WEBVTT - The Victims Need a Voice 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.040 you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.440 Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.319 get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but true story 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.080 of George Remus. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.800 who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition. 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.440 Remus is the biggest man in the business, but George 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.119 Remus's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:30.200 to betrayal, revenge, and one of the most sensational murder 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:34.679 trials in American history. Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.560 King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:43.360 wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Delia Wild and 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:45.520 I want to invite you to listen to my newest 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:51.400 podcasts to make up Appy existed to the two style. 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.840 It's called The Oh My God Particle Show or OMGPS 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.160 for short. How you like me? Always wondering about the universe, 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:00.800 Like what the universe has made all of how it's 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:03.920 going to evolve? So I went to get some answers. 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:06.880 Listen to The Oh My God Particle Show on the 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:11.120 iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:14.800 Welcome to the piked in Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.280 and Katie Studios. A lot of what I do is 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.040 I kind of tiptoe into people's tragedy, but I get 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.239 to pull my toes out as opposed to the families 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.639 who their entire lives are you know, shattered in some cases, 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.280 destroyed and decimated, which certainly happened in this case. But 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.240 as the story unfolded, and as we started piecing together 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.760 things and talking with family members and law enforcement and 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.680 people in the community, it just became clear to me, 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:46.639 I guess that this was a special place. This is 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.960 the piked In massacre. Returned to Pike County Season two, 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:54.360 episode six, The Victims Need a Voice. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:57.640 a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:01.640 Jeff Shane. Day that eight members of the Roden family 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.799 were found murdered, journalist Chris Graves began covering the story 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:08.840 for the Cincinnati Enquirer. Her insight is crucial, as she 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.360 spoke with members of the victims families, the Rodens, Manlies, 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:16.200 and Gillies in the immediate aftermath of the killings. She's 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.120 the only journalist to conduct an exclusive interview with the 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.200 Wagner family. Just weeks after the Rodents were found dead, 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.000 Graves sat down with Jake Wagner, who has now pled guilty, 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.840 and his accused mother Angela. We finally got Chris Graves 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.919 to sit down for an interview after many tries. She's 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:35.480 speaking out now because she feels it's imperative that the 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:38.280 victims have a voice in this story. This is highly 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.720 significant due to the current gag orders. Here she is 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:45.880 speaking to our producer, also named Chris Graves. When did 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.200 you first hear about the Roden murders? So? I first 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:53.600 heard about the crime the friday in which it broke. 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.960 I saw a tweet, as I recall, and the first 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:01.800 news of this was that there were people dead in 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.920 Pike County and that the police were beginning to investigate. 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:09.600 So my news instincts kicked in, and then I texted 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:13.600 our editors and said, this is our story, this is 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.760 what I was thinking. Multiple people found Daddy in more 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.360 than one location along Union Hill Road and piked in 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.280 this morning. My two PM investigators say they found eight 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.719 people dead, seven adult victims and a sixteen year old boy, 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.120 all from the road and family. There is a shooter 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.919 or shooters out there somewhere. No one is in custody 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.880 right now. Whoever they are, they were trying to possibly 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:38.320 wipe out this entire family. I was trying to get 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.040 somebody who's on the ground, who has eyes, who can 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.279 help you as a reporter, because when stories like this 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.159 begin to on full, there's just so much you don't know. 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.560 You don't know anything. There was a church right across 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.560 from Union Hill Road, and I managed to get Reverend 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.880 Phil Fulton on the phone, and I, you know, I 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:01.719 just started interviewing him. And in the course of that conversation, 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.279 I could hear the Reverend Fulton talking with what appeared 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.359 to be a family member who turned out to be 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:12.200 Leonard Manley. Leonard is the father of Dana Manley Rowden, 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:19.360 also the grandfather of Hannah Roden, Chris Junior and all 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.520 of the kids. So I asked him if he could 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.440 put Leonard Manley on the phone, and he did, and 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:26.920 that was the first time I talked with a family member. 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.919 He was able to tell me in that conversation who 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:36.520 they believed had been killed. And it was his daughter 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:41.240 who found the first four victims, who made the first 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:45.640 nine one one call, which we've all heard. I was 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:49.120 trying to on the phone pieced together who all these people, 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.640 what their relationships were, Who were they, what were the relationships. 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:57.560 It was certainly horrific and tragic. Pykedon is a small 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.599 community where everyone knows everyone in his youth. Imagine the 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.640 town is just stunned, cunshock thinking about the whole family. Really, 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.960 it is hard to believe. It's such a useless strategy. 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.760 I just don't understand why it happened here. A lot 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.200 of the things pinched me. Wake me up. The times 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:19.040 I'll wake up, but they'll just be like a dream. 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.320 On April twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, Chris Graves made her 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:27.839 way to Pike County. That church became a place for 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:32.560 both law enforcement and the family to gather, and I 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.479 asked the Reverend Fulton if I could attend his church 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:39.200 service on Sunday, which is what I did. I went 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:43.320 down into church and listened to his sermon. What was 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:47.679 that sermon like on that Sunday. It's a small church, 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:51.279 it's not a big church. Pastor Fulton sort of lives 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:53.880 in the community, has lived in the community, sort of 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:57.919 grew up there. He preached there for forty three years. 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.159 He talked a lot about this is what a church does. 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:04.960 It's you know, it's a shelter, a refuge, a safe 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:09.000 haven in a dark storm. He talked about the need 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.160 for the community to come together and support a family. 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.600 There was a lot of singing. He turned to the 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.960 scriptures or inspiration and solace. He talked a lot about 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:25.640 evil and what evil would descend to do this small 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.880 country church just up the way north of U thirty 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.200 two helping some of the family and friends as they 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.520 come to grips with an unspeakable event. Can you describe 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:36.400 the evil community is? I don't think you can really describe. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.760 It is just unbelievable these things it's happening and going on, 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.800 and such tragedies like this we should not have them. 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:47.120 You were faced with this giant puzzle, a very tragic 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.600 puzzle that you were trying to put together so that 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.640 others could learn what it possibly happened. Right, You're trying 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.400 to find the truth. You're trying to figure out who 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.080 is in a relationship with whom and how were these 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:02.320 people connected and what could have happened, where did they work, 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:07.120 what's all the you know, prior criminal history of everybody. 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:11.480 And you're sort of left as a reporter to, I 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.160 mean really to kind of do knock on doors, talk 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:16.720 to people, try to figure out, you know, talk to 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.360 the people who are closest to the information and begin 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:24.280 to sort of piece stuff together. And what was the 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:27.320 result of that. I think this part of America gets 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:29.080 a little bit of a rap that it's a very 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:32.640 and it is. It is insular, but it's also kind. 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:37.200 People were kind when they maybe shouldn't have been, you know, 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:40.120 at least to me. And I just I really just 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:45.040 wanted to understand the victims. I wanted to understand family. 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:50.000 So I spend hours, sometimes oftentimes interviewing not just family members, 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.000 but people who lived, you know, down the road and 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:57.920 across the way, and you know, the librarian, and I 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:01.040 mean all kinds of you know, really the sheriff and 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:04.240 the attorney general and all of that. People call it 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.839 and we did too the road in case of the 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:12.760 rod and certainly their family lost the most people, which 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.320 sounds horrific even to say. I mean, I just like, 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:17.840 there's no good words for any of this, But I 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:22.160 mean there are three family units, the Manlies, the Gillies, 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:27.959 and the Rodents. Hannah Gilly is a little often turned 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.160 into a rodent or a footnote. Right, we don't get 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:34.120 to explore her world nearly enough. And that's the other 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:36.760 thing I think about Hannah Hazel. That's what they call 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:40.760 Hannah Hazel Gilly to make the distinction between Hannah may Roden. 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.080 You know, she became I think, by default a rodent. 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.600 So when we first started writing, and I mean I 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.120 did think about that, like how we're sort of saying, well, 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.400 it's rodents, and I thought, well, she's essentially a rodent. 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.360 I mean, she was engaged to Frankie, they were going 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:00.679 to get married, they'd had a child together. She lived 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.319 for her son, you know, was really into nursing and 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.800 the health of him, and was trying to eat healthy. 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:12.800 She graduated from high school, was totally in love with Frankie. 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.439 They were you know, it's everything building a life. She 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.320 saw herself as a road And having said that, she's 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:24.319 still a Gilly. And so this amount of devastation to 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:29.400 essentially three families, all of whom live in close proximity 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:33.439 to each other, and their families or have been in 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:38.000 various stages differently intertwined, and the ripple effect of that, 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.360 and the children, which is what hit me the hardest. 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:45.120 I'm a mother of two, and the idea that there 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:49.560 were three very small children at the crime scenes and 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:54.480 they were found alive and physically unharmed. Resonated with me 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.680 Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine giving an update. Three children 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.800 did survive, a four day old, six month old, and 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.000 a three year old. I think what makes this particularly 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:07.000 grizzly is the fact that you have these children involved 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.160 who obviously were there when executions took place. You know, 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.640 it's heartbreaking. I mean, you know the one mom apparently 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:18.640 was killed with the four day old right there. I mean, 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:20.920 it's just, you know, which is hard. It's just hard 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:25.880 to believe. Then I went and did my first column, 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:31.280 and I just went driving Pike County. It's pretty rolling hills, 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:34.760 It's absolutely beautiful, and it was starting to warm up. 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.640 Things were beginning to bloom. There were fields of yellow 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:41.319 and purple, and I mean, it's just it was just 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:47.040 absolutely beautiful, all of the things that someone who looks 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.720 for ways in which to tell stories you look for, right, 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.480 I mean, as this county was going through it's spring rebirth, 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:59.080 it struck me that this tragedy was rippling across sort 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:03.240 of these beautiful fields of yellow flowers. And I just 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.880 could not get those three children out of my head. 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:12.880 And I just started looking out and I started to cry, truthfully, 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:18.560 and sort of became, I don't know, overwhelmed, but I 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.000 I came around or down a hill and I saw 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.600 a house just sort of out on its own, with, 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.200 you know, a couple of rocking chairs on the porch, 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.200 and you know, they were just rocking, but nobody was 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:33.640 in them. And I sort of started thinking about this 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:38.080 lullaby It's called the Appalachian Lullaby, and it just it 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.359 just started going through my head and I was remembering 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:45.920 pieces of it, and I just couldn't help but think 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:50.320 about those children and who would rock them to sleep, 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.800 and who would hold them tight, and who, you know, 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.880 who would sing them lullabys to sleep. And I thought, 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:02.040 that's what this is about. This was more than just 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.200 a homicide or a multiple homicide or a mask killing. 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.440 It's about who takes care of those babies and what 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:14.240 in the world happened here, And those children's lives will 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:19.720 never be the same. These are families, so many lives affected, 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.280 and the ripple effects of that which will go on 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:27.560 for decades and generations. They now are and will forever 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:34.680 be bound by this horrible tragedy, but both their strength 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:39.120 and their resilience and their resolve and their pain. I mean, 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.360 it's incredible to me. I don't, I don't. I'm struggling 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:46.160 with words because I don't know the right words. Truthfully, 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:55.559 it's it's heartbreaking and and just awe inspiring. Somehow they're survivors. 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:03.000 So that's what I wrote about. Nobody can imagine what 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:10.920 this family has been through. Only the other families, the Manlies, 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:15.800 the Gillies, those families are suffering as much as we are. 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:22.080 They only know what we are all going through every 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:27.760 day we live with this. It never goes away. I 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:33.880 can tell you that even though it's been extremely hard, 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:41.080 that I know our family will never stop. We will 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:45.160 never give up. We will never give up trying to 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:52.520 find and bring the people whoever did this to justice. 0:14:53.360 --> 0:15:01.280 We will not give up. Can you describe your first 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:05.000 impressions of the Wagner's My first interview with Jake Wagner 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.560 and his mom, Angela was on May thirty first, twenty sixteen. 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.920 You know, so, what is that six weeks after the homicides. 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:15.480 I had talked with other people who said, oh, they 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.080 probably aren't going to talk to you, they're pretty to themselves. 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.440 But I knew that Jake and Hannah had been in 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.000 a relationship and had had shared a child. Said well, well, 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.040 you know, we'll go try. I showed up, and he 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.200 and his mom agreed to the interview. He and Angela 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:36.080 outside their home, which was searched two years later. We 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:41.560 sat outside on a patio area and talked for I 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.120 don't know, two and a half hours. Maybe there were 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.880 children's toys everywhere, like those little pretend little cars that 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.240 they drive that are motorized, or little tikes, you know, 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.040 the slides and all of that. It seemed like, Wow, 0:15:56.160 --> 0:16:01.000 here's a family who really digs their kids and or 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.520 grandkids in Angela's case, And I was trying to establish 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:08.040 who were the Wagoners? Who are the Wagoners? When did 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:12.320 you start dating Hannah? What was that relationship? You know? 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:16.120 He didn't dodge questions, looked me in the eye when 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.880 I interviewed him, really nice. It seemed to me as 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.800 if when we had talked that very first time, that 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.600 he was truly in love with Hannah, whatever that means. 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:30.080 But he thought that they were going to be that 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.960 it would all that there would be a reconciliation and 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.720 they would all come together. And he had this idea 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.800 in his head about what that would look like. And 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:41.560 I told him this, like, Wow, for a young man, 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.560 you seem to have everything lined up, you know. I mean, 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:47.000 he was saying, well, we were going to do this. 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:48.840 He and Hannah, we were going to do this. We're 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:50.720 going to do this. My plan was this. And I 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:55.160 was like, wow, that's a lot of you are really linear, 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.560 I think, is what I said. Everything's has to line up. 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.480 And I was sort of taken by that. I didn't 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:04.760 quite know what to think of it. But again, I 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:07.439 try to keep my mind as open as possible when 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.520 I'm interviewing people. If in fact what Jake Wagner said 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.119 is true. And he committed five of eight murders and 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:15.879 then went to sleep that night, took a shower, and 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.560 then had the nerve to sit down with you straight 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:22.199 faced and said, I'm good, you know, like a regular person. 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:28.400 That's so unfathomable to me. Humans are multifaceted. I've said 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.639 for years that being a reporter didn't get easier. It 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.480 gets harder the longer you do it, because the world, 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:39.119 you begin to understand the world is multidimensional and things 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:44.520 are very it just there's not sometimes these clear things, 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.800 they're not I have a lot of questions. As someone 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.920 who's talked to Jake before, I have tons of questions, 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:54.800 as you can only imagine. But yeah, I mean it 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.639 seemed to me as if, as I just painted, you know, 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:02.359 there were toys everywhere. He talked about his daughter all 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.159 the time. He talked about you know, for instance, he 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:09.320 could name movies they all watched together, the books he 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:13.000 would read her before they went to bed, what he 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:18.399 told her about where her mom was. You know that 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.480 mom's with Jesus now, he said, You know, I don't 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.480 know how to explain to her that mom isn't coming back. 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:30.560 Did you ask where his daughter was that night? I mean, 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.679 it was my understanding that this was his week to 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:39.919 have the child, and he had gotten the child a 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:44.560 day earlier than he would normally have done that. Fast 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.600 forward five years. If Jake Wagner is to be believed 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:51.320 by what he said in court, what we still don't 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:57.359 know is where all four of the Wagners were the 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.960 night and early morning of the twenty some twenty second. 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.119 So there's an assumption, I think that all four of 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:10.359 the Wagners participated physically in the crimes. I don't know 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:15.200 if that's true. I simply don't know that. What Jake 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.399 said and as you all know, what Jake said in 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.719 court is that he was quote unquote personally responsible for 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:25.920 five of the eight victims. So I don't know where 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.800 his brother was, his dad or his mom. What was 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:36.840 Angela Wagner? Like, Jake talked a lot more than Angela, 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:41.760 but Angela would add on things as Jake talked. But 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:46.240 any in person interview I did with Jake, Angela was 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:49.280 there and didn't leave. I mean she was a mom. 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:51.080 I mean that's how I saw it. You know, she's 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:53.880 a mom. Here her Again, this is six weeks after 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.280 these homicides, and when I you know, and again I'm 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.840 not trying to be sympathetic to the Aagner's right now, 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:05.280 I'm not. But again, dialing back five years, I show 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.960 up on your doorstep, and if I'm the mom and 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.560 my son has just lost the mother of his child, 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:15.720 I guess I thought she was just being a protective mom, 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.920 I'm here for my kid kind of thing. Again, this 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.760 all looks different today than it did five years ago. 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.560 At the time, did you feel like they might have 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:28.800 been guilty or did you believe what they were saying 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:30.919 or do you not put yourself in that position to 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.720 even have an opinion? I had somebody asked me, I 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:36.280 don't even know a couple of years ago, what's it 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:38.680 like to look into the eyes of pure evil? I said, 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:42.680 I don't know. Sometimes I think that people think it 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:46.879 would you would just automatically. I don't know that. Some 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.160 like I have some kind of radar that go off, 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.879 we're you know, home. But they weren't suspects, so I 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.800 wasn't approaching them with that in the back of my mind, like, oh, 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.639 now you're suspects in this. It was more information gathering. 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.840 They didn't seem nervous. I don't think they ever asked me, 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:09.600 because sometimes in interviews people will say, oh, don't use that, 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.120 or don't use that, or that makes me really nervous, 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.280 or I mean, I don't recall any of that. You know. 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.040 It wasn't any like, well you can't use that, or 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.720 what are you doing or any of that. But I don't. 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:23.080 You know, again, you don't know what you don't know. 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:27.480 And to be completely honest, I did ask them Angela 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:30.679 and Jake Wants via email, just straight out did you 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:38.960 kill them? And they never responded, we're going to take 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:47.080 a quick break. Here, we'll be back in a moment. Oh. 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:51.240 I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:54.320 Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:58.320 of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:04.560 He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:09.320 he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:13.080 He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:18.320 went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:22.560 the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.760 us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:28.480 to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:30.600 to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:32.600 him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.520 him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.840 I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:43.160 listen to The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:46.360 or wherever you get your podcasts. In our twenty two 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:48.400 years of friendship, Andy, this has to be the most 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:51.560 bizarre thing we've ever done. I know, I love it. 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:55.520 Our podcast. My Vagina said, what is a podcast? Where 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:57.960 we ask our everyday Vagina listeners to pull up a 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.560 seat at the best Friend's table as were our most 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:04.679 personal and humiliating stories and ask questions about women's bodies. 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:07.800 We are going to discuss all body things like what 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:10.480 exactly are we supposed to do with our pubs? Oh 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:14.400 my gosh, if you could have a heart shaped pube 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:20.840 that were bedazzled in pink rubies or perrymenopause, I feel 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:24.440 right now justified. I'm going to start my own personal movement. 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:27.399 I'm going to start blaming anything that goes wrong in 0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:33.040 my life on perrymenopause, leg hair too long, haruse, don't 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:38.119 have the will to clean, perrymopause exactly? Are whack periods? 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:41.360 Boob issues and so much more. Listen to My Vagina 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:44.919 said What podcasts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:49.320 wherever you get your podcasts. What. This is the unbelievable 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:52.840 but true story of George Ramus. You might know him 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:56.600 as a character from Boardwalk Empire or as the inspiration 0:23:56.680 --> 0:24:00.320 for Jay Gatsby. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:03.000 who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition. 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.760 Remus is in the whiskey business, and Remus is the 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:09.560 biggest man in the business while living the life of 0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:14.080 luxury with his clamorous and ambitious wife Imogene Daddy. I 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:17.240 am so glad you are here. But George Remus's wild 0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:20.680 existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal. 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:25.040 She had Remus just exactly where she wanted him revenge. 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:28.400 Feel this muscle. I got this for Remus. I could 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:30.520 crush him like an egg. And one of the most 0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:34.359 sensational murder trials in American history, we the jury, find 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:40.520 the defendant, Join me Abbot kaylor As we traced George 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:44.919 Remus's transformation from bootleg King to alleged madman. Listen to 0:24:45.000 --> 0:24:48.960 Remus the Mad Bootleg King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:55.560 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Afghanistan twenty twelve, 0:24:56.640 --> 0:25:00.119 One Quiet Night, Staffs Are Robert Bales left his I'm 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:04.360 at outpost alone. He walked into two villages and started shooting, 0:25:05.240 --> 0:25:09.560 killing sixteen civilians, many of them children. Maybe I made 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:12.479 a mistake, maybe I am wrong, but you have to 0:25:12.560 --> 0:25:15.679 understand the way it went down. We've conducted a series 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:18.640 of interviews with one of America's most notorious war criminals. 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:22.239 They paint a complex portrait of a man changed by 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:24.679