 13 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: people were just so unnerved by this this little creature Oliver, 14 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: that I thought for sure that there wasn't part of 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,639 Speaker 1: him that was human. And they saw it in his face, right, 16 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: they saw it in the way that he appeared to 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: walk around on two feet right right. And and supposedly 18 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: the smell as well, there's some accounts that say that 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: he didn't smell like a chimpanzee, ship that he smelled 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: like a little bit like a man and a little 21 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: bit like a chimp. Yeah, well, here's okay, here's the context. 22 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: Nineteen seventies, some a couple raises chimpanzees, uses them for 23 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: entertainment purposes, meaning you know, in commercials or parties or whatever. 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: They get this one peculiar chimpanzee, Oliver. Turns out that 25 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: nobody really wants to use them in commercials because he 26 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: is really unsettling, because he looks very human, and because 27 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: he keeps walking upright, like consistently. You see chimpsy this sometimes, 28 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: but this particular chimpanzee was you know, even though his 29 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: hips were splayed out, he would still walk up right. 30 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: People like, that's kind of weird. Um, And so they 31 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: began just to annotally say things like, oh, well, you know, 32 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: the other chimps don't like Oliver because he must have 33 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: a bad smell or they don't recognize a smell. So 34 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: we don't know for sure exactly what the deal was 35 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: with Oliver, but but they felt weird about using him. 36 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: They didn't think he looked like like star chimp material, 37 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: and and maybe just maybe they they found that he 38 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: looked at he was a little too human. That's the 39 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: problem that that it felt really weird to take this 40 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: this sort of human looking animal, uh and uh put 41 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: it in a cage, take it out of the cage, 42 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: make it run around for a commercial, and then reward 43 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: it with a carrot and a cigar. Well, especially especially 44 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: if it sits down next to you and start smoking 45 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: a cigar and maybe even making a pass at you, 46 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: because apparently this is something that he would do when 47 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: he turned sixteen and his hormones were raging. I guess um, 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: but he in fact was not a humanzy as much 49 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: as people wanted to believe or thought that he was. 50 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: Later on they did gitetic testing on him, they found 51 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: that he was, you know, chimp. That doesn't mean that 52 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: people uh still aren't fascinated by the idea that you 53 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: could create half man, half ape. Right, It's it's I mean, 54 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: it's a it is a troubling idea, as we uh, 55 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: it's the title of this podcast suggest you know. It's uh, 56 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: it's it's the the idea that there is this bridge 57 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: between us and the animal. It but blurs the line 58 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: between what it is to be human and what it 59 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: is to be this this other. And of course this 60 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: is something that we've explored in horror and science fiction 61 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: many times in the past, especially of the the end 62 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: of the eight hundreds beginning of the twentieth century, you 63 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: saw a number of very important stories that came around 64 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: that they really signified this. I mean one as early 65 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: as one you had the Murders in the Room Morgue 66 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: by Edgar Allan Poe, which you know spoilers. It involves 67 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: an orangutant with a straight raders there stuffing girls into chimneys, 68 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: and the idea that this this ape is going around 69 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: committing crimes against humans. So it's it's pretty troubling. But 70 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: but then it really kicks in a little later. Um 71 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: of course you have uh the Island of Dr Moreau, 72 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: um classic novel. Which movie are you referring to? Oh, yes, 73 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: the ninety six version, which you still have to admit 74 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: is pretty fun because you have you have Marlon Brando 75 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: and that whole get up apparently acting with a headset, 76 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: like barely acting like reading lines that are right. And 77 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: then he has the little The whole idea of the 78 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: mini me originates with the with the little person that 79 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: he had addressed up like him. Um Ron Perlman running 80 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:39,239 Speaker 1: around as in an animal costume. You had Val Kilmer 81 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: doing god knows what, and uh it was kind of 82 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: a disaster. But there was also a nineteen seventies seven 83 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: film version that had Bert Lancaster and Michael York and 84 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: that one was always a favorite of mine because it 85 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: was like when I was a kid, I would watch 86 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: like like Grandpa Monster would host this like Saturday Morning Afternoon. 