WEBVTT - Technology and Surveillance on Migrants, with Austin Kocher and Jake Wiener, Pt 1 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.400 Hello, everyone, and welcome to it Could Happen Here podcast, 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:09.959 which I'm recording at eight in the morning and thus 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:13.640 without any of my colleagues, and I'm joined today to 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:20.280 discuss the technological aspects of the border regime by Austin 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:24.240 Coca of Syracuse University and by Jake Wiener of the 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:26.040 Electronic Privacy Information Center. 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.880 Hi guys, morning, How are you doing? James good. 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.960 I'm very excited to talk more border stuff. I like 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:36.360 covering this, even though it's sometimes terrible. So what I 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:38.400 wanted to start off with is, I think our listeners 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.519 will be familiar with CBP one, right, the most cursed 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.080 cell phone out of all time, and both of you 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:49.160 have written a lot and very insightfully about CBP one. 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.000 So I thought we could kind of do a little 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:55.040 bit of a breakdown of a the issues with it 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:57.480 and be like with the issues with it as an app, 0:00:57.520 --> 0:00:59.560 and then the fact that we're using an app being 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:04.759 a problem inherently. So perhaps we could start with I know, Jake, 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:06.319 you mentioned you wanted to talk a little bit about 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.120 the design of the app, So in the process of 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.839 sort of commissioning it and making it, should we start there? 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:14.640 Yeah, And I think this story is pretty interesting and 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:19.800 unique because CBP one was built in house by a 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:26.280 small team at the Office Field Operations aw CBP Yeah, 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.959 which is it's unique, Like there's one other app that 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:35.280 they built, and I don't really know of other mobile 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.720 apps that have been rolled out with anything close to 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.680 the size of CBP one that have been designed by 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:42.640 a government agency. 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.000 Yeah, that's kind of an odd choice, you know. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.400 Conceptually, it's not something I'm critical of, Like I think, 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:52.480 if we're going to have a government that's providing services, 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:54.640 it's good for them to do things in house. 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:55.360 Yep. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:59.960 It means you're not relying on third parties who are 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:04.520 able to use information from the app and benefit off 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.400 of it. But it doesn't mean you need the institutional 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:12.600 competency to be able to design an app and so 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:17.920 to just like provide a quick history. Basically, a CBP 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:20.240 one app was built off of the framework of an 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:24.760 older app called CBP Rome. That app was used just 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.520 for people boating on the Great Lakes because technically, if 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:30.960 you go like boating on Lake Michigan, you will leave 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.800 the United States if you chase a fish over the 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:37.800 boundary to Canada. YEA and CBP felt that it was 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:40.640 very important that people who did that reported leaving and 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:47.120 coming back into the United States. Yeah, questionable, But they 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.720 built an app to let people do that, and the 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:54.400 framework for that app used a GPS pining to verify 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:55.600 when you were back in the US. 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:58.560 Okay, this is a small app, you know. 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:00.720 I don't think they encountered too many problems with it 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:05.960 because you're maybe a couple hundred visitors a day. And 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.640 on that framework, they built out CBP one to do 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:15.320 a couple of things. It's used for folks like customs folks. 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:17.440 So if you're importing goods into the country, you can 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.680 do some of that reporting through CBP one and also 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.000 use it to apply for the and obtain the I 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:25.840 ninety four Travel Form, which is the forum that like 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.400 most folks coming to the United States are going to need. 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.080 And then critically for our uses, is that if you 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.760 are applying for asylum, you can use it to schedule 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:36.400 an appointment. 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.520 Yeah, that's been the bulk of my reporting on it, 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:43.640 is that the bulk of its use I think. So, Yeah, okay, 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:47.040 and so I'm still blown away with the fact they 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:49.440 designed it in house. It's it's crazy. Did you ever 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:51.480 find the job did job posting, so the people who 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:53.920 designed it, or did they just like get some people 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:55.520 who were good at it to kind of take a 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:56.120 swing at it. 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.000 The so, as far as I know from you know, 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:01.360 I've talked to one of people involved in the creation. 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.640 I think Austin has as well. My understanding is that 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.480 it was like an in house team that already existed. Okay, 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:09.360 but Austin, you may be able to clarify that. 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:11.440 Yeah, that's my understanding too. 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.720 I think they have a technology team within the agency that. 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:18.800 Is using technology in various ways. 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:21.440 I don't think we have a full understanding of the 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.720 scope of their responsibilities and the work that they've done. 