Speaker 1: What is supposed to be for you will come to you.
Speaker 1: And if it wasn't meant to come to you, it won't.
Speaker 1: You are good enough.
Speaker 2: The best selling ardor on Most, the number one healthy
Speaker 2: wellness podcast and Purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome
Speaker 2: back to On Purpose, the number one health and wellness
Speaker 2: podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one
Speaker 2: of you that come back every week to listen, learn,
Speaker 2: and grow. I'm so grateful for our incredible community here.
Speaker 2: The incredible response we've received to the episodes of Late
Speaker 2: It has just been unbelievable. Whether it's you sharing your
Speaker 2: greatest lesson on Instagram or some of you making videos
Speaker 2: about episodes on TikTok or sharing a tweet, it really
Speaker 2: means the world to me to see how many things
Speaker 2: you're changing about your mindset and your lifestyle in order
Speaker 2: to live healthier, more healed, happier lives. And today I'm
Speaker 2: speaking to a guest who I've interviewed very briefly before.
Speaker 2: I was doing a Facebook audio room called safe Space,
Speaker 2: and this was during the pandemic, and I got to
Speaker 2: connect with this guest and since that day, I have
Speaker 2: not stopped thinking about or quoting this conversation to people.
Speaker 2: So when people will say to me, like, Oh, who's
Speaker 2: the most interesting person you've interviewed recently, this person's name
Speaker 2: comes up a million times in conversation, and I'll talk
Speaker 2: about her creative process and how she gets into character.
Speaker 2: And I've rarely had that feeling where I think someone's
Speaker 2: words stay with me for that long. I'm always blown
Speaker 2: away by my guests, but for things to stay with
Speaker 2: me repetitively, and then we've kept in touch, We've had
Speaker 2: we've had a few messages back and forth, but today
Speaker 2: finally got to meet her. I'm speaking about the one
Speaker 2: and only Cynthia Arrivo, Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award winning actress, singer,
Speaker 2: and producer, as well as an Academy Award, Golden Globe
Speaker 2: and SAG nominee. Cynthia burst onto the West End and
Speaker 2: Broadway stages in the color purple and has since taken
Speaker 2: the world by storm. Cynthia was recently nominated for a
Speaker 2: SAG and Emmy Award for her critically acclaimed portrayal of
Speaker 2: a Ritha Franklin in National Geographics Emmy winning Global anthology
Speaker 2: series Genius Arefa. If you've not seen it. I highly
Speaker 2: recommend it. Cynthia will hit the screen in early September
Speaker 2: with Disney's live action retelling of Pinocchio, my favorite story
Speaker 2: growing up. I can't wait, and Cynthia will take on
Speaker 2: the iconic role of the Blue Fairy. How cool. Cynthia
Speaker 2: let was the lead in the h Boys series The Outsider,
Speaker 2: and Cynthia starred in Harriot, where she brought the legacy
Speaker 2: of Harriet Tubman to the big screen. I actually don't
Speaker 2: know anyone who's played this. Many iconic people in their
Speaker 2: lifetime usually just get one go, and Cynthia's taking them
Speaker 2: all up. Cynthia lent her voice to the movie's title song,
Speaker 2: stand Up, which he co wrote. Stand Up won Best
Speaker 2: Original Song at the Hollywood Music in Media Awards, and
Speaker 2: both Cynthia and Stand Up were nominated for two Academy
Speaker 2: Awards as well as two Golden Globe Awards in the
Speaker 2: categories of Best Actress in a Motion Picture Drama and
Speaker 2: Best Original Song. Stand Up also received a nomination for
Speaker 2: a Grammy Award in the category of Best Song Written
Speaker 2: for Visual Media. Please Welcome to the Show, Cynthia, Riva, Cynthia,
Speaker 2: It is awesome.
Speaker 1: Good to see you.
Speaker 2: It's good to see you. And even the first few
Speaker 2: moments we've had. Yeah, you know, there's something about hearing
Speaker 2: a British accent brings it home, doesn't It's I feel
Speaker 2: so like embraced. I just heard your voice come up
Speaker 2: the hill when you were coming up, and I was like,
Speaker 2: sounds I feel like I'm growing up, like you've just
Speaker 2: gone back to being a teenager. Do I make you
Speaker 2: feel that way? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Like whenever I hear because you know, fall in such purposes,
Speaker 1: this is home. But whenever I hear an accent that's
Speaker 1: that sounds like where I'm from, it makes it even
Speaker 1: more home. It's like, oh, I really recognize that. I
Speaker 1: feel like it's a warm hug. Hello.
Speaker 2: Do I still have it though? That's okay, that's good. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I always get worried. I feel like you're probably bringing
Speaker 2: out more of me. I always fel like I'm quite
Speaker 2: the chameleons sometimes with my Yeah, my wife always makes
Speaker 2: fun of me because she's like, every time we talk
Speaker 2: to one of our family in India, you just put
Speaker 2: on an Indian accent, and I do it really unknowingly.
Speaker 2: I do it as like that.
Speaker 1: I think we each have depending on where from. We
Speaker 1: have like traces of what that is, so I know
Speaker 1: that when I'm talking to my Nigerian friends. We've been
Speaker 1: listening to that accent since we were kids, so it's
Speaker 1: not that we aren't we don't have the accent. It's
Speaker 1: sort of like embedded on our brains, so it just
Speaker 1: comes out when we're together. It's sort of like the
Speaker 1: comfortability of it comes out. So I think it's the
Speaker 1: same as when we're around other English people. The comfortability
Speaker 1: of speaking with an English accent, yes comes to life.
Speaker 1: There are terms when I have to sort of like
Speaker 1: shift certain words whenever I'm I'm speaking to other American people.