87 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: You know, he was a daytime horror TV host, and 88 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: he would host these awful movies that I was watching. 89 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: This was before Mystery Science Theater three thousand Stugs, But 90 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: but I would, I would. I would always check it 91 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: out and and they would, you know, show stuff like 92 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: them with the giant ants and and I particularly remember 93 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: being really into that seventy seven version of Dr Moreau. 94 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: All Right, I need to check that out. So yeah, 95 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: I mean, in case you guys haven't guessed out there, 96 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about humanities, and we're gonna talk a little 97 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: bit more later about what we have already done in 98 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: the lab in terms of creating hybrid creatures of ourselves 99 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: and other animals. But first we should probably talk about cameras, right, Yes, 100 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: the camera. For you Greek mythology junkies, this was of 101 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: course a a monster with the lion's head, a goat's 102 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: body at dragon's tail. It breathes fire. It was born 103 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,679 Speaker 1: in Lycia, on the southern coast of what's now modern Turkey. 104 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: And it would sweep down in the evenings and it 105 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: would carry off women, children, and livestock. It would literally 106 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: their bones all over the mountains. And uh, so you 107 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: know what, what are you gonna do? You gotta get 108 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: a hero to take care of this, this monster that's 109 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: made from different animal parts. So you bring in Bill 110 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: Eraphan And uh, of course he can't really just walk 111 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: up there and take care of his A. He needs spear, 112 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: and B he needs a pegasus. So I find it 113 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: amusing that um that he defeats the chimera mainly by 114 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: using a chimera, because the today that the word chimera 115 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: is often used to refer to any animal that has 116 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: two or more different sets of genetically distinct cells working together. Okay, 117 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: and so again this will bring me about two movies 118 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: and Clash of the Titans, right, yes, everyone, everyone's modern 119 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: understanding of mythology of course based and clash of the 120 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: type of course, right. But of course we actually do 121 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: have hybrids in nature, not necessarily like medusa like creatures 122 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: or otherwise they're generally not quite that facts. Yeah, yeah, minotaurs, 123 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: sirens on the banks calling you forth. But we've got 124 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: dogs and wolves not that exciting, but they have made 125 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: it right, lions and tigers, ligers a mule, which is 126 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: the progeny of a male donkey and a female horse. Yeah, 127 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: you get the all the value of a donkey, but 128 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: the size of a horse. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously 129 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: we've seen inner species love happenings in their products of 130 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: their love happenings. But I don't know why I'm choosing 131 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: to say it that way, that this is what happens right. Well, yeah, 132 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: they're related, um enough that they can actually breed with 133 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: one and they and produce the offspring that most of 134 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: these cases, though, cannot then breed with with other animals. 135 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: The mule for instances is generally sterile. Yes. And then 136 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: we have cross species in the lab. Right man made 137 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: three different types here that you'll see. One is called 138 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: the hybrid, and this is created by breeding across species, 139 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: and hybrids are generally the result of combining an egg 140 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: from one species with firm from another to form a 141 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: single embryo and hybrids contain recombined genetic material throughout their 142 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: genome and throughout all the tissues in their body, because 143 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: that's important to note. And then there's transgenics that's the 144 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: result of gene transfer, and typically transgenics contains transferred or 145 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: manipulated genes in addition to the host nuclear and mitochondrial DNA. 146 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: One exception may be a transgenic embryo comprised of the 147 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: entire complement of nuclear DNA from one organizing organism fused 148 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: with an inunculated egg cell from another, and this will 149 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: become all sort of crystal clear, and we talk more 150 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: specifically about what's being created here. And then third cameras 151 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: right right and their number of cool lab grown examples 152 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: of this. Chinese researchers at the Shanghai Second Medical University 153 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: successfully fuse human cells with rabbit eggs. A year later, 154 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: there was a successful Chinese camera experiment where reachers that 155 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: researchers at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota announced that they 156 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: created a pig with human blood pumping through its veins. 157 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: We made a sheep with human livers, a mouse with 158 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: the human liver, a stapler with the human liver cat 159 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: not really at the state cat human hybrid proteins, mouse 160 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: with a human brain, well with human with one percent 161 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: of its brain was the human brain cells. So but 162 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: anyone gets any crazy secret in them ideas there, But yeah, 163 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: it's it's a technology that's it's been around the block 164 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: a few times already, and these are all issue point 165 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: that people are not just making like sheep with human 166 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: livers just I think it's awesome, or they want to 167 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: sheep that can really hold its liquor. This is about 168 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: figuring out ways to potentially grow new organs for organ 169 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 1: transplants for humans. To better understand some of these systems, 170 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: I mean they're they're definitely medical, uh goals in mind 171 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: here are trying to understand life threatening diseases UM. In 172 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, British researchers created a human pig hybrid. 173 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: So this is where the egg comes from a pig 174 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: and then nucleus comes from a human and the idea 175 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: is to implant the nucleus of an egg from a 176 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: human being with a disease UM so he's something like 177 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: heart disease, and then you can watch how the DNA 178 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: from a person with this condition instructs cellular development in 179 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: its earliest stages, and so scientists really hope to find 180 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: out more about the inner workings about what's going on there, um, 181 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: specifically with heart disease. So yeah, there's all these different 182 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 1: examples of how we have tinkered with nature in order 183 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: to observe our maladies or even just how we have 184 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: progressed as human beings. So all this leads inevitably to 185 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: the tale of a Russian biologist by the name of 186 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: Iliya Ivanov who was doing that most of his work 187 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties, and uh, really wasn't all that 188 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: heart about by the modern public until around and that's 189 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: when a number of Soviet documents became unclassified. The British 190 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: tabloid The Sun got ahold of some of this, and 191 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: they started running stories about the Red Frankenstein, who was 192 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: supposedly it traveled to French Guyana on a Bolsheviks sponsored 193 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: quest to bread a human ape hybrid to create some 194 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: sort of super mutant to aid Stalin and his conquest 195 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: of the world. Yeah, right, this was the Red Apeman 196 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: Army that they talked about, um, which you know, it's 197 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: probably good to note that Ivanov was working way before 198 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: the Russian Revolution began. And there are certain aspects of 199 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: this story that you can see they might have been 200 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: taken out of context. And uh, and it's a great 201 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: fun idea to run with this half man, half ape 202 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: army that Stalin wanted to defeat the world with. But 203 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: that is not in fact what happened, right, That's not 204 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: exactly what ivan Off was after the At the down 205 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century, ivan Off was already a pretty 206 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: famous dude in his field for his pioneering work and 207 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: artificial intamination. Respected, yeah, well respected. He had done things 208 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: like he created a z donc which was a zebra 209 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: donkey hybrid, a zubron which is a European bison cow crossover. Uh, 210 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: you know, he was he was creating mashups with animals 211 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: like and kind of you know, islanded Dr morou wish, 212 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: I guess if you want to really take it and 213 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: run with it. But but he was well thought of. 214 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: And his next big thing was he wanted to see 215 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: about improving the bloodstock of Imperial Russia, so um around. 216 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: He puts in proposals with the government despite the disapproval 217 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: of the scientific establishment. He got to go ahead, and 218 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: the funds most important to mount a expedition to Africa 219 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: to collect apes so that he could see about creating 220 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: a hybrid between a human and its closest relative. That's right. 221 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: And he was getting his funds from the Soviet Academy 222 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,599 Speaker 1: of Sciences and part and uh, and there was a 223 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: little crossover at the time, so he's working with a 224 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: lot of people who are really respected in their fields. 225 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: Of course, you know, the problem was that, uh, it 226 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: was a little bit diabolical, right, I mean, his his 227 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: idea here, yeah, his his best we can tell his 228 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: his real idea. His his notion here was not to 229 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,839 Speaker 1: create a super soldier and thing stupid like that. But 230 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: he was a big believer in the theories of Darwin 231 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: that the idea that man evolved from these previous forms, 232 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: that that evolution was the driving force, natural selection was drive, 233 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: which is right. Yeah, But he he thought that the 234 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: way to really prove it, to just really just settle 235 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: the case once and for all, and the whole evolution 236 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: versus everything else, versus religion, you name it, was to 237 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: actually create a human chimp hybrid and then introduce you 238 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: to the world. And then people would say that he 239 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: would be like, what what's that? You got something else? 240 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: There's something about religion, eat my humansy his name is 241 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: Oliver and uh proof, Yeah, your entire argument is nil 242 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: at this point. So so he had you could say 243 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: he had a noble um, you know, scientific goal in mind. 244 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: It's kind of a I mean still kind of a 245 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: helish moves. He's kind of wants to stick it tip 246 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: to everyone, but it's still he has a definite goal 247 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: in mind. Here his his means of pulling an offer 248 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: just a little suspect. Well, yeah, it's in the execution, right, 249 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: So he decides that, um, he is going to try 250 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: to inseminate three females, right, which he does. Um, he tries, 251 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: I should say, and these are African women and uh 252 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: but then you know, eventually he's forced to abandon the 253 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: project because it's just not going that well. It doesn't 254 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: have a tent of support behind it, right, and he 255 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: has really had to try to get those ten dollarge 256 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: in the Soviet Financial Commission. He's really had to work 257 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 1: very hard at it. This it's not something that a 258 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: lot of people want to write. And it was kind 259 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: of touch and go, Like he went to Paris first 260 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: and then he went to French Guyana because they had 261 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 1: some chimps over there, but then they weren't yet old 262 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: enough to breed, so to come back to Paris. Nothing 263 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: was working in his favorite right and he gets really desperate, 264 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: and so what does he do? Something completely unconsciousable. He 265 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: decides that he's going to inseminate African women with the 266 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: chimpanzee sperm without their knowledge. Okay, so he's trying to 267 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: get forward with this is as much as possible, and 268 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: he's found out, and of course everybody starts to reject 269 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: this plan, and he spirals out of his his professional field. 270 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: I guess you could say, yeah, he starts hanging out 271 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: with the celebrated surgeon Sergey Voronoff, who at the time 272 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: was was really in fashion because he had a quote 273 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: unquote rejuvenation therapy that he would perform in which he 274 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: would graf slices of ape test ees onto those of 275 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: rich and aging men who were hoping to regain some 276 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: of their former vigor. And let's just all positive for 277 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: a moment think about that. Yeah, it's I mean, on 278 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: one hand, anyone who's ever read The Adventures of Sherlock 279 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: Holmes is probably thinking of the Adventure of the Creeping 280 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: Man from nine three, which follows the same logic. The 281 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: idea you have somebody that's taking some sort of ape 282 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: or monkey related product, but in this case it's changing 283 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: him and making him crazy uh or possibly changing them 284 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: into a monster is one of the more sci fi 285 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: of the Carli Homes tales. It's important to keep in 286 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: mind that that Vornoff is not the only one doing 287 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: this uh in the twenties, this rejuvenation tests on your 288 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: cheek therapy. Yes, yes, he became notorious for performing in Algeria. 289 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: But at the same time several US surgeants were were 290 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: doing the same thing. There was Dr Victor D. Less 291 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: Pennises uh professor of genature urinary surgery at Northwestern University. 292 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: He was treating impotence with the use of glandular extracts 293 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: and then grafting slices of human cadaver tests uh in 294 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: into the rectus muscles for them that it meant which 295 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: but but again this was he was just human cadavertive 296 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: to humans, so there wasn't anything fishy going on. Um, 297 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: you know, and certainly what we do a lot of 298 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: today with a lot of transplant of an organ as 299 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: a cadab or twite. So so I don't want to 300 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: scandalize that too much. But then you had this guy Dr. 301 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: Leo Stanley, who between and this is another American, between 302 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen and nineteen twenty two, he injected six hundred 303 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: and fifty six prisoners at San Quentin Prison with tests 304 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: in an attempt to slow a reverse aging. But he 305 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: used the testicles of goats, rams, boars, deer. He essentially 306 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: purade them like I assume in like a big smoothie 307 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: blender um purade the testicles so that they he could 308 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: put them in a needle and inject them under the 309 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: skin of the abdomen subcutaneous tests is what I'm hearing, 310 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: testy like slurpy, and and of course, um, you know, 311 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: there's not much you can really say about that, but 312 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: he reported that that that he had some success with it. 313 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: But I mean, ultimately, you have a situation where a 314 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: dude is performing horrible human experimentation. Uh, and you know, 315 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: within the walls of a prison. But back to ivanof all, right, 316 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: but I do think it's interesting to note that that 317 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: was the environment that Ivanov was working in. Say, yeah, 318 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: he's working in environment where, and certainly not everybody thought 319 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: that Ivanov was great. There were there were some scientists 320 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: that came to sort of investigate and poke around what 321 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: he was doing, because even I mean everyone, not everyone 322 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, totally inject some people with ape stuff. 323 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: That's that's a great idea. Now, some some people were concerned, 324 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: but there was enough of it going around that not 325 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: as many eyebrows were raised. These were all hormonal approaches 326 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: to treating impotence made prior to the discovery of testosterone, 327 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 1: before the emergence of modern hormone science. So you cut 328 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 1: him a little slack there. I guess as far as 329 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: the mindset goes, not as much as some of the 330 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: actual acts that were performed, because certainly the stuff that 331 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: happened at San Quentin was indefensible. Yeah, and I mean 332 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: Ivanov sort of did get his uh come up. And 333 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 1: so I guess you could say for his ethical transgressions, 334 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: right with trying to impregnate women with chimpanzee sperm without 335 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: their knowledge. He was spanished to Kazakhstan, right, Yeah, the 336 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: French governor and guyana Um said none of that, get 337 00:17:58,520 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: out of here. Yeah, And then he tried to he 338 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: had plans to carry out more experiments in Russia, but 339 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: it was a pain to try and ship all these 340 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: these animals back all the way from Africa. They're dying 341 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: on the way, They're dying once they get back. It's 342 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: just a huge zoological headache. And yeah, indeed, he eventually 343 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: is sent to Kazakistan and he really he's released the 344 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: next year, but he dies soon after, which I mean, 345 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: on one hand yet sad, but then also but he 346 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: was kind of off the rails at that point. It 347 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: seems like in any case that we've looked at, there 348 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: there comes this moment where you look up your mad 349 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: you're essentially a mad scientist, but you you look up 350 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: and you realize that you would you would think you 351 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: would realize you've become a mad scientist, like whether you're 352 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: ivan off and you look up and you realize, wow, 353 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: I've lost all my funding, and uh, I have notes 354 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: here on how I'm going to um secretly impregnate a 355 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: woman with chimp steamen. Or you're someone like like Lily 356 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: the dolphin guy, and you're living in a flooded apartment 357 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: with dolphins and taking LSD in your isolation chamber. You 358 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: think you might realize, man, my funding was just cut 359 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: and I'm doing all this crazy stuff something that maybe 360 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: I'm not on the up and up anymore. Maybe I've 361 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: become Yeah, well was Isn't there some sort of phrase 362 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: about when you're living in the monkey house, you can't 363 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: smell the pooh. I've never heard that that that that 364 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: sounds basically here he was literally living in the monkey house. 365 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: Uh well maybe not literally, but but he was trying 366 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: to keep a monkey house uh in Russia and carry 367 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: out these experiments. So then that of course leads us 368 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: to the question couldn't actually be done? And we will 369 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: talk about that right after this message. All right, we're 370 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: back one more thing about ivan Off before we move 371 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 1: on there. We mentioned that his whole thing was to 372 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: prove Darmond right to stomp out religion, and that the 373 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: the humanity would be the icon of this h of 374 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: his victory. But there are also some theories that the 375 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: the aging Bolsheviks in in particular were very interested in 376 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: financing his research because they were aging men in an 