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Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find

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Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt

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Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality,

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Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.

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Speaker 1: for short. How you like me? Always wondering about the universe,

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Speaker 1: Like what the universe has made all of how it's

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Speaker 1: going to evolve? So I went to get some answers.

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Speaker 1: Listen to The Oh My God Particle Show on the

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the piked in Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio

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Speaker 1: and Katie Studios. A lot of what I do is

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Speaker 1: I kind of tiptoe into people's tragedy, but I get

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Speaker 1: to pull my toes out as opposed to the families

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Speaker 1: who their entire lives are you know, shattered in some cases,

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Speaker 1: destroyed and decimated, which certainly happened in this case. But

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Speaker 1: as the story unfolded, and as we started piecing together

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Speaker 1: things and talking with family members and law enforcement and

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Speaker 1: people in the community, it just became clear to me,

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Speaker 1: I guess that this was a special place. This is

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Speaker 1: the piked In massacre. Returned to Pike County Season two,

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Speaker 1: episode six, The Victims Need a Voice. I'm Courtney Armstrong,

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Speaker 1: a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and

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Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. Day that eight members of the Roden family

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Speaker 1: were found murdered, journalist Chris Graves began covering the story

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Speaker 1: for the Cincinnati Enquirer. Her insight is crucial, as she

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Speaker 1: spoke with members of the victims families, the Rodens, Manlies,

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Speaker 1: and Gillies in the immediate aftermath of the killings. She's

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Speaker 1: the only journalist to conduct an exclusive interview with the

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Speaker 1: Wagner family. Just weeks after the Rodents were found dead,

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Speaker 1: Graves sat down with Jake Wagner, who has now pled guilty,

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Speaker 1: and his accused mother Angela. We finally got Chris Graves

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Speaker 1: to sit down for an interview after many tries. She's

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Speaker 1: speaking out now because she feels it's imperative that the

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Speaker 1: victims have a voice in this story. This is highly

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Speaker 1: significant due to the current gag orders. Here she is

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Speaker 1: speaking to our producer, also named Chris Graves. When did

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Speaker 1: you first hear about the Roden murders? So? I first

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Speaker 1: heard about the crime the friday in which it broke.

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Speaker 1: I saw a tweet, as I recall, and the first

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Speaker 1: news of this was that there were people dead in

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Speaker 1: Pike County and that the police were beginning to investigate.

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Speaker 1: So my news instincts kicked in, and then I texted

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Speaker 1: our editors and said, this is our story, this is

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Speaker 1: what I was thinking. Multiple people found Daddy in more

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Speaker 1: than one location along Union Hill Road and piked in

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Speaker 1: this morning. My two PM investigators say they found eight

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Speaker 1: people dead, seven adult victims and a sixteen year old boy,

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Speaker 1: all from the road and family. There is a shooter

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Speaker 1: or shooters out there somewhere. No one is in custody

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Speaker 1: right now. Whoever they are, they were trying to possibly

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Speaker 1: wipe out this entire family. I was trying to get

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Speaker 1: somebody who's on the ground, who has eyes, who can

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Speaker 1: help you as a reporter, because when stories like this

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Speaker 1: begin to on full, there's just so much you don't know.

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Speaker 1: You don't know anything. There was a church right across

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Speaker 1: from Union Hill Road, and I managed to get Reverend

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Speaker 1: Phil Fulton on the phone, and I, you know, I

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Speaker 1: just started interviewing him. And in the course of that conversation,

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Speaker 1: I could hear the Reverend Fulton talking with what appeared

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Speaker 1: to be a family member who turned out to be

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Speaker 1: Leonard Manley. Leonard is the father of Dana Manley Rowden,

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Speaker 1: also the grandfather of Hannah Roden, Chris Junior and all

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Speaker 1: of the kids. So I asked him if he could

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Speaker 1: put Leonard Manley on the phone, and he did, and

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Speaker 1: that was the first time I talked with a family member.

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Speaker 1: He was able to tell me in that conversation who

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Speaker 1: they believed had been killed. And it was his daughter

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Speaker 1: who found the first four victims, who made the first

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Speaker 1: nine one one call, which we've all heard. I was

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Speaker 1: trying to on the phone pieced together who all these people,

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Speaker 1: what their relationships were, Who were they, what were the relationships.

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Speaker 1: It was certainly horrific and tragic. Pykedon is a small

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Speaker 1: community where everyone knows everyone in his youth. Imagine the

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Speaker 1: town is just stunned, cunshock thinking about the whole family. Really,

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Speaker 1: it is hard to believe. It's such a useless strategy.

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Speaker 1: I just don't understand why it happened here. A lot

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Speaker 1: of the things pinched me. Wake me up. The times

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Speaker 1: I'll wake up, but they'll just be like a dream.

