1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Hello, everyone, and welcome to it Could Happen Here podcast, 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: which I'm recording at eight in the morning and thus 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: without any of my colleagues, and I'm joined today to 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: discuss the technological aspects of the border regime by Austin 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: Coca of Syracuse University and by Jake Wiener of the 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: Electronic Privacy Information Center. 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: Hi guys, morning, How are you doing? James good. 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to talk more border stuff. I like 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: covering this, even though it's sometimes terrible. So what I 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: wanted to start off with is, I think our listeners 11 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: will be familiar with CBP one, right, the most cursed 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: cell phone out of all time, and both of you 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: have written a lot and very insightfully about CBP one. 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: So I thought we could kind of do a little 15 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: bit of a breakdown of a the issues with it 16 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: and be like with the issues with it as an app, 17 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: and then the fact that we're using an app being 18 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: a problem inherently. So perhaps we could start with I know, Jake, 19 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: you mentioned you wanted to talk a little bit about 20 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: the design of the app, So in the process of 21 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 1: sort of commissioning it and making it, should we start there? 22 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think this story is pretty interesting and 23 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 3: unique because CBP one was built in house by a 24 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 3: small team at the Office Field Operations aw CBP Yeah, 25 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 3: which is it's unique, Like there's one other app that 26 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 3: they built, and I don't really know of other mobile 27 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 3: apps that have been rolled out with anything close to 28 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 3: the size of CBP one that have been designed by 29 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 3: a government agency. 30 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of an odd choice, you know. 31 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 3: Conceptually, it's not something I'm critical of, Like I think, 32 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 3: if we're going to have a government that's providing services, 33 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 3: it's good for them to do things in house. 34 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: Yep. 35 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 3: It means you're not relying on third parties who are 36 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 3: able to use information from the app and benefit off 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 3: of it. But it doesn't mean you need the institutional 38 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 3: competency to be able to design an app and so 39 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 3: to just like provide a quick history. Basically, a CBP 40 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 3: one app was built off of the framework of an 41 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 3: older app called CBP Rome. That app was used just 42 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 3: for people boating on the Great Lakes because technically, if 43 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 3: you go like boating on Lake Michigan, you will leave 44 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 3: the United States if you chase a fish over the 45 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 3: boundary to Canada. YEA and CBP felt that it was 46 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 3: very important that people who did that reported leaving and 47 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 3: coming back into the United States. Yeah, questionable, But they 48 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 3: built an app to let people do that, and the 49 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 3: framework for that app used a GPS pining to verify 50 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 3: when you were back in the US. 51 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: Okay, this is a small app, you know. 52 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 3: I don't think they encountered too many problems with it 53 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 3: because you're maybe a couple hundred visitors a day. And 54 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 3: on that framework, they built out CBP one to do 55 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: a couple of things. It's used for folks like customs folks. 56 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 3: So if you're importing goods into the country, you can 57 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 3: do some of that reporting through CBP one and also 58 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 3: use it to apply for the and obtain the I 59 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 3: ninety four Travel Form, which is the forum that like 60 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: most folks coming to the United States are going to need. 61 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 3: And then critically for our uses, is that if you 62 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: are applying for asylum, you can use it to schedule 63 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 3: an appointment. 64 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's been the bulk of my reporting on it, 65 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: is that the bulk of its use I think. So, Yeah, okay, 66 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: and so I'm still blown away with the fact they 67 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: designed it in house. It's it's crazy. Did you ever 68 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: find the job did job posting, so the people who 69 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: designed it, or did they just like get some people 70 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: who were good at it to kind of take a 71 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: swing at it. 72 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: The so, as far as I know from you know, 73 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 3: I've talked to one of people involved in the creation. 74 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 3: I think Austin has as well. My understanding is that 75 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 3: it was like an in house team that already existed. Okay, 76 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 3: but Austin, you may be able to clarify that. 77 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my understanding too. 78 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 4: I think they have a technology team within the agency that. 79 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: Is using technology in various ways. 80 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 4: I don't think we have a full understanding of the 81 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 4: scope of their responsibilities and the work that they've done. 82 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 4: I think, to Jake's point, it is quite interesting that 83 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 4: they produce something for the public. It's not unusual, of course, 84 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 4: for large agencies to have teams in house that deal 85 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 4: with all of the general technological challenges that every agency 86 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 4: in twenty twenty three phases, you know, databases, you know, 87 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 4: keeping government cell phones working and secure and all of that, 88 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 4: all of that kind of thing. But a lot of 89 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 4: the things that are public facing from federal agencies tend 90 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 4: to be contracted out to a private vendor in some way. 91 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 2: So this is it's quite unique, and. 92 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 4: But they don't think we have a full scope of 93 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 4: what they what they are aren't producing in house. 94 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, they that's interesting because they heavily rely on outside 95 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,239 Speaker 1: contractors for so much of it. Like there's a whole 96 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: industry that you know, starts here in San Diego and 97 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: goes over to Tucson and are probably further into New 98 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: Mexico of people providing surveillance technology to border patrols, and 99 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: then you know, it goes over to the West Bank too. 100 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: Lots of lots of it can be seen. Having talked 101 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: about the the sort of unique approach to design, it's 102 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: probably a good idea to then talk about the implementation 103 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: of zapp and it's kind of lacklusters and understandment. 104 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: It just fucking sucks. It's terrible. 105 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: So like, what in what many ways has it been 106 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: unfit for the purpose that it's supposed to do. So 107 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: I guess first we can talk about technological and inadequacies 108 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: and then more broadly about why this isn't a problem 109 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: you can really solve with an app on a telephone 110 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: that needs to broadband and Wi Fi. 111 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'll start by saying that I think a 112 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 3: lot of what's happening with the problem the CPP one 113 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 3: app is institutional blindness. So the people who design the app, 114 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 3: I genuinely think want it to work well, and I 115 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 3: think they're simply not asking the questions that you need 116 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 3: to be asking. And when you design app like this, 117 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 3: which is who's really going to be using it? What 118 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 3: are their needs? What technology? What wireless services to they 119 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 3: what phones are they using? Basically like, if you're someone 120 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 3: on the southern border with very little money and probably 121 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 3: an outdated phone, yes, are you going to be able 122 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 3: to use this app? Not a great camera? And so 123 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 3: I think the first place to start with that is 124 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,239 Speaker 3: simply the fact that the app requires a strong Wi 125 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 3: Fi or SELL signal to use, which is not always present. 126 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 3: And I think Austin has some good insight into the 127 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 3: problems with insufficient Wi Fi. 128 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, you know, I think some of what's interesting 129 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 4: here is the way not only that the app relies 130 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 4: on Wi Fi, but then the kind of real world 131 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 4: social consequences here for how people then try to cope 132 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 4: with these problems. I want to take one step back, 133 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 4: just really quickly and discuss the world that CBP was 134 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 4: dropped into because there's some important context here. So as 135 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 4: I know, you've already covered James. You know, over the 136 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 4: past three years, the dominant border control policy was Title 137 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 4: forty two, a COVID era policy that was purportedly motivated 138 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 4: by concerns about public health. This is where Title forty 139 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 4: two comes from. Title forty two of the US Code 140 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 4: pertains to issues of questions of public health. It's not 141 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 4: an immigration policy. It was a public health policy, although 142 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 4: detailed reporting has I think pretty well established that it 143 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 4: was more of a political moment of political opportunism rather 144 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 4: than a legitimate public health concern. But regardless, that policy 145 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,239 Speaker 4: allowed Customs and Border Protection to effectively turn back anyone 146 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 4: who arrived at the border, whether they attempted. 147 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: To cross unlawfully or not. 148 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 4: And the primary human rights concern here was people who 149 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 4: were seeking asylum, which is their right to do. One 150 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 4: of the aspects of Title forty two was that there 151 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 4: was a rare exemption clause built in the allowed people 152 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 4: who were particularly vulnerable a particular humanitarian concern to attempt 153 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 4: to effectively apply for this kind of exemption. And until 154 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 4: January of this year, that process was run by nonprofit organizations. 