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.880 I think, to Jake's point, it is quite interesting that 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.719 they produce something for the public. It's not unusual, of course, 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:36.320 for large agencies to have teams in house that deal 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:40.799 with all of the general technological challenges that every agency 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:45.040 in twenty twenty three phases, you know, databases, you know, 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.360 keeping government cell phones working and secure and all of that, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:50.320 all of that kind of thing. But a lot of 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:53.320 the things that are public facing from federal agencies tend 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.400 to be contracted out to a private vendor in some way. 0:04:57.480 --> 0:04:59.039 So this is it's quite unique, and. 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:02.120 But they don't think we have a full scope of 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.719 what they what they are aren't producing in house. 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.200 Yeah, they that's interesting because they heavily rely on outside 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:11.239 contractors for so much of it. Like there's a whole 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.200 industry that you know, starts here in San Diego and 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.000 goes over to Tucson and are probably further into New 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:21.719 Mexico of people providing surveillance technology to border patrols, and 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.000 then you know, it goes over to the West Bank too. 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:37.160 Lots of lots of it can be seen. Having talked 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.720 about the the sort of unique approach to design, it's 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.400 probably a good idea to then talk about the implementation 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:45.920 of zapp and it's kind of lacklusters and understandment. 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:47.360 It just fucking sucks. It's terrible. 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:53.480 So like, what in what many ways has it been 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:56.440 unfit for the purpose that it's supposed to do. So 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.520 I guess first we can talk about technological and inadequacies 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:01.920 and then more broadly about why this isn't a problem 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:03.920 you can really solve with an app on a telephone 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:05.520 that needs to broadband and Wi Fi. 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:08.760 Yeah, so I'll start by saying that I think a 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:12.280 lot of what's happening with the problem the CPP one 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:17.200 app is institutional blindness. So the people who design the app, 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:22.040 I genuinely think want it to work well, and I 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:25.400 think they're simply not asking the questions that you need 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.880 to be asking. And when you design app like this, 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.560 which is who's really going to be using it? What 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:35.800 are their needs? What technology? What wireless services to they 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.880 what phones are they using? Basically like, if you're someone 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.400 on the southern border with very little money and probably 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.400 an outdated phone, yes, are you going to be able 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.440 to use this app? Not a great camera? And so 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.880 I think the first place to start with that is 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.239 simply the fact that the app requires a strong Wi 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:59.520 Fi or SELL signal to use, which is not always present. 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.760 And I think Austin has some good insight into the 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:06.599 problems with insufficient Wi Fi. 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.160 Yeah, definitely, you know, I think some of what's interesting 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:13.880 here is the way not only that the app relies 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:17.000 on Wi Fi, but then the kind of real world 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.800 social consequences here for how people then try to cope 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:22.920 with these problems. I want to take one step back, 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.920 just really quickly and discuss the world that CBP was 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:31.280 dropped into because there's some important context here. So as 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.760 I know, you've already covered James. You know, over the 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:40.120 past three years, the dominant border control policy was Title 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:47.520 forty two, a COVID era policy that was purportedly motivated 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.360 by concerns about public health. This is where Title forty 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.760 two comes from. Title forty two of the US Code 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:55.880 pertains to issues of questions of public health. It's not 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.920 an immigration policy. It was a public health policy, although 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:04.440 detailed reporting has I think pretty well established that it 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:08.680 was more of a political moment of political opportunism rather 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.920 than a legitimate public health concern. But regardless, that policy 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:18.239 allowed Customs and Border Protection to effectively turn back anyone 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:20.880 who arrived at the border, whether they attempted. 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:21.600 To cross unlawfully or not. 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.920 And the primary human rights concern here was people who 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.600 were seeking asylum, which is their right to do. One 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.720 of the aspects of Title forty two was that there 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.880 was a rare exemption clause built in the allowed people 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:43.400 who were particularly vulnerable a particular humanitarian concern to attempt 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:48.000 to effectively apply for this kind of exemption. And until 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.400 January of this year, that process was run by nonprofit organizations. 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:56.600 CBP had this sort of informal outsourced system where NGOs 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.520 on the Mexican side of the border would effectively conduct 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:04.920 massive amounts of intake and prioritization and triaging of these 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:09.559 cases and then submit you know, names to CBP to 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:11.240 a lot of people to come to ports of entry. 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:18.080 CBP one effectively replaced that system in January, which meant 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:21.680 that instead of migrants going through the NGOs, they would 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:23.840 have to download this app, fill out the information and 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:27.240 send it in. This is really important to mention because 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.160 the groundwork was actually laid by a tremendous amount of 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:34.200 effectively unpaid labor on the backs of NGOs on the 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.720 southern side of the border. And you know, is it 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:39.920 is fair and accurate to say that this was an 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:44.240 extremely imperfect system and that there were absolutely, you know, 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:48.280 significant issues with this. But one of the interesting things 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:52.600 is that the role that NGOs played meant that people 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:57.960 coming and seeking asylum would then in some ways be 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:02.959 potentially connected with a broader network of NGOs, support services, 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.600 advocacy and so forth. So the introduction of CBP one 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.960 purportedly bypassed the work of NGOs in screening people for 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:15.760 the exemption process. However, NGOs still ended up performing all 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:18.520 this kind of invisible labor because they're the ones who 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:22.560 effectively were working with migrants to make Wi Fi available. 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.240 And it's not just Wi Fi, it's actually charging your phone. 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:29.560 When I visited shelters and camps on the southern side 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:31.200 of the border at the end of twenty twenty two, 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:37.319 a big part of their having camps and shelters was 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.560 actually providing electricity, you know, when I was there, and 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.240 I know others have reported on this, James, I'm sure 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.640 you've seen this too. You know, people would be huddled 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:49.800 around the outlets because they needed to charge their phone. 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.640 If their phone didn't work, if their phone wasn't charged, 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.959 they didn't have access there to CBP one. This was 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.640 already a challenge because the primary form of communication was 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:03.280 CB was phone calls. They would individuals would get phone calls. 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.000 In fact, I interviewed the Russian family on the Mexican 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:11.080 side of the border and Matamotos in last November, and 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:12.920 the family now they. 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:15.440 And many of the other. 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.440 Migrants I spoke with, and this was also true for 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:21.240 many migrants. By the way, the families typically the wife 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:23.720 and children. If there were a family unit would stay 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.360 either in a hotel or a shelter or someplace that 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.920 was more safe, and then the men would effectively have 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.800 nights on the street where they could actually get cell 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.840 phone coverage and things like that. So CBP one introduced 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.520 all of these kinds of technological demands. It's not that 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.600 they weren't there before, but I think it's a different 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.240 matter when you go from interacting with a network of 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.400 NGOs to saying now you're actually interacting with the US 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.880 government and this is the only way that you're going 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:55.360 to be able to enter the country. 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:56.400 I think those. 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.520 Demands were quite high, and they've they've clearly had some 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.920 tremendously negative impacts from migrants trying to come through that way. 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.040 Yeah, definitely, I know have one here, But we've bought 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:11.880 so many of these, like solar powered charging brick things 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.880 and distributed those. But I have so many photos of 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:19.199 people's hands reaching through the wall and people trying to 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:21.199 charge to their phone on the other side of the wall, 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.640 you know, And it's been a big demand for a while. 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:26.480 But it's certainly when CBP were detaining people in paces 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.319 where he didn't have power and then expecting them to 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:32.720 also communicate using their telephones. That became a particularly sort 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:37.440 of ridiculous issue, very upsetting to see it like done 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:42.400 like that. So, yeah, this this app really isn't a 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.520 solution for the problem we're facing, which is, as you said, 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:47.920 like a three year backlug on people who have legitimate 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.679 asylum claims being able to make those asylum claims. And 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:56.600 I guess can we talk about who it favors in, 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:59.760 you know, implementing this system as a catch all, right, 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:03.000 not an option, but the option. Who does that favor 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:03.679 and who does it not? 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.200 Yeah, before we get there, I think it might be 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:10.520 helpful to just run through, like what it is like 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:11.520 to use CVP one. 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:13.720 Oh yeah, you have to go through because it is. 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:15.640 And that's. 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:19.120 When you think about that, think that every step is 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.280 a potential failure point, right, every step you could have 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:25.120 a glitch, And anytime you have a glitch happen, it's 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:26.720 going to kick you out of the app and you 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:31.200 have to restart. So, if you're on a southern border 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:36.439 need to apply for asylum, You've been walking for months 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.320 from Venezuela, Guatemala, et cetera. 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:40.720 You got your phone. 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:43.240 The first thing you have to do is log into 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.560 the app through login dot gov. That's the single sign 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.960 on service that many government agencies use. It works fairly well, 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.440 but you got you, so you register yourself a profile. 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.600 Then you're going to navigate over. Hopefully you speak one 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:01.840 of the languages that CBP one is elbowent as of now, 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:06.520 I believe that's English, Spanish, and Haitian Creole, although they 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:12.960 may have added a new language recently. You find the 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:18.280 right place on the app, not always super clear, to 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.760 submit your asylum application and try and schedule an appointment. 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:23.680 And then you're going to have to fill out a 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:29.720 ton of information. You're giving CBP your name, addresses, people 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.280 you know in the US, big form to fill out, 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:37.080 including often information on like how vulnerable you are, so 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.320 like are you pregnant? Are you disabled? Have you been 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:43.280 threatened in Mexico? Information that they want to use to 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:47.400 prioritize you, hopefully, And then you're going to need to 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:51.080 take a facial photograph that's going to go into CBP 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.800 and Department Homeland Securities databases. It will be run against 0:14:54.840 --> 0:15:00.040 facial recognition searches that they populate with, like the this 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:04.720 massive facial recognition system, the Traveler Verification service that can 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:11.200 flag people who are on CBP's target list TSA's target list. 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:14.040 You could be wrongfully flagged. 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:17.480 By that because facial recognition is not a perfect technology. 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:20.680 You're also going to take a facial liveness scan. It's 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:23.400 related to facial recognition, but it is different. It's a 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:29.480 different technology and it is untested. There's been no government 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:34.640 agency that has evaluated facial liveness for bias, and that 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:36.960 basically is trying to figure out are you a real 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.040 person or are you like a picture of James that 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:44.800 you're holding up because you're trying to get James an 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:46.960 appointment and then sell it to them later or something. 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.800 Do the facial liveness scan. That's been the sticking point 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.400 where folks with darker skin and indigenous folks have not 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.040 been able to get through it. We can talk about 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.080 that a little later. You're also going to do a 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:02.520 GPS pain so your phone, pulling from both cell towers 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.960 and GPS data, is going to try and establish your 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.320 location and send it to CBP. That can create problems. 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:10.960 If you're pinging off a US cell tower, suddenly it's 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.280 less reliable, might look like you're in the US and 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.080 once you get through all these steps, then you're able 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.760 to submit your information and you're in a lottery or 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.600 whether or not you get an appointment. Great. 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:28.120 Yeah, let's the photo thing. I think has been covered. 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:30.760 Maybe I pc betwe have been covered extensively because this 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.000 is what I do. But I think maybe some people 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:37.360 aren't aware of the complete inadequacy of those facial liveness scans. 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.480 And I know some nonprofits since you want to have 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:41.920 light booths, which can help with that, but it's not 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.360 you know, it's again like that money could be doing 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.040 something more useful, right, and then making like a like 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.760 an Instagram booth for people who just want to use 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.040 the exercise illegal right to claim asylum. So let's talk 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.760 about that technology and how it's not working. 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:00.840 Yeah, I think one really important actor here, and the 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:03.160 reason I wanted to paint some of the contexts was 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.840 and partly selfish because as a geographer, I'm always very 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.840 you know, eager to evangelize about the importance of understanding 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.680 social geography for thinking about questions of you know, human 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:17.280 rights and asylum and immigration. 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.200 So the facial life this test is a great example 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:20.479 of that. 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:24.280 So you know, it's hard to see this unless you've 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.560 been on the ground in some of these places. But 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.440 you know, again, just a historical thing that I think 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:35.359 will be pretty non controversial. Anti black racism is something 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:37.600 that's existed for a very long time. It's not just 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.320 in the United States. It's around the world obviously, yea, 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.880 not everywhere, but but you know, obviously through colonialism, through 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:48.760 settler colonialism, and so forth. It's really shaped not just 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:53.520 anti black racism, but anti black racism itself has produced 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:58.680 many of the geographies that we have from redlining, segregation, educational. 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:00.560 Acts, all kinds of things. The way that the social 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:04.960 world looks today is already shaped by these issues of racism. 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:10.359 What that then means is questions like who has access 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.840 to cell phone towers and fast Wi Fi, and who 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:19.800 can afford up to date smartphones that can meet all 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:24.639 of the threshold of require the technological requirements to this 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:28.920 to use. This avenues of software is already distributed and 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.479 fractured by questions of race and identity. What that means is, 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:41.239 even if the facial liveness test worked perfectly and there 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.160 were no issues with the software, which is not true, 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.320 but let's even just assume that it is still true 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.160 that access to that technology and software is already structured 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.679 by race. So one of the things I noticed, you know, 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.520 having spent time along the border, was just how much 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.520 even in some of the shelters and where black and 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:05.639 African migrants had access to shelter, was itself much tended 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:07.879 to be more pushed to the out outside of this 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.639 where you're less likely to get good cell phone coverage, 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.080 less likely to have electricity, much more likely that the 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:17.800 roads even where I visited, were not paved. 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:22.359 And I was there when it was raining in Reynosa 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:25.720 one day, and you know, get some of the places 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:30.920 where African migrants and African families were staying, and black migrants, 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:33.159 by the way from Latin America. Let's just remind everyone 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.840 that there are black Latinos living in Latin America, right, 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.600 We're also pushed, you know, more to the outskirts. And 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.880 as a result of that, those factors contributed to access. 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:49.200 So it wasn't just issues with the software itself, which 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.280 may be there. It's hard for me to evaluate it's not, 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.200 you know, because it's not like we've done our own 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.840 evaluation of that, but it's also all of those contextual factors, 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:58.719 and I just want to make a fine point on this, 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:04.480 we know this already. CBP should understand that already and 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.800 understand the various social factors that impact access. So simply saying, 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.119 for instance, if one wanted to take a defensive position 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.120 and say, well, look, we ran the test, the software 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:17.560 works as intended. There's no racial bias in the software. 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.600 That doesn't get CBP out of the responsibility of saying yes. 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.840 But you absolutely had all the information and a reasonable 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:28.240 person should have known that this access to this app 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.160 had these kind of technological requirements, and then that access 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:33.480 was not evenly distributed. 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.040 Yeah, I think it's really important you said that, actually 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.600 because a lot of reporters it does get reported on. 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:40.320 There are people doing great work, but like sometimes it 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:44.080 gets missed because African migrants might not speak Spanish Black 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:49.760 African migrants and a lot of reporters don't have the 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:52.600 language skills to talk to people in I worked with 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:57.359 a fixer who spoke a Romo to Grian and there's 0:20:57.400 --> 0:20:59.240 a lot about it, like five or six other languages 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.160 and help to get me an insight into the very 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:06.159 difficult situation that lots of African people face. And you 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:09.560 know that their isolation the relative lack of resources even 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.520 in what's a pretty resource spar setting for everyone, and 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:15.520 Haitian people, I've spoken to a lot of Haitian people. 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.359 Plus then you add that, like if I think about 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:24.199 last month, the languages which I was able with through friends, 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.000 through translation to speak to people with you know, Vietnamese 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:33.600 command you is a dialect of Kurdish, French, right, Swahili, Spanish, 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:38.720 evidently Dutch. Aside from Spanish, those are not covered. Maybe 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.320 if you're French you can, I think it would be 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:43.240 still hard to work in Haitian creole of you if 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:47.399 you spoke sort of more mainland French, those are not 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:49.479 covered by that app, right, So you have to find 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.320 a way to access that with via translation. And then 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:57.840 it's very the information makes you incredibly vulnerable to whomever 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.119 if you if you're asking someone to share. Right, It's imperfect. 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:03.159 It's not a sufficient way to describe it, but it 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:17.320 did it extremely flawed system. 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:20.920 To Jake's point, like, I'm also like kind of open 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:25.919 minded about, you know, about using an app like this. 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:28.359 I mean there's I mean Jake's right, I mean, if 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:30.880 you're going to have a government in twenty twenty three, 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.360 like having some reasonably up to date ways to do 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:36.760 things is not an unreasonable expectation. 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.440 But there's just so many blatantly. 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:46.680 Obvious sort of shortcomings that are not difficult to identify 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:50.760 in preparing this app and understanding what people are likely 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:53.800 to need, so to have those gaps and then also 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:57.520 to roll out the app at a time when the 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:01.760 same policy announcement that rolls out this app is also 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:04.200 a policy announcement that says this is the only way 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:06.760 to do it. I mean, imagine if like your new 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:11.200 policy for like healthcare for some you know, particular healthcare 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:13.399 you know thing was like, we have to go through 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:15.720 this route, and we know that eighty percent of people 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:17.520 aren't going to be able to use this, but now 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:19.960