1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from house 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: Tray Pybe Wilson and I'm Holly frying Back. In about 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: February of last year, we tackled six topics in one episode, 5 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: and they were all things that people had asked us 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: to talk about, but for one reason or another, we 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: couldn't really make a whole standalone episode out of each 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: of them. People seem to really like that one. We 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: called it six Impossible Episodes. So about six months later 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: we did six more impossible episodes, which were similarly things 11 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: people had asked us to talk about that we couldn't 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: really do a whole show on. And both of those times, 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: the biggest culprit was just a lack of information. Either 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: there's not a lot actually known about what was being requested, 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,319 Speaker 1: or not a lot of information available to us, or 16 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: in some cases just not quite enough to make a 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: whole thirty minute story out of. Uh So, people seem 18 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: to like that one too, And if we follow that 19 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: basic six months or so pattern, we're basically a little 20 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: bit overdue for another six impossible episodes. So we're doing 21 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: Wednesday and today's has a little bit of a different theme. 22 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: These are all subjects people have asked us to talk about, 23 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: and they are impossible, not just for an overall lack 24 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: of information, although that is sometimes true, but also because 25 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: the events and the people themselves, or the reason that 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: has people have asked us to talk about it I 27 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: might not ever have actually happened. So this is like 28 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: possible apocrypha. We're using the more casual meaning of apocrypha, 29 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: they're not the religious meaning of apocrypha. Yeah, in some 30 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: of these cases, there's lots of information, but none of 31 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: it is corroborated, right, And in some cases we are 32 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: going to talk about one thing that actually really did 33 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: for sure happen, but the reason that people asked us 34 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: to talk about it did not happen. First up, we're 35 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: going to talk about the Battle of Curancbes. We don't 36 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: know if we are accurate on that pronunciation, but that 37 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: is uh the way it was heard in research. So 38 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 1: this shows up on a lot of lists of weird 39 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: military history or most absurd battles ever. Thought shows up 40 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: in books about military blenders, you know, things like that, 41 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: And it's the kind of story people pull out to 42 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: try to illustrate purported military incompetence. Yeah, if somebody wants 43 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: to basically make the military the butt of a joke. 44 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: This is one of the stories that people will trot out, 45 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: and the basic gist of it is that in Austria 46 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: and Russia were both at war with the Ottoman Empire 47 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: and that fall. According to the story, the Austrian army 48 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: fell victim to an enormous friendly fire incident in which 49 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: ten thousand troops were killed, and that is what is 50 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: known as the Battle of curan SPEs. And here is 51 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: how the history of the eighteenth century and of the 52 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: nineteenth till the overthrow of the French Empire, with particular 53 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: reference to mental cultivation and progress, which was a piece 54 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: printed in eighteen forty five, describes this situation. According to 55 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: that text, the Austrian army was en route to take 56 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: up a new position near the town of Curancives. Then 57 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: quote on the march thither, the army was seized with 58 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: the most unaccountable panic. Believed themselves to be threatened by 59 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: the enemy, fell into disorder and mistook their own troops 60 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: from the Sclavonian frontier for enemies. The regiments fired upon 61 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 1: one another looked everywhere for an enemy, where in reality 62 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: there was none, and all attempts on the part of 63 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: the emperor in person to stop the firing and put 64 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: an end to the confusion were in vain. So the 65 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: emperor in question who appeared in person was Holy Roman 66 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: Emperor Joseph the Second, and according to this story, he 67 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: had gotten separated from the rest of the fighting force, 68 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: and he sort of came upon us melee with only 69 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: one attendant with him. Sometimes, in some retellings of this 70 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: story and the whole kerfuffle, he was knocked off of 71 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: his horse into a river. And in some versions of 72 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: the story, the cause of this chaos in which the 73 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: army attacked itself was a peddler or perhaps a camp 74 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: of roma selling schnops or some of their alcohol. Some 75 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: scouts on patrol bought and consumed a great deal of 76 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: the schnops, and then apparently on a lark, built some 77 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: fortifications for themselves, and they're imbibing, and when another group 78 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: of Austrian infantry approached, the inebriated scouts thought they were 79 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: the enemy. Shots were exchanged and things escalated from there. 80 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: The Ottoman Empire's army purportedly stumbled onto the scene of 81 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: the incident a couple of days later, and then they 82 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: found the bodies of about ten thousand men, and with 83 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: the bulk of this fighting force out of the way, 84 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire captured the city of Kranzes with basically 85 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: no resistance. There are just so many reasons to question 86 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: this incident. Number One, information about it is incredibly sparse, 87 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: which seems kind of unlikely if ten thousand people were 88 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: actually killed by their own side. Number Two, the written 89 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: record on it doesn't seem to start until more than 90 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: fifty years after this event supposedly took place, and this 91 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: is particularly weird considering that the emperor, who lived until 92 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: February was purportedly there. That source we read from earlier 93 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: points back to Austrian Military magazine of eighteen thirty one, 94 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: which is an incredibly vague citation. A lot of the 95 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: more modern retellings of the story, like lists on the 96 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: Internet that people pass around about military ridiculousness, really seemed 97 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: to be drawn from an old version of the current 98 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: Wikipedia article, So that would have been the version that 99 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: existed back when these lists and things were written, and 100 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: that version presents it as a completely factual event that 101 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: definitely happened. It also cites no sources. Uh ustrates one 102 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: of the difficulties of citing Wikipedia as a source. Yeah, 103 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons we do not ever use it. Uh. 104 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's it is a fun tool of the Internet, 105 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: but for us, it is not really verifiable enough source. Yes, 106 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: there are definitely good reasons, like they're great things about Wikipedia, 107 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: but we we do not use it as a as 108 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: a source for our shows. Yeah. And the most likely 109 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: scenario is that there was some kind of confusing and 110 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 1: chaotic friendly fire incident, but the odds are that it 111 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: was not nearly at the scale that is reported in 112 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: these various fantastical versions of the story. Yeah, and I 113 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: think probably something did happen, but not not the thing 114 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: that people like to use to prove a point that 115 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: maybe doesn't even need to be proven. It really is 116 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: one of the stories of people tried out to be 117 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 1: like and this is how the military waste your money, 118 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is not You're not supporting your 119 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: argument with this story that like number one, even if 120 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: it were true, was hundreds of years ago and not 121 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: in the nation whose military you're talking about anyway. Uh, 122 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: So the next possibly an apocryphal person is somebody a 123 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: lot of people have asked us to talk about, and 124 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: that is Tomoy goes In, And she's really one of 125 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: our most requested figures in Japanese history, and for good reason. 126 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: She's described as this twelfth century Japanese warrior woman. She 127 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: was described as beautiful and fearless and an expert with 128 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: both a sword and a bow, really highly skilled on 129 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: horseback and uh and and a little bit of a 130 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: departure from what might be expected of her gender. She 131 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: led men into battle. She's described in the epic The 132 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: Tale of Haka as quote prepared to confront both demons 133 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: and gods, a warrior equal to a thousand men. So 134 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: she's really got a lot in common with a lot 135 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: of other historical warrior women who we've talked about on 136 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: the show, like Budhica and Zenobia and the Amazons of Dahomey. 137 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: Goes In is a title meaning young lady or young one, 138 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: and there's enough historical information to suggest that there probably 139 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: was a young woman named to Moe involved in the 140 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: gen Pay War near the end of the Hayon period 141 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: in Japan, and we've talked about the hay On period 142 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: in our previous episode on say Shanagon, it was what 143 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: was happening in Japan at roughly the same time as 144 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: the medieval period in Europe. The gen Pay War was 145 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: between the Ta and the Minamoto clans, so the Minamoto 146 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: clans victory led it to establish the show Gunate that 147 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: would rule Japan from eleven ninety two to thirteen thirty three. 148 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: So Moee served in the army of General Kiso no Yoshinaka, 149 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: who was part of the Minamoto Clan, between eleven eighty 150 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: one and eleven eighty four. She seems to have been 151 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: present at at least three battles, getting the better of 152 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: seven mounts and warriors in the first one, commanding a 153 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: thousand warriors in the second, and beating a parterior a 154 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: particularly fearsome opponent known as owned A no Ha Chiro 155 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: moroshij in the third. A number of accounts suggests that 156 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: she survived the war because Kiso no Yoshinaka, outnumbered and 157 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: preparing to fight to the death or possibly mortally wounded himself, 158 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: ordered to Moi to go, perhaps because it would have 159 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: been considered shameful for him to die beside a woman. 160 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: Or perhaps because the outlook was so grim that her gender, 161 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: which apparently had not been an issue before, suddenly was Otherwise, 162 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: There really no very little about her. We don't know 163 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: who her parents were, Juan or where she was born, 164 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: whether she was married or had children, or what happened 165 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: to her after the war was over. Different accounts of 166 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: her life give wildly different information about all of this, 167 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: including different ages at the time of the war, as 168 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: well as different family connections, both as related to her 169 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: parents or siblings who she may or may not have 170 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: been married to. All all of that stuff is kind 171 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: of a fog of contradictions, and we don't even know 172 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 1: in what capacity she wound up on the battlefield in 173 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: the first place. There are some accounts that describe her 174 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: as a female warrior or a female general, but others 175 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: call her a servant, even a nun or someone's mistress, 176 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: among other descriptions. A lot of the sources that describe 177 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: all these details are from later on in Japanese history, 178 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: and many of them are definitely fictitious or at least 179 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: embellished versions of the truth, And a lot of the 180 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: sources that write about her draw directly from the tale 181 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: of the Tale of the Hicca, which really spent some 182 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: time circulating as an oral history before it was ever 183 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: written down. Some people draw comparisons between this epic and 184 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: like the Iliad and how the Iliad is. I mean, 185 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: the Iliad has probable historical roots that like, we don't 186 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: really read it as the history of what actually happened, 187 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: so there are some comparisons between that and this epic 188 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: or Tamoi goes In was mentioned for the first time. 189 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: Tamoi goes and also became a character and many, many, 190 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: many stories both inside and out of Japan that have 191 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: gone on in all of the centuries since since she 192 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: was first mentioned in this poem. And Kristen and Caroline 193 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: from our sister podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You actually 194 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: dealed into this question a little bit in their August 195 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: episode entitled Samurai Women. It's a really interesting episode that 196 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: I recommend you listen to if you want to learn 197 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: more about this topic in general. H as is the 198 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: case with a lot of the things that we're talking 199 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: about today, I have a feeling that there probably was 200 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: a young woman known as Tomoe who was involved in 201 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: some way, but the the almost godlike stature that that 202 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: she has been given in later retailings, probably embellishment. We're 203 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: going to talk about some more things after a sponsor 204 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 1: break that sounds great, including including a really creepy thing 205 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: that people ask us about every Halloween that I love. Yes, 206 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: so we get a lot of requests to talk about 207 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: the terrifying cannibal Sanny Bean, especially around Halloween. I was 208 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: sure the people in Scotland would probably say that differently, 209 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: but then I watched videos of Scottish people talking about 210 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: it and they all said sanny Bean. So sanny Bean was. 211 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 1: Sanny Bean is a really famous figure in Scotland, and 212 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: according to the lore, sanny Bean more properly known as 213 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: Alexander Bean, and his wife abandoned their home in East Lothian. 214 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: They wound up living in a cave on the coast 215 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,599 Speaker 1: of Scotland, and there they turned to a life of cannibalism. 216 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: They murdered traveler travelers on a nearby road, then took 217 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: them back to the cave, cooked them and ate them 218 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: and in a maneuver that sounds like something out of 219 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: that super wonderful but also terrifying X Files episode with 220 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: the Peacock family, uh, Sawny Bean and his wife Black 221 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: Agnes Douglas had children, and their children intermarried among one another, 222 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: forming an incestuous cannibal clan that terrorized the neighboring region 223 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: for at least twenty five years. Supposedly, this all played 224 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: out sometime in the fifteenth century, and when the king 225 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: heard that people were going missing thanks to somebody who 226 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: actually escaped sawny Bean's clutches, he sent soldiers to capture 227 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: the whole group of them. The women and the children 228 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: were put to death first by being burned at the 229 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: stake while the men were forced to watch, and then 230 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: the men were themselves hanged. And this story is really 231 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: entrenched in Scottish folklore, especially in the southwestern part of 232 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: the country around Ayrshire, where it allegedly all took place, 233 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: and there are even tours to sawnny Bean's supposed cave 234 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: for tourists and the fans of the Grizzly. But there's 235 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 1: no evidence that any of this ever happened. There's no 236 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: archaeological evidence of a family living in a cave and 237 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: cooking and eating other people there. There are no no 238 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: royal records of a man hunt followed by a man 239 