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Speaker 1: On April twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, Chris Graves made her

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Speaker 1: way to Pike County. That church became a place for

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Speaker 1: both law enforcement and the family to gather, and I

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Speaker 1: asked the Reverend Fulton if I could attend his church

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Speaker 1: service on Sunday, which is what I did. I went

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Speaker 1: down into church and listened to his sermon. What was

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Speaker 1: that sermon like on that Sunday. It's a small church,

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Speaker 1: it's not a big church. Pastor Fulton sort of lives

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Speaker 1: in the community, has lived in the community, sort of

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Speaker 1: grew up there. He preached there for forty three years.

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Speaker 1: He talked a lot about this is what a church does.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, it's a shelter, a refuge, a safe

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Speaker 1: haven in a dark storm. He talked about the need

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Speaker 1: for the community to come together and support a family.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of singing. He turned to the

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Speaker 1: scriptures or inspiration and solace. He talked a lot about

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Speaker 1: evil and what evil would descend to do this small

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Speaker 1: country church just up the way north of U thirty

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Speaker 1: two helping some of the family and friends as they

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Speaker 1: come to grips with an unspeakable event. Can you describe

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Speaker 1: the evil community is? I don't think you can really describe.

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Speaker 1: It is just unbelievable these things it's happening and going on,

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Speaker 1: and such tragedies like this we should not have them.

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Speaker 1: You were faced with this giant puzzle, a very tragic

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Speaker 1: puzzle that you were trying to put together so that

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Speaker 1: others could learn what it possibly happened. Right, You're trying

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Speaker 1: to find the truth. You're trying to figure out who

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Speaker 1: is in a relationship with whom and how were these

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Speaker 1: people connected and what could have happened, where did they work,

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Speaker 1: what's all the you know, prior criminal history of everybody.

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Speaker 1: And you're sort of left as a reporter to, I

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Speaker 1: mean really to kind of do knock on doors, talk

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Speaker 1: to people, try to figure out, you know, talk to

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Speaker 1: the people who are closest to the information and begin

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Speaker 1: to sort of piece stuff together. And what was the

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Speaker 1: result of that. I think this part of America gets

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a rap that it's a very

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Speaker 1: and it is. It is insular, but it's also kind.

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Speaker 1: People were kind when they maybe shouldn't have been, you know,

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Speaker 1: at least to me. And I just I really just

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Speaker 1: wanted to understand the victims. I wanted to understand family.

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Speaker 1: So I spend hours, sometimes oftentimes interviewing not just family members,

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Speaker 1: but people who lived, you know, down the road and

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Speaker 1: across the way, and you know, the librarian, and I

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Speaker 1: mean all kinds of you know, really the sheriff and

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Speaker 1: the attorney general and all of that. People call it

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Speaker 1: and we did too the road in case of the

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Speaker 1: rod and certainly their family lost the most people, which

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Speaker 1: sounds horrific even to say. I mean, I just like,

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Speaker 1: there's no good words for any of this, But I

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Speaker 1: mean there are three family units, the Manlies, the Gillies,

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Speaker 1: and the Rodents. Hannah Gilly is a little often turned

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Speaker 1: into a rodent or a footnote. Right, we don't get

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Speaker 1: to explore her world nearly enough. And that's the other

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Speaker 1: thing I think about Hannah Hazel. That's what they call

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Speaker 1: Hannah Hazel Gilly to make the distinction between Hannah may Roden.

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Speaker 1: You know, she became I think, by default a rodent.

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Speaker 1: So when we first started writing, and I mean I

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Speaker 1: did think about that, like how we're sort of saying, well,

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Speaker 1: it's rodents, and I thought, well, she's essentially a rodent.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she was engaged to Frankie, they were going

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Speaker 1: to get married, they'd had a child together. She lived

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Speaker 1: for her son, you know, was really into nursing and

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Speaker 1: the health of him, and was trying to eat healthy.

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Speaker 1: She graduated from high school, was totally in love with Frankie.

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Speaker 1: They were you know, it's everything building a life. She

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Speaker 1: saw herself as a road And having said that, she's

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Speaker 1: still a Gilly. And so this amount of devastation to

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Speaker 1: essentially three families, all of whom live in close proximity

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Speaker 1: to each other, and their families or have been in

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Speaker 1: various stages differently intertwined, and the ripple effect of that,

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Speaker 1: and the children, which is what hit me the hardest.

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Speaker 1: I'm a mother of two, and the idea that there

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Speaker 1: were three very small children at the crime scenes and

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Speaker 1: they were found alive and physically unharmed. Resonated with me

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Speaker 1: Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine giving an update. Three children

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Speaker 1: did survive, a four day old, six month old, and

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Speaker 1: a three year old. I think what makes this particularly

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Speaker 1: grizzly is the fact that you have these children involved

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Speaker 1: who obviously were there when executions took place. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's heartbreaking. I mean, you know the one mom apparently

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Speaker 1: was killed with the four day old right there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just, you know, which is hard. It's just hard

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Speaker 1: to believe. Then I went and did my first column,

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Speaker 1: and I just went driving Pike County. It's pretty rolling hills,

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely beautiful, and it was starting to warm up.

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Speaker 1: Things were beginning to bloom. There were fields of yellow

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Speaker 1: and purple, and I mean, it's just it was just

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Speaker 1: absolutely beautiful, all of the things that someone who looks

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Speaker 1: for ways in which to tell stories you look for, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, as this county was going through it's spring rebirth,

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Speaker 1: it struck me that this tragedy was rippling across sort

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Speaker 1: of these beautiful fields of yellow flowers. And I just

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Speaker 1: could not get those three children out of my head.

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Speaker 1: And I just started looking out and I started to cry, truthfully,

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Speaker 1: and sort of became, I don't know, overwhelmed, but I

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Speaker 1: I came around or down a hill and I saw

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Speaker 1: a house just sort of out on its own, with,

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Speaker 1: you know, a couple of rocking chairs on the porch,

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Speaker 1: and you know, they were just rocking, but nobody was

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Speaker 1: in them. And I sort of started thinking about this

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Speaker 1: lullaby It's called the Appalachian Lullaby, and it just it

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Speaker 1: just started going through my head and I was remembering

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Speaker 1: pieces of it, and I just couldn't help but think

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Speaker 1: about those children and who would rock them to sleep,

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Speaker 1: and who would hold them tight, and who, you know,

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Speaker 1: who would sing them lullabys to sleep. And I thought,

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Speaker 1: that's what this is about. This was more than just

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Speaker 1: a homicide or a multiple homicide or a mask killing.

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Speaker 1: It's about who takes care of those babies and what

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Speaker 1: in the world happened here, And those children's lives will

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Speaker 1: never be the same. These are families, so many lives affected,

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Speaker 1: and the ripple effects of that which will go on

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Speaker 1: for decades and generations. They now are and will forever

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Speaker 1: be bound by this horrible tragedy, but both their strength

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Speaker 1: and their resilience and their resolve and their pain. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's incredible to me. I don't, I don't. I'm struggling

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Speaker 1: with words because I don't know the right words. Truthfully,

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Speaker 1: it's it's heartbreaking and and just awe inspiring. Somehow they're survivors.

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Speaker 1: So that's what I wrote about. Nobody can imagine what

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Speaker 1: this family has been through. Only the other families, the Manlies,

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Speaker 1: the Gillies, those families are suffering as much as we are.

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Speaker 1: They only know what we are all going through every

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Speaker 1: day we live with this. It never goes away. I

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Speaker 1: can tell you that even though it's been extremely hard,

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Speaker 1: that I know our family will never stop. We will

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Speaker 1: never give up. We will never give up trying to

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Speaker 1: find and bring the people whoever did this to justice.

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Speaker 1: We will not give up. Can you describe your first

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Speaker 1: impressions of the Wagner's My first interview with Jake Wagner

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Speaker 1: and his mom, Angela was on May thirty first, twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: You know, so, what is that six weeks after the homicides.

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Speaker 1: I had talked with other people who said, oh, they

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Speaker 1: probably aren't going to talk to you, they're pretty to themselves.

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Speaker 1: But I knew that Jake and Hannah had been in

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Speaker 1: a relationship and had had shared a child. Said well, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, we'll go try. I showed up, and he

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Speaker 1: and his mom agreed to the interview. He and Angela

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Speaker 1: outside their home, which was searched two years later. We

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Speaker 1: sat outside on a patio area and talked for I

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Speaker 1: don't know, two and a half hours. Maybe there were

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Speaker 1: children's toys everywhere, like those little pretend little cars that

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Speaker 1: they drive that are motorized, or little tikes, you know,

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Speaker 1: the slides and all of that. It seemed like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: here's a family who really digs their kids and or

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Speaker 1: grandkids in Angela's case, And I was trying to establish

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Speaker 1: who were the Wagoners? Who are the Wagoners? When did

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Speaker 1: you start dating Hannah? What was that relationship? You know?

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Speaker 1: He didn't dodge questions, looked me in the eye when

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Speaker 1: I interviewed him, really nice. It seemed to me as

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Speaker 1: if when we had talked that very first time, that

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Speaker 1: he was truly in love with Hannah, whatever that means.

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Speaker 1: But he thought that they were going to be that

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Speaker 1: it would all that there would be a reconciliation and

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Speaker 1: they would all come together. And he had this idea

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Speaker 1: in his head about what that would look like. And

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Speaker 1: I told him this, like, Wow, for a young man,

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Speaker 1: you seem to have everything lined up, you know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he was saying, well, we were going to do this.

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Speaker 1: He and Hannah, we were going to do this. We're

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Speaker 1: going to do this. My plan was this. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, wow, that's a lot of you are really linear,

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Speaker 1: I think, is what I said. Everything's has to line up.

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Speaker 1: And I was sort of taken by that. I didn't

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Speaker 1: quite know what to think of it. But again, I

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Speaker 1: try to keep my mind as open as possible when

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Speaker 1: I'm interviewing people. If in fact what Jake Wagner said

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Speaker 1: is true. And he committed five of eight murders and

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Speaker 1: then went to sleep that night, took a shower, and

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Speaker 1: then had the nerve to sit down with you straight

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Speaker 1: faced and said, I'm good, you know, like a regular person.

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Speaker 1: That's so unfathomable to me. Humans are multifaceted. I've said

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Speaker 1: for years that being a reporter didn't get easier. It

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Speaker 1: gets harder the longer you do it, because the world,

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Speaker 1: you begin to understand the world is multidimensional and things

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Speaker 1: are very it just there's not sometimes these clear things,

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Speaker 1: they're not I have a lot of questions. As someone

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Speaker 1: who's talked to Jake before, I have tons of questions,

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Speaker 1: as you can only imagine. But yeah, I mean it

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Speaker 1: seemed to me as if, as I just painted, you know,

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Speaker 1: there were toys everywhere. He talked about his daughter all

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Speaker 1: the time. He talked about you know, for instance, he

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Speaker 1: could name movies they all watched together, the books he

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Speaker 1: would read her before they went to bed, what he

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Speaker 1: told her about where her mom was. You know that

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Speaker 1: mom's with Jesus now, he said, You know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know how to explain to her that mom isn't coming back.

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Speaker 1: Did you ask where his daughter was that night? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was my understanding that this was his week to

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Speaker 1: have the child, and he had gotten the child a

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Speaker 1: day earlier than he would normally have done that. Fast

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Speaker 1: forward five years. If Jake Wagner is to be believed

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Speaker 1: by what he said in court, what we still don't

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Speaker 1: know is where all four of the Wagners were the

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Speaker 1: night and early morning of the twenty some twenty second.

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Speaker 1: So there's an assumption, I think that all four of

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Speaker 1: the Wagners participated physically in the crimes. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that's true. I simply don't know that. What Jake

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Speaker 1: said and as you all know, what Jake said in

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Speaker 1: court is that he was quote unquote personally responsible for

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Speaker 1: five of the eight victims. So I don't know where

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Speaker 1: his brother was, his dad or his mom. What was

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Speaker 1: Angela Wagner? Like, Jake talked a lot more than Angela,

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Speaker 1: but Angela would add on things as Jake talked. But

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Speaker 1: any in person interview I did with Jake, Angela was

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Speaker 1: there and didn't leave. I mean she was a mom.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's how I saw it. You know, she's

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Speaker 1: a mom. Here her Again, this is six weeks after

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Speaker 1: these homicides, and when I you know, and again I'm

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Speaker 1: not trying to be sympathetic to the Aagner's right now,

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Speaker 1: I'm not. But again, dialing back five years, I show

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Speaker 1: up on your doorstep, and if I'm the mom and

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Speaker 1: my son has just lost the mother of his child,

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Speaker 1: I guess I thought she was just being a protective mom,

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Speaker 1: I'm here for my kid kind of thing. Again, this

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Speaker 1: all looks different today than it did five years ago.

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Speaker 1: At the time, did you feel like they might have

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Speaker 1: been guilty or did you believe what they were saying

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Speaker 1: or do you not put yourself in that position to

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Speaker 1: even have an opinion? I had somebody asked me, I

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Speaker 1: don't even know a couple of years ago, what's it

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Speaker 1: like to look into the eyes of pure evil? I said,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Sometimes I think that people think it

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Speaker 1: would you would just automatically. I don't know that. Some

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Speaker 1: like I have some kind of radar that go off,

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Speaker 1: we're you know, home. But they weren't suspects, so I

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Speaker 1: wasn't approaching them with that in the back of my mind, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: now you're suspects in this. It was more information gathering.

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Speaker 1: They didn't seem nervous. I don't think they ever asked me,

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Speaker 1: because sometimes in interviews people will say, oh, don't use that,

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Speaker 1: or don't use that, or that makes me really nervous,

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Speaker 1: or I mean, I don't recall any of that. You know.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't any like, well you can't use that, or

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Speaker 1: what are you doing or any of that. But I don't.

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Speaker 1: You know, again, you don't know what you don't know.

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Speaker 1: And to be completely honest, I did ask them Angela

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Speaker 1: and Jake Wants via email, just straight out did you

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Speaker 1: kill them? And they never responded, we're going to take

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Speaker 1: a quick break. Here, we'll be back in a moment. Oh.

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Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends.

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Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few

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Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.

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Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and

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Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't.

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Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she

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Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes

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Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob,

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Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him

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Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put

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Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw

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Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call

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Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister.

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Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can

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Speaker 1: listen to The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. In our twenty two

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Speaker 1: years of friendship, Andy, this has to be the most

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. What. This is the unbelievable

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Speaker 1: but true story of George Ramus. You might know him

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Speaker 1: She had Remus just exactly where she wanted him revenge.

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Speaker 1: Feel this muscle. I got this for Remus. I could

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Speaker 1: sensational murder trials in American history, we the jury, find

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Speaker 1: Remus's transformation from bootleg King to alleged madman. Listen to

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Afghanistan twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: One Quiet Night, Staffs Are Robert Bales left his I'm

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Speaker 1: at outpost alone. He walked into two villages and started shooting,

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Speaker 1: killing sixteen civilians, many of them children. Maybe I made

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Speaker 1: a mistake, maybe I am wrong, but you have to

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Speaker 1: understand the way it went down. We've conducted a series

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Speaker 1: of interviews with one of America's most notorious war criminals.

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00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,239
Speaker 1: They paint a complex portrait of a man changed by

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Speaker 1: the global War on terror, the idea of hurting a

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Speaker 1: kid killing a kid Come on. The War Within the

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Speaker 1: Robert Bales Story is an investigative podcast revealing explosive information

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Speaker 1: on one of the most controversial events in American military history.

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Speaker 1: Bale's actions are merely a symptom of a broken army.

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Speaker 1: Listen to The War Within the Robert Bale Story on

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: In seventeen, the investigation ramped up. More than two dozen

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Speaker 1: investigators are focused on solving one of Ohio's largest mass

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Speaker 1: murders in history. As of today, we've received eight hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighty three tips, we have conducted four hundred and

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Speaker 1: sixty five interviews, thirty eight search warrants have been issued,

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Speaker 1: and sixty cyber extractions have been done. They say they

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Speaker 1: made significant progress in the investigation, believe more than one

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Speaker 1: person committed the crimes, but to day, the killers are

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Speaker 1: still on the loose. When did you hear that the

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Speaker 1: Wagners were suspects? All of a sudden, I got a

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Speaker 1: tipped from somebody. They said, hey, have you heard about

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Speaker 1: the search at the Wagners. And it became really clear

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Speaker 1: to me that they must have had something, because you'd

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Speaker 1: have to have probable cause. So whatever it was that

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Speaker 1: got them probable cause to do the search, I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: they found something, because it isn't just going to be

424
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: a fishing expedition, right. So I got in my car

425
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: and I drove there, and the helicopters up and there

426
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: were law enforcement, like on four wheelers. I was sitting

427
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 1: there at the search and someone said, well, you know

428
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: the house is sold. I said, no, I don't know that.

429
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: And then I sat in my car and looked up

430
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: the property records and saw that it was on the market.

431
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: And then you start connecting the dots in your own head, right,

432
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: And I was like, whoa wait a minute, wait a minute.

433
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 1: And then I found out they were in Alaska. The

434
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: Wagners were in Alaska. And then I went to the

435
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: editor and said, I need to go to Alaska. I

436
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: need to talk to them. We have major developments tonight

437
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 1: in a bazaar and tragic murder case with ties between

438
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: Ohio and Alaska. Investigators want any information the public has

439
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: about the Wagner family. That someone has information, it really

440
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: is in their best interest to come forth voluntarily thank

441
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 1: you of us that information. They're not messing around. We're

442
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: going to laugh for people if they're building average from

443
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: much so it's you, Marri interst to come forward. They

444
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: went somewhere where you had to really want to find

445
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,239
Speaker 1: them to find them, right, They did seem like they

446
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: were trying to get lost in a way. They lived

447
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: in a rural part that's a Kenai peninsula, and Alaska

448
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: is expansive, but I mean everything is so far from

449
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: everything else. I talked with people and you know, a

450
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: little like a little cafe. People knew that they were there,

451
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: but it wasn't any big deal. They were like, oh,

452
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: you mean the people who are wanted in Ohio for

453
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: killing all those people. Attorney General Dwine you know, said

454
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: they were, you know, while not calling them suspects, said,

455
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: you know, they were laser focus of the investigation. And

456
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, actually they're not really wanted, you know.

457
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: I mean that was the thing that was really interesting.

458
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: By the time the news got there, most people thought

459
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: they were wanted, but that didn't seem to bother people.

460
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: I remember quoting a guy saying, well, this is where

461
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: people come to get lost. You know, it's no surprise.

462
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: I remember being struck when we drove there that, well,

463
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: of course they live here. It looks just like Pike County.

464
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: You know, it's wooded, it's beautiful. When I knocked on

465
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: the door, she came to the door and I said, Angela,

466
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: I'm here, let's talk. And she was sort of startled,

467
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: I think, to see me. And then Jake came to

468
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: the door, and the little girl came and Jake Wagner says, oh,

469
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: my gosh, Chris, it's so great to see you. It's

470
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: so great to see somebody. I mean, there was no trepidation.

471
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: But Billie did yell. I never saw him, but he

472
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: yelled from the living room, Hey, Angela, what are you doing?

473
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: You know, get back in here. And she's like, oh,

474
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: don't mind him. You know, his barks hours in his bite.

475
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: I mean, they were like, well, I don't know about this.

476
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: We've got a lawyer back in Ohio. I don't think

477
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: we should say anything until we talked to him. I

478
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: was like, well, i'd really like to do a sit

479
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: down interview. I'd really like to record it. Then it

480
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: became a back and forth about well, who's your lawyer,

481
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: how do I talk to him? Where do I get him?

482
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: What we do I need to talk to him? And

483
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: then I had a long conversation with him on the phone,

484
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: but he was in Ohio, So I go all the

485
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: way to Alaska to talk to somebody in Ohio. And

486
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: he was the one who made it sound like Dwine

487
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: was harassing them. This is all harassment. They've done nothing

488
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: but be cooperative. They've cooperated one hundred and ten percent.

489
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: They've given over their laptops, their phones, they've provided DNA,

490
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: they've agreed to any number of interviews with a BCI,

491
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: which is the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation. They've told

492
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: authorities that they were going to Alaska. The state is

493
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: making them look like suspects when they haven't called them suspects.

494
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: And then he said that it probably wouldn't be a

495
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: good idea to give the interview like they basically agreed

496
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: to it, and then said nope, never mind, we've changed

497
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: our mind, which is really unfortunate. It was the last

498
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: time Chris Graves would ever speak with the Wagner family. However,

499
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: she recently returned to Pike County for the first time

500
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: in years after hearing some shocking news. Exactly five years

501
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: after the road and murders in Pike County, one of

502
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: the four defendants, Jake Wagner, is pleading guilty to all

503
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: counts In exchange, he avoids the death penalty and will

504
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: serve multiple life sentences with no chance at parole. His father, mother,

505
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: and brother are similarly charged, and they've pleaded not guilty.

506
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: Prosecutors say that Jake will testify against them. Hearing the

507
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: prosecutor sort of described that he, you know who's going

508
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: to change his plea and outlining the terms of the

509
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: plea arrangement, and then when she shared some details of

510
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: the crime, it just was like, oh my gosh, this

511
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: is really happening right now. I mean, I'm a journalist,

512
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: so I just sort of think about, what are the facts,

513
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: what's happening, what are they saying. I don't even know

514
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: if I really believe he personally killed five people? I thought,

515
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: is he trying to get his mom off? Is he

516
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: trying to pay the picture that his mom wasn't there

517
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,239
Speaker 1: or his dad somebody wasn't there, So he's gonna like

518
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: hop the majority of them all four were involved, But

519
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: what does that mean? Does that mean two were involved

520
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: in the planning? Other people did something? You know, somebody

521
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: went in and pulled all the trail cameras, but weren't

522
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: involved in the actual shooting. I don't. Again, we don't really,

523
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: and I know I'm saying this all the time, but

524
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: we really don't know. A ton of these details. A

525
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: lot of it, even with his guilty plea, is speculation.

526
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I'm like, well, is he trying

527
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: to spare as he trying to lie about? Who is there?

528
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: I mean, he's lie before, so why would he tell

529
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: the complete truth? Now let's stop here for another quick break.

530
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher,

531
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. Back in

532
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us

533
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke

534
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish.

535
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't.

536
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: He shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could

537
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: lie about anything, but only takes the one time when

538
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for bob, Us girlfriends know

539
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for

540
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll

541
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: be honest with you. If I saw him right now,

542
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I

543
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will

544
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to

545
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

546
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. In our twenty two years of friendship, Andy,

547
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: this has to be the most bizarre thing we've ever done.

548
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,399
Speaker 1: I know, I love it. Our podcast My Vagina said,

549
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: what is a podcast where we ask our everyday Vagina

550
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: listeners to pull up a seat at the best Friend's

551
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: table as we share our most personal and humiliating stories

552
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 1: and ask questions about women's bodies. We are going to

553
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: discuss all body things, like what exactly are we supposed

554
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: to do with our pubs? Oh my gosh, if you

555
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: could have a heart shaped pube that were bedazzled in

556
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: pink rubies or perrymenopause, I feel right now justified. I'm

557
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: going to start my own personal movement. I'm going to

558
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: start blaming anything that goes wrong in my life on perrymenopause,

559
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: us leg hair too long, Harry don't have the will

560
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 1: to clean, Harry Minipade exactly, are whacked periods, boob issues,

561
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: and so much more. Listen to my Vagina said. What

562
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: podcasts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you

563
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. What. This is the unbelievable but true

564
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: story of George Remus. You might know him as a

565
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: character from Boardwalk Empire or as the inspiration for Jay Gatsby.

566
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: He was an eccentric and genius lawyer who figured out

567
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: how to game the system during Prohibition. Remus is in

568
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: the whiskey business, and Remus is the biggest man in

569
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: the business, while living the life of luxury with his

570
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: clamorous and ambitious wife Imogene. Daddy, I am so glad

571
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: you are here. But George Remus's wild existence took a

572
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal. She had Remus

573
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 1: just exactly where she wanted him revenge. Feel this muscle.

574
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: I got this for Remus. I could crush him like

575
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: an egg. And one of the most sensational murder trials

576
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 1: in American history, we the jury find the defendant, Join

577
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: me Abbot Kaylor as we traced George Remus's transformation from

578
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: bootleg King to alleged madman. Listen to Remus The Mad

579
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: Bootleg King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

580
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Afghanistan twenty twelve, One

581
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: Quiet Night, Staffs Aren't Robert Bales left his combat outpost alone.

582
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: He walked into two villages and started shooting, killing sixteen civilians,

583
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: many of them children. Maybe I made a mistake, maybe

584
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: I am wrong, but you have to understand the way

585
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: it went down. We've conducted a series of interviews with

586
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: one of America's most notorious war criminals. They paint a

587
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 1: complex portrait of a man changed by the global War

588
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 1: on Terror. The idea of hurting a kid killing a

589
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: kid Come on. The War Within the Robert Bayle Story

590
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: is an investigating podcast revealing explosive information on one of

591
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: the most controversial events in American military history. Bale's actions

592
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: are merely a symptom of a broken army. Listen to

593
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,959
Speaker 1: the War Within the Robert Bale Story on the iHeartRadio app,

594
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Like everybody.

595
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: I want to know the answers. I want to know

596
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: the details. I want to know, like how you come

597
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 1: up with this? How do you do you? Are you

598
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: all just sitting around the kitchen table like plotting this?

599
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: And at some point, why is it that out of

600
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: four people, somebody doesn't say, uh no, no, it's one

601
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: thing to talk about it. But now we're doing it,

602
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: and we're building silencers and we're plotting things as I mean,

603
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: as it's been described. Some mental way, you're imagining you're

604
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: doing something good for the benefit of your kin, your grandchild,

605
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 1: But why would you put your own kids in the

606
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: heart of murder? And again the idea that of four people,

607
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: of four people who were supposedly religious people, not one

608
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: of you said thou shalt not kill. Not one of you, really,

609
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: not one of you had a moment where you said

610
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: this is wrong. This is fundamentally catastrophically wrong. I honestly

611
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: don't I cannot understand that, Like, was that a surprise

612
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: to you that it was that it was them? No.

613
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 1: The thing that startled me, or continues to I guess

614
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: that I've hard time wrapping my brain around, is that

615
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: you would annihilate eight people or an entire family over

616
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: the custody of your of the youngest member of that

617
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: mine could joined family. But I can't think it's got

618
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: to be about more than that. My gosh, I mean,

619
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: who does this or custody? You know, who destroys a family,

620
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: decimates a family and in essence then destroying that child's

621
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: life to protect that. It just doesn't it doesn't reconcile

622
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: with me. I remember interviewing Tony Rowden. He's the brother

623
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: of the victims and uncle and all of that. I

624
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,959
Speaker 1: remember Tony just saying Chris, and I can't, I mean, please,

625
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: don't let that be true. I hope that isn't true,

626
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: because that little girl does not deserve this, you know,

627
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: for her sake. I just I hope this isn't true.

628
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: An he meant it, I mean, came from a very

629
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: deep and meaningful place. But I guess we're all always

630
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: looking for logical explanations to a logical acts. What has

631
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: been your experience being back in Pike County now five

632
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: years later? The question I've asked people here is do

633
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: people still think about this case? Do people still talk

634
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: about this? And the response that I've got is yes,

635
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: and I guess. I talked to a couple of people

636
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: the other day in a public setting, and they talked

637
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: in the terms of how tragic it is and how

638
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: it's inconceivable. But yeah, I think it's a ballacy, and

639
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: not just in this case but in all cases to

640
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: think that there's like a closure thing. I don't think

641
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: that exists. I drove past the crime scenes and they,

642
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: you know, interestingly, a couple buildings that remain there a

643
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: little bit more weathered I noticed. But it feels like

644
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 1: time sort of a standing still there, you know, waiting

645
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,439
Speaker 1: for an end to this. So I don't think this

646
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 1: brings anybody closure. I think that's some Hollywood nice version

647
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: of well, now you get to move on with your life.

648
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: I think that's frankly bs. I think the amount of

649
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: loss and the ripple effects of that loss will be

650
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: felt for generations. But truthfully has become the most important

651
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: and meaningful story of my career. At the end of

652
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 1: the day, I was doing my work, and I try

653
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: to do that with compassion and empathy and understanding, as

654
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 1: well as trying to find facts and being hard when

655
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: I need to. But it's but then I get to leave,

656
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: you know, I get to leave, and certainly they stay

657
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: with me, and they will always stay with me. But

658
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 1: I don't, you know, I don't wake up every morning

659
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: without a mother, without a son, without my grandchildren, without

660
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,439
Speaker 1: you know, I don't wake up having to figure out

661
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: how to tell those children what happened to their mothers

662
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: and fathers and cousins and uncles and that or I mean,

663
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: my goodness, you know, the conversations that are going to

664
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: have to be had with Jake and Hannah's daughter. I mean,

665
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: I don't have to do that. And that that's what

666
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: I want people to think about when they think about

667
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: this crime. I think sometimes we become fascinated with the

668
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: inner workings of how would one family do this to

669
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: the their family. These are people's lives, and I cannot

670
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: say that enough. And that's what should not be forgotten

671
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: in all of this is that through all of the

672
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: horrificness of the crime these there are so many people

673
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: left behind in this wake. The family was decimated. So

674
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: I guess that's what that I hope people take away

675
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: from this, as opposed to it's a salacious story. On

676
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: June twenty one, twenty twenty one, accused brother George Wagner

677
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 1: will head back to court for a hearing, one that

678
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: could change the landscape of the case moving forward. But

679
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: as we wait, we turn our attention to another story

680
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: that has had a lasting effect on a different community,

681
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: just miles away from Pike County. It centers around a

682
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: notorious lawyer named Michael Moran. He was arrested in twenty

683
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: twenty eight in charges related to running a prostitution ring.

684
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: He's pleaded not guilty to all of them and is

685
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: currently awaiting trial. He's accused of trafficking women all over

686
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: the country, from New York and New Jersey to Florida.

687
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: A lot of these women are part of marginalized society

688
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 1: right Nobody was listening to their stories before or seeing

689
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: them as even human. They were seeing them as criminals,

690
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: people who would rob them, people who were going to

691
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: break into their house, but nobody was really hearing from them.

692
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 1: I wanted to continue to investigate these stories, but I

693
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: didn't know at that time how big this was. More

694
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: on that next time. For more information on the case

695
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.

696
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: The piked In massacre returned to Pike County is Executive

697
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: produced by Steph Knee, Lie Decker and me Courtney Armstrong.

698
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional

699
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. We'd

700
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,720
Speaker 1: like to thank the maud Hammond Flaying Faculty Research Fellowship Grant,

701
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: which supports faculty research at the University of Nebraska Lincoln,

702
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: where Chris Graves teaches journalism. The Piked and Massacre Returned

703
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: to Pike County is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios.

704
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

705
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Carol

706
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Speaker 1: Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's

707
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Speaker 1: Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time

708
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Speaker 1: to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who

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Speaker 1: were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them was

710
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Speaker 1: the spot Barrenbout. On paper, he was perfect, but in reality,

711
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Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko out and to the point she

712
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: went unconscious. I would call him and I would say,

713
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Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. You can listen to

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Speaker 1: the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. These days, more often than not,

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Speaker 1: the success of a company is attributed to its founder.

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Speaker 1: But that's only part of this story. My name is

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Speaker 1: Noah Callahan Bever and I'm brought to present Idea Generations

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Speaker 1: Idea Generations All Angles on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable

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Speaker 1: but true story of George Remus. He was an eccentric

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Speaker 1: and genius lawyer who figured out how to game the

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Speaker 1: but George Ramis's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn,

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Speaker 1: leading to trial, revenge, and one of the most sensational

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Speaker 1: murder trials in American history. Listen to Remus, the mad

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Speaker 1: Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts,