WEBVTT - It’s Not the Guns with Dr. John Lott 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.280 After public mass shootings, there's always these calls to do something, 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:08.600 do something, do something, But what if what we do 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:11.520 doesn't stop the next shooting. I want to have on 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:15.040 this week's episode, just a data driven conversation. We're going 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:17.160 to remove the emotion. We're just going to get into 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:20.239 the numbers, get into the facts. And I've got none 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.520 other than Dr John Lott for this episode. He runs 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.759 and started the Crime Prevention Research Center before he got 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.680 into a lot of the gun research he's He started 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:31.960 his academic journey at u C l A, where he 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:34.400 got his bachelor's degree in economics. He went on to 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:37.479 get both his master's and PhD from there as well. 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:40.800 He worked as an economist at the University of Maryland, 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.000 Yale Law School, the University of Stanford, Texas, A and 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.239 M We're in business school, all these different places, right, 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.720 So he starts at a place really from digging in 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.360 the numbers. That that's what he loves, that's what he does. 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:53.840 He had also worked as a chief economist at the 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:57.040 United States Sentencing Commission. So we're going to get into 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.520 all of this stuff with him. What would actually prevent 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.960 the next public mass shooting? What's the profile of a 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.319 mass shooter. Why did these keep happening? And are they 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.240 happening more since Columbine or is the media just covering 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:12.600 the more. So I've got a lot of questions for 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:14.920 Dr John Lott. We're also going to get into, you know, 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:19.560 the latest proposal from Congress, this bipartisan proposal, things like 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.839 red flag laws, you know, do they allow for due process? 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:25.680 So I've got a whole host of questions for him, 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.360 Dr John Lott. He knows the data, he knows the research, 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:31.000 and he's going to give it to us on this show. 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.319 Dr Lot, I'm really looking forward to having this conversation 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.360 because after mass shootings, there's always these calls we have 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.600 to do something, we have to do something, But what 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.880 if that do something doesn't stop the next mass shooting? 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:56.000 You know? So I really want to just have a 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.640 data driven conversation, not an emotional conversation, but a data 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:01.920 driven one with you. And I know that's what you 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.560 do at the Crime Prevention Center. So I appreciate you 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.440 joining the show. Sure, yeah, no, thanks for having me on. 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:16.440 Uh right, Look, everybody wants to go and stop these attacks. Uh, 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:18.960 but what you want to do is do something that's 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:23.160 relevant for stopping them, and uh, you know you have 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:27.880 this push for things like universal background checks. Um, it's 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:32.240 been kind of the game go to type of legislation 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.280 that they wanted. But yet there's not one mass public 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:39.080 shooting this century that would have been stopped if such 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.200 a law had been in effect, these background checks on 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.560 the private transfers of guns, And yet they keep bringing 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.480 it up, and it makes one begin to think that 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:52.960 they have reasons other than trying to stop these types 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.400 of attacks that are motivating it. Why is the focus 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.920 always Okay, well, the answer is getting rid of guns, 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.960 are limiting the ability to own them to some degree. 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:05.840 I think they want to get rid of guns. If 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.919 they wanted to pass something like a universal background check, 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.960 these background checks on private transfers of guns. I've been 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:16.000 telling them for over twenty years how they could easily 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:20.200 get something like that passed if they made a few 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.000 reasonable changes. I mean, they keep on saying, we just 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.040 want reasonable gun control. Well, I can give you a 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:30.680 few extremely reasonable fixes to the bills that they have 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.360 that would make it easy to get it passed. But 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.320 they refused to do that, and it kind of convinces 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.600 me over time that they really don't care about things 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.360 like universal background checks per se. They care about making 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:46.920 it costly for people to be able to go and 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.000 get guns. You know, we're talking about, obviously the desire 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.120 to put more laws on the books, but how many 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.720 gun laws do we currently have on the books and 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.560 to what extent are we following them. We have a 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.000 lot of laws that I guess it depends how you 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.760 want to count them. Uh. Uh. There's a guy named 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.760 Alan Corwin who goes around and kind of counts the 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:12.800 number of words in different uh gun laws, either federally 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.680 or in the state. He doesn't do it for all 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:19.200 the states, but I mean for states like California may 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:23.080 literally have hundreds of thousands of words, uh dealing with 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.320 the gun control laws just at the state level. And 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.520 you probably have thousands of gun control laws if you 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:36.920 count local ordinances and restrictions people have locally in counties 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.680 or cities on guns. Um. But nobody has really ever 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:45.200 gone through and systematically counted all the laws uh in 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.680 any way. It's just I mean, we have a lot, 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:53.680 um and you know, my concern is that a lot 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:56.400 of the problems that we have are due to existing 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.440 gun control laws like these gun free zones that are there, 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.120 and rather than going back and undoing the existing laws, 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.360 the push seems to be, well, we need yet even 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.880 more laws that will fix the problem, and they cause 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.840 more problems, so you know, just kind of continue in 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:18.640 the background check stuff. As an example, UM, if my 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:23.719 research convinces me of anything, it's the two groups of 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.040 people benefit the most from having guns. One of them 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:29.080 are poor blacks who live in high crime urban areas. 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:33.200 The very people who are most likely victims of violent crime, 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.400 according to my research, are the ones who benefit the 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:41.880 most from having guns for protection. Police are extremely important, 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.080 but if you talk to the police or look at 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:48.200 surveys of police, police themselves understand they virtually always arrive 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:52.320 on the crime seen after the crimes committed, and so 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.120 what's the safest course of action for them to take? 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.880 And it turns out having a gun is by far 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.800 the safest course of action. So we have the errors 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.240 in the background check system I was talking about, but 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.520 we also have the costs. If you live in Washington, 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.599 d c. Lisa, Let's say you and I lived in 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.240 d c UH and I'm going to give you a gun. 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:15.560 It costs a hundred twenty five dollars to go through 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:17.680 a background check. Now, just to give you an idea 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.279 of how these laws are purposely set up to make 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:24.599 it difficult for people to get guns. Let's say now 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.880 I'm going to give you four guns. So it's just 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:31.200 John giving Lisa four guns, one person giving one other 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.360 person the guns. You think it's just one background check 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:38.400 because the same person is getting all the guns from 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:42.760 one person. But no, they require a separate background check 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:44.320 on each gun. So if I'm going to give you 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.440 four guns, that is going to cost five hundred dollars 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:54.120 rather than a I mean, there's like no logical reason 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:57.240 to me why you should have to require a separate 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:01.560 background check on each gun, right than just on the 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:06.040 one person who's getting the guns. Uh. But you know, 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:08.760 it's just an example where they kind of purposely go 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.559 out of their way to make it costly. Now, look, 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.920 if you believe that is going to control I advocate 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:20.000 say that the background checks are important for stopping crime, 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.240 and I don't believe that. But if you do believe it, 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:27.600 then presumably you want to encourage people to go out 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:29.720 of their way, not to just to make it for 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:31.600 me to give you the guns, but to go and 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:36.480 find a license dealer and make the transfer through them. Um, 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.320 you want to encourage people to do that, Well, how 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:43.600 is making people pay a tax essentially encouraging them to 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.640 go and obey the law? Or you know, if you 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.080 if you believe it reduces crime, it reduces crime for everybody, 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.680 not just the law abiding individual who's going out of 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.840 their way to go and do the background check. Well, 0:07:56.240 --> 0:08:00.720 how how is making them, the person who's obeying the 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:06.720 law bear the entire freight of paying for this accomplishing 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:10.040 that if if as an economist, I would say, if 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.960 everybody benefits, everybody should pay, you know, pay for this 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:16.360 out of general revenue. But they will fight you. They 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:20.080 will fight you against this. Okay, quick commercial break back 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:27.200 with Dr John Lott on the other side. The reason 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.160 I had asked you about the gun laws is, you know, 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.760 we we look at prosecutors in major cities across America 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.560 that aren't prosecuting criminals right now. So it's just hard 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.160 to imagine that increasing the amount of laws in the 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.800 books will do anything when we already you know, have 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:44.559 essentially lawless cities across America. But I want to get 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.160 into some of the basics of mass shootings with you 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:51.040 and just go through some basic questions on this. You know, 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.040 the first is how are mass shootings to find? Well, 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.120 you have two definitions. You have mass shootings and you 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:02.120 have mass public shootings. Mass shooting are any shooting that 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:06.760 occurs where you have four more people killed other than 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:11.280 the murderer. Usually now there's a place called the and 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:15.120 that's been the traditional FBI definition. Uh. Now you have 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:18.040 a place called the Gun Violence Archive, which is a 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:22.800 gun control group, which is what the media sites all 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.360 the time, and they have their own definition. They have 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:30.680 three or more people shot, either wounded and or killed. Um, 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.760 and that's the definitely, that's the number that you hear 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.280 when they say, well, we've had two hundred mass shootings 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:43.480 or something this year. Um. Mass public shootings is a 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:47.120 narrower definition. And what that tries to get at are 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.760 these attacks that occur at a mall or school or 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.280 a movie theater or something where the point of the 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:56.760 attack is simply to kill as many people as possible. 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:02.160 And um, so as public is four more people killed 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:06.280 in a public place, not involving some other type of 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.920 crime or like a gang fight over drug turf. You 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:14.080 know what most people miss is that the mass shooting 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:19.559 about eighties seven percent of those are gang fights over 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:24.200 drug turf, and the vast majority of the rest are 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.960 things like a robbery which resulted in the death of 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.480 multiple people and uh or in the case of the 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.800 gun violence archived just woundings or whatever. And uh. Now 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:40.520 are gang fights over drug turf important? Yeah, sure, any 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:44.800 time people get killed is important, But the causes and 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:50.880 solutions of gang fights over drug turf are very different 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.959 than the causes and solutions to things like stopping these 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:59.640 mass public shootings. Um. You know, getting rid of gun 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:03.320 freeze owns I think is important for stopping these mass 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:07.320 public shootings. But you know, the notion that you're going 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:12.240 to easily get rid of the guns that drug gangs have, UM, 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:17.160 isn't really serious. Well and if you look at you know, 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:21.160 these public mass shootings. Have we seen more of them 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.000 increase since colibine or is it just or coverage of 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:28.160 them has increased? The rate of mass public shootings has 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:30.880 been fairly constant. You had a little bit of an 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:38.000 increase around twenty and it's gone back down again. Um. 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:43.199 And uh, you had some increase around the same time, 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:47.600 and the number of people killed but you know, one 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.920 thing I think needs to be clear. Over the last 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.720 couple of weeks or a few weeks, there's been kind 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.840 of this theme in the media that the United States 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.000 is unique in terms of mass public shooting. So that's 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:05.360 that's simply false. Um. You have a number of countries 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.720 in Europe that have higher per capita rates of mass 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.960 public shootings in the United States hip per capita rates 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:16.280 of public school shootings than the United States. Um. The 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:20.920 problem that people make in these comparisons is that usually 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:25.280 the media and gun control people and Democrats will just 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.880 talk about the number of attacks. But you have to 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.600 take into account is that the United States has over 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:36.960 three people. Um. There are a lot of countries in 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:40.760 Europe that have five million people or six or eight 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:45.480 million people. Germany, which is the most populous country in Europe, 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.760 has has eighty million people. Uh, So that's less than 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:53.360 the fourth of the population in the United States. If 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.480 you look at mass public school shootings since two thousand, 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.600 there have been nine in the United States. Uh, there 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.600 have been three in Germany. Uh. The most deadly one 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.040 had eighteen people killed, The second most deadly one had 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.640 fifteen people killed. Then you have another one where there's 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:19.199 four killed. Uh, you multiply three times four, you get twelve. Uh. 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.240 You know, you have a country like Finland, which has 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:26.000 had a couple uh school shootings. Um, they have five 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:31.280 million people in the country. They have one the population 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.480 that the United States has. You know, it's kind of 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:38.960 like people if you with the news media compared the 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:43.400 number of murders in Rhode Island or let's say, Wyoming 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:48.160 with Texas or California, presumably not. You know, if you're 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.000 going to compare it across states, people know you'd put 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.400 it in per capita terms, but for some reason they 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.240 refuse to do that when when they're talking about these 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.720 mass public shootings, probably because it's about the narrative as 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:03.800 opposed to getting the truth out to the public. You know, 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:07.480 I wanted to ask you, is the contigient or the 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.800 copy of cat affects real with some of these when 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.480 you look at the public mass shootings like these school shooters, 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.000 or is that a real thing? There's no doubt. I 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.280 mean you just have to read their diaries and manifestos 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:24.560 and other things that they leave time after time after time. 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.720 The murderers will say, if I can only kill more 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.440 people than such and such killed, I can get more 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.520 media attention. So you look at the Sandy Hook killer. 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.520 He had He had been planning his attack for over 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:42.360 two and a half years. According to police, he had 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.600 put together the equivalent of a doctoral dissertation where he 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:50.720 had looked at mass public shootings over the previous forty years. UM. 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:55.000 He had apparently graft out the relationship between the number 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.520 of people killed in attacks and the amount of media 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.640 coverage that they had gotten. In His goal, according to 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.000 one police report, was to go and kill more people 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:08.440 than the Norway killer had killed. He he the Norway killer, 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.320 if you ignore the bombing deaths, had shot to death 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.920 sixty seven people. That's more than any mass public shooting 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.360 in the United States. And uh, and he was hoping 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.320 that if he could kill more people than the Norway 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.480 killer had killed, that he could get even more worldwide 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:31.360 media attention. UM. You know, at some point along the line, 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:33.160 I mean, we've always had people who want to go 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.480 and commit suicide, but at some point along the line, 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:41.480 several decades ago, UM, there were a group of people 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.840 that knew they wanted to go and commit suicide, but 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.320 realized that they could commit suicide in a way that 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.120 people at least would know that they were here. And Uh, 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:53.920 they talked about, well, my name will be in the 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:58.800 history books. People will know that I was important, Um, 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.920 that I mannered so many When you read the diaries 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:07.880 or statements from these other murders, Um, they just don't 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.400 feel appreciated. Uh. You know, women won't go out on 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.720 dates with them or something, or they you know, people 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:18.480 won't be their friends or whatever. Um. And you know, 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.920 you read the diaries and stuff, and you realize, well, 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.480 there's a pretty good reason why people your friend, you're 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:28.200 a really strange guy. But the but they want to 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:30.440 commit suicide in a way that people will know that 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.360 they were here. And so they discovered that they could 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:39.680 get massive news attention by killing lots of people, and 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:43.480 so they planned these things. Six months is a short 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.240 amount of time for them to plan it. Uh. Many 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:50.680 of them plan for a year or two years or more. Um. 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:56.040 And they pick and they go through detailed planning. Uh. 0:16:56.200 --> 0:17:00.240 They case places beforehand. You have, like you or a 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:05.520 Batman movie theater shooter, he had cased multiple movie theaters 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.679 before he went in there. He picked the one. There 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:11.399 were seven movie theaters that were showing the premiere of 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.760 the Batman movie within a twenty minute drive of his apartment. 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:20.560 He picked the one movie theater that banned permanent concealed handguns. 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:22.840 Um you see the same thing over and over again, 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:28.119 the the Omaha, Nebraska mall shooting, or the uh St 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.840 Louis mall shooting, or the Salt Lake City mall shooting, 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:37.800 or the um uh the Portland, Oregon mall shooting. You 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:42.479 may have, you know, five six malls in an area, 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:47.040 and only one or two will have signs posting banning 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.400 permier concealed handguns. And so where do they go? Well, 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.240 and that's also yeah, the one that doesn't have or 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.720 the gun free zones. And that makes sense because you know, 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.119 if you just look at it from a common sense standpoint, 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.359 if you're looking to inflict mass harm, you go to 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.440 the easiest place to do it. So I feel like 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:03.840 that's you know, common sense. Yet a lot of lawmakers 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:07.280 can't seem to grasp that concept. But you talked about 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.919 some of the background of some of these public mass shooters. 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:15.480 What's the typical profile for what is there a typical profile? 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:20.520 There's no typical age. You know, people are focusing right 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.920 now because of a couple of recent attacks on people 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.160 who are under twenty one. But if you look at 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.960 all the mass public shooters over the last twenty five years, 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:37.440 the most common age rage is five. The next most 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:41.280 common age rage is thirty six to forty, the next 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:46.520 one is umtet and then only at that point do 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:51.919 you get to sixteen to twenty. Um. Uh. You know 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.119 you have mass public shooters who are in their sixties 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:59.960 out there. Uh. As far as other parts of the profile, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.600 they're overwhelmingly male. Uh. You know, like nineties seven percent 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:09.000 or so are male. Um Uh. There are people that 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:15.119 have no real political or religious views. Um. You know, 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:19.199 we keep on hearing white supremacists. You have if you 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:26.280 look at people who are anything from white supremacists, neo Nazis, 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:31.800 or just people who are upset about illegal immigration. Uh, 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.160 you get about nine percent of the mass public shooters. 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:42.280 Um Uh. Muslims who are doing it because of radical 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.159 views on Muslim things are about nine percent of the 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:50.719 population to their make up about half of one percent 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.520 of the population, but they make up nine percent of 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:58.720 the mass public shooters. Um. But overwhelmingly you just have 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.959 people who to commit suicide and who want to do 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:06.679 it in a way that's going to get them attention. Uh. 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:11.679 That's that's the overwhelming common view that's there. Uh. The 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:15.120 other thing is, over the last twenty five years, over 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:19.200 half the mass public shooters were actually seeing mental health 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:23.560 care professionals prior to their attack. And yet and not 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:28.159 one single case where mental health care professionals able to 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:33.000 identify those individuals as a danger to themselves or others. Why. Well, 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:37.560 there's a whole academic literature on that. Uh. And and 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:42.480 the explanation is usually, well, um, people with mental health 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:46.920 problems are usually on average, less violent than the general population. 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:51.000 They're actually more likely to be victims of violence than 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:55.879 the general population themselves. Um. And it's just such a 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:59.240 rare thing, they'll say. They'll say, look, Uh, they're about 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.240 two and a half in schizophrenics in the United States 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:04.800 in any given year. And yet if you look over 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.399 the last twenty five years, there's really only one clear 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:12.880 case of a schizophrenic uh committing a mass public shooting 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.479 and uh one other one. Whether is at least an 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:20.159 argument to be made that he may have been Um. 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.720 But uh, you know, if I were to say, okay, 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.240 of these two point five million people, pick the thousand 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:32.520 most likely ones to go and do it. Even if 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.359 you get a guy who's in the thousand that you pick, 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:40.400 you'll still be wrong nine out of the thousand times. 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:43.600 And that's usually the type of argument that you see 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:48.560 being provided by mental health care professionals. Um, you know, 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.560 here's the thing. I have no problem with people spending 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:57.480 more money on mental health care for people. Uh, it's 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.520 just that, you know, it's pretty hard to believe that 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:04.280 you're going to catch most of these people beforehand, or 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.680 even a small fraction of them. And so to me, 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:09.919 the question is, what's your backup plan? What do you 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:14.880 do if you can't identify these individuals beforehand? And that's 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:19.359 where allowing people to protect themselves comes in. If you can't, 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.800 if you can't, if you really have very little hope 0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:26.639 of identifying these individuals beforehand, what what do you do 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:30.199 if you can't catch them? Quick break more data on 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:36.040 public mass shootings. I guess you know. My concern is 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:39.359 when we start getting into some of the mental health conversations, 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:42.600 like with the Senate proposal that they just put out, 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:45.640 including you know, funding and encouraging of things like red 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:47.920 flag laws. I mean, we just got through a time 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:50.000 period with COVID where you know, I didn't get the 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:55.520 vaccine right, and like Democrats wanted to find me, wanted 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:59.400 to confine me to my home, wanted to potentially imprison 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:03.919 me just for questioning vaccine efficacy, wanted to put me 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:07.000 in a designated facility, and if I had kids, would 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:09.280 want to take away my kids for me simply because 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:12.000 I don't share the same opinion as they did on 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.720 the vaccine. So the concern for me when you look 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:17.240 at red flag laws or you give increased authority to 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:21.920 mental health officials to flag people, is could they flag 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:26.600 me simply because I hold different opinions than they do. Well, 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:32.119 I suppose anything as possible. Look, as far as I'm concerned, 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:35.439 you already have a better law on the books for 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:38.959 dealing with this than red flag laws. Uh. They go 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:42.840 by different names in different states. Uh. Oh, states to 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:47.320 call them Baker Act or in California it's called where 0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:52.919 if somebody's concerned about the behavior of somebody, either that 0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:56.720 they believe that they're danger to themselves or somebody else. Uh, 0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:59.640 they can go and contact the police. The police will 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:02.320 come in and evaluate if they have what's called a 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:06.840 reasonable suspicion about the person. Uh, then they'll take them 0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:09.640 to a mental health care professional who will evaluate them. 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:13.800 Either one or two will evaluate them, and then if 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:17.320 there's additional concerns at that point, there can be an 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:21.040 immediate hearing. Um. If you can't afford a lawyer, one 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:24.720 is provided for you, and a judge at that point 0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:28.720 has a broad range of options. He can say, look, 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:32.840 I'm concerned, Uh, I want you to go and see 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:36.879 a mental health expert. Um, and then we'll have you 0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:38.720 come back in in a couple of weeks and we'll 0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:43.080 evaluate how your treatment's going. At that point. Um, they 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:46.800 could in theory, take away somebody's guns. They could uh 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:52.679 involuntarily commit you in the most extreme cases. Um. What 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:56.640 red flat laws do is they sensely strip out all 0:24:56.680 --> 0:25:01.800 those protections that are there. Um. Red flag laws are 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:08.399 virtually always used regarding concerns about suicide. And Uh. What 0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:13.000 happens is is that somebody will make a complaint. The 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:16.240