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: a mass execution. There are no records of survivors saying 240 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: their families had fallen victims to cannibals on the road 241 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: in that part of Scotland, and even though it all 242 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: supposedly happened around the fifteenth century, the first mention of 243 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: it in writing didn't come along until seventeen thirty four, 244 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: in a book called quote the Lives and Actions of 245 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: the most Famous highwawand Highwaymen, which was printed in London 246 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 1: under a pseudonym. Not really sure who originally wrote it. 247 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: There are a few undated chat books that may have 248 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: come out before seventeen thirty four, but they definitely do 249 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: not date all the way back to the fifth, fifteenth, 250 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: or even sixteenth centuries by any stretch. They are a 251 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: lot more recent than that. It's certainly possible that there 252 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: was a cannibalistic murderer in southeastern Scotland sometime around the 253 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: fifteenth century, and that this became the basis for the 254 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: Sawny being legend. But given how many of the first 255 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: written and accounts of it were penned and published in England, 256 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: it is actually a lot more likely that somebody made 257 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: it up to portray Scotland is a dangerous inbred place 258 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: just loaded with depraved killers. Uh. This may not have 259 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: even been intentional. This extremely maccab's story may have just 260 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,239 Speaker 1: captured the imaginations of writers who already thought that Scotland 261 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: was not really a good place to visit. This all 262 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: kind of makes the fact that Sawny Bean has become 263 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: a source of tourism dollars in Scotland today kind of 264 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: a cool turnabout. It's like it was originally mentioned either 265 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: to implicitly or explicitly paint Scotland is a dangerous place. Uh, 266 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: not so much anymore. Even if there wasn't a Sawny 267 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: Bean or someone sort of like him living in Scotland 268 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: in the fifteenth century. This story has been around at 269 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: least since the eighteenth century, so it does have kind 270 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: of a history of its own. And now we're going 271 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: to get to a topic that I personally love and 272 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: wish we could do a real episode on because we 273 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: had a ton of request about Lan. You tried multiple time. 274 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: It is like I will try to kind of like 275 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: do some research and see where any like actual heart 276 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: evidence is and it just never quite like I pull 277 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: the thread and it just pulls off and is a 278 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: tiny fragment of something, it's never anything substantial enough to 279 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: really be a standalone episode, and it becomes also very 280 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: difficult to figure out which parts of the story are 281 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: true and which parts are mythology and which parts. As 282 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: we've talked about in many episodes throughout our years on 283 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: this podcast, there are some where the mythology and the 284 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: truth really kind of getting meshed in a way that 285 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: it is impossible to figure out what degree which of 286 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: them is driving the bus. So the first written reference 287 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: to Mulan is in the Ballad of Mulan also known 288 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: as Ode of Mulan, which is a Chinese poem from 289 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: the fifth or sixth century. This poem follows the pattern 290 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: of folk songs that were popular at the time, so 291 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: it's definitely conceivable that there were some folk songs about 292 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: this character before the poem itself was composed. And the 293 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 1: poem begins with Mulan weaving it a loom, and she's 294 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: worried because the con has called for troops, and on 295 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: the list of men who are required to report for 296 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: duty is Mulan's father. But her father is old and 297 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: she has no older brothers, and so she wants to 298 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: buy a saddle and a horse and serve in her 299 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: father's place. In the poem, she does this, she buys 300 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: the horse in the saddle, as well as a bridle 301 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,719 Speaker 1: and a whip, and she reports for duty dress as 302 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: a boy. She serves nobly for ten years, but when 303 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: it's time for the con to recognize her for her 304 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: achievements and offers her promotion, she says she only wants 305 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: a fast horse to take her back home. As with 306 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: Tomoi goes in. Mulan's story became incredibly popular in China 307 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: in the centuries after this ballad was first composed, a 308 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: whole collection of stories, song and tales have talked about 309 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: Lulan who dressed as a boy to serve in the 310 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: army in place of her father. But there's really just 311 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: not a lot of detail about who that original fifth 312 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: century woman might have been, or even if she was real. 313 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: We have no idea now and I wished, I wish 314 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: there were more detail, because, as we've talked about before, 315 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: the ladies that that dress up as men to go 316 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: to war like those tend to be some of my 317 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: favorite stories. They are, and it's a great Disney movie. 318 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: And now we're going to take another quick sponsor break. 319 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: Before we get our last to our last two impossible 320 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: episodes on our an ultimate Impossible episode. At around three 321 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning on March fourteenth, nine year old 322 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: Katherine Genevies, who was known as Kitty, was murdered on 323 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: her way home from work at a bar in queen Is, 324 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: New York. And this is not apocryphal at all. That 325 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: definitely really happened. She fought back against her assailant for 326 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: about forty minutes, during which time she was stabbed repeatedly, 327 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: and she was eventually raped. This attack ended in the vestibule, 328 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: the vestibule of her own building. We've had a huge 329 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 1: uptick in request for this one lately, and I think 330 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: it's because it appeared in an episode of Girls as 331 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: Like a Play. Also, as I discovered as I was 332 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: researching this, the perpetrator died recently. Yeah, it's kind of 333 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: been one of those things that's hovering on the edges 334 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: of social conscience lately. Uh. And allegedly the and the 335 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: reason why people ask us to tell this story is 336 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: it thirty seven or thirty eight other people stood by 337 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: and did nothing while Kitty Genevies fought four and then 338 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,719 Speaker 1: of course lost her life. As reported in the New 339 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: York Times on March seven, nineteen sixty four, quote, for 340 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: more than half an hour, thirty eight respectable law abiding 341 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: citizens in Queens watched a killers stock and stab a 342 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: woman in three separate attacks in kew gardens. And according 343 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: to the New York Times, the reason for three separate 344 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: attacks was that twice someone hearing a commotion outside turned 345 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: on a light, which scared the perpetrator away. And according 346 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: to that same New York Times article, it was only 347 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: when the ambulance came that people actually came out of 348 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: their homes. Winston Moseley, he was captured a few days 349 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: later during a burglary, confessed to the crime, as well 350 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: as the murders and sexual assaults of two other women 351 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: in New York. He was ultimately tried only for his 352 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: crimes against Genevese, for which he was convicted after a 353 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: second trial. The first one actually ended up in a 354 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: hung jury. As we noted a moment ago, he spent 355 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: almost fifty two years in prison, and he died in 356 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: April of sixteen at the age of eighty one. Back 357 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties, this murder led to a lot 358 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: of research and discussion about whether ordinary citizens are morally 359 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,959 Speaker 1: or legally obligated to report crimes, and it also led 360 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: to a lot of research into the bystander effect. So 361 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: this is the idea that people are less likely to 362 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: help when there are other people around. Basically they think 363 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: that one of those other people has already taken care 364 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 1: of the situation. And the bystander effect, also known as 365 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 1: the diffusion of responsibility, is also a real thing, just 366 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: as this murder was a very real thing. Yeah, I know, 367 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: I personally have been, say, driving down a busy highway 368 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: and I see someone trying to change a car by 369 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: the side of the road, Like, people are a lot 370 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: less likely to stop if there are lots of people 371 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: on the highway, then if it's fairly deserted and you're 372 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: thinking that person might not get help from someone else, Like, 373 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: this is a real phenomenon that definitely exists. The case 374 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: also spawned a number of places to start adopting Good 375 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: Samaritan laws, and it was one of the factors that 376 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,719 Speaker 1: led to the adoption of nine one one is an 377 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: emergency number. However, this number of thirty seven or thirty 378 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: eight people, which is included with just about every single 379 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: mention of Kitty Genevise and is the thing that people 380 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: remember most about this case was actually greatly exaggerated. It 381 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: apparently came from a casual conversation between the police commissioner 382 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: and a journalist, and it was meant to simply be 383 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: an estimate of how many witnesses the police had interviewed, 384 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: not an estimate of how many people had failed to act. 385 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: The actual number of interviewees seems to be uh forty nine, 386 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: not thirty seven or thirty eight, but that would have 387 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: included people who had absolutely no information to share because 388 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 1: they weren't at home or they didn't wake up from 389 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: the noise. And the words of researchers who thoroughly reviewed 390 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: all of the evidence and then published their findings in 391 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: the journal American Psychologists in two thousand seven quote. Using 392 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: archive material, the authors show that there is no evidence 393 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: for the presence of thirty eight witnesses, or that witnesses 394 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: observed the murder, or that witnesses remained inactive. Some of 395 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 1: those people who were interviewed also thought that what they 396 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: were hearing was a domestic dispute and that it just 397 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: simply wasn't their business. Others didn't think there was much 398 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: of a point in calling the police, since in those 399 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: pre nine one one years there really wasn't a central 400 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: dispatch or a way of handling emergency calls, so police 401 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: response was not super consistent. The sixties was also an era, 402 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,719 Speaker 1: particularly I think in Queens, New York, of people simply 403 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: not trusting the police as a general rule. Yeah, there 404 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: was a lot of tension between police and citizenry at 405 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: that time, um. And there were definitely people who were 406 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: interviewed who were like, well, I saw something that was happening, 407 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: but I didn't want to get involved. But they were 408 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: also the person who eventually was there when Katie Geneviez 409 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: actually died, was somebody who left her apartment to go 410 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: to help, not even knowing if the killer was still there. 411 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: So the whole way that it's framed as the entirety 412 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: of Queens literally did not care like that is a 413 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: huge exaggeration and not actually true. Um, but it's definitely 414 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 1: the reason that people asked to talk about her and 415 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: the reason that the case is still remembered today. Our 416 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,719 Speaker 1: last impossible thing is actually one that makes me a 417 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: little bit sad to debunk. Um. It's been a while 418 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,239 Speaker 1: since we've gotten a request for this one, although I 419 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: was surprised that we didn't get a new wave of 420 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: them after our recent episode on knitting. Although we did 421 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: get some request to talk about quilting in general. And 422 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,479 Speaker 1: that's the idea that quilts were used as codes by 423 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: the underground rail Road. Yeah, that idea was actually popularized 424 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 1: in the book Hidden in Plain View, A Secret Story 425 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: of Quilts and the Underground Railroad by Jacqueline Tobin and 426 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: Raymond Dobard, which came out, and since then the idea 427 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: of quilt codes made its way into lots of children's books. 428 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: It's in quilting books, uh, and even in interpretive displays 429 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: in museums and in craft centers. It shows up on 430 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: government websites, just lots of places. Yeah, it's presented as 431 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: absolute fact in many places that you would think of 432 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: as a reputable place for facts, like museums. So we 433 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: want to make something really clear, I mean enormously clear 434 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: right up front. Quilting was definitely a really important craft 435 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: among enslaved women, and a lot of quilting history has 436 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: really ignored the contributions of black of black women, both 437 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: free and enslaved. Pre Civil War white women sometimes get 438 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: the credit for beautiful quilts that were actually pieced and 439 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: stitched by enslaved women for them. Scholarly examinations of African 440 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: motifs and symbols and African American quilts are actually quite recent, 441 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: considering the greater history of quilting as a whole, which 442 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 1: for a long time was really focused on white quilters 443 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: and not Black quilters. I was actually at a museum 444 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: exhibition about quilts and there was literally a quilt, one 445 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: one quilt in the whole thing by an African American person, 446 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: and the sign at that quilt it infuriated me because 447 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,239 Speaker 1: it basically was like black people made quilts to quilts too, 448 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: they were a lot like the quilts of white people, 449 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: and that like was all that they had to say 450 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,719 Speaker 1: about that, and that was the only representation of uh like, 451 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: African influence on quilting or African mult American quiltures in 452 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: the entire thing. I found it enormously frustrating. Yeah, uh So, 453 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: the idea though that the quilts were codes for the 454 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: underground rail road unfortunately hasn't really held up to scholarly scrutiny. 455 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: Uh Do Bart and Tobin source was Ozella McDaniel Williams, 456 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: who was a quilter and a descendant of enslaved women, 457 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,239 Speaker 1: who related the story of how her ancestors would use 458 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: quilts to plan and coordinate escapes, and according to williams description, 459 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: a woman would make a sampler that would include all 460 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: ten patterns used in the code, which the other enslaved 461 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: people on the plantation could use to memorize those codes. 462 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: The next step after making this sampler was to make 463 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: ten full sized quilts, one for each of the ten patterns. 464 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: When the full sized quilt was hung up uh for 465 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: people to see it, it was time to take whatever 466 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: step was encoded in its pattern. The next step in 467 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: this whole process was to make ten full sized quilts, 468 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: one full quilt for each of the patterns that was 469 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: used in this sampler. When the full sized quote would 470 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: be hung up, it was time to take whatever step 471 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: was represented by that pattern. Some of these were actions 472 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 1: to be taken before escaping the plantation. Like a monkey 473 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: wrench pattern was meant to gather up your tools. There 474 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: was a basket pattern which was meant to gather enough 475 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: supplies for a long journey. There was also a wagon wheel, 476 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: which either meant to load the wagon or actually prepare 477 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,719 Speaker 1: to leave, depending on who who you talked to. You 478 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: others in these patterns were information to be followed along 479 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: the way, like a north star pattern meant to follow 480 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: the north Star, and a sail boat meant to take 481 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: a boat across the Great Lakes. It's such a cool concept, 482 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 1: but there are just so many unanswered questions about this 483 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: whole idea. Ozella McDaniel Williams has passed away in the 484 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: years since that book was published, and there aren't any 485 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: other oral history testimonies that survived to confirm her account. 486 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: There are no written records or references to coded quilts 487 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 1: and slave narratives or in interviews conducted with people who 488 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: had previously been enslaved, and there are also none in 489 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: the remembrances or documents of people who worked along the 490 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: underground railroad. There are also no actual quilts surviving today, 491 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: at least none that anyone has found. Yeah, they're definitely 492 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: quotes that used these patterns, but not that not ones 493 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: that they all the way back to before the Civil War. 494 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: The book's authors and other people who have written in 495 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: support of this idea. You point out that a lot 496 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: of the people making and using these quilts wouldn't have 497 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: been literate, and that the quilts themselves would have been 498 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: used as bed coverings until the end of their useful life, 499 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: which explains both the lack of written records and the 500 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: lack of quilts as physical artifacts. But there are a 501 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: lot of practical questions as well. The late historian Giles 502 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: are right pointed out a number of ways in which 503 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: the instructions purportedly outlined in the quilts were completely different 504 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: from established scholarship on the underground railroad, including that enslaved 505 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: people in South Carolina who escaped via the underground railroad 506 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: generally went northeast, not toward Cleveland, as would have been 507 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: directed in the quilt blocks. Yeah, these these blocks, uh 508 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: purportedly originated from a South Carolina plantation, And in addition 509 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: to that, it takes a long time to make a 510 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: full sized quilt, and this system purportedly required ten full 511 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: sized quilts plus the sampler, which really would have would 512 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: have been a huge and i'm consuming undertaking. Even if 513 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: a plantation's enslaved women essentially held quilting bees after their 514 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: other work was done, this really seems like an extraordinary 515 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: and kind of convoluted and counterproductive amount of time and 516 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: effort to put toward documenting very simple instructions like gather 517 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: your tools and load up the wagons. In a two 518 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: thousand seven Time magazine article, Tobin said, quote, it's frustrating 519 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: to be attacked and not allowed to celebrate this amazing 520 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: oral story of one family's experience. Whether or not it's 521 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: completely valid, I have no idea, but it makes sense 522 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: with the amount of research we did. My personal feeling 523 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: on the matter is that Ozella McDaniel Williams ancestors probably 524 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: really were making quilts, and they were probably using patterns 525 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: and blocks that contained motifs that were related to freedom 526 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: and escape, but that these family stories kind of morphed 527 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: over the years to become that they were literally codes 528 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: for the underground railroad, and that that part probably didn't 529 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: happen it. Really, it wouldn't surprise me at all though, 530 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: if her ancestors were making quilts that were sort of 531 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: imbued with imagery that symbolized freedom as a form of resistance, 532 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: even if they were not literally being used as tools 533 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: of escape. Yeah, it's one of those things where probably 534 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: the details have morphed a little over time and gotten 535 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: a little a little fuzzy and taken on different meetings 536 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: than their original. Yeah, it sort of ties to the 537 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: idea that like most of the enslaved people and possibly 538 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: all of the enslaved people on the plantation would not 539 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: have known how to read, which is why visual symbols 540 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: were used. But that is like, I cannot think of 541 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: a visual symbol that would have taken longer to make 542 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: before displaying to people, right, Like, uh, but yeah, it's 543 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: it's not not at all to try to erase the 544 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: importance the culture and cultural importance of quilt saying among 545 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: enslaved women and then later on among African American cultures 546 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: who have been so long overlooked in history. But that 547 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: underground railroad railroad part of it is not not really 548 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: something that can be substantiated. And it also a lot 549 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: of folks have very romanticized ideas about the underground railroad, 550 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: and the idea that very pretty things like quilts and 551 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,479 Speaker 1: songs were a big parts specifically of the underground railroad 552 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: sort of ties to that uh, feel good aspect of 553 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: the underground railroad when it's a great into Yeah, it's 554 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: like singing and quilting both very culturally important, but a 555 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: lot of the songs that people have said we're used 556 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: by the under underground railroad to to spread codes are 557 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: are much more recent than that time also, so it 558 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: sort of gives this um the shine to the underground railroad. 559 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: That makes the whole story, like the more palatable aspect 560 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: of slavery, which I think it's important to have stories 561 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: that are accessible to children, but the a lot of 562 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: adults also, I think that the underground Railroad was sort 563 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: of a a dangerous but ultimately happy experience right well. 564 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: And my thing with any of those, whether it's related 565 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: to something like the underground Railroad or anything, is that 566 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: when because there are people who will be like, why 567 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: do you why do you want to attack that? It's 568 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: a great story, but when you give credence to things 569 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: that didn't happen, you're robbing the actual story of its 570 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: place in history. Yeah. I read a really interesting paper 571 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: while I was researching this that was about children's literature 572 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: that that has drawn from this whole quilte idea and 573 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: how this this literature for children. Uh, what's good about 574 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: it is how it ties to the idea of like 575 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: make king an identity for yourself and and making a 576 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: world for yourself that uh that you can be a 577 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: part of, and not so much about um factual information 578 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: about the underground railroad for kids. Now that we've covered 579 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: lots of things that may or may not have happened 580 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: or didn't happen the way that people have always been 581 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: told they did. Do you have some listener mail that 582 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: really am for true happened? It really did? It really 583 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: is what you happened. Um. It is about an episode 584 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: that you did the research for, but about a comment 585 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,240 Speaker 1: that I made during the episode, and it's from Orla 586 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: uh and it is response to the fact that when 587 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: we were talking about carbon fiber knitting needles, which I 588 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: think was actually in a listener mail about our knitting episode, 589 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: I was like, why would you need that? That seems 590 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: a little excessive, And so Orla rights to say, I 591 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: was listening to your listener mail segment and you were 592 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: wondering about the reason for carbon fiber and knitting needles. 593 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 1: There are four main materials for knitting needles these days, 594 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: would often bamboo for the list expensive versions, metal acrylic, 595 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,479 Speaker 1: which is just becoming popular over the last few years, 596 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: and carbon fiber depending on what you are working, knitting 597 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: needles can get very small. For example, zero zero zero 598 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: zero needles are one point zero millimeters, and according to Wikipedia, 599 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: the smallest size is zero zero zero zero zero zero, 600 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: which is zero point seven millimeters. If you're using wood 601 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: or acrylic needles, they can easily break from someone holding 602 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: the needles too tightly, or even just carrying them in 603 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: your bag between knitting sessions. But metal needles are sometimes 604 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: unpleasant to work with. They're my least favorite kind of 605 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: needle because as I formed the stitches, my needles rub 606 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: against each other and I don't like the sound. Also, 607 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: different needle materials of knitting needles work better with different 608 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: types of yarn. Acrylic yarn tends to stick to acrylic needles. 609 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 1: For example, carbon fiber has the advantage of being very 610 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,879 Speaker 1: tough to break, even in the smallest sizes. It also 611 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: isn't as sticky with acrylic yarns. However, they tend to 612 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: be more expense of and either have very sharp points 613 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: in the end or have a metal tip, which can 614 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: sometimes cause a bump where the carbon and metal join. 615 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: And then she writes to say that basically a lot 616 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: of this boils down to personal preference. She has met 617 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people that have had a lot of 618 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: different preferences in terms of their needle type. So thank 619 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: you so much or love for answering that question. I 620 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: did definitely is that when I learned that people were 621 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: making the knitting needles out of carbon fiber, was like, 622 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: that seems like a little bit of overkill for a 623 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: knitting needle material. So I am glad to have more 624 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: information about that. If you would like to write to 625 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 1: us about this or any other podcast, where History podcasts 626 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. We're also on Facebook 627 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: at facebook dot com slash miss in history and on 628 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: Twitter at miss in history. 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