155 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 4: CBP had this sort of informal outsourced system where NGOs 156 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 4: on the Mexican side of the border would effectively conduct 157 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 4: massive amounts of intake and prioritization and triaging of these 158 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 4: cases and then submit you know, names to CBP to 159 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 4: a lot of people to come to ports of entry. 160 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 4: CBP one effectively replaced that system in January, which meant 161 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 4: that instead of migrants going through the NGOs, they would 162 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 4: have to download this app, fill out the information and 163 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 4: send it in. This is really important to mention because 164 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 4: the groundwork was actually laid by a tremendous amount of 165 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 4: effectively unpaid labor on the backs of NGOs on the 166 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 4: southern side of the border. And you know, is it 167 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 4: is fair and accurate to say that this was an 168 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 4: extremely imperfect system and that there were absolutely, you know, 169 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 4: significant issues with this. But one of the interesting things 170 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 4: is that the role that NGOs played meant that people 171 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 4: coming and seeking asylum would then in some ways be 172 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 4: potentially connected with a broader network of NGOs, support services, 173 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 4: advocacy and so forth. So the introduction of CBP one 174 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 4: purportedly bypassed the work of NGOs in screening people for 175 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 4: the exemption process. However, NGOs still ended up performing all 176 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 4: this kind of invisible labor because they're the ones who 177 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 4: effectively were working with migrants to make Wi Fi available. 178 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 4: And it's not just Wi Fi, it's actually charging your phone. 179 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 4: When I visited shelters and camps on the southern side 180 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 4: of the border at the end of twenty twenty two, 181 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 4: a big part of their having camps and shelters was 182 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 4: actually providing electricity, you know, when I was there, and 183 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 4: I know others have reported on this, James, I'm sure 184 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 4: you've seen this too. You know, people would be huddled 185 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 4: around the outlets because they needed to charge their phone. 186 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 4: If their phone didn't work, if their phone wasn't charged, 187 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 4: they didn't have access there to CBP one. This was 188 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 4: already a challenge because the primary form of communication was 189 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 4: CB was phone calls. They would individuals would get phone calls. 190 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 4: In fact, I interviewed the Russian family on the Mexican 191 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 4: side of the border and Matamotos in last November, and 192 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 4: the family now they. 193 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 5: And many of the other. 194 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 4: Migrants I spoke with, and this was also true for 195 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 4: many migrants. By the way, the families typically the wife 196 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 4: and children. If there were a family unit would stay 197 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 4: either in a hotel or a shelter or someplace that 198 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 4: was more safe, and then the men would effectively have 199 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 4: nights on the street where they could actually get cell 200 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 4: phone coverage and things like that. So CBP one introduced 201 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 4: all of these kinds of technological demands. It's not that 202 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 4: they weren't there before, but I think it's a different 203 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 4: matter when you go from interacting with a network of 204 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 4: NGOs to saying now you're actually interacting with the US 205 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 4: government and this is the only way that you're going 206 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 4: to be able to enter the country. 207 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 2: I think those. 208 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 4: Demands were quite high, and they've they've clearly had some 209 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 4: tremendously negative impacts from migrants trying to come through that way. 210 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, I know have one here, But we've bought 211 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: so many of these, like solar powered charging brick things 212 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: and distributed those. But I have so many photos of 213 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 1: people's hands reaching through the wall and people trying to 214 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: charge to their phone on the other side of the wall, 215 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: you know, And it's been a big demand for a while. 216 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: But it's certainly when CBP were detaining people in paces 217 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: where he didn't have power and then expecting them to 218 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: also communicate using their telephones. That became a particularly sort 219 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: of ridiculous issue, very upsetting to see it like done 220 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: like that. So, yeah, this this app really isn't a 221 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: solution for the problem we're facing, which is, as you said, 222 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: like a three year backlug on people who have legitimate 223 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: asylum claims being able to make those asylum claims. And 224 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: I guess can we talk about who it favors in, 225 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, implementing this system as a catch all, right, 226 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: not an option, but the option. Who does that favor 227 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: and who does it not? 228 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, before we get there, I think it might be 229 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 3: helpful to just run through, like what it is like 230 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 3: to use CVP one. 231 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you have to go through because it is. 232 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: And that's. 233 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 3: When you think about that, think that every step is 234 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 3: a potential failure point, right, every step you could have 235 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 3: a glitch, And anytime you have a glitch happen, it's 236 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 3: going to kick you out of the app and you 237 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 3: have to restart. So, if you're on a southern border 238 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 3: need to apply for asylum, You've been walking for months 239 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 3: from Venezuela, Guatemala, et cetera. 240 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: You got your phone. 241 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 3: The first thing you have to do is log into 242 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 3: the app through login dot gov. That's the single sign 243 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 3: on service that many government agencies use. It works fairly well, 244 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 3: but you got you, so you register yourself a profile. 245 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: Then you're going to navigate over. Hopefully you speak one 246 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 3: of the languages that CBP one is elbowent as of now, 247 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 3: I believe that's English, Spanish, and Haitian Creole, although they 248 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 3: may have added a new language recently. You find the 249 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 3: right place on the app, not always super clear, to 250 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 3: submit your asylum application and try and schedule an appointment. 251 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 3: And then you're going to have to fill out a 252 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 3: ton of information. You're giving CBP your name, addresses, people 253 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 3: you know in the US, big form to fill out, 254 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 3: including often information on like how vulnerable you are, so 255 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 3: like are you pregnant? Are you disabled? Have you been 256 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 3: threatened in Mexico? Information that they want to use to 257 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 3: prioritize you, hopefully, And then you're going to need to 258 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 3: take a facial photograph that's going to go into CBP 259 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 3: and Department Homeland Securities databases. It will be run against 260 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 3: facial recognition searches that they populate with, like the this 261 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: massive facial recognition system, the Traveler Verification service that can 262 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 3: flag people who are on CBP's target list TSA's target list. 263 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: You could be wrongfully flagged. 264 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 3: By that because facial recognition is not a perfect technology. 265 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 3: You're also going to take a facial liveness scan. It's 266 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 3: related to facial recognition, but it is different. It's a 267 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 3: different technology and it is untested. There's been no government 268 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: agency that has evaluated facial liveness for bias, and that 269 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 3: basically is trying to figure out are you a real 270 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 3: person or are you like a picture of James that 271 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 3: you're holding up because you're trying to get James an 272 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 3: appointment and then sell it to them later or something. 273 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 3: Do the facial liveness scan. That's been the sticking point 274 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 3: where folks with darker skin and indigenous folks have not 275 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 3: been able to get through it. We can talk about 276 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 3: that a little later. You're also going to do a 277 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: GPS pain so your phone, pulling from both cell towers 278 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 3: and GPS data, is going to try and establish your 279 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 3: location and send it to CBP. That can create problems. 280 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 3: If you're pinging off a US cell tower, suddenly it's 281 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 3: less reliable, might look like you're in the US and 282 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 3: once you get through all these steps, then you're able 283 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 3: to submit your information and you're in a lottery or 284 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 3: whether or not you get an appointment. Great. 285 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's the photo thing. I think has been covered. 286 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: Maybe I pc betwe have been covered extensively because this 287 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: is what I do. But I think maybe some people 288 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: aren't aware of the complete inadequacy of those facial liveness scans. 289 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: And I know some nonprofits since you want to have 290 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: light booths, which can help with that, but it's not 291 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: you know, it's again like that money could be doing 292 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: something more useful, right, and then making like a like 293 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: an Instagram booth for people who just want to use 294 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: the exercise illegal right to claim asylum. So let's talk 295 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: about that technology and how it's not working. 296 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think one really important actor here, and the 297 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 4: reason I wanted to paint some of the contexts was 298 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 4: and partly selfish because as a geographer, I'm always very 299 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 4: you know, eager to evangelize about the importance of understanding 300 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 4: social geography for thinking about questions of you know, human 301 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 4: rights and asylum and immigration. 302 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 5: So the facial life this test is a great example 303 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:20,479 Speaker 5: of that. 304 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 4: So you know, it's hard to see this unless you've 305 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 4: been on the ground in some of these places. But 306 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 4: you know, again, just a historical thing that I think 307 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 4: will be pretty non controversial. Anti black racism is something 308 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 4: that's existed for a very long time. It's not just 309 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 4: in the United States. It's around the world obviously, yea, 310 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 4: not everywhere, but but you know, obviously through colonialism, through 311 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 4: settler colonialism, and so forth. It's really shaped not just 312 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 4: anti black racism, but anti black racism itself has produced 313 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 4: many of the geographies that we have from redlining, segregation, educational. 314 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 5: Acts, all kinds of things. The way that the social 315 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 5: world looks today is already shaped by these issues of racism. 316 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 5: What that then means is questions like who has access 317 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 5: to cell phone towers and fast Wi Fi, and who 318 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 5: can afford up to date smartphones that can meet all 319 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 5: of the threshold of require the technological requirements to this 320 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 5: to use. This avenues of software is already distributed and 321 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,479 Speaker 5: fractured by questions of race and identity. What that means is, 322 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:41,239 Speaker 5: even if the facial liveness test worked perfectly and there 323 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 5: were no issues with the software, which is not true, 324 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 5: but let's even just assume that it is still true 325 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 5: that access to that technology and software is already structured 326 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 5: by race. So one of the things I noticed, you know, 327 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 5: having spent time along the border, was just how much 328 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 5: even in some of the shelters and where black and 329 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 5: African migrants had access to shelter, was itself much tended 330 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 5: to be more pushed to the out outside of this 331 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 5: where you're less likely to get good cell phone coverage, 332 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 5: less likely to have electricity, much more likely that the 333 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 5: roads even where I visited, were not paved. 334 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 4: And I was there when it was raining in Reynosa 335 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 4: one day, and you know, get some of the places 336 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 4: where African migrants and African families were staying, and black migrants, 337 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 4: by the way from Latin America. Let's just remind everyone 338 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 4: that there are black Latinos living in Latin America, right, 339 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 4: We're also pushed, you know, more to the outskirts. And 340 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 4: as a result of that, those factors contributed to access. 341 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 4: So it wasn't just issues with the software itself, which 342 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 4: may be there. It's hard for me to evaluate it's not, 343 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 4: you know, because it's not like we've done our own 344 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 4: evaluation of that, but it's also all of those contextual factors, 345 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,719 Speaker 4: and I just want to make a fine point on this, 346 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 4: we know this already. CBP should understand that already and 347 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 4: understand the various social factors that impact access. So simply saying, 348 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 4: for instance, if one wanted to take a defensive position 349 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 4: and say, well, look, we ran the test, the software 350 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 4: works as intended. There's no racial bias in the software. 351 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 4: That doesn't get CBP out of the responsibility of saying yes. 352 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 4: But you absolutely had all the information and a reasonable 353 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 4: person should have known that this access to this app 354 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 4: had these kind of technological requirements, and then that access 355 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 4: was not evenly distributed. 356 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's really important you said that, actually 357 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: because a lot of reporters it does get reported on. 358 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: There are people doing great work, but like sometimes it 359 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: gets missed because African migrants might not speak Spanish Black 360 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: African migrants and a lot of reporters don't have the 361 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: language skills to talk to people in I worked with 362 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: a fixer who spoke a Romo to Grian and there's 363 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: a lot about it, like five or six other languages 364 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: and help to get me an insight into the very 365 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: difficult situation that lots of African people face. And you 366 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: know that their isolation the relative lack of resources even 367 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: in what's a pretty resource spar setting for everyone, and 368 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: Haitian people, I've spoken to a lot of Haitian people. 369 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: Plus then you add that, like if I think about 370 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 1: last month, the languages which I was able with through friends, 371 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: through translation to speak to people with you know, Vietnamese 372 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: command you is a dialect of Kurdish, French, right, Swahili, Spanish, 373 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: evidently Dutch. Aside from Spanish, those are not covered. Maybe 374 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: if you're French you can, I think it would be 375 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: still hard to work in Haitian creole of you if 376 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: you spoke sort of more mainland French, those are not 377 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 1: covered by that app, right, So you have to find 378 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: a way to access that with via translation. And then 379 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: it's very the information makes you incredibly vulnerable to whomever 380 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: if you if you're asking someone to share. Right, It's imperfect. 381 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: It's not a sufficient way to describe it, but it 382 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: did it extremely flawed system. 383 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 4: To Jake's point, like, I'm also like kind of open 384 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 4: minded about, you know, about using an app like this. 385 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 4: I mean there's I mean Jake's right, I mean, if 386 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 4: you're going to have a government in twenty twenty three, 387 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 4: like having some reasonably up to date ways to do 388 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 4: things is not an unreasonable expectation. 389 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 5: But there's just so many blatantly. 390 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 4: Obvious sort of shortcomings that are not difficult to identify 391 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 4: in preparing this app and understanding what people are likely 392 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 4: to need, so to have those gaps and then also 393 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 4: to roll out the app at a time when the 394 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 4: same policy announcement that rolls out this app is also 395 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 4: a policy announcement that says this is the only way 396 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 4: to do it. I mean, imagine if like your new 397 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 4: policy for like healthcare for some you know, particular healthcare 398 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 4: you know thing was like, we have to go through 399 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 4: this route, and we know that eighty percent of people 400 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 4: aren't going to be able to use this, but now 401 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 4: this is the only treatment you have an option for. 402 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 5: I mean, that would be that it's just strange. 403 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 4: I think I think one thing to just think about 404 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 4: creatively here is I can imagine a phase rollout of 405 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 4: this where they did improve it over time, but they 406 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 4: were adequate, you know, outlets for people who didn't fit 407 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 4: into the categories that they had built into the app. 408 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 4: And I think I think that would be a more 409 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 4: complex and more nuanced and maybe a more more interesting 410 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 4: way to do it. I just don't think I don't 411 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 4: think it was rolled out responsibly in that way. 412 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think we should be honest that beta 413 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 3: testing an app on hundreds of thousands of the most 414 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 3: vulnerable people in the world is incredibly responsible. 415 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's just cruel. 416 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: It's not in any way appropriate. So I guess we've 417 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 1: talked a lot about this app. Let's talk about let's 418 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: say you're fortunate enough to get an a sign of 419 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: appointment how to enter the US. You would then, in 420 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: most cases enter something which is called CBP's Alternatives to 421 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: Detention Systems icis. 422 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: Sorry, Yeah, you're right. 423 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: Let's explain a little bit like why it's an alternative 424 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: to detention? Why would one be detained if you haven't, 425 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: in theory, done anything wrong? Well, in many people's perspective, 426 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: have done anything wrong, I guess. And then what does 427 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: ATD mean? And then we can get into some of 428 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,239 Speaker 1: the privacy issues and the way that it affects not 429 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: just migrants but also everyone. 430 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, one thing before we go there, I think would 431 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 3: be great, just closing the loop on the racial bias discussion. 432 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 3: This is like an element of my advocacy that I 433 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 3: talk about all the time in different areas of like 434 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 3: how facial recognition is used when it's using the criminal 435 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 3: justice system. Is that there absolutely is bias in most 436 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 3: facial recognition systems. They work really well for white men 437 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 3: and incu increasingly less well basically as you run down. 438 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 2: The privileged spectrum. 439 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 3: That's an element of how these systems are designed, right, 440 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 3: It's they get fed a lot of images of white 441 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 3: men and fewer images of other folks. That's fixable, right, 442 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 3: Like you can provide a training database that is a whole, 443 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 3: you know, a good spread of people. It seems to 444 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 3: not necessarily have been done with the facial liveness for 445 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 3: CBP one in part because the British company that designed 446 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 3: it probably did not have access to a lot of 447 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 3: images of the type of people who would be on 448 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 3: the southern border, talking about like indigenous Mexican folks, Shield folks, 449 00:25:55,320 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 3: just a very large number of different ethnicities. But any 450 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: bias like that is, as Austin said, sitting on top 451 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 3: of a series of other biases, right of structural biases. 452 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 3: And so the result we see with a lot of 453 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 3: facial recognition systems, and this facial ibness system is ceb 454 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 3: going is no different. Is that a little bit of 455 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 3: even to a little bit of bias in how the 456 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 3: facial recognition works gets amplified, and it's amplified by social biases. 457 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 3: It's amplified by the biases of people who run the 458 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 3: system and people who interact with it every day, and 459 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 3: then it's amplified by institutional blindness as well failure to 460 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 3: recognize a problem. We had facial recognition systems rolled out 461 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 3: since on some levels since like the early to mid 462 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 3: two thousands, and we didn't even know that facial that 463 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 3: bias was a problem in any facial recognition system until 464 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 3: twenty eighteen. So when you're thinking about and you're hearing 465 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 3: about like bias testing and the fact that it's been 466 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 3: bias tested, those tests are never incredibly reliable because they're 467 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 3: not done in the real world, they're not done with 468 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 3: the people actually using the technology, they're done in a 469 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 3: controlled setting, and they're not done by people who have 470 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 3: a nuanced understanding of how the technology impacts people. 471 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's very important to remember that. Yeah, 472 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: there's layers of one, layers of bias, and they stack 473 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: to make it harder and harder for certain people coming 474 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: to the United States to get again, what's that right, 475 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,479 Speaker 1: often to just be safe, right, Like some people, especially 476 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: the less advantage you are, sort of on a global scale, 477 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: the likely the less safe you are waiting in Mexico 478 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: to make an appointment for your asylum, right Like, if 479 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: you can't get into a shelter, or you're from a 480 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: group where you don't have community to look out for you, 481 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: you're just that bit more likely to be taken advantage 482 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: of or have something bad happen to you at your family. So, yeah, 483 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: it'll stacks up, I guess to make for a very 484 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: unfortunate situation for people. 485 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, which means the cause of quants of having a 486 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 3: glitch happen is way higher. 487 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: Yes, I've personally known people who have had terrible consequences 488 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: from what should have been a very very straightforward asylum 489 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: application and very easy to process very rapidly. Yeah, it's 490 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: it's it's a whole it's a whole mess. And I 491 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: know I'm trying to speak more to some of the 492 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: folks who work with African migrants because I think that often, yeah, 493 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: their stories just don't get told, especially at our southern border, 494 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: where like I think Obviously there's this like a lot 495 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: of people like to report on the border but not 496 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: leave New York or DC or whatever they have their 497 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: studio or newspaper or what have you. And I think 498 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: it's easy to miss that if you haven't like us, 499 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: you'd said, been around a lot and seen all these 500 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: things stack up on top of one another. But yeah, 501 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: it's an important topic that we don't especially as like 502 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: I know, it doesn't get reported on because everyone likes 503 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: to report on Ukraine and only Ukraine, but like there's 504 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: more wars in our Africa or wars in you know, 505 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: set people from Myanmar. It's very hard for them to 506 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: get to the southern border actually from hearing from thousands 507 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: maybe different cases where people can't leave Thailand. But again, 508 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: the system, you know, when you have a whole other 509 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: alphabet that you're trying to access the system in and 510 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't work for you then and that makes it 511 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: incredibly difficult for those people. And that, ladies and gentlemen, 512 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: is what we call a cliffhanger in the podcasting industry. 513 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: Because we will be back tomorrow with more on how 514 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: ICE tracks migrants and how that tracking of migrants can 515 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: impact other people. People who live within people in their communities. 516 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: I hope you're joined us in. Thanks bye. 517 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 2: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 518 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 519 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 520 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 521 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 522 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. 523 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.