WEBVTT - Should You Sleep Train? We Investigate (REBROADCAST) 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:05.000 Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.720 in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi everyone, and welcome 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:12.080 back to Katie's Crib. This week, I'm rereleasing one of 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:15.560 my early interviews back from We'll have a brand new 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:25.680 episode up for you on June. Enjoy the conversation by Hi, everybody, 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.480 and welcome to Katie's Crib. In this episode, we are 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:35.400 talking about babies and sleep, sleep training scheduling on demand. 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:38.080 We are going to investigate this big and for a 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:42.080 lot of people, a very controversial subject. We have here 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:44.639 a friend of mine by the name of Susie Menkes, 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.280 and she works with a company that she started called 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.120 Healthy Little Sleepers here in Los Angeles. She's the founder 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.680 and she's going to talk to us about sleep training. Hi. Susie, Hi, 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.400 I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you for 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.880 sharing your knowledge with us. I never heard about sleep training. 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:03.120 I never knew what it was, and then I had 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:04.560 a baby, and then it was all of a sudden, 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:08.600 all everybody was talking about. Can you walk us through 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.640 the very simple question of what is sleep training? What 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.520 is sleep training? Such a good question because oftentimes people 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:19.080 don't know about it until you actually have a baby 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:21.280 and there's this thing sleep training. You have to train 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:26.160 your baby to sleep. Um. So it's basically just making 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.160 changes in your baby's sleep habits so that they can 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:32.280 learn to sell soup. So a lot of times we 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.240 come home from the hospital they're newborn, we're there for them, 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.240 we're doing it for them. But at some point, and 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:40.480 it's typically around four months of age, is when there's 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:44.600 circadian rhythms start coming into play. What's that. Basically they're 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:50.520 the word circadian rhythms, you're smart circadian rhythms. Okay, they're 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.680 sleep rhythms. Um. And it's set by the rising and 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:54.600 setting at the sun, and so that's where you get 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.560 kind of those sleep schedules that people talk about, that 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.600 nine and one nap and things like that, um. But 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.800 really what happens is that four months of ages, they've 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:09.840 become already accustomed to some associations to sleep. So whether 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.680 you're nursing them to sleep, whether you're rocking them to sleep, 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:16.600 whether a dark room dark room, there's a sound machine 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:21.040 on all of it. So there's associations of all involved 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:24.840 with sleeping that they may need to unlearn and learn 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.640 to self soothe, and so that's where we come in 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.600 and try to do sleep learning for them and by 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:35.480 self soothing. To clarify that, you mean, like the baby, 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.079 he or she has her own tools to put her 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:42.399 or himself to sleep. Right. So sleep is a science, right, 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:45.760 So it's a balancing of hormones. Melatonin is a sleep 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.000 hormone that we produce um and we don't really start 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:51.320 producing it until we're three or four months of age. 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.160 So that's where you get that day night confusion. Before that, 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.640 they're up during Yeah, it's in case you didn't know 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.560 where you're freaking out. Babies come out and they lived 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.200 in a dark place for ten months and then all 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.239 of a sudden we're telling them like, oh the sun's down, 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:06.440 the sun's up, but they have no idea, and a 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:08.120 lot of babies even when the first come out, which 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.680 I didn't know until I was going through myself, it's 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.400 reversed so they could be up for some reason. Wow, 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:16.720 they are napping the hell out of this day. But 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:18.720 at nighttime it's like the most energy you've ever seen. 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:21.720 And it's because, like you're saying, until month three or four, 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.239 they don't know, They don't go by the sun. Yet 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:28.040 they don't go by those rhythms. Yet they don't produce melatonin. 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:31.400 The one thing that we do is produce melatonin, and 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.280 so melatonin in our breast milk is actually highest in 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:36.720 the evenings. So if you are nursing, you have that 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:40.600 benefit to give them nighttime breath smelt I am rather 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:45.240 than night mind blown right now again? Oh God, I 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.280 love Katie's grib selfishly because I get lessons like in 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:52.800 Motherhood on the regular, which is so great. Um wow, Okay, 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.680 why do you think sleeve training is such a controversial 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:59.440 and heated topic amongst parents. It is. It's often misguided 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:03.440 sometimes times by um like a fear tactic don't let 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:08.280 your baby cry um. And there is that kind of 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:12.160 almost like breastfeeding. There's that controversy of to breastfeed or 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:18.120 not to brescie pressure attached judgment. It makes a move. Now, 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.160 this makes you a bad mom. S If you're gonna 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.279 let your baby cry, you're harming your baby. Right. There's 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:28.000 a level of stress that's involved in learning a new tactic. 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:31.240 But the American Academy of Pediatrics is something that we 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.440 follow as sleep consultants, and they actually put a framework 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:37.400 together of stress. That's really a good guideline to think 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.320 about stress and what you are doing or not doing 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.200 for your baby. Right. So, there's a positive stress response, 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:47.120 which is a typical frustration, struggling, starting daycare, All those 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:50.760 are typical stress responses. There's a tolerable stress response, which 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:53.880 is more of something that's not every day, maybe a divorce, 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:56.560 a death in the family. And then there's toxic stress 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:01.400 response where, um, you don't have a loving caregifter, there's abuse, 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.920 there's neglected right. So those are the love That toxic 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.919 level is what we're talking about, being harmful and damaging 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:12.760 to the brain. That's not what sleep training is about, right, Um, 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:17.000 And you're not equating sleep training with abuse, right right. 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.520 So that's where this kind of misguided information comes from. 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:24.919 Of sleep training is involved with levels of stress. Yes, 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.200 they're learning a new habit and it's hard for any 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.880 of us to change something. So it's kind of dealing 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:33.960 with that. You have a stable environment, you have a 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.520 loving caregiver to help you cope through that stress. Right. 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.159 We don't say here, go go learn how to sleep 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.640 and walk away, right one. We do it for them first, 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.360 We do it with them. We watch them do it 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:49.040 and then they do it on their own. Whoa, guys, 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.279 that was just like a real SmackDown. Yeah. I definitely 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.160 personally had you know, I went back to work when 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:59.080 Albi was seven weeks old, and for me, sleep was 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:04.279 literal really like a number one priority list because I 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:08.000 couldn't memorize my lines, show up at work, look remotely 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.279 like I was a sane person and not like a 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:14.560 garbage bag and not get my sleep. And so I 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.640 remember the first times I, you know, was told it's 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:22.880 okay to let him make annoyed kind of cry as 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.240 sounds for two or three minutes. Wait a minute, let's 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:27.320 see what he does. And he's going to start to 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:29.560 teach himself, find his thumb or if you're a pacifier 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.479 person or whatever it is, find tools with which to 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.799 put himself to sleep. And I did have those thoughts 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:39.520 for a minute of like, am I subconsciously damaging my 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.120 baby that he's going to be in therapy for a 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.280 million years because of me? Because I let him cry 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.400 for three minutes And you're saying that is a stress 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.080 that is not damaging. No, Plus he's in a stable environment. 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:54.080 I was watching that monitor hawk and counting down the 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:56.720 second and you're there when he wakes up, or you're 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.360 there to feed him, to love him, to play with him. 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.080 You know, he's in that environment he is. You're building 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:04.880 that secure attachment in those first form four to six months, 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:08.719 So that's what you're doing. It's good to hear that. 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:12.400 I And there's also controversy. And I think there's also 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.400 controversy and that if you do sleep train around four 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:20.200 between four and six months, that there is that stigma 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:25.800 of um, that you're harm and your baby. It's too soon, 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.000 he's not enough. Wait, what do you say about those 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:32.600 sort of situations? Is there a set rule of when, how, 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:34.600 how much weight? All these things? And again I don't 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:36.280 really know what I'm talking about. These are like literally 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.840 rumors that have flown into my head. Typically PD I 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.360 always say, go by your pediatrician. Where are they on 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:44.880 the spectrum in terms of weight wise and are they 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.480 are they gaining weight? Um? You know, if they're born early, 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:51.800 sometimes you have to wait a bit longer because you 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.160 really want to go by their developmental age, which is 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.960 based on their do date, not when they're born. Um, 0:07:58.000 --> 0:07:59.600 so if they're early, you might have to wait another 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.960 two weeks or three weeks sure, UM. Pediatricians often have 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.200 kind of a fourteen pound rule. UM. If I get 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:09.040 a client with a twelve thirteen pound baby, but they're 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:13.520 feeding well, they're gaining weight, I'm not gonna turn them away, UM, 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:17.160 because they are developmentally ready, they are producing melatonin, they 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.520 are their circadian rhythms are in place. They do have 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:24.200 social smiles, UM, which develop around six to eight weeks 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:26.520 of age, which is a prime example of when to 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:30.720 set routines in place because social smiles is a connection. 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:36.000 They are making connections and associations. Interesting. Can you, UM 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.280 talk to us about some of the different methods of 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.000 sleep training that parents use. Is there a particular one 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:43.000 that you recommend as a dependent on the baby and 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.040 the issue at hand, um, So, there's no one particular 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:48.440 method that I use. I often take a look at 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.240 the baby, and you know, the parent is the expert 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:52.960 on their baby, so I get a lot of information 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:56.680 from the parents, UM, their age, what's been going on before, 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.720 anything has been tried before, how long have they tried it. 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.280 I've been trained by the Family Sleep Institute, which doesn't 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:08.120 have one particular method that they were trained in. All 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:11.079 of them, UM, and it's sometimes a combination of them. 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.760 There's a Ferbor method, which is like a check and console. 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.840 There is the sleep wave by Kim West. I believe 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.000 there is cried out, which is extinction. Where is the 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:23.000 true cried out? You put your baby in your bed, 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.160 in their crib, you leave the room, you come back 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:31.760 the next morning, assuming there's no night feeds. Assuming but 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.480 you still can do sleep training with a night feed. 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.960 And that's the one that moms say like they did 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:39.800 that for two or three nights and then they never 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.240 did it again. Like is that true. I didn't have 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:43.760 to do that, so I don't know if I would 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:47.040 even be built of the stuff that could do it. 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:51.240 It's not for the faint of heart. I did it 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:55.720 with my first um. How many nights did it take? 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.839 And how long was the grind? Do you know? Thirty minutes? No, 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:01.800 I opened a bottle of wine and I cried and 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:05.480 watched the monitor and thirty minutes he was asleep. Wow. 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:07.600 The next night it was like maybe ten minutes. Okay, 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.440 So that's the cryed out method. What's the verber berber 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.760 Ferber method? What is that? So that is a check 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.000 and console. So you put your baby down to sleep. 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.480 He starts crying. Five minutes, you go and check on him. 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.880 You don't pick him up or her up. Um, you 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.240 say a little it's okay, we're here, it's time to sleep, 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.600 and you leave the room. And then you can wait 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.599 ten minutes and then you go in after ten I 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.480 mean it can be another five. You can do lights 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:34.480 of like going in every five minutes and just using 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.480 your voice and your presence to console them, but you 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.559 don't touch them. And then the next two nights or 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:42.520 whatever it is that's comfortable for you, then you might 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:44.880 extend to you wait ten minutes before you go in 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.120 the room. I have a friend that did that exactly. 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.280 And then what's the other method that you said. There's 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:51.880 a chair method, which is a little bit more gentle approach. 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:54.320 So you're in the room with them. Um, it takes 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:58.200 a little bit longer in terms of, you know, getting 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.880 out of the room and being at So you start 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.920 next to the crib in a chair or on the floor. 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:08.000 It's like the chairman um, and you're there. You can 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:10.199 first couple of days, you can use your hands on them, 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.440 but you don't want any like any other rhythm involved, 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:14.640 because you don't want to start another association for them 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.479 to get attached to. So you keep it minimal interaction, 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:19.360 but you're there for them. And when they fall asleep, 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.679 you leave the room. When they cry again, you come 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:23.559 back into that position and you do the same thing 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:28.000 without picking your baby up. Wow. And and then you 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:30.200 slowly move the next two days or maybe in the 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.320 middle of the room. Then you're not doing touching, it's 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.600 just your voice. The next two days you move again, 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:36.360 and maybe your three quarters the way of the room. 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.720 Then you're at the door. Then you're outside the door, 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.120 and then kind of like slowly, slowly introducing that they 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:45.760 are safe in this space, that you are here. Until 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.960 I'm not here physically, but I am here to hear me, 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:54.000 but I am here. Whoa, that's this is all God motherhood. 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.160 You've got to be a beast, Like this is so 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.160 so fascinating. Um, do you have any advice for what 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:04.280 parents can say when I don't know? I do feel 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.520 like this is like breastfeeding, like you brought it up already. 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:10.120 It's just a very judgy topic. UM. I can remember 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.480 very early on, like my baby was sleeping to the 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.520 night at eight weeks, or like the other version, which 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:19.240 is like, oh my gosh, I I honestly do not 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:21.840 believe in sleep training until they are six months of 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.360 age and fifteen pounds, and that is cruel to be doing. 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.880 I've heard all sides of the spectrum, and people are 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.040 not afraid to give their opinion and their advice. So 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:33.040 what would you suggest for parents that are I don't know, 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.400 I might have that are picking whatever it is they're 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.960 picking and how to stick with it, or I think 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:41.840 finding the support, um, whether it's their husband, their friend, 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.960 their family. Sometimes family has different opinions though. UM. I've 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.120 had clients who was like, I didn't tell my mom 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:50.000 I was doing this or my dad I was doing this, 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:51.720 And there's the mom and dad calling and I'm at 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:53.720 their house and they're not picking up. And then she's saying, 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.559 oh shoot, my sister probably told them and that's why 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.880 they're calling. You know, they know you're here. UM. So 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.960 they got to find where they can find that support. 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.160 And sometimes that's me right. UM. I work with families 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:08.600 on a two week period when they hired me, so 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:10.400 I'm there for them for two So that how it 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:12.480 works with a sleep consultant. You get hired for a 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.200 two week period. And you work with that family closely 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.080 and hopefully in that two weeks you see a bunch 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:21.040 of improvement as far as sleep is concerned. Yeah, I 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.559 have to say sleeping even to this day is probably 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.520 the only really touchy subject where Adam and I, my 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.600 husband and I, we really sometimes butt heads, which is 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:36.920 when we put the baby down and he's making fussy sounds. Um, 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:41.880 it's like someone screaming in my head, Like it's so 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.720 loud to me that I'm not going in there, and 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.920 the seconds go by like years, and my husband just 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:51.240 has a way higher threshold for like it's only in 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.120 fifteen minutes. He's going to put himself down. He always does. 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:55.840 He does it every night. He's gonna put himself down, 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:56.840 And I'm like, no, no no, no, no, no, no no no, no, 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:58.880 tonight is different, It sounds different. It is just it's 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:04.600 just taking forever. And to be clear, he's going he's 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.880 not screaming crying at all. He's either has gas or 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:12.960 he's like getting tired and expressing himself. But I have 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.200 to say even to this day that that is a 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:18.760 husband wife dilemma for me, for our family absolutely, and 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:22.760 I work with family couples that way. Because there are 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.320 differing opinions about what to do and kind of coming 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:28.520 to an agreement in the middleground and having that plan 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.160 and being able to have that plan for both of 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.520 them to work off of, and then caregivers too. So 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:41.000 you're like a therapist to the middle woman. Um So, 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:44.560 at what age would you say a sleep routine is established? 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:47.240 Um So I touched on this early around six to 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:51.480 eight weeks. Um. Just a routine, right, not sleep training. Right. 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.440 We're not trying to get them to sleep on their own, um, 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.760 but they are. When you see social smiles, they are 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.400 making connections. So when you put those pre bedtime teens 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.960 in place, it's their sense of routine and structure that 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.680 sleep is around the corner, right. And that's when I 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.440 was told like, this is when you might introduce a 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.520 bath routine and then like a song or a book 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.720 or the lights change or the white noise sound comes up. 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.960 But you get into this like sort of ritual routine 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.120 that they can associate with, Now, I'm going to sleep 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.720 for the night, right, and and and naps too. You 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.720 can do a shortened version for now do and it 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.880 helps so helps increase that melotonin levels because their bodies 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:33.280 and their mind are already getting ready for sleep because 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.080 those routines are starting, and so that melatonin is starting 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.600 to get produced. Great. Um, is it ever too late 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.080 to start? Like do you ever get phone calls from 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.760 babies that are are not sleeping through the night at 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.720 one and a half too? It's never too late. It's 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:52.000 it's a lot easier when you start early because you 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:56.440 just have certain pattern patterns and rhythms, um that are 0:15:56.480 --> 0:16:01.120 in place. Um. So when you start sleep training a 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.960 little bit later, um, there's just a little bit bigger 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.240 of an adjustment. Um, maybe a little bit more protest 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:13.440 because they're verbal. Um. So you put, so, what are 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:17.200 the benefits of sleep training? And you know, if I 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.880 was playing Devil's advocate, here are there benefits to just 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.360 reading the baby's cues and just letting the baby sleep 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.120 when they're ready? That's probably like nails on a chalkboard too. 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.400 But no, I mean for our listeners and viewers who 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.360 are like truly because there are so many stigmas attached. 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.920 So sleep training is important both for the parents and 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:39.200 for the child because sleep deprivation is hard on us. 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.360 We can't function as well. We're going to fight more 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:44.480 with our partner. We're going to be testy during the day. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.800 We won't remember things as well. We don't have pregnancy, 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.080 it's going to be like rain mom, right not yeah, yeah, 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:55.880 the same thing. Um yeah, continuous um. So. And what 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.280 happens in sleep, especially in the first four to five 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:03.680 hours of sleep, um is non ari em sleep. It's 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.720 the most important sleep we get. It's when our brain 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:11.359 shrinks and our toxins are flushed out, so that sleep 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.720 is most important to get consolidated, which is get them 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.000 to sleep from like seven to twelve. And then that's 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:18.920 when we say, if you're still having a feeding at night, 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:23.600 have it after midnight. Whoa, Okay, I was doing that 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:27.640 in the early days. Okay, okay, okay. So sleep training, 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.639 you would say, is so beneficial because it's important to 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:34.199 get them to have quality, uninterrupted sleep that's where their 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.280 brain develops. And also so that we don't just jump 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.600 off a crazy drain of insanity because it's just so 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:43.480 hard to be I mean, I've never been so sleep 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:44.840 deprived to my whole life. I thought I was gonna 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:48.040 lose my mind. Um. And on the flip side, right, 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:52.600 just following your baby's cute right, Yes, So that works 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.879 great if you have a flexible sleeper, and sometimes you 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.800 just fall naturally into that pattern and that's when you 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:00.359 get like, oh yeah, my baby sleep. And at eight 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.120 weeks you're like, great, you have a uniform baby. Thanks 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.840 a lot, you know. Um, But it goes hand in hand, right, 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:09.119 So the parenting style and the baby's flexibility just matched 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.919 up and they got into a good rhythm um, and 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.280 it just it happens naturally, and so they're able to 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.600 follow those babies cubes. Sometimes babies have colic, sometimes they 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:21.280 have reflux. Sometimes the parents are working, so there's a 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.320 lot of other things juggling and to follow your baby's 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:29.119 cues um necessarily doesn't always work. And that was yeah, 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:31.360 that was my case. Like I remember going back at 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.439 seven weeks to work and emailing my nursing schedule to 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.439 carry Washington work because she was the director of the 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:40.080 episode and I had to feed albeit six nine twelve 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:44.439 three six, and I had to know that he was 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:46.760 going to be waking up from his nap at that time, 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:48.040 that I was going to be allowed to go back 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:49.959 to my trailer at that time to feed my kids. 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:54.320 So for me, it really helped knowing that he naps 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:56.040 from a thirty to ten in the morning. At ten, 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:58.840 I feed him, then he naps again from eleven to one. 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:00.880 At one, I feed him, and then he naped again. 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:02.919 So in the more, you know, so the early stages, 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.080 it was very helpful. Now it's funny that I find 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.119 that I'm off and he's in a routine already. His 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.440 naps are sort of changing, and I've become far more 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:14.119 flexible in sort of experimenting, like not waking him up 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.000 from a nap and seeing how long he goes because 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:18.840 I think he's trying to tell me something that his 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.120 naps are. Maybe we're going to drop the nap maybee, 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:23.879 you know, we're going to go from four naps to 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:25.880 three naps to two naps, you know. So, But I'm 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.400 also off, so I have some of the you know it, really, 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:31.960 you're right. It depends on the schedule and what your 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.680 baby thrives on, right, And he's already in a great 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.639 routine totally, so you have that kind of Okay, Well, 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:39.680 he knows when he needs time to go to so, 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.240 you know, I have a whole setup, the whole aura 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.840 vibe of his room is totally set and ready for shades. 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.520 She's got a mark pac don't. Oh yeah, guys, we're 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:54.560 in Albie's crib right now, micrib Albie's nursery. But yes, 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:57.920 and I do carry those things around with me. Now. 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:02.080 I've gotten so confident that we've um that he's a 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:05.800 good sleeper right now that we are able to. We 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.600 black out his stroller and we haven't traveling sound machine, 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:11.600 and so if I am on the go and can't 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.080 move my schedule things around, he will take his nap. 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:16.040 It's on as good. And I don't want to do 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.120 it all the time, but when I do, it's he knows. 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:23.600 It's like he knows it's time. Um. Can co sleeping 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:27.280 be a part of sleep training? Are the mutually exclusive? UM? 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:33.560 Closely being is another controversial topic. Um. There it CO sleeping, 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:35.639 so you guys know, means sleeping the same bed as 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.280 your parents as the mom or dad, correct or or 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:42.639 and the baby. You get me. So again, we go 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.960 by what the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends, and part 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:49.360 of their role of having the baby in your room 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.800 till one year of age UM was to encourage you know, 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:56.840 the ease of breastfeeding and taking care of your baby 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:00.800 and reducing the risk of SIDS. Co sleeping with a 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:04.000 newborn and a baby under a year of age is 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:09.080 not safe. Um So instead of co sleeping, we want 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:11.680 to think of it as room sharing. Right. You can 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.439 have a co sleeper that's attached to the bed, but 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:16.439