WEBVTT - Surviving Generational Abuse with Kimberly Shannon Murphy 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:04.320 If you've watched an action movie featuring a tall actress 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:08.600 in the last twenty years, then you have seen Kimberly 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:13.880 Shannon Murphy. One of Hollywood's top stunt women, Kimberly is 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:17.800 the go to stunt double for Cameron Diaz, Uma Thurman, 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:23.680 Sandra Bullock, Angelina, Jolee Blake, Lively, Sharon Stone, and Moore. 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:29.640 Her day job sounds terrifying, jumping off buildings, crashing cars, 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:34.640 but it pales in comparison to Kimberly's real life childhood. 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:40.320 Starting when she was just two years old, Kimberly experienced 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:46.239 severe childhood sexual abuse by a family member. Kimberly's extraordinary 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:51.920 and heartbreaking new memoir Glimmer, a story of survival, hope, 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:58.880 and healing, reveals that the abuse went back generations. Her mother, aunt, 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:03.360 and numerous other women in her family were also preyed upon. 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:09.600 In this emotional and eye opening episode of Navigating Narcissism, 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:15.320 Kimberly bravely shares the devastation of suffering silently and the 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:19.440 bold moves she's making to break the cycle for her daughter. 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:25.560 From Red Table Talk Podcasts and iHeartMedia, I'm Doctor Romney 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:30.920 and this is Navigating Narcissism. This podcast should not be 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:33.840 used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:39.000 Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:43.160 or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:48.600 medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:53.880 discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:58.080 be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:02.440 are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.880 in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:12.240 Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. Kimberly, I 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:16.760 had the opportunity to read your book, and it's so powerful. 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:22.400 Your experience of intergenerational child sexual abuse and trauma is 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:26.560 it happens so much more than people know, and it's 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.640 not talked about enough. One of those conversations that still 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.400 remains in the shadows, which is another reason your book 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:36.480 is so powerful. These conversations are so important on navigating narcissism. 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.160 We're really focused on the survivor and to that end, 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:45.000 because it's your experience, I want you to begin sharing 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:46.880 it with us wherever you want to begin it. 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:51.320 Okay, Well, The abuse started probably around two or three 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:55.840 with my grandfather, my mother's father, and ended when he 0:02:55.880 --> 0:03:00.919 died when I was eleven. The entire time, four times 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:05.560 a week, so it was a constant thing. My grandmother 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:10.080 was complicit and was very aware of what was going 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.640 on and didn't do anything about it. My mother was 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:18.000 also a victim, and some of her siblings, and I'm 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.839 sure all of her siblings. That's what I came into 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:25.240 the world knowing. I didn't know any different. I just 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:27.880 thought that that's how things were done. 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:32.080 Yeah, So, as you experienced a nine continuous years of 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.640 sexual abuse perpetrated by your grandfather, did anyone in your 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.280 family speak out about what he was doing. 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:43.200 My aunt tried in the fifties, my mother's sister, which 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:45.680 is who I dedicate the book to, because she was 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.360 probably the reason I'm sitting here right now. She gave 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.640 me so much strength to do this. She was a 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:56.080 phenomenal writer and wanted to write a book herself so badly. 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.400 She died of Alzheimer's, but she told on him when 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.760 she was nine yearyears old. Oh, and it was brought 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.360 to the family's attention and he denied it, and that 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:07.640 was it. And everything went on. 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:09.720 What happened to her within the family. 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:12.600 The abuse stopped once she told on him with her, 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:14.760 but continued on with others. 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.360 Continued on with others. It was denied. How is your 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:20.960 grandfather regarded by your family? 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:26.160 Amazing? He was amazing, Yes, the best person on the planet. 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:30.160 Everybody loved him. He was successful in the eyes of 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:34.680 he made money, he supported his family. During that time 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:39.120 of that generation, it was very much respect your elders. 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:42.760 What they say goes. You don't ask questions. This is 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:46.560 how things are done. And so I didn't. 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:48.920 Of course, I mean you couldn't. Yes, it's not even 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:50.679 that you didn't. I think it's you couldn't. 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:51.080 Yes. 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.400 This person was that you was so valued. Your grandmother 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.480 was complicit. She knew it. Others knew it, Yes, because 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:02.800 they were abused and for a variety of reasons, had 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:07.200 to remain completely unseeing or unacknowledging of it, and having 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:11.320 to know that another generation of children were being perpetrated against. 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:15.360 So by cultivating that persona it's part of the larger 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.279 concept of grooming right because then it gives him sort 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:23.200 of free access to everybody because he's implicitly trusted by 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:27.560 everybody completely, and it completely silences all of the people 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.799 who are perpetrated against and since he was choosing miners, 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.839 they are already going to be silenced by virtue of 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.920 being miners exactly. So, from the age of two to eleven, 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.479 the entire period you were abused until he died, did 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:41.839 you ever tell anyone about what was happening. 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.880 I didn't feel like there was any safe adults around me, 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:51.080 and even your aunt because I didn't know at the 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.839 time about her. I didn't find out until later that 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:56.760 she was abused and she had come forward. I didn't 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:01.440 know any of this information, so I was terrified for 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.159 my life. Yeah, he made it very clear that if 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:07.039 I ever said anything that he would kill me. 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.560 So that's it. You were effectively imprisoned in silence. When 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:15.279 you were taken in for pediatric examinations, was it ever 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.799 noticed there, because there are sometimes telltale signs of sexual 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:19.799 abuse in children. 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:22.760 He gave me her bees when I was eight, and 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.239 that was sort of swept under the rug as well. 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.040 I was taken to the doctor, but it was not 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.200 accepted that that's what it was, and so I was 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:32.280 never given medicine for it. 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.840 So the doctor knew it. Doctor says something, and the 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.120 unwillingness to acknowledge it meant that you also went untreated 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:42.440 for an illness. Yeah, Kimberly, how was school going for you? 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.400 I didn't do well in school. It didn't feel important 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:49.520 to me. I felt like I had this thing that 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.920 was happening in my life, and going to school and 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:57.960 learning math was to me. I was like, Okay, but 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.719 I have this thing that I knew in my heart 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.479 wasn't right because it didn't feel right even though everyone 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.919 around me wasn't doing anything about it. I've come to 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.920 become good friends with doctor Matte through all of this, 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:16.120 and he said something to me which really resonated with me. 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:19.680 He said, your primary trauma was not the abuse. Your 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:23.440 primary trauma was you never had adult support, because if 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:25.440 you did, the trauma would have never happened in the 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:25.960 first place. 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.160 Yes, or if it did happen even once, it would 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.119 have been validated. I couldn't agree with that more because 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:34.240 for a child to not have the sense that any 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.680 attachment needs could be met and there's no safety, that's 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:39.360 the trauma. So we see, as he put it, the 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:43.360 lack of protection. Doctor gabor Mate is a physician with 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:48.800 expertise in trauma, childhood development, addiction, and stress. So then 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.160 your grandfather dies, how did you feel at that point? 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:52.920 Very good? 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.360 Okay, Okay, thank you for saying that. Can you say more? 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:58.680 I think it's really important for people to hear that. Yeah, 0:07:58.680 --> 0:07:59.920 I got to tell you, I felt very good to 0:07:59.920 --> 0:08:00.960 you when I had that happening. 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:05.080 An Yeah, I felt like I could finally figure out 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:09.680 who I was. He was My identity didn't have one 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:11.800 without him, at least that's how it felt for me. 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:18.840 So when he died, I felt this just overwhelming sense 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.840 of who am I now? I can finally figure out 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.120 why I'm here. I knew it couldn't have been that. 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.200 I know a lot of survivors and a lot of 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:32.360 people that go through this kind of trauma when they're young. 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.240 It stifles them in a lot of ways, and it 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.640 did do that for me. But I also it gave 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:43.920 me this odd strength which I've carried with me through 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.040 my life. And so when he died, it was such 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.480 a relief to me. And I remember, you know, being 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:53.680 at a funeral and not crying and not feeling sad 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.240 and feeling just relief. 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.640 So important for people to hear that, because that kind 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.080 of real at the time of someone's passing, were told, 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.320 that's terrible if you feel that way. But I'm a 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:06.960 reader of the book, and I felt relieved. 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.440 I felt like I left my body during his funeral, 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:16.559 and I felt like I didn't want to be around 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.560 people who were praising him, which is what they were 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:21.960 all doing. They were all getting up there and telling 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.200 amazing stories about how incredible he was. And I never 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.960 knew that. Man. My mom tells these stories about these 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:31.440 amazing things that he did as a father, I didn't 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:33.960 know that man. I hated him. I never had love 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.600 for him. There was never that confusion for me, and 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.720 I think some of his children have that confusion. Yeah, 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:41.520 but I always despised him. 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.520 It's so complicated because many other people have gone through 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:48.200 this kind of interfamilial abuse don't know what emotion to have. 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:49.800 Am I supposed to hate this person, I'm supposed to 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.000 love this person. His other victims within the family system, 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:55.360 like your mother, like your aunt, and I'm sure many 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:59.240 others had to tell themselves a different story in order 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.640 to stay in the family system. If somebody spoke out, 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.880 they were going to be firmly silenced and ostracized. Most 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:05.640 people can't. 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:07.400 Tolerate that, yes, which has happened to me. 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:09.920 Yes, okay, So how much of that was ostracism and 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.040 how much of that also was free will and choice? 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.840 Because ostracism is something that happens to us. But there's 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:16.800 also a point for survivors where you say, you know 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:19.959 you don't need to kick me out. I'm out. Don't 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.000 think this is some grand punishment for me. I have 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:23.880 made the choice to step away, and I do want 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:25.440 to unpack that with you, because I think that's a 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.640 really important piece to tell. 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:29.959 We speak of a fictitious character in the book as 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:31.800 my sister. I actually have three sisters. 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:32.959 Oh okay. 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.640 My one sister, as soon as she found out I 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.719 got a book deal, completely ghosted me. Haven't talked to 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.440 her in three and a half years, and my youngest 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:45.359 sister did the same thing. My middle sister was supportive, 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:49.120 but I think she felt like she sort of had 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:52.680 to choose a side. And there were things happening within 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:56.760 our family system that as I got older and as 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.720 I started healing, I realized we're extremely toxic and that 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.600 we were all moving in this toxic way. We always 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.760 called it. But we're just ameshed is what we would say. 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.000 But there were never words then like there are now. 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.920 We're just an a meshed family. We're just a meshed Well, no, 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:14.960 we just didn't have boundaries. I don't think I learned 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:16.280 what a boundary was I was thirty. 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.720 A family system that is enmeshed is a family system 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:26.720 with very poor boundaries and unhealthy emotional sharing and expectations 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:32.520 cut through the family. There may also be lots of triangulation, gossip, 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:38.480 and breaking of confidences. Parents may share inappropriate information with children, 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.040 and when the children become adults, the parents may over 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.360 rely on their children. There is a real pressure to 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.520 keep everything in house, meaning people are discouraged from seeking 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:53.600 help outside of the family. And mesh min doesn't mean 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.520 that the family is deeply connected or committed. It really 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.280 does mean that the boundaries are so blurred that the 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:05.760 individual identities, safety, and needs of the people in the 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:07.120 family get lost. 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:12.240 So once I started really doing the work, I realized 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.840 that having certain people in my life was not healthy 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:19.400 for me, no matter how much I love them, and 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.680 that how they chose to deal with their trauma was 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.120 not how I was choosing to deal with my trauma, 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.400 and I could not have a relationship with them, one 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.319 of them being my father and one of them being 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:31.760 my sister. 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.600 That's a big moment. Yes, it's almost like you're talking 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.040 about a family mass so in mesh that it was 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:41.959 just like this toxic clump and that intergenerational cycle of 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:45.520 protecting the system but not the individuals within it seemed 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.280 to persist. There's no safety, but it's almost like strength 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.200 in numbers. Okay, where a family we're all together. And 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:52.720 I guess that was the real test. You get the 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.959 book deal, you're going to speak your truth. And that's 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.160 when they said, no, this family system has no room 0:12:58.240 --> 0:12:58.720 for truth. 0:12:58.840 --> 0:12:59.160 Correct. 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.160 You said You're sisters chose to deal with their trauma differently, 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:04.319 How did they deal with their trauma? 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:04.839 They didn't? 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.600 They didn't. Okay, so your sisters were abused to they 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:08.720 chose not to deal with them. 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:09.120 Correct. 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.240 You said you knew what was happening wasn't right. But 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:17.440 when did you recognize or realize that this was abuse? 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.880 When he died, I think I felt safer. My parents 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.600 were in a very safe space for me. Ever, my mom, 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.240 because of her abuse, just was there but not there. 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:36.200 And my dad, he was in Vietnam very young and 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:41.600 didn't come from the most functional family, and so his 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.599 idea of fatherhood is very different than my idea of fatherhood. 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:49.440 But I started having flashbacks that were debilitating for me. 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.679 I would see him, or I would uncontrollably shake and 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.040 not understand why, and then things would flash in my head, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.840 and then I'd hide in my closet. And when that 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.280 started happening, I knew that something was really wrong. My 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:06.199 mom had this encyclopedia of diseases which I looked through 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.559 every day and diagnosed myself with every sort of everything, 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.720 which now I can see was I just needed to 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:16.520 find something concrete that was wrong with me because there 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:20.240 was so much wrong that nobody was acknowledging. I cried 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.000 every day. I remember thinking, Okay, this can't be normal. 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.920 I'm a child, I'm crying every day. Why am I 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.800 crying every day? There's nothing that I can really hang 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.840 on to. Even though there was abuse going on in 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:36.240 my own home, as far as narcissistic abuse, as I've 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.960 come to know now, but then I did not because 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:41.880 for me, there was such this massive abuse that I 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.560 had endured that what was going on in my house 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:46.680 was nothing. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.600 Yeah, of course, of course, yes, it was like, oh, 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:54.320 this is just dad, Dad. Well, I mean and listen, 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:59.000 Even when there's not that other simultaneous sexual abuse happening 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.840 in a family, people still do think that this is 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.560 just dad. But their body holds that this doesn't feel good, 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.160 this doesn't feel comfortable. It's risky for me to be myself, 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.760 it's dangerous to express needs that all gets internalized. But 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:15.480 that's the only reality, you know. So I think thinking 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:18.480 that it's just dad, I think that's part and parcel 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.160 of what childhood narcissistic abuse survivors would all say, Well, 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.560 was there a point at which you did share with 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.240 someone in the family you had been abused or learned 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.520 more about these cycles of sexual abuse within your family. 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:37.760 I told my mother and she immediately left the room 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.120 in a panic and came back and said, we're going 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:43.240 to go see my therapist tomorrow. You're not going to school. 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.520 And I was like, you have a therapist. She said, yes, 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:47.800 someone hurt me too, and then she just went to bed. 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:49.920 Then the next day I was in the office with 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.480 her with her therapist, and I didn't feel safe there either, 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.560 because I, of course it's a total stranger and she 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.400 was really pushy, and I didn't even know what I 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:01.600 was experiencing. 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.600 Four years since your grandfather's died. You tell your mother, 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.240 she has you go talk to a therapist. But that 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.400 was a little bit abrupt. You really needed your mom 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.280 to not split away. It sounds like you understand enough 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.440 about trauma to understand why your mom just split away 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.120 and what her trauma response was. But her motherhood didn't 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.000 supersede that response. It never had. She had never kept 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.000 you safe. She knew this was coming, and she didn't 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:28.560 do anything about it. So that's your mom. Let's talk 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.160 about your narcissistic father. I want to understand that a 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.960 little bit. So do I Okay, well you know what yeh? 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:38.440 Come to the right place, yes, yes, So tell me 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:39.520 a little bit about dad. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.600 So he didn't believe me when my memory surfaced. 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.440 So that's just the ultimated validation. I don't know that 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:46.400 you move forward from that. 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:52.480 I think from my father, him having to admit that 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:58.160 this happened on his watch was way too overwhelming for him, 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:00.680 and so it was easier for him to just say 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:05.760 absolutely not, this couldn't happened, and the abuse happened when 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.840 the adults were all present, like this was Christmas, this 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.080 was parties, this was you know. That's why I always say, like, 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.080 know where your children are all the time, because it 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:19.480 was happening under their feet literally, and I'm not belittling 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:24.359 anybody's abuse, but it was very severe abuse. So for 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.840 a long time, it was really confusing to me. How 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.119 you know my mom never saw, or my dad or 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.080 no one ever saw. That was something that I really 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.919 struggled with because I just know now as a mom, 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:40.080 my daughter doesn't leave my sight for thirty seconds without 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:44.000 me knowing where she is. And then once I started 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.679 writing and really excavating and really pretty much having to 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:52.119 go no contact with my family, I remember that my 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:56.800 mom actually did walk in on a few occasions, and 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:57.480 I think. 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:00.840 That he had. 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.679 Grimmed her so much and she was so afraid of 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.040 him that the minute he told her to get out, 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.760 she did. And I didn't matter. 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.840 Yes, and you weren't protected. I'm so sorry, Thank you 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:20.320 for sharing that. Sorry, don't you ever say sorry for crying? Please? 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.719 You know your your condition to apologize. 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:25.840 When I know your conditions. Yes, I almost wish we 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:27.399 had kind of like a little bit of a buzzer. 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:27.600 Hi. 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.560 Sorry, we don't say I'm sorry. Navigating narcissism or navigating 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:35.760 narcissism means never having to say you're sorry. But just 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.760 like you said, you can't rank trauma higher or lower, 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.399 yours was very severe. I read the book It's very severe. 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.520 That's an objective clinical opinion that it was very severe. 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:48.439 Trauma affects everyone differently, and the way your mother and 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.400 father responded to it. Your mother witnessed it, and then 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:56.040 you have someone like your father who it's interesting how 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.480 you framed that to me, Kimberly is that he didn't 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:03.760 want it to have been happened on his watch. How 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:07.399 did he feel about your grandfather while your grandfather was alive? 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:08.440 Did he loved him? 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:09.360 He loved him. 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.199 My dad came from a very poor family, and my 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:17.720 mother's family had money, and I think that was very 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:23.000 attractive to him, and he felt like they could do 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:28.440 no wrong. And even stories I heard later on in 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.359 life that would make me question as an adult. You know, 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:34.600 my dad told me a story once, Oh, I had 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:38.760 to pick your grandfather up and talk about having inappropriate 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.119 conversations with your child at a strip club in the 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.119 middle of the day, and I'm you know, now in 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:47.840 the space I'm at now, Okay, well, no one found 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.639 that odd on the middle of a work day that 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.359 he's at a strip club and he's in his sixties. 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.399 I did a lot of digging because I needed to 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:02.080 understand how this survived and how he was able to 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.200 get away with it for so long. It was really 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.399 important to me for a long time to try to 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.760 just wrap my head around how I could have been 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.200 so hurt around so many adults that were supposed to 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:13.639 protect me. 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.920 What did your process of exploring this. 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:21.600 Reveal that everybody sucked? 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.240 Okay? You know what, though we could use all kinds 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:27.679 of fancy words like they were all enablers and you know, 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.200 intergenerational this and this is how they managed betrayal and 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.160 they couldn't process it, but it really does come down 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:36.240 to everybody sucks. All right. I want to go back 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:38.360 again to your mom, because your mom went through this, 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.200 your mom had witnessed it. You find out at the 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:44.000 age of eight, at a doctor's office you have a 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.159 sexually transmitted infection. There's only one place that could have 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:51.760 come from from another adult, And at fifteen, she runs 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.159 out of the room when you tell her, and then 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.240 she gives you a therapist, you don't know anything about, 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.160 no other place to process it. At the age of fifteen, 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.280 How did you start working through that? How did your 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:02.919 relationship with your mother evolve? 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:03.959 It didn't. 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:05.879 It didn't. I could see that. 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.520 It's hard because she was abused up until the day 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.280 before her wedding, So is her entire life. 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:15.840 Your mother was abused the day before, and then after 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:16.600 a wedding it stopped. 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.240 Yeah, I think. I mean, who knows. 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:22.720 You have a father who was in complete denial that 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:23.600 his daughter was harmed. 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.760 Here if he was sitting here, he'll say, I don't 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:27.159 know what you're talking about. I believed you. 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.000 He harmed you. Twice. He harms you on the front 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:31.800 end when he says that didn't happen, and then he 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.119 harms you again when he says, I did say that happened. 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.280 I never not believed you, is what he'll say to 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:42.400 me until and I know the day when my other 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.800 sister came forward with her memories when we were older, 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.360 in our twenties, is when I was actually validated by 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:49.720 my father. 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:52.080 Why do you think he what was what did he 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:52.520 turn on? 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:54.320 I was the drama queen in the family. 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:56.200 That's how they characterized. 0:21:56.320 --> 0:22:01.919