Speaker 1: There are words that get sort of misunderstood. So I
Speaker 1: might say one thing and they'll be like, what does
Speaker 1: that mean? So I'll find the American version of that
Speaker 1: word and repeat it. And there are times when I've
Speaker 1: had to change the accent to make sure that we're
Speaker 1: both understanding. We get lost in translation. So I totally
Speaker 1: understand why it might be stronger when you're speaking to me,
Speaker 1: because now you don't have to make it any milder
Speaker 1: because you know that I'll understand everything you say.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, there was this I remember when he first
Speaker 2: moved here and my wife would be at the grocery
Speaker 2: store and she'd be like, can I get a tin
Speaker 2: of beans please? Like what's a tin can? Yeah, She's like,
Speaker 2: where's the tin of this? And tin of that? And
Speaker 2: then there was the one that I always I started
Speaker 2: changing my language from being pounds to dollars, and so
Speaker 2: I'd be in a video or an interview, yeah, I'd
Speaker 2: be saying dollars and then all my all my brit
Speaker 2: friends in the comment section would be like, oh, we
Speaker 2: see where you are now. You know you left us now,
Speaker 2: so yeah, what was your you were stock call right? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm North London. So I grew up in like wood Green, Tottenham,
Speaker 2: Mary like that was That's where I grew up. What's
Speaker 2: something that we kind of moved to the States around
Speaker 2: the same time, we just found out What's something that
Speaker 2: you miss about but you love about la.
Speaker 1: I love the sunshine in l a. I love that
Speaker 1: there's there's it's so bright a lot of the time,
Speaker 1: and that it's warm a lot of the time. But
Speaker 1: there is something really wonderful about the way the weather
Speaker 1: changes in London in the UK, the way you get
Speaker 1: the seasons. Obviously, I miss family. I don't get to
Speaker 1: see them as often as as I would do if
Speaker 1: I was there. And like silly things like biscuits, because
Speaker 1: biscuits here are very different to biscuits there.
Speaker 2: Which ones are your favorite biscuits?
Speaker 1: Digestives Mcvitty's Digestives or like hobnobs.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I love rich tea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so good, the.
Speaker 2: One or whatever that ones are so good.
Speaker 1: Like little things like that, you just sort of like
Speaker 1: miss Layers also are not the same as Walkers. Walkers
Speaker 1: are really good. Lays are good too, but all of
Speaker 1: Walker's packets you have to find like the right Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, silly things like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, I love talking about it because
Speaker 2: it's same for me. It's interesting you said that. I
Speaker 2: think I often feel that sometimes when I'm back in
Speaker 2: England and it's like, oh, you live in Hollywood now
Speaker 2: and you live in LA And I'm like, well, no
Speaker 2: to me. I live in LA because the weather's incredible. End.
Speaker 2: I love waking up to a blue sky every day. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I love the fact that I can go on
Speaker 2: a hike. Yeah right here it can be in nature.
Speaker 2: I hike for about two miles every day around my
Speaker 2: home and it's just I love that. I never could
Speaker 2: have done that in London. I never did. And at
Speaker 2: the same time, I miss a lot of it. I
Speaker 2: miss going to watch a football match because I love
Speaker 2: football and so for me being able to go to
Speaker 2: going to watch a game and like feeling the energy
Speaker 2: of the fans, yeah, yeah, it's it's it's special. There's
Speaker 2: like a special vibe around it. But what I like
Speaker 2: to doing on purpose is I like to dive into
Speaker 2: people's journeys, people's stories. Parts of them. We're not we're
Speaker 2: not following a linear or you know, we're not trying
Speaker 2: to do it by graphical peace, But I love diving
Speaker 2: into stuff. And I saw that you went to a
Speaker 2: Roman Catholic school. Yeah yeah, How is that influence now
Speaker 2: when you look back who you are today? Positive? Things
Speaker 2: that were challenging, Like, how do you grapple with that today?
Speaker 1: What does it feel like growing up and going to
Speaker 1: a Roman Catholic school.
Speaker 2: There's a girls school too, all girls school.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's strange because I never really felt like I
Speaker 1: totally fit in there. I believe in God, but that
Speaker 1: sort of upbringing felt really restrictive. It's so rules based
Speaker 1: that you sort of miss the most important parts of
Speaker 1: what that faith is supposed to be about. And I
Speaker 1: kind of let a lot of the Roman Catholic side
Speaker 1: of me go just so that I create I could
Speaker 1: create space for me to form my own understanding of
Speaker 1: what my faith should encompass. Right now, I'm really clear
Speaker 1: on the fact that the most important part of my
Speaker 1: faith is to be as loving and kind to people,
Speaker 1: to the world around me. Not just people. But I
Speaker 1: have two dogs, so I can't take care of them
Speaker 1: in the most loving way because I want that to
Speaker 1: come back to me. So I believe things are really cyclical,
Speaker 1: so if you give out something good, that good will
Speaker 1: come back. You might not see it immediately, but somehow
Speaker 1: it finds its way back to you. It's like a boomerang,
Speaker 1: you know. And I think that that is really the
Speaker 1: most important part of my faith. And I sort of
Speaker 1: encouraged myself to really take in what is around me
Speaker 1: so that I can appreciate the wonderful things that come.
Speaker 1: You know, the fact that I can get up in
Speaker 1: the morning and go for a run and it's really sunny,
Speaker 1: and as I passed by, there are two today when
Speaker 1: I ran, there were two women who stopped and I
Speaker 1: saw them as they passed by, they smiled and I
Speaker 1: was like, let's love of them smiling. And I ran
Speaker 1: back and somehow managed to meet them again. How I
Speaker 1: don't know. I ran three miles, I you know, just
Speaker 1: did a quick five k, but somehow on my way
Speaker 1: back we met in exactly the same place and they
Speaker 1: stopped and I stopped and they just were like, we
Speaker 1: were just really impressed. I don't know, what, what are
Speaker 1: you running for? I'm running for the marathon. I was, oh, okay, great,
Speaker 1: And just those little interactions are really special because well,
Speaker 1: we don't know how either one of us is going
Speaker 1: to influence our day, and to be able to stop
Speaker 1: and have that conversation with the person and smile at
Speaker 1: someone and you know, have something positive means that we've
Speaker 1: put something positive into each other. And I think that
Speaker 1: that is really what it is about for me. And
Speaker 1: I understand that everyone has their own understanding of faith,
Speaker 1: but for me, we're in Catholicism sort of doesn't give
Speaker 1: us the space to embrace all of that.
Speaker 2: It's always really interesting hearing someone's reflection in hindsight, because
Speaker 2: I don't know how it felt at that time whether
Speaker 2: it felt the same way. But I went to an
Speaker 2: all boys school. So I went to Queen Elizabeth's Boys
Speaker 2: School in Barnet, and I used to take like a
Speaker 2: forty five minute bus or to an hour bus sometimes
Speaker 2: just to get there every day. My parents had worked
Speaker 2: really hard for me to prepare for exams to get
Speaker 2: into this school, and it wasn't private, but it was
Speaker 2: a great education. And at the time, it's like all
Speaker 2: of us didn't want to go there because it was
Speaker 2: so strict, it was so like disciplined. But I found
Speaker 2: a few teachers there that kind of had this openness,
Speaker 2: and so I had my art teacher at the time,
Speaker 2: mister Buckeridge, who's still there, I believe, and we keep
Speaker 2: in touch now and again. But he just helped me
Speaker 2: think so differently. So in this space where they were
Speaker 2: like rules and discipline, there was a teacher who just
Speaker 2: kind of I just knew how to navigate enough where
Speaker 2: you were in the rules but not too much. And
Speaker 2: he helped me so much with my thought process and
Speaker 2: my mindset. And now when I look back, I'm really
Speaker 2: grateful that I have this really beautiful experience where I
Speaker 2: feel like I have equal parts discipline, right, and equal
Speaker 2: parts artistry, And I really embraced those two sides. I
Speaker 2: was wondering with you, like you.
Speaker 1: You're right, You're very right. Actually, you're really right about that,
Speaker 1: that there is that sort of like tandem of discipline
Speaker 1: and artistry. My favorite music teacher, my music teacher, and
Speaker 1: a French teacher for some reason, sort of stuck to me.
Speaker 1: Miss Ryecraft and Madame Chesley. They both just wanted me
Speaker 1: to blossom as a creative. Madame Chesley wouldn't let me
Speaker 1: get away without speaking some sort of French to her
Speaker 1: all the time, and now I love the language very
Speaker 1: much so. And Miss Ryecraft made me learn every kind
Speaker 1: of instruments I could possibly put my hands on and
Speaker 1: seeing everything I could possibly sing. But it also gave
Speaker 1: me the discipline of wanting to learn, wanting to be
Speaker 1: as good as I want to be at these particular subjects.
Speaker 1: And you're right in that there is a wonderful sort
Speaker 1: of melding of creativity and discipline that has definitely influenced
Speaker 1: how I live and how I've lived so far.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking that with you because when you
Speaker 2: brought up running, Yeah, you've got to be really disciplined.
Speaker 2: When I see your stories or postally running literally, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm an anxiety. I'm like, I'm so glad. I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm becoming friends with Cynthia, I hope. But as long
Speaker 2: as she doesn't invite me on a run, we're good.
Speaker 2: Like she wants to do a hike, I could do that,
Speaker 2: but it's you record. It's requited so much discipline, so
Speaker 2: much energy, And that's that's all. I'm running first, and
Speaker 2: then we'll move into your artistry. But when you look
Speaker 2: at how much you're running, you just said you run
Speaker 2: a half marathon.
Speaker 1: Run a half marathon? Are over the weekend and then
Speaker 1: this every day is about eight miles except for today,
Speaker 1: which is supposed to be a break day. So I
Speaker 1: did five k and then on the weekend it's sixteen
Speaker 1: to eighteen And how do you find time.
Speaker 2: For this in between roles and prep and like, is
Speaker 2: this something that continues? This?
Speaker 1: It just goes on.
Speaker 2: That's I agree that.
Speaker 1: Like I've been running since I was twenty. My first
Speaker 1: marathon was twenty sixteen. I think I had one mini
Speaker 1: break in between. I was I remember I was in
Speaker 1: Atlantan just decided let me get back to it, and
Speaker 1: haven't stopped since then. It's an ongoing journey that teaches
Speaker 1: you about discipline, your stamina, how your mind works, how
Speaker 1: you psych yourself out sometimes, how you can buoy yourself
Speaker 1: and lift yourself up. And I gained so much from it,
Speaker 1: believe me. There are days when I do not want
Speaker 1: to get outside or on a treadmill and do any
Speaker 1: of it, but that also is a moment for me
Speaker 1: to sort of learn. There are days when yes, it's
Speaker 1: good to stop, take a second and not do the
Speaker 1: run today. But other days it's how can I overcome
Speaker 1: this moment where I'm like, truly not wanting to do it?
Speaker 1: And those days when I'm able to overcome those moments
Speaker 1: when I'm like, I do not want to do this.
Speaker 1: Often other days when the runs are the best, which
Speaker 1: is very strange, but I love it. It has provided
Speaker 1: space to think. It's provided moments where I've made friends
Speaker 1: along the way. People are now used to seeing me
Speaker 1: do certain routes, so I always bump into people and
Speaker 1: I say hello, and it just it gives me a lot.
Speaker 1: The physical aspect is, yes, your body loves it. It's
Speaker 1: great to work out, But it's more a mental thing
Speaker 1: than anything else. Distance running really is more mental than
Speaker 1: physical because once your physical is done, if you get
Speaker 1: to eighteen past half marathon, it really is sort of like, okay, mind,
Speaker 1: how will you get past the rest of this? And
Speaker 1: that's always a really wonderful sort of adventure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Have you felt that that approach to anxiety and
Speaker 2: psyching you yourself out? Have you feel that become applied
Speaker 2: to life through that process of running? Like? Yeah, because
Speaker 2: you give us an example of how that.
Speaker 1: Is, Because honestly, it's those days are the step by
Speaker 1: step days. That's that's what I call them. You just
Speaker 1: take one step, then take the next step, and take
Speaker 1: the next, and the next and the next, and you'll
Speaker 1: realize at some point you're running. That's and that's essentially
Speaker 1: what happens with me with other things. This is a
Speaker 1: silly example. I had to redo my closet. Everything was
Speaker 1: taken out of it, and I've had to put it
Speaker 1: all back together again. And when I first looked at
Speaker 1: this task, it just looked mammoth. I was like, there's
Speaker 1: no way I'm going to get this back in order again.
Speaker 1: And I looked at it and would go away and
Speaker 1: go I'm not it's not going to get done. I
Speaker 1: can't do it. I can't do it. And then one
Speaker 1: day I just said, just start, just start to start.
Speaker 1: Nothing else after that. If you just start, something will
Speaker 1: get done. Even if it's like one small section, you
Speaker 1: will have started, and the next day just start again.
Speaker 1: It's the same for it from learning a piece or
Speaker 1: a song that just won't stay. I'll just start, learn
Speaker 1: the first line and just keep going over the first line,
Speaker 1: and sooner or later the first line will be in
Speaker 1: there and you want to go into the next line.
Speaker 1: You do a piece, or you're playing a character you
Speaker 1: just can't understand. Just read the lines. Read the lines,
Speaker 1: find out what other people are saying, find out what
Speaker 1: the journey is, and then sooner or later you'll want
Speaker 1: to get to know this character. Another way to get
Speaker 1: to know this character is probably to learn the character.
Speaker 1: And when you learn the character, well you've learned the character.
Speaker 1: Now you know it. All these sort of little mountains
Speaker 1: or trials, they're just they aren't always easy, but if
Speaker 1: you just start, you might be able to get over them.
Speaker 1: Even when you're running hills. I never look at that,
Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes you're told look straight ahead. I
Speaker 1: always look at the bit in front of me. My
Speaker 1: eyes are never pointed upward. When I'm walking up a hill.
Speaker 1: I'm always like, if I can just get my foot
Speaker 1: in front of this next foot, and if I could
Speaker 1: just keep going bit by bit by bit, as sooner
Speaker 1: or later, when I look up, I'll be at the
Speaker 1: top of the hill. And that's always what's happened. And
Speaker 1: it's the one thing that doesn't that keeps me from
Speaker 1: stopping in the middle of a hill. I just keep going,
Speaker 1: one foot in the front of the other. My eyes
Speaker 1: are pointed downwards because I know that there's only one
Speaker 1: foot that keep can that the only thing that can
Speaker 1: happen is I'm going to put my foot in front
Speaker 1: of my foot again. And then eventually the hill sort
Speaker 1: of flattens out, and you're like, oh, I got there,
Speaker 1: I made it, Okay, Yeah, I keep going. It's good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so powerful. I love that perspective because I
Speaker 2: think you are right there. We've kind of been trained
Speaker 2: in society to look at the goal, look at the target,
Speaker 2: figure out the end point. And you're so right that
Speaker 2: if you ever try and run or whatever you do,
Speaker 2: whether it's hiking or anything, swimming or whatever. If you're
Speaker 2: looking at the end constantly, you'll keep measuring how far
Speaker 2: you are away from exactly. I know that I don't
Speaker 2: run anywhere close to as much as you do. But
Speaker 2: when I have ever run before, when I have looked
Speaker 2: at the end, I'm just like, how am I going
Speaker 2: to get so far away? I'm still so far away? Okay,
Speaker 2: I'll get to that point and then I'll walk and
Speaker 2: then you know whatever, and then you start negotiating with yourself, right,
Speaker 2: rather than if you are just looking at it. It's
Speaker 2: the same when we were taught to meditate as monks.
Speaker 2: I lived as a month for three years, and when
Speaker 2: we were trained in that practice, we always meditated on beads.
Speaker 2: And you get this beautiful set of beads. So I
Speaker 2: still have them today, and there's one hundred and eight
Speaker 2: of them, which is a sacred number. And you're told
Speaker 2: to just focus on one bead at a time, right,
Speaker 2: And the mind is like, oh, I've got to get
Speaker 2: one hundred and eight beads and you've got to do
Speaker 2: this multiple times and whatever it is. And so we're talking, no,
Speaker 2: just one bead at a time, one step at a time. One,
Speaker 2: you know, and just start. I love that as I
Speaker 2: love that as a view of like, just start today
Speaker 2: and you'll thank yourself later. You'll figure it out.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many times people have asked,
Speaker 1: how do you how do you even do that? How
Speaker 1: do you run so much? I like, I want to start,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what to do, and how like I'm
Speaker 1: never going to be able to run that distance. No
Speaker 1: one is asking you to run that distance. Just go
Speaker 1: outside and stop. Yeah, that's it, putting your sneakers. Even
Speaker 1: if you only make it to the door, that's more
Speaker 1: than you did yesterday. Yes, and then maybe you'll make
Speaker 1: it in front of the door tomorrow, and then maybe
Speaker 1: you'll make it just down your street. That is a run. Yeah,
Speaker 1: five minutes of running is a run. Yes, it doesn't
Speaker 1: need to be half an hour, an hour, two hours,
Speaker 1: Two minutes is a run. Just start. Just a little
Speaker 1: bit is enough and then you'll find more later. You'll
Speaker 1: find that you are asking. Your mind is asking your
Speaker 1: body is asking for a little bit more because the
Speaker 1: five minutes that you did is now what I can
Speaker 1: do that I'll do more.
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Speaker 2: select countries in the EU and Australia. Were you always athletic? Like,
Speaker 2: was that always a part of your life growing up?
Speaker 1: Like, Yeah, I've always I've always been athletic, whether it
Speaker 1: be dance or sport. I was a sprinter when I
Speaker 1: was younger, That's what I sort of wanted to do.
Speaker 1: And then my very first sort of distance round was
Speaker 1: a five K and it was for cancer research, and
Speaker 1: I just wanted to do something and I saw this
Speaker 1: run happening in a park nearby, and I started doing it,
Speaker 1: and I don't know, I sort of was telling myself
Speaker 1: that I can't run outside. I'm not going to be
Speaker 1: able to and then I just figured it out, just
Speaker 1: w I'll just find a route And that's sort of
Speaker 1: what happened. And I haven't really stopped since then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you applied that to your career, Now, did
Speaker 2: little Cynthia ever think that? You know? And I don't
Speaker 2: want to simplify, and I'm very careful about this. I
Speaker 2: never like to simplify someone's success to external accomplishments and awards.
Speaker 2: But did little Cynthia like growing up in stockworld, like
Speaker 2: you know, and you look at the journey you've been on,
Speaker 2: and you know Emmy, Grammy, Tony and more importantly, you've
Speaker 2: paid iconic people who transformed culture. And your work is
Speaker 2: educating people on these incredible personalities that history can try
Speaker 2: to forget or doesn't know enough about, or doesn't know
Speaker 2: the depth of the story. Like, what would little Cynthia
Speaker 2: say to you?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: Like looking at all of that like, who believed in
Speaker 2: you back then? Like was there? Did your parents? Did
Speaker 2: your family? Like? Who knew this was possible? Did anyone?
Speaker 1: My mom believed in me sort of from the beginning.
Speaker 1: She knew when I was a kid that that was
Speaker 1: sort of what I was going to do. Apparently I
Speaker 1: would hum when I ate, so she she was like,
Speaker 1: it's probably going to be a singer or an actor.
Speaker 1: So that sort of, like it was came at no
Speaker 1: surprise to her that this is what I sort of
Speaker 1: wanted to do. And my sister, you know, has always
Speaker 1: been around for everything that happened to her. She's always
Speaker 1: believed in it and has come to some of the
Speaker 1: shows and seen some things. And you know, I have
Speaker 1: really wonderful friends, Mum. One of my friends, pri Hakeem,
Speaker 1: who I've known for almost seventeen or eighteen years at
Speaker 1: this point, has just always been there and like always
Speaker 1: has gotten it and believed in me. And I have
Speaker 1: some really incredible friends who I'm getting to watch do
Speaker 1: amazing things now as well, but they also believe in me.
Speaker 1: And I've been lucky enough to be surrounded by some
Speaker 1: wonderful people. Little Cynthia believed in herself, although I'm not
Speaker 1: entirely sure that she knew how much was coming. She
Speaker 1: sort of kept her head down and just was like, wow,
Speaker 1: too much. It was always a game of like, i'll
Speaker 1: try this. Okay, I'll do that. Now I'm game to like,
Speaker 1: I'll do some backing vocals for this person, I'll go
Speaker 1: and sing it at this sort of club and do
Speaker 1: all those things, and I'll try this young access course.
Speaker 1: And there's just like it's a combination of yes, hard work,
Speaker 1: but also loving the adventure and wanting to try new
Speaker 1: things and wanting to not miss out on something if
Speaker 1: I don't enjoy, you know, I think that she would
Speaker 1: probably pat me on the back and give me the
Speaker 1: mischievous look that I give most people when I'm like
Speaker 1: that's good, and be really really happy, and then she'd
Speaker 1: be like, what else are we going to do?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: What else can we do?
Speaker 2: That's awesome? Yeah, I love that. And it's so I
Speaker 2: actually realized it's more and more that a lot of
Speaker 2: people that I speak to did have people that believed
Speaker 2: in them, Like there was that, and I love hearing that.
Speaker 2: I think it's important to normalize that too, where it's like, hey,
Speaker 2: if you believe in your kids. It's great, it's good. Yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah you should. And then if there's people out there
Speaker 2: who grew up with parents who didn't believe in them,
Speaker 2: yeah that's great. You get resilient that way. But it's
Speaker 2: beautiful to hear that there's two ways. There's not like this,
Speaker 2: Oh well, you should have had everyone telling you you're
Speaker 2: never going to make it and that's the only way.
Speaker 2: And you're like, I, actually I had really good friends
Speaker 2: around me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, And I think I just sort
Speaker 1: of like have been consistently sort of finding my tribe
Speaker 1: and finding people who who are challenging me and wanting
Speaker 1: me to keep being better and keep doing things that
Speaker 1: are different and than there are those friends who are
Speaker 1: just we're here when you want to have like a
Speaker 1: normal day and a cap of ty and like sit
Speaker 1: down and chat, and we need both. And I love
Speaker 1: that balance because it is kind of what life is
Speaker 1: made of. There's never always just the one way to be,
Speaker 1: and I think both influenced the other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've been known for playing so many iconic people.
Speaker 2: Now when was a role where a role that you've
Speaker 2: played that you feel you loved but it wasn't as
Speaker 2: well known or it was something that maybe wasn't as successful,
Speaker 2: but that you really found that you just fell in
Speaker 2: love with it, and that it became a part of you.
Speaker 1: I'm going to say Holly Gibney in The Outsider, although
Speaker 1: that did pretty well, That did pretty well. I've loved
Speaker 1: the roles that I've played, and I've picked I picked
Speaker 1: them really specifically because I want to get to know
Speaker 1: this person. And you know, if I always say this,
Speaker 1: if I if I haven't met this person before, either
Speaker 1: on screen or in life, I'd like to meet them.
Speaker 1: So I that's why I play them. I want to
Speaker 1: get to know who they are and what makes them tick.
Speaker 1: And Holly was just so different. She just she was
Speaker 1: very hard to shake. She was a woman who found
Speaker 1: it hard to communicate, but really all she wanted was
Speaker 1: connection and so had to learn to find ways to
Speaker 1: make herself understood and when she was misunderstood would be
Speaker 1: deeply hurt by it. Extremely intelligent, a brilliant, brilliant mind,
Speaker 1: but also deeply loving in the most individual way. And
Speaker 1: I just had never played anyone like her before I had.
