Speaker 1: If you've watched an action movie featuring a tall actress
Speaker 1: in the last twenty years, then you have seen Kimberly
Speaker 1: Shannon Murphy. One of Hollywood's top stunt women, Kimberly is
Speaker 1: the go to stunt double for Cameron Diaz, Uma Thurman,
Speaker 1: Sandra Bullock, Angelina, Jolee Blake, Lively, Sharon Stone, and Moore.
Speaker 1: Her day job sounds terrifying, jumping off buildings, crashing cars,
Speaker 1: but it pales in comparison to Kimberly's real life childhood.
Speaker 1: Starting when she was just two years old, Kimberly experienced
Speaker 1: severe childhood sexual abuse by a family member. Kimberly's extraordinary
Speaker 1: and heartbreaking new memoir Glimmer, a story of survival, hope,
Speaker 1: and healing, reveals that the abuse went back generations. Her mother, aunt,
Speaker 1: and numerous other women in her family were also preyed upon.
Speaker 1: In this emotional and eye opening episode of Navigating Narcissism,
Speaker 1: Kimberly bravely shares the devastation of suffering silently and the
Speaker 1: bold moves she's making to break the cycle for her daughter.
Speaker 1: From Red Table Talk Podcasts and iHeartMedia, I'm Doctor Romney
Speaker 1: and this is Navigating Narcissism. This podcast should not be
Speaker 1: used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice.
Speaker 1: Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and
Speaker 1: or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any
Speaker 1: medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters
Speaker 1: discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may
Speaker 1: be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed
Speaker 1: are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating
Speaker 1: in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of
Speaker 1: Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Kimberly, I
Speaker 1: had the opportunity to read your book, and it's so powerful.
Speaker 1: Your experience of intergenerational child sexual abuse and trauma is
Speaker 1: it happens so much more than people know, and it's
Speaker 1: not talked about enough. One of those conversations that still
Speaker 1: remains in the shadows, which is another reason your book
Speaker 1: is so powerful. These conversations are so important on navigating narcissism.
Speaker 1: We're really focused on the survivor and to that end,
Speaker 1: because it's your experience, I want you to begin sharing
Speaker 1: it with us wherever you want to begin it.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, The abuse started probably around two or three
Speaker 2: with my grandfather, my mother's father, and ended when he
Speaker 2: died when I was eleven. The entire time, four times
Speaker 2: a week, so it was a constant thing. My grandmother
Speaker 2: was complicit and was very aware of what was going
Speaker 2: on and didn't do anything about it. My mother was
Speaker 2: also a victim, and some of her siblings, and I'm
Speaker 2: sure all of her siblings. That's what I came into
Speaker 2: the world knowing. I didn't know any different. I just
Speaker 2: thought that that's how things were done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, as you experienced a nine continuous years of
Speaker 1: sexual abuse perpetrated by your grandfather, did anyone in your
Speaker 1: family speak out about what he was doing.
Speaker 2: My aunt tried in the fifties, my mother's sister, which
Speaker 2: is who I dedicate the book to, because she was
Speaker 2: probably the reason I'm sitting here right now. She gave
Speaker 2: me so much strength to do this. She was a
Speaker 2: phenomenal writer and wanted to write a book herself so badly.
Speaker 2: She died of Alzheimer's, but she told on him when
Speaker 2: she was nine yearyears old. Oh, and it was brought
Speaker 2: to the family's attention and he denied it, and that
Speaker 2: was it. And everything went on.
Speaker 1: What happened to her within the family.
Speaker 2: The abuse stopped once she told on him with her,
Speaker 2: but continued on with others.
Speaker 1: Continued on with others. It was denied. How is your
Speaker 1: grandfather regarded by your family?
Speaker 2: Amazing? He was amazing, Yes, the best person on the planet.
Speaker 2: Everybody loved him. He was successful in the eyes of
Speaker 2: he made money, he supported his family. During that time
Speaker 2: of that generation, it was very much respect your elders.
Speaker 2: What they say goes. You don't ask questions. This is
Speaker 2: how things are done. And so I didn't.
Speaker 1: Of course, I mean you couldn't. Yes, it's not even
Speaker 1: that you didn't. I think it's you couldn't.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: This person was that you was so valued. Your grandmother
Speaker 1: was complicit. She knew it. Others knew it, Yes, because
Speaker 1: they were abused and for a variety of reasons, had
Speaker 1: to remain completely unseeing or unacknowledging of it, and having
Speaker 1: to know that another generation of children were being perpetrated against.
Speaker 1: So by cultivating that persona it's part of the larger
Speaker 1: concept of grooming right because then it gives him sort
Speaker 1: of free access to everybody because he's implicitly trusted by
Speaker 1: everybody completely, and it completely silences all of the people
Speaker 1: who are perpetrated against and since he was choosing miners,
Speaker 1: they are already going to be silenced by virtue of
Speaker 1: being miners exactly. So, from the age of two to eleven,
Speaker 1: the entire period you were abused until he died, did
Speaker 1: you ever tell anyone about what was happening.
Speaker 2: I didn't feel like there was any safe adults around me,
Speaker 2: and even your aunt because I didn't know at the
Speaker 2: time about her. I didn't find out until later that
Speaker 2: she was abused and she had come forward. I didn't
Speaker 2: know any of this information, so I was terrified for
Speaker 2: my life. Yeah, he made it very clear that if
Speaker 2: I ever said anything that he would kill me.
Speaker 1: So that's it. You were effectively imprisoned in silence. When
Speaker 1: you were taken in for pediatric examinations, was it ever
Speaker 1: noticed there, because there are sometimes telltale signs of sexual
Speaker 1: abuse in children.
Speaker 2: He gave me her bees when I was eight, and
Speaker 2: that was sort of swept under the rug as well.
Speaker 2: I was taken to the doctor, but it was not
Speaker 2: accepted that that's what it was, and so I was
Speaker 2: never given medicine for it.
Speaker 1: So the doctor knew it. Doctor says something, and the
Speaker 1: unwillingness to acknowledge it meant that you also went untreated
Speaker 1: for an illness. Yeah, Kimberly, how was school going for you?
Speaker 2: I didn't do well in school. It didn't feel important
Speaker 2: to me. I felt like I had this thing that
Speaker 2: was happening in my life, and going to school and
Speaker 2: learning math was to me. I was like, Okay, but
Speaker 2: I have this thing that I knew in my heart
Speaker 2: wasn't right because it didn't feel right even though everyone
Speaker 2: around me wasn't doing anything about it. I've come to
Speaker 2: become good friends with doctor Matte through all of this,
Speaker 2: and he said something to me which really resonated with me.
Speaker 2: He said, your primary trauma was not the abuse. Your
Speaker 2: primary trauma was you never had adult support, because if
Speaker 2: you did, the trauma would have never happened in the
Speaker 2: first place.
Speaker 1: Yes, or if it did happen even once, it would
Speaker 1: have been validated. I couldn't agree with that more because
Speaker 1: for a child to not have the sense that any
Speaker 1: attachment needs could be met and there's no safety, that's
Speaker 1: the trauma. So we see, as he put it, the
Speaker 1: lack of protection. Doctor gabor Mate is a physician with
Speaker 1: expertise in trauma, childhood development, addiction, and stress. So then
Speaker 1: your grandfather dies, how did you feel at that point?
Speaker 2: Very good?
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, thank you for saying that. Can you say more?
Speaker 1: I think it's really important for people to hear that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I felt very good to
Speaker 1: you when I had that happening.
Speaker 2: An Yeah, I felt like I could finally figure out
Speaker 2: who I was. He was My identity didn't have one
Speaker 2: without him, at least that's how it felt for me.
Speaker 2: So when he died, I felt this just overwhelming sense
Speaker 2: of who am I now? I can finally figure out
Speaker 2: why I'm here. I knew it couldn't have been that.
Speaker 2: I know a lot of survivors and a lot of
Speaker 2: people that go through this kind of trauma when they're young.
Speaker 2: It stifles them in a lot of ways, and it
Speaker 2: did do that for me. But I also it gave
Speaker 2: me this odd strength which I've carried with me through
Speaker 2: my life. And so when he died, it was such
Speaker 2: a relief to me. And I remember, you know, being
Speaker 2: at a funeral and not crying and not feeling sad
Speaker 2: and feeling just relief.
Speaker 1: So important for people to hear that, because that kind
Speaker 1: of real at the time of someone's passing, were told,
Speaker 1: that's terrible if you feel that way. But I'm a
Speaker 1: reader of the book, and I felt relieved.
Speaker 2: I felt like I left my body during his funeral,
Speaker 2: and I felt like I didn't want to be around
Speaker 2: people who were praising him, which is what they were
Speaker 2: all doing. They were all getting up there and telling
Speaker 2: amazing stories about how incredible he was. And I never
Speaker 2: knew that. Man. My mom tells these stories about these
Speaker 2: amazing things that he did as a father, I didn't
Speaker 2: know that man. I hated him. I never had love
Speaker 2: for him. There was never that confusion for me, and
Speaker 2: I think some of his children have that confusion. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I always despised him.
Speaker 1: It's so complicated because many other people have gone through
Speaker 1: this kind of interfamilial abuse don't know what emotion to have.
Speaker 1: Am I supposed to hate this person, I'm supposed to
Speaker 1: love this person. His other victims within the family system,
Speaker 1: like your mother, like your aunt, and I'm sure many
Speaker 1: others had to tell themselves a different story in order
Speaker 1: to stay in the family system. If somebody spoke out,
Speaker 1: they were going to be firmly silenced and ostracized. Most
Speaker 1: people can't.
Speaker 2: Tolerate that, yes, which has happened to me.
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, So how much of that was ostracism and
Speaker 1: how much of that also was free will and choice?
Speaker 1: Because ostracism is something that happens to us. But there's
Speaker 1: also a point for survivors where you say, you know
Speaker 1: you don't need to kick me out. I'm out. Don't
Speaker 1: think this is some grand punishment for me. I have
Speaker 1: made the choice to step away, and I do want
Speaker 1: to unpack that with you, because I think that's a
Speaker 1: really important piece to tell.
Speaker 2: We speak of a fictitious character in the book as
Speaker 2: my sister. I actually have three sisters.
Speaker 1: Oh okay.
Speaker 2: My one sister, as soon as she found out I
Speaker 2: got a book deal, completely ghosted me. Haven't talked to
Speaker 2: her in three and a half years, and my youngest
Speaker 2: sister did the same thing. My middle sister was supportive,
Speaker 2: but I think she felt like she sort of had
Speaker 2: to choose a side. And there were things happening within
Speaker 2: our family system that as I got older and as
Speaker 2: I started healing, I realized we're extremely toxic and that
Speaker 2: we were all moving in this toxic way. We always
Speaker 2: called it. But we're just ameshed is what we would say.
Speaker 2: But there were never words then like there are now.
Speaker 2: We're just an a meshed family. We're just a meshed Well, no,
Speaker 2: we just didn't have boundaries. I don't think I learned
Speaker 2: what a boundary was I was thirty.
Speaker 1: A family system that is enmeshed is a family system
Speaker 1: with very poor boundaries and unhealthy emotional sharing and expectations
Speaker 1: cut through the family. There may also be lots of triangulation, gossip,
Speaker 1: and breaking of confidences. Parents may share inappropriate information with children,
Speaker 1: and when the children become adults, the parents may over
Speaker 1: rely on their children. There is a real pressure to
Speaker 1: keep everything in house, meaning people are discouraged from seeking
Speaker 1: help outside of the family. And mesh min doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that the family is deeply connected or committed. It really
Speaker 1: does mean that the boundaries are so blurred that the
Speaker 1: individual identities, safety, and needs of the people in the
Speaker 1: family get lost.
Speaker 2: So once I started really doing the work, I realized
Speaker 2: that having certain people in my life was not healthy
Speaker 2: for me, no matter how much I love them, and
Speaker 2: that how they chose to deal with their trauma was
Speaker 2: not how I was choosing to deal with my trauma,
Speaker 2: and I could not have a relationship with them, one
Speaker 2: of them being my father and one of them being
Speaker 2: my sister.
Speaker 1: That's a big moment. Yes, it's almost like you're talking
Speaker 1: about a family mass so in mesh that it was
Speaker 1: just like this toxic clump and that intergenerational cycle of
Speaker 1: protecting the system but not the individuals within it seemed
Speaker 1: to persist. There's no safety, but it's almost like strength
Speaker 1: in numbers. Okay, where a family we're all together. And
Speaker 1: I guess that was the real test. You get the
Speaker 1: book deal, you're going to speak your truth. And that's
Speaker 1: when they said, no, this family system has no room
Speaker 1: for truth.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 1: You said You're sisters chose to deal with their trauma differently,
Speaker 1: How did they deal with their trauma?
Speaker 2: They didn't?
Speaker 1: They didn't. Okay, so your sisters were abused to they
Speaker 1: chose not to deal with them.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 1: You said you knew what was happening wasn't right. But
Speaker 1: when did you recognize or realize that this was abuse?
Speaker 2: When he died, I think I felt safer. My parents
Speaker 2: were in a very safe space for me. Ever, my mom,
Speaker 2: because of her abuse, just was there but not there.
Speaker 2: And my dad, he was in Vietnam very young and
Speaker 2: didn't come from the most functional family, and so his
Speaker 2: idea of fatherhood is very different than my idea of fatherhood.
Speaker 2: But I started having flashbacks that were debilitating for me.
Speaker 2: I would see him, or I would uncontrollably shake and
Speaker 2: not understand why, and then things would flash in my head,
Speaker 2: and then I'd hide in my closet. And when that
Speaker 2: started happening, I knew that something was really wrong. My
Speaker 2: mom had this encyclopedia of diseases which I looked through
Speaker 2: every day and diagnosed myself with every sort of everything,
Speaker 2: which now I can see was I just needed to
Speaker 2: find something concrete that was wrong with me because there
Speaker 2: was so much wrong that nobody was acknowledging. I cried
Speaker 2: every day. I remember thinking, Okay, this can't be normal.
Speaker 2: I'm a child, I'm crying every day. Why am I
Speaker 2: crying every day? There's nothing that I can really hang
Speaker 2: on to. Even though there was abuse going on in
Speaker 2: my own home, as far as narcissistic abuse, as I've
Speaker 2: come to know now, but then I did not because
Speaker 2: for me, there was such this massive abuse that I
Speaker 2: had endured that what was going on in my house
Speaker 2: was nothing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, of course, yes, it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is just dad, Dad. Well, I mean and listen,
Speaker 1: Even when there's not that other simultaneous sexual abuse happening
Speaker 1: in a family, people still do think that this is
Speaker 1: just dad. But their body holds that this doesn't feel good,
Speaker 1: this doesn't feel comfortable. It's risky for me to be myself,
Speaker 1: it's dangerous to express needs that all gets internalized. But
Speaker 1: that's the only reality, you know. So I think thinking
Speaker 1: that it's just dad, I think that's part and parcel
Speaker 1: of what childhood narcissistic abuse survivors would all say, Well,
Speaker 1: was there a point at which you did share with
Speaker 1: someone in the family you had been abused or learned
Speaker 1: more about these cycles of sexual abuse within your family.
Speaker 2: I told my mother and she immediately left the room
Speaker 2: in a panic and came back and said, we're going
Speaker 2: to go see my therapist tomorrow. You're not going to school.
Speaker 2: And I was like, you have a therapist. She said, yes,
Speaker 2: someone hurt me too, and then she just went to bed.
Speaker 2: Then the next day I was in the office with
Speaker 2: her with her therapist, and I didn't feel safe there either,
Speaker 2: because I, of course it's a total stranger and she
Speaker 2: was really pushy, and I didn't even know what I
Speaker 2: was experiencing.
Speaker 1: Four years since your grandfather's died. You tell your mother,
Speaker 1: she has you go talk to a therapist. But that
Speaker 1: was a little bit abrupt. You really needed your mom
Speaker 1: to not split away. It sounds like you understand enough
Speaker 1: about trauma to understand why your mom just split away
Speaker 1: and what her trauma response was. But her motherhood didn't
Speaker 1: supersede that response. It never had. She had never kept
Speaker 1: you safe. She knew this was coming, and she didn't
Speaker 1: do anything about it. So that's your mom. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about your narcissistic father. I want to understand that a
Speaker 1: little bit. So do I Okay, well you know what yeh?
Speaker 1: Come to the right place, yes, yes, So tell me
Speaker 1: a little bit about dad.
Speaker 2: So he didn't believe me when my memory surfaced.
Speaker 1: So that's just the ultimated validation. I don't know that
Speaker 1: you move forward from that.
Speaker 2: I think from my father, him having to admit that
Speaker 2: this happened on his watch was way too overwhelming for him,
Speaker 2: and so it was easier for him to just say
Speaker 2: absolutely not, this couldn't happened, and the abuse happened when
Speaker 2: the adults were all present, like this was Christmas, this
Speaker 2: was parties, this was you know. That's why I always say, like,
Speaker 2: know where your children are all the time, because it
Speaker 2: was happening under their feet literally, and I'm not belittling
Speaker 2: anybody's abuse, but it was very severe abuse. So for
Speaker 2: a long time, it was really confusing to me. How
Speaker 2: you know my mom never saw, or my dad or
Speaker 2: no one ever saw. That was something that I really
Speaker 2: struggled with because I just know now as a mom,
Speaker 2: my daughter doesn't leave my sight for thirty seconds without
Speaker 2: me knowing where she is. And then once I started
Speaker 2: writing and really excavating and really pretty much having to
Speaker 2: go no contact with my family, I remember that my
Speaker 2: mom actually did walk in on a few occasions, and
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 1: That he had.
Speaker 2: Grimmed her so much and she was so afraid of
Speaker 2: him that the minute he told her to get out,
Speaker 2: she did. And I didn't matter.
Speaker 1: Yes, and you weren't protected. I'm so sorry, Thank you
Speaker 1: for sharing that. Sorry, don't you ever say sorry for crying? Please?
Speaker 2: You know your your condition to apologize.
Speaker 1: When I know your conditions. Yes, I almost wish we
Speaker 1: had kind of like a little bit of a buzzer.
Speaker 2: Hi.
Speaker 1: Sorry, we don't say I'm sorry. Navigating narcissism or navigating
Speaker 1: narcissism means never having to say you're sorry. But just
Speaker 1: like you said, you can't rank trauma higher or lower,
Speaker 1: yours was very severe. I read the book It's very severe.
Speaker 1: That's an objective clinical opinion that it was very severe.
Speaker 1: Trauma affects everyone differently, and the way your mother and
Speaker 1: father responded to it. Your mother witnessed it, and then
Speaker 1: you have someone like your father who it's interesting how
Speaker 1: you framed that to me, Kimberly is that he didn't
Speaker 1: want it to have been happened on his watch. How
Speaker 1: did he feel about your grandfather while your grandfather was alive?
Speaker 2: Did he loved him?
Speaker 1: He loved him.
Speaker 2: My dad came from a very poor family, and my
Speaker 2: mother's family had money, and I think that was very
Speaker 2: attractive to him, and he felt like they could do
Speaker 2: no wrong. And even stories I heard later on in
Speaker 2: life that would make me question as an adult. You know,
Speaker 2: my dad told me a story once, Oh, I had
Speaker 2: to pick your grandfather up and talk about having inappropriate
Speaker 2: conversations with your child at a strip club in the
Speaker 2: middle of the day, and I'm you know, now in
Speaker 2: the space I'm at now, Okay, well, no one found
Speaker 2: that odd on the middle of a work day that
Speaker 2: he's at a strip club and he's in his sixties.
Speaker 2: I did a lot of digging because I needed to
Speaker 2: understand how this survived and how he was able to
Speaker 2: get away with it for so long. It was really
Speaker 2: important to me for a long time to try to
Speaker 2: just wrap my head around how I could have been
Speaker 2: so hurt around so many adults that were supposed to
Speaker 2: protect me.
Speaker 1: What did your process of exploring this.
Speaker 2: Reveal that everybody sucked?
Speaker 1: Okay? You know what, though we could use all kinds
Speaker 1: of fancy words like they were all enablers and you know,
Speaker 1: intergenerational this and this is how they managed betrayal and
Speaker 1: they couldn't process it, but it really does come down
Speaker 1: to everybody sucks. All right. I want to go back
Speaker 1: again to your mom, because your mom went through this,
Speaker 1: your mom had witnessed it. You find out at the
Speaker 1: age of eight, at a doctor's office you have a
Speaker 1: sexually transmitted infection. There's only one place that could have
Speaker 1: come from from another adult, And at fifteen, she runs
Speaker 1: out of the room when you tell her, and then
Speaker 1: she gives you a therapist, you don't know anything about,
Speaker 1: no other place to process it. At the age of fifteen,
Speaker 1: How did you start working through that? How did your
Speaker 1: relationship with your mother evolve?
Speaker 2: It didn't.
Speaker 1: It didn't. I could see that.
Speaker 2: It's hard because she was abused up until the day
Speaker 2: before her wedding, So is her entire life.
Speaker 1: Your mother was abused the day before, and then after
Speaker 1: a wedding it stopped.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. I mean, who knows.
Speaker 1: You have a father who was in complete denial that
Speaker 1: his daughter was harmed.
Speaker 2: Here if he was sitting here, he'll say, I don't
Speaker 2: know what you're talking about. I believed you.
Speaker 1: He harmed you. Twice. He harms you on the front
Speaker 1: end when he says that didn't happen, and then he
Speaker 1: harms you again when he says, I did say that happened.
Speaker 2: I never not believed you, is what he'll say to
Speaker 2: me until and I know the day when my other
Speaker 2: sister came forward with her memories when we were older,
Speaker 2: in our twenties, is when I was actually validated by
Speaker 2: my father.
Speaker 1: Why do you think he what was what did he
Speaker 1: turn on?
Speaker 2: I was the drama queen in the family.
Speaker 1: That's how they characterized.
Speaker 2: Yes, so I think for him having someone else acknowledge it.
Speaker 2: My sister he has a different relationship with, and so
Speaker 2: that's when I was actually believed by him.
Speaker 1: So you're labeled the drama queen of the family, you're
Speaker 1: not believed. Your sister comes around, it still doesn't feel
Speaker 1: like you were believed. It feels like your sister was
Speaker 1: believed and you kind of just got sort of swept in.
Speaker 1: What was that feeling like that he would believe her
Speaker 1: and not you.
Speaker 2: My dad and I had a very tumultuous relationship because
Speaker 2: I called him out on his shit. I haven't spoken
Speaker 2: to in eight months, and that was my decision.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: I couldn't keep having the same conversations with him on
Speaker 2: the phone, which were all about him and all about
Speaker 2: the only thing that he would ever say about my
Speaker 2: grandfather was, you know, if he was alive, I'd kill him,
Speaker 2: which is not comforting for me. It was just felt
Speaker 2: like a merry go round all the time. I couldn't
Speaker 2: be in the toxicity anymore, and he was very toxic
Speaker 2: in my life.
Speaker 1: Narcissistic relationships, especially long standing family relationships, can feel like
Speaker 1: merry go rounds. As Kimberly just described, you share how
Speaker 1: you feel, they come back with their same response around
Speaker 1: you go, and nothing ever changes. If you find yourself
Speaker 1: in this merry go round pattern, I often advise folks
Speaker 1: to either get a timer for when they are going
Speaker 1: to talk with the narcissistic person, or to make a
Speaker 1: promise to themselves that the first time the narcissistic person
Speaker 1: says the same invalidating thing, For example his comment about
Speaker 1: her grandfather that you find a way to end the conversation. Sadly,
Speaker 1: we often need to ride this carousel for a long
Speaker 1: time before we can finally decide to hop off. We
Speaker 1: will be right back with this conversation.
Speaker 2: So I sat down and I wrote him a seven
Speaker 2: page letter about my feelings and how I never felt
Speaker 2: supported by him in so many ways, and just my
Speaker 2: choice of career and so many things that he never
Speaker 2: supported me on until he saw me on television, and
Speaker 2: then everything changed because he could show his friends that
Speaker 2: his daughter was on television. And I also said, there's options,
Speaker 2: we can heal, we can change, we can grow, we
Speaker 2: can work on this. And I never heard from him again. Wow,
Speaker 2: everything with my father, every mean horrible thing, he would
Speaker 2: say to me, which was many always ended with I'm
Speaker 2: just kidding.
Speaker 1: Ah, the ultimate guess, like, yeah, I'm just kidding. You
Speaker 1: know it's a big guest lighty thing to do. Right,
Speaker 1: So you've had a real reaction to something, because it's cruel,
Speaker 1: your reactions witnessed. Narcissistic person knows what's right and what's wrong.
Speaker 1: They're just always trying to keep people off balance. You
Speaker 1: register hurt, then it's I'm just kidding, which makes you
Speaker 1: look crazy for having a reaction to something when they
Speaker 1: were just joking. And now it's back to Kimberly's dramatic yes,
Speaker 1: that whole I'm just kidding. It's just blood sport, and
Speaker 1: that seems to be how he had his interactions. So
Speaker 1: from age fifteen, your mother and you hid an impasse.
Speaker 1: At that point, your father's your father. So what happens then?
Speaker 1: How does your life move forward? I left you? Oh,
Speaker 1: you moved away? Okay, yeh?
Speaker 2: At what?
Speaker 1: Age eighteen eighteen?
Speaker 2: I'm from New York. I moved to California to mourn.
Speaker 2: But I wasn't handling things in a healthy way. I
Speaker 2: was bleamic, I was cutting, I was doing all the
Speaker 2: things really just as I say, like I was just
Speaker 2: trying to survive, Like every day was just a survival
Speaker 2: day for me. I never looked forward to things. I
Speaker 2: was never excited about things. I was just living.
Speaker 1: And that's complex. It is just living as survival. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a word we have called anna hoidonia, which means
Speaker 1: you no longer get pleasure or joy from any of
Speaker 1: the activities that maybe have ever given you joy or
Speaker 1: would ordinarily give people joy. A beautiful day, dinner out
Speaker 1: with friends, a funny movie, whatever. It mean nothing, It's
Speaker 1: just sort of this flat, kind of gray sort of
Speaker 1: feeling around life. Anne Hedonia is something we do see
Speaker 1: people going through post traumatic stress complex post traumatic stress.
Speaker 1: It's a big part of that picture for sure.
Speaker 2: I mean and even still now I feel like that
Speaker 2: I have that because my husband's come out and look
Speaker 2: at the stars, am I I don't, So it's still there,
Speaker 2: it's yeah, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1: And at this point, Kimberly, so now you're eighteen, are
Speaker 1: you talking with anyone about what's happening? How are you
Speaker 1: getting through the days.
Speaker 2: At twenty five, I actually started writing a book with
Speaker 2: all the women in my family, my mom, my aunt,
Speaker 2: my sisters at the time, and everybody was really I
Speaker 2: wouldn't say it was a book of It was more
Speaker 2: of just us journaling and sort of getting everything out.
Speaker 2: At that time, we felt that it was healthy, but
Speaker 2: looking back, I think it was actually really an unhealthy
Speaker 2: way to process what had happened, because I think we
Speaker 2: needed to process it apart from each other and not together.
Speaker 2: And I say this because I do speak to my mom.
Speaker 2: It's different, but my mom does try, she's in therapy,
Speaker 2: she does her best. And you know, that's a very
Speaker 2: difficult thing for me because there is a split side
Speaker 2: of knowing that she was a victim as well of him. Yes,
Speaker 2: and so I do have that in my heart. That's
Speaker 2: very hard. But we soon became grouped together, and that
Speaker 2: was uncomfortable for me because I didn't feel like being
Speaker 2: grouped with my mom was fair, or being grouped with
Speaker 2: any other adult that was in my life when I
Speaker 2: was a child was fair, because even and if the
Speaker 2: same thing happened to us, they still never protected me.
Speaker 1: Correct. I agree completely with that.
Speaker 2: Yes, looking back, I know that it wasn't a healthy
Speaker 2: way to process my abuse. There's an interesting story that's
Speaker 2: not in the book. I was abused on my first
Speaker 2: Holy Communion, and my mother knew this always from the
Speaker 2: time I was fifteen. It was one of my first memories.
Speaker 2: And about two years ago she came to my house
Speaker 2: because we all wore the same communion dress, all of
Speaker 2: the siblings. So, oh, your sister asked for the communion
Speaker 2: dress for her if she ever has a daughter, which
Speaker 2: she now has. So I got them pressed, and I'm
Speaker 2: just sitting there in my head, going, are we actually
Speaker 2: having this conversation? And I sent them to her, and
Speaker 2: now you know she has them and she's so happy,
Speaker 2: and so she ever has a daughter, she'll have her
Speaker 2: communion in this dress. And I tell that story because
Speaker 2: I just think it speaks volumes of where everybody head is. Yes,
Speaker 2: I wasn't talking to my younger sister at the time.
Speaker 2: I still am not, and I sent her an email
Speaker 2: and I just said, I just want to let you
Speaker 2: know if you didn't know that something really horrific happened
Speaker 2: to me in that dress, and I don't think you
Speaker 2: want it, Can you please mail it back to me
Speaker 2: because I'd like to burn it. And I never heard
Speaker 2: back from her, and about four months later, my mom
Speaker 2: came to my house after visiting her, and she had
Speaker 2: my communion dress wrapped up in a Starbucks bag like garbage.
Speaker 2: Not that it's not garbage, but to me, it was
Speaker 2: a very significant, painful part of my life. And she
Speaker 2: just goes, oh, here's.
Speaker 1: Your thing, here's your thing.
Speaker 2: And thankfully I have an amazing husband and he burned
Speaker 2: it with me. But if I never said anything, my
Speaker 2: niece would be wearing that dress on her communion. And
Speaker 2: that same sister, when she found out I was writing
Speaker 2: the book, told me I was going to ruin all
Speaker 2: of the children's lives by doing this. And what was
Speaker 2: so ironic about that to me was over the summer,
Speaker 2: we all just happened to me in New York, and
Speaker 2: I reached out to one of my sisters, who I
Speaker 2: had talked to more than anyone, and I just said, look,
Speaker 2: my daughter really wants to see her cousins because she
Speaker 2: had grown up with them, and I said, can you
Speaker 2: please include her? This isn't fair to her. We can
Speaker 2: all go to the beach. I'm protecting her, which I
Speaker 2: would never do right now in the space I'm in now.
Speaker 2: But at that time, I just felt like she's asked
Speaker 2: me to see her cousins, and she first said absolutely,
Speaker 2: and then they all got together and they never included
Speaker 2: my daughter, And so my daughter said to me, what
Speaker 2: did I do? Mom? And that to me was such
Speaker 2: a moment for me to step back and say, I'm
Speaker 2: saving you from them.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, absolutely, And that is such a painful realization
Speaker 1: because you were doing the right things right. She loves
Speaker 1: her cousins. You wanted her to have that contact, but
Speaker 1: now she's being brought into a toxic system where the
Speaker 1: child immediately goes to is this my fault? What have
Speaker 1: I done wrong? And that you immediately detected as no,
Speaker 1: I'm not putting into a system where she's questioning herself.
Speaker 1: Your family, in some ways is so not unique in
Speaker 1: the sense of you're going to harm all these children
Speaker 1: in the family by telling the truth right, which you
Speaker 1: know could actually keep those children protected or understand.
Speaker 2: For me, it was never an option for my daughter
Speaker 2: not to know my story, because it's going to explain
Speaker 2: to her so much about me and so much about
Speaker 2: why I parented the way that I did, and why
Speaker 2: I'm not perfect, and why I get triggered and why
Speaker 2: I'm impatient or why I overreact about certain things. And
Speaker 2: that to me is the biggest gift I can give
Speaker 2: her because I can't take away.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no you can't. And I think that it
Speaker 1: is a gift for a child to know where they
Speaker 1: come from and it not all be a secret, because
Speaker 1: it can actually be even if no further sexual abuse
Speaker 1: happens to your various nieces nephews as they come up,
Speaker 1: but this story is kept from them. There is also
Speaker 1: a trauma and grief that comes from recognizing way down
Speaker 1: the line when you learn these things about your family
Speaker 1: that I believe and this is rather metaphysical for a
Speaker 1: scientific a GALSI, we do carry these in traumatic inheritances
Speaker 1: within our bodies, even if we've never become acquainted with
Speaker 1: the players. It's in there, yes, and we feel it
Speaker 1: and in some ways knowing it it makes it all fit.
Speaker 1: We don't feel crazy. It's so fascinating because the willingness
Speaker 1: of your sister to remain faithful to a fictional characterization
Speaker 1: of a family was greater than wanting to have a
Speaker 1: relationship with her lips breathing sister. Yes, Unfortunately, what we're
Speaker 1: learning from you and this is sort of the painful truth.
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to talk to breaking into generational cycles does
Speaker 1: often mean breaking ties. Yeah, because as long as people
Speaker 1: are still sort of buying into that false narrative, being
Speaker 1: near them is dangerous, especially after what you've been through,
Speaker 1: having had a history of complex trauma. Complex trauma treatment
Speaker 1: is also protecting yourself from dangerous situations. That's what you
Speaker 1: do forever, That's what you're doing. And all the pushback
Speaker 1: people say, well, I don't know family estrangement. Nah, it's
Speaker 1: going to keep someone safe, like you want to say stranger,
Speaker 1: and it's a dirty word for me, it actually happens
Speaker 1: not to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's been interesting for me. I have connected
Speaker 2: with so many amazing doctors through for all of this
Speaker 2: you included to get validation. It's sad that it's taken
Speaker 2: this long. You know, people that study this and this
Speaker 2: is what you do for a living, and to get
Speaker 2: validation that I'm doing the right thing. It's sad that
Speaker 2: it couldn't come from my family. But I'm really happy
Speaker 2: about the way that it's all happening.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're getting that. But you know, I'm
Speaker 1: sad it didn't come from my family. It almost couldn't
Speaker 1: come from your family. It goes back to that they
Speaker 1: couldn't keep you safe, and they still can't keep people safe.
Speaker 1: That doesn't just change overnight. The decks almost have to
Speaker 1: be cleared. With the family you've created with your husband,
Speaker 1: you have a daughter, the inheritance kind of gets a
Speaker 1: little cleaned up with her and she gets to go
Speaker 1: and fall in love one day and have her own family,
Speaker 1: and that will feel different. Yeah, that's how these cycles end.
Speaker 1: And I do tire of people saying we'll be sad
Speaker 1: if we end these cycles. I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: if the family earns the right to remain in that,
Speaker 1: I think very divine seat of being family. That's an
Speaker 1: earned right. It's not just a birthright being family. To
Speaker 1: be safe. We had a guest named doctor Jennifer Frida
Speaker 1: who calls it the duties of a relationship, And the
Speaker 1: foremost duty of a relationship is safety.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It is to create safety. It's to protect the vulnerabilities
Speaker 1: of another, it's to keep children safe. If people can't
Speaker 1: do those duties, I don't give it. If they're your family, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have to tell you, Kimberly, in the years I've
Speaker 1: been doing all of this, is that for some people
Speaker 1: it was literally the only path forward.
Speaker 2: I've learned a lot of just dialogue around you know,
Speaker 2: no contact and things that I didn't know existed but
Speaker 2: I was living.
Speaker 1: Yes, it has a name, no contract. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: so obvious no contact, but people like that you can
Speaker 1: actually do. Yeah, it's a thing. Yeah, absolutely, and no
Speaker 1: contact could literally describe to people just don't have contact.
Speaker 1: It's very intentional. Kimb believe no contact in a family
Speaker 1: system is rare. People will say there's at least one
Speaker 1: person and that's this I want to be in touch
Speaker 1: with me, which means I have to get the whole
Speaker 1: family blob coming along. It's not that common, and so
Speaker 1: when people do finally pull it off, it works. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you what's very interesting sort of a sideline here.
Speaker 1: I was looking at a group of people's data a
Speaker 1: few years ago. The data was collecting people all over
Speaker 1: the world, and they were asking them, what are the
Speaker 1: things that have worked best for you to help you
Speaker 1: with your narcissistic abuse. At the time I had looked
Speaker 1: at that data, the number one thing was actually no contact.
Speaker 1: It's not a strategy accessible to everyone, especially for example,
Speaker 1: if you're co parenting with someone and you have custody
Speaker 1: of a minor child, you have to stay in touch
Speaker 1: with that parent. But for people who have it as
Speaker 1: an option, you're getting away from a toxin. There's no
Speaker 1: but it has a name and it's a thing, and
Speaker 1: it's powerful, and you did it, and you're saying you
Speaker 1: notice the difference.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, one hundred percent. And my husband had a
Speaker 2: very normal life. Don't ask me how we wound up together.
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure, but I'll say, if you feel
Speaker 2: like you want to call your dad, I said, I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't. I feel grief around it. Brief yes, which
Speaker 2: was surprising to me that I felt as much grief
Speaker 2: as I did, because when I finished the book and
Speaker 2: all these amazing things happening with it, and how proud
Speaker 2: I am of just the outcome of it and how
Speaker 2: it's written, and how many people I know it's going
Speaker 2: to help. You want to call your family, that's who
Speaker 2: you want to call and tell them look at this
Speaker 2: thing I did. But I couldn't do that because they
Speaker 2: wouldn't have been proud of me, and it would have
Speaker 2: been the same conversation we've been having my entire life.
Speaker 2: The one thing that I will say that is, I think,
Speaker 2: really difficult when you do have a narcissistic parent, especially
Speaker 2: one that's not supportive of you. Because my father was
Speaker 2: never anything that I did. Everything was the wrong thing.
Speaker 2: I would dance with Alvin Alli for years. And it's
Speaker 2: really interesting because I was sending my book out to
Speaker 2: somebody yesterday, and as I was mailing it and putting
Speaker 2: it together, I heard my dad's voice in my head
Speaker 2: back when I was in my twenties and I had
Speaker 2: to live with him for a very short period of time.
Speaker 2: And I was mailing my headshot and resume out to everybody,
Speaker 2: and I remember my dad walking in and looking at
Speaker 2: me and going to waste of time. As I was
Speaker 2: mailing at my book, I just, you know, had this
Speaker 2: moment where I just broke down and I just thought, well,
Speaker 2: not only were you wrong, so wrong about my career
Speaker 2: besides this, but now I wrote about it. You know.
Speaker 1: It's what's so interesting is that narcissistic parents are dream killers, right,
Speaker 1: and you have to have Is that really a thing?
Speaker 1: One hundred thing?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: Because what it means, then, Kimberly, is you are exerting
Speaker 1: an identity and a process outside of that narcissistic parent.
Speaker 1: Because of them, they sort of subjugate the identity of
Speaker 1: everyone around them. Children are an extension of them, and
Speaker 1: so you sort of exist in their service, right, So
Speaker 1: if you have a need outside of them, they resent that.
Speaker 1: But it's the ultimate and arrogance if you think you're
Speaker 1: going to go do your own thing. But it also
Speaker 1: brings up their insecurity. At the core of the narcissistic
Speaker 1: person is deep, deep insecurity. So my guess is he
Speaker 1: probably had much more grandiose visions for himself, none of
Speaker 1: which happened, correct, But even the sense of it's the
Speaker 1: I'm going to make you feel as small as I feel.
Speaker 1: So it's a waste of time when they see the
Speaker 1: pictures going out, that dream killing element unless the dream
Speaker 1: is fully aligned with what the parent wants. Because sometimes
Speaker 1: you'll hear like the stage parents, who was like, you
Speaker 1: have to go to all the auditions, But then they'll
Speaker 1: criticize the child mercilessly as they go through the process.
Speaker 1: No one wins at this. So what you're describing there
Speaker 1: is on point, but so too is the grief, and
Speaker 1: I think people are struggling. I want to go no contact.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be relieved. I am relieved, but the
Speaker 1: wave of grief can be quite astonishing, because not only
Speaker 1: is it a painful reminder that they didn't protect you,
Speaker 1: every child craves that attachment and connection to a loving
Speaker 1: parental figure or figures and recognizing that's never going to
Speaker 1: have them. And it's not about the father, the man
Speaker 1: you've long since given up on. But it's the symbol,
Speaker 1: it's the thing, it's the safety, it's the primal need.
Speaker 1: It's the grief that that can't happen.
Speaker 2: It's a big grief completely. And it's interesting because I
Speaker 2: went no contact with my dad a few years back
Speaker 2: for a short period of time. When I did it
Speaker 2: the first time, my sister called me and said, I
Speaker 2: didn't even say hello, I don't think And she said, I, well,
Speaker 2: I know you're not talking to Dad, and I hope
Speaker 2: you're okay with the fact that he's second he's probably
Speaker 2: gonna die, and are you happy with like the last
Speaker 2: conversation you had with him? And I just thought, God,
Speaker 2: this family's so fucked up.
Speaker 1: It is the manipulativeness to keep a person on the
Speaker 1: hook the person's dying. Is this what you want your
Speaker 1: last conversation to be and you're thinking yourself, I had
Speaker 1: that lost conversation a long time ago.
Speaker 2: Twenty years ago. Yeah, and you know, we'll be out
Speaker 2: to dinner years ago and he has all of my
Speaker 2: stunts in his phone, so he'll show the waiter, he'll
Speaker 2: show everybody, look, my daughter doubles ABC and then he'll say,
Speaker 2: you know, she used to be a gymast. She was
Speaker 2: never very good. It's so interesting because from the outside world,
Speaker 2: my father is this incredible human. Everybody loves my father.
Speaker 2: He does all of this stuff for the poor. He
Speaker 2: does everything that he doesn't do for his family, he
Speaker 2: does for the outside world. So if you're my father's friend,
Speaker 2: they'll tell you he is the best guy on the planet.
Speaker 1: It's actually something we call communal narcissism, which is a
Speaker 1: form of narcissism where the narcissistic person gets their sense
Speaker 1: of validation by actually doing these things for other people. So,
Speaker 1: whereas narcissitt to be people in general just want people
Speaker 1: to show up and tell them they're great, or they
Speaker 1: walk around proclaiming their greatness, these are folks who do
Speaker 1: things that look nice, so nobody picks it up that
Speaker 1: way until you realize, actually, this is a terrible person
Speaker 1: who is unempathic and entitled and arrogant and all these things.
Speaker 1: They keep doing these things, but the payout on it
Speaker 1: it is transactional. You need to praise the heck out
Speaker 1: of them. But a person who's getting what they want
Speaker 1: may praise them. Okay, whatever you've done for me, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. He's so great. But it's also
Speaker 1: that dynamic of your grandfather. He's such a great guy.
Speaker 1: He's such a great guy. So you're in these environments where,
Speaker 1: in a way, these are all very transactional relationships. It's
Speaker 1: like people are buying like a really cheap and dirty
Speaker 1: version of someone saying, oh, they're great because they helped
Speaker 1: me out. They're great because they were nice to me once.
Speaker 1: And you're seeing that parallel process which doesn't feel good.
Speaker 2: No. Yeah, and with men, especially.
Speaker 1: With men, yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you then you go into adulthood. How did you
Speaker 1: get into the stunt world. There's no like stunt school
Speaker 1: or stunt application.
Speaker 2: And a lot of people that I was performing with
Speaker 2: were doing it, and so funny enough, they said, well
Speaker 2: send your resume to this guy. He's you know, the
Speaker 2: biggest guy in New York and like an agent called
Speaker 2: me a coordinator. Yeah, And he called me a week
Speaker 2: later and I was on a movie doubling for Uma Thurman.
Speaker 2: And that was my first film and I never stopped
Speaker 2: working since. Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was your process of healing successfully working twenty
Speaker 1: years in this industry? How was your healing process unfolding
Speaker 1: in parallel to doing this work and stunts.
Speaker 2: I think part of it was sadly, I was finally
Speaker 2: happy that my family was proud of me and that
Speaker 2: I was doing something that mattered to them, because I
Speaker 2: never mattered to them.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like there was a complex mix of emotions.
Speaker 1: There was a gratification in a way that I'm finally
Speaker 1: being seen, Yeah, and not because I'm dramatic, but because
Speaker 1: I'm succeeding. But there's a sadness at being seen, because
Speaker 1: all that any of us ever want is just to
Speaker 1: be seen for us, not because we're doing something that's
Speaker 1: sort of spectacular, but simply because we are.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And also that I was really good at it, yeah,
Speaker 2: And so that felt really good to just be good
Speaker 2: at something and for people to recognize that and tell
Speaker 2: me that I'm really good and big actors to put
Speaker 2: me in their contracts and want me there because I
Speaker 2: was good and getting this external validation from everybody but
Speaker 2: my family was something I think that I really needed.
Speaker 1: It helps a lot, and there's also a sense of
Speaker 1: agency of I can go out and do this thing.
Speaker 1: I'm good at this thing, feeling good at something, because
Speaker 1: going through complex trauma and going through narcissistic abuse is
Speaker 1: all about invalidation of yourself, gaslighting yourself, being riddled with
Speaker 1: self doubt. You really can't have self doubt if you're
Speaker 1: a stunt person because you've got to do things kind
Speaker 1: of perfectly. There's a precision, and you can't have self doubt.
Speaker 2: No, And I've literally never made a mistake at work. Never.
Speaker 1: That's amazing.
Speaker 2: I mean injuries that were not my not because things happen,
Speaker 2: but I have never made a mistake.
Speaker 1: Doesn't surprise me, because I think that over control that
Speaker 1: trauma survivors often have, narcissistic abuse survivors often have, is
Speaker 1: just that you got to use that in the practice
Speaker 1: and art of what you did. A lot of people
Speaker 1: don't have that, so that could end up starting to
Speaker 1: look like OCD, that could look like other kinds of
Speaker 1: overcontrolled behaviors. It could also flip to the other side
Speaker 1: and become things like binging and purging food. It could
Speaker 1: become addiction, it could become dysregulated sexuality. Like we could
Speaker 1: see it play out both ways.
Speaker 2: I think there was always something in me, which is
Speaker 2: why I name the book Glimmer. That was just although
Speaker 2: all of these horrific things had happened to me, that
Speaker 2: I knew that I was here for a higher purpose
Speaker 2: and I couldn't make sense of the pain if there
Speaker 2: was a purpose for the pain. And I always felt
Speaker 2: like my purpose was to help people, because if I don't,
Speaker 2: then what was it? Awful?
Speaker 1: Right to find the meaning and the purpose and the
Speaker 1: suffering is the way to come out the other side,
Speaker 1: because without that, the suffering will swallow you up, and
Speaker 1: it does swallow many people up. You shouldn't be here.
Speaker 1: The severity of what you endured and the lack of
Speaker 1: support you had after it happened. You are a living
Speaker 1: monument to resilience and strength because so many people don't
Speaker 1: get the support they need through mental health, or they
Speaker 1: don't give themselves permission to harness their gifts. Because I
Speaker 1: think everyone has their gifts and they don't find the
Speaker 1: meaning and purpose, and the trauma swallows them and they
Speaker 1: go into the void.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Completely. I read something where they say you're what
Speaker 2: your ancestors have been waiting for, and that's what I
Speaker 2: feel with me.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful.
Speaker 2: And I think that my aunt really tried to break
Speaker 2: the cycle, and she was shut down by the people
Speaker 2: that she trusted to tell and she wasn't able to
Speaker 2: fulfill our story. And I really truly believe that that's
Speaker 2: what I'm here for.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. I've never heard that line, you are what
Speaker 1: your ancestors have been waiting for. It's really profound, and
Speaker 1: it's a inturger generational cycles and when they end right,
Speaker 1: and in some cases in your family, they may be
Speaker 1: continuing because some of your family members don't want to
Speaker 1: see it.
Speaker 2: And you have to be willing to let go of
Speaker 2: what's pulling you back. Like a friend said to me, Kim,
Speaker 2: it's like you have one leg over the hill, but
Speaker 2: you're letting your family still tug on your other leg.
Speaker 2: You've got to let them go so that you can
Speaker 2: get over the hill right right, which is exactly what
Speaker 2: I needed to do. It's exactly right because staying split doesn't.
Speaker 1: Work in the metaphor I've often used with clients as
Speaker 1: a hot air balloon, right they I mean back in
Speaker 1: the day the car tooon. They cut the little sand
Speaker 1: bags out, but they let the weights out. But using
Speaker 1: the sandbag analogy, it is very often cutting out those
Speaker 1: toxic people and just snip, snip, snip. Balloon's not going
Speaker 1: to float. Otherwise you're just sitting in this balloon that's
Speaker 1: just sitting on the ground. There's no point but to sore.
Speaker 1: You do need to cut that stuff off, whatever it is.
Speaker 1: It's not always people. It's a whole lot of other
Speaker 1: things too that you have to be willing to do it.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it too is Unfortunately, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of therapists out there that shouldn't be therapist.
Speaker 1: Girl, you just said a mouthful.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, and I've seen a lot of them
Speaker 2: because when I didn't have money to pay for a
Speaker 2: good therapist. That's a real big problem. Because even with
Speaker 2: my mom, she has this thing in her back pocket
Speaker 2: where she's like, I've been in therapy for twenty years,
Speaker 2: So what if you're not seeing the right person, If
Speaker 2: you're not getting the right therapy, you're going to stay
Speaker 2: in the same place. You're never going to move forward.
Speaker 2: Things are never going to shift for you. And writing
Speaker 2: this book, I think it took from beginning to end
Speaker 2: about three years. Almost I've grown more than I have
Speaker 2: in my entire life. And the catalyst of all of
Speaker 2: that was my daughter.
Speaker 1: How old does she know she's a and you want
Speaker 1: her to know your story? How much does she know?
Speaker 1: And how do you envision that unfolding with her?
Speaker 2: Well, she's, thankfully, an extremely confident, amazing.
Speaker 1: It doesn't surprise me soul.
Speaker 2: And unfortunately I had to have a conversation with her
Speaker 2: earlier than I wanted to because of her being left
Speaker 2: out of the family. I had to address that with her,
Speaker 2: and I wanted to be as honest as I could
Speaker 2: with her, and I didn't want her to carry around
Speaker 2: this feeling of even if I said it's not you,
Speaker 2: it wasn't enough. And she even said to me, she said, Mommy,
Speaker 2: I want an example of what you're talking about, because
Speaker 2: something up of that school. You want an example, So
Speaker 2: I want you to give me an example. And my
Speaker 2: husband was with me, thankfully, and he just said, you
Speaker 2: know how, mommy, and Daddy's number one job is to
Speaker 2: protect you. I'm not going to apologize and she said yes,
Speaker 2: and he said, well, mommy wasn't protected when she was
Speaker 2: your age and she was really hurt. And she says, well,
Speaker 2: who hurt you, mommy? And I said Mena's dad, because
Speaker 2: that's what she calls my mom. And she said did
Speaker 2: he hurt your heart? Or did he hurt you with
Speaker 2: his hands? And I just said both, and she just
Speaker 2: hugged me and she said she was sorry, and then
Speaker 2: she walked away into a puzzle.
Speaker 1: I was chisten too. What a beautiful question, she asked, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a question most adults wouldn't think with his Did
Speaker 1: hurt your heart? Did he hurt you with his hands?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Wow, what an insightful And.
Speaker 2: I was like, check, mommy's doing something right.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, clearly, clearly. And each one of these things
Speaker 1: is building a brick in a wall of safety that
Speaker 1: she has in the world. And she securely attached to you,
Speaker 1: she securely attached to her father, yes, and every day
Speaker 1: that secure attachment is practice. When you're being open with
Speaker 1: her and she is protected, she will never be the
Speaker 1: child who not watched at the party, and that will
Speaker 1: make her confident in herself in the world. Yes, not foolhardy,
Speaker 1: but confidence.
Speaker 2: Yes. And there's something that I'm living out now, which
Speaker 2: is the truth is so easy. Why don't we say
Speaker 2: it more? And in that moment with her, and when
Speaker 2: she walked away, I said, this is exactly what I mean.
Speaker 2: It's so easy. She can take this. Of course, she's eight.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to sit there and tell her things
Speaker 2: she does not need to hear. But she needed to
Speaker 2: hear something and she needed to be validated. And I
Speaker 2: also said to her, just because people are adults does
Speaker 2: not mean that they're making the right decisions, and does
Speaker 2: not mean that they aren't caring around pain, and does
Speaker 2: not mean that their pain is not bleeding out into
Speaker 2: other people. And unfortunately, that's what's happening in Mommy's family.
Speaker 2: Mommy's family's had a lot of pain, and they're not
Speaker 2: dealing with the pain properly, and so it's coming out
Speaker 2: in other ways. And I'm sorry that you were hurt
Speaker 2: by that, because I don't want you to ever feel
Speaker 2: that that has anything to do with you.
Speaker 1: That idea of always letting children know that the pain
Speaker 1: of the adults around them is not their fault is
Speaker 1: so absolutely crucial that it also explains their behavior and
Speaker 1: them not coming around is not your fault. That's all
Speaker 1: that any child ever needs to hear. But also what
Speaker 1: I love is because this is very different than the
Speaker 1: message you got as a child was that adults are fallible,
Speaker 1: adults are flawed, adults aren't always right. You weren't told
Speaker 1: that you were like, well, adults right, where everything we're
Speaker 1: doing is right. No, we're not harming you. You're the
Speaker 1: one who's the problem. You're the one who's wrong, holding
Speaker 1: space for that idea that no, adults always don't do
Speaker 1: the right thing. We're a safe space. You can tell
Speaker 1: us it's okay, that's huge. My conversation will continue after
Speaker 1: this break. You're breaking through each of those things one
Speaker 1: at a time. But you know, why don't we tell
Speaker 1: the truth. It's so easy. Listen, You told the truth
Speaker 1: to your sister and she walked. You told the truth
Speaker 1: to other family members and they shamed and judged you.
Speaker 1: So maybe saying the words is easy. What comes back
Speaker 1: at you is not to tell the truth is actually
Speaker 1: to blast through a lot of what you believed for
Speaker 1: social relationships in your life. And I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people listen. When you become authentic, when you heal,
Speaker 1: when you push through this, your social circle gets a
Speaker 1: lot smaller.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, fast, Yes, And I like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no, I because it's a true safe place.
Speaker 1: Otherwise it's an illusion.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: It's like having a fully stock kitchen and all the
Speaker 1: boxes are empty. You're like, I'm still hungry because this
Speaker 1: actually isn't food.
Speaker 2: Yes. And I think when you step away from the
Speaker 2: family or the system that is the dysfunction, I can
Speaker 2: see things so much clearer. Yes, Yes, because when you're
Speaker 2: in it and you're having daily conversations on the phone
Speaker 2: and you're doing these things, you're still, you know, moving
Speaker 2: in that toxicity with them. So in order to really
Speaker 2: see it for what it is, you have to step
Speaker 2: away from it.
Speaker 1: Yes, And you can't see it clearly. There's no version
Speaker 1: of this, Kimberly where you see it clearly and you
Speaker 1: stay in the system. So to stay in the system
Speaker 1: means you don't see it clearly, see it clearly. Don't
Speaker 1: stay in the system. It's a dynamic system like that.
Speaker 1: And I think what people try to create is like,
Speaker 1: can't I both know it doesn't work. They're just they's
Speaker 1: two bullys and so man, a lot of people, it's
Speaker 1: just too scary.
Speaker 2: We shame people. I mean, I can't begin to tell.
Speaker 1: You how many times I've read stuff when somebody's a
Speaker 1: strange from their family, Well, what's wrong with you? How
Speaker 1: about maybe they're the most courageous person in the room
Speaker 1: that they were able to do that. But that societal
Speaker 1: level shaming of people who set that distance boundary or
Speaker 1: cut out all together. Yeah, I actually think it's remarkably
Speaker 1: courageous when people can do that.
Speaker 2: With my sisters, I realized, not quick enough, but that
Speaker 2: their trauma was bleeding out into their parenting and I
Speaker 2: was not going to have that for my daughter. And
Speaker 2: I also was not going to let her witness it either.
Speaker 2: I don't want her to have one sliver of my childhood,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately she will in the sense of this is
Speaker 2: who I am and this is where I come from.
Speaker 2: But I want her to just be around strong, loving
Speaker 2: women who have all of the best intentions and can
Speaker 2: say I'm not perfect and I'm not human and I
Speaker 2: know I need to work on this, and I do
Speaker 2: that with her, I lose my patience. I'm not a
Speaker 2: perfect mom. Mommy's had stuff, Mommy's doing her best, Mommy's
Speaker 2: gonna work harder. I'm going to try harder, which gives
Speaker 2: her the gateway to tell me when I've heard her,
Speaker 2: you know that hurt my feelings, Mommy when you said
Speaker 2: that in that way, right, right, And it gives her
Speaker 2: permission to have that conversation with me, which is so
Speaker 2: important because I never had that conversation with my parents.
Speaker 1: I'm going to do something that sometimes happens with our
Speaker 1: guests because I'm a shrink, and that's how I hear things.
Speaker 1: Is you When you were saying what you just said,
Speaker 1: you were saying the things you want to tell your daughter,
Speaker 1: And one of the things you said is I'm not human.
Speaker 2: Oh I'm not human. I did say that I'm doing
Speaker 2: a lot of inner child.
Speaker 1: Work, and it's great. That's great.
Speaker 2: And she's probably going to be really mad at me
Speaker 2: for saying that. Why because I was very disconnected with
Speaker 2: her for a long time. I saw us as two people.
Speaker 2: I saw her as the victim, as the person who
Speaker 2: didn't do anything. Why didn't you speak up? Why weren't
Speaker 2: you strong enough? I blamed her, I put the blame
Speaker 2: on her.
Speaker 1: I'm not human again, And through.
Speaker 2: My work that I've been doing on myself, I have
Speaker 2: reconnected with her and feel finally that we're living in
Speaker 2: the same body, because I didn't realize how much we
Speaker 2: actually weren't. So I literally have a picture of her
Speaker 2: on my mirror and I talk to her, and I
Speaker 2: can see when I put a picture of myself as
Speaker 2: my daughter's age and a picture of my daughter next
Speaker 2: to each other, there is this pain behind my eyes
Speaker 2: that my daughter doesn't have.
Speaker 1: That has to be such a profound feeling, grief for
Speaker 1: your inner child, the joy for your own child, and
Speaker 1: the wish for the child you were that she should
Speaker 1: have never had had that pain behind her eyes.
Speaker 2: And I think when you come from a strong survivor
Speaker 2: space where you want to be this strong survivor, I
Speaker 2: often did this thing in my head where I was said,
Speaker 2: you're fine, always trying to power through it or not
Speaker 2: make her relevant enough, when truly she survived the worst
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: She did, She did, she did, She carried that burden.
Speaker 1: That integration becomes so important in that attunement so we
Speaker 1: can all be in one body, yeah, right, Because it's
Speaker 1: the more we dissociate that stuff out, the more, it
Speaker 1: can actually command us and control us and pull us away.
Speaker 1: But you said it's okay to make mistakes. You want
Speaker 1: to teach your daughter it's okay to make mistakes. That
Speaker 1: pressure to not because the idea is if I don't
Speaker 1: make any mistakes, if I'm perfect, then I don't have
Speaker 1: to be plagued by that self blame and self doubt.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I think there is so much shame around
Speaker 2: it that I always felt I didn't have, which I've
Speaker 2: learned that I have a lot of. I don't know
Speaker 2: what it is about that, the shame part that feels
Speaker 2: so vulnerable, I guess because I think I felt like
Speaker 2: I shouldn't have shame because it wasn't my fault. But
Speaker 2: it just doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1: No, it doesn't work that way. Another thing i'd love
Speaker 1: to hear, first of all, and talk a little about
Speaker 1: your husband, because one thing as I was reading your books, like,
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, how is Kimberly ever going to enter
Speaker 1: into healthy adult relationships? Your husband sounds amazing, by the way,
Speaker 1: absolutely amazing is and your relationship with him together the
Speaker 1: two of you sound amazing. Was it always healthy?
Speaker 2: Relately?
Speaker 1: Like, did you just go through and meet healthy man.
Speaker 2: Like lucky. I'm alive. God. No, no, I was married
Speaker 2: before my husband. Oh okay, okay, and I married my
Speaker 2: father in a very similar way, and it was very
Speaker 2: unhealthy and he was a good person. He was a
Speaker 2: survivor as well, and so we kind of bonded on that.
Speaker 2: And I think the moment that he said to me,
Speaker 2: I think we should start trying to have kids, that
Speaker 2: was like my dead stop and I divorce them.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right. I would almost call that a psychological
Speaker 1: palate cleansor let's just get that one out of the
Speaker 1: way so you can go into healthier relationships. Unfortunately, sometimes
Speaker 1: people get stuck in those. You know. The other thing
Speaker 1: I want to say about your husband those One thing
Speaker 1: I love about the relationship the two of you've created
Speaker 1: is you have been through something, You've experienced that complex
Speaker 1: relational trauma, and he protects your vulnerabilities, he never weaponizes them.
Speaker 1: That's an important part of that survivorship is that for
Speaker 1: many people who've been through any form of especially familial trauma,
Speaker 1: is that they feel protected that once someone learns that
Speaker 1: about them, that that's never thrown in their face, that
Speaker 1: they're never called dramatic or any of these things. But
Speaker 1: rather this is the most fragile, vulnerable part of this
Speaker 1: person in the role of loving them, the duties of
Speaker 1: the relationship and the role of loving them. I must
Speaker 1: protect this above all else. And so even in the
Speaker 1: worst fight that a person has the mindfulness to keep
Speaker 1: the reins back to say, We'll have our arguments. People
Speaker 1: who love each other argue, but that absolutely not I
Speaker 1: love this person. What I really love about that story, Kimberly,
Speaker 1: is that many people who go through severe intrafamilial sexual
Speaker 1: trauma feel that they'll never have a normal, healthy relationship.
Speaker 1: Absolutely they can. You didn't land there at the first time,
Speaker 1: but you got there. Were there other relationships where you
Speaker 1: saw some of these themes that you would relate to
Speaker 1: your trauma through.
Speaker 2: My twenties, throughout your twenties. Yeah, it was one after
Speaker 2: another after another. Yeah. I think the really difficult thing
Speaker 2: when you've been abused is your idea of intimacy. Well,
Speaker 2: there is no intimacy because you don't know what that is.
Speaker 2: So you have to teach that to yourself. And that's
Speaker 2: a real bitch. And I still feel like I struggle
Speaker 2: with that still to this day. I don't think that's
Speaker 2: something that will ever go away. I think when you're
Speaker 2: introduced to sex at an age that is just unfathomable,
Speaker 2: you can't comprehend what it's supposed to be. And I
Speaker 2: went through that period of time for a long time.
Speaker 1: I know you had a journey with more than a
Speaker 1: few bad therapists, but as was therapy a useful part
Speaker 1: of the experience of sort of getting into a healthier
Speaker 1: sense of your body sexually or did that come to
Speaker 1: you in other ways?
Speaker 2: My therapist that I got in my late twenties that
Speaker 2: I still have, she really was a life changer for
Speaker 2: me and really helped me. She's the one who really
Speaker 2: was a catalyst for my divorce, kind of really shed
Speaker 2: the light on me and sort of what I was
Speaker 2: going through and what was healthy for me and not
Speaker 2: healthy for me. But there needs to be something done
Speaker 2: for people that don't have that, and I have. You
Speaker 2: know someone in my family right now who just came
Speaker 2: forward to me who my grandfather abused, and she's in
Speaker 2: her forties and she is a mess. You know, as
Speaker 2: far as she wants to heal and she wants to
Speaker 2: get better, she doesn't necessarily have all of the means
Speaker 2: to do so. And so it's like, where did these
Speaker 2: people go that sort of fall through the cracks, that
Speaker 2: have been through something so traumatic and don't have the
Speaker 2: means to get really good therapy, and what does that
Speaker 2: look like? And I remember seeing a trauma therapist and
Speaker 2: this was actually quite recently. I went to see this
Speaker 2: person with my mother. Doctor Matte and doctor Bruce Perry
Speaker 2: and doctor Richard Schwartz are all doctors who I've been
Speaker 2: working with, and so I asked her if she knew
Speaker 2: of any of them, and she goes, no, I haven't
Speaker 2: heard the names. And I thought to myself, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: you're not a trauma therapist because they're this is what
Speaker 2: they did, this is what they do. Are not a doctor.
Speaker 2: But I think that that's something that is becoming more
Speaker 2: available because of the Internet. Like I was able to
Speaker 2: say to my cousin, go to YouTube and put in
Speaker 2: doctor Gilbormate and just listen to his videos and how
Speaker 2: he feels about trauma and how it resonates in your body.
Speaker 2: And I'm watching it live out in real time with
Speaker 2: my mother, her siblings. You know. I get a phone
Speaker 2: call a few months ago, this aunt beat up this uncle.
Speaker 2: You know their siblings and they're in their seventies, and
Speaker 2: my mom's like, can you believe it? Yes, I absolutely
Speaker 2: can believe it.
Speaker 1: Can believe. I don't see how any other way it
Speaker 1: would go if these people have never had the proper
Speaker 1: intervention as to how are we going to get this
Speaker 1: reached out? It's a big, big nut.
Speaker 2: To crack, right, Yes, but what you're doing here is huge.
Speaker 2: You know, I follow you on Instagram and just listening
Speaker 2: to you explain things when you live it, but you
Speaker 2: don't have the names for it, so it feels like
Speaker 2: you're the only one who's living it. So it feels
Speaker 2: very lonely, confusing all these things. So to have that
Speaker 2: and to have you spell it out is so helpful,
Speaker 2: and I think that that's something that is really such
Speaker 2: a useful tool.
Speaker 1: No, I appreciate that, and I think takes me back
Speaker 1: to something you said, because I think it's just an
Speaker 1: important thing for people to hear that idea that family
Speaker 1: gatherings and families that have this, that there is these
Speaker 1: intergenerational cycles is actually where this often does happen. It
Speaker 1: could be a grandparent, could be an aunt or uncle,
Speaker 1: It could be an older cousin somebody are not usually seeing,
Speaker 1: and then they come into these family gatherings and then
Speaker 1: there's a lot of chaos. Right. So it's funny we
Speaker 1: say this around pool safety. Right. If you were ever
Speaker 1: at a large gathering of people and there's a swimming
Speaker 1: pool and you've got a child, the only responsibility you
Speaker 1: have that day is to keep eyes on your child.
Speaker 1: It's the same thing. And I think some people say, well,
Speaker 1: that's going to seem strange. So if that seems strange,
Speaker 1: you're protecting your child. And it doesn't mean you don't
Speaker 1: leave the house, but it does mean that once you
Speaker 1: bring a child into the world, you have a singular
Speaker 1: role in the world, and that is to keep that
Speaker 1: child safe in every means that is within your power.
Speaker 1: And I think that's one thing I've very very much
Speaker 1: learned from your story, that those kinds of awarenesses in
Speaker 1: large groups. I think it's a really important thing. You
Speaker 1: had pointed out what has worked for you in terms of.
Speaker 2: Healing, journaling, journaling, writing, writing your feelings down, validating yourself
Speaker 2: being with someone who validates you. I mean my husband,
Speaker 2: it took him time with me. It's not like we
Speaker 2: got together and it was this perfect thing. When we
Speaker 2: first got together, I was still having a lot of
Speaker 2: flashbacks and body memories and I had to sort of
Speaker 2: have that conversation with him, Okay, during this time, I
Speaker 2: might just need to be alone. So we got really
Speaker 2: good at him saying Okay, do you need me here
Speaker 2: or do you need to be alone? Do you want
Speaker 2: me to walk out of the room, Like what do
Speaker 2: you need right now? And from the moment he heard
Speaker 2: my story, he always was confused as to why I
Speaker 2: talk to my family. That was always his question, how
Speaker 2: can you talk to your parents? How do you talk
Speaker 2: to your parents? But he never not supported every decision
Speaker 2: that I made and every step that I made to
Speaker 2: get where I am now. So he never belittled me
Speaker 2: for talking to my mom, or my dad or my siblings,
Speaker 2: and he would come with me and support me. And
Speaker 2: what I soon realized is that I needed him around
Speaker 2: when I was around my family, which made me realize
Speaker 2: that I wasn't safe around my family because I needed
Speaker 2: somebody safe with me to feel safe around my family.
Speaker 2: And he let me figure that out on my own,
Speaker 2: and that was necessary because I wouldn't have been able
Speaker 2: to do it with him, telling me to do it,
Speaker 2: because I would have resented and felt like he told
Speaker 2: me to do this thing, and I did this thing.
Speaker 2: I had to learn it on my own. I think
Speaker 2: you just have to be really forgiving of your self.
Speaker 2: And it's such a cliche to say it's not your fault.
Speaker 2: Everyone always says that it's so easy to say that.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean you don't feel like it's your fault.
Speaker 1: Correct, correct exactly, And you know it's a to never
Speaker 1: spend time with anyone who wants to, you know, magnify
Speaker 1: that belief that well, of course it was your fault
Speaker 1: or why didn't you leave or whatever nonsense people come
Speaker 1: up with. But there is no magic eraser where people
Speaker 1: say this wasn't your fault.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think recognizing who isn't safe in your
Speaker 2: life on any level, and that doesn't mean, you know,
Speaker 2: sexual abuse. It just means that you leave their house
Speaker 2: and you don't feel fulfilled or you don't feel those
Speaker 2: are the people that shouldn't be in your life.
Speaker 1: That's a huge one. And I think that when we
Speaker 1: say safety, I do think a lot of people do
Speaker 1: think of frank abuse like, well they didn't hit me,
Speaker 1: or abuse, I said no, no, no, no, exactly what you said.
Speaker 1: When you leave that encounter, and some people experience that
Speaker 1: is a depletion as an exhaustion as I don't feel
Speaker 1: like myself. It's almost like that you're not fully like
Speaker 1: snapped into you pay attention to that. You know, your
Speaker 1: book's remarkable. Everyone, you have to read this book. It's
Speaker 1: so good. And I'm not just saying it because Kimberly
Speaker 1: is here, because if Kimberly said I'm not coming on
Speaker 1: your show, she could have easily done done. I would
Speaker 1: have been so blessed to have read this book. I
Speaker 1: think it's a great book not only for anyone who
Speaker 1: survived trauma, but who loves somebody who's been through trauma
Speaker 1: and often is not sure. How can I reach to them?
Speaker 1: How can I be there for them? How can I
Speaker 1: be present with them? I think it's also a real
Speaker 1: gift if you fall in love with someone who's experienced
Speaker 1: that or love I have a dear friend or family member.
Speaker 2: I appreciate you and just validating me and my story,
Speaker 2: and you have no idea how much it means to me.
Speaker 1: So thanks well. I appreciate you so much. Honored by
Speaker 1: your willingness to bring your story to this platform so
Speaker 1: we could talk about it. You know, people talk about
Speaker 1: trauma and it sometimes doesn't always hit the tone if
Speaker 1: you will, and I think that this is very real,
Speaker 1: it's very raw. You don't make it sound like, oh,
Speaker 1: five easy steps. There are no five easy steps. Some
Speaker 1: days are hard, some days are nightmares, some days are good.
Speaker 1: But it also doesn't mean that you don't find love.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you can't be a wonderful mother. A
Speaker 1: daughter sounds amazing. It sounds like she's inherited a lot
Speaker 1: of instincts you never got to express, and you've created safety.
Speaker 1: That's all to pay it forward one could ever hope
Speaker 1: for in this life. So again, thank you, so.
Speaker 2: Much, thank you, thank you much.
Speaker 1: Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Kimberly. First,
Speaker 1: the Crimes Against Children Research Center reports that one in
Speaker 1: five girls is a victim of child sexual abuse, and
Speaker 1: the Department of Justice reports that in ninety three percent
Speaker 1: of cases, the perpetrator is known to the child. What
Speaker 1: happened to Kimberly is unforgivable and tragically all too common.
Speaker 1: The harms of child sexual abuse reverberate throughout a person's life.
Speaker 1: Kimberly shared some of this. In her story, we see
Speaker 1: a permanent loss of trust and sense of safety in
Speaker 1: the world, impacts on her pure relationships, difficulties in school,
Speaker 1: physical harm, difficulties in adult relationships, and a wide range
Speaker 1: of psychiatric fallout, including complex post traumatic stress disorder, post
Speaker 1: traumatic stress disorder, depression, anxiety, self harm, eating disorders, and
Speaker 1: substance use. When a child is sexually abused, it changes
Speaker 1: the trajectory of their life, and when we consider that
Speaker 1: so many children are not believed, that re traumatization magnifies
Speaker 1: all of this fallout. In my next takeaway, Kimberly was
Speaker 1: incredibly honest and shared that when her grandfather died when
Speaker 1: she was eleven, her emotion was relief, and she recalled
Speaker 1: feeling dissociated during his funeral the day when people were
Speaker 1: supposed to be sad, and her family, so good at
Speaker 1: playing at appearances, did just that. But I am grateful
Speaker 1: to her for sharing her relief on that day. It
Speaker 1: is an emotion that many abuse survivors share and that
Speaker 1: can bring up internal conflict, even though it is completely
Speaker 1: normal to feel relieved when a perpetrator dies. For our
Speaker 1: next takeaway, family systems with shroud abusers and don't protect children,
Speaker 1: allow self interest and status quo to be valued over
Speaker 1: the safety of children. She cited doctor Gabramatte, who noted
Speaker 1: that her deeper trauma, above and beyond the abuse, was
Speaker 1: not being protected. In Kimberly's case, it was a complex
Speaker 1: web of multiple traumatized adult family members and other members
Speaker 1: of the community who benefited from their alliance with her grandfather.
Speaker 1: Silence was kept in place by fear and doctor Fried's
Speaker 1: concept of betrayal blindness to see it meant the system
Speaker 1: came crashing down. Another punishment that these kinds of systems
Speaker 1: uses ostracism and they will close out anyone who dares
Speaker 1: speak out. Kimberly took back some of that power by
Speaker 1: going no contact, but it took her a long time
Speaker 1: to get there. For other systems out there, this operates
Speaker 1: in different ways, but the message is often clear, especially
Speaker 1: to children. If you speak out, the fallout could be
Speaker 1: worse than what you are enduring. In this next takeaway,
Speaker 1: while Kimberly's family system was more congruent with a psychopathic
Speaker 1: family system, a remorseless, brutalizing, and abusive patriarch in the
Speaker 1: form of her grandfather. These kinds of harmful systems often
Speaker 1: have a truth teller within the system. It was once
Speaker 1: her aunt, and in the next generation it was Kimberly,
Speaker 1: and by speaking the truth of the family system, she
Speaker 1: was labeled a drama queen, which is a form of
Speaker 1: gaslighting designed to silence and pathologize women and girls who
Speaker 1: see it. Clearly. In my next takeaway, going back to
Speaker 1: betrayal blindness again, Kimberly experienced intergenerational betrayal blindness. Her story
Speaker 1: of the communion dress is a clear example of that.
Speaker 1: Their lack of acknowledgment of what had happened and her
Speaker 1: family engaging in behaviors that revealed that unseeing of what
Speaker 1: had happened. However, in this case, when betrayal blindness is
Speaker 1: happening within multiple people, it is deeply invalidating and magnified
Speaker 1: Kimberly's pain and sense of distance from her family. For
Speaker 1: our next takeaway, there is a day when a survivor
Speaker 1: of intrafamilial abuse has to protect their own children. The
Speaker 1: catalyst for this can come in many ways. In Kimberly's case,
Speaker 1: it was the exclusion of her daughter from an activity
Speaker 1: with cousins. Many survivors who were not protected face a
Speaker 1: call to action when it is their own child. There
Speaker 1: is also a recognition of how different a trauma survivor's
Speaker 1: experience may be from their own childs. Kimberly captured this
Speaker 1: eloquently when she talked about the pain behind my eyes
Speaker 1: that my daughter does not have. These intergenerational cycles can
Speaker 1: be broken, but many generations often have to suffer to
Speaker 1: get there. For our next takeaway, Even though Kimberly had
Speaker 1: been making the choices to distance and disengage from her family,
Speaker 1: there are the ongoing griefs that often never quite dissipate.
Speaker 1: As she started achieving her success professionally in writing her book,
Speaker 1: she just wanted her family's validation and pride. Family is
Speaker 1: often the first place many people want to share the
Speaker 1: successes we are eternally that child holding up the good
Speaker 1: grade or picture we drew and wanting to be seen.
Speaker 1: Even when people have mentally quit their families, that emotional
Speaker 1: and primal pullback can remain, and working it through is
Speaker 1: the hard work of healing from trauma. As Kimberly put it,
Speaker 1: she says, we must let go of what is pulling
Speaker 1: us back and in our last takeaway a recap of
Speaker 1: what Kimberly said worked for her is an overview of
Speaker 1: what works in healing from any form of trauma. A
Speaker 1: good therapist whom you trust and who gets it, journaling
Speaker 1: and writing, being with people who validate you and protect you,
Speaker 1: and self forgiveness. No matter how severe the trauma, there
Speaker 1: can be a path forward, but it is often a
Speaker 1: circuitous and painful process to get there.