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Speaker 3: Very difficult to keep the line between the past and

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Speaker 3: the price.

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Speaker 4: Who believes that someone out of the past we can

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Speaker 4: enter and take possession of a living being.

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Speaker 1: We may be through with the past, but the past

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Speaker 1: is not through with us.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to the Next Picture Show, a movie of

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Speaker 5: the Week podcast devoted to a classic film and the

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Speaker 5: way it shaped our thoughts on a recent release. I'm

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Speaker 5: Tasha Robinson here again with Scott Tobias.

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Speaker 6: And Genevieve Kowski.

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Speaker 5: Our absent co host, Keith Phipps is headed to Washington

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Speaker 5: to make a case to Congress that more goats should

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Speaker 5: be allowed to be college professors. We wish him all

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Speaker 5: the best with his noble cause. In our last episode,

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Speaker 5: we discussed the all time classic musical The Wizard of Oz,

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Speaker 5: in which a young and sometimes reckless Kansas girl is

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Speaker 5: swept over the rainbow to a magical land where she

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Speaker 5: meets friends, sees wonders, and is menaced by a green

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Speaker 5: skinned witch, all as she tries to make her way

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Speaker 5: back home. Gregory McGuire's nineteen ninety five novel Wicked, The

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Speaker 5: Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West,

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Speaker 5: flip subscript and sees it all from the witch's point

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Speaker 5: of view, giving her a much more sophisticated and complicated

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Speaker 5: set of motivations than Dorothy ever had, reconsidering who the

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Speaker 5: hero of the story is, and arguably kicking off an

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Speaker 5: era of villain stories reconsidered from Disney movies like Maleficent

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Speaker 5: and Cruella to a new wave of the villain was

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Speaker 5: Right narratives. Stephen Schwartz and Winnie Holtzman's two thousand and

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Speaker 5: three Broadway show adapting Wicked streamlined that story tremendously and

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Speaker 5: packed it full of catchy songs, most notably the melismatic

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Speaker 5: anthem Defying Gravity, which arguably turned a Dina Manzel from

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Speaker 5: a Broadway performer and occasional movie dabbler into a worldwide superstar. Now,

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Speaker 5: Wicked the Musical is a movie, or at least, as

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Speaker 5: some people are finding out in theaters to their surprise,

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Speaker 5: the first half of Wicked is a movie directed by

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Speaker 5: crazy rich Asians and in the Heights helmer John M.

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Speaker 5: Chw with Act two of the musical coming to theaters

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Speaker 5: about a year from now. Difficult as it is to

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Speaker 5: review half a story, especially half a story that's been

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Speaker 5: greatly expanded from the original stage version. With about an

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Speaker 5: hour of new material. There's a lot to dig into

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Speaker 5: in the movie adaptation of Wicked part one, from the

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Speaker 5: casting of Cynthia Arrivo and Ariana Grande as it leads

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Speaker 5: to the CG experience to the decision to cut this

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Speaker 5: movie in two. We'll dig in after the break.

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Speaker 6: Tomorrow morning?

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Speaker 2: Is knocking stock your fridge?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 7: How about a creamy mocha frappucinia drink or a sweet

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Speaker 7: vanilla smooth caramel maybe, or a white chocolate mocha, whichever

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Speaker 7: you choose. Delicious coffee wits, find Starbucks, Rapercino Drinks wherever

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Speaker 7: you buy your groceries.

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Speaker 5: Why is it you're always causing some sort of commotion.

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Speaker 5: I don't cause commulsions.

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Speaker 3: I am one.

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Speaker 5: Some of us are just different.

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Speaker 3: Listen to me. You can do anything.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 2: Just followed out.

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Speaker 3: It's made your.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 5: So just so I know exactly what focal length to

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Speaker 5: zoom into this conversation on. Have either of you read

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Speaker 5: Wicked the book? Have either of you got any relationship

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Speaker 5: with the Broadway musical before seeing this movie?

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Speaker 4: So I did not read the book. I did go

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Speaker 4: to the musical when it came through Chicago, and I

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Speaker 4: thought it was fine.

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Speaker 6: So did you see the Anagaestyre Alphaba. That's the one

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Speaker 6: that I saw.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, see, I don't know if I did you see

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Speaker 4: in Chicago as well?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the first tour.

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Speaker 6: So this was back in like two thousand and fives

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Speaker 6: or so.

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Speaker 4: So maybe I saw it later. I don't remember there

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Speaker 4: being an actor I would have known in that production,

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Speaker 4: but I saw it. I thought it was I thought

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Speaker 4: it was fine. And then I saw this new movie.

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Speaker 4: Oh that was fine.

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Speaker 5: So I got to ask, do you people just have

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Speaker 5: spectacular memories for play casting or is this just much

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Speaker 5: more important to you than it is to me. I

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Speaker 5: have seen very few plays, or like, I've seen a

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Speaker 5: bunch of Broadway musicals, both on Broadway and in traveling form.

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Speaker 5: And I don't remember when I saw Wicked who starred

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Speaker 5: in it. It wasn't Adina Menzel and Christian Chenne with

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Speaker 5: but I don't remember who it was. And I don't

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Speaker 5: note such things. And when we talked about company and

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Speaker 5: the three of you were all like, oh, yes, I

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Speaker 5: saw such and such on Broadway twenty seven years ago,

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Speaker 5: and here's everybody who was in it. I was just like,

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Speaker 5: does everybody else have an entire section of their brain

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Speaker 5: that I don't have, Like, how do you remember these

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Speaker 5: things well?

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Speaker 6: In the case of seeing the Chicago two thousand and

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Speaker 6: five production of Wicked starring Anna gas Steyer as Alpha,

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Speaker 6: but I wouldn't know without looking it up who played Glinda,

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Speaker 6: it was Kate Rinders. But I remember it being a

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Speaker 6: big deal that Anna Gasteyer was in that role because

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Speaker 6: that was like basically the first thing she did after

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Speaker 6: SNL and not a lot of people knew that she

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Speaker 6: could sing, and the fact that she was doing Alphaba's battlecry,

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Speaker 6: I was, you know, something that I think people were

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Speaker 6: surprised by and paying attention to. So that specific element

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Speaker 6: of it is what why her casting sticks out to me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I would have remembered that cat. There's no way

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Speaker 4: I must have seen it later because I think I

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Speaker 4: would remember that casting as notable for exactly the reason

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Speaker 4: you describe.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, But to actually answer Tasha's question, yes, obviously I

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Speaker 6: saw the musical and I did read the book around

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Speaker 6: that same time. I have very little memory of it

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Speaker 6: because I was, you know, I liked this story. I

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Speaker 6: liked the play, but I was also friends with someone

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Speaker 6: who was obsessed with it. To a somewhat off putting degree,

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Speaker 6: So I think that that maybe cooled my response a

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Speaker 6: little bit, unfortunately, but you know, that's that's how these

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Speaker 6: things go sometimes. But I was, you know, I'm a

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Speaker 6: I'm a bigger fan of the new musical that year

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Speaker 6: that Wicked lost to, which is Avenue Q. I think

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Speaker 6: it is by far the better musical, and and that

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Speaker 6: was that was the correct choice on the Tony's part.

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Speaker 6: So Wicked has always kind of been in my mind

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Speaker 6: as like a good but not great musical for various reasons.

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Speaker 6: But you know, to I guess get right into what

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Speaker 6: we thought of Wicked part one. I was very keen

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Speaker 6: on this this adaptation. It's been maybe kind of enthusiastic

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Speaker 6: about the material again and enthusiastic for the first time

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Speaker 6: maybe about the character of Fierro and the song Dancing

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Speaker 6: through Life, which I always hate before and is one

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Speaker 6: of the standout sequences of this film. And obviously I

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Speaker 6: think that the two main performances are pretty phenomenal. I

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Speaker 6: think I've shared this story before on the podcast, but

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Speaker 6: I was lucky enough to see Cynthia Rivo on Broadway

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Speaker 6: in the color purple in the front row, meaning I

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Speaker 6: got to have her belt. I'm here, like directly at

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Speaker 6: me from a few feet away. So I was very

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Speaker 6: intimately familiar with her capabilities.

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Speaker 5: You know, so that I would remember.

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Speaker 6: Yes, So you know, I like, I'm sure so many

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Speaker 6: people were, you know, just watching this waiting for the

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Speaker 6: battle cry in Defying Gravity, even though it's in the trailer,

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Speaker 6: which is a weird choice, but you know, just like,

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Speaker 6: I went into this movie very confident she could do

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Speaker 6: what needed to be done, and it was very gratifying

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Speaker 6: to have that confirmed for me Ariana Grande. You know,

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Speaker 6: maybe I was a little less confident that she would deliver,

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Speaker 6: but I also thought she delivered quite well. So yeah,

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Speaker 6: I'm pretty bullish on Wicked part one and very curious

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Speaker 6: what Wicked Part two is going to go given the

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Speaker 6: lack of standout songs in Act two of Wicked.

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Speaker 5: So are you aware that Stephen Schwartz is writing two

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Speaker 5: new songs for the movie?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Kind of blew my mind, but it is sort of

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Speaker 5: an answer. I really did wonder, and I put this

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Speaker 5: in print in a piece I wrote about just kind

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Speaker 5: of stuff knowing to know. Before going to Wicked, I

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Speaker 5: really wondered if they were going to find a way

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Speaker 5: to reprise to find gravity in part two, just because

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Speaker 5: it's so iconic, and it would be a really weird

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Speaker 5: choice for John Mchew, who loves the show and you

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Speaker 5: know it says he's seen it over and over and over.

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Speaker 5: It would be really disrupting the structure. But from a

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Speaker 5: movie standpoint, there's just no equivalent at all to that

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Speaker 5: experience in Act Too. And it is kind of a

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Speaker 5: big call to tell Stephen Schwartz, like, hey, there's no

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Speaker 5: big iconic define gravity in Act two. Can you go

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Speaker 5: right a define gravity for Act Too? So I've seen

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Speaker 5: a lot of curiosity about how Part Part two is

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Speaker 5: going to be handled on a lot of levels.

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Speaker 6: I would like to see it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's just so much real estate, I mean,

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Speaker 4: and I think it's maybe to the project's credit. I

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Speaker 4: was thinking when it was announced that this was going

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Speaker 4: to be a two part enterprise and that the first

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Speaker 4: part was two and a half hours, it was just

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Speaker 4: it felt like that is thin gruel to me, Like

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Speaker 4: that just the concept of that seemed impossible to pull

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Speaker 4: off because I just felt like the wicked that I

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Speaker 4: saw on stage was, you know, a clever idea that

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Speaker 4: you could only really take so far, and so to

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Speaker 4: kind of open it up to this degree might be

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Speaker 4: a mistake. But maybe that's not Maybe that isn't the case.

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Speaker 4: Maybe maybe adding a lot of new material, adding new songs,

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Speaker 4: you know, doing the thing that I always complained that

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Speaker 4: movies don't do when when they were adapt being borrowick

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Speaker 4: plays and imagining it more for the screen as it's

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Speaker 4: something different, is a healthy thing, healthier than I expected.

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Speaker 6: Tasha, what did you think? I want to know?

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Speaker 5: I mean, well, I mean, did we really fully hear

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Speaker 5: what Scott thought of it as as a movie, as

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Speaker 5: a movie as opposed to a movie as an adaptation.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I guess my my only my issue with

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Speaker 4: it is it just it felt I was left cold

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Speaker 4: by it, and I think that it just has to

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Speaker 4: do with the filmmaking. It just it's so perfect, like

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Speaker 4: machine made. Feels like it doesn't have that kind of slickness,

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Speaker 4: you know. I saw heading into the movie a bunch

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Speaker 4: of trailers for movies I have no interest in seeing it,

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Speaker 4: but it seemed like it was just of a piece.

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Speaker 4: With all of that, it just it felt like where

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Speaker 4: is the personal touch here? It had a lot of

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Speaker 4: a lot of craft, It was very slick. There was

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Speaker 4: you know, kind of a strong CGI quality to it.

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Speaker 6: I feel like Scott has not been inundated with enough

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Speaker 6: behind the scenes imagery and video because like, yeah, because

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Speaker 6: I mean like these were gigantic sets that were constructed,

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Speaker 6: and obviously there's a lot of you know, CGI goosing happening,

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Speaker 6: but like, this is not a green screen movie, and

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Speaker 6: you know, these are performances happening on a very large scale.

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Speaker 4: To you watching the film, you felt that way that

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Speaker 4: this is this is a physical space that they're.

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Speaker 5: Mostly didn't to me, Yeah, there's a lot of that

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Speaker 5: movie that looked to me like the actors might be

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Speaker 5: the only real things on screen.

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Speaker 6: No, I think you're both wrong. I think like maybe

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Speaker 6: that is just the design of some of the spaces

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Speaker 6: that is maybe registering that way.

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Speaker 5: But these are for the I.

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Speaker 6: Don't want to say for the most part, but there

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Speaker 6: are a lot of very large physical sets and that

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Speaker 6: these performers are acting on. And I think what grabbed

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Speaker 6: me most, I'll just say like I had various bouts

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Speaker 6: of spectacle tears throughout this, which is something that I

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Speaker 6: get most at big stage musicals, you know, sort of

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Speaker 6: just the I've talked about this a million times, so

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Speaker 6: I'm sorry for those who are sick of hearing it.

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Speaker 6: But just sort of the spectacle of a large number

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Speaker 6: of people performing en mass in unison, like creating this moment,

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Speaker 6: this performance moment together just makes me choke up quite frequently.

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Speaker 6: And there's so much of that sort of I love

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Speaker 6: the dancing in this movie, and like there's some really

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Speaker 6: like odd choreography, but I like that it's odd. I

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Speaker 6: think like it fits this world and this story. And

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Speaker 6: I just like that there are fifty people dancing on

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Speaker 6: screen at one moment together, over and over and over

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Speaker 6: again in this film. Like, I think that's special and

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Speaker 6: it's something that feels very of a piece with Wizard

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Speaker 6: of Oz and like the munchkin Land sequence, you know,

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Speaker 6: And just like having so many physical bodies on screen

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Speaker 6: is exciting to watch for me. And they did feel

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Speaker 6: like physical bodies. I don't think that they are CG creations.

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Speaker 5: No, the physical bodies felt real to me. And I

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Speaker 5: mean to some degree, the musical really didn't open up

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Speaker 5: to me and tell what is this feeling? Which is

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Speaker 5: just a point where everything ramps up the opening. No

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Speaker 5: one warns the Wicked Like, I kind of love that. Musically,

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Speaker 5: it's filled with a kind of like big Broadway harmonies

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Speaker 5: that just like really tickle my brain. But as a

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Speaker 5: staging it felt it kind of felt too Wizard of

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Speaker 5: OZSI it very consciously, so it just didn't feel like

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Speaker 5: song and dance to me, you know, it felt like staging,

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Speaker 5: just sort of very very heavy staging. But on what

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Speaker 5: is this feeling? There's so much movement, and there's so

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Speaker 5: much just tight choreography, and the use of space is

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Speaker 5: funny and interesting, and the use of we're in a

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Speaker 5: cafeteria and we're all cutting food on our plates vindictively

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Speaker 5: in rhythm to the music, just kind of funny stuff

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Speaker 5: like that. I really enjoyed that number, But this entire

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Speaker 5: movie was just very much a number to number experience

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Speaker 5: for me. I love Cynthia Riveau as a performer, and

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Speaker 5: I wish that this movie gave her more to do.

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Speaker 5: She spends just way much too much of the time

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Speaker 5: with the exact same expression on her face, the same

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Speaker 5: sort of I'm pretending I'm above this all, but I

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Speaker 5: actually care deeply fixed expression when she's not singing, and

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Speaker 5: the musical numbers let her open up and like express

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Speaker 5: longing and anger and frustration and need and hope that

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Speaker 5: I just don't see in a lot of the other

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Speaker 5: parts of this movie. So for me, it was a

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Speaker 5: lot about the musical numbers and when people are singing,

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Speaker 5: it really lightens up. But I thought a lot of

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Speaker 5: the new material that just involved hanging out with CG

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Speaker 5: animals and kind of like explicating these plots and like

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Speaker 5: starting up the slow burned Fiero thing without getting to

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Speaker 5: anything that feels like a payoff for that plot, I

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Speaker 5: found a little frustrating. And then to find Gravity itself,

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Speaker 5: I thought that was exasperating the way he chops it

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Speaker 5: up even more than it's chopped up in the musical itself.

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Speaker 5: For business, you know, the whole point of that song

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Speaker 5: is the escalation of it and the building power up

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Speaker 5: to that climactic moment, and the fact that you know,

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Speaker 5: he stops it for soldiers running around, and he stops

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Speaker 5: it for CG flying through the air stuff, and he

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Speaker 5: stops it for clouds. For God's sake, just sing the song.

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Speaker 5: It's a musical. We're here to hear the songs. Why

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Speaker 5: are you interrupting the song between verses? For three to

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Speaker 5: five minutes, Jenny's mouth has moved entirely to one side

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Speaker 5: of her face. I feel a compulsion sometimes to what

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Speaker 5: I'm seeing on screen, especially when there's a clause, because

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Speaker 5: this is not a video experience and you're not getting

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Speaker 5: to see what I'm seeing.

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Speaker 6: I'm just thinking of about to what degree I want

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Speaker 6: to push back on that, because, like I agree that

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Speaker 6: it is chopped up and there's like some business in

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Speaker 6: there that is maybe unnecessary. But I think I in

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Speaker 6: the moment I kind of admired the audacity of it

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Speaker 6: and of delaying the thing that again is in the

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Speaker 6: trailer and is like sort of the the defining moment,

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Speaker 6: the defining musical moment of this movie, defining gravity. Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 6: And I think again like in the moment, I was

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Speaker 6: like watching it and like seeing it being broken up,

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Speaker 6: which in the show like it is, there is like

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Speaker 6: kind of the song stops and changes, you know, around

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Speaker 6: dialogue beats. I don't think any of them go for

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Speaker 6: three to five minutes. I'm gonna give you a yellow

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Speaker 6: hyperbole card on that one. But like I said, I

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Speaker 6: think like I just kind of found myself chuckling a

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Speaker 6: little at the odds, like oh John Chu, you're dragging

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Speaker 6: this out. You're making a meal out of this because

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Speaker 6: you know, this is the thing we want, and it's

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Speaker 6: it's the last beat of the film, which is also

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Speaker 6: like a choice, you know, because you don't have to

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Speaker 6: end the movie in the same place the Act one ends.

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Speaker 6: That was a conscious choice, and I just I think

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Speaker 6: drawing it out it worked for me, is all I'm saying.

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Speaker 5: It's got you're looking off into space.

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Speaker 4: I guess I want to just to kind of go

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Speaker 4: back to a point that Tasha is making about the

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Speaker 4: two characters. I think that Glinda is so much the

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Speaker 4: juicier role when we're dealing with dialogue and character stuff,

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Speaker 4: and there's so much more for our Inna Grande to

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Speaker 4: do with that character. But Alphaba is something as someone

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Speaker 4: who winds up expressing yourself most powerfully in song. I

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Speaker 4: think that's kind of the way things divvy up. I mean,

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Speaker 4: you know, if you're going to compare them that way,

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Speaker 4: you know, but obviously there's there are interactions between the

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Speaker 4: two of them, you know, once as they grow closer

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Speaker 4: where I can't really separate the performances as much, where

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Speaker 4: they sort of ping off each other quite enjoyably.

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Speaker 6: And I just listened to Anti Gasteyr on the podcast

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Speaker 6: Lost Culturistas, which is a very good episode. I recommend it.

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Speaker 6: But she talked a little about performing in Wicked there

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Speaker 6: and she made this point that Glinda is the humor role,

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Speaker 6: you know, so especially at that point in her career,

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Speaker 6: you know, her being alphab Setting aside that, you know,

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Speaker 6: Glinda is kind of designed for a different type of

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Speaker 6: voice than Alphabet is designed for. It's the humor role,

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Speaker 6: at least in the first act where this story goes.

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Speaker 6: You know, Glinda matures in a less than humorous way,

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Speaker 6: I guess, but you know, in sort of this odd

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Speaker 6: couple segment of the story, those beats fall to her

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Speaker 6: much more and puts Alphaba in the position of kind of,

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Speaker 6: as you said, Tasha, like reacting and making the same

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Speaker 6: face a lot unless she is singing. So part of

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Speaker 6: that I think is just the way the show and

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Speaker 6: the characters are designed. But again, I really respect how

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Speaker 6: Ariana Grande brought it to this. You know, I think

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Speaker 6: she's a kind of stealth comedic performer, maybe not even

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Speaker 6: that stealthy given her her background, but you know, I

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Speaker 6: think it was a good match for this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really a reminder that she that she does

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Speaker 4: have that background that she can do this. I mean

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Speaker 4: it's you know, I think you get a little bit

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Speaker 4: of that when she was on Saturday Night Live as well.

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Speaker 4: I mean, she is a very well rounded performer who

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Speaker 4: can really take off a lot of boxes. The versatility

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Speaker 4: required to play this role makes a pretty high bar

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Speaker 4: for a lot of people to pass, and she's quite good.

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Speaker 5: One element of that kind of commie performance of Glinda

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Speaker 5: slash Glinda that did kind of get in my way

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Speaker 5: with this film adaptation is by padding it out. This

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Speaker 5: movie is five minutes shorter than the entire Broadway show

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Speaker 5: plus intermission. The additional material all kind of goes into

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Speaker 5: Alphaba's backstory and into kind of beefing up the political

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Speaker 5: animal plot, which in part is accomplished via the fact

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Speaker 5: that they can make these characters into characters. I believe

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Speaker 5: it was a vulture piece that's dug into the fact

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Speaker 5: that on stage they're just people with animal masks on

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Speaker 5: or whatever. And the physicality of it plays very differently

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Speaker 5: than when Professor Dilmand is a literal goat, is you know,

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Speaker 5: constantly doing little goat things with his hoofs because he

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Speaker 5: doesn't have hands, and you have to think about sort

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Speaker 5: of what it would be like to be a sentient

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Speaker 5: professor in a world made for individuals with hands, all

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Speaker 5: of whom or over you. That's where the extra material went.

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Speaker 5: But in trying to ground it more and make it

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Speaker 5: more of a story about like actual people, trying to

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Speaker 5: get it closer to the novel, really, because the novel

402
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Speaker 5: is a surprising, lead dense and political literary novel that

403
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Speaker 5: covers kind of the same ground in a far denser

404
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Speaker 5: and far more serious way. I kind of feel like

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Speaker 5: what gets lost was any belief for me in Glinda

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Speaker 5: and Alpha Ba's friendship because things move so quickly, and

407
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Speaker 5: in the Broadway show you just kind of take it

408
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Speaker 5: as read that people have these big emotional swings between

409
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Speaker 5: I hate you and you know, hey, you're kind of okay,

410
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Speaker 5: and we're best friends. We're the bestest friends ever that

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Speaker 5: moment in one short day where they suddenly decide that

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Speaker 5: they're besties. It doesn't work for me on this scale.

413
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Speaker 5: And Ariana Grande's performance is so beautiful, funny, but shallow

414
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Speaker 5: and dim and in the moment and reactive to whatever

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Speaker 5: is going on. Around her that I just didn't kind

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Speaker 5: of believe her heel face turn. I didn't really feel

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Speaker 5: like it ever went past the surface what she goes

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Speaker 5: through with Alpha. But we don't feel the passing of

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Speaker 5: time that is necessary for that relationship to work, or

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Speaker 5: the kind of like simplicity and surfaceness of character that

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Speaker 5: makes it make sense in a hyper accelerated, driven by

422
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Speaker 5: music story kind of way. So I just ended up

423
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Speaker 5: coming out of it thinking you're on this trip to

424
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Speaker 5: the Emerald City with her because she just had an

425
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Speaker 5: impulse to invite you, and then we go directly from

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Speaker 5: there to like it's a big crisis for me that

427
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Speaker 5: I might have to give up everything I ever wanted

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Speaker 5: in order to not be made a fool of and

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Speaker 5: to not be evil, like the emotional conflict there. I

430
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Speaker 5: bought Alphaba's entire journey flawlessly. I didn't buy Glinda's journey

431
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Speaker 5: to being a meaningful friend to her. I guess I

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Speaker 5: bought the idea that she would think in that moment, like, oh, no,

433
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Speaker 5: you did this this really important thing for me. This

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Speaker 5: is great and we love each other now. But in

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Speaker 5: terms of it meaning anything more to her than just

436
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 5: that moment, I don't think. I don't think it landed

437
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 5: for me. And I guess maybe my question is, is

438
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 5: it supposed to because that version of Glinda isn't willing

439
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 5: to give up anything for Alphaba or her beliefs. She

440
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 5: isn't willing to make anything difficult for herself.

441
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 4: I mean, she's she's a conformist. I mean, I mean

442
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 4: that is her. I think she's going to kind of,

443
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 4: you know, not not put herself on on the outside completely.

444
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 4: It's just I think it's her in her nature to

445
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 4: kind of fall back into the fold, to be to

446
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 4: do the thing that is, uh, that's easiest, rather than

447
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 4: the thing that might be more principled or courageous or difficult.

448
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 5: Sure, and I felt all of that in both of

449
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 5: the versions. I guess maybe what I'm asking is, are

450
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 5: we supposed to believe in Glinda as a changed person?

451
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 5: Are we supposed to believe that her going along with

452
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 5: all of this was never anything more than a shallow

453
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 5: momentary consideration. Are we supposed to believe that in any

454
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 5: real and meaningful way she's changed or really is Alpha

455
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 5: Ba's friend or was it all just impulse? And the

456
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 5: literally second that impulse is challenged she backs down from it.

457
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 6: I think everything you're asking about is meant to be

458
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 6: answered in the oz Dest duet, the dance that they

459
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 6: do together in the Ozdest ballroom, and sort of the

460
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 6: circumstances leading up to that of Glinda's sort of setting

461
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 6: up Alphaba for this embarrassment, being followed by Alphaba doing

462
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 6: something kind for Glinda that she had been asking her

463
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 6: to do, and then Glinda being confronted with the embarrassment

464
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 6: that she orchestrated for Alphaba and feeling guilt for that,

465
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 6: and then putting herself out there to publicly embrace this

466
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 6: person that she's been shunning, you know, and putting her

467
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 6: own popularity on the line, and of course, because she's Glinda,

468
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 6: it works out for her. But I think as far

469
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 6: as like the character's growth or development, it's all there

470
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 6: in that moment that she steps out there and does

471
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 6: Alphaba's weird dance with her, and you know, it's followed

472
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 6: by the popular sequence, which I think, you know, is

473
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 6: such a Glinda highlight that it's kind of easy to

474
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 6: forget that it is like their sort of friendship song,

475
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 6: or it's her like devoting herself to Alphaba in the

476
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 6: way that only she can, you know. So I think

477
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 6: all that development happens in that little chunk, and that's

478
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,400
Speaker 6: what sets up the what you characterize as a spur

479
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 6: of the moment decision on Alphaba's part to invite Glinda

480
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 6: and everything that comes after that. So I will say

481
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 6: that I think that decision to encapsulate all that in

482
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 6: this sort of wordless dance between them is a very

483
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 6: broadway stagey convention or just like a musical convention, you know,

484
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 6: like the emotion is all happening through the dance and

485
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 6: through the song, and there's nothing wrong with that, but

486
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 6: so much of the movie does not operate in quite

487
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 6: that register that it maybe doesn't scan the way it's

488
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 6: supposed to in the context of the rest of the movie.

489
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 6: But yeah, I think that it just.

490
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 4: Like on a.

491
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 6: Like a musical is storytelling level, that ozdest ballroom dance

492
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 6: duet is where the turn happens.

493
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 5: I like that thought. I feel like maybe the core

494
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 5: of the problem for me is that on stage, Popular

495
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 5: played for me like an intention going forward, like I

496
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 5: am going to take you up as a project and

497
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 5: where we're going to find ways to make all this

498
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 5: happen in a future that's going to happen kind of

499
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 5: off stage between songs, whereas in the movie, to me,

500
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 5: it sort of plays as she has this impulse and

501
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,239
Speaker 5: she moves to address it, and then there's no way

502
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 5: to do that. Just the way it's staged is she's

503
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 5: kind of flitting around among all these pink, frilly dresses,

504
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 5: and it's just immediately obvious that none of the things

505
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 5: that she can reach for are solutions. You know, she

506
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 5: can't give Alpha Bah a workable makeover. There's just no

507
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 5: way her makeup or her jewelry or her dresses are

508
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 5: going to work. And she ends with just sort of

509
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 5: sticking a flower in her hair, which you can see

510
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 5: is beautiful. Like if the thrust of that, if the

511
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 5: meaning of that is her like looking her for the

512
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 5: first time and realizing, I mean, she's Cynthia Rivo, she

513
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 5: is beautiful, She's the way she's ctured and made up

514
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 5: is a beautiful thing. If this is her acknowledging it

515
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 5: for the first time, and I think you can read

516
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 5: it that way, then maybe it's meaningful. But just something

517
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 5: about the way she spends that whole number flitting around

518
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 5: and then just kind of finds that she can't actually

519
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 5: do anything made it seem, I guess, less like a

520
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 5: sea change for her and again just more like an impulse.

521
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 5: And it's all sort of in the performance in the

522
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 5: physical staging, none of which touches the fact that I

523
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 5: still love that song and it's catchy as hell.

524
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting out with saying, like,

525
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 6: I think the popular coming right after that scene and

526
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 6: being such a funny and fun song like overshadows the

527
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 6: character of it or the character evolution of it, you know,

528
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 6: like it's very much like the surface of Glinda that

529
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 6: we have been seeing amplified to a humor degree. But

530
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 6: that makes it harder to engage with the sort of

531
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 6: emotional character stuff happening beneath that.

532
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 5: I think I will say, I just want to back

533
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 5: your play on Fierro. I think he works so much

534
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 5: better in this production. I think Dancing through Life is

535
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 5: a just incredibly fun production number as it's played out

536
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 5: in this film, as it staged, as it's danced, as

537
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 5: it gets performed. I didn't really see him as a

538
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 5: character worth noting in the stage musical. It just seems

539
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 5: like a lot of nonsense happens around him that isn't justified,

540
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 5: But there's enough I guess, charm in the character and

541
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 5: enough extra material around him that you understand kind of

542
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 5: where it's coming from and both why Alpha Bo would

543
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 5: be pulled toward him and he towards her, and why

544
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 5: neither of them would act on it right away. I

545
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 5: really liked the way that gets kind of like drawn

546
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 5: out and developed in this version.

547
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 4: I have a question for you, Well, you all have

548
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 4: a much fresher memory of the musical than I do,

549
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 4: because I remember Defying Gravity and then watching Wicked. Popular

550
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 4: kind of came back to me as well, that sort

551
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 4: of as being you know, a catchy song, and of

552
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 4: course you know there's some bits bits I do you

553
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 4: remember laughing quite a bit in the show, references to

554
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 4: the Wizard of Oz, et cetera. Is there anything those

555
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 4: of the two most popular songs in the show? I mean,

556
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 4: are there songs in the back half numbers that are

557
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 4: going to have the same stickiness I guess as Defying

558
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 4: Gravity and Popular?

559
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 6: Absolutely not. I think the ones that come closest are

560
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 6: No Good Deed and for Good, which is a kind

561
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 6: of a closing duet between Alpha Bay and Glinda, but

562
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 6: both good songs, but neither are the showstoppers that popular

563
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 6: and define gravity are, which is as Tasha was saying earlier,

564
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,719
Speaker 6: what makes it very very interesting that Stephen Schwartz is

565
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 6: writing new songs which I have to imagine are going

566
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 6: to show up in the back half because you just

567
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 6: you need something to balance it out, because it is

568
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 6: very unbalanced in terms of standout musical numbers.

569
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 4: I guess that would lead into the question, because we

570
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 4: are you know what, we can't really talk about something

571
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 4: that has not it is not in front of us liked.

572
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 4: Were you at all bothered by the half a moviness

573
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 4: of Wicked or did it feel like you know, it

574
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 4: was leading up to an ending at a point where

575
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 4: you were like, where it felt satisfying as a piece

576
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 4: in and of itself and you didn't feel like, what's

577
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 4: where's the rest of the movie? That was curious what

578
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 4: your all thoughts were on that.

579
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 5: I was very bothered by it, mostly because we've seen

580
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 5: a bunch of this over the past decade plus, and

581
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 5: most recently, I guess, with Dune Part one and two.

582
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 5: But it's far more common for the part one of

583
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 5: a two part movie to have an arc that gets

584
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 5: closed out In some way, and you could say that

585
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 5: this movie is the radicalization of Alpha BA. But because

586
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 5: of the way it's split, we get a lot of

587
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 5: setups that are left in ways that don't feel like

588
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 5: ominously dangling plot threads, you know, don't feel like things

589
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 5: that are exciting to get back to. They just feel

590
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,719
Speaker 5: like things are missing. The big one for me is

591
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 5: the introduction of Jeff Goldbloom as the Wizard. You know,

592
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 5: he doesn't have a musical number apart from like a

593
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 5: little sort of tap shuffle thing that he sings a

594
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 5: couple of lines from. He doesn't have a ton of character.

595
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 5: You only start to get to see like the first

596
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 5: edges of his character, so there's no really second shoe drop,

597
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 5: there's no particular reason for him to be Jeff Goldbloom

598
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 5: in this half of the movie, and it just it

599
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 5: feels like there's a lot in terms of that, in

600
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 5: terms of the Fierro thing where which kind of ends

601
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 5: with one sort of troubled, lingering look but doesn't really

602
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 5: feel like it's gotten to a place of tension or

603
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 5: anticipation or desire for release. There's just a lot here

604
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 5: that feels very not half a story, but like no

605
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 5: story yet. That it feels like it's being put on

606
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 5: the on the table but hasn't become relevant yet. That

607
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 5: feels very unsatisfying to me.

608
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,720
Speaker 6: I went into this movie annoyed that it had gone

609
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 6: that it was only part one, and I thought that

610
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 6: it was kind of almost a cheat to end your

611
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 6: movie with defning gravity, you know, like it's just it's like,

612
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 6: of course, people are gonna come out loving, loving this movie,

613
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 6: you know, when you end it on the literal high

614
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 6: point of the the whole story. But I think that

615
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 6: cho is banking on just the familiarity that audiences are

616
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 6: going to have, not just with Wicked, but this broader universe,

617
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 6: oz that they can sense the things that are going

618
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 6: to matter, even if they are not explicitly underlined, like

619
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 6: say a lion cub freed from a cage. You know.

620
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 6: So I came out of it actually like begrudgingly impressed

621
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 6: with how it kind of divided this story, and I

622
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 6: do think that it more or less works on its own.

623
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,919
Speaker 6: As you say, Tasha is a story of the radicalization

624
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 6: of Alphaba. That doesn't like make me feel any better

625
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 6: about the broader trend of splitting movies intwo And you know,

626
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 6: bloated run times and everything that comes with it. But

627
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 6: I think in this particular case, it ultimately didn't bother

628
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 6: me as much as I was expecting it to and

629
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 6: made me curious about how the second part is going

630
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 6: to function both as its own movie and you know,

631
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 6: as a connection to this one. So I'm cautiously optimistic

632
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 6: about it based on the degree to which I enjoyed

633
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 6: Part one.

634
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 4: But it doesn't feel like ruinous bloat, which is kind

635
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 4: of the problem.

636
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 5: That's true, which.

637
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 4: Is kind of the problem with the you know, like

638
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 4: the Hugger Games when they split that into and presumably

639
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 4: I didn't see The Twilight by presumably splitting those into two,

640
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 4: or not even see Harry Potter when they put that

641
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 4: thing intwo. I missed out on those, But maybe that's it.

642
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,959
Speaker 4: I also think, like I think we should we should

643
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 4: go with that subtitle too. I think I think instead

644
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 4: of just called Wicked or Wicked Part one, it should

645
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 4: be Wicked the Radicalization of Alphaba.

646
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 5: Well, it was originally called Wicked Part two Colin for Good,

647
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 5: which you know plays into some big themes in the

648
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 5: second half and some some musical motifs that go on,

649
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 5: but they they have dropped that into marketing materials for

650
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 5: the moment. We'll see what things look like a year

651
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 5: from now. Speaking of splitting things in half enough and

652
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 5: saving a lot of material for the back half, so

653
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 5: you don't bore everybody who showed up expecting a big

654
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 5: number and not getting anything. We're going to take a

655
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 5: break here and we're going to come back with the

656
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 5: other half of our Wicked Part one discussion. When we

657
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,720
Speaker 5: all bring it into context with the Wizard of oz Can.

658
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 4: We call it Dead Reckoning Connections Part one.

659
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 5: I'm gonna call it Connections Part one for.

660
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 3: Good Jesus, help me to show guys.

661
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 5: Go into your mar.

662
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 4: These things.

663
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 5: Listens, users, Now it's time for connections, when we bring

664
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 5: these two films together and talk about all the things

665
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 5: that they have in common. This is sort of a

666
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 5: small thing, but these movies are both fish out of

667
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 5: water movies.

668
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 4: You know.

669
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 5: In one case, you have somebody literally pulled out of

670
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 5: her world and dropped into a magical realm where she

671
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 5: doesn't understand what's going on, she doesn't know the rules,

672
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 5: she doesn't really want to be there. She's suddenly confronting

673
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 5: the fact that she might be a witch, and that

674
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 5: she might be ugly, and then kind of on top

675
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 5: of everything else, she's got to deal with color for

676
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 5: the first time, which has got to be startling. And

677
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 5: then you know, in Wicked you've got a character who's

678
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 5: just perpetually a fish out of water no matter where

679
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 5: she goes. It has blown my mind from the very beginning,

680
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 5: going back to the Gregory maguire novel that in this

681
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 5: land of as we say, mechanical people and glass cats

682
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 5: and talking goats, just like a magical land full of

683
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 5: magical people, everybody's so freaked out over Alpha being green.

684
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 5: It seems like being like the Dungeons and Dragons world

685
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 5: and having people freak out because you've got pointy years,

686
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 5: just like, don't you don't you see a lot of

687
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 5: diversity already in this magical land full of magical creatures.

688
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 5: But whatever, literally from birth, people are shocked and horrified

689
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 5: at her looks. Everywhere she goes, it's painted on her face.

690
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 5: She's out of her element at university where she doesn't

691
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 5: expect to get an education, and then she's drawn into it.

692
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 5: She's out of her element as somebody who creates magical

693
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 5: effects wherever she goes without.

694
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 4: Any control it's it's like, uh, what a freak. Now,

695
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 4: let's go back to listening to the talking goat.

696
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,479
Speaker 6: Yep, exactly in this uh, in this you know story,

697
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 6: I mean, in fairness, they are not embracing the goat

698
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 6: or you know this, This is clearly a society dealing

699
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 6: with with growing fascism, and that metaphor is obviously baked

700
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 6: in from the jump. And I mean, yeah, like everything

701
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 6: you're saying is true, Tasha, but it's a metaphor, you know,

702
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 6: for sure.

703
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 5: But I mean it's a metaphor in both cases, you know.

704
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 5: In in one case it's about somebody who's far from

705
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 5: home and wants to get back to the comforts of home.

706
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 5: And in the other, it's about somebody who doesn't have

707
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 5: a home and kind of never has, and by the

708
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 5: end has to decide that she's going to be her

709
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 5: own home. You know, there's an appeal to This is

710
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 5: almost maybe bleeding into another connection that I had on

711
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 5: the list, but I guess I'll just make the jump.

712
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 5: Both of these stories are about a woman making an

713
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 5: appeal to authority, like expecting somebody else to come along

714
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 5: and be the adult and fix everything. And that's part

715
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 5: of the structure. But part of the understanding of the

716
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 5: story is that there is no you know, there is

717
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 5: no like outside yourself answer. There's nobody that's going to

718
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 5: come along and fix everything for you. You've got to

719
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 5: do it yourself. And in one case, that's just kind

720
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 5: of a oh hey, by the way, I didn't happen

721
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 5: to mention this, but you do have a magical device

722
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 5: that can fix your problem. So maybe Glinda is a

723
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 5: little more of the adult in that case. But in

724
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 5: Alpha Ba's case, the contrast between her I want song

725
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 5: and her realization that not only is the Wizard not

726
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 5: going to fix everything for her, he's actively going to

727
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,919
Speaker 5: make things worse is you know, the reason to find

728
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 5: gravity is so powerful is because she comes to the

729
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 5: conclusion that nobody, nobody has the answers for her, and

730
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 5: she's she's got to do it herself, and that it's

731
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 5: okay for her to want to and for her to

732
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 5: be angry about the way the world is.

733
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 4: I guess what I mean. If you want to talk

734
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 4: about a shout of Water story that ends in a

735
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 4: claiming of power, of agency, of self realization of strength,

736
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 4: much different conclusion, and it's that's a real journey that's

737
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 4: a that's a personal arc, whereas you know Dorothy, Dorothy

738
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 4: goes on a journey as well, but it's but it's

739
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 4: the type of journey where you're sort of getting not

740
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 4: not quite passively, but sort of sort of pushed along

741
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 4: into this into this realm that you're unfamiliar with, and

742
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,240
Speaker 4: you're trying to find your bearings. Here you have somebody

743
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 4: who is who is figuring things out and coming into

744
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 4: her power, and that's a much different feeling.

745
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 6: I think it's also worth remembering that Wicked, while ultimately

746
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 6: being Alphaba's story, is pretty close to a dual protagonist story.

747
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 6: That and Glinda, and who is decidedly not a fish

748
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 6: out of water, she is maybe terrified of being a

749
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 6: fish out of war. Like it's sort of like the

750
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 6: main tension point between her and Alphaba from the get go,

751
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 6: Like just being different and being out of place is

752
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 6: something that Glinda can't tolerate or maybe even fathom, So

753
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 6: that's sort of like built into their relationship from the jump.

754
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 6: But then what else you were saying Tasha about sort

755
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 6: of this appeal to authority figures that both of protagonists,

756
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 6: with Dorothy and Alphaba, make It's interesting that in Wicked

757
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 6: there is also kind of a second authority figure in

758
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 6: Madame Morrible, who is Glinda. Is a little more paired

759
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 6: with in terms of that appealing to authority, because Madam

760
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 6: Morble embraces Alpha BA because she sees her talent and

761
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 6: how it can be used. But you know, Glinda is

762
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 6: kind of constantly trying to get She's picked me Madam

763
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 6: Morble through the whole thing. So just sort of interesting

764
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 6: shadow protagonist antagonist relationship.

765
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 5: And here, you know, I guess this is kind of unfortunate,

766
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 5: But there is a parallel to that in Wizard of Oz,

767
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 5: where the Madame Morrable character is Glinda, the person who

768
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 5: kind of recruits Dorothy to her cause while lying about

769
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 5: her intentions arguably certainly seemingly, but has an agenda that

770
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 5: involves using her power and who presents herself as the

771
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 5: adult that is here to help, that has like specialized

772
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 5: knowledge and is going to coach her and how to

773
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 5: how to use her power and has a hidden agenda.

774
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 5: Is Glinda in that case. So if you want to

775
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 5: try to see it, certainly with the Maguire version, the

776
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 5: part of it that just never worked for me is

777
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 5: the part where it actually intersects Wizard of Oz and

778
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 5: suddenly this character you've come to know, like very intimately

779
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 5: over a lot of story, has to behave like a

780
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 5: very cartoony villain. But if you do try to think

781
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 5: of it all as a contiguous, continuous story that does

782
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 5: fit together, then Glinda kind of looked at Madame Morrible

783
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 5: and learned how to be and kind of became a

784
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 5: similar manipulator and schemer and liar. As far as setting

785
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 5: Dorothy up, and I'd never particularly seen that parallel before,

786
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 5: It's interesting, Yeah, me neither, it's Scott. As far as

787
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 5: talking about how these two, you know, young women claim

788
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 5: their power differently, I think it's interesting to note that

789
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 5: part of where that comes from is that one of

790
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 5: them has come from a nurturing and loving home, and

791
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 5: getting back to that and getting back to the comfort

792
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 5: of people who love and care about her is an

793
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 5: option for her, and in all of these like stressful times,

794
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 5: that's what she's thinking about, is getting back to the

795
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 5: people who love her and support her. Alphabet doesn't have

796
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 5: that option. She's never really had a home of her own,

797
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 5: she's never really had a family that loves and supports her.

798
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,479
Speaker 5: And a boy does the wicked additional material like lean

799
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 5: into that hard by making her father a monster. So

800
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 5: you know, she's again got to find her home and

801
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 5: herself because she doesn't have there's not only not a

802
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 5: future authority to look to to answer her questions or

803
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 5: her problems. There isn't a past one that she can

804
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 5: like revert to or return to. It's just a very

805
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 5: very lonely character her in a way that I think

806
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 5: is dramatically interesting but also very dark and sad.

807
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 4: That's a good point in terms of like, you know,

808
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 4: you would never Dorothy would never think about, you know,

809
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:16,240
Speaker 4: the world that what she occupies as being fundamentally unjust

810
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 4: or corrupt or in need of change. I mean, she's

811
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 4: she's she's focused on getting home, which which she knows

812
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 4: is is a comforting place full of loving people. Alphabat

813
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,760
Speaker 4: obviously does not have that option and and option and

814
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 4: in you know, when she's presented with that option in

815
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 4: the form of Glinda and Glinda's friendship, that falls away too.

816
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 4: And so what what is left and what allies does

817
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 4: she have? You know? And who could she really align

818
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 4: herself with towards the end? I think I think, you know,

819
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 4: you know, when she sees what what she finally gets

820
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 4: to the to uh the Emerald City and meets oz

821
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 4: and and uh her experience with with with him and

822
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 4: then and then what she had witnessed with what happened

823
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 4: to the professor, everything kind of crystallizes for her and

824
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 4: she finds a purpose. But that purpose is, as you say,

825
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 4: a lonely quest because she is not conforming and not

826
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 4: fitting in with this world that she is now sort

827
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 4: of judging is corrupt.

828
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 5: As the smallest side note off of that, I mean,

829
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 5: there is a small bit of corruption in Dorothy's world

830
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 5: in that it's not a fair place.

831
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 7: You know.

832
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 5: It's a place where the meanest lady in town who

833
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 5: owns half the county can get the sheriff on her

834
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 5: side and get a piece of paper that says I

835
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 5: get to steal your dog. But that mostly just there

836
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:39,959
Speaker 5: was a small part of me, like watching this movie

837
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 5: as a kid, that kind of bridled a little bit

838
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 5: at the ending because I would always think, Okay, but

839
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 5: what happens tomorrow when Almira Gult shows up again and

840
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 5: says like it came for your dog, and you somehow,

841
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 5: you somehow jail broke him out. Of my unlocked basket,

842
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 5: I'm taking your dog, and now I've got a basket

843
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 5: with a lock on it. None of her problems have

844
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,439
Speaker 5: been solved. None of her problems have been even addressed

845
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 5: by her journey. And there's a version of this story

846
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 5: where she would like learn something or gain something by

847
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 5: the quest that she's she's gone on that would enable

848
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 5: her to deal with her problems back home. But I

849
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 5: don't think we've ben touch on that. I don't think

850
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:23,439
Speaker 5: it's even considered as something that matters. And I said

851
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 5: earlier that it kind of follows the form of a

852
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 5: fairy tale in terms of, you know, a young girl

853
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 5: sets out into the world and is kind to the

854
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 5: people she encounters, and as a result, they they're on

855
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 5: her side and they help her against the big evil.

856
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 5: But you know, all of those stories, she gains something

857
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 5: at the end that makes her life better. She doesn't

858
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 5: just revert to where she started at the beginning of

859
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 5: the story and Dorothy waking up back in Kansas. None

860
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 5: of her problems are solved, and that always bothered me

861
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 5: even as a child viewer. I mean, her problem of

862
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 5: being in Oz is solved, and her problem of being

863
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 5: hit on the head during a tornado is.

864
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 4: Solved, But I mean it's a lesson though it's not

865
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 4: necessarily a problem being solved, but it's a lesson in

866
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 4: terms of what what matters, right, I mean, she wants,

867
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 4: she's she's tries to run away from home when the

868
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,879
Speaker 4: when the movie opens, and and I think, I think

869
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 4: it's about her coming to realize what who's important and

870
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 4: what's important in getting some perspective. I think that's kind

871
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 4: of where she lands at the end. It's not it's

872
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 4: a pretty, you know, small journey, I guess ultimately, but

873
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 4: I think, but you know, it's something.

874
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 6: It's also just like hugely ironic that where Dorothy ends

875
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 6: up is just so counter to what she expresses in

876
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 6: her Big I Want Song. And I think that is

877
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 6: actually a really interesting connection when you look at Alphaba's

878
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 6: a Big I Want song, which is the Wizard and

879
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 6: I In both of these cases, you have these protagonists

880
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 6: kind of envisioning of future that they think is going

881
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 6: to provide them with something better than they have now,

882
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 6: and in the end, what they end up getting is

883
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 6: the exact opposite of what they thought they wanted. And

884
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 6: I also just want to kind of talk a little

885
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 6: bit about obviously we should talk about the songs broadly,

886
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 6: but I think I specifically wanted to talk about the

887
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 6: I Want songs because I did want to talk about

888
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 6: the Wizard and I sequence in Wicked, because I think

889
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 6: that's where we get so many direct visual parallels to

890
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 6: the Wizard of Oz. Also just the shot that kind

891
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 6: of got me on board for the whole movie where

892
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 6: Alphaba is in like a room with a bunch of

893
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 6: colored glass, like this colored glass mobile, and it's during

894
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,879
Speaker 6: the line where she says, maybe the Wizard will say

895
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 6: I can degreenify you, and all these different colored glasses

896
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 6: are like changing the shade of her face, and it's

897
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,760
Speaker 6: just like a kind of beautiful film making color theory

898
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 6: moment that I just really loved. But also so like

899
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 6: as a song progresses, Alphaba like runs out into this brown,

900
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 6: Sepia toned grassy plane, looks a lot like Kansas, and

901
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 6: sees a rainbow in the background, delivers her big crescendo

902
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 6: to the rainbow, and it feels like a very explicit

903
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 6: connection of this moment to somewhere over the rainbow in

904
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 6: Wizard of Oz.

905
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's also an explicit connection there are there

906
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 5: are a bunch of explicit connections in the lyrics that

907
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 5: are really darkly ironic. Where she talks about being so

908
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 5: happy she could melt, which as we know, is how

909
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 5: she ends her story in Wizard of Oz and you know,

910
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 5: supposedly here, although that's not really the way the story

911
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 5: ends in the book, and then talking about being able

912
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 5: to dimly see a future where there's a celebration in

913
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 5: Oz that's all about her, when we all know that

914
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 5: what she's seeing is the celebration of her death. It's

915
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 5: there's so much irony in that song, much more than

916
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 5: we normally get in an I Want song, which those

917
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 5: tend to be like the really sincere numbers of any

918
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 5: straight musical at least, but Man the Wizard and Is

919
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 5: is so heartbreaking. One of the things that always strikes

920
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 5: me about it is the fact that usually I Want

921
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 5: songs are just a very naked appeal to to the universe.

922
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 5: You know, they're they're not sung to another character. They're

923
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 5: the hunchback of Notre Dame, like singing about the world

924
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 5: out there, like from atop the tower. They're they're Audrey

925
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 5: singing somewhere that's green, like alone by herself in a

926
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 5: little shop of horrors. They're aerial in her, you know,

927
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 5: collection of stuff, singing about the world of the surface.

928
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 5: These are songs people sing to themselves, but in the

929
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 5: Wizard and I even by herself, even alone, even just

930
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 5: kind of in the most naked way, trying to express

931
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 5: what her hope for the best possible future are Elpha,

932
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:04,479
Speaker 5: but can't admit that she doesn't want to be green.

933
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 5: She presents it as something that of course doesn't matter.

934
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 5: But you know that the Wizard, in his wisdom is

935
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 5: going to look at her and say, you know, since

936
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 5: other people are such big bigots and we don't want

937
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 5: this to get in the way of our important work,

938
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 5: could I maybe change that? And she'll be like, okay,

939
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 5: I guess if you have to. Like, even in the

940
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 5: privacy of being alone and expressing her deepest wishes, she

941
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 5: still can't own that wish. It's important to her on

942
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 5: so many levels that she not come out and admit

943
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 5: that she doesn't want to be green. And it's just

944
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 5: it's a beautiful piece of songwriting, it's a beautiful piece

945
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,879
Speaker 5: of characterization, and it's one of the most heartbreaking things

946
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 5: that happens in a kind of heartbreaking musical. Can you

947
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 5: imagine Judy Garland in the middle of Over the Rainbow singing,

948
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,399
Speaker 5: you know, and it doesn't really matter whether I get

949
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 5: up there, it's no big deal. It's just you know,

950
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 5: so maybe if it happened to happen, it would be

951
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 5: kind of okay, like that's not what that song is about.

952
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 6: It's not what it's about. But it is a kind of,

953
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 6: you know, naturally melancholy song for you know, I mean,

954
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 6: I want songs often are, but you know, while we're

955
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 6: on the subject of signature songs here, I do think

956
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 6: it's a kind of funny contrast that the first song

957
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,280
Speaker 6: in Wizard of Oz is the one we remember most,

958
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 6: and the song we remember most in Wicked is the

959
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 6: last song in the in the movie version. And as

960
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,479
Speaker 6: we said last week, like Wizard of Oz just does

961
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 6: not have a big ending number. It was apparently cut out.

962
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 6: But just like looking at it as a musical and

963
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 6: like kind of what we expect of the songs and

964
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 6: the musical, it is kind of like weirdly off balance

965
00:54:56,239 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 6: in a way that Wicked Part one not feel Wicked

966
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 6: as a whole. Taking part to go into it is

967
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 6: another story. But kicking off with the big beautiful I

968
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 6: Want song. Obviously it's not the first song, but that

969
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 6: being toward the beginning, but then sort of this other

970
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 6: or this new I want song, you know, the new

971
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 6: thing I want song being what ends at the movie

972
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 6: in such dramatic fashion. It's just interesting.

973
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 5: I don't see a define gravity is and I want song.

974
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 6: I don't know if there's a I'm going to do

975
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 6: so Yeah, it's.

976
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 5: The I'm gonna do song. It's the uh I've I've.

977
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 6: Here I Go, It's the here I Go song.

978
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 4: Here I Go?

979
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 5: Is that the term for it? Because I I feel

980
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 5: like it would be these conversations would be easier if

981
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 5: somebody would just come along and like, label, there's a

982
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 5: great musical biased on YouTube. That's the song in the

983
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 5: musical that nobody likes. Yeah, and if we if we

984
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 5: could just get terms for each of the most basic

985
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 5: fundamental building blocks of musicals, like not every song is

986
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 5: going to but we understand when we talk about the

987
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 5: I wish song or the villain song or the finale song,

988
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,879
Speaker 5: like I want more terms like that, and the here

989
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 5: I Go song is a great term for it.

990
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 6: I think I made that up, but I can't be

991
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 6: positive so I'm I'm not kind, I'm not ready to

992
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 6: take credit for it yet.

993
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 5: Well, either way, I'm adopting it. I'm putting it on

994
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 5: the big pin board. Okay, we have to have to

995
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:26,959
Speaker 5: reference that more often now. I think it's interesting if you,

996
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 5: you know, to kind of continue the conversation about I

997
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 5: want songs and these two wants. They want such different things.

998
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:35,760
Speaker 5: You know, both of them kind of want a fantasy

999
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 5: future for themselves where things are better. So just in

1000
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 5: the broadest abstract, they want similar things, but one of

1001
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 5: them couches it all in terms of sort of like

1002
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 5: Fuzzy Maybes. I pulled up the lyrics and like looked

1003
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 5: at them for a single really concrete thing that over

1004
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 5: the rainbow is wishing for, and it's just it's not there.

1005
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 5: It's just, uh, the clouds are far behind me, and

1006
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:07,800
Speaker 5: troubles melt like lemon drops. It's mostly just sky images

1007
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 5: and sky metaphors.

1008
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 6: It's like Homer's the Land of Chocolate.

1009
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 5: The Land of Chocolate is still a lot more specific.

1010
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 5: You know, it's it's got chocolate in it and you

1011
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 5: can eat it. There's a lot of stuff running around

1012
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 5: made out of chocolate, especial.

1013
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 8: Don't want to be generalized longing right, Yeah, and that

1014
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 8: feels like an adolescent emotion, like the sense that there

1015
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 8: is something.

1016
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 6: Better and bigger out there, but not yet having the

1017
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 6: life experience to quite explicate what it is, you know,

1018
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 6: or know how you're going to achieve it.

1019
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 4: It was it was the I'm not a girl, I'm

1020
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 4: not yet a woman of a day God.

1021
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 5: I just I think as sort of indicators of these

1022
00:57:56,280 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 5: two characters, the vagueness and the melanchol of over the Rainbow,

1023
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 5: just the very broad in general wish for something better

1024
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 5: and something different, versus like the extremely alpha ba let's

1025
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 5: run down the bullet point timeline, power point I have.

1026
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 5: I have forty seven slides here showing each stage of

1027
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 5: the progression of what I want to have next. It

1028
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 5: just both of those things say a lot about the

1029
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 5: characters singing them in terms of what they want. It's

1030
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 5: almost like these songs in musical's form an important function.

1031
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 4: There's something too, I just you know, and you know, like,

1032
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 4: because I complained way way back at the beginning of

1033
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 4: this episode about the my dissatisfaction with kind of the

1034
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 4: mechanics of Wicked, the feel like it just didn't have

1035
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 4: you know enough of a human touch in terms of

1036
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 4: the terms of the filmmaking. I felt there was something

1037
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 4: cold to me about it. And I think about the

1038
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 4: contrast contrast with Over the Rainbow specifically, and how such

1039
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 4: a movie moment that is, in the quietness of it

1040
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 4: and the focus that it, you know, how much it

1041
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 4: evokes from it's setting, how much it evokes from the

1042
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 4: close ups you get of of Julie Garland. It's just

1043
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 4: such a such a profound, isolated, you know, the movie

1044
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 4: moment that just that it's so extremely special, and I think,

1045
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 4: you know, you kind of live for those things. And

1046
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 4: I wonder in the whole of Wicked, if you get

1047
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 4: anything like that, you almost feel the film reaching for it.

1048
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 4: And in so many instances you can feel reaching it

1049
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 4: for it, at least like three or four different times

1050
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 4: in at the very end where you're thinking, is this

1051
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 4: the final image, this pristine thing? Or is this the

1052
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 4: final or is this the final thing that the movie's

1053
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 4: gonna cut on? And it just doesn't have the same pop.

1054
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 4: I mean, maybe that's just some some magical thing that

1055
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 4: just happens in a film some films, it doesn't happen

1056
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 4: in others. But it happens in The Wizard of Oz

1057
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 4: to think that.

1058
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 5: They wanted to the MGM people at mg and wanted

1059
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 5: to cut that scene because they felt it was undignified

1060
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 5: for Judy Garland to be singing in a farmyard. I

1061
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 5: cannot think of a bigger example of missing the point

1062
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 5: in cinematic history. Somebody's standing in a farmyard singing I

1063
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 5: want to be somewhere nicer and more beautiful than this,

1064
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 5: and some exact looking at it and saying, yeah, but

1065
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 5: she's standing on a farmyard, Like I have no idea

1066
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 5: what people are thinking, like where people come from with

1067
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 5: these ideas. But as far as the cut shot, I

1068
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,919
Speaker 5: don't know, Scott. I mean, I wasn't sitting there during

1069
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,280
Speaker 5: Wicked thinking is this frame in the middle of this

1070
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 5: song where he's going to cut? It's beautiful, therefore it

1071
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 5: should be a cup moment, you know. And when Pierro

1072
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 5: is dancing up the wall in the rotating bookshelves, I'm

1073
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 5: not like, oh, that's really well composed. Should he cut here?

1074
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 4: Like that's I don't know, how did you anticipate you

1075
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 4: feel like, Okay, this is the this is the end

1076
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 4: of the movie, Like that's the image and then it

1077
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 4: keeps going like that happened for me with with Wicked.

1078
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 4: But maybe that's a personal thing.

1079
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 5: I feel that at the end of a movie, I

1080
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 5: have definitely had the feeling of, you know, we're two

1081
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 5: hours into it and something significant happens and you think, oh,

1082
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 5: you bastard, don't you dare cut here? And sometimes they do,

1083
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 5: or you think, oh, please don't continue after that. Please

1084
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 5: just this is this has to be the last moment.

1085
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 5: And sometimes it is, and sometimes it's not. And sometimes

1086
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 5: they surprise you and they go on after that and

1087
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 5: it's still good. And sometimes you think, no, you should

1088
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 5: have cut five minutes ago. At the end of a movie. Yes,

1089
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 5: at the end of a sequence, no, or a scene

1090
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 5: or whatever. No that I don't ever do that.

1091
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 6: I mean, this isn't about like, you know, ending beats

1092
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 6: or cut shots. But to you know, go back to

1093
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 6: sort of the quiet power of over the Rainbow in

1094
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 6: contrast to you know, Wicked's overall lack of quietude. I

1095
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 6: do again want to go back to the Wizard and

1096
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 6: I and that moment I mentioned with the glass Mobile.

1097
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 6: I really did find that just a remarkable shot, and

1098
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 6: I think it's noteworthy that This is one of the

1099
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 6: few points in the movie where Cynthia Arrivo is alone.

1100
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 6: There's some stuff with Maddame Morrible at the beginning, but

1101
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 6: once you know the song fully kicks in, it's just her,

1102
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 6: you know, and it's a true solo and it's certainly

1103
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 6: not you know, restrained on the level of the somewhere

1104
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 6: over the rainbow sequence. But it does feel to me

1105
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 6: like the most personal song in the way it is presented.

1106
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 4: There's an intimacy there that isn't necessarily present in the

1107
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:35,160
Speaker 4: rest of the movie.

1108
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, And there's an intimacy even when she's running across

1109
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 5: the fields of Kansas which are wide open. Yeah, there's

1110
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 5: I mean, just going back again to the image of

1111
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:50,440
Speaker 5: the light shining through glass on her face and changing color.

1112
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 5: There's again, just like a really beautiful thoughtfulness to that

1113
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 5: in terms of just as she's singing about a way

1114
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:02,200
Speaker 5: in which she can magically ceased to be green, that

1115
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 5: doesn't require her to admit that she wants to not

1116
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 5: be green anymore. She's not like standing in front of

1117
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 5: a mirror, like looking through different panes of glass to

1118
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 5: see what she should look like a different color. She's

1119
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:18,680
Speaker 5: not using a magical effect. She's not doing anything that

1120
01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:23,240
Speaker 5: would change her color. It's just happening. It just happens

1121
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 5: to be happening because of where she's standing and because

1122
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 5: of where the light is. But there's a reason that

1123
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 5: she's lingering in that bower where all of this colored

1124
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 5: light is falling, and there's a reason that she is

1125
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,040
Speaker 5: looking into the mirror and just happening to see what

1126
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 5: she would look like with this color falling on her face.

1127
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 5: And again, it's just it's a very clever visual metaphor

1128
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 5: for the way she's not owning what she wants, but

1129
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 5: she's admitting on some level for the first time that

1130
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 5: this is something she wants. We're running ridiculously long on this.

1131
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 5: Maybe we need to split this into two halves, have

1132
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 5: Genevieve sing a big song and then just cut it

1133
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:03,439
Speaker 5: there and have the rest of the conversation come back.

1134
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:08,880
Speaker 4: Yes a year from them, Yes, let's do that.

1135
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:11,919
Speaker 6: Let me ready, my batt'll cry.

1136
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 5: It surprises me that you're surprised that that would be

1137
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 5: in the trailer like that is the equivalent of showing

1138
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 5: the base blowing up at the end of the war movie.

1139
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 5: You put your biggest explosion in the trailer. But I

1140
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 5: feel like we would be doing ourselves a disservice if

1141
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:33,600
Speaker 5: we didn't acknowledge that. In both of these movies, you know,

1142
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:36,600
Speaker 5: we've looked at how the protagonists are different in terms

1143
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 5: of what they want, how they express themselves, where they go,

1144
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 5: what their journeys are, what they get out of them

1145
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 5: at the end. They're such different movies in approach, in

1146
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 5: part because one of them is literally created as an

1147
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 5: inverse or the other just a direct the villain is

1148
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:56,479
Speaker 5: the hero story, but at the same time, they both

1149
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 5: fundamentally center on the fact that the Wizard is a liar,

1150
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,200
Speaker 5: a cheat, a fraud and an asshole.

1151
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 4: Is he Oh?

1152
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1153
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 4: The first in The Wizard of was Yes.

1154
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 5: He lures the that whole group in and he promises

1155
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 5: that he's going to give them everything that they want

1156
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,480
Speaker 5: if they just go kill the Witch, and they do

1157
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 5: it and come back to him and he's like, yeah,

1158
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 5: I can't do any of that stuff.

1159
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 4: I lied to you, Kenny. He shows them that they

1160
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 4: you know, that they have all these things.

1161
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 5: All right well, much like Dorothy herself, much like the

1162
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 5: Scarecrow and Tin Mannon and Lion, the Wizard had it

1163
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 5: in himself all along once he allowed himself to trust himself.

1164
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 5: But he knew for a fact when he sent them

1165
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 5: off to kill the witch, that he had no magical

1166
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 5: powers and couldn't give them any of these things. And

1167
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 5: in the end, all he really does is show them

1168
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 5: that they already have these things themselves. Yeah, it's a

1169
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 5: big sort of meta thing where they're all experiencing the

1170
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 5: same The answer was within you all along something something

1171
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 5: real thing.

1172
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 4: The friends they got a metal, he's got like a

1173
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 4: little little heart necklace. What what is it? What is

1174
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 4: it you're looking for? Here? They come away, They come

1175
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 4: away with many fabulous prizes.

1176
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 6: It's like when you go to the dentist and you

1177
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 6: get to pick something out of the treasure box.

1178
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 5: So, okay, Genevie, you you got on my case. In

1179
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 5: part one of this discussion for Elmira, Gulch justified, you're

1180
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 5: not going to get on Scott's case for the wizard, perfectly,

1181
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 5: good guy.

1182
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 6: I am getting on no one's case. I'm just gently

1183
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 6: pushing back on observations from people I love and respect.

1184
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 6: But as as to mediating this classic Scott Tasha disagreement,

1185
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 6: I would say that I think kind of as with

1186
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 6: and Uh, the movie doesn't think of the Wizard as

1187
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 6: a villain, you know, and and I think we can,

1188
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 6: certainly as viewers, interpret his actions as those of a liar, cheating,

1189
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 6: a scoundrel. I think the earlier scene in Kansas when

1190
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 6: we meet mister Marvel, is that what is he called?

1191
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:22,480
Speaker 5: Profess?

1192
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 6: Yeah? Yeah, of course he didn't.

1193
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 5: He didn't go to liar asshole school for eight years

1194
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 5: to be called mister Marvel.

1195
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 4: He is a lovable flim flam man and you know,

1196
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 4: uh is a fascist.

1197
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 6: But yeah, yeah, this this is kind of what I'm saying,

1198
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 6: Like The Wizard of Oz like introduces the quote unquote

1199
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 6: real world, real world version of the Wizard as this

1200
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 6: sort of avunculer, to use your word, Tasha figure that

1201
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 6: ultimately wants what's best for Dorothy. Again, he he sends

1202
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 6: her home, you know, and he does so through some trickery.

1203
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:06,280
Speaker 6: So I think, like it's the film just kind of

1204
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 6: sees him as someone with ultimately as someone a flim

1205
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:14,200
Speaker 6: flamm man, as Scott says, but with ultimately like good intentions,

1206
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 6: whereas the Wizard in Wicked is anything button. I think

1207
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 6: Gary maguire was as with so much of the story,

1208
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 6: just kind of extrapolating out those feelings that you get

1209
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 6: from from The Wizard of Oz, from Glinda and from

1210
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 6: the Wizard. And yeah, well what was the question that there.

1211
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 5: Wasn't a question, it was. It was a statement that

1212
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 5: these two movies are radically different in so many regards.

1213
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 5: But they both kind of but if you want the

1214
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 5: question version, but don't they both regard the Wizard as

1215
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 5: equally dishonest. But I like your answer that's he's maybe

1216
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 5: equally dishonest in both versions, but he's not evil in

1217
01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 5: the Wizard of Oz. He's just he's not the answer

1218
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 5: because they're still seeking the answer after him, and to

1219
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:05,040
Speaker 5: some degree, the answer for all of them is it

1220
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 5: was within you all along, and he can guide them there.

1221
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 5: But he can't. He can't wave a magic wand and

1222
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:12,880
Speaker 5: give them what they want because they already have what

1223
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:14,240
Speaker 5: they want, they just don't realize it.

1224
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:17,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, some of us don't have magical powers.

1225
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:19,400
Speaker 4: Some of us have to get along on a little

1226
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 4: razzle dazzle.

1227
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:24,920
Speaker 5: I mean, as somebody who was in the first part

1228
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 5: of this conversation indicating a dislike of Chicago, it is

1229
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:31,920
Speaker 5: interesting to me that you're quoting it here at the end.

1230
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 5: This says to me that we need a big finale

1231
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 5: number that mirrors the first half of this in a

1232
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:43,920
Speaker 5: bookend y kind of way. I'm going to leave it

1233
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 5: to everybody to figure out what that musical number is

1234
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:46,680
Speaker 5: going to be.

1235
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 6: We recorded it, but I cut it in impost because

1236
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 6: it was running so long.

1237
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 5: Jeez, why did you blow a month and a half

1238
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 5: budget almost recording that song that we're going to cut now? Well,

1239
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 5: as a I said, this conversation is running very long.

1240
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 5: I think we're going to talk for another hour and

1241
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 5: a half, but we're going to cut this in half.

1242
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:08,800
Speaker 5: You can come back a year from now to hear

1243
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:13,320
Speaker 5: the other half of our conversation about Wicked, or who knows,

1244
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 5: maybe a year from now we'll take up Wicked Part

1245
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 5: two and contrast it with something else, maybe a film

1246
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 5: that we might just talk about in a minute. The

1247
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,799
Speaker 5: Wizard of Oz is currently streaming on Max. It's available

1248
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 5: for digital rental and purchase on various platforms. It's available

1249
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:32,479
Speaker 5: in physical media, ranging from a no frills DDD up

1250
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:36,360
Speaker 5: to an eighty fifth anniversary four case deal book collector's package,

1251
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:40,679
Speaker 5: Pick Your Poison, Wicked is currently defying gravity in the theaters.

1252
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 5: We'll be right back with your Next Picture Show.

1253
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:45,719
Speaker 6: I can't believe we get through all of that and

1254
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 6: I never got to say anything about the fact that

1255
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 6: the Wicked Witch of the West just leaves a bucket

1256
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 6: of water sitting around to be thrown Yeah, because why.

1257
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I think in the larger Wicked of

1258
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:05,599
Speaker 5: verse it's alla set up for her faking her own death.

1259
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 4: But regardless, it's like, it's like those aliens and signs,

1260
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 4: They're like, this looks like a great planet.

1261
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:14,000
Speaker 5: For it's covered with water. Let's go invade this house

1262
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,840
Speaker 5: where there's glasses of water just sitting around everywhere.

1263
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 3: That seems safe.

1264
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:30,679
Speaker 5: Finally, it's time to recommend film or film related item

1265
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:33,080
Speaker 5: that compliments this set of episodes. We call it your

1266
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,120
Speaker 5: Next Picture Show in the hopes that it'll put some

1267
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:40,760
Speaker 5: interesting choices on your radar. Scott, I believe Wizard of

1268
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 5: Oz was the very first adaptation of L. Frank Baum's

1269
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 5: Wizard of Oz, ever and the very last one. Right,

1270
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 5: not true?

1271
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:51,760
Speaker 4: Not true. This would normally be that this would be

1272
01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 4: the point, if you were here, that Keith Phipps would

1273
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:57,639
Speaker 4: step up and talk about all of the Oz films

1274
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:01,120
Speaker 4: that he saw for a list for Vulture. So I'm

1275
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:03,240
Speaker 4: going to try to come in. I mean, they were

1276
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 4: not all hugely successful or none of them. Nothing has

1277
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:10,679
Speaker 4: been successful that he is that he has done, which shah,

1278
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 4: you know, brings a new meaning to the term box

1279
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:17,000
Speaker 4: office bomb, right right, Okay.

1280
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:18,479
Speaker 5: We knew that you were going to try to cram

1281
01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:18,960
Speaker 5: it in there.

1282
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 4: I got a box office bomb. But I have to.

1283
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 4: I have to. Here's here's my long winded way of

1284
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:30,400
Speaker 4: saying this. So I I work on this list updated

1285
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 4: list for The New York Times about the fifty best

1286
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 4: TV shows and movies on Disney Plus. And when I

1287
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 4: first did when I do my first list, you wanted

1288
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 4: like a nice mix up. You know, it's like catalog

1289
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 4: titles and U. And one of the catalog titles I

1290
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:50,320
Speaker 4: included was the nineteen eighty five movie Return to Oz.

1291
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:53,679
Speaker 4: And it's still on the list. I mean, titles cycle

1292
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:57,800
Speaker 4: in and out. I have refused to replace Return to

1293
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:00,519
Speaker 4: Oz on the list because I feel like every child

1294
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 4: should have an opportunity to be completely scarred by the

1295
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 4: experience of seeing Return to Oz, which which kind of

1296
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 4: goes up there is kind of up there with the

1297
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:13,800
Speaker 4: with the five Thousand Fingers of Doctor t in terms

1298
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:17,479
Speaker 4: of just of course the Doctor Seuss film of just

1299
01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:21,599
Speaker 4: really being as dark a children's film as you could

1300
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:24,760
Speaker 4: possibly want to see. Return to Ozz made nineteen eighty

1301
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 4: five by Walter Merch. It was his directorial debut. Merch

1302
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:33,679
Speaker 4: was extremely well known and respected as an editor. In fact,

1303
01:13:33,720 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 4: he wrote a very famous and essential book about editing.

1304
01:13:37,320 --> 01:13:41,320
Speaker 4: He had edited films like The Conversation and Apocalypse Now

1305
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:43,799
Speaker 4: and things like that. But he did return to Oz

1306
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 4: and it's become a It was a It was not

1307
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:51,040
Speaker 4: a hit for ovious for reasons that are obviously if

1308
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 4: you ever ever ever watch it, But it has a

1309
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 4: pretty significant cult following for it's sort of half wondrous,

1310
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:02,360
Speaker 4: half nightmarish vision of al Frank Baum and which in

1311
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:06,160
Speaker 4: which Dorothy played by a young Feruza Balk, goes back

1312
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 4: to a far less enchanting Oz with the yellow brick

1313
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:13,760
Speaker 4: road and the Emerald City and ruins her. All of

1314
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 4: our old friends turned to stone, and the land patrolled

1315
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:23,839
Speaker 4: by people called wheelies who are who have wheels instead

1316
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:28,200
Speaker 4: of hands and feet. And you know, I just I

1317
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:31,080
Speaker 4: don't want to say I can't you know, it's just

1318
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:34,599
Speaker 4: it is a one of those movies. I think there's

1319
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:39,240
Speaker 4: a certain brand of of children's story and I think

1320
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 4: it goes maybe goes back to the Grim Firy tales

1321
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:45,519
Speaker 4: where it's like, we need to kind of shock you

1322
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 4: a little bit, rattle you a bit as a as

1323
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:50,439
Speaker 4: a as a as a child to kind of, uh,

1324
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:53,200
Speaker 4: you know, get you to engage with this fantasy and

1325
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:55,719
Speaker 4: return to Oz. Is that I think it does work

1326
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 4: on its own terms, but it is. It's a It's

1327
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 4: an incredible film to see if you like movies and

1328
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:04,599
Speaker 4: just kind of have an appreciation for how far Walter

1329
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 4: Merch was willing to, you know, upend any expectation you

1330
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:12,960
Speaker 4: might have of an OZ movie. It is not reassuring.

1331
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 4: There's no over the rainbow type of moments. It is

1332
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:19,320
Speaker 4: it is dark and bleak, and there's a lot that

1333
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:21,840
Speaker 4: Dorothy has to kind of get put through to get

1334
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:24,200
Speaker 4: to the other side. So return to Oz. It's on

1335
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:27,599
Speaker 4: Disney Plus, it's been there for been there since day one.

1336
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 4: I guess it's not going anywhere. I just want to

1337
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:32,680
Speaker 4: make sure that you that it's that you know, you

1338
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 4: you put on the search terms and find it if

1339
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:39,920
Speaker 4: you haven't seen it. It's because I guarantee you will

1340
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:41,559
Speaker 4: never have seen anything quite like it.

1341
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:42,800
Speaker 5: How is it on?

1342
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:46,880
Speaker 4: I want songs, very poor, very poor. If memory serves.

1343
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 5: All right, well, I guess I will sing and I

1344
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 5: want song about how I want more songs in return

1345
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:59,559
Speaker 5: to Oz. That's it for this edition of the Next

1346
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 5: Picture Show, but we'll be back next week with another

1347
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 5: set of episodes. Genevieve, can you tell us about those

1348
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:05,320
Speaker 5: next episodes?

1349
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:09,240
Speaker 6: Best known for his lyrical twenty eighteen documentary Hale County,

1350
01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 6: This Morning, This Evening, filmmaker Ramel Ross recently made his

1351
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:16,800
Speaker 6: narrative feature debut with Nickel Boys, an immediately acclaimed adaptation

1352
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:20,800
Speaker 6: of Colson Whitehead's Pulitzer winning twenty nineteen novel. Inspired by

1353
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:23,479
Speaker 6: true events, the film largely takes place in the nineteen

1354
01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:27,160
Speaker 6: sixties at a Florida reformed school whose residence, particularly its

1355
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:31,360
Speaker 6: black residents, live like prisoners and sometimes face grim consequences

1356
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:35,720
Speaker 6: for perceived transgressions. Focusing on characters yearning for freedom and

1357
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:38,040
Speaker 6: up against an unjust system in the midst of the

1358
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 6: Civil Rights era, Nickel Boys might have put us in

1359
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 6: mind of the defiant ones, even if Stanley Kramer's nineteen

1360
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:47,000
Speaker 6: fifty eight dramas starring Sidney Poitier and Tony Curtis as

1361
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:51,040
Speaker 6: shackled prisoners attempting to escape, wasn't explicitly referenced within the

1362
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 6: film itself, but since it is explicitly referenced to Nickel Boys,

1363
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 6: we figure there wasn't a better movie with which to Pairrot.

1364
01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 5: For now, we welcome your feedback on the Wizard of Oz,

1365
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:02,240
Speaker 5: Wicked Part one, and anything else film related you'd like

1366
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:04,519
Speaker 5: to talk about. Email us at comments at next Picture

1367
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:06,679
Speaker 5: Show dot net, or leave us a voicemail at seven

1368
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:11,040
Speaker 5: seven three two three four nine seven three zero before

1369
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,360
Speaker 5: we close out this week's episode. Where can we find

1370
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:16,719
Speaker 5: everyone these days? Scott and I think you can also

1371
01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:20,160
Speaker 5: speak for our absent host Keith giving a cross over

1372
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:21,559
Speaker 5: there Where can we find you these Days?

1373
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:26,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, so Keith and I. We primarily write for our newsletter,

1374
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:30,439
Speaker 4: The Reveal. It's the real dot substack dot com. Lots

1375
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:33,640
Speaker 4: of new pieces up every every week, always always to

1376
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 4: two big features, a big review day, lots of things

1377
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:41,000
Speaker 4: to go to go through, and a wonderful community. If

1378
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:45,759
Speaker 4: you do want to join, you can find my work

1379
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:50,559
Speaker 4: at also at the New York Times, Vulture, Guardian and

1380
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:54,839
Speaker 4: other fine publications. You find Keith at Vulture, TV Guide,

1381
01:17:55,280 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 4: The Ringer and other publications. You can find me on

1382
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:03,719
Speaker 4: both of us. On Blue Sky, I'm I'm at Scott

1383
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:07,639
Speaker 4: Tobias Keith. He is at k Phipps three thousand. I'm

1384
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:14,120
Speaker 4: no longer on Twitter by accounts deactivated and uh it's

1385
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:17,320
Speaker 4: you know, so I haven't completely just you know, nuked it,

1386
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:22,559
Speaker 4: but but I've ported all of my tweets over, previously

1387
01:18:22,560 --> 01:18:26,920
Speaker 4: published tweets over to Blue Sky and uh, and I've

1388
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:29,639
Speaker 4: deactivated it. So uh so you can really just find

1389
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:31,519
Speaker 4: me on Blue Sky and it seems like finding everybody

1390
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:34,839
Speaker 4: else there too. It's post election, it's been. It's amazing

1391
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:39,960
Speaker 4: how how much it resembles Twitter during better days. So

1392
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:41,000
Speaker 4: that's where you care.

1393
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:43,840
Speaker 5: How how does is there a tool when us.

1394
01:18:44,200 --> 01:18:45,200
Speaker 6: I want to know about that too.

1395
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:49,200
Speaker 4: It's called Blue Arc Blue Arc Dot app. You have

1396
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:52,080
Speaker 4: to pay a little bit of scratch, but depending on

1397
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:56,360
Speaker 4: how much of your b l U E A r

1398
01:18:56,479 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 4: K is the is the app? And uh biblical exactly well,

1399
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:06,520
Speaker 4: exactly right, it is biblical, and I think that's appropriately

1400
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 4: So we're all trying to march two by two over

1401
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:11,800
Speaker 4: from Twitter to Blue Sky.

1402
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:16,800
Speaker 6: What about you, Genevieve, Well, I guess you set me

1403
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:18,679
Speaker 6: up for the big news, which is that I am

1404
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:23,200
Speaker 6: currently somewhat active on Blue Sky. I have been posting

1405
01:19:23,600 --> 01:19:27,680
Speaker 6: things and getting just say posting what is I refuse No,

1406
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:30,240
Speaker 6: I refuse to call it that. Scott Now, I will

1407
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 6: not sorry, I'm not.

1408
01:19:33,439 --> 01:19:35,680
Speaker 5: Going to do it. Does not need to. She can

1409
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:39,679
Speaker 5: do what she wants. And I am not gonna get

1410
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:41,840
Speaker 5: on board for enforcing what you're trying to get to

1411
01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:43,640
Speaker 5: get to enforced, because then I'd have to do it too.

1412
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:51,160
Speaker 6: Posting you post on x now, I do nothing on

1413
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:55,360
Speaker 6: on x now. But I may potentially port over some

1414
01:19:55,400 --> 01:19:59,040
Speaker 6: of my old posts to blue Sky, because man, I

1415
01:19:59,040 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 6: I need to redevelop my writing down whatever thought that

1416
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:04,680
Speaker 6: comes to my head and publishing it muscle, because I've

1417
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:08,920
Speaker 6: definitely gotten out out of practice over my years of

1418
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 6: ignoring the service formerly known as Twitter.

1419
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:13,679
Speaker 5: But I digress.

1420
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:17,840
Speaker 6: Yes, I am on Blue Sky at genoviev Coski and

1421
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 6: I am still the TV editor at Vulture and also

1422
01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:25,599
Speaker 6: still hanging around on Instagram also at Geneviev Koski.

1423
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:30,639
Speaker 5: Tasha, I am the entertainment editor over at Polygon dot com.

1424
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:33,760
Speaker 5: I am one Blue Sky at Tasha Robinson. There's been

1425
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:37,000
Speaker 5: a giant influx of people over on Blue Sky, and

1426
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 5: not only do we welcome you, there's been a really

1427
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:45,320
Speaker 5: concerted effort among Blue Sky users to shut down some

1428
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 5: of the more annoying nonsense that goes on over on

1429
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:53,960
Speaker 5: x It's great. I really enjoy the community over there.

1430
01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:58,760
Speaker 5: Film Twitter has been reborn and recreated. Come join us.

1431
01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:01,519
Speaker 5: The water is fine. Stay updated on the Next Picture

1432
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:03,920
Speaker 5: Show at next pictureshow dot net and on Blue Sky

1433
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:07,920
Speaker 5: at the Next Picture Show. Get bonus content and opendiscussion

1434
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:11,519
Speaker 5: at Patreon dot com, slash Next Picture Show, and as always,

1435
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:15,040
Speaker 5: we appreciate your ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

1436
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:18,000
Speaker 5: wherever you listen to this show. Thanks to Dan the

1437
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 5: Bake Jakes for his assistance in producing this podcast. The

1438
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:22,400
Speaker 5: Next Picture Show is proud to be part of the

1439
01:21:22,400 --> 01:21:25,479
Speaker 5: Film Spotting family of podcasts. Please tune in next time