Speaker 1: And what's wonderful about that particular role is I get
Speaker 1: everyone from every different type of walk of life in
Speaker 1: any place, sort of going that show that you did
Speaker 1: on HBO with Holly given that I loved it, she
Speaker 1: was one of my favorites. Or remember a person said
Speaker 1: to me he was connecting with his system more because
Speaker 1: of this particular role and realize that, oh, my sister
Speaker 1: just communicates in a different way than I do. And
Speaker 1: this was the thing that joined us together. And I thought,
Speaker 1: that's what it's about, making pieces that allow people to
Speaker 1: connect with each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Yeah, that's beautiful. I love hearing that
Speaker 2: as well because it's and it's what I appreciate about
Speaker 2: our conversation last time. As I was saying earlier, it
Speaker 2: was like the way you think about characters and the
Speaker 2: way you get into them. I'm fascinated by that, and
Speaker 2: I love geeking out and like I love seeing people
Speaker 2: obsessed with their art, Like that's what gets me excited
Speaker 2: in life. It's like when I meet someone who's obsessed
Speaker 2: about what they do, because I'm obsessed with what I
Speaker 2: do and I can never understand how you obsess over
Speaker 2: the things you do. Can you describe to me again,
Speaker 2: because you told me about this last time, but I
Speaker 2: want to hear it again. For on purpose for this community,
Speaker 2: because you were talking about how like when you're playing
Speaker 2: roles you look at how people walk, Oh yeah, And
Speaker 2: I was like, and how they talk to figure out
Speaker 2: their pitch and then like the rhythm of their walk
Speaker 2: and the pacer, And I was just like, I would
Speaker 2: never think of any of that, But because it tells
Speaker 2: you so much, walk us through when you meet a
Speaker 2: new character, walk us through how you understand them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So when I meet a new character up here, I'll
Speaker 1: read a scripts and the first thing I think of,
Speaker 1: what is the rhythm of this person? Usually there's a
Speaker 1: rhythm sort of written in in the way they speak,
Speaker 1: in the way that in their syntax and the words
Speaker 1: they use. When you find that rhythm, you sort of
Speaker 1: find their internal like heartbeat, You find their heartbeat. And
Speaker 1: then I'm sort of like, well, how do they move?
Speaker 1: What is it that they're looking for? Is there an
Speaker 1: urgency to how they move? If they walk fast, are
Speaker 1: they moving away from something? Are they trying to get
Speaker 1: to something quickly? Do they think fast or if they
Speaker 1: move slowly? Are they apprehensive about something or are they
Speaker 1: really laid back about things? Do they have nothing to
Speaker 1: worry about? If they're anxious. Maybe that's why they move fast,
Speaker 1: or maybe it's the opposite. Maybe they're so anxious that
Speaker 1: they are paralyzed that they can't move at all, So
Speaker 1: they move really slowly because what if I get there
Speaker 1: and something happens? And so I just sort of like
Speaker 1: find what fits on this person. And then it's about, well,
Speaker 1: how do they speak if they are confident, Well, maybe
Speaker 1: they don't need to make themselves sound really sweet, and
Speaker 1: so their voices aren't as high pitch, or maybe they
Speaker 1: are sort of held, and so they're a little bit
Speaker 1: quiet and things feel a little bit whispered. And there's
Speaker 1: a really interesting documentary about Princess Diana and I she's
Speaker 1: really fun to listen to because her voice changes as
Speaker 1: the years go by. When you first meet her, it's
Speaker 1: almost like she's whispering and swallowing the words, and she
Speaker 1: doesn't really use her mouth very much, and it's very
Speaker 1: quiet and very reserved. And as you meet her as
Speaker 1: the years go by, when she's sort of like, now
Speaker 1: I know who I am, she starts to use her
Speaker 1: mouth more. So she sounds really rounded. And that's sort
Speaker 1: of what you're discovering about these people. And I love that.
Speaker 1: I love trying to find out what is this person?
Speaker 1: How do they grow? And do they grow through through
Speaker 1: meeting them and through these episodes through the film. Does
Speaker 1: it change? Does it shift? Do they move more confidently?
Speaker 1: Do they move more smoothly? Are they quick? Are they darted?
Speaker 1: So many questions I would ask myself, and then silly
Speaker 1: things like what scent do they use? Because we all
Speaker 1: have sense memory, So if there's a particular scent they use,
Speaker 1: is it because it reminds them of something? And when
Speaker 1: I put that scent on, does it make me think
Speaker 1: of something? Or do they like makeup? And if they
Speaker 1: do like makeup, is there a particular way they do it?
Speaker 1: Do they want their eyebrows messy or do they want
Speaker 1: them very tidy? When they put the clothes on, are
Speaker 1: they looking for comfort or not? With Holly, I always
Speaker 1: wore a button up because it felt like protection. Her
Speaker 1: neck was covered, and she was wore comfortable shoes so
Speaker 1: she could move easily and she wouldn't think about her feet.
Speaker 1: But those things are you know, they change. With Aretha,
Speaker 1: she needed heels and she needed a look and she
Speaker 1: did her eyebrows particularly, and they were a particular shape
Speaker 1: with an inky black line, you know. And with Seay
Speaker 1: it changed when she put trousers on. She could walk better,
Speaker 1: and she had a heel, a thick, blocky heel that
Speaker 1: meant that she could like make sound when she moved.
Speaker 1: Before then she was in a shorter heel with that
Speaker 1: was like a soft shoe that made no sound at all.
Speaker 1: So it meant that she could move really quickly because
Speaker 1: if she didn't move quickly, she'd be in danger. So
Speaker 1: it's about that how do you find all the things
Speaker 1: that make this person around person so that when you
Speaker 1: when you meet them on screen, you're like, oh, I
Speaker 1: can see this person and their three dimensional, four dimensional
Speaker 1: and not just someone that I read a script on.
Speaker 2: Where did that ability and skill come from? Because obviously
Speaker 2: it can be seen as a technique, but when you
Speaker 2: talk about it, it's not a technique. It's something that
Speaker 2: you know. It's it's not just like, oh, you've read
Speaker 2: that in a book and yeah, it's it's how you
Speaker 2: think and how you feel and how you empathize with
Speaker 2: this person. Even when you were talking about Diana, there's
Speaker 2: someone obviously who've not played. It's like, but you're watching
Speaker 2: that and you're you're able to observe that where did
Speaker 2: that skill come from? How did it develop? Do you remember,
Speaker 2: like where when did you start? Did you start doing
Speaker 2: that when you watch TV when you were a kid,
Speaker 2: or did you you know where? Yeah, where did it
Speaker 2: come from?
Speaker 1: Not even sure when it started. I think I've always
Speaker 1: been a people watcher. I think I've always observed how
Speaker 1: people move, how people are, so that I can better
Speaker 1: communicate with them myself. I haven't always been perfect, but
Speaker 1: like that seems to be my sort of cheat code
Speaker 1: to knowing what a person needs from me in conversation.
Speaker 1: I sometimes watch people's lips to make sure that I'm
Speaker 1: really listening, you know, or watch their eyes, because those
Speaker 1: are the places that give you what the emotional life
Speaker 1: of a person is. And I think I've always just
Speaker 1: applied that to my everyday life. And then when I
Speaker 1: went to drama school, I was he learning about actioning
Speaker 1: and making sure that there is a reason for something
Speaker 1: and what is the reason for the thing you're saying.
Speaker 1: What we say is fifty percent of what we mean.
Speaker 1: Often how we say it, and what we're thinking as
Speaker 1: we say it. The words and aren't necessarily the thing
Speaker 1: that we're thinking they're just a representation of how we're feeling.
Speaker 1: And until you know, when we're not afraid, the words
Speaker 1: are the thing that we're thinking. But often with people,
Speaker 1: when we're saying the thing that we think, the other
Speaker 1: person wishes to hear as opposed to what we want
Speaker 1: to say. And so I learn about that in drama
Speaker 1: school and then just applied it to the bigger, you know,
Speaker 1: space of my life. And then I you know, as
Speaker 1: you get older, you start to want to connect with people,
Speaker 1: and that desire to connect properly with people, I think
Speaker 1: just feeds into my work. I want people to connect
Speaker 1: with the people I get to play, and I call
Speaker 1: them people because I don't see them as just characters.
Speaker 1: When you see the people you're playing, or what people
Speaker 1: would know as characters, as whole and realized people, you
Speaker 1: get to know them better, which means you get to
Speaker 1: give another person, introduce a person to everybody watching, and
Speaker 1: so they get to connect and feel as though these
Speaker 1: are real people out in the world that I might
Speaker 1: not come in contact with, but they exist, and I
Speaker 1: want that for the people that I play. That's the
Speaker 1: desire for connect consistently with my characters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you do you feel that sometimes? And I
Speaker 2: coach a lot of people who act and stuff, not
Speaker 2: in acting obviously in life and work, but how do
Speaker 2: you often feel as well that sometimes those people become
Speaker 2: a part of you and that do do you try
Speaker 2: and shed them? Do you try hold onto them? Like?
Speaker 2: Do you do you like that? Like? Because I don't
Speaker 2: think that's talked about enough. I think we hear about
Speaker 2: in the extreme sense, is a method acting gone wrong
Speaker 2: or like when it leads to like, you know, the
Speaker 2: tragic event of someone taking their own life, and we
Speaker 2: hear about and there's very extreme, but I don't think
Speaker 2: we talk about it enough with actors who are you know,
Speaker 2: going about their day taking on new roles, and like
Speaker 2: how long it takes to become someone and then lose someone?
Speaker 2: And you know, like right now, everyone saying Austin Butler
Speaker 2: sounds like Elvis in every interview, And the thing is.
Speaker 1: I feel for him because I know that that he's
Speaker 1: not putting that on. Yeah, of course not it happens,
Speaker 1: and it's very different for every single person. But for me,
Speaker 1: it takes a while to lose a character because if
Speaker 1: you've done your job correctly, they weren't just a character.
Speaker 1: They were a part of you. You had to infuse
Speaker 1: this person with some of you, and they have to
Speaker 1: come from you. They're in your body. They use your voice,
Speaker 1: they use your face, they use your mannerisms. You create
Speaker 1: them together. They take up space within you. They take
Speaker 1: up a little bit of your heart because you have
Speaker 1: to mean in the things you're saying. And when you
Speaker 1: finish the role, usually after a couple of months, three months,
Speaker 1: sometimes six, I'm about to play a character for a year.
Speaker 1: They are a part of you. And what people don't
Speaker 1: realize is your body doesn't realize that it's not real.
Speaker 1: It thinks that this thing happening is you. It's real.
Speaker 1: So you have to at the end of it, let
Speaker 1: your body know that it's okay to let this thing go.
Speaker 1: But it's going to take a while because you've learned
Speaker 1: to teach your body to do it. Quickly, get to
Speaker 1: that person, Quickly, remove the thing that you know is
Speaker 1: your everyday life, and get to the person that you're
Speaker 1: playing every day quickly. That's what you want, the quicker access.
Speaker 1: So now the access is really quick and to the
Speaker 1: point where, well, now you don't really have to think
Speaker 1: about getting into the role because you're already there. You
Speaker 1: wake up in the morning, you know, oh, I'm going
Speaker 1: to put this on and this is and there we go.
Speaker 1: Do you look at your mirror and I'm here. There
Speaker 1: we go. Hi, nice to meet you. And at the
Speaker 1: end of a project, it takes some time. Some projects
Speaker 1: are easier, like getting out of the Blue Faery very easy.
Speaker 1: I didn't have to shoot for very long, so it's
Speaker 1: lovely and I know it's fantasy and it didn't cost
Speaker 1: me too much. Getting out of Aretha, getting out of Harriet,
Speaker 1: getting out of Holly very different things because I was
Speaker 1: there for months with these people. Holly was hilarious because
Speaker 1: she had a to her walk was very different. Someone
Speaker 1: sent me a video of me walking about on set
Speaker 1: and I was like, that is not me. That's not me.
Speaker 1: Posture was different, warp was different. Wait, the way I
Speaker 1: moved my head was different. The way I spoke to people,
Speaker 1: and even my hair and makeup team were sort of
Speaker 1: like you would come into trailer and it was not you.
Speaker 1: That's not who we met. We met Holly most of
Speaker 1: the time, and it would take a while to let
Speaker 1: them go. The person I just played. Her name's Jacqueline.
Speaker 1: I spent three four months with her, and I still
Speaker 1: remember everything she went through as though it was me.
Speaker 1: And it takes time. If you mean it, it will
Speaker 1: take time.
Speaker 2: Support.
Speaker 1: Austin Butler is walking around with this accent because I imagine
Speaker 1: he shot this film for six months to a year,
Speaker 1: so had to learn this sound. And when you learn
Speaker 1: an it doesn't just leave you. You know, he may
Speaker 1: slip into it just Biax not even thinking about it,
Speaker 1: because that's the person he played. He paid, he played
Speaker 1: a person that existed for six to nine months or
Speaker 1: something and prepare and prepared it before then and then
Speaker 1: rehearsed it and then sang the songs like well, he
Speaker 1: put a voice on top of his own. That's not
Speaker 1: going to go because the film is over. There's no
Speaker 1: way it can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how does that affect your relationships during that time?
Speaker 2: Like I wonder, how does that affect your personal life?
Speaker 2: Because because like you're saying, it's not as easy as
Speaker 2: like on off, on off. You know, it's not like
Speaker 2: there's a switch. Yeah, how does that affect like your.
Speaker 1: Friend it's always easy, but if you have people around
Speaker 1: you that are understanding of the job you're doing, there's
Speaker 1: just patient with you. I have been savvy enough to
Speaker 1: get myself a really good therapist so I can talk
Speaker 1: about it. Talking about it really helps to let go
Speaker 1: of it because you can find the separation between yourself
Speaker 1: and the person you are playing. The more you talk
Speaker 1: about it, the less it's you, and the more you
Speaker 1: let them go. The more you allow your body the
Speaker 1: permission to let go of something which is a life lesson,
Speaker 1: not just an acting lesson, the easier it becomes to
Speaker 1: let it go.
Speaker 2: What was your reason for going to therapy? Was that?
Speaker 2: The reason was that part of it? Or yes?
Speaker 1: That and just like life things things you know, I
Speaker 1: my mum raised me, my father wasn't around, and those
Speaker 1: we don't realize that that sticks to the bones of
Speaker 1: a person. You don't realize it because it comes out
Speaker 1: in different ways. And I just wanted to be freer
Speaker 1: of that. So I wanted to give myself more access
Speaker 1: to the fully emotional parts of myself. And in order
Speaker 1: to do that, I had to let go of any
Speaker 1: resentment or any upset. And it doesn't go overnight, but
Speaker 1: it helps to create space. I wanted to be just
Speaker 1: better at understanding relationships I have in general, where I
Speaker 1: am mistaking something for hurt as opposed to if I'm
Speaker 1: thinking someone is being mean, I need to know what
Speaker 1: are they going through? Also because it might not be vindictive,
Speaker 1: it might not be a mean thing. It might just
Speaker 1: be that they are also hurting. But is what in
Speaker 1: me is seeing their hurt as mean? Am I hurting
Speaker 1: in a place? So it's just finding better ways to
Speaker 1: communicate with people. Therapies really helped me with that, Like
Speaker 1: how do I want to communicate best with people? How
Speaker 1: can I show up as my best self? And that's
Speaker 1: not always to lay the groundwork for really great communication.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really beautiful way. I've never
Speaker 2: heard it described like that. Yeah, I actually think that's
Speaker 2: a really refreshing description because it's almost like, I think
Speaker 2: we literally run from conflict here, yes, unease here, discomfort yeah,
Speaker 2: And it's like personally, professionally, family, whatever it may be,
Speaker 2: and you're just you're running from discomfort to discomfort to
Speaker 2: discompany and you never had time to think about it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you never had time to prepare. Yeah, you never had
Speaker 2: time to debrief, Like you know, you may do that
Speaker 2: at work, but when do you debrief personally after an
Speaker 2: altercation with someone and therapy or coaching or the ability
Speaker 2: to talk to someone in your life, like you get
Speaker 2: to start going, oh, well, I've actually thought about this, right,
Speaker 2: and here's how I feel about it, rather than I'm
Speaker 2: just feeling, I'm just feeling. I'm just feeling.
Speaker 1: And also those feelings end up being exacerbated because you're
Speaker 1: just talking to yourself. Yes, you can't really process something
Speaker 1: if you're just talking to yourself. You need ears that
Speaker 1: can say, well, well, I know that you're feeling that,
Speaker 1: but here's what I'm hearing as you say this to me.
Speaker 1: That has been a wonderful game changer. When the words
Speaker 1: that you're saying are not actually the thing that you
Speaker 1: are saying. Yeah, that's not what you're feeling. The thing
Speaker 1: you're saying is not the thing.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And that's what we all struggle with, is
Speaker 2: that we are This misalignment between what we're thinking and
Speaker 2: saying and feeling is so much more widespread than we think. Yeah, yeah, Well,
Speaker 2: what's a belief that you think that you held once
Speaker 2: about yourself that led you down a scary path or
Speaker 2: a wrong path? Is there a belief or a value
Speaker 2: or an idea you held about yourself that you think
Speