1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother. Nancy Guthrie 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: missing day forty tonight, an elite squad at Quantico, the 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: FBI trying to create a shoe cast. This as we 4 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: learn the FBI has returned to a particular restaurant to 5 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: reinterrogate restaurant employees. And what about the possibility of retinal 6 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: scanning of the porch guy? And this as apb All 7 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: points bulletin on a mail trying to have a full 8 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: sleeve removed, a full sleeve tattoo removed. I'm Nancy Grace. 9 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for 10 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: being with us. 11 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: The stalkers cannot help but write about their relationship with 12 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: the victim, some of the victims' families. This perpetrator had 13 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: gleaned a lot about Nancy Guthrie's life. 14 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: The perp likely has a criminal history. Maybe the stalker 15 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: did glean a lot, but what evidence did the purp. 16 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: I'm not convinced he's a stalker of Nancy Guthrie. I 17 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: think that he is a con trying to make a 18 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: quick dollar or a million. What clues did he unwittingly 19 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: leave behind. We have analyzed him from the top of 20 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: his head to the soles off his shoes. Enter Professor Forensics, 21 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University. Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, author of 22 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a 23 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: hit podcast series Body Bags. With Joseph Scott Morgan, I 24 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: was concerned about any possibility of a shoe print because 25 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: the walkway to Nancy Guthrie's home, if we could see that, 26 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: I believe is gravel. But let's start with a and 27 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: nd at z. What is a shoe cast and what 28 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: is electromagnetic lifting? 29 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 3: Okay, there's any number of ways to raise a shoe print, 30 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 3: if you will. Traditionally what we think of and we 31 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 3: still do this, Nancy. If you think about a foot 32 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 3: going into a soft malleable surface like mud, soft dirt, 33 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: even sand, you leave behind an impression, okay, and we 34 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 3: can cast that. We can put dental stone in there, 35 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: let it dry, pull it out, and you have this 36 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 3: image of the shoe print. Here we have an example, 37 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 3: for instance, of an electrostatic lift. This is completely different. 38 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 3: This is where we put down a charged sheet of 39 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 3: my laar and it actually goes over an area where 40 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 3: there is a suspected print that's generally left in soil 41 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 3: or dust. That's not really you're not able to see 42 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 3: it with the unaided eye very well. But what it 43 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 3: does is that there is a magnetic charge and that 44 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: lifts that print off of that surface and you can 45 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 3: pull it up and you can actually examine it. Here 46 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 3: we have an example of an electrostatic lift being conducted 47 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 3: just yesterday at Jacksonville State And for my money, in 48 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 3: this particular case, Nancy, I'm leaning more into the electric 49 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 3: electrostatic lift here because you know, you don't have a 50 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 3: lot of soft mud around there or soft dirt that 51 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 3: you're going through. But even if you look at that porch, Nancy, 52 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 3: look at that porch, those are tiles out there. Now, 53 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 3: there would be a myriad of prints out there. But 54 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 3: what if they went in there and actually did electrostatic 55 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 3: lifts there. And also if they can determine where the 56 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 3: point of entry is in this house, go to the 57 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: interior of the house and do those lifts there. If 58 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 3: there's an area around her bed where you've got kind 59 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 3: of a smooth, non porous or less than poor surface 60 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 3: like a ceramic tile there, which a lot of houses 61 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 3: in the southwest. Have you do that around her bed? 62 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: You see if there's any kind of weird, weird prints 63 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 3: that are there, like a and sneaker in print that's left, 64 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 3: and that is possible, you can do that. I just 65 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 3: hope it's not too late. I hope that they protected 66 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 3: that scene initially, But I got to tell you, hope's 67 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 3: deming as far as I'm concerned. 68 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: Jo Scott Morgan, don't you remember at the get go 69 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: where anybody and their little sister could walk up to 70 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: the front porch and take photos because Nanas did not 71 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: secure the scene, not once, but twice did not secure 72 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: the scene. Gules were going up and taking photos of 73 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's blood on the front porch. This is from 74 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: our forensic kold. And as a matter of fact, someone 75 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: tried to deliver a pizza to the crime scene. That's 76 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: how unprotected it was. How is that going to affect 77 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: any hope of a shee cast tremendously? 78 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 3: As you know as an attorney, Nancy, Once you take 79 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 3: that tape down, it is open season. At that point. 80 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: Any attorney worth their salt can argue, hey, look, anything 81 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 3: can be planted in there. You want to know, real 82 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 3: big evidence of this and the carelessness that was taken 83 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 3: with the scene. I'll always go back to this is 84 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 3: when you see that blood deposition on the on the 85 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 3: surface of that portico area there, Nancy, the one thing 86 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 3: you always see and you can see the purpse standing 87 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 3: on it like there, look at that, Look at that 88 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 3: standing on that mat, Nancy. We saw images of that 89 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 3: mat adjacent to the blood. They did not collect that 90 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 3: mat the first time out. You know, I sit there 91 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 3: and I think of it. Does your mind work? You know? 92 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 3: That's that's that's crime scene one oh one. Why was 93 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 3: not the mat collected at that point in time? Because 94 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 3: you have any number of things that can be transferred 95 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 3: onto that surface. I hope somebody went back and collected it. 96 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 3: But once you've taken the guard, the guardrails down. At 97 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 3: that point in time, it's open. Anybody can walk up 98 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 3: and take a photo anybody, and it can be argued 99 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 3: in court that you can plant stuff. At that point 100 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 3: in time. It is paramount that you protect that scene. 101 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 3: And there's just by virtue of the fact that you 102 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 3: did not value that matt anymore than they obviously didn't. 103 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 3: Then you're at risk here from losing valuable evidence, and 104 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 3: anybody can have access to it. Any lawyer worth their 105 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 3: salt can say, yeah, stuff was planned, they secured it, 106 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 3: they took the tape down. Lord only knows who got 107 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 3: in there. 108 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: What is an electrostatic lift? 109 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 3: Okay? So what you're doing with this sheet of my 110 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 3: law is that you're actually placing a charge on that sheet. Okay. 111 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 3: And as you place that charge on there, what happens 112 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 3: is it attracts. It attracts the underlying dust particles, lifts 113 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 3: it onto that sheet and boom, it's permanently there. 114 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 4: Okay. 115 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: So you for and this is the beauty of it, 116 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 3: for a moment, for a moment, you have frozen in 117 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 3: time that image of that shoe impression that's there. Now 118 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 3: here's the trick. Can you take that image that you've 119 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 3: frozen on that sheet, okay, and take it back and 120 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 3: compare it? 121 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:01,119 Speaker 4: Well? 122 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 3: Can you profile that footprint? Like can someone that is 123 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 3: a footprint expert say, okay, we're looking for somebody that 124 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 3: pronates superinnates. Can we categorize the shoe print? Can we say, okay, 125 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 3: this manufacturer created this sole okay, and you can say 126 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 3: whatever manufacturer you know, insert company there, all right, And 127 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: if you can begin and again, as you know, Nancy, 128 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 3: with investigations, it's a big investigative funnel. You want to 129 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 3: try to narrow, narrow, narrow, and narrow at all times. 130 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: We want to try to exclude as much stuff as 131 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 3: we more stuff. We want to try to exclude as 132 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 3: much as we possibly can to narrow our field. Can 133 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 3: they take images, for instance, of those shoes that we 134 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 3: see right here captured at the scene the steel shots. 135 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 3: Can they profile those shoes and say, okay, this is 136 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 3: the manufacture of those shoes. Automatically, you've narrowed your field. 137 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 3: And can you say if you do the electrostatic lift, 138 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 3: can you say, is it a possibility, is it a 139 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 3: possibility that that particular brand is shoe could leave this 140 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: kind of in pro Well, now you have really, you know, 141 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 3: kind of fine tuned your target area at this point 142 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 3: in time. The trick now is to find out who 143 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 3: belongs to those shoes, who was wearing those shoes at 144 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 3: that point. 145 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: I know it works in a lab, but given the 146 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: fact that the general public could go right up onto 147 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: her porch, and how many people from the Sheriff's office 148 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: were in and out of the home on the interior 149 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: I don't know that we can get this type of evidence. 150 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: There's still a chance. Straight out to Dave Mac joining 151 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: US Crime Stories investigative reporter, what can you tell me 152 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: about re emerging video of the interior of Nancy Guthrie's bedroom, 153 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: which I'd like to point out has a window right 154 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: there on ground level. You can look right into and 155 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: see her bedroom, the layout, everything, how close her bed 156 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: is to the door, the window, the works. What is this, 157 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: Dave Mac. 158 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 5: What you're seeing is when the Today Show went they 159 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 5: were trying to show the closeness of Savannah Guthrie with 160 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 5: her mom, Nancy, and showing this side of Nancy Guthrie, 161 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 5: the mom showing how she taught Savannah to make a bed, 162 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 5: and that's why you see her doing the corners there. 163 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 5: But what this was done in an effort to, you know, 164 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 5: make it more personable and connecting with their audience. But 165 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 5: what it's showing is that is her bedroom, Nancy Guthrie's bedroom, 166 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 5: and she's been in this home since the nineties. She's 167 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 5: been in the same bedroom, same layout ever since. So 168 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 5: as you pointed out, the window is right there, we're 169 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 5: looking at Savannah Guthrie's mom Nancy Guthrie in the room 170 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 5: with the bed might been pulled out of the night 171 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 5: she was kidnapped, and. 172 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: We see what she keeps on her bedside table and 173 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: more hate. Dave mac megan Kelly found this and brought 174 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: it to everyone's tension. When was that taken? When was 175 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: that shoot? From our friends at Today with missus Guthrie. 176 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 5: It was in twenty thirteen. 177 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: Because I started to say, she's getting around really well 178 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: and does not seem to have any mobility issue. But 179 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: you know, many years have passed since then. Let's take 180 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: a look at that video again, because whoever searched Savannah 181 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: Guthrie's salary in Nancy Guthrie's home address may very well 182 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: have pulled up video just like this. What clues can 183 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: we glean from this video? A lot a lot from 184 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: our friends at Today Crime Stories with Nancy Grace to 185 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: Joseph's got Morgan Professor forensics. What do you learn from this. 186 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 3: Just looking well, you look at the nature of the 187 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 3: flooring and it's really hard to kind of kind of 188 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 3: pick up and try to understand it. Has it changed 189 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 3: over that period of time? Is it a smooth, kind 190 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 3: of semi porous floor that we could go in and 191 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 3: collect anything relative to shoe prints. You know, one of 192 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 3: the things that you begin to think about is that 193 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 3: folks were saying that she was taken from her bedroom. 194 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 3: First off, I don't understand how they source that information particularly, 195 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 3: but it. 196 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: Certainly so because Savannah said it in one of her plates, 197 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: she said, my mom was taken out of her bed. 198 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 3: Well, you have to take that. You have to take 199 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 3: that and utilize that as and I'm sure that they 200 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 3: already have because if she's saying that that that's rooted 201 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 3: somewhere factually, so you're going to look at any kind 202 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 3: of physical evidence that might be associated with an outside 203 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 3: party that's there. And it could be anything from dusty 204 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 3: prints that are left behind by shoes, it could be 205 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: any kind of trace evidence, any kind of fiber evidents 206 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 3: where they're putting hands on somebody to move them around. 207 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: We also see that betspread if she still has the 208 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: same one, and obviously an MBAC would have to be 209 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: used on that. It is a porous material to get 210 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: potential DNA straight out to Bria. It's Gibbons joining us. 211 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: He is Director Operations USP, a nationwide security leading a 212 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: team of investigators that specialize in missing people and go 213 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: around the world finding them rescuing them. Particularly, he has 214 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: an expertise and extractions from Mexico. He is a former 215 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: marine and Iraqi war vet. Brif it's Gibbons. I can 216 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: learn a lot from that video, and so could anybody, 217 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: including the Purp. 218 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, certainly, and we see that the Purp would have 219 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 6: access to this readily online. 220 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 4: Uh, you know, is he looking to see? 221 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 6: Are their camera locations inside of the house, are their 222 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 6: avenues of entry or egress in that room? And all 223 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 6: this should be caveat with the fact that there was 224 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 6: an incredible amount of tension drawn to missus Guthrie with 225 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 6: Savannah's visit and the visit to that restaurant that the 226 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 6: FBI is now conducting interviews again with restaurant staff. 227 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: At some point he reaches up to dismantle or up 228 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: the door camp. I see black and gray work. 229 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 5: I can see some subtle shading on the edges. 230 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: And when he does that much is revealed. Joining us 231 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: now a special guest, Jeff Garnett, co founder Inkless Tattoo 232 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: Removal Centers, English Tattoo Removal dot Com. Jeff, I know 233 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: that you, like me, have studied carefully. The porch guy's 234 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: risked tattoo. Got a question for you, jeff Y, have 235 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: you ever been asked by a perpetrator to remove a tattoo? 236 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 7: Yes, actually we have. 237 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 8: We didn't know at the time that it was a perpetrator, 238 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 8: but in twenty twenty one, there was a shooting death 239 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 8: outside of a famous hotel in Manhattan and it. 240 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 7: Was all caught on surveillance camera. 241 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 8: The perpetrator was His picture was shown on the news 242 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 8: and everyone kept commenting on the fact that he had 243 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 8: these full tattoo sleeves. Later the following week, a detective 244 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 8: came in and questioned us because they had arrested him 245 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 8: and they found our aftercare instructions in his car. So 246 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 8: what had happened is the shooting had happened, I think 247 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 8: on a Thursday, It was all over the news the 248 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 8: following morning, and that Friday he came into one of 249 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 8: our locations trying to get his sleeves removed. So we 250 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 8: didn't know at the time, but they were able to 251 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 8: show that that was his attempt to cover up the 252 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 8: identifying marks. 253 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: So the video caught him with two full sleeves yes, wow, 254 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: okay in his car they found your after care instructions. Okay, 255 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: how long would it take to remove a full sleeve? 256 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: Jeff Garnett. 257 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 7: It takes a long time. 258 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 8: It's not an instant thing where you come in and 259 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 8: laser it and it's gone instantly. You know, we would 260 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 8: all love for the technology to get there, but we're 261 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 8: not quite there at this point, probably at least a year. 262 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 8: There are a lot of variables, different ink colors, different 263 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 8: ink saturation levels, locations on the body, how healthy someone's 264 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 8: immune system is. These are all factors that can impact it. 265 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 8: But basically, the laser is breaking the ink into microscopic 266 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 8: particles that are much easier for your immune system to remove. 267 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 8: So we're pretty much just speeding up the natural fading process. 268 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 8: When I started doing this fifteen years ago, it would 269 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 8: have easily taken three years. 270 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 4: With the newer. 271 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 8: Pico technology, it's cut that in half, but it's still 272 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 8: a year. 273 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 7: To a year and a half. 274 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: Bolo be on the lookout for a mail trying to 275 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: have two full sleeves or at least one full sleeve 276 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: out of the Catalina Hills area. Removed back to Jeff Garnett, 277 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: joining US co founder Inklis tattoo removal centers, so it 278 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: takes a long time to finally get a full sleeve removed. 279 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: Could you rush it? If someone said I've got to 280 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: have this thing off in forty eight hours, could you 281 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: do it? Is it physically possible? 282 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,479 Speaker 7: Not with laser technology. 283 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 8: The only way to do it instantly would be a 284 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 8: surgical procedure called decision or. 285 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 7: They would have to cut it out. 286 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 8: And if that was a small tattoo, they'd be able 287 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 8: to cut it out and it would be replaced with 288 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 8: a scar, and that would be done by a purgeon. 289 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 8: If you're talking about a full sleeve, it would get 290 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 8: into skin grafts. 291 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 7: It just wouldn't be possible. Laser technology can remove that, 292 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 7: but it's going to take long time. 293 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 8: Now we're assuming the has a sleeve, because you're seeing 294 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 8: that risk portion and it looks as if. 295 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 7: It's part of a much larger tattoo. Could that small 296 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 7: portion be cut out surgically? 297 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 8: Yes, it could, but there would definitely be a large 298 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 8: scar in the place. 299 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: Once you have the tattoo completely removed, are there any 300 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: traces left behind? You have an example on your net? 301 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 8: Correct, Yes, I used to have a tattoo right here 302 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 8: and there's nothing. There's no scar tissue, there's no shadow 303 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 8: or skin discoloration. 304 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 7: You know, it depends there. 305 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 8: There's certain ink colors are easier to remove than others. 306 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 8: But it looks to me like this is a black 307 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 8: tattoo on black ink tattoo, and. 308 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 7: Black ink responds really well to the laser. 309 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 8: Black absorbs the full spectrum of light from the laser, 310 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 8: so usually black ink can be removed complete. 311 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: It's a black and gray, which of course is just 312 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: variations on black. So you're absolutely correct. I'm just curious 313 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: what was the tattoo you had removed? 314 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 7: It was a bat. It was a silly bat hanging 315 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 7: upside down. 316 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: Behind me, a bat, as in the bat that flies 317 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: out of a cave and jumps in your hair and 318 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: tries to buy you. Correct, Okay, why did you have 319 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: a bat on your neck? 320 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 8: I tend to a lot of my tattoos are kind 321 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 8: of time stamps of different parts of my life. And 322 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 8: I had moved temporarily to Austin, Texas, and there's a 323 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 8: bridge in Austin that has about a million bats that 324 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 8: live underneath it, and that dust they all come flying out, 325 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 8: So that was kind of my hostin in Texas tattoo. 326 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm not a strength. I can't analyze that. I'll 327 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: just take it for what it is, for the primitive value. 328 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: But why do other people have tattoos removed? 329 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 7: Typically, there's a wide range of purposes. 330 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 8: Sometimes people get a tattoo and don't like the way 331 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 8: it came out, so they almost immediately want to get 332 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 8: rid of it. There's the stereotypical boyfriend and girlfriend get 333 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 8: each other's names and then break up. 334 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 7: The most common one is people just outgrow it. 335 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 8: You know, you get something in your team's your twenties, 336 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 8: and then in your thirties and forties, your taste change 337 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 8: and you're. 338 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 7: A different person. 339 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 8: But there also are some really more psychological reasons as well. 340 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 8: You have really said things like victims of human trafficking 341 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 8: that have property of tattoos, and that's some of the 342 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 8: things that we do pro bono for people. You have 343 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 8: radiation tattoos for people cancer survivors from when they had 344 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 8: their procedures. 345 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 7: So there really is a wide range. 346 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 8: But the majority of the clients we see got something 347 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 8: when they were younger, they've outgrown. 348 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 7: It in their tastes have changed, and they're just a 349 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 7: one person. 350 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Gray. Jeff Garnett is joining us. 351 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: He is the co founder of Inkless Tattoo Removal Centers 352 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: with multiple branches. Be on the lookout please Jeff Garnett 353 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: full sleeve removal. That said, this leads me to another process, 354 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: that process being a I used to create a ransom note. 355 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: But first before I get into that. With Christian Hammond 356 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: from Northwestern University, Dave mac, what can you tell me 357 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: about the last forty eight hours where the FBI descends 358 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: upon a restaurant to reinterrogate employees a full two days 359 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: of reinterrogation. 360 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 5: Nancy Guthrie and Savannah Guthrie went out to dinner back 361 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 5: in November when the Today Show came to town and 362 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 5: was filming Savannah back in Tucson. They went to Elcharro, 363 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 5: which is their favorite Mexican restaurant. Well, the FBI has 364 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 5: been back in interviewing employees of the restaurant, specifically asking 365 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 5: them if they noticed anyone standing around, maybe trying to 366 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 5: ingratiate themselves with the cast and crew, anybody that acted weird. 367 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 5: They were asking those types of questions of all of 368 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 5: the employees in the Elcharro trying to determine if anyone 369 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 5: was there that shouldn't have been or was acting inappropriately 370 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 5: while they were there. 371 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: From our friends at today, you know, I'm very curious 372 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: about their line of questioning to these restaurant employees, if 373 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: they saw anyone there that day that was unusual, if 374 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: anyone hung around, you know, to braf It's Gibbons joining 375 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: US Director of Operations USPA Nationwide Security, that must have 376 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: been a memorable day for a lot of people. To 377 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: have a big star like Savannah Guthrie roll in very memorable. 378 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: So it's not just the employees. They're going to be 379 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: questioned about other people that were there that day to 380 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 1: watch the filming. I guarantee if It's Gibbons, they're going 381 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: to be asking does anybody have a son a black 382 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 1: sheep son? Does anybody have a bad seed brother in 383 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: law or son in law or cousin where the mom 384 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: comes home and says, hey, guess what happened today Savannah 385 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: Guthrie was there with her mother, or guess what's going 386 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: to happen tomorrow? And what I want to do with that, 387 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: braf It's Gibbons is overlay it onto that Google trend 388 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:05,479 Speaker 1: search where someone thought to question Savannah Guthrie's salary and 389 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: in the same search the home address for Nancy Guthrie 390 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: and then connect that person to someone we may find 391 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: out about through the restaurant employees. 392 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 6: Certainly a focus of those questions is going to be 393 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 6: who did you tell about this? Did you text anybody? 394 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 6: Did you call anybody? Am I able to look at that. 395 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 4: Text to see who? How did they respond? Right? 396 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 6: It may not be that they're focused solely on that 397 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 6: restaurant employee, but who's on their periphery, who's in their 398 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 6: circle that they told about this event, and they told 399 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 6: about missus Guthrie living in Tucson being connected to Savannah. 400 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: So it's not just limited to the employees. It's who 401 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: they know, who they're related to, who may have been 402 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: in the restaurant at that time. The line of questioning. 403 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: I'm very curious about what that is, what it means, 404 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: what we can glean from the FBI spending not one 405 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: but two full days at the restaurant, So we believe, well, 406 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 1: there are two restaurants in play that we know of 407 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: right now. Of course, this is us on the outside 408 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: looking in Brian. There is the restaurant connected to that 409 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: glove that was found about two miles from Nancy Guthrie's home. 410 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: The glove was connected back to in a restaurant employee, 411 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: and that employee was cleared. There's that restaurant, and there 412 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: is the restaurant at which Nancy Guthrie and Savannah Guthrie, 413 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: let's see that video had the Arizona homecoming where Savannah 414 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: went back home and she was with her family. They 415 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: went to their favorite restaurant. They spent time in missus 416 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: Guthrie's home. Which restaurant are we talking about, Brian. 417 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 6: We're talking about this restaurant that you see here. And 418 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 6: you have to remember this isn't Hollywood, right, this is Tucson, Arizona. 419 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 6: So you have a film crew, Savannah Guthrie, a nationally 420 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 6: recognized TV show host, rolls into this restaurant. This would 421 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 6: be quite an event for that restaurant and the people there. 422 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 6: And I think it's important to mention it's unlikely that 423 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 6: it was happenstance that an abductor happened to be in 424 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 6: the restaurant that day, you know, and saw Missus Guthrie. 425 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 4: The most likely scenario is that somebody who. 426 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 6: Was there be it staff or a guest actually communicated 427 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 6: about Hey, I saw Savannah Guthrie with her mother at 428 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 6: this restaurant. Another thing that law enforcement is undoubtedly doing 429 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 6: is looking at the checks from that day. Who else 430 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 6: was in the restaurant, who paid with a credit card? 431 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 6: What information does the restaurant have about the other guests, 432 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 6: And then they're going to go out that one additional 433 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 6: layer and start asking everybody who was there who they 434 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 6: communicate with about this. 435 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: Another possibility, Brian Fitzgibbons, is surveillance video if it can 436 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: be pulled down from the cloud of what was happening 437 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: in the parking lot. If there let's just go with 438 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: me on this. We know we have that video from 439 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: a neighbor of cars zipping by around the time that 440 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker stopped connecting to the bluetooth and her home, 441 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: you know, two three o'clock in the morning. There are 442 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: people heading back and forth toward her home, toward that street. 443 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: This is from our friends at Fox News. By the way, we. 444 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 9: Too have heard the reports about a ransom letter in 445 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 9: the media. 446 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: As a family, we are doing everything that we can. 447 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: We are ready to talk. Joining me now, Christian Hammond 448 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence expert. He is a professor of computer science 449 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 1: at Northwestern University. Again not shabby, Christian, director of the 450 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: Center for Advancing Safety on Machine Intelligence. Christian, thank you 451 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: for being with us. What I'm getting at is I'm 452 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: narrowing down who I'm looking for. I'm looking for a guy, 453 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: what do we say, jackie between five nine and six feet, 454 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: at least one sleeve, one full sleeve, likely two full sleeves. 455 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: I'm looking for someone that has that Ozark backpack. I'm 456 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: looking for that receipt. I'm looking for someone from the 457 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: Twuson area because they have a soft spot for two 458 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: Tucson TV networks that maybe they grew up watching. I'm 459 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: looking for someone that has a knowledge of Nancy Guthrie 460 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: and her home, maybe maybe connected in some tenuous way, 461 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: not necessarily an employee of that Mexican restaurant. I believe 462 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: we're looking for someone that may have a criminal record. 463 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 1: And now I'm looking for someone that may have conducted 464 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: that Google search we talked about early on that looked 465 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: for Nancy Guthrie's home address and Savannah Guthries salary. Okay, 466 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: that's a lot of data. Christian Hammond think about the 467 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: ransom note. Could the purp if the ransom note is 468 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: in fact connected, have used AI artificial intelligence to disguise 469 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: their identity, Well, certainly. 470 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 9: I mean the power of the power of the language 471 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 9: models is that you can have them say something that 472 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 9: you want to say, but in a tone and in 473 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 9: a in a cadence of words that is not yours. 474 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 9: And so you can certainly disguise yourself that way, and 475 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 9: you'll leave a little bit of a trace in doing so. 476 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 9: But that trace is so minute and is so washed 477 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 9: out in terms of all the other activity that's going 478 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 9: on that it's. 479 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 4: It wouldn't be. 480 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 9: It wouldn't be you wouldn't be able to find it. 481 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: And so yes, okay, Christian, we established earlier that year, 482 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: you know, a lot years ahead of all of us 483 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: mere mortals. When it comes to this. I heard you. 484 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: I know what all those words mean, but in the 485 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: context of your sense, I don't know what you're saying. 486 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: You're telling me that Google can look through trillions of 487 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: data points and they can find Nancy Guthries doorcam, and 488 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: they can resurrect like Lazarus video footage we thought didn't 489 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: even exist. Well, we listen to Now that was our 490 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: first mistake. But that said, and we can't put all 491 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: of these facts together and come up with that artificial 492 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: intelligence request. 493 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 9: Yeah, so finding finding the images is a targeted task. 494 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 9: That is, they know where they should be looking, they 495 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:26,479 Speaker 9: know the features that are really important there, and that 496 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 9: really gives them a lot of constraints in terms of 497 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 9: what they're looking for. But when you're looking for an 498 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 9: arbitrary query against a language model, where there are dozens 499 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 9: of language models, some of them are local, some of 500 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 9: them anyone can use of finding a tiny little piece 501 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 9: of a request is an untenable I mean, there's too 502 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 9: much to search. And in the midst of all this, 503 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 9: there might be other people who are going, I wonder 504 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 9: what it's like. 505 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 7: I wonder if you could generate a. 506 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 9: Ranch note, And so they're generating them and we will 507 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 9: find them as well. And so it's we're really in 508 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 9: a place where there's not enough focus to in terms 509 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 9: of what we're looking for to find the right thing. 510 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 9: And I think it's actually in the movie. In the 511 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 9: movie about about Touring and all of the work he 512 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 9: done did in terms of decrypting, there was a moment 513 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 9: where once he identified a target that they knew they 514 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 9: they were looking for a particular thing in a particular 515 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 9: in a particular message that gave them the ability to 516 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 9: figure out what was going on. But if you don't 517 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 9: have a target, it's incredibly difficult to find the right 518 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 9: thing at the right time that gives you the right 519 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 9: kind of information. 520 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: Okay, Christian Hammond, you are the artificial intelligence expert. In 521 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: a perfect world, what would I need to track down 522 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: that AI request to write the ransom note? 523 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 9: Well, a perfect world would be that we would be 524 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 9: able to take a look at all those all the 525 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 9: logs of all the interactions trivially. Uh. 526 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 7: The But that's a perfect world in. 527 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 9: Terms of one thing, and that's finding stuff. But it's 528 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 9: not a perfect world in terms of privacy, in terms 529 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 9: of data leakage, in terms of I'm feeling like I've 530 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 9: been using a system and I'm not telling it my 531 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 9: entire life, and that life will be shared with everyone. 532 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 9: So there are I've always been privacy issues. So even 533 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 9: with the finding the you know, finding the images associated 534 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 9: with this particular camera, there are privacy issues. That is 535 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 9: that she didn't have a subscription and so they should 536 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,959 Speaker 9: not have been holding onto anything, but they were getting 537 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 9: to the all the camera, all the footage associated with 538 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 9: the cameras in her neighborhood. That's a privacy issue, that 539 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 9: is that unless you've signed off for your camera to 540 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 9: be used, you can't use it. 541 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 7: And so there's always this. 542 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: True I understand, So there really is no perfect world 543 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: in finding that AI request. Okay, let me ask you this. 544 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: Many people have suggested there's a possibility of doing a 545 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: retinal scan on the porch gud. There's some great shots 546 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: of his eyes. What do you make of that? Let's 547 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: see the shots. 548 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 9: Yeah, the the problem is is that they're they're good, 549 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 9: but they're not magnificent. So retinal scans usually are done 550 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 9: using infrared light to begin with, and they're they're marvelous. 551 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 9: I mean, they're incredibly powerful in terms of being able 552 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 9: to identify individuals. But you need that as the target. 553 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 9: That is, if I'm if I've got a new if 554 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 9: I got a new image and I could get a 555 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 9: retinal scan out of it, I've got to find I 556 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 9: have to have a thing to match it against, and 557 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 9: we we don't really have that. 558 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: The other thing is that even if there was enough 559 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: data Christian to get the retinals scan and you're saying 560 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: it's just beyond enhancing it from images. We have to 561 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: have something to compare it too, Like fingerprints. You may 562 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: have a great fingerprint, but you got to ask somebody 563 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: to compare it too. 564 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 9: So he could leave fingerprints and DNA and footprints and 565 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 9: all sorts of things. But if they're not if there's 566 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 9: not a target for us to match them against, it 567 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 9: doesn't help us unless we have him in hand. 568 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: Okay, Christian Hammond, I want you to go back to 569 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: your think take at Northwestern University and come up with 570 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: some answers for me. Christian Hammond, Jeff Garnett, Bryan Fitzgibbons, 571 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, and Dave Mack thank you for being 572 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: with us. Everyone. If you know or think you know 573 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll 574 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: free eight hundred two two five five three two four 575 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: to remain anonymous. Five two zero eight eight two seven 576 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: four sixty three. There is a one point two plus 577 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of 578 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie. Arrest, conviction not acquired. We remember American hero 579 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 1: police officer Jamie Roman Philly p D shot and killed 580 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 1: in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife 581 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 1: turned widow and children sentenced to life without their dad. 582 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: American hero police officer Jamie Roman. Nancy Grace signing off 583 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: goodbye friend.