377 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: age when there were some scientific minds that were that 378 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: that thought that you could slower reverse aging by injecting 379 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: things like like like puade tests into the body. You know, 380 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: that they thought that this was if not if these 381 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: techniques weren't working, they were at least leading to in 382 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: the right direction. So there's there are some theories that 383 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: state that while he while Ivanof was definitely um, you know, 384 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: go go dar dar when we're gonna prove religion wrong, 385 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 1: some of the Bolsheviks might be thinking, oh, let's get 386 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: this guy some money. Maybe he'll hook me up with 387 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: the sweet sweet injections and I can live forever. Okay. 388 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: So so they had their own little hidden agenda maybe 389 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: right again, Ivanof, you know, not under the direction of 390 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: Stalinik to raise this eight man army. So could we 391 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: do it? Could we could be well, this is kind 392 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: of an open question, um, because it's it's this was 393 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: this period we're talking about, like the nineteen twenties, you know, 394 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century. This was the time to get 395 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: funding for this experiment. And and certainly as people managed 396 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: to get or at least one man managed to get 397 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: some funding, and it didn't come to fruition. So the 398 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: environment in the world today is certainly not such or 399 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,719 Speaker 1: certainly in most places thankfully that this kind of thing 400 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: is going to get green lit. Yeah, that's right. Robin Bernstein, 401 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: the assistant professor of anthropology at George Washington University, says 402 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: that in a lab setting with a scientist, it's possible 403 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: to fertilize an egg with genetic material from a chimp. 404 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: But to your point, she says, who's going to fund 405 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: it and who's gonna be going to sanction it? Yeah, 406 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: and you're gonna have to I mean, you know, let's 407 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: let's not kid ourselves. As a scientist, tend to be 408 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: pretty bright people, but they are existing in a and 409 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: they're also existing in a culture of of their particular science. 410 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: So you would have to have someone in a culture 411 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: that advocated or tolerated, uh, this type of experiment. Uh, 412 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: you know, they're there have been. People often point to 413 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: the Second World War and you know, the experiments of 414 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: Joseph Mangela, you know, and the you know, the horrible 415 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: things that went on uh there under the regime because stuff, 416 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: because it was a situation where stuff was tolerated. You 417 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: release a gas and in a room and it will 418 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: eventually fill that volume of air. You know, you have 419 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: to have the space that will tolerate a certain level 420 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: of unethical science or more more, you know, outright evil, 421 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: however you want to raise it. So yeah, for for 422 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: this kind of experiment to to come around again, for 423 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: somebody actually make a go at it, you would you 424 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: would have to have that environment that that that culture 425 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: that tolerated this kind of scientific experimentation among actual scientists. Well, 426 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: and even though you know, the scientific community is largely 427 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: pretty self governing, there are people who are still worried 428 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: about it. Biotech activist Jeremy Rifkin said in a two 429 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: thousand interview with The Guardian, chimps shared percent of human genome, 430 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: and a fully mature chimp has the equivalentental abilities and 431 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: consciousness of a four year old human using human and 432 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: chimpanzee embryo, which researchers say is feasible. This is him 433 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: saying this could produce a creature so human that questions 434 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: regarding its moral and legal status would throw four thousand 435 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: years of ethics into chaos. Would such a creature enjoy 436 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: human rights? Would it have to pass some kind of 437 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: humanness test to win its freedom? Would it be forced 438 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: into doing menial labor or be used to perform dangerous activities? 439 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: It's interesting I was reading some stuff by Richard Dawkins, 440 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: and he was making pretty much the same argument that 441 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: if we were he was letting out some some various 442 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: situations that could come about that would change the way 443 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: we think about things. And he was arguing that if you, 444 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: if you were able to create a successful hybridization of 445 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: a human nish and fancy this this humanzy um, you 446 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: you would basically change everything that like his his argument 447 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: is kind of like ivanovs that if you had this creature. 448 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: So if he's not advocating the creation of it, but 449 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: he's saying if he's saying, could it be done? Maybe, 450 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: and if it were done, it would it would change 451 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: the way we think. I don't we were talking about 452 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: this earlier. I don't know if we actually agree with 453 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: that right right, because we we were actually pointing to 454 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: our podcast about the science of arguing and how sometimes 455 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: even when we have all the facts before has sometimes 456 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: and mostly this is ego driven usually, uh, we tend 457 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: to ignore those facts and still go with whatever it 458 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: is that we're rooting for. We're arguing against UM. So, 459 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: I mean it's possible that UM it wouldn't necessarily change 460 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: our idea of how the world was made, how we 461 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: came into being. If we were to create this creature 462 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: for some people, it would write, I mean, but someone 463 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: who firmly believes in intelligent design, they're very much set 464 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: in this mindset this is the right way, and the 465 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: rest it's just some sort of like liberal agenda. If 466 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: said liberals were to to roll out humansy, it's not 467 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: like they would drop everything and be like, well, what 468 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: have I've been wasting my time with this whole intelligent 469 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: design stuff, because there is the proof of the humansy. 470 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: They would say, no, that's just some weird monkey you found, 471 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: or any number of ideas that would just refute that 472 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: any any possibility that this is what they said it 473 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: was right. And you know, just just in case anybody's 474 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: worried about out this coming to fruition, Stewart Newman, a 475 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: developmental biologists sponsored UM by, of course, the biotech activist 476 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: Jeremy Rifkin, actually sought to preclude the creation of a 477 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 1: humanity by attempting to patent the relevant to technology so 478 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: that they would be able to restrict its use and 479 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: then promote an ethics debate UM, you know, on the 480 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: on the world wide platform UM. Because they felt like, 481 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: we just want to go ahead and bring this issue 482 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: to the forefront because people really aren't thinking about it. Um. 483 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: Even though the patent was rejected, they felt like it 484 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: was successful because now they had people talking about the 485 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: question about it. They the people were discussing the possibilities 486 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: and the ethics of creating said hybrid. Yeah, and so 487 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: I mean and in a sense, the government reacted the 488 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: way it was opposed to write, because it's not really 489 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: supposed to give a patent to anybody, you know, it 490 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily know someone's agenda, right, So they rejected this 491 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: pen on the grounds that although the Patent and Trade 492 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: Office UM has been permitted since the Supreme Court decision 493 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty to issue patents on living organisms. A 494 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: major ground for the rejection was their claim to have 495 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: no guidance from Congress as to how human an organism 496 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: can be before it is not patentable by the Thirteenth 497 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: Amendments prohibition of slavery. So you know, there's there's it's 498 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: still very much a gray area. And as rifkin Head 499 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: brought up, you know, at what point are we human? 500 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: What is humanness? What is you know, what are we 501 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: creating here? So, yeah, I mean, it's it's possible to 502 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: create this creature. But should we Yeah, I mean I'm 503 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: not saying yes we should, I'm just saying yeah, yeah, 504 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: that's all good stuff to think that. It also brings 505 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: to mind another tale from this uh, the same sort 506 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: of legacy I was discussing earlier with the Adventures of 507 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: the Creeping Man and I wanted Dr Moreau. You had 508 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: an HP Lovecraft story titled Facts concerning the late author 509 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: German and his Family, which is one that I I 510 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: always liked, um when when I was, you know, reading 511 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: a love Craft. But it's, uh, it's ultimately a it 512 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: it sort of brings the mind some of Lovecraft's racial paranoia, 513 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: which can at times be a little off putting. Um. 514 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: But what's amazing about the story, it's it's very much 515 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: just set in this post Darwinian world. So the story 516 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: involves a man coming, uh, a man who came back 517 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: from exploring in Africa, and it comes to light that 518 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: while he was there, he fell in love with a 519 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: white ape princess. You know think uh, I think the 520 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: movie Congo, the crazy gray apes that had the big 521 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: pet stone paddles that they bashed people with. Well, he 522 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: found this uh individual finds out that his uh uh 523 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: that a member of his family had had gone to 524 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: Africa have fallen in love, and that he was actually 525 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 1: descended partially from this white ape princess. So I just 526 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: find that a fascinating tale because it really it brings 527 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: to mind a lot of the problems that would come 528 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: to light if if we had a humans, the idea 529 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: that it would really rock our boat and make us 530 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,479 Speaker 1: think long and hard about these differences between what it 531 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: is to be human and uh and what it is 532 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: to be this other and if there is and how 533 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: how firm that distinction really is? Of course in the 534 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: Lovecraft toy, it's just a little more, a little more horrific. Well, 535 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: and to bring up Richard Hawkins right selfish gene He 536 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: talks about how our genes are selfish. If all of 537 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: a sudden you do have genetic material that is created 538 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: with a chimpanzee and you have that offspring, how do 539 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: you feel towards that, right? Because that is part of you? Right? 540 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: You're do you you have a completely different idea of 541 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: of what it is to be human, to be sentient? 542 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: All right? Well, I think that about wraps it up. 543 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: Let's have the robot bring over some mail and we'll 544 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: read a quickly. Alright, this is from a listener by 545 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: the name of Tony, says, Hi, Robert and Julie, Greetings 546 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: from Melbourne, Australia. Enjoy really enjoy your podcast. I was 547 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: listening to your Bug Diet episode today when on my 548 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: way to meet some friends to lunch in our Chinatown district, 549 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,479 Speaker 1: when I happen to pass a restaurant called Ant's Bistro. 550 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: Uh and that's spelled A and T Foster vs. I 551 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: had to take a photo and send it to you, guys. 552 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: I'm yet to sample their signature dish, but it's a 553 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: con except you could catch on. Here's the photo. Keep 554 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: up the great work. So yeah, we asked people for 555 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: examples of bug related cuisine and uh in their own 556 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: experiences and uh we had a few different people right 557 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: in and that was that was one of them. And 558 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: let's see what else we have here. We heard from 559 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: a listener by the name of Timothy. Hi, Robert and 560 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: Julie just wanted to weigh in on on the argument's episode. 561 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 1: Robert had mentioned philosophy and I wanted to stress how 562 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: important it really is and how sad it is that 563 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: philosophy isn't taken more seriously in American society. Ego is 564 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: like a colored lens. We may not even be aware 565 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: we are wearing. The argument is a fantastic opportunity for 566 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: someone else to point them out. Philosophy helps you learn 567 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: to look for those heirs yourself. I believe philosophy is 568 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: a large part of why my girlfriend and I are 569 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: able to turn our occasional argument into meaningful conversation. We're 570 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: both willing to be wrong because we both mind the 571 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: rational solution we agree upon to be much preferable to 572 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: a selfish win. I love the show. Uh, And for 573 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: the record, Julie, the male robot most definitely is not argumentative. 574 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: Oh you say that, but have you ever been stuck 575 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: in the break room with Arnie Now pretty he's in 576 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: there to talk to the robotic coffee machine. Yeah, yeah, 577 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: I can pay have a thing going. Yeah, well, all right, 578 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: if you have something you want to share with us 579 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: about past episode on bugs or arguing, or if you 580 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: have something some interesting stuff to share about this episode 581 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: on humansies, do let us know. There were a number 582 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: of I had other things in the notes, so I 583 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: didn't get around to mentioning. So I'm sure some of 584 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: you guys have some cool ports of fiction to bring 585 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: up and i'd i'd love to highlight them hand or 586 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: the exposed to them for the first time. Uh and 587 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: if you want to find us, you can find us 588 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: uh a on Facebook where we're Stuff Below your Mind. 589 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: You can find us be on Twitter, uh where or 590 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: we are Blow the Mind and uh see where else 591 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: can you find us? You can find us at Blow 592 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: the Mind at Discovery and take note of that new 593 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: email address please Discovery dot com. Be sure to check 594 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: out our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join 595 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: How Stuff Work staff as we explore the most promising 596 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow.