1 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:23,024 Speaker 1: Pushkin, I'm in the Greenberg and I wrote the series 2 00:00:23,184 --> 00:00:26,144 Speaker 1: The Hunt for the Dark Web's Biggest Kingpin for Wired magazine, 3 00:00:26,704 --> 00:00:33,784 Speaker 1: and it's the story of the week. One of the 4 00:00:33,984 --> 00:00:36,824 Speaker 1: many things I never get invited to is the Dark Web. 5 00:00:37,704 --> 00:00:39,904 Speaker 1: I don't know what goes on there, but I assume 6 00:00:39,944 --> 00:00:42,624 Speaker 1: it's some kind of party with good looking people and 7 00:00:42,824 --> 00:00:46,304 Speaker 1: leather outfits and lots of poppers. Even though no one's 8 00:00:46,304 --> 00:00:50,304 Speaker 1: invited me. I consider checking it out anyway. But unlike 9 00:00:50,304 --> 00:00:52,784 Speaker 1: the other cool places I'm not invited to, or you 10 00:00:52,904 --> 00:00:54,784 Speaker 1: simply have to know someone cool to let you in, 11 00:00:55,504 --> 00:01:00,824 Speaker 1: the dark Web requires computer skills to get in. You 12 00:01:00,904 --> 00:01:05,464 Speaker 1: have to use tour and VPNs, and onion routing doesn't 13 00:01:05,464 --> 00:01:07,304 Speaker 1: seem fun to hang out with people who know about 14 00:01:07,384 --> 00:01:11,224 Speaker 1: onion routing. Andy Greenberg wrote about a guy who ruled 15 00:01:11,264 --> 00:01:13,784 Speaker 1: the world of the Dark Wag, and he found that 16 00:01:13,904 --> 00:01:16,984 Speaker 1: on a day to day basis, being the world's biggest 17 00:01:17,024 --> 00:01:21,224 Speaker 1: drug lord anonymously behind the screen all day lacked a 18 00:01:21,304 --> 00:01:24,664 Speaker 1: lot of real life excitement, which is why he found 19 00:01:24,784 --> 00:01:29,784 Speaker 1: another world to dominate, a world that was somehow even 20 00:01:29,904 --> 00:01:43,184 Speaker 1: more awful. Writing his hard Who's got that kind of 21 00:01:43,264 --> 00:01:46,864 Speaker 1: time when you're already busy trying to be john Stein 22 00:01:47,104 --> 00:01:50,264 Speaker 1: until it turns on a mic. Maybe twiddles and knob 23 00:01:50,464 --> 00:01:54,744 Speaker 1: because a journalist Frand has got in that jewel jib auditory. 24 00:01:55,664 --> 00:02:02,344 Speaker 1: Single story. Just listen to smart people speaking conversation. Filming 25 00:02:02,504 --> 00:02:19,344 Speaker 1: information is a story of Andy Greenberg has been writing 26 00:02:19,344 --> 00:02:22,424 Speaker 1: about the dark web since twenty eleven, back when the 27 00:02:22,624 --> 00:02:25,624 Speaker 1: dark web was a baby, a baby with a pension 28 00:02:25,664 --> 00:02:28,384 Speaker 1: for drugs and murders, but still a tiny version of 29 00:02:28,464 --> 00:02:31,584 Speaker 1: what it's become. He wrote an article that's so long 30 00:02:31,744 --> 00:02:36,064 Speaker 1: and complicated it stretched out over two issues of Wired magazine. 31 00:02:36,584 --> 00:02:39,584 Speaker 1: It's about this website on the dark web called Alphabet, 32 00:02:40,104 --> 00:02:42,504 Speaker 1: and it's an excerpt from his new book, Tracers in 33 00:02:42,544 --> 00:02:45,424 Speaker 1: the Dark, which is all about this new method that 34 00:02:45,504 --> 00:02:48,904 Speaker 1: law enforcement is using to catch online criminals. For a 35 00:02:48,984 --> 00:02:52,024 Speaker 1: long time, people used cryptocurrency to buy drugs and demand 36 00:02:52,144 --> 00:02:56,464 Speaker 1: ransom because it's untraceable. But crypto transactions turned out to 37 00:02:56,544 --> 00:03:01,904 Speaker 1: be very traceable, and criminals had no idea. Andy Greenberg, 38 00:03:02,064 --> 00:03:06,424 Speaker 1: thank you for doing this and writing this insane story. 39 00:03:06,744 --> 00:03:09,304 Speaker 1: So Alphabet was one of the sites on the dark web, 40 00:03:09,904 --> 00:03:13,664 Speaker 1: and what did people do at alphabet? Alphabet was essentially 41 00:03:14,024 --> 00:03:18,784 Speaker 1: a massive drug and crime bizarre where you could buy 42 00:03:18,944 --> 00:03:23,384 Speaker 1: like any narcotic imaginable, you could buy counterfeits, you could 43 00:03:23,424 --> 00:03:27,904 Speaker 1: buy hacking tools, stolen data, and you know, like massive 44 00:03:27,944 --> 00:03:30,664 Speaker 1: troves of stolen credit cards. But I would say that 45 00:03:30,784 --> 00:03:36,264 Speaker 1: their biggest source of income was drugs. Was like heroin, methamphetamines, cocaine, 46 00:03:36,344 --> 00:03:41,304 Speaker 1: like every drug imaginable. Alphabet by its peak was doing 47 00:03:41,464 --> 00:03:44,104 Speaker 1: millions of dollars in drug deals a day. And it 48 00:03:44,184 --> 00:03:47,704 Speaker 1: was only around twenty sixteen or so that I began 49 00:03:47,824 --> 00:03:51,144 Speaker 1: to see that this site was just getting bigger and 50 00:03:51,304 --> 00:03:55,784 Speaker 1: bigger and didn't seem like law enforcement was doing anything 51 00:03:55,784 --> 00:03:57,504 Speaker 1: about it. It seemed to be the one that was 52 00:03:57,584 --> 00:04:00,664 Speaker 1: going to get away with it somehow, And so this 53 00:04:01,144 --> 00:04:04,104 Speaker 1: started to seem like, perhaps this is the untouchable dark 54 00:04:04,144 --> 00:04:07,224 Speaker 1: web market that cannot be found or shut down. And 55 00:04:07,424 --> 00:04:09,384 Speaker 1: were you getting better prices than you would down at 56 00:04:09,384 --> 00:04:12,984 Speaker 1: like MacArthur Park. Typically dark web drugs cost more, but 57 00:04:13,184 --> 00:04:16,584 Speaker 1: the premium that you get is that there are ratings 58 00:04:16,784 --> 00:04:20,784 Speaker 1: and reviews, and you get exactly this the kind of 59 00:04:21,064 --> 00:04:23,784 Speaker 1: strain of psychedelic mushrooms you're looking for. Or you can 60 00:04:23,864 --> 00:04:26,944 Speaker 1: see the reviews on that MDMA and see that it's real, 61 00:04:27,584 --> 00:04:31,264 Speaker 1: you know, ideally like that it doesn't contain fentinyl, for instance. 62 00:04:31,664 --> 00:04:34,784 Speaker 1: And the reviews are pretty trustworthy and pretty like seriously written. 63 00:04:34,984 --> 00:04:39,784 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, just like Amazon buyers would leave reviews, and 64 00:04:40,104 --> 00:04:43,184 Speaker 1: you could just look through all of these seller pages 65 00:04:43,224 --> 00:04:46,864 Speaker 1: and find reputable people. And the dark web drug markets 66 00:04:47,264 --> 00:04:50,344 Speaker 1: in some ways are like a really efficient and sort 67 00:04:50,384 --> 00:04:55,984 Speaker 1: of superior way to sell these really dangerous and dodgy products. 68 00:04:56,304 --> 00:04:59,064 Speaker 1: The person who's running alphabet no one knows who it is, 69 00:04:59,144 --> 00:05:03,464 Speaker 1: but they call themselves Alpha O two, which, by the way, 70 00:05:03,584 --> 00:05:06,584 Speaker 1: it's so lame. Why Alpha oh two? Why can't he 71 00:05:06,704 --> 00:05:09,904 Speaker 1: be Alpha oh one? Like who's Alpha O one? You know, 72 00:05:10,024 --> 00:05:12,944 Speaker 1: I never figured out who Alpha oh one was. I 73 00:05:13,024 --> 00:05:14,864 Speaker 1: don't know why he was Alpha O two, which is 74 00:05:14,864 --> 00:05:18,504 Speaker 1: almost like an oxymoron, this isn't it. But all that 75 00:05:18,624 --> 00:05:20,904 Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies could really figure out about Alpha O 76 00:05:20,944 --> 00:05:22,784 Speaker 1: two was that he seemed to be like this hacker 77 00:05:22,864 --> 00:05:25,264 Speaker 1: who had like a history of credit card fraud, and 78 00:05:26,024 --> 00:05:28,464 Speaker 1: that he actually looked like he was based in Russia. 79 00:05:28,784 --> 00:05:31,064 Speaker 1: He would sign off his messages in Russian with a 80 00:05:31,184 --> 00:05:34,144 Speaker 1: kind of like be safe brothers message, So it really 81 00:05:34,184 --> 00:05:36,824 Speaker 1: seemed like Alpha O two was probably based in Russia, 82 00:05:36,864 --> 00:05:40,104 Speaker 1: and therefore, as with many cyber criminals, the law enforcement 83 00:05:40,104 --> 00:05:42,904 Speaker 1: agencies around the world, who increasingly were lays or focused 84 00:05:42,944 --> 00:05:46,584 Speaker 1: on this guy, thought he might be beyond their reach. 85 00:05:47,744 --> 00:05:51,264 Speaker 1: So there's this group of DA agents in Fresno, California, 86 00:05:51,504 --> 00:05:53,984 Speaker 1: which by the way, is not an exciting place. I 87 00:05:54,104 --> 00:05:57,464 Speaker 1: had to go there once. But there's this guy, Grant Raven, 88 00:05:57,584 --> 00:06:00,824 Speaker 1: who shows up there and he starts looking into alpha 89 00:06:00,864 --> 00:06:04,784 Speaker 1: based trading and figures out kind of what's going on there. Right, 90 00:06:04,864 --> 00:06:09,384 Speaker 1: So Grant Raven was running this dark web task and 91 00:06:09,464 --> 00:06:11,144 Speaker 1: a friends now when they were going after dark web 92 00:06:11,264 --> 00:06:13,944 Speaker 1: drug dealers. Being as ambitious as he was, he saw 93 00:06:14,024 --> 00:06:16,344 Speaker 1: like the ability if you focus on the dark web, 94 00:06:16,864 --> 00:06:19,944 Speaker 1: then you can prosecute cases all around the country because 95 00:06:20,024 --> 00:06:22,744 Speaker 1: you can just prove that a dark web drug dealer 96 00:06:22,824 --> 00:06:27,864 Speaker 1: had sent illegal narcotics to his districts, then he could 97 00:06:27,984 --> 00:06:29,984 Speaker 1: prosecute those people and they could go anywhere in the 98 00:06:30,144 --> 00:06:32,984 Speaker 1: country and arrest them. Yeah, if you send like a 99 00:06:33,224 --> 00:06:36,784 Speaker 1: one package of molly to the general Fresno area, he 100 00:06:36,864 --> 00:06:39,864 Speaker 1: can prosecute anyone anywhere in the world, right, exactly. Yeah, 101 00:06:39,944 --> 00:06:42,504 Speaker 1: And that is what he did. Initially. He made these 102 00:06:43,144 --> 00:06:46,104 Speaker 1: relatively small cases all around the country, taking down these 103 00:06:46,624 --> 00:06:49,704 Speaker 1: heroin and fentinyl dealers, you know, as far away as 104 00:06:50,104 --> 00:06:52,944 Speaker 1: New York. But then by doing that and by like 105 00:06:53,144 --> 00:06:55,344 Speaker 1: kind of racking up like a small collection of cases 106 00:06:55,384 --> 00:06:59,824 Speaker 1: for this dark web task force, they did develop a reputation. 107 00:07:00,184 --> 00:07:03,904 Speaker 1: And that is what I think resulted. Just before Thanksgiving 108 00:07:04,304 --> 00:07:07,864 Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, in a DA agent in that small 109 00:07:07,944 --> 00:07:11,584 Speaker 1: office where seating this tip. And so this DA office 110 00:07:11,624 --> 00:07:15,224 Speaker 1: in Fresno receives an anonymous tip about the email address 111 00:07:15,504 --> 00:07:19,144 Speaker 1: of Alpha O two, the person behind Alphabet, and it's 112 00:07:19,824 --> 00:07:25,424 Speaker 1: pimp Underscore alex Underscore ninety one at hotmail dot com, 113 00:07:26,264 --> 00:07:29,584 Speaker 1: which is so sloppy, right it implies he's twenty three 114 00:07:30,144 --> 00:07:34,384 Speaker 1: and lame, like so lame he uses hotmail. So what 115 00:07:34,544 --> 00:07:38,264 Speaker 1: did they do next? When this dark Web task force 116 00:07:38,344 --> 00:07:41,104 Speaker 1: in Fresno started just like googling around to find that 117 00:07:41,384 --> 00:07:44,744 Speaker 1: email address elsewhere, they quickly found that there was this 118 00:07:44,864 --> 00:07:47,984 Speaker 1: kid named alex who had had this sort of like 119 00:07:48,504 --> 00:07:51,304 Speaker 1: brief and embarrassing hip hop career. You know. There were 120 00:07:51,344 --> 00:07:54,544 Speaker 1: these like album covers they found for this guy who 121 00:07:54,704 --> 00:07:58,544 Speaker 1: turned out to be named Alexander Kaz who was from Quebec, 122 00:07:58,984 --> 00:08:01,464 Speaker 1: and it kind of seemed unlikely, almost like too good 123 00:08:01,504 --> 00:08:03,984 Speaker 1: to be true, Like is it really this this kid, 124 00:08:04,104 --> 00:08:07,304 Speaker 1: Like he seemed like sort of an unlikely masterminds of 125 00:08:07,424 --> 00:08:10,064 Speaker 1: the dark Web because he's running the largest drug sales 126 00:08:10,104 --> 00:08:13,624 Speaker 1: website ever. Yeah. I think to this day it arguably 127 00:08:13,744 --> 00:08:17,464 Speaker 1: by some measures, Alpha Bay remains the biggest dark web 128 00:08:17,544 --> 00:08:19,944 Speaker 1: drug market of all time. And if he had just 129 00:08:20,264 --> 00:08:22,864 Speaker 1: been more successful in his hip hop career, exact, this 130 00:08:22,944 --> 00:08:26,144 Speaker 1: would never have happened. There are pictures of him with 131 00:08:26,304 --> 00:08:28,704 Speaker 1: like a baggy shirt with dollar bills on it, right, 132 00:08:28,824 --> 00:08:30,904 Speaker 1: like he was he was really going for it. Yeah, 133 00:08:31,144 --> 00:08:35,264 Speaker 1: but you know, looking at then in his fiance's Facebook 134 00:08:35,304 --> 00:08:38,624 Speaker 1: and her family's Facebook, they began to see images of 135 00:08:38,744 --> 00:08:42,544 Speaker 1: him with like a Lamborghini and a villa in Pouquets 136 00:08:42,584 --> 00:08:44,304 Speaker 1: in the south of Thailand, And it turned out that 137 00:08:44,384 --> 00:08:49,024 Speaker 1: he was now based in Bangkok and sort of living 138 00:08:49,144 --> 00:08:51,544 Speaker 1: large as or somewhat large in the sort of like 139 00:08:51,744 --> 00:08:56,104 Speaker 1: crypto bro way. But and so the DA to my surprise, 140 00:08:56,624 --> 00:09:01,104 Speaker 1: has their own kind of large bureau in Bangkok, right, right, 141 00:09:01,184 --> 00:09:04,584 Speaker 1: I mean, perhaps Alexander kaz had like moved to Bangkok 142 00:09:04,704 --> 00:09:07,504 Speaker 1: to try to escape Western law enforcement, but that was 143 00:09:07,624 --> 00:09:10,784 Speaker 1: not the right destination. I mean Bangkok, it turns out 144 00:09:11,064 --> 00:09:14,184 Speaker 1: is home to like the East Asia headquarters for the DA. 145 00:09:14,704 --> 00:09:16,704 Speaker 1: They weren't sure that they had the right guy, but 146 00:09:17,144 --> 00:09:21,344 Speaker 1: immediately they start like following his every move around Bangkok, 147 00:09:21,904 --> 00:09:24,624 Speaker 1: and the Thai police are very cooperative and they plant 148 00:09:25,224 --> 00:09:29,744 Speaker 1: tracking devices on like his Porsche. You know, it did 149 00:09:30,024 --> 00:09:33,464 Speaker 1: seem like he led a very normal, if actually extremely 150 00:09:33,824 --> 00:09:36,704 Speaker 1: luxurious life. I mean he would drop like forty thousand 151 00:09:36,744 --> 00:09:40,144 Speaker 1: dollars on a single dinner party. That's a little drug lordy. 152 00:09:40,224 --> 00:09:42,344 Speaker 1: But that could be Crypto Broye exactly, Yeah, it could 153 00:09:42,344 --> 00:09:45,824 Speaker 1: be the one. He's leading what the Tie call a 154 00:09:46,064 --> 00:09:49,144 Speaker 1: chill chill lifestyle, which means you just are rich and 155 00:09:49,384 --> 00:09:52,704 Speaker 1: hang out and don't seem too stressed, right right. I 156 00:09:52,784 --> 00:09:57,064 Speaker 1: mean he works from home. He mostly like just like 157 00:09:57,384 --> 00:10:00,104 Speaker 1: takes his wife out to dinner, like he's in bed 158 00:10:00,184 --> 00:10:03,664 Speaker 1: by eleven. He doesn't meet with anybody who seems like 159 00:10:03,744 --> 00:10:07,104 Speaker 1: a criminal. It doesn't certainly touch any drugs himself. Ever, 160 00:10:07,784 --> 00:10:11,824 Speaker 1: he does, they quickly discover surveiling him have this other 161 00:10:12,144 --> 00:10:15,944 Speaker 1: secret life as a womanizer and cheats on his wife 162 00:10:16,104 --> 00:10:20,824 Speaker 1: almost obsessively, like on a practically daily basis, picking up 163 00:10:20,984 --> 00:10:23,824 Speaker 1: Thai women in his Lamborghini and taking them to love 164 00:10:23,904 --> 00:10:26,464 Speaker 1: motels and a sort of bachelor path that he keeps 165 00:10:26,504 --> 00:10:29,504 Speaker 1: on the side, and he's picking women up almost every night. 166 00:10:29,664 --> 00:10:32,544 Speaker 1: At in your story you say at seven elevens, which 167 00:10:32,744 --> 00:10:35,304 Speaker 1: that's not how seven elevens work here, Like why seven elevens? 168 00:10:35,544 --> 00:10:37,424 Speaker 1: You know, I really don't know. I did at one 169 00:10:37,464 --> 00:10:40,184 Speaker 1: point stop at a seven eleven just by coincidence, pretty 170 00:10:40,184 --> 00:10:43,064 Speaker 1: near his home, and I imagine it was it might 171 00:10:43,144 --> 00:10:45,624 Speaker 1: have just been like the nearest place with a parking lot, 172 00:10:45,944 --> 00:10:48,384 Speaker 1: probably know, like you know, where he could just kind 173 00:10:48,424 --> 00:10:51,224 Speaker 1: of sit in his Lamborghini looking cool and talk to 174 00:10:51,344 --> 00:10:55,984 Speaker 1: women who happened to walk by. Wow. Okay, So even 175 00:10:56,024 --> 00:10:59,144 Speaker 1: though they've been falling around, they don't have all the 176 00:10:59,264 --> 00:11:02,024 Speaker 1: evidence they want because a lot of it is on 177 00:11:02,144 --> 00:11:04,824 Speaker 1: his laptop. So why don't they just go in and 178 00:11:04,904 --> 00:11:07,464 Speaker 1: bust him and grab his computer. If the FBI grabbed 179 00:11:07,504 --> 00:11:10,744 Speaker 1: that laptop while it was closed, would be encrypted so 180 00:11:10,904 --> 00:11:14,664 Speaker 1: strongly that it would take you multiple lifetimes with powerful 181 00:11:14,704 --> 00:11:17,744 Speaker 1: computers to break the encryption and give it the evidence 182 00:11:17,784 --> 00:11:22,304 Speaker 1: on that computer. So cause he never opened his laptop 183 00:11:22,384 --> 00:11:25,584 Speaker 1: or logged into alphabet from anywhere but his own home, 184 00:11:25,984 --> 00:11:29,384 Speaker 1: so the law enforcement has to somehow get to him 185 00:11:29,424 --> 00:11:32,424 Speaker 1: while his laptop is open, which seems like an impossible task. 186 00:11:32,984 --> 00:11:35,864 Speaker 1: How would they even know when his laptop's open. Yeah, 187 00:11:36,144 --> 00:11:41,064 Speaker 1: that kind of crucial vulnerability was discovered through this really 188 00:11:41,424 --> 00:11:45,304 Speaker 1: remarkable and unlikely trove of evidence, which is that Cause 189 00:11:45,744 --> 00:11:49,024 Speaker 1: it turned out had kind of a seconds alter ego, 190 00:11:49,584 --> 00:11:52,584 Speaker 1: not on a dark website, but on a pickup artist 191 00:11:52,704 --> 00:11:58,504 Speaker 1: forum called rouge vie, this sort of misogynistic, homophobic, extremely 192 00:11:58,584 --> 00:12:02,384 Speaker 1: conservative forum for like so called alpha males, where he 193 00:12:02,584 --> 00:12:08,064 Speaker 1: posted just all day every day, and Cause is the 194 00:12:08,224 --> 00:12:10,504 Speaker 1: highest tier of paying members of this thing, and he's 195 00:12:10,544 --> 00:12:13,784 Speaker 1: on there every day exactly. I mean, the problem with 196 00:12:13,984 --> 00:12:16,224 Speaker 1: being a dark web drug lord is that you can't 197 00:12:16,384 --> 00:12:19,504 Speaker 1: brag about it to anyone in your real life. And 198 00:12:19,584 --> 00:12:22,424 Speaker 1: I think that that creates this kind of like loneliness 199 00:12:22,584 --> 00:12:25,944 Speaker 1: or like this psychological problem that you are incredibly good 200 00:12:25,944 --> 00:12:28,144 Speaker 1: at what you do and you can't tell anybody. And 201 00:12:28,704 --> 00:12:32,304 Speaker 1: it seems like causes solution to that was defined like 202 00:12:32,424 --> 00:12:35,064 Speaker 1: a different way to sort of like stretch out his 203 00:12:35,224 --> 00:12:39,304 Speaker 1: ego and like brag, And what he bragged about was 204 00:12:39,424 --> 00:12:42,784 Speaker 1: his sex life, and he really just kind of live 205 00:12:42,904 --> 00:12:47,624 Speaker 1: blogs on rouge feed, this forum every kind of sexual 206 00:12:48,024 --> 00:12:51,624 Speaker 1: encounter that he had, and they were, you know, practically daily, 207 00:12:52,064 --> 00:12:54,944 Speaker 1: And he's posting on a thread that's called the I 208 00:12:55,144 --> 00:12:58,144 Speaker 1: just had sex thread, right, and he's posting, just to 209 00:12:58,184 --> 00:13:01,224 Speaker 1: be clear, under a different pseudon him, like he is 210 00:13:01,304 --> 00:13:04,824 Speaker 1: Alpho two, but he's also this other person called Roalmeo, 211 00:13:05,304 --> 00:13:07,824 Speaker 1: which is a reference to excuse me for like saying 212 00:13:07,864 --> 00:13:12,064 Speaker 1: this out loud, but raging. He was very into unprotected sex, 213 00:13:12,184 --> 00:13:14,384 Speaker 1: I guess, and so he called himself Ramo and Romeo 214 00:13:14,944 --> 00:13:16,984 Speaker 1: was one of the most prolific people on rouge fee, 215 00:13:17,024 --> 00:13:20,184 Speaker 1: it seems, since once law enforcement found it was just 216 00:13:20,344 --> 00:13:24,944 Speaker 1: incredibly revealing about who cause was. More tactically speaking, you 217 00:13:24,984 --> 00:13:28,224 Speaker 1: could also see when someone was logged into rouge fee, 218 00:13:28,304 --> 00:13:31,304 Speaker 1: like this little icon next to their posts would light 219 00:13:31,424 --> 00:13:34,064 Speaker 1: up green if they were active on the site at 220 00:13:34,144 --> 00:13:36,344 Speaker 1: that moment. Oh so if the green light was on 221 00:13:36,584 --> 00:13:41,264 Speaker 1: his computer was open exactly. They're totally ready to arrest him, 222 00:13:41,504 --> 00:13:43,264 Speaker 1: but before they do that, they just want to make 223 00:13:43,304 --> 00:13:46,144 Speaker 1: sure that nothing can possibly go wrong. And there are 224 00:13:46,184 --> 00:13:49,744 Speaker 1: these regular meetings at the Europo building at the Hague 225 00:13:49,744 --> 00:13:53,384 Speaker 1: in the Netherlands. It's where the EU's police force meets 226 00:13:53,424 --> 00:13:56,464 Speaker 1: with other law enforcement around the world to coordinate their 227 00:13:56,504 --> 00:13:59,064 Speaker 1: plans and make sure they're not stepping on each other's feet. 228 00:14:00,104 --> 00:14:03,624 Speaker 1: This building has an actual moat, and law enforcements sit 229 00:14:03,744 --> 00:14:06,544 Speaker 1: at those desks with their country names on placards in 230 00:14:06,664 --> 00:14:09,304 Speaker 1: front of them. It looks a lot like the Hall 231 00:14:09,344 --> 00:14:13,344 Speaker 1: of Justice, only without those weird spaceship controls that don't 232 00:14:13,384 --> 00:14:17,064 Speaker 1: seem to do anything. So after the American team lays 233 00:14:17,064 --> 00:14:20,944 Speaker 1: out their plans to take down Alphabet, the Dutch police 234 00:14:21,024 --> 00:14:24,344 Speaker 1: come up with this insane idea and they asked the 235 00:14:24,424 --> 00:14:27,504 Speaker 1: Americans to hold off for a minute on arresting cause 236 00:14:28,464 --> 00:14:31,504 Speaker 1: there is a kind of amazing confluence of events, which 237 00:14:31,584 --> 00:14:37,264 Speaker 1: is that just as this US tie team is closing 238 00:14:37,304 --> 00:14:40,984 Speaker 1: in on the biggest dark web markets in history, the 239 00:14:42,064 --> 00:14:44,944 Speaker 1: Dutch police happened to have got a lead on the 240 00:14:45,144 --> 00:14:48,744 Speaker 1: second biggest dark web markets, which is called Hansa, And 241 00:14:49,384 --> 00:14:52,584 Speaker 1: instead of trying to take down Hansa, they had come 242 00:14:52,664 --> 00:14:56,664 Speaker 1: up with a scheme to take it over, to arrest 243 00:14:56,904 --> 00:15:00,424 Speaker 1: the administrators of the second biggest dark web market and 244 00:15:00,744 --> 00:15:04,224 Speaker 1: run it themselves undercover. Now this was all before they 245 00:15:04,384 --> 00:15:08,624 Speaker 1: even knew that the Americans were closing in on alphabet. Wait, 246 00:15:08,664 --> 00:15:12,184 Speaker 1: so plan is to take over the second biggest drug 247 00:15:12,464 --> 00:15:14,584 Speaker 1: market in the world, and then but then the cops 248 00:15:14,624 --> 00:15:17,024 Speaker 1: would be drug dealers, like they would be running it 249 00:15:17,104 --> 00:15:20,144 Speaker 1: and selling drugs. The idea was to take it over 250 00:15:20,344 --> 00:15:22,064 Speaker 1: and yes, to run it for a time, to be 251 00:15:22,424 --> 00:15:26,024 Speaker 1: the dark web drug lords themselves, and in doing so, 252 00:15:26,584 --> 00:15:30,864 Speaker 1: turn this market Hansa into a kind of surveillance trap 253 00:15:30,984 --> 00:15:35,184 Speaker 1: itself and identify probably you know, a huge swath of 254 00:15:35,224 --> 00:15:38,704 Speaker 1: its dealers and potentially track them down and arrest them. 255 00:15:39,424 --> 00:15:42,624 Speaker 1: Is this ethically dubious to take over a giant drug 256 00:15:42,864 --> 00:15:46,344 Speaker 1: bizarre and sell drugs as cops? I don't know. The 257 00:15:46,424 --> 00:15:48,624 Speaker 1: agents that I sort of pose that question too, just 258 00:15:48,784 --> 00:15:52,224 Speaker 1: basically told me we got permission from the prosecutors. The 259 00:15:52,344 --> 00:15:56,984 Speaker 1: sort of like panel of Dutch prosecutors weighed the costs 260 00:15:57,024 --> 00:16:00,024 Speaker 1: and the benefits and decided that, you know, maybe this 261 00:16:00,184 --> 00:16:02,664 Speaker 1: would be how you like blow a permanent hole in 262 00:16:02,744 --> 00:16:05,464 Speaker 1: the dark web. And the ethics of this are so fraught. 263 00:16:05,584 --> 00:16:09,264 Speaker 1: They would sort of warn their fellow Dutch police and 264 00:16:09,344 --> 00:16:10,904 Speaker 1: try to seize as many of the drugs they were 265 00:16:10,944 --> 00:16:13,584 Speaker 1: being as sold as possible. But there's no question that 266 00:16:13,744 --> 00:16:16,304 Speaker 1: a lot of it was delivered. A lot of these 267 00:16:16,384 --> 00:16:19,624 Speaker 1: deals did go through because you know how it all 268 00:16:19,664 --> 00:16:21,744 Speaker 1: had to be done in secret as well, so it 269 00:16:21,984 --> 00:16:26,504 Speaker 1: is just like remarkably brazen. The Dutch are utilitarians. The 270 00:16:26,704 --> 00:16:31,824 Speaker 1: Dutch are just dastardly and extremely aggressive. It turns out, seriously, 271 00:16:32,104 --> 00:16:33,904 Speaker 1: are they good at being drug lords? Like? Do they 272 00:16:33,944 --> 00:16:36,344 Speaker 1: do a nice job? They apparently ran it so well 273 00:16:36,464 --> 00:16:40,104 Speaker 1: that people on Hansa were remarking to each other like, wow, 274 00:16:40,144 --> 00:16:42,224 Speaker 1: this site is like the customer service has gotten really 275 00:16:42,264 --> 00:16:45,304 Speaker 1: good and it's all runs so efficiently. And the Dutch 276 00:16:45,384 --> 00:16:47,424 Speaker 1: agents that I spoke to who were running the site 277 00:16:47,464 --> 00:16:50,024 Speaker 1: at the time, did kind of take a certain pride 278 00:16:50,064 --> 00:16:54,184 Speaker 1: in this. So the US and TIE law enforcement goes 279 00:16:54,264 --> 00:16:58,104 Speaker 1: down to Bangkok and they're all staying at this hotel together. Right, 280 00:16:58,624 --> 00:17:01,944 Speaker 1: more than twenty prosecutors and agents all arrive in Bangkok 281 00:17:02,064 --> 00:17:04,504 Speaker 1: and most of them are staying at this very fancy 282 00:17:04,584 --> 00:17:08,384 Speaker 1: hotel called the Attenae and Central Bangkok And one day 283 00:17:08,664 --> 00:17:12,224 Speaker 1: there beating down in the lobby and they see kind 284 00:17:12,264 --> 00:17:16,104 Speaker 1: of the most extraordinary thing outside, which is what right, 285 00:17:16,184 --> 00:17:19,224 Speaker 1: So at this point the Thai police are watching causes 286 00:17:19,344 --> 00:17:21,904 Speaker 1: every move. They're surveiling him everywhere he goes, there's a 287 00:17:21,984 --> 00:17:24,544 Speaker 1: team following him physically all the time, and that team 288 00:17:25,064 --> 00:17:27,624 Speaker 1: sends a text message to the Americans. That's just a 289 00:17:27,704 --> 00:17:32,104 Speaker 1: picture of a white Porsche Panamera parked outside of the Atonae. 290 00:17:32,464 --> 00:17:34,744 Speaker 1: And Grant Raybin, the prosecutor, is in the lobby of 291 00:17:34,784 --> 00:17:36,864 Speaker 1: the Attenay, looks at this picture and he says, huh, 292 00:17:37,344 --> 00:17:40,464 Speaker 1: that's weird. Alexander Kaz has a white Porsche Panamera. It 293 00:17:40,544 --> 00:17:44,024 Speaker 1: looks just like that one. And that's the Atonay where 294 00:17:44,064 --> 00:17:46,584 Speaker 1: we are right now. And then the next moment, the 295 00:17:46,664 --> 00:17:49,304 Speaker 1: door of the hotel lobby opens and Kus walks in, 296 00:17:49,624 --> 00:17:51,864 Speaker 1: So he's coming to like he knows they're after him, 297 00:17:51,864 --> 00:17:54,064 Speaker 1: and he's coming to confront them. That is, of course 298 00:17:54,224 --> 00:17:56,944 Speaker 1: what Grant Rabyn and the others on the team thought. 299 00:17:56,984 --> 00:17:58,904 Speaker 1: They thought that they were busted. They thought that there 300 00:17:58,944 --> 00:18:00,744 Speaker 1: had been a leak of some kind that like that 301 00:18:00,864 --> 00:18:03,384 Speaker 1: Kaz has figured it out, and that he was coming 302 00:18:03,424 --> 00:18:06,824 Speaker 1: there to tell them, fuck you, I'm onto you and 303 00:18:06,904 --> 00:18:09,144 Speaker 1: you won't get anything from me. So they go or 304 00:18:09,184 --> 00:18:11,824 Speaker 1: arrest him right then. If they arrested him on the spot, 305 00:18:12,304 --> 00:18:14,544 Speaker 1: they would never get access to his laptop, which you know, 306 00:18:14,624 --> 00:18:17,624 Speaker 1: that's the whole game. They had to catch him logged 307 00:18:17,784 --> 00:18:19,984 Speaker 1: into AlphaBay, They had to prove that he was connected 308 00:18:19,984 --> 00:18:21,664 Speaker 1: to the alphaba server, and they had to get all 309 00:18:21,664 --> 00:18:24,744 Speaker 1: the evidence on this laptop that is going to be 310 00:18:24,864 --> 00:18:26,704 Speaker 1: closed and encrypted if they just arrest him in the 311 00:18:26,784 --> 00:18:29,264 Speaker 1: middle of this hotel. So did they run? What do 312 00:18:29,344 --> 00:18:32,704 Speaker 1: they do? They kind of froze, actually, and I mean 313 00:18:33,024 --> 00:18:35,264 Speaker 1: Grant described it to me as just like seeing a ghost, 314 00:18:35,344 --> 00:18:37,304 Speaker 1: like he could not believe that this guy that he'd 315 00:18:37,344 --> 00:18:40,944 Speaker 1: been tracking for, you know, the eight months at that point, 316 00:18:41,584 --> 00:18:43,704 Speaker 1: had just appeared in front of him. He thought that 317 00:18:43,784 --> 00:18:46,704 Speaker 1: the whole investigation was over. So Kas walks across the 318 00:18:46,824 --> 00:18:52,144 Speaker 1: room right towards their table and sits down one table 319 00:18:52,224 --> 00:18:57,064 Speaker 1: over as another table with a pair of Israeli businessmen 320 00:18:57,424 --> 00:18:59,664 Speaker 1: who it turns out he just happened to be meeting 321 00:18:59,704 --> 00:19:02,864 Speaker 1: with in the same hotel, in the same lobby as 322 00:19:03,264 --> 00:19:06,544 Speaker 1: the entire team of law enforcement agent and prosecutors who 323 00:19:06,744 --> 00:19:11,144 Speaker 1: were hunting him for months. So what do the prosecutors do? 324 00:19:12,104 --> 00:19:14,864 Speaker 1: I think mostly the US investigators just wanted to escape, 325 00:19:14,904 --> 00:19:17,304 Speaker 1: so they kind of quietly signaled to each other to 326 00:19:17,904 --> 00:19:20,744 Speaker 1: just like go upstairs to get out of the lobby. 327 00:19:21,024 --> 00:19:23,904 Speaker 1: As stealthily as possible without giving any sign of who 328 00:19:23,984 --> 00:19:27,784 Speaker 1: they were. Law enforcement are finally ready to make their arrest, 329 00:19:28,264 --> 00:19:30,984 Speaker 1: in which they have to get Causes open laptop before 330 00:19:31,024 --> 00:19:33,424 Speaker 1: he can get to it. It's going to involve a 331 00:19:33,584 --> 00:19:36,344 Speaker 1: lot of acting, a little bit of wrestling, and some 332 00:19:36,784 --> 00:19:40,864 Speaker 1: really bad driving. But at first, our sponsors are going 333 00:19:40,904 --> 00:19:44,624 Speaker 1: to sell you something, not drugs, at least not illegal ones, 334 00:19:45,024 --> 00:19:46,944 Speaker 1: just the ones with the long list of side effects. 335 00:19:47,544 --> 00:20:02,104 Speaker 1: That stuff is good, though. A few days after they're 336 00:20:02,144 --> 00:20:05,624 Speaker 1: running with Cause, law enforcement are staked outside his house 337 00:20:05,704 --> 00:20:08,584 Speaker 1: and ready to make their arrest. If it works, they 338 00:20:08,664 --> 00:20:11,344 Speaker 1: can set the Dutch Plan in motion and potentially be 339 00:20:11,424 --> 00:20:13,704 Speaker 1: able to track just about every drug deal in the 340 00:20:13,824 --> 00:20:16,864 Speaker 1: entire dark web. But first they have to arrest Cause. 341 00:20:17,304 --> 00:20:19,784 Speaker 1: And the scene dramatically plays out in a cul de 342 00:20:19,864 --> 00:20:22,944 Speaker 1: sac on the outskirts of Bangkok on that morning of 343 00:20:23,104 --> 00:20:27,024 Speaker 1: July fifth, twenty seventeen. There are like half a dozen 344 00:20:27,264 --> 00:20:31,024 Speaker 1: undercover agents playing all these different roles on this you know, 345 00:20:31,264 --> 00:20:35,024 Speaker 1: usually quiet street in causes neighborhood, like in front of 346 00:20:35,064 --> 00:20:37,424 Speaker 1: his house. One of them is pretending to be an electrician, 347 00:20:37,584 --> 00:20:40,064 Speaker 1: like working on a telephone pole wiring box. One is 348 00:20:40,224 --> 00:20:44,264 Speaker 1: pretending to be a gardener. And then this car with 349 00:20:44,464 --> 00:20:47,264 Speaker 1: two female undercover agents pulls into the cul de sac 350 00:20:47,664 --> 00:20:50,264 Speaker 1: kind of pretending to have taken a wrong turn. This 351 00:20:50,624 --> 00:20:55,584 Speaker 1: gray Toyota camera rolls down the streets and kind of 352 00:20:55,584 --> 00:20:58,024 Speaker 1: gets to the end and then like looks like they're stuck. 353 00:20:58,424 --> 00:21:00,544 Speaker 1: The security guard at the end of the block, who 354 00:21:00,904 --> 00:21:04,344 Speaker 1: works for this private subdivision, tells to drive her of 355 00:21:04,464 --> 00:21:07,184 Speaker 1: this car, like you can't turn around, just back out, 356 00:21:07,424 --> 00:21:10,144 Speaker 1: and she doesn't listen, and she sort of pretends like 357 00:21:10,224 --> 00:21:14,584 Speaker 1: she's this hapless, bad driver, and she crashes the Toyota 358 00:21:14,624 --> 00:21:18,384 Speaker 1: camera right into Alexander, causes front gate. So does he 359 00:21:18,464 --> 00:21:20,864 Speaker 1: come out of the house. Not initially, but instead his 360 00:21:20,944 --> 00:21:24,104 Speaker 1: wife comes out, and the driver of the Toyota camera 361 00:21:24,184 --> 00:21:26,944 Speaker 1: and undercover agents who went by the name the nickname Nong, 362 00:21:27,704 --> 00:21:30,544 Speaker 1: she kind of comes out of the car like apologizes, 363 00:21:30,664 --> 00:21:32,944 Speaker 1: like flapping her hands in this hapless way and like 364 00:21:33,104 --> 00:21:35,744 Speaker 1: explains she's just learning to drive, and can't she please 365 00:21:36,264 --> 00:21:39,224 Speaker 1: pay for the damage and cause his wife, this very 366 00:21:39,304 --> 00:21:42,744 Speaker 1: nice taie woman says no, don't worry about it, and 367 00:21:43,464 --> 00:21:46,224 Speaker 1: knowing like sort of appeals to her Buddhism and says 368 00:21:46,264 --> 00:21:47,664 Speaker 1: like no, please let me pay for it. I don't 369 00:21:47,664 --> 00:21:50,104 Speaker 1: want to pay for it in the next life. Please 370 00:21:50,144 --> 00:21:53,224 Speaker 1: have your husband's come down so I can talk to 371 00:21:53,344 --> 00:21:57,544 Speaker 1: him about compensating him and the works. CAUs. His wife 372 00:21:57,984 --> 00:22:00,784 Speaker 1: signals to him through the window that he should come down, 373 00:22:00,864 --> 00:22:04,144 Speaker 1: and he does, and he emerges from the house shoeless 374 00:22:04,224 --> 00:22:06,664 Speaker 1: and shirtless, just in a pair of Jim shorts and 375 00:22:07,104 --> 00:22:10,824 Speaker 1: walks through the gate. This moment, like another agent comes 376 00:22:10,904 --> 00:22:13,864 Speaker 1: out of the back of Pong's car where he was hiding. 377 00:22:14,144 --> 00:22:17,944 Speaker 1: This guy is nicknamed M. And M sprints through the 378 00:22:18,064 --> 00:22:21,144 Speaker 1: gates through the front door, pass caused his wife taking 379 00:22:21,264 --> 00:22:23,704 Speaker 1: the stairs you know, two at a time, and he 380 00:22:23,784 --> 00:22:26,704 Speaker 1: turns around and runs into Causes bedroom where he finds 381 00:22:27,184 --> 00:22:31,424 Speaker 1: that his laptop is on this cheap white desk and 382 00:22:31,544 --> 00:22:34,984 Speaker 1: it's open, and he lunges for it, puts his finger 383 00:22:35,024 --> 00:22:39,304 Speaker 1: on the trackpad and he's got it. Wow, M announces 384 00:22:39,344 --> 00:22:42,704 Speaker 1: over the police radio. Officers. Officers, we have the laptop, 385 00:22:42,944 --> 00:22:46,224 Speaker 1: and the war room of agents and prosecutors and the 386 00:22:46,304 --> 00:22:49,264 Speaker 1: THAIE headquarters who are watching all of this unfolds from 387 00:22:49,384 --> 00:22:52,264 Speaker 1: surveillance video like burst into applause. It's like this this 388 00:22:52,424 --> 00:22:56,664 Speaker 1: incredible moment and essentially they've got the real prize. Oh wow. Okay, 389 00:22:57,064 --> 00:23:00,384 Speaker 1: so now they've finally got Cause and his laptop with 390 00:23:00,464 --> 00:23:03,824 Speaker 1: all this incredible evidence against him. So how does the 391 00:23:03,984 --> 00:23:07,544 Speaker 1: legal case play out? It doesn't really, I mean, the 392 00:23:07,704 --> 00:23:10,264 Speaker 1: tragic part of the story is that Cause is taken 393 00:23:10,304 --> 00:23:14,024 Speaker 1: to Thai police headquarters. He spends a couple of days 394 00:23:14,504 --> 00:23:17,424 Speaker 1: like sleeping on a leather couch and in the actual 395 00:23:17,824 --> 00:23:21,424 Speaker 1: police office being sort of treated with kid gloves to 396 00:23:21,544 --> 00:23:23,904 Speaker 1: try to convince him to agree to extradition or maybe 397 00:23:23,944 --> 00:23:27,264 Speaker 1: even to cooperate to become an informant. But he initially 398 00:23:27,344 --> 00:23:30,584 Speaker 1: doesn't want to cooperate, and he's moved down to a 399 00:23:30,744 --> 00:23:33,744 Speaker 1: jail cell on the first floor of this police building. 400 00:23:34,224 --> 00:23:37,464 Speaker 1: After a couple of days, he does agree to extradition, 401 00:23:39,024 --> 00:23:44,024 Speaker 1: and only a week after his arrest, he's found dead 402 00:23:44,184 --> 00:23:49,904 Speaker 1: in that cell, asphyxiated from an apparent suicide. Of course, 403 00:23:50,424 --> 00:23:54,224 Speaker 1: both US and Thai law enforcements say that he committed suicide. 404 00:23:54,264 --> 00:23:58,664 Speaker 1: And but you know, his defense attorney his mother believe 405 00:23:59,184 --> 00:24:04,744 Speaker 1: one that he was murdered by whom, oh Alphabeto one exactly. 406 00:24:05,144 --> 00:24:08,264 Speaker 1: Nobody even who believes that Cause was murdered really has 407 00:24:08,384 --> 00:24:10,664 Speaker 1: like a respect in mind. I mean, but there are 408 00:24:10,744 --> 00:24:14,224 Speaker 1: theories that you know, perhaps what if he was working 409 00:24:14,304 --> 00:24:18,104 Speaker 1: with somebody physically and Bangkok who had him killed to 410 00:24:18,224 --> 00:24:22,504 Speaker 1: cover his tracks. Okay, Cause is dead, but there's still 411 00:24:22,584 --> 00:24:24,904 Speaker 1: this bigger plan, the crazy one that the Dutch have 412 00:24:25,424 --> 00:24:28,144 Speaker 1: that all these Alphabet users are now going to flood 413 00:24:28,184 --> 00:24:31,544 Speaker 1: to Hansa, which they are now controlling. Did that work 414 00:24:31,624 --> 00:24:36,144 Speaker 1: out at all? It worked perfectly. I mean, it's so elaborated. 415 00:24:36,144 --> 00:24:39,304 Speaker 1: It was such like a complex mousetrap and it just 416 00:24:39,504 --> 00:24:44,264 Speaker 1: sprung like you know, clockwork. It was incredible, Like Alphabet 417 00:24:44,544 --> 00:24:47,864 Speaker 1: is taken down. Cause has been arrested, but nobody knows that. 418 00:24:48,104 --> 00:24:50,984 Speaker 1: The users of Alphabet just see that it's down and 419 00:24:51,344 --> 00:24:53,904 Speaker 1: start looking for an alternative, and by the thousands and 420 00:24:54,024 --> 00:24:58,544 Speaker 1: thousands they flood into Hansa, which is completely under Dutch control. 421 00:24:59,784 --> 00:25:02,944 Speaker 1: So the Alphabet and Hansa bust had a huge impact 422 00:25:03,064 --> 00:25:06,464 Speaker 1: on the crypto dark web drug market. What came out 423 00:25:06,504 --> 00:25:09,864 Speaker 1: of this bust over the years that followed, You know, 424 00:25:10,064 --> 00:25:13,624 Speaker 1: not only was of course Cause arrested in like twenty 425 00:25:13,664 --> 00:25:17,864 Speaker 1: three million dollars in cryptocurrencies seized from him, but hundreds 426 00:25:17,904 --> 00:25:20,984 Speaker 1: of other people were arrested in these like code named 427 00:25:21,464 --> 00:25:26,264 Speaker 1: massive roundups of Dark Web drug dealers. This included hundreds 428 00:25:26,304 --> 00:25:30,944 Speaker 1: of people, like tens of millions of dollars of cryptocurrency 429 00:25:31,504 --> 00:25:34,944 Speaker 1: and more than a thousand pounds of actual drugs seized 430 00:25:34,944 --> 00:25:37,344 Speaker 1: as well. But there's no doubt that it just like 431 00:25:37,584 --> 00:25:39,584 Speaker 1: reverberated through the dark web in a way that I 432 00:25:39,664 --> 00:25:43,824 Speaker 1: think no other law enforcement operation ever has Do you 433 00:25:43,904 --> 00:25:48,144 Speaker 1: think that dark web will ever be shut down? Well, no, 434 00:25:48,464 --> 00:25:50,744 Speaker 1: I do not believe the dark web will ever be 435 00:25:50,904 --> 00:25:52,624 Speaker 1: shut down, and nor should it be. I mean, the 436 00:25:52,744 --> 00:25:55,864 Speaker 1: dark web is not just like a black market for 437 00:25:55,984 --> 00:25:59,464 Speaker 1: drugs or a contraband. The dark web is what Wiki 438 00:25:59,544 --> 00:26:01,904 Speaker 1: leaks was built on. It's what like enables all of 439 00:26:01,944 --> 00:26:07,024 Speaker 1: these anonymous drop boxes for the Washington Posts and like 440 00:26:07,384 --> 00:26:11,224 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal, like we're very reputable news outlets 441 00:26:11,264 --> 00:26:14,704 Speaker 1: now depend on these same technologies to guarantee anonimity to 442 00:26:14,784 --> 00:26:18,624 Speaker 1: sources the same way that alphabet guaranteed anonymity to drug dealers. 443 00:26:19,104 --> 00:26:21,584 Speaker 1: And there are many other applications of these same tools 444 00:26:21,904 --> 00:26:26,064 Speaker 1: that are really necessary for digital civil liberties. I think 445 00:26:26,144 --> 00:26:31,104 Speaker 1: the technology exists, the science of cryptography makes this possible, 446 00:26:31,344 --> 00:26:34,664 Speaker 1: and it will persist in one form or another. Do 447 00:26:34,704 --> 00:26:36,744 Speaker 1: you remember at the end of every episode of AMMI Vice, 448 00:26:36,984 --> 00:26:39,864 Speaker 1: like there'd be this weird sadness that Crockett and Tubs 449 00:26:39,904 --> 00:26:43,024 Speaker 1: would have because they know whatever whoever they took down, 450 00:26:43,064 --> 00:26:44,864 Speaker 1: there'd be someone else to take down the next day. 451 00:26:44,984 --> 00:26:48,104 Speaker 1: Like this feels like that. I've never watched Miami Vice, 452 00:26:48,144 --> 00:26:49,584 Speaker 1: I have to admit, but you know, it's like, to me, 453 00:26:49,744 --> 00:26:52,784 Speaker 1: it's more like The Wire, like you take down Avon 454 00:26:52,904 --> 00:26:56,944 Speaker 1: Barksdale and then Marlow Stanfield just like it's around the corner. 455 00:26:57,984 --> 00:27:00,344 Speaker 1: I think it's more like The Merchant of Venice in 456 00:27:00,504 --> 00:27:03,264 Speaker 1: that I just feel like you outplayed me by mentioning 457 00:27:03,304 --> 00:27:05,584 Speaker 1: the Wire instead of Matty Vice. Like sec You're just 458 00:27:05,664 --> 00:27:07,904 Speaker 1: You're just like dropping a higher brow reference. I'm trying 459 00:27:07,944 --> 00:27:11,144 Speaker 1: to Yeah, okay, yeah, feel free to spin out that 460 00:27:12,304 --> 00:27:16,424 Speaker 1: for Andy Greenberg as a senior writer for Wired Magazine 461 00:27:16,464 --> 00:27:18,744 Speaker 1: and the author of the book Tracers in the Dark, 462 00:27:18,864 --> 00:27:22,944 Speaker 1: The Global Hunt for the Crime Lords of Cryptocurrency. Andy, 463 00:27:23,384 --> 00:27:26,504 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on and explaining this story. 464 00:27:27,064 --> 00:27:30,624 Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure. Thank you. I think we all 465 00:27:30,704 --> 00:27:34,144 Speaker 1: learned something important from the story, namely that you should 466 00:27:34,184 --> 00:27:37,264 Speaker 1: just say no to drugs, and if you do say yes, 467 00:27:37,984 --> 00:27:39,784 Speaker 1: buy him late at night in a park like a 468 00:27:39,944 --> 00:27:43,704 Speaker 1: normal person. Otherwise the Dutch police are going to be 469 00:27:44,024 --> 00:27:52,704 Speaker 1: all over your ass. At the end of the show, 470 00:27:53,104 --> 00:27:56,344 Speaker 1: what's next for joel Stein? Maybe he'll take a napper 471 00:27:56,504 --> 00:28:00,304 Speaker 1: poke around online. Our show today was produced by Kate 472 00:28:00,384 --> 00:28:04,024 Speaker 1: mcculiffe and nishaven Cut. It was edited by Robert Smith. 473 00:28:04,824 --> 00:28:08,864 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Amanda kay Wang and our executive producer 474 00:28:08,984 --> 00:28:12,544 Speaker 1: is Katherine Gerardo. And our theme song was written and 475 00:28:12,624 --> 00:28:15,904 Speaker 1: performed by Jonathan Colton. And a special thanks to my 476 00:28:16,024 --> 00:28:20,184 Speaker 1: voice coach Vicky Merrick and my consulting producer laurenz Elasnick. 477 00:28:20,584 --> 00:28:24,024 Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcast, listen on the iHeartRadio app, 478 00:28:24,384 --> 00:28:28,104 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm 479 00:28:28,184 --> 00:28:30,384 Speaker 1: Joel Stein and this is the story of the week. 480 00:28:31,424 --> 00:28:35,504 Speaker 1: So comes out and this other undercover agents comes out 481 00:28:35,544 --> 00:28:38,504 Speaker 1: of his car, sort of pretends to be helpful, almost 482 00:28:38,584 --> 00:28:42,544 Speaker 1: just like in this helpful way, Plus causes iPhone out 483 00:28:42,624 --> 00:28:45,984 Speaker 1: of the band of his shorts and holds onto it. 484 00:28:46,584 --> 00:28:48,704 Speaker 1: By the way, pulling that iPhone from the Jim shorts 485 00:28:48,784 --> 00:28:51,704 Speaker 1: is a gutsy move because, as we know from his 486 00:28:51,944 --> 00:28:55,544 Speaker 1: posts on Rusche, he likes to work out commando, which 487 00:28:55,584 --> 00:28:57,944 Speaker 1: I've never heard of before, that it's the most seen 488 00:28:58,384 --> 00:29:00,744 Speaker 1: part of the story is working out without underwear. True, 489 00:29:00,824 --> 00:29:03,384 Speaker 1: I did not mention the cause is going commando as 490 00:29:03,424 --> 00:29:05,584 Speaker 1: all of this unfolds and is in fact only wearing 491 00:29:05,584 --> 00:29:08,624 Speaker 1: a pair of Jim shorts. Coming up on Story of 492 00:29:08,704 --> 00:29:10,824 Speaker 1: the Week, they'll be like a Christmas tree stand and 493 00:29:10,864 --> 00:29:12,664 Speaker 1: then like right across the street there'll be another Christmas 494 00:29:12,664 --> 00:29:16,904 Speaker 1: tree stand and they're like competing franchises, and they're you know, 495 00:29:16,944 --> 00:29:19,024 Speaker 1: they're both like blowing their prices like crazy to try to, 496 00:29:19,144 --> 00:29:21,704 Speaker 1: you know, undercut the other. So if you see two 497 00:29:21,824 --> 00:29:24,824 Speaker 1: Christmas tree stands across the street from each other, first 498 00:29:24,824 --> 00:29:27,104 Speaker 1: of all, there's war going on. Yeah, there's definitely something 499 00:29:27,184 --> 00:29:27,704 Speaker 1: bad going on.