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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Has the Zodiac serial killer case finally been cracked and

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Speaker 2: is it linked to a starlet? A dismembered actress repeat, dismembered,

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Speaker 2: her limbs not attached to her body, severed just above

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Speaker 2: the waist and positioned for a mom and a child

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Speaker 2: out on a walk to find half her body. Are

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Speaker 2: they connected? On Nancy Grace? This is Crime Stories. I

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Speaker 2: want to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: An active serial killer terrorizes northern California, launching a violent

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Speaker 3: rampage and identifying himself through the media as the Zodiac Killer,

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Speaker 3: spreading fear.

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Speaker 4: Across the state.

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Speaker 2: The Zodiac Killer's case very complex, but what we need

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Speaker 2: to know bottom line, he was a mad dog killer

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Speaker 2: that killed seemingly at random. The modus operandi method of

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Speaker 2: operation is very very different between the known Zodiac murders.

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Speaker 2: A slew of dead bodies typically found on lover's lanes

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Speaker 2: where couples were alone together, Very very different from the

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Speaker 2: murder the intricately planned, meticulously carried out murder of a

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Speaker 2: young Hollywood Sterlet listen.

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Speaker 5: It was headlines for thirty days straight.

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Speaker 6: They had one thousand law enforcement officers working on the case.

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Speaker 6: This is Los Angeles's most notorious unsolved murder.

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Speaker 7: It was Elizabeth Short. She was nude, she had been

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Speaker 7: bisected at the waist, bottom half of her body was

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Speaker 7: posed obscenely, her body bore torture marks, and her off

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Speaker 7: was cut ear to ear into a hideous grin.

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Speaker 6: I started looking at the crime itself, and what I discovered,

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Speaker 6: to my surprise, was that the killer was a surgeon,

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Speaker 6: not a meat cutter, not a butcher, a skilled professional surgeon.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a lot of content, a lot of information

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Speaker 2: to digest. That's for our friends at forty eight hours

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Speaker 2: and et Entertainment tonight. Okay, let's take that one thing

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Speaker 2: at a time. When you're trying a case, you do

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Speaker 2: not want to mix up your evidence in front of

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Speaker 2: that jury. A thousand l law enforcement on the case

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Speaker 2: of Elizabeth Short, they said, nude, bisected at the waist,

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Speaker 2: the bottom half of her body posed obscenely. I guess

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Speaker 2: that means with her legs apart, her body had torture marks,

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Speaker 2: her mouth cut ear to ear in a hideous grin.

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Speaker 5: A lah.

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Speaker 2: The joker in the Batman series is called a Glasgow smile.

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Speaker 2: That is when the victim's face has been cut from

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Speaker 2: the edges of the mouth up toward the ears to

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Speaker 2: make a permanent smile. Who would do that? And then

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Speaker 2: we hear Steve Hodell, a retired LAPD, state that the

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Speaker 2: killer of Elizabeth Short aka Black Dahlia was not a

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Speaker 2: meat cutter, not a butcher, but a skilled professional surgeon.

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Speaker 2: Joining me in all Star panel, what does Elizabeth Short's

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Speaker 2: murder and bisection have to do with the Zodiac killer

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Speaker 2: years later? Are they one in the same? Straight out

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Speaker 2: to Joseph Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,

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Speaker 2: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and host

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Speaker 2: of a hit podcast series Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 2: First of all, I seeing a fair many dismemberment bisection.

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Speaker 2: That's a whole another can of worms. Joe Scott Morgan

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Speaker 2: bi section, explain it.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, we're not cutting in the vertical plane. We're cutting

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Speaker 8: in the horizontal plane, which means across the body. If

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Speaker 8: you just think about where your umbul likeas is your

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Speaker 8: navel cut inferior to that area all the way across

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Speaker 8: the body. The interesting thing about the incision, that particular incision,

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Speaker 8: Nancy is that the margins are what are referred to,

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Speaker 8: and this is the reason Hodel is making this comment.

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Speaker 8: The margins are very neat and clean. So this gives

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Speaker 8: you an indication that this wasn't a standard butchery type

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Speaker 8: of event. This is something that would have taken time,

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Speaker 8: It would have taken a certain amount of skill. And

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Speaker 8: also going back to dismemberment Nancy, these cases that we've

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Speaker 8: seen both in practice and covering in the news, it

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Speaker 8: requires privacy, It requires a location that you can go

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Speaker 8: to where no one else is going to see you,

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Speaker 8: and it takes time, so you have to have time

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Speaker 8: with the body alone, and the body has been prepped.

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Speaker 8: Here we have to think about that there were reports

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Speaker 8: where they were talking about that her body had actually

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Speaker 8: been cleaned Nancy washed down those sorts of things, and

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Speaker 8: even in one bit that I read, at some point

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Speaker 8: in time, part of her bowels were actually tucked beneath

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Speaker 8: the body. So this is somebody that not only felt

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Speaker 8: comfortable in a private space with her doing this to her,

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Speaker 8: but also out there at that scene and laying her out,

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Speaker 8: I guess in the early morning hours where you could

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Speaker 8: run the risk of being caught or being seen out

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Speaker 8: there this person had no compunction about this.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know what, Joe Scott Morgan, the way that

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Short was murdered and bisected is even more intricate.

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Speaker 9: Listen, the crime is extremely personal. Elizabeth's organ's removed and

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Speaker 9: her body drained of blood before she's moved to the

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Speaker 9: lot where she's discovered. The heinous nature of the crime

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Speaker 9: leads to floods of vague tips that leave officers wading

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Speaker 9: through suspects a grand jury. Here's evidence regarding more than

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Speaker 9: twenty possible perps, but never indicts.

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Speaker 2: Before I go to our expert on the connection, the

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Speaker 2: perceived connection between Black Dolly, Elizabeth Schwartz murder and bi

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Speaker 2: section and the Zodiac killer, that would be Alex Baber

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Speaker 2: joining US director at Cold Case Consultants of America, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that you must have seen Dexter for Pete's sake,

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Speaker 2: and one of his arch nemesis, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: spoil it for anybody if you're watching reruns, was that

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Speaker 2: the Ice truck Killer was his own bio brother. The

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Speaker 2: Ice Truck Killer was one of the first time the

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Speaker 2: general population had heard about draining a body of its

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Speaker 2: blood before disposing of the body Black Dahlia aka Elizabeth Short,

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Speaker 2: who was bisected. Her body had been drained of blood

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Speaker 2: before moved to the lot where she's discovered. What does

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Speaker 2: that tell you? And how in the hay do you

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Speaker 2: drain a body of blood?

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Speaker 8: Well, if you even if you look at this classic

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Speaker 8: image of from Ed Dean's house where you've got one

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Speaker 8: of his victims has been trussed up and just like

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Speaker 8: you would a deer, and the body that lady's body

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Speaker 8: was actually inverted. So my speculation there's no way to

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Speaker 8: really trans down. Yeah, and so my thought is that

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Speaker 8: the quickest way to do this is to you have

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Speaker 8: to suspend the body. So let's just say that that

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Speaker 8: you do this by section. You would literally have to

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Speaker 8: take the lower torso and suspend it, perhaps by the ankles,

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Speaker 8: so that you can drain the blood in that, whereas

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Speaker 8: with the upper torso you've made this major incision. You

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Speaker 8: can't just count on gravity to gently pull the blood out.

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Speaker 8: You would need to do it as quickly as you

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Speaker 8: possibly could, so perhaps suspend the body by the wrist

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Speaker 8: or And if this is done in a post bortem state,

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Speaker 8: you're not necessarily going to see any contusions on the wrist,

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Speaker 8: and you might see some kind of a braided areas,

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Speaker 8: but I haven't heard of anything like that.

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Speaker 2: So that's Scott, you've gone deaf comb for what I

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Speaker 2: think you just said now I'm just a trial lawyer.

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Speaker 2: Is that because she was likely already dead at the

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Speaker 2: time she was bisected, that you're not going to see

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Speaker 2: bruising Once you're already dead. Your heart's no longer beating

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Speaker 2: and you don't bruise anymore, So any bruises if this

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Speaker 2: was done post mortem, after death, there would be no bruises,

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Speaker 2: he said, braided. That means, uh, maybe an impression was

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Speaker 2: left on the skin. Yes, let me think. Okay, so

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Speaker 2: if I take this teacup and I sit it right here,

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Speaker 2: after a while, there'll be a mark on my skin. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So that could be left post mortem.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it's potential, but we can tell the difference between

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Speaker 8: post mortem and anti mortem prior to death. But the

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Speaker 8: watchword here, Nancy, in the draining is going to be gravity.

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Speaker 8: So you've got this gravitational pull where you know, blood

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Speaker 8: is like any other fluid, it's going to seek the

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Speaker 8: lowest point of gravity. So the blood would have to

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Speaker 8: be pulled out and hence drink. And this is something

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Speaker 8: that is commonly done in butchery. You see it everywhere,

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Speaker 8: you know, when bodies are actually embalmed, the fluids are

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Speaker 8: pushed through the body with a pump. I don't think

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Speaker 8: that that's what's happened here. There's no indication that there's

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Speaker 8: any kind of injection sites or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: Scott Baber and others believe that Elizabeth Short's body was

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Speaker 2: bisected and likely drained at a motel, the Zodiac Motel,

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Speaker 2: possibly in the bathroom in the bathtub. I don't see that.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying.

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Speaker 2: Zodiac is not the killer of Elizabeth Short yet, but

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Speaker 2: I'm saying I don't think that could go down in

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Speaker 2: a moteil bathtub because you have to suspend the body

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Speaker 2: to drain it of blood. That's where I'm going with this.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, Well, it would depend upon how prepared the person

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Speaker 8: was to do this, that they could bring something with them,

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Speaker 8: just like they would bring tools. All right, So if

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Speaker 8: this is something that they've planned out in their mind,

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Speaker 8: you know, and here's something curious about the bathtub, and

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Speaker 8: you could not go back and do this now. But

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Speaker 8: you know, in modern cases like this. I know of

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Speaker 8: at least three off the top of my head that

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Speaker 8: I've covered where you go into all of these, all

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Speaker 8: of these to the plumbing and you pull out the

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Speaker 8: drain traps and you can find blood, you can find

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Speaker 8: other tissue. People think that everything gets washed away, and

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Speaker 8: that's not necessarily the case. That's something that would have had

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Speaker 8: to have been done back then.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I believe that was done in this case.

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, and you're absolutely correct.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: To doctor Angela Arnold joining us renownced psychiatrist and Angela

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Speaker 2: Arnold m d. Angela, I'm asking you for a forensic reason.

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Speaker 2: I find it hard to believe in Baber disagrees with

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Speaker 2: me that the same man that murdered Elizabeth Short so

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Speaker 2: meticulously bisected her like a surgeon him is his mo

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Speaker 2: modus operati method of operation In that case, it is

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Speaker 2: entirely than he wasn't seen. He's never spotted, even though

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Speaker 2: he put the remains in a neighborhood area for pedestrians

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Speaker 2: to find.

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Speaker 1: Never seen.

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Speaker 2: So how does that jive with the mo of the

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Speaker 2: Zodiac killer, who basically hunts down whoever he can find

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Speaker 2: on lover's Lane and shoots him dead. He's actually spotted

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Speaker 2: for Pete's sake, an eyewitness sees him. Is very haphazard

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Speaker 2: compared to the murder of Elizabeth Short. How could that

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Speaker 2: be the same person, because I believe Elizabeth Short's killer

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Speaker 2: had to go through this process, this almost religious moment

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Speaker 2: where he kills the woman. He bisects her, he drains

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Speaker 2: her blood, he wipes her body down and cleans it,

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Speaker 2: He poses her in a certain way, he gives her

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Speaker 2: a Glasgow smile. Is that the same guy that sneaks

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Speaker 2: up on lovers on Lover's Lane shoots them dead.

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Speaker 10: I do agree with you, Nancy, I since when we

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Speaker 10: look at serial killers, we try to see commonalities in

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Speaker 10: what they do, and these two things are so completely different,

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Speaker 10: between the ritual and the haphazardous, between the way the

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Speaker 10: way the Dahlia, the Black Dahlia was touched and manipulated

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Speaker 10: and the others were not. They were stabbed and shot,

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Speaker 10: but that was completely different than they she was killed.

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Speaker 2: Joining us from the Cold Case Research Institute, Forensic expert

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Speaker 2: and oh, they have a brand new books Swans Don't

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Speaker 2: Swim in a sewer or Solving the Cold case of

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Speaker 2: the Flint River killer's daughter, Cheryl Uh, also the star

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Speaker 2: of a highly popular podcast, Zone seven. Cheryl. The mo

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Speaker 2: os are entirely opposite. However, think of Ted Bundy. He

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Speaker 2: changed his mos, boy did he?

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Speaker 11: I think what's key for me here? Ormos can change,

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Speaker 11: but the signatures won't. The underlining intent will not change.

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Speaker 11: So what that killer needed and wanted with these murders,

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Speaker 11: that's what I would be looking at. To me, that's

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Speaker 11: critical is the.

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Speaker 2: Signature, not the mo What signature?

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Speaker 11: Well, for example, with you know Zodiac, his signature, he's

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Speaker 11: going to shoot from a distance, He's going to stalk first,

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Speaker 11: He's going to let them know he's there, almost frighten them.

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Speaker 11: He wanted that to happen. He wanted that interaction. Here,

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Speaker 11: the other killer took great time. He tortured, he's sexually assaulted.

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Speaker 11: Those are two different signatures, baselines.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I agree with you, even though I know moos

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Speaker 2: can vary. One killer can change an how However, it's

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Speaker 2: not typical. Usually the killer keeps the same m joining me. Now,

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Speaker 2: a renowned trial lawyer from this jurisdiction, you know him, well,

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Speaker 2: it's Nima Ramani. Nima Ramani. Former federal prosecutor turned trial

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Speaker 2: attorney President West Coast Trial Attorneys author Harvard to hashtag Nima,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. What do you make

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Speaker 2: the tenuous kick? Well, some would say tenuous, others say

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Speaker 2: it's clear, clear it's the same person.

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Speaker 12: What do you make of it, Nina, Well, if you're

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Speaker 12: looking at the evidence and if it's going to come in,

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Speaker 12: whether it's a four or four analysis prior about acts

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Speaker 12: or eleven oh one, which is evidence callde here in California,

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Speaker 12: and no judge is going to let this in. It's

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Speaker 12: far too speculative. It's far too tenuous. You got to

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Speaker 12: present cases based on facts and evidence and not just speculations.

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Speaker 12: So you know, it's great to talk out of people

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Speaker 12: love serial killers, but this type of connection will never

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Speaker 12: make it into any courtroom in this country.

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Speaker 2: When you analyze evidence, Nima Romani, you and I both

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Speaker 2: brought in similar transactions in front of a jury. For instance,

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Speaker 2: say the Zodiac killing is your case in chief killings

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Speaker 2: or multiple victims, you would try to bring in the

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Short murder as a similar transaction. What's similar other

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Speaker 2: than you've got a dead body, not a whole lot.

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Speaker 12: And this evidence is very powerful. We see it typically

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Speaker 12: in sexual assault cases, right Weinstein Cosby, I mean really

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Speaker 12: really tip the scales in those cases.

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Speaker 4: So judges are very.

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Speaker 12: Sensitive to this type of evidence because you can really

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Speaker 12: dirty up a defendant. It's great for the prosecution, but

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Speaker 12: if you don't have a clear connection and m O

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Speaker 12: a pattern something, and you're relying on what we have here,

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Speaker 12: which frankly is not enough, it's not gonna make it

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Speaker 12: in Nancy, you and I both know that.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it true, Nama Romani that a jury is told

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Speaker 2: during the jury instructions that they can consider if they

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Speaker 2: choose to evidence that occurred before, during, and after the murder.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that true?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely they can.

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Speaker 2: But the judge okay, well, listen to this. According to

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Speaker 2: Alex Baber, therein lies the rub what happened after the murders,

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Speaker 2: that is the link between the two. Listen.

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Speaker 13: James Richardson, the Los Angeles Examiner editor, receives a phone

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Speaker 13: call from a man claiming to have killed Short, who

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Speaker 13: promises to send Richardson souvenirs. Three days later, the Examiner

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Speaker 13: receives a Manila envelope containing Short's birth certificate, business cards,

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Speaker 13: and an address book with the message here is Dahlia's belongings.

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Speaker 13: Letter to follow. The paper then receives a handwritten note

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Speaker 13: quote turning in. Wednesday, January twenty ninth, ten, am had

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Speaker 13: my fun at police Black Dahlia Avenger. Police wait at

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Speaker 13: the location, the writer specifies, but no one appears to

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Speaker 13: turn themselves in.

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Speaker 2: And now joining us the man of the hour, Alex Baber.

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Speaker 2: Alex Baber is the director of the Cold Case Consultants

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Speaker 2: of America, and he is the investigative consultant who says

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Speaker 2: he has used AI in his own code breaking skills

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Speaker 2: to crack the Zodiac killer's letter. He also says Zodiac

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Speaker 2: is also the Black Dahlia Avenger, the killer. Alex Baber,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us tonight, Alex. Before I

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Speaker 2: get into the evidence in the Black Dahlia Elizabeth short case,

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Speaker 2: tell me about what happened after the murders. Both killers

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Speaker 2: began taunting the police and the media.

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Speaker 4: That's correct, Nancy, Thanks for having me. What we discovered

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Speaker 4: was that in both incidents, the perpetrator mailed in multiple

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Speaker 4: letters to multiple newspapers to announce his crime that he

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Speaker 4: committed and to take credit for it.

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Speaker 9: Sign Francisco.

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Speaker 14: I was a killer and it's Matt.

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Speaker 2: He had this black hood on, little slits in the eyes.

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Speaker 15: He goes around killing the by rope, by gun, by knife,

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Speaker 15: and he says, I'm going to call myself Zodiac.

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Speaker 2: American law enforcement hasn't ever seen anything like this.

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Speaker 10: It turned into a public obsession, the TV shows, the books,

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Speaker 10: the movie.

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Speaker 15: I want you to print this cipher on your front page.

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Speaker 2: Zodiac was different. He got away with it. This from Netflix.

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Speaker 2: This is the Zodiac speaking.

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Speaker 3: The Zodiac Killer taunts law enforcement, sending cryptic letters in

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Speaker 3: coded messages to newspapers police to stop him while threatening

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Speaker 3: more violence.

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Speaker 2: Has a Zodiac serial killer case been cracked? And is

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Speaker 2: the black Dahlia Avenger who murdered a young starlet and

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Speaker 2: bisected her body? One and the same? Is it the

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Speaker 2: Zodiac Killer? Joining me in All Star Pall straight out

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Speaker 2: to your special guest Rachel Sharp, joining us investigative crime

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Speaker 2: reporter for Dailymail dot com who got a worldwide exclusive

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Speaker 2: on this case. Rachel Sharp, what do you make of it?

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Speaker 5: Well?

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Speaker 16: To me, the evidence is, you know, the case alex

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Speaker 16: is presented is very compelling. There's a lot of links

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Speaker 16: between the two crimes connecting the suspect, Malvin melchol List

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Speaker 16: to both cases.

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Speaker 2: Rachel Sharp, you say there are a lot of links

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Speaker 2: between the two. I find the sciph the taunting in

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Speaker 2: both cases to be a link. What other link do

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Speaker 2: you think is probative proves that they're one and the same.

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Speaker 16: So a lot of a lot of the links between

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Speaker 16: the two. It's a lot of circumstantial, circumstantial evidence that

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Speaker 16: you know, through Alex's investigation he has unearthed, obviously, the

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Speaker 16: big one being the solving of the Z thirteen cipher. Now,

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Speaker 16: many people have tried to solve that before. Alex has

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Speaker 16: found a solution, and the solution actually points to the

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Speaker 16: name of one of the prime suspects in the Black

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Speaker 16: Dahlia murder. What makes that quite compelling is that that

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Speaker 16: evidence was presented to the chief US codemaker and codebreaker

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Speaker 16: for the NSA Giorgio, and he is verified Gant. So

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Speaker 16: you know you have one of the top cipher experts

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Speaker 16: saying that they believe that that solution is correct.

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Speaker 2: Rachel Sharp, Is there any forensic evidence or any proof

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Speaker 2: at all that Black Dahlias killer e lizbuth Schwartz killer

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Speaker 2: actually killed her at the Zodiac Motel.

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Speaker 16: So at the time police believed that she was murdered

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Speaker 16: elsewhere because, as mentioned previously, she was found without blood.

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Speaker 16: There was no blood at the crime scene, so they

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Speaker 16: believed that she was killed elsewhere, and the police was

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Speaker 16: searching for was that she was killed in a bathtub,

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Speaker 16: and that was how they know they didn't find this

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Speaker 16: grizzly crime scene anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm not hearing anything that says she was

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Speaker 2: killed at Zodiac Motel. Do you have any evidence suggesting

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Speaker 2: she was killed at Zodiac Motel anything? I mean, you're

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Speaker 2: saying a bathtub. I don't know that. What bathtub? Where?

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Speaker 2: Is anything?

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Speaker 1: I know?

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Speaker 2: Alex baber that there was an eyewitness at the time

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Speaker 2: that stated he saw a mail at Zodiac Motel that

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Speaker 2: generally fit the description of your perp, but there was

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Speaker 2: never a positive ID, no blood. Is there something else

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Speaker 2: linking him Margolis to Zodiac Motel?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Actually the account wasn't at the motel itself. What

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Speaker 4: it was is there's three independent eyewitness accounts, three managers

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Speaker 4: of three other motels that evening on the fourteenth, where

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Speaker 4: this individual fitting Margolis's description and his vehicle parks of

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Speaker 4: block away, goes in asks for a room with a

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Speaker 4: tub and specific they say they don't have one. If

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Speaker 4: you mark the hotels and you follow the line, then

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Speaker 4: you have a credible witness at the end, which is

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Speaker 4: a D ANDV investigator. Her name's Ireen Donaldson. She says

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Speaker 4: she sees them coming northeast on San Antonio, turning north

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Speaker 4: on Orange and at that point she witnesses Elizabeth Short

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Speaker 4: in the back of the vehicle being pinioned by a

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Speaker 4: male figure with two other individuals in their front seat,

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Speaker 4: one being a male driving and the pastor site being

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Speaker 4: a female. If you draw a line from that to

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Speaker 4: the location her bodies was discovered.

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Speaker 17: The only motel in between the Zodiac Motel, which was

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Speaker 17: just opened in June of nineteen forty six, six months prior,

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Speaker 17: and it had specifically a tub, which was not common

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Speaker 17: according to records in the area at that time.

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Speaker 4: Most of them had showers.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you have someone generally fitting Margola's description with

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Speaker 2: a woman in the front seat, and the only motel

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Speaker 2: that had a tub in the area was Zodiac. But

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Speaker 2: I don't have anybody placing him or her as Zodiac.

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Speaker 2: I don't have a receipt nothing like that, but you

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Speaker 2: are triangulating the location and determining that was the only

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Speaker 2: motel with a tub at the time.

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Speaker 4: Well, we also discovered the fact they found out a

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Speaker 4: canvas ice bag just north of where her body was dropped.

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Speaker 4: That canvas ice bag is marked with a wing letter,

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Speaker 4: which is a red letter Z. Doing our research, we

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Speaker 4: discovered that at that time, the ice trucks that came

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Speaker 4: along usually labeled the canvas ice back to the first

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Speaker 4: initial of the hotel or motel they were dropping off

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Speaker 4: the ice at. And this was again discovered just north

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Speaker 4: of where her body was and there's documentation on this

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Speaker 4: in the reports.

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Speaker 2: The leap from Elizabeth Short, Black Dahlia Avenger Killer to Zodiac. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I've told you what happened in Black Dahlia, in her murder,

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Speaker 2: her bisection, in her posing meticulously murdered at her body,

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Speaker 2: very very carefully prepared for a display. Let's analyze what

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Speaker 2: happened with Zodiac.

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Speaker 3: December twentieth, high school students Betty Lou Jensen and David

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Speaker 3: Faraday drive to the outskirts of Vallejo and Park on

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Speaker 3: a secluded lover's lane. Passing drivers noticed the couple around

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Speaker 3: ten thirty and eleven PM. Minutes later, another driver parks

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Speaker 3: ten feet behind and fires shots at the car. The

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Speaker 3: teens scramble to exit and David is shot in the head.

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Speaker 3: Betty Lou is shot in the back five times as

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Speaker 3: she flees. The couple is found ten minutes later, neither surviving.

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Speaker 3: The killer leaves no evidence.

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Speaker 2: But that's not the end. The Zodiac chiller goes on listen.

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Speaker 9: Six months later, Darlene Farren and Michael McGough are parked

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Speaker 9: at Blue Rock Springs Park when what they think is

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Speaker 9: the cop car pulls up. Michael rolls down the window

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Speaker 9: and is shot in the arm. The bullet hits Darlene

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Speaker 9: in the neck. The attacker shoots the couple twice more

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Speaker 9: each and disappears. Three months after that, Cecilia Shepherd and

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Speaker 9: Brian Hartnell are attacked on the beach of Lake Berry,

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Speaker 9: YESA bound and stabbed. Hartnell survives, describing a man in

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Speaker 9: a black hood with a Scope symbol on his clothing.

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Speaker 9: The attacker wrote the same symbol on their car door

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Speaker 9: with the message twelve twenty sixty eight seven four sixty

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Speaker 9: nine September twenty seven sixty nine, six point thirty by knife.

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Speaker 11: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Alex Baber, that's very convincing to me that the

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Speaker 2: person attacked all of the couples. Did you notice where

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Speaker 2: the dates of those murders were written on the side

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Speaker 2: of those last victim's car, that the Black Dahlie Elizabeth

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Speaker 2: Short is not mentioned.

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Speaker 4: It's not part of the zodiac Moniker at that point.

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Speaker 4: What it is is Elizabeth Short's murder or homicide was personal.

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Speaker 4: Everybody agrees upon that. He stopped her for three months,

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Speaker 4: he found her at the last minute, furse, he left town,

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Speaker 4: the isolatesor the he mutilates her, the bisexer, and the

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Speaker 4: indenty stages her body. The zodiac taking place from twenty

432
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 4: three years later has no personal connection at this point,

433
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 4: he's older. There are connections between the location. We know

434
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 4: Elizabeth Short arrived at Valeo in nineteen forty two and

435
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 4: December twentieth, the same date as the initial attack. We

436
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,479
Speaker 4: also know that her father stage is drowning on October eleventh,

437
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,959
Speaker 4: nineteen thirty, the act same date that Paul Stein was murdered.

438
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 4: There's all these other links that are that are in

439
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 4: their circumstantial right, But what we do have is physical

440
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 4: webnence supporting our circumstantial evidence and us knowing that Elizabeth

441
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 4: had a personal connection to Valleo. There's over four hundred

442
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 4: and fifty cities and towns in California and you have

443
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 4: these two in Valleo is not a very very well

444
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 4: known city outside of the zdiec attacks. Right, It's kind

445
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 4: of a mom and pop town, or it used to

446
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 4: be at that time. With that being said, if it

447
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 4: wasn't personal for him to commit the shrines in Valao,

448
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 4: why not to Sco thirty minutes you know, to the

449
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: west and take all of his attacks in San Francisco.

450
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 4: So as far as an mo goes, he changes MO

451
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 4: within his own MO. He start out shooting couples with firearm,

452
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 4: and then you change to killing or attacking couples with

453
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 4: a bladed weapon, and then you isolate an adult male

454
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 4: in a cab in an upscale neighborhood. So the whole

455
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 4: REMO thing is it's not going to stand with most

456
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 4: people out there. From the fact is is that other

457
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 4: people like D'Angelo his MO evolved the Gold State killer

458
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 4: you mentioned Bundy, I can give you a list of

459
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 4: infamous cases that are very similar. So the signature has

460
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 4: even changed but what happens is when somebody evolves, they

461
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 4: get older, their signature does change.

462
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: The killer keeps his identity hidden, targeting young victims in

463
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 3: isolated locations, while the public lives in fear, never knowing

464
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: when or where he may strike next.

465
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: Interesting that choice of words that the killer keeps his

466
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: identity hidden because he was actually spotted by some of

467
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 2: the victims wearing a black hoodie unibomber style with a

468
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: cross in a circle that many people state is a

469
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: scope like a gun scope. He was spotted. The real

470
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: similarity is the taunting of the media.

471
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 13: The Balleo Times San Francisco Chronicle in San Francisco Examiner

472
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 13: received letters taking credit for the killings of David Faraday

473
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 13: that Lou Jensen and Darlene Farrin. Each copy contains a

474
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 13: third of a four hundred and eight symbol cryptogram, which

475
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 13: the writer demands be printed on their front page. These Later,

476
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 13: a second letter arrives the first line, Dear Editor, this

477
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 13: is the Zodiac speaking. It describes the killings in detail

478
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 13: and earns the self proclaimed murderer the title Zodiac Killer.

479
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 13: Later letters include more Cipher's information on the murders, including

480
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 13: swatches of Palsteine shirt and taunts that police have no

481
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 13: leads on the Zodiac's identity.

482
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: That's absolutely the killer. He has swatches of one of

483
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: the victim's bloody shirt and included it in his letters

484
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: to the media. Just as Elizabeth Schwartz, the Black Dolly

485
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 2: is killer taunted, so is Zodiac. But that by far

486
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan would not be the first killer to

487
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: taunt media or police. You've got son of Sam Berkowitz, BTK,

488
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 2: Dennis Rader. He can stop himself from taunting. Unibamber Takezinski

489
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: and his massive manifesto. His brother recognized terms and phrases

490
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: he would use and turned him in. Gary Ridgeway typed

491
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: a letter. And of course Zodiac remains unknown. So many

492
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: killers have taunted. But what do you see is a

493
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: connection between the taunting by Zodiac and the taunting by

494
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: Black Dahlia's killer if.

495
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 8: Any Yeah, I don't know that I necessarily see connectivity here.

496
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 8: I do find it very very interesting that the geographical

497
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 8: connection when you begin to think about Vallejo, and also

498
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 8: if you go back and you look at at Elizabeth

499
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 8: Schwartz remains not only were they bisected and certainly abused, postmortemly,

500
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 8: but you know she was she was there. She also

501
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 8: had stab wounds as well, Nancy. If you go back

502
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 8: to the couple at the lake, they had multiple stab wounds.

503
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 5: You know.

504
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 8: When this character comes out of nowhere and is dressed

505
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,479
Speaker 8: in this weirdo costume. Some people described it as almost

506
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 8: looking medieval, and those stab wounds were there, So I

507
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 8: don't it. The problem is, I think it's hard to

508
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 8: have connectivity from a scientific standpoint. I'm talking about as

509
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 8: a forensic scientist here. You know, what are you going

510
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 8: to do to go back a few years ago we

511
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 8: had this Gary I think Gary Stewart guy came out

512
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 8: and said that, you know, his dad was the Syria

513
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 8: it was the Zodiac Killer. I remember being on a

514
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 8: program at some point in time relative to that claimed

515
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 8: that there was genetic connectivity in that case. And I've

516
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 8: heard other people make this claim before. So for me scientifically,

517
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 8: I'm going to have to have something. I'm going to

518
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 8: need to see something that is scientifically connective. Here the

519
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 8: tissue here. You know, we can talk about cuts all

520
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 8: day long.

521
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, You're right, I hear you. Not only

522
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 2: is there the taunting that is similar, not exactly the same,

523
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: but there is more. I want you to hear this.

524
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 3: We have identified the individual who committed these crimes.

525
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 4: He is probably the smartest criminal to ever live. He

526
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 4: had a medical background. He was a usc medical student,

527
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 4: and he was also a former marine.

528
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 9: Alex Baber, the co founder of Cold Case Consultants of America,

529
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 9: claims AI helped him definitively solve the Z thirteen cipher.

530
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 9: Baber says the program narrowed down seventy one million possible

531
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 9: names to fourteen based on age, gender, and possible experience

532
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 9: with World War two code making methods due to the

533
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 9: methods used in the Z four eighty and Z three

534
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 9: forty ciphers, and eliminated thirteen of those names with old

535
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 9: fashioned detective work, leaving Marvin Merrill as the solution to

536
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 9: the cryptogram. Ed Georgio, former NSA chief code breaker and maker,

537
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 9: reviews Baber's work and says the methods are sound to

538
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 9: the man.

539
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: Of the hour, Alex Baber, who claims that Zodiac and

540
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: the Black Dahlia Avenger is one in the same. You

541
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 2: by cracking that cipher, along with help from AI and more,

542
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,919
Speaker 2: you cracked it. You're saying that it absolutely proves that

543
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: Marvin Merrill is Zodiac. What did Marvin Merrill have to

544
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: do with Elizabeth Short?

545
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 4: Okay, so, to start out, we know that Marvin Margo

546
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 4: List was the last name boyfriend Elizabeth Short according to

547
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 4: the files, and lived together for twelve days in October.

548
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 4: We know she left October twenty second under threat from him.

549
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 4: She's on the street, picked up by a guy named

550
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 4: Glenn Kerns, who gives her a ride. They make an agreement.

551
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 4: Glynn returns to apartment seven twenty six and Margolis lived

552
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 4: in and gathers her belongings for her, and she does

553
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 4: not go. He does it for her. That tells you

554
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 4: how scared she is. He then goes on her. She

555
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 4: goes on a run from him for three months. She

556
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 4: gets on a bus even heads to San Diego, where

557
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 4: she has no friends, no family, no money, no food.

558
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 4: Is discovered in a twenty fiur theater called the Aztec

559
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 4: by the French daughter who takes her in for thirty

560
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 4: days with her mom via. She tells them, I'm fearful

561
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 4: of my ex marine boyfriend who's searching for me. That's

562
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 4: why I'm down here hiding. And then he finds her

563
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 4: because he makes She makes a phone call and asks

564
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 4: for twenty dollars from Mark Hanson, so he shows up

565
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 4: at the door beating on it that night. The next

566
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 4: day she has read mainly take her back to la

567
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 4: So he's stalking her for three months leading up to

568
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 4: her murder, and there was no missing week. We identified reports,

569
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 4: including one from officer Mary McBride, who reported her approaching

570
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 4: her in the state of hysteria. On the evening of

571
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 4: the fourteenth. She identified Elizabeth Shwort's body after she looked

572
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 4: at the pictures confirmed them. She comes back two hours

573
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 4: later she says, I'm not so sure about the identification.

574
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 4: You know, why is that? Does someone tell her to

575
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 4: change her perspective. You can't have a police officer the

576
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 4: last individual to see a woman who's just mutilated and murdered, right,

577
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 4: So that being said, she goes and she identifies the

578
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 4: body at the coroner's office. That tells you right there

579
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 4: that we have the right individual. It is Alsbee Short.

580
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 4: So there is no missing week.

581
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 2: So you're telling me, Alex Paper that by cracking the cipher,

582
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 2: you identify Marvin Merrill.

583
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 4: By cracking the cipher, we never used it as a

584
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 4: piece of evidence, Nancy, It was an investigative tool. He

585
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 4: was just one of hundreds of thousands of potential names

586
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 4: or solutions. Right. What we did do is do the

587
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 4: end of the investigation eliminate all the individuals that were

588
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 4: real world living beings opposed to just let her frequency,

589
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 4: name gathering or groupings. So we were able to eliminate

590
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 4: ninety four percent of the seventy four million at that point, right,

591
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 4: a little over seventy one million. And once we get

592
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 4: that name, we're able to say, Okay, does this guy

593
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,439
Speaker 4: have a back round, is he the right race, does

594
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 4: he have the height, does he have the features? Does

595
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 4: he have the background? You know, we identify a vehicle

596
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 4: that was witnessed at Lake Buriessa an hour and a

597
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 4: half before the murders were committed on Hart Mail and

598
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 4: Cecilia Shepherd. That vehicle, once he's arrested in seventy one,

599
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 4: is put for sale in a classified ad, the exact

600
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 4: same vehicle that was used to Lake Buriessa. Is that

601
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 4: a coincidence? And he lists under his wife's name to

602
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 4: sell the vehicle.

603
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: That's a lot of evidence, Alex. After you crack the cipher,

604
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: you then do all the investigation work you just described

605
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: in more and you come up with in the real world,

606
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: applying the knowledge from the cipher to the facts, the description,

607
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: the car, the circumstances, and you come up with one

608
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: individual where it fits, and it's Marvin Merrill. Then you

609
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: learn years before Marvin Merrill, who you now believe is

610
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 2: DAC dated lived with for I think about twelve days

611
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 2: and stoked Elizabeth Short just before her murder. Is that correct?

612
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 4: That is correct? I believe that MURVN. Merrill was always

613
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 4: a good suspect Onlizabeth Short's homicide, probably one of my

614
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 4: top five when I got the original DA files, But

615
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 4: connecting him directly to Zodiac did not happen, and so

616
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 4: I uploaded his information as Marvin Merrill got the Security

617
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 4: Administration reports and realized that he filed the name Margolis

618
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 4: and Mirro under the same Exacts security number. At that

619
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 4: point I knew it was the same individual.

620
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: So do you name it Romani? Is it starting to

621
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 2: get real?

622
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 4: Potentially?

623
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 12: Yes, Look, if you're talking about the cipher, Nancy, that's

624
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 12: an admission to me, that's not any type of link.

625
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 4: And obviously I'm no code breaker.

626
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 12: I gotta defer to the experts on that. So what

627
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 12: I'm hear in her three types of evidence, right, the

628
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 12: fact that maybe the Black Dahlia killer stayed at the

629
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,720
Speaker 12: Zodiac hoteler that's where the murder happened.

630
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 4: I don't think that's enough. Then you have the taunting

631
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 4: and he went through it. Nancy.

632
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 12: There's a lot of different killers over the years that

633
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 12: have contacted the media, even conted the media. I mean

634
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 12: throwing Bob Durst as one that I've been here in

635
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 12: LA right, so the famous Beverly letter to LAPD.

636
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 18: So you know.

637
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,439
Speaker 12: Now you have the third piece of evidence that I've heard,

638
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 12: and again I'm not an expert. Maybe I got to

639
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 12: talk to Joseph and others. Is that bayonet from decades

640
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 12: before World War Two, which may have been one of

641
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 12: the murder weapons. Again, unless I have something we know

642
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 12: as lawyers, Nancy, it's not what you think.

643
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 4: It's not even what you know. It's what you can prove.

644
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 12: But I don't think this evidence would get a guilty

645
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 12: verdict beyond a reasonable doubt. Maybe in the Black Dahlia case,

646
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 12: but certainly not in the Zodiac killer case.

647
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,240
Speaker 15: In o Kanawa, Margolis was underbombing for twenty nine days,

648
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 15: then ordered to set up a hospital. He worked long

649
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 15: hours with little sleep, under frequent air raids, saw many

650
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 15: buddies in mangled shape. His setup was in a small cave.

651
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 15: A rain caused the sides to cave in. He was

652
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 15: buried all but his head, which was held tight like

653
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 15: a vice. The next morning he dug out. He became amnesic, emotional,

654
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 15: with depression and instability.

655
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 4: By today's standards, he would be you would be flagged

656
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 4: at the local VA, meaning that doctors would say, okay,

657
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 4: this soldier here has just come back from active duty

658
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 4: overseas in combat that he needs to be watched, he

659
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 4: needs to have further psychological evaluations.

660
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: We are talking about the potential Zodiac killer being Merrill

661
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,919
Speaker 2: a k a. Margolus, and there's more.

662
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 15: The psychiatric diagnosis is as follows. The subject is calm, quiet,

663
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 15: and a resentful individual who shows ample evidence of open

664
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 15: aggression at present. This man shows a lack of interest, aims,

665
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 15: and ability to concentrate. Margolis is sullen. His personality is

666
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 15: not pleasing, apathetic, and inclined to sarcasm. He said that

667
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 15: the next time there is a war, two of us

668
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 15: are not going. The one who comes after me and myself.

669
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 4: He stated that he if there was another war, somebody

670
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 4: came for him, that two people weren't going, it would

671
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 4: be him, an individual king. So he's basically threatened the

672
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 4: life of whoever shows up at his door for a draft.

673
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: That from Killer in the Code podcast back to Alex Baber,

674
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 2: who is making a connection between Elizabeth Schwartz murder and

675
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 2: bisection to the Zodiac Killer Zodiac still is unsolved. How

676
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 2: do you believe that Margolis what he endured in the

677
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: World War could have affected him?

678
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 4: Well, PDSD they call a shell shock. At that time, Nancy,

679
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 4: it was quite common for veterans who were returning from

680
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 4: World War Two, and identifying the fact that he was

681
00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 4: discharged under fifty percent mental disability at that time evaluation

682
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 4: which part of it was just read? He was definitely

683
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 4: a loose cannon. He was explosive, and the grand jury

684
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 4: files indicate that as well. Whenever they're doing the detective

685
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 4: testimony under oath, they make that clear as well.

686
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: There is also talk of the bayonet that he Margolis

687
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 2: brought home, the Japanese bayonet. How does that factor an listen.

688
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 3: Baber also discovers an article on Marvin Margolis his heroism

689
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 3: in World War Two. Margolis is quoted in the article

690
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 3: as bringing home a Japanese rifle and bayonet he took

691
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 3: off a soldier he claimed to have killed. Baber says

692
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 3: this specific mention of the bayonet ties Margolis to the

693
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 3: Zodiac killings, as the weapon matches that used in the

694
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 3: attack on Cecilia Shepherd and Brian Hartnell, and symbols commonly

695
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 3: etched into the knives make several appearances in the Zodiac ciphers.

696
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 2: I agree with Romani on this, the speculation that the

697
00:42:54,600 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 2: bayonet from Japan and the war somehow connects to Zodiac,

698
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 2: I find that very tenuous. This is evidence that I

699
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: find to be probative, and I believe Evan Cheryl McCollum

700
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 2: and Ema Romani are going to agree. Listen.

701
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 9: Baber discovers a striking fact Margolis was a prime suspect

702
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 9: in Elizabeth Short's murder two decades before the Zodiac killings.

703
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 9: Elizabeth and Margolis dated several months before her death, and

704
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 9: Elizabeth even lived with Margolis very briefly in an apartment

705
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 9: Margoli shared with a wartime friend, Bill Robinson, who served

706
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 9: as a cryptographer and Signal Corps officer in the war

707
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 9: when question about their relationship with Short. Both Margolis and

708
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 9: Robinson were deemed untruthful by authorities, but officers had no

709
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 9: direct evidence tying Margolis to the murder.

710
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 5: What brought Margolis to the attention of the investigator was

711
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 5: that he and Elizabeth Short had shared an apartment in

712
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 5: Hollywood for twelve days in October, just three months before

713
00:43:58,280 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 5: a murderer.

714
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 2: Keryl McCollum, I'm not ready to make that connection yet,

715
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 2: Like Ramani, I wouldn't quite put it in front of

716
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 2: a jury as a similar But the fact that Margolis

717
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 2: Merril lived with Elizabeth Short, even for twelve days, they dated,

718
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: and he stalked her just before her murders, that's probative.

719
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 2: So if he is the Zodiac killer, that suggests to

720
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: me he could have been the Black Dahlia Avenger.

721
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 11: He clearly would be somebody I would want to look

722
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 11: at for Elizabeth's murder. But that's a personal connection. Again,

723
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 11: that's almost revengeful. That's how her murder looks to me.

724
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 11: I'm going to torture you, I'm going to punish you.

725
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 11: I'm going to hit you in the head. I'm going

726
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 11: to cut your tattoo off. I'm going to tie you up,

727
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 11: I'm going to cut you in half. I'm going to

728
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 11: grain your blood. That is not what I'm seeing in Zodiac.

729
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 11: It's almost like you have a lust killer in one

730
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 11: event and a mission oriented killer in the other. They

731
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 11: still seem to people to meet.

732
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 2: What about a name of Ramani.

733
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 12: Again, I think that there's evidence, certainly circumstantial evidence, that

734
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 12: Margolis or Merrill is Schwortz killer. I mean, we know

735
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 12: that today's stalker domestic violence is tomorrow's murderer. Look, if

736
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 12: anything happens to me, Nancy, my wife, should be the

737
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 12: number one suspect. So I understand that I don't understand,

738
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 12: and I can't prove the connection to Zodiac. That's the problem.

739
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 12: All we have is the motel, this bayonet. Now again,

740
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 12: if the code is an admission a confession, sure that's something.

741
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 12: But other than that, we don't have enough to prove

742
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:45,240
Speaker 12: that these are the same two individuals that killed folks

743
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 12: in Vallejo and who killed Elizabeth.

744
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,919
Speaker 2: Short Well, there's more.

745
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 3: Listen, Baber convinces Meryl's son to meet in person. Baber

746
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 3: comes clean about his theory Meryl is Zodiac and asks

747
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 3: the son if he recognizes the handwriting in the zodiac let.

748
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 3: Baber also mentions his theory Meryll's first victim was Elizabeth Short,

749
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 3: and the son perks up at the name Elizabeth. Showing

750
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 3: Baber his father's last sketch, a nude woman's torso under

751
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 3: the name Elizabeth, Baber discovers the word zodiac written underneath

752
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 3: dark shading in the sketch.

753
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 18: Looking at the sketch of a nude woman, you know

754
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 18: from the waves, stop that appears to have puncture wounds

755
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 18: to the torso area with smear blood and it has

756
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 18: Elizabeth in bold writing, the biggest, the biggest writing on

757
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 18: the entire sketches, says Elizabeth.

758
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 4: It was a smoking gun. We knew that this sketch

759
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 4: was a piece of evidence. It was physical evidence for

760
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 4: the first time since the package was mailed to the

761
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 4: local newspapers in la on January twenty fourth, nineteen forty seven.

762
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: Alex Baber joining us tonight, Alex, tell me what happened

763
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 2: when you meet with Merrill's son.

764
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 4: Oh, he was very open to me and my associate.

765
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 4: We started to present our findings on his father. The letters.

766
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 4: In particular, he recognized the handwriting. Immediately became slightly emotional, reached.

767
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 4: Out of all the people I've interviewed, it's the first

768
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 4: time ones ever initiated physical contact with me, reaching across

769
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 4: the table and grabbing my hands, saying this is going

770
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 4: to be okay, We're going to be all right. That

771
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 4: was a red flag to me. As I'm moving through

772
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 4: and I mentioned the black value connection we had uncovered

773
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 4: through the DA files. He said, was their name Elizabeth?

774
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 4: I said yeah, so he said, give me a moment.

775
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 4: So he starts flipping through his phone, finds his photograph

776
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 4: and instantly when I opened it up, he hand me

777
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 4: in his phone. I zoom in on it and the

778
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 4: first thing I see are puncture wounds to the torso

779
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 4: they're not rick aged, they're not there. For contrast, there

780
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 4: are literal puncture wounds to the center for torsa that

781
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 4: match up with the autopsy of photographs, and it appears

782
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 4: to be smeared blood over them. You know, we have

783
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 4: what looks like the top of the breast tissue removed

784
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 4: from the exposed breasts. We have the clear indication, which

785
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 4: we're getting analy and Fritzic Experts is going to give

786
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 4: us opinion on it, but we know it has the

787
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 4: word Zodiac hidden underneath the shading. Why would this guy

788
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 4: who's just got diagnosed with States four cancer, he has

789
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 4: less than a year to live, he creates a sketch

790
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,479
Speaker 4: with the big name Elizabeth of a nude woman. There's

791
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 4: no navel indicated in the sketch. It could be below that,

792
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 4: but if you look at the torso length, it stands

793
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 4: out to me that she's lying or sitting in something

794
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 4: because there's dark shading in between her torsta and her

795
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 4: arms and just outside of both of her arms, as

796
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 4: if she's laying in a tub. Her hair appears wet,

797
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 4: her eyes look like her dimmed out and zoom in

798
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 4: on them. And then we have these pieces of guilty

799
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 4: evidence that are within the sketch that's not public domain.

800
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 4: That's not something that somebody would know unless either perpetrator

801
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 4: or be there represent when her body was discovered.

802
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: Straight out to Sydney Sumner joining US Crime Stories investigative

803
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 2: reporter Sydney. There are many many theories out there about

804
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: who is really Zodiac right.

805
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 14: Absolutely, there have been a number of people who have

806
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 14: come forward claiming they believe their father, their grandfather was

807
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 14: the Zodiac killer, and the same goes for Elizabeth Short.

808
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, here is one theory that

809
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 2: George Hodell is the killer.

810
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 19: I believe I know who killed the Black Dohlia. His

811
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 19: name was George Hodell. But here's the kicker. I also

812
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 19: think he was the Zodiac killer. After George's death, his

813
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 19: son Steve found pictures that resembled the black Dahlia Elizabeth Short.

814
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 19: And since he found that picture, he's been able to

815
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 19: catalog enough evidence to make a book. And here's just

816
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,479
Speaker 19: a few parts of that evidence. There were six prime

817
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 19: suspects at the time of Elizabeth Schwartz murder. Turns out

818
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 19: George Hodell was one of them. They even bubged his

819
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:44,919
Speaker 19: home for a little bit. And I'm going to read

820
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 19: you one of the transcripts supposing I did kill the

821
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 19: Black Dahlia. They can't prove it. They can't talk to

822
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 19: my secretary anymore because she's dead.

823
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 2: Okay too, Alex Baber, what about Hodell as the black Dahlia? Chill?

824
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: Does it work for you?

825
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 4: We already discrewed him, as did lap Back. In early

826
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 4: two thousands, they investigated Steve Whodell's findings and Mitchie Roberts

827
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 4: could probably tell you more about this, but they actually

828
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 4: did bump his claims. There's no connection. There was never

829
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 4: any incident, relationship or known relationship between Elizabeth Short and

830
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 4: doctor George Hillhodell at all, as far as the recording

831
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 4: of the house goes. If you're going to be intimate

832
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 4: with somebody, as his son claims in nine or thirteen books,

833
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 4: what would make sense to me is when he's talking

834
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 4: about it in the privacy of his residence, he's going

835
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 4: to refer to my name, whether it be Elizabeth Bettie's

836
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 4: gonna refer to as the black Dahia in the privacy

837
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 4: of his residence. It makes no.

838
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 2: Sense, Alex. That jumped out at me as well. Why

839
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 2: would he refer to her as the black Dahlia? Okay,

840
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 2: I agree with you on that. You know, Cheryl McCollum,

841
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 2: the fact that Hodell was considered a suspect at the

842
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 2: time is good police work. You run down every potential

843
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 2: suspect so you're ready when you finally accuse someone publicly,

844
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 2: because everybody you researched or investigated can then become a

845
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 2: defense for the defense. Hey, didn't you think it was Hodel?

846
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 2: It's the police duty to run down every single potential suspect, right.

847
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 11: It is absolutely their duty. Means you they even looked

848
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 11: at Bugsy Siegels for Elizabeth murder. I mean, they had

849
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 11: everybody on their list. A lot of these folks take

850
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 11: for them, whether they should have or not, but they did. Again,

851
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 11: what we're looking at here is zero physical evidence. It

852
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 11: would be great if we could pull a fingerprint off

853
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 11: one of the letters, if we could get DNA off

854
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 11: an envelope that he lit for a stamp. We don't

855
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 11: have that here. What we have is a great theory,

856
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 11: but we had it with Arthur Lee Allen. I mean

857
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 11: we've had it with other people that looked good for

858
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 11: some of these murders.

859
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 2: The fact that Margolis was actually dating Elizabeth Short and

860
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 2: it is now potentially the Zodiac I find that connection

861
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 2: right there very very probative. But there are other theories. Listen,

862
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 2: my grandpa is the Zodiac Killer. Let's talk about it.

863
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 20: My grandpa was a Valeo police officer, Yes, the same

864
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 20: area where the Zodiac Killers killings took place. Darlene Farren

865
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 20: and her boyfriend Mike were driving around Valeo one night,

866
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 20: the night that my grandfather happened to be on duty,

867
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 20: driving an unmarked police car and wearing playing clothes. Mike,

868
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 20: who ended up surviving the shooting, said that they were

869
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 20: being followed around by this car all night in Valeo

870
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 20: before they pulled into Blue Rock Springs. They said when

871
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 20: they parked, the car pulled in, a man hopped out

872
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 20: of the car and Darlene, the girl who passed away, said,

873
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 20: oh my god, that's Richard. He's gonna kill us both.

874
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 4: She had a painting party.

875
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 20: At her house a few weeks before her murder, and

876
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 20: it was said that my grandfather, Richard Hoffmann stowed up uninvited,

877
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 20: and she told her circle of friends as she is

878
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 20: scared to death the film.

879
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 2: That's from at j foury three to zero on TikTok

880
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 2: And there's even speculation that Ted Cruz is the killer.

881
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 21: Could Ted Cruz actually be the Zodiac Killer? So On

882
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 21: March fourteenth, twenty thirteen, multiple users tweeted hashtag seapack alert

883
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 21: Ted Cruz is speaking. His speech is titled this is

884
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 21: the Zodiac Speaking. Ted Cruise himself referenced the meme by

885
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 21: tweeting out an infamous picture of a coded letter written

886
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,840
Speaker 21: by the Zodiac Killer He did something similar on October

887
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 21: thirty first, twenty eighteen, when he tweeted another Zodiac cipher

888
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 21: and included the caption happy Halloween. For most, this just

889
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 21: proved that Cruz was in on the joke, but it

890
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 21: may have added some legitimacy for others. Some people also

891
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 21: feel that there is somewhat of a resemblance between Cruse

892
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 21: and the police sketches of the Zodiac killer.

893
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 2: Okay, that's from at Buzzfeet Unsolved on TikTok and on

894
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 2: and on and on. I could play you conspiracy theories

895
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 2: from now till the end of time about who is Zodiac?

896
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 2: To you, Rachel Sharp, what do you find to be

897
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 2: the most compelling theory?

898
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 16: Yeah, I mean, as you point out, there's so many

899
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 16: there's been so many occasions where people have claimed to

900
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 16: have solved the Zodiac and the Black Dahlia cases. What

901
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 16: I do think differentiates the case here is in the

902
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 16: Black Dahlia case, you have someone who was in a

903
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 16: relationship with Elizabeth Short. He was also had that surgical experience.

904
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 16: He was in the medical Corps while he served overseas

905
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 16: in World War Two, and he was also training at

906
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 16: the time at the USC Medical school, so we had

907
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 16: both of those characteristics. He also was named as a suspect,

908
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 16: and that was by the LA authorities at the time,

909
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 16: and that was you know, one of the reasons they

910
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 16: gave for that was that he was the only boyfriend

911
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 16: that lived with Elizabeth Short, had that medical training and

912
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 16: was also the only one who had marine experience. Obviously,

913
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 16: we know that a police officer encountered the woman she

914
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 16: believed was Short the night before, who said that she

915
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 16: was afraid of a marine. So the evidence there is

916
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 16: quite compelling. And then couple that with the Zodiac and

917
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 16: the solving of the solution to the Z thirteen cipher,

918
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 16: which as we say, has been verified by one of

919
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 16: the top code breakers in the world. Then you know,

920
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 16: you put the cases together and it is certainly a

921
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 16: very compelling argument. You have the spayinet, you have the motel,

922
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,919
Speaker 16: you have the cipher. You have also a gap in

923
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 16: the Zodiac's correspondence. So there was a three year gap

924
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 16: in the Zodiac correspondence from nineteen seventy one to nineteen

925
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 16: seventy four. And what's curious is that that timing actually

926
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 16: corresponded with a three year probation period where Marvin Morgolis

927
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 16: had been convicted of fraud and was under probation for

928
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 16: that time. So while it does need further investigation, there

929
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 16: is a lot of compelling evidence there, and I think

930
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 16: what sets us apart is that it's attracted experts. You know,

931
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 16: this isn't sort of theories. This has got the top

932
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 16: code breaker who has said the solution is correct to

933
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 16: the Z thirteen cipher. You have some former LAPD homicide

934
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 16: detectives who have actually gone on the record and you know,

935
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 16: said they believe this is solved. And we also know

936
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 16: that police are activitally reviewings as well. So while there

937
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 16: has been a lot of theories, a lot of speculation,

938
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 16: a lot of people claiming to have solved these cases,

939
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 16: we at least know that police are taking this seriously.

940
00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 2: Sidney Sumner, what about it?

941
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 22: I have to agree it's all very compelling when you

942
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 22: look at all of this circumstantial evidence put together, and

943
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 22: what Baber's theory really focuses on is that sketch that

944
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,800
Speaker 22: is a physical piece of evidence, and while it could

945
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 22: mean many things.

946
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 23: It just seems like an incredible coincidence that on his deathbed,

947
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 23: Marvin Merrill, Marvin Margolis draws the sketch of Elizabeth matching

948
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 23: that upper torso that bisected body, and the word Zodiac

949
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 23: is just conveniently tucked in there. It really makes you

950
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 23: want to believe that this could be the solution.

951
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: Crime Stores with Nancy Grace.

952
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: Back to Alex Baber joining US, director of cole Case

953
00:57:56,040 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 2: Consultants of America. You've devoted less man hours to solving this.

954
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 2: So if you firmly believe that Meryll is Zodiac, not

955
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 2: just because of the cipher, but because of other evidents.

956
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 2: The connection of Meryl aka mar Golis to Elizabeth Short

957
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 2: is clear. They lived together, she was afraid of him

958
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 2: just shortly before her death, and the murder was so

959
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 2: intensely personal. Again, how do you why are you convinced

960
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 2: that Merrill is Zodiac? Because I think I've got him

961
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 2: on Short. But what about Zodiac?

962
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 4: Good question, Nancy. So here's what we got. We discovered

963
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 4: that this individual was living having two residents under two

964
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 4: names which were aliases. One was Marvin Merrill in the

965
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 4: Oshuside Carlsbad location and then in the North Bay in

966
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 4: the Santa's Hey. He's using Skip maryl Right at the

967
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 4: same time and his family. We spoke to couldn't account

968
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 4: for his whereabouts. One assumed that he was in the

969
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 4: Vista Ocean Side area. The other ones are like, we

970
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 4: could we don't know where our dad was, right, And

971
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 4: then we find out that his background that we can

972
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 4: connect directly to the area in the north while also

973
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 4: having these overlaps between the events that took place in

974
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 4: the crimes and his traveling or where he was at

975
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 4: at the time. We can go all the way back

976
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 4: to nineteen sixty two. So when he arrives in the

977
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 4: Ocean Side in February sixty two, a month and a

978
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 4: half later, a cab driver named Ray Davis's murder and

979
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 4: this was not from me, but if you searched the internet,

980
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 4: you'll see that there is other people who have linked

981
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,919
Speaker 4: him as being a possible Zodia accesspact back to sixty two.

982
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 4: As a cab driver, it mimics the Paul Stein attack

983
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 4: almost identical. It's called a law enforcement mocking them. There's

984
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 4: the murders committed, and then they make fun of law

985
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 4: enforcement not catching him, and then he threatens to take

986
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 4: out a bus. It's almost a mirror image of what

987
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 4: happened with Paul Stein. So Margolis moves into Oceanside. A

988
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,439
Speaker 4: month and a half later, this murder takes place right

989
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 4: and then the same thing happens somewhat seven years later.

990
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 4: And is that a coincidence? Every place that this guy goes,

991
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 4: every place that he lives, there's either a Zodiac crime committed,

992
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 4: there's a suspected Zodiac crime committed, or there's a Zodiac

993
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 4: letter medal across the nation literally even in Atlanta. We'll

994
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 4: discuss that later in our podcast. But every time this

995
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 4: guy's goes somewhere, there's a connection. Either he's the most

996
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 4: unluckiest guy on the planet or he's the perpetrator.

997
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 2: When you say everywhere Margolis aka Merrill goes, there is

998
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 2: a Zodiac type killing.

999
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 4: Where we have the ones in the ocean Side area,

1000
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 4: we have the ones in the Bay area. We have

1001
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 4: the letters that connect not just from those two locations

1002
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 4: or communications, but we also have those that are connected

1003
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 4: into Atlanta in the early eighties. I mean there's everywhere

1004
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 4: literally and where this guy goes and there's a Zodiac

1005
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 4: letter mail or cry he's there, he has connections to you.

1006
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 2: Know what, that's very very primitive. It proves something to

1007
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 2: me what was holding me up was the difference in

1008
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 2: the mos and the time lapse between Elizabeth schwartz murder

1009
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 2: and the commencement of the Zodiac killings. But if you

1010
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 2: can kneel him Merrill and Zodiac, I don't think it's

1011
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 2: a leap for short because of their relationship. It's very obvious.

1012
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:38,680
Speaker 2: As Nima Ramani said earlier, you look to who is

1013
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 2: dating or living with the person at that time, and

1014
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 2: it was Merrill. What do you make of all these

1015
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 2: other theories? I played just a few of them.

1016
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 4: Well, there's multiple theories out there. Everybody's accused their brother

1017
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 4: or sister, or father, or the augthor mail man, but

1018
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 4: none of them have substantiated evidence or physical evidence as

1019
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 4: we do the sketch, and you know, we have these

1020
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 4: other things. There's over one hundred and thirty two pieces

1021
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 4: of circumstantial evidence plus physical evidence that we've gathered. That's overwhelming.

1022
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 4: We spoke to one of the active das in Los

1023
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 4: Angeles who said he's convicted people on lesser evidence.

1024
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 2: Alex, let me ask you, you spent so much time

1025
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 2: on this cipher. What in the cipher convinces you it's

1026
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 2: a Zodiac cipher? What in the cipher convinces you Zodiac

1027
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 2: is Merril.

1028
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 4: Well the fact that the same methodology that was identified

1029
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 4: in the Simber twenty twenty and by Dave Oarren checking

1030
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 4: his team, which is a double layer transposition as well

1031
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 4: as a substitution. What I did is I took that

1032
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 4: similar ihypothesis and applied it on a scale down level.

1033
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 4: So I created a grid as this other ciphers are

1034
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 4: created at two by seven, adding what's called a null

1035
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 4: at that point identified the permittation used in a ANDI,

1036
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 4: giving me five thousand and forty possible names based on

1037
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 4: that methodology, eliminate all the other suspects that were within

1038
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 4: that permittation sequence. And then we submitted it to Ed

1039
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 4: Giorgio who had his findings peer reviewed, and they discovered

1040
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 4: that the keyword to that cipher is the name Elizabeth,

1041
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 4: meaning when you apply the keyword in the creation of

1042
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 4: the permutation, her name is the keyword to solving that cipher.

1043
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 4: That's beyond coincidence.

1044
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 2: Nancy, Wow. So you would say that based on what

1045
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 2: you learned in the cipher, the use of Elizabeth as

1046
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 2: the keyword identifies Meryll.

1047
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 4: It's just another piece an there's you log on the

1048
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 4: fire Nancy, we have so many pieces connecting this guy,

1049
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 4: and what's the odds that his name? Now, let me

1050
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 4: look at this little bit of perspective for the viewers.

1051
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,240
Speaker 4: So you have to find a suspect in another crime

1052
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 4: if you're trying to stage this, that would be Marvin Margolist,

1053
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 4: and you have to hope he has an alias that

1054
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 4: matches the letter frequency or character account within the Z thirteen,

1055
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 4: which is Marvin Merrill. Then you have to have the

1056
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 4: luck that it's a double methodology like the Z three

1057
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 4: forty was that was discovered December twenty twenty. And then

1058
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 4: you have to apply the permutation key, which happens to

1059
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 4: be Elizabeth. There's better odds of buying a lottery ticket,

1060
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 4: hit and hitting the power ball than there is at

1061
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 4: all of these being coincidences.

1062
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:18,040
Speaker 2: So, Alex, are you telling me that the permutation keyword

1063
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 2: to cracking the cipher is Elizabeth and by using that

1064
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:28,800
Speaker 2: permutation keyword, the name Meyrill came out of the cipher?

1065
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:31,760
Speaker 4: Your correct, Nancy?

1066
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 2: Wow? Okay, you know what in my world? Two is

1067
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:41,520
Speaker 2: a coincidence. Three is a pattern. You have developed so

1068
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 2: much evidence to point to Meryl being Zodiac and Merrill

1069
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 2: having stalked Elizabeth Short? Will we ever know the truth.

1070
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about this case,

1071
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 2: please go to tips dot FBI gov. There are still

1072
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 2: family members who want justice. Tonight we remember an American hero,

1073
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 2: Officer Andy Chan of Philly, p d killed in the

1074
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 2: line of duty, leaving behind a wife turned widow and

1075
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:24,959
Speaker 2: three children without a father. American hero Officer Andy Chan.

1076
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 2: Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend.