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Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.

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Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone,

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Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Today we

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Speaker 2: are continuing our conversation with Dope Sick creator, executive producer.

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Speaker 1: And writer Danny Strong.

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Speaker 2: We'll dive deeper into Purdue Pharma, corporate accountability, and the

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Speaker 2: real life events that inspired one of television's most powerful

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Speaker 2: true crime dramas. What sort of responsibility did you feel

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Speaker 2: to the families of the victims, for example.

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Speaker 3: Incredible responsibility, But I felt, you know, to me, the

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Speaker 3: show was sort of a tribute to them, but also

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Speaker 3: you know, when we were making it that it really

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Speaker 3: had felt like they had all gotten away with it. Yes,

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Speaker 3: now that there hadn't been this reckoning that did come eventually,

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Speaker 3: although they still no one's ever been charged criminally.

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Speaker 4: But the show shows.

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Speaker 3: How they how they how they the prosecutors wanted to

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Speaker 3: charge people criminally, and how they clip through their fingers,

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Speaker 3: you know, and just how it all slipped through their fingers.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: But but I wanted I very much viewed the show

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Speaker 3: as the trial that Purdue Pharma never got right. So

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Speaker 3: I wanted to lay out I wanted to lay out

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Speaker 3: all the deception in a way that just showed the

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Speaker 3: audience and the country and the world right whoever was

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Speaker 3: watching this, like this is how it happened, this is

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Speaker 3: how the climes were committed.

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Speaker 4: So there's in so that was a big part of it.

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Speaker 3: And so in a way, you know, I felt like

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Speaker 3: I was a prosecutor making a case and that the

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Speaker 3: show was the case, right, but I also wanted to

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Speaker 3: be fair to everyone, where some prosecutors goal wasn't to

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Speaker 3: be fair and the goal is to just get the

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Speaker 3: guilty verdict right where where I'm also making a piece

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Speaker 3: of art and a piece of drama, you know, And

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Speaker 3: so it's sort of that I want to show insight.

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Speaker 3: I really wanted to with Richard Zackler. I wanted you

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Speaker 3: to understand pressures he was thunder in ways that he felt,

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Speaker 3: you know, his own sense of pain and and and

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Speaker 3: what he was going through.

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Speaker 1: And wanting to achieve.

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Speaker 2: Like that becomes very clear that this is again why

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Speaker 2: this is so genius, because it really does get into

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Speaker 2: the details of the family and as outrageous and despicable

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Speaker 2: as their behavior and choices were, it's like he wants

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Speaker 2: to he wants to achieve for his dat like, he

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Speaker 2: wants to be better than his dad, you know, he

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Speaker 2: wants to make more money, be more successful, be It's.

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Speaker 3: Just yeah, and he's also so disliked by the family, right, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, but he's making so much money for all

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Speaker 3: of them, right. He's he's, he's, he's, he's he's the

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Speaker 3: one doing all the work. He's the one that's driving this,

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Speaker 3: he's the force behind it. And they all seem to

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Speaker 3: really dislike him. And this is all based on research, right,

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Speaker 3: And and what does that feel like?

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Speaker 4: You know, what what is that? What is he going

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Speaker 4: through with that?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: So that was you know, and from what I understand,

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Speaker 3: he's intensely ostracized now that they sort of view him

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Speaker 3: as the man that brought sort of the downfall to

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Speaker 3: the family and brought them down, although you know, they

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Speaker 3: were all making millions and millions from the products. I

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Speaker 3: had a source inside tell me that by two thousand

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Speaker 3: and one, two thousand and two, you know, upper management,

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Speaker 3: they just they didn't care anymore. They just wanted to

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Speaker 3: make as much money as they could, and that there

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Speaker 3: was this sense that it could all come apart at

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Speaker 3: any moment, and that there was because they were there

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Speaker 3: were sort of actions taken in nineteen ninety nine, two

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Speaker 3: thousand and and it just then became came about just

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Speaker 3: hitting the gas. And then when they when the prosecutions

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Speaker 3: didn't happen, when they when the case, you know, they

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Speaker 3: pled the top executives pled to misdemeanors. You know, that's

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Speaker 3: ultimately how it was resolved in two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 4: What did they do.

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Speaker 3: They tripled down on all on on, on all the tactics,

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Speaker 3: which the show doesn't even cover. That's posts the show.

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Speaker 3: And I had a scene where we had that where

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Speaker 3: we explained that, and it was so depressing and so maddening.

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Speaker 3: I just thought that the audience has been through.

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Speaker 1: Enough, right, Let's spare them this.

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Speaker 3: Let's spare them that they just made things even work,

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Speaker 3: you know, after this and then that, and that that's

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Speaker 3: already public fact, you know, because that they were then

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Speaker 3: they were Then you know, there was another because they

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Speaker 3: pled guilty. The company pled guilty to multiple felonies in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and six, two thousand and seven, and then

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Speaker 3: they did it again in twenty nineteen because they blew

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Speaker 3: off everything they said they were going to do or

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Speaker 3: much of what they said they were to do in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and the guilty plea in twix and seven,

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Speaker 3: So it happened to them again, you know, another set

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Speaker 3: of guilty place, but individuals have still never been charged

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Speaker 3: with crimes.

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Speaker 2: First of all, also reminds me of, like, in a

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Speaker 2: very scary way of AI and digital things, that like,

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Speaker 2: at a certain point, these companies are just like, we

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Speaker 2: just need to make as much money as we can,

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Speaker 2: and then realizing.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, the robots might take over our whole lives.

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Speaker 2: You know, but there's that kind of break in your

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Speaker 2: moral you know, your moral standard somehow to just say

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Speaker 2: it becomes very selfish obviously, but also this kind of

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Speaker 2: like like how much of it do you think is

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Speaker 2: greed versus denial that it was doing the wrong thing.

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Speaker 3: I think it's greed, That's just my opinion. But I

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Speaker 3: just think they knew, they knew what was happening from

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Speaker 3: the very beginning. You know that they that that these

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Speaker 3: marketing practices were deceptive. You know that they were claiming

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Speaker 3: the drug was not addictive, they were pushing higher dosages,

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Speaker 3: and partly because not only was the drug addicted, but

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Speaker 3: it would wear out, So you you it would become

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Speaker 3: less stop being effective, so you had to up the dose, right,

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Speaker 3: and and well a higher dose is the same amount

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Speaker 3: for them to manufacture, basically, but they charged twice as much.

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Speaker 3: Then then you charged twice as much for the next

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Speaker 3: But it's basically the same manufacturing cost. Right, So it

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Speaker 3: became just a pure money making operation. And the drug

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Speaker 3: I was talking about the beginning, ms Conton was basically

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Speaker 3: used as sort of is just for as a cancer

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Speaker 3: drug and is an hospice, end of life type of

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Speaker 3: type of that you would take. Well, that's a very

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Speaker 3: small market. So the whole, the whole plan, the whole

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Speaker 3: sort of conceit of OxyContin, the non addictive opioid, was

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Speaker 3: how to break into the chronic pain market, and they

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Speaker 3: then they push it into moderate pain, you know, for

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Speaker 3: migraine headaches. You know, an addictive opioid for migraine headaches, right, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And part of it was the how they they invented

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Speaker 2: sort of you know lin lingo and language like breakthrough

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Speaker 2: pain and individualize the dose, blame the abuser. So it

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Speaker 2: sort of sounds very legitimate, like these are medical researched claims.

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Speaker 2: And then you just keep you just keep using those words,

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Speaker 2: and then it becomes common, Oh, yes, you have breakthrough pain,

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Speaker 2: so you've you clearly.

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Speaker 1: That's not a problem.

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Speaker 4: You have to up the dose.

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Speaker 1: You just have to take more.

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Speaker 3: You just have to take more medication. Right, And that

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Speaker 3: in all roads led to upping the dose, right, you know,

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Speaker 3: it was sort of all roads led to upping the dose.

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Speaker 3: But the stuff, you know, the facts that are so

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Speaker 3: damming is the falsification of tests and graphs and yes,

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Speaker 3: oh that that elements and that was so important to

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Speaker 3: me to get that into the show.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there's a there's a chart, a graph that shows

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Speaker 2: very clearly the the trajectory of like when the drug

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Speaker 2: wears off and they manipulate it such that it looks

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Speaker 2: like it's sort of like a rainbow arc, when really

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Speaker 2: it's a it's a mountain peak up and down, like

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Speaker 2: a very steep mountain, and if you look at the

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Speaker 2: side and then it's like one of these things where.

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Speaker 1: You don't And the fact that that is so.

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Speaker 2: Specific and so nefarious and just a lie, like how

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Speaker 2: how do you think that these doctors didn't see that?

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Speaker 1: Like how do you think.

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Speaker 3: They That's a big question, you know, and some people

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Speaker 3: have a hard time accepting that the doctors didn't know

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Speaker 3: what was going on. You know, the I remember one

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Speaker 3: of the doctors I interviewed, he just said, he said, hey,

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Speaker 3: not everyone got addicted. So it wasn't as you know,

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Speaker 3: it would be. It would be a percentage of the patients,

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Speaker 3: but there'd be several patients that would be fine and

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Speaker 3: they would take it and then they'd get off of it,

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Speaker 3: you know, they'd stop taken it. Right, But so you know,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't it wasn't one hundred percent, but that they

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Speaker 3: just believed, they believed the con right, you know, they

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Speaker 3: just they believed the con. They fell for the con

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Speaker 3: and it was it wasn't just it just it was

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Speaker 3: so clever in the deception, and that there were there

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Speaker 3: would be many articles written in prestigious medical journals about it.

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Speaker 3: They were there would be they would form these groups,

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Speaker 3: they would finance these these pain society groups, and then

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Speaker 3: and then they would hire doctors, right that would then

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Speaker 3: promote the non addictive lie, and then it would be

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Speaker 3: quoted in the articles. So there would be you know,

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Speaker 3: there'd be a lot of data that they could point

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Speaker 3: to that.

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Speaker 1: They were paying these people to create.

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Speaker 3: This exactly, So they basically create the Pain Society, and

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Speaker 3: then the Pain Society would then would then you know,

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Speaker 3: promote and approve the drug, and then and that promotion

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Speaker 3: would be used in literature and pamphlets, you know. And

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Speaker 3: there was a key doctor whose name I can't remember

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Speaker 3: who who was sort of one of the great villains

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Speaker 3: of this story because he was just this highly regarded

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Speaker 3: doctor that would go all.

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Speaker 4: Over the country and speak at these on behalf.

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Speaker 3: Of oxycon and he was so he just was he

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Speaker 3: just was this very you know, admired, prestigious doctor who

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Speaker 3: who I and he eventually recanted. He eventually did have

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Speaker 3: a crisis of conscience, I think, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure in maybe twenty twelve and said that they were wrong.

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Speaker 1: A little bit late, a little bit late.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, there's a character like this in the series.

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Speaker 1: Also, it's the.

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Speaker 4: Actual guy in the series. I use the name in

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Speaker 4: the ship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, yes, the guy that speaks for them,

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Speaker 3: Russell Portnoy.

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Speaker 1: Russell Portnoy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, later stated in twenty twelve, didn't I say, twenty twelve,

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Speaker 3: do I get them?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: You did?

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Speaker 3: Hold on, what was this pseudo addiction? Remember we were

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Speaker 3: talking about the phrase.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the language, the languageguage pseudo addiction.

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Speaker 3: That it's diabolical, you know, it's the phrase and what

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Speaker 3: pseudo addiction, What that phrase was was that it was

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Speaker 3: someone's not addicted. They're just giving the stive of symptoms.

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Speaker 3: And so what they need to get over that is

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Speaker 3: they need higher tore, the need more dosages, and so

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Speaker 3: they're not actually addicted. It's pseudo addiction, right, and that

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Speaker 3: we have a whole episode called pseudo Yeah, it's like.

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Speaker 1: The bastardization of language. It's just like I it's it's wild.

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Speaker 1: It's very cult like to me, like it feels very

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Speaker 1: like a.

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Speaker 3: Coll And that's very well said, because I remember feeling

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Speaker 3: that way when I heard about sort of the inner

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Speaker 3: workings of the company and the farmer reps and the doctors,

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Speaker 3: and anyone who questioned anything or whatever, speak out or

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Speaker 3: anything would be fired.

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Speaker 4: You know, so you're you're.

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Speaker 3: Out right the second you're out, the second that you say, hey,

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Speaker 3: I don't think this data is correct, or you know

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Speaker 3: we're getting reports or that that addiction rates are going up.

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Speaker 4: You know, if you didn't toe the party line, you

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Speaker 4: were out.

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Speaker 3: The farmer reps were making so much money because they

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Speaker 3: were they were drug dealers. Basically the drug was highly addictive.

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Speaker 3: They were selling higher dosages and there would be these clinics,

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Speaker 3: these these these clinics where the prescribing would be astronomical

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Speaker 3: and they just they you know, a lot more in Florida.

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Speaker 3: There was a famous one in New Orleans.

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Speaker 2: One of my one of my notes here is the

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Speaker 2: Florida of it all? And with exclamation points, how at

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Speaker 2: the one moment when Caitlin's character and the oh that

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Speaker 2: also a great actor who played the drug dealer partner

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Speaker 2: person that goes on the Escapades with that they go

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Speaker 2: down to Florida because the laws were looser.

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Speaker 1: Was that it you could get the drugs easier.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was in Florida. They could prescribe and sell

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Speaker 3: in the same building. So because of that, yeah, So

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Speaker 3: because of that, it was you know, it was it

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Speaker 3: was your one stop shop, right people. It was called

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Speaker 3: The Pharmacist. Is the documentary? Uh, it's the story of

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Speaker 3: Dan Schneider who it's a fantastic three part documentary and

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Speaker 3: it covers pretty pharma. But his story is really powerful

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Speaker 3: and it and it takes you into one of these

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Speaker 3: these pill mill pain clinics where the prescribing is just

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Speaker 3: sort of astronomical, and those doctors know exactly what they're doing, right,

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Speaker 3: corrupt doctors who are just trying to sell as much

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Speaker 3: as possible. And there, you know, over and over again,

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Speaker 3: the anecdotes on on pill mill doctors was they were addicted.

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Speaker 4: Themselves themselves, right, Yeah, it was. That was that was.

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Speaker 2: That's a really strong part of the series as well,

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Speaker 2: showing there's something. I think it's like episode four is

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Speaker 2: when the addiction part really starts to rev up, where

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Speaker 2: we see what's happening with everyone and it's just, uh,

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Speaker 2: it's very very well done. But those scenes of people

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Speaker 2: waiting on line outside of the pharmacy or outside of

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Speaker 2: the doctor's office, and the frustration of the DEA agent

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Speaker 2: and just like trying to get someone to listen to her,

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Speaker 2: like I can't I can't imagine the how frustrating that

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Speaker 2: person's existence must be, you know, to so passionately believe

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Speaker 2: it and see it with your own eyes and not

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Speaker 2: be able to well.

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Speaker 3: And I think that was maybe one of the reasons

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Speaker 3: why the real person didn't want to participate, is I

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Speaker 3: think she was she was so burned and some of

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Speaker 3: the scenes of in Rosario. Dawson played the role in

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Speaker 3: the show, and so some of the scenes in the

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Speaker 3: in the show were actual scenes that actually happened, you know,

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Speaker 3: with particularly the meeting that she had with Richard Sackler

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Speaker 3: and then the moment in which in which the FDA

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Speaker 3: sides with pert Do Pharma over her and she presents

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Speaker 3: a case and the pretty Pharma lawyers are there and

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Speaker 3: she presents the case and in the room the the

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Speaker 3: FDA doctor literally sides with Perdue Pharmin and it's kind

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Speaker 3: of it's sort of the end of her arc in

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Speaker 3: the show. And and that scene is not only is

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Speaker 3: that scene, you know, quite accurate to what happened. She

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Speaker 3: shows slides and the scene there's a slideshow presentation, and

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Speaker 3: those were the actual slides that were presented in the

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Speaker 3: actual scene really that were weaked to me. So I

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Speaker 3: got the actual slides that were leaked to me and

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Speaker 3: and I put them in the show.

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, yeah, yeah, so.

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Speaker 3: It was and that they were when they walked out

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Speaker 3: of that meeting. It had never this hadn't been reported

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Speaker 3: in any of the books because they didn't feel comfortable

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Speaker 3: with it legally. The word they ensued was that they

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Speaker 3: was the the d agent and the scientist that was

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Speaker 3: with her quest thought thought it was so egregious that

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Speaker 3: the FDA sided with Purdue over them, that they thought

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Speaker 3: they were on the take, they thought that they were

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Speaker 3: being paid off. So then I put that in the

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Speaker 3: I could put it in the show, right, so, and

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Speaker 3: you know, and it doesn't have to be that insidious, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, to side with Purdue Pharma. The person who

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Speaker 3: gave Purdue Pharma the wording on the warning label that

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Speaker 3: basically said that this is less addictive than other opioids,

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Speaker 3: he leaves the FDA and eighteen months later, eighteen months later,

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Speaker 3: he goes and works for Purdue Pharma. Right, So there's

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Speaker 3: this revolving door of these jobs.

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Speaker 4: To be had.

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Speaker 3: But even if it's not even if you're not even

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Speaker 3: if it's not a direct job, there's you know, there's

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Speaker 3: boards you get put on and you get paid to

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Speaker 3: be on these olders, and who is charge of these boards,

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Speaker 3: who's influencing perdue pharma, Farma's financing, you know, paying all

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Speaker 3: this money to the university. And so there's all these

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Speaker 3: different revenue streams that are to be had by being

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Speaker 3: you know, good friends with Perdue Pharma.

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Speaker 2: Did anybody from Perdue Pharma ever reach out to you?

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Speaker 2: Did anybody did they try to have they had anything

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Speaker 2: to say about the show.

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Speaker 3: So I tried to get interviews with Richard Sackler and

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Speaker 3: Kathy Sackler, and Jonathan Sackler passed away before we went

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Speaker 3: into production, I believe, but I actually think I I

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Speaker 3: think he was still alive. When I did my initial

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Speaker 3: round of interviews and reached out right, they said they

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Speaker 3: would not grant me an interview, but they would they

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Speaker 3: wanted me to come watch a presentation.

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Speaker 1: A presentation on OXYC on.

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Speaker 3: The opioid crisis and oxycon. You know that I had

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Speaker 3: the wrong facts. They warned me against h And this

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Speaker 3: wasn't a direct conversation. This was to Hulu's lawyers. You know,

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Speaker 3: you have to be careful of Beth Macy. She's wrong,

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Speaker 3: thinks she says, you know that type of stuff. If

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Speaker 3: you know, I was only talking to Beth Macy and

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Speaker 3: there was no other source.

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Speaker 2: This is crazy Lad, crazy Lady documentary.

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Speaker 3: There's just so much data out there, right, and so

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Speaker 3: I so then the Hulu lawyers said, well, we're not

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Speaker 3: going to respond, and I said, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: you must respond.

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Speaker 4: Here's what you say.

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Speaker 3: You say, I will come watch the presentation if you

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Speaker 3: if they agree to give me the interviews. I said,

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Speaker 3: because if we don't say that, they're going to come

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Speaker 3: out later and say that they offered to give me

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Speaker 3: a presentation and.

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Speaker 1: I refrain and refused.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So cut to the show's about to come out.

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Speaker 3: I get a call from a New York Times reporter

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Speaker 3: and he says, Purdue Pharma is saying that they offered

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Speaker 3: you this presentation and you refused.

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Speaker 1: And I went, no, exactly what you said that.

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Speaker 3: I said, I would do it if they would grant

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Speaker 3: me interview, you know. And then you can tell he

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Speaker 3: had this moment of okay, like he knew he was

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Speaker 3: being lied and then and so he didn't put that

356
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Speaker 3: in the story that I had refused these presentations.

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Speaker 4: So it was great.

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Speaker 3: I've done this before on these true life stories, so

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Speaker 3: I'm I'm familiar with the things they say when when

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Speaker 3: when it comes out, so that yeah, yeah, so so yeah,

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Speaker 3: so there was So that was the only direct interaction

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Speaker 3: was was the request for the interviews, and then the

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Speaker 3: and then their request for me to watch the presentation.

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Speaker 4: In our response the.

365
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Speaker 3: Jake Tapper I was on Jake Tapper's show on CNA

366
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Speaker 3: Michael Keaton, and they objected to a tirn on the

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Speaker 3: screen that said something about the the Sackler family, you know,

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Speaker 3: you know, either being leading guilty or being charged. And

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Speaker 3: their sort of big talking point over the years is

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Speaker 3: that the Sacklers have never been charged Purdue Fharmat Pharma

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00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,919
Speaker 3: with charged and pled guilty, not the Sacklers, you know,

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Speaker 3: if you know, as if it's not them, it's this company.

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Speaker 1: And so they did ause if they aren't the company.

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Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, and that's sort of been their point they're

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Speaker 3: talking about for many years. And that all kind of

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Speaker 3: sort of blew up when all the when all the

377
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Speaker 3: discovery documents came out, you know, in twenty eighteen nineteen,

378
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 3: during that time period that showed how much that they

379
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 3: weren't actually in control of the company. But they had

380
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Speaker 3: demanded some sort of apology or you know, a retraction

381
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Speaker 3: from CNN and Jake Tapper over this chirn. Jake Tapper

382
00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,040
Speaker 3: does an on camera apology to them that is so

383
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 3: so brutal and sarcastic and just amazing, and he goes

384
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 3: on and on, you know, as they've never been charged

385
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 3: with it, however, and then he would go on about

386
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,880
Speaker 3: all these things and that that that clip went viral.

387
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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm good.

388
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Speaker 4: It is unbelievable.

389
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Speaker 3: And then they never said a word after that because

390
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Speaker 3: it kind of blew up in their face the sort

391
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 3: of way they had made. I mean, we got so

392
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Speaker 3: much attention off the Jake Tapper Ology retraction. It's just

393
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Speaker 3: rimming with sarcasm, and he just goes on and on

394
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Speaker 3: and on, and it's it's a pretty brutal takedown in

395
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Speaker 3: yeah ology.

396
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Speaker 2: I mean that is like we at the end, I mean,

397
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Speaker 2: at the end of the series, but also in like

398
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,479
Speaker 2: you we just want them to fry, right, You just

399
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,439
Speaker 2: want them to be held so accountable, and it just

400
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 2: you know, it.

401
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 1: Doesn't ever quite happen, and it's so.

402
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I love that you also show the Guggenheim protest,

403
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 2: the Nan Golden like that's very powerful. And they certainly were,

404
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 2: you know, they they suffered repercussions publicly and things like.

405
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 3: That, but without a doubt. You know, a friend of

406
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 3: mine who knew them said to me, and he already

407
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 3: knew like one or two of them, you know, and

408
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 3: he said, he said, no, one's peop always joke about

409
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 3: being run out of town, he said, but the Sas

410
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 3: were actually run out of New York. They all had

411
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 3: you know, they actually were ran out of town. You know,

412
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 3: went to Florida and London, you know, two places where

413
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 3: you can just do anything and you'll be fine. Right,

414
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 3: But there was definitely you know, a social reckoning, which

415
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 3: you know, I can't I can't speak on their behalf

416
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 3: how painful that was for them, But I guess you know,

417
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 3: when you're that wealthy and you can have anything in

418
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 3: the world and you've been sort of shamed and ostracized,

419
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 3: I've got to think that the you know that probably

420
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 3: that probably did hurt.

421
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 1: An impact, It had an impact yet.

422
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 3: That probably did have some sort of impact, but you know,

423
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 3: not one that's satisfying to their victims on any level whatsoever.

424
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 4: Right. So, and we did show that in the show of.

425
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: That they that they were basically you know, run out

426
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Speaker 3: of town.

427
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: Yes, and their names removed from the museums. And because

428
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 2: they were a big philanthropists.

429
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, Nan Golden was so.

430
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: She was so appreciative of the show Dope Sick because

431
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 3: she said that people didn't you know, friends of hers,

432
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 3: and they just didn't fully understand what she had been

433
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 3: going on about for so long, you know, and her

434
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,719
Speaker 3: outrage and her protests, and they didn't understand it. And

435
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 3: so once again, the show, being sort of the trial

436
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 3: that was never had sort.

437
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 4: Of laid it out, beat by beat.

438
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 3: Exactly what happened and by the way, and there were

439
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 3: so many things that I couldn't even get into the

440
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 3: show because it's there's so much, so much damning information,

441
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 3: so much yeah, yeah, you know. And after the names

442
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 3: came down off the met, Nan called me and just said,

443
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 3: thank you for you know, you were part of this process.

444
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 3: The show was part of the process of just getting

445
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 3: this sort of tidal wave of people to truly sort

446
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 3: of get what would happened. She's amazing, I mean, those

447
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 3: protests and she kept the story alive for many years

448
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 3: when people weren't talking about it. You know, it was

449
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 3: really packed Braden Keith blowing it up with the New

450
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 3: Yorker story and then and then Nan kind of kept

451
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,959
Speaker 3: the ball rolling, but then it would go away, you know,

452
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 3: and when we were in production, it had kind of

453
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 3: gone away, and there was definitely a sense that they

454
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 3: had gotten away with.

455
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 2: It, right, right, Well, I this again, it's such a

456
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 2: phenomenal and important series. And again I feel like it's

457
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 2: it's it's it's such a beautiful thing when when we

458
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 2: can tell stories that are meaningful and actually can help

459
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 2: shift a narrative and humanize us and help to you know,

460
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 2: have some kind of healing. It's like nine hundred thousand

461
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 2: of obioids, but it's like an outrageous number, outrageous number.

462
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 3: Just the people that tragically passed away, right, It's the

463
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 3: people too, that their lives were destroyed and spiraled. It

464
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 3: was it's this story of their family members and their

465
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 3: friends and the suffering they had to go through of

466
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 3: having a friend or a relative whose life had you know,

467
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 3: just transformed overnight to a white night crime, you know,

468
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: and deception and tragedy, and you know, the anecdotes over

469
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 3: and over are so heartbreaking. You know, a woman who

470
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 3: had a back injury and was prescribed and then cut

471
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 3: to six months later, she's in prison because she stole

472
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 3: money from her bank job to finance her heroin habit,

473
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 3: you know, and has lost her family, you know, and

474
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 3: she had kids and they won't speak to her anymore.

475
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 3: I mean, these you know, kids losing parents that are

476
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 3: so alive, but it just, you know, it's it's just

477
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 3: it's the havoc that it wrecked. You can't even count

478
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: the number of people because it's community is just all

479
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 3: all over the country. And thank you for doing this

480
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 3: episode to just shining a light on the show and

481
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 3: the issues and literally if it gets anyone to kind

482
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 3: of watch the show that hasn't seen it, to see

483
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 3: the case of this, you know. And and I highly

484
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 3: recommend the other one I had mentioned on Netflix, the Pharmacist,

485
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 3: because it's a just you know, it's more of a

486
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 3: micro story and then one episode does go into Purdue

487
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 3: and the bigger story, but it's it's a that's a

488
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 3: very Dan Schneider's story is incredibly powerful, well you know,

489
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 3: but there's just just tragically, there's there's you know, endless

490
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 3: stories of the havoc that this this caused.

491
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I am so honored to talk to you

492
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: and so happy to see your face.

493
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 3: Your face too, and congrats on this amazing podcast.

494
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 4: Thank you, such a pleasure to see you.

495
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 3: And uh and you know, and hopefully more sooner or later, Yes.

496
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: I hope so too, and Dope Sick is still streaming

497
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: on Hulu and everyone.

498
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: Should watch it.

499
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,479
Speaker 2: Who has yet to thank you so much, Danny, Thanks,

500
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: bye bye,