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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steffan

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Speaker 1: Never told you a production of iHeartRadio. And welcome to

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Speaker 1: another sub sub sub sub segment, fictional women around the World.

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Speaker 1: How do ween? In addition O, yes, today we are

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Speaker 1: talking about Sally the ragdoll from the nineteen ninety three

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Speaker 1: film Another anniversary which we keep running into. Hey, which

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Speaker 1: is the stop motion animated film The Nightmare Before Christmas

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Speaker 1: First voice by Catherine O'Hara. I just watched this movie

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Speaker 1: the other day when I was a kid. It scared

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Speaker 1: me so bad. I don't think I watched it again

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Speaker 1: until after calling.

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Speaker 2: The first one I ever watched that I think was

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Speaker 2: last year. Oh really, because I don't care for animations.

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Speaker 2: I don't care for Tim what's his face?

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Speaker 1: Tim Burton? I said it.

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Speaker 2: So I've never watched any of his outside of like

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Speaker 2: the old school old school. So definitely watched Beetlejuice, and

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Speaker 2: definitely watched Uh Edward Scissors Hands. I think that's it though. Yeah, Oh,

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Speaker 2: he does have some surprising movies that I didn't realize

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Speaker 2: was his.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so maybe I have and I didn't realize it.

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Speaker 2: So like I'm not a big Johnny Depth fan, So hmm,

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Speaker 2: definitely not gonna watch that. Uh, but I finally watched

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Speaker 2: this last year, which, by the way, I just saw

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Speaker 2: recent TikTok saying that the children are named after their deaths.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that made me really sad. It's a dark film

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. I mean when I was

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Speaker 1: a kid, I was like, oh my god.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, oh, well, okay.

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Speaker 1: Okay, uh huh. Well, I watched it the other day

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Speaker 1: and I was just thinking about this because I was like,

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Speaker 1: I see this character come up so many times, definitely

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Speaker 1: in my goth spaces when I was going to Hot

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Speaker 1: topic in high school. Sally, I have some pajamas actually

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Speaker 1: that I got from Hot Topic. Yes, and this film

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Speaker 1: and this character did really resonate with a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: There has been a lot of debate and disagreement about

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Speaker 1: whether her character is a good or bad role model.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about that at the end. Outside of the film,

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Speaker 1: she has been featured in comics, books, and video games,

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Speaker 1: including the Kingdom Heart series, which I loved. Sally's song,

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Speaker 1: the song she sings in it that it is called

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Speaker 1: Sally's Song has been covered at numerous times, including by

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Speaker 1: Evanescence frontwoman Amy Lee, which I forgot until I was

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Speaker 1: researching this. There's also a line about it in the

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Speaker 1: Blink twenty eighty two song I Miss You, which I

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Speaker 1: was very good at on my karaoke game that I

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Speaker 1: had on PlayStation. Halsey will alternate with Catherine O'Hara as

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Speaker 1: Sally in an upcoming live production of The Nightmare for

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Speaker 1: Christmas at the Hollywood Bowl. Apparently they've been doing this

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Speaker 1: for many years. Any listeners have been let us know

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Speaker 1: Billie Eilish saying the role a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: The costume was allegedly inspired by Selena Kyle Catwoman from

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Speaker 1: Batman Returns, which is another holiday movie that we did.

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Speaker 1: You can see our episode on it. But yeah, let's

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Speaker 1: talk about this character. When we first meet Sally, who

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Speaker 1: is a patchwork rag doll made of found fabrics, Her

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Speaker 1: dress is made of found fabrics, and she is stuffed

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Speaker 1: with dead leaves living in Halloween Town in the film,

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Speaker 1: she longs for independence. Her creator, controlling mad scientist Doctor Finkelstein,

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Speaker 1: definitely a reference to Doctor Frankenstein, keeps her locked up

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Speaker 1: in his tower, though she has tried to escape several

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Speaker 1: times after the Halloween party. She manages to get away

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Speaker 1: from him by undoing the threat on her arm, and

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Speaker 1: she dismembers her arm. She does this a lot, but

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Speaker 1: due to her nature, she is able to put herself

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Speaker 1: back together. She secretly follows pumpkin king Jack skelling Ten

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Speaker 1: and her crush up to the moonlit Spiral Hill and

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Speaker 1: hears him sing about how he isn't happy with Halloween anymore.

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Speaker 1: He's bored, basically. Sally returns to the doctor for her

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Speaker 1: arm and wants it's reattached. She tricks and poisons the

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Speaker 1: doctors so she can go to the town meeting that

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Speaker 1: Jack is called, where he gushes about his experiences in

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Speaker 1: Christmas Town. A little unsettled, Sally heads back to the

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Speaker 1: tower where the scientist locks her up, but Sally escapes

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Speaker 1: by jumping out a window with a basket of food

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Speaker 1: and drink, and in doing so scatters her body parts

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Speaker 1: in the fall, but she easily reattaches them. She gives

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Speaker 1: the basket to Jack, but flees out of shyness. While

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Speaker 1: plucking the pedals of Forget Me nots, she sees a

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Speaker 1: vision of a Christmas tree bursting into flames. She goes

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Speaker 1: to warn Jack, but he dismisses her concerns. Desperate to

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Speaker 1: put an end to Jack's plan to take over Christmas

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Speaker 1: on Christmas Eve, Sally whips up a batch of fog

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Speaker 1: making potion so that she will be unable to take

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Speaker 1: off in his sleigh. However, Jack's dog Zero foils her

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Speaker 1: plan when he illuminates his nose red Nose and lights

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Speaker 1: the way. Once Jack is gone, Sally overhears how terrible

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Speaker 1: his Christmas is being received, like the military is talking

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Speaker 1: about shooting him out of the sky, and decides to

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Speaker 1: rescue Santa Claus, who's being held prisoner by town villain

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Speaker 1: Oogie Boogie. Sally formulates a plan which involves distracting a

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Speaker 1: gee with a flash of her unbeknownst to him, dismembered

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Speaker 1: sexy leg As. She almost succeeds in fringing Santa, but

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Speaker 1: has captured herself. Jack, realizing what he's done, returns to

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Speaker 1: Hallween Town and fights Ugie Freese, Sally, and Santa Claus,

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Speaker 1: just in time for him Santa Claus to save Christmas,

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Speaker 1: but not before Santa issues a stern warning that she

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Speaker 1: had listen to Sally because she's the only one with

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Speaker 1: any sense around here. Jack is on the verge of

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Speaker 1: revealing his feelings for Sally, but they are interrupted because

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Speaker 1: they have to have that scene in their removie. But

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Speaker 1: eventually they both make their way to the Spiral Hill

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Speaker 1: and reveal their feelings for each other, hugging and kissing.

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Speaker 1: They or is it because We're not going to go

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Speaker 1: in depth on this because I haven't read these things.

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Speaker 1: But in the comics and books, they get married and

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Speaker 1: maybe have kids, like four kids.

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Speaker 2: I know this is a comic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, comics and book. I think it's after the fact,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, she becomes the Pumpkin Queen and she was

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Speaker 1: the one, the only one who never gets fooled by Oki,

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Speaker 1: but gets kidnapped a lot. She rescues Zero. I'm not sure,

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Speaker 1: un listeners, let us know it came out. The book

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Speaker 1: The Pumpkin Queen came out I think last year, so

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Speaker 1: it's pretty recent. But there is some stuff I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about with this character because I have been watching.

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Speaker 1: I'm behind on my Halloween movies because I've been so busy,

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Speaker 1: but that means I've been like watching when I have

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Speaker 1: the chance, a ton of them at once, and I

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Speaker 1: think that overload of Halloween slash Horror movies brought me

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Speaker 1: back to that point. Lauren and I did a whole

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Speaker 1: episode on it before you came on as host, Samantha,

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Speaker 1: Why didn't you believe her? It shows up in like

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Speaker 1: every horror movie, I swear to God, there is a

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Speaker 1: woman who is like, this is bad, we shouldn't do this,

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Speaker 1: and they're all like, ah, it's under control. I know

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Speaker 1: what I'm doing. And it was very present in this movie.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting because this is her like crush her love,

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Speaker 1: but she's also not really chill with going on with

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Speaker 1: this plan. She just she tries to foil it a lot.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about that more in a second. Another

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Speaker 1: thing I found with the whole article about recognizing abuse,

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Speaker 1: and it was using this movie as an example, and

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Speaker 1: it was saying, like, you know, the doctor's controlling behavior

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Speaker 1: is verbal abuse. Oh yeah, it's very disturbing, like ownership

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Speaker 1: and entitlement. So here are some quotes from him. You

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Speaker 1: want me to starve an old man like me who

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Speaker 1: hardly has strength as it is me to whom you

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Speaker 1: own your very life, like very much manipulative, like say

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Speaker 1: I will die that you you have to stay here's

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Speaker 1: another one. You're mine, you know, I made you with

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Speaker 1: my own hands. And later when he's like dissatisfied with Sally,

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Speaker 1: he makes a new version of Sally that he says

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Speaker 1: will be an improvement. He puts the calf his brain

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Speaker 1: in her, I think, And then there's like examples of

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Speaker 1: physical abuse like locking her up, strabbing her down, and

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Speaker 1: holding things important to her so she has to come

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Speaker 1: back like her arm. There's no support in the town.

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Speaker 1: Like he's definitely not meant to be seen in a

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Speaker 1: good light. But it's very disturbing for sure. And that

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Speaker 1: brings us to the next point that she is defined

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Speaker 1: a lot through her relationships to men in her life.

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Speaker 1: She is like a damsel in distress. I guess because

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Speaker 1: she was the smart one. She was the one that

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Speaker 1: was like, this is bad, this is wrong. I've got

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Speaker 1: a need to fix it. I'll do it myself, but

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Speaker 1: still ultimately did need Jack to rescue her. That whole

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Speaker 1: idea of meant to be, which I believe is what

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Speaker 1: my pajamas say. They became like a really romantic couple,

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Speaker 1: like especially for goth emo kids, like it was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: Jack and Sally, which is why said that, and I

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Speaker 1: have actually some different points about that, some different quotes

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Speaker 1: of people who disagree. So here's one from Romper. The

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Speaker 1: whole thing plays out like a narcissist wet dream, the

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Speaker 1: story of a man who, in spite of a great folly,

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Speaker 1: gets to retain his status as compelling and beloved genius,

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Speaker 1: winding up with the quiet, mousey girl who underplays her

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Speaker 1: own ingenuity to worship him. Looking at it from Sally's

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Speaker 1: point of view, it's basically vicarious wish fulfillment for every

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Speaker 1: quiet girl who ever loved the lead singer in a band.

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Speaker 1: I will say I found this article had like a

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Speaker 1: lot of interesting points, but a lot of them. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: you read an article that's like, let's talk about sexism

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Speaker 1: and a thing, and it feels like the articles kind

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Speaker 1: of being sexist, and this had a few examples of that.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that was the case. There were just

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Speaker 1: a few where I was like, wait a minute.

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Speaker 2: Wait.

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Speaker 1: They also tried to make the point that Sally's a stalker,

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Speaker 1: which I think is a fair point, but also I

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Speaker 1: don't know, she's just kind of like wandering around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she discovered that he's doing something bad.

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Speaker 1: It's like oh, maybe I need to keep an eye

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Speaker 1: on this. Yeah. Yeah, And she was very shy and like,

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Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, if I don't know if the

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Speaker 1: genders had been reversed, but to me it felt less stockream,

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Speaker 1: more like she's trying to build up the courage. And

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Speaker 1: then Jack is singing this song and she's like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: that's a bad idea. Wait a minute, maybe I need

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Speaker 1: to stop this. Yes, And here's a quote from Marvelous

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Speaker 1: Geeks Media. Unlike everyone else, she refrains from showering Jack

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Speaker 1: with constant praise and adulation. Being in love doesn't meet

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Speaker 1: ignoring the object of your affections. Faults are staying quiet

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Speaker 1: when they're about to make a huge mistake. Sally is

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Speaker 1: the only one who tries to dissuade Jack from taking

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Speaker 1: over Christmas, imploring that he give up on his plan

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Speaker 1: to no avail. And in this they point out some

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Speaker 1: quotes from Sally's song A Lot of People did that,

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Speaker 1: where she's kind of like, I wish I could just

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Speaker 1: go along with him, but I can't. It's wrong, doesn't

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Speaker 1: work for me. Jack Skellington is that guy who did

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Speaker 1: a single study abroad semester in Christmas down and thinks

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Speaker 1: he knows everything, the one who assumes that because he's

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Speaker 1: really really good at one thing, he must be equally

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Speaker 1: good at anything else he wants to do. Everyone else

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Speaker 1: is so for up Jack's bony ass that they're either

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Speaker 1: enamored with everything he says and does or too intimidated

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Speaker 1: to say otherwise. Still, it's Sally, the person who actually

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Speaker 1: loves him the most, who has enough respect for him

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Speaker 1: and her own intelligence to tell him the truth. That

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Speaker 1: was a very funny with a lot of funny quotes

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Speaker 1: from that article, which is the Marvelous Geeks one. Here's

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Speaker 1: a quote from Bussel. Sally even gets her own song,

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Speaker 1: but the subtext that said song is I don't see

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Speaker 1: any of this working out, including my feelings for that

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Speaker 1: ridiculous man over there. That very much goes against the

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Speaker 1: classic dough White hope of snow White or Cindrella. They

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Speaker 1: were making the point that she's technically a Disney princess

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Speaker 1: because Disney helps the nightmare before Christmas.

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Speaker 2: Is she is she considered.

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Speaker 1: That well, I mean just technically a lot of people

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Speaker 1: like to fight about it, but she's in the Disney

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Speaker 1: realm of what would be leading ladies. Mm hmm, okay,

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Speaker 1: often princess. Not that Sally is void of positivity or

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Speaker 1: do eyes, but she's very heavily married to realism and

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Speaker 1: not waiting for her prince or king to save the day.

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Speaker 1: I mean that guy is actually causing all this trouble place. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she has a crush, but she doesn't passively stand by

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Speaker 1: and dwell on it. Instead, she poses herself to act

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Speaker 1: for a better cause, making a valiant effort to rescue

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Speaker 1: Santa cause. And then I thought this was really interesting.

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Speaker 1: This is a quote I got from screenwriter of the

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Speaker 1: movie Caroline Thompson, but I got it via Din of Geek.

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Speaker 1: If she were writing the character now, Thompson said to

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Speaker 1: Al Horner, she would give Sally even more of her

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Speaker 1: own self. Was it ending? In particular, she feels she

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Speaker 1: let the character down somewhat. I felt like, that's where

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Speaker 1: I kind of threw her under the bus. That's a

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Speaker 1: less than character, where she was sort of a meshed

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Speaker 1: and enslaved in her adoration of Jack. I wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: used those words at the time, but in retrospect, I

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Speaker 1: think that's what I was feeling.

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Speaker 2: Huh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I thought that was interesting from the screenwriter. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would say it's definitely that the end always kind

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Speaker 1: of feels like, oh, they're kissing now.

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Speaker 2: To me, I mean, it's kind of the whole level

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Speaker 2: of like you can't just leave it be. They have

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Speaker 2: to be like the man has to somehow trump can.

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Speaker 2: I kind of felt that the same way about completely

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Speaker 2: different genre, but the newer version of Mad Max, Like

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Speaker 2: it could have just been left alone, but you still

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Speaker 2: needed that dude to be the one that rescues and

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Speaker 2: sacrifice himself right right.

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Speaker 1: And it's still like, as most people rightfully pointed out,

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Speaker 1: it's still Jack's story. She's not the center of this story.

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Speaker 1: And while she does have plenty of moments, we're like okay, cool, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like that. I like that she's still ultimately kind

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Speaker 1: of there to prop him up right and play a

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Speaker 1: role in his story. So a lot of people have

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Speaker 1: written a lot about this character, as you want to

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Speaker 1: be able to tell. Yeah, And I didn't know it

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Speaker 1: was the thirtieth anniversary.

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Speaker 2: We always do this.

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of movie My friend and I

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Speaker 1: we were watching Hokus Focus and I was like a

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Speaker 1: lot of movies came out in nineteen ninety three, and

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Speaker 1: we went on this whole rabbit hole of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this one too and this one too. So a lot

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Speaker 1: of anniversaries this year, but yeah, yeah, I would love

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Speaker 1: to hear from listeners. If you have any thoughts about this,

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Speaker 1: I had to go find my pajamas see what they

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Speaker 1: say on that. You can email us with thoughts our

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Speaker 1: suggestions for this segment. Stephania mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.

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Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff We Never told you.

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Speaker 1: and we have a book you can find at stuff

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Speaker 1: you should read books dot com. Thanks It's always to

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Speaker 1: our super producer Christina, executive producer Maya, and your contributor Joey.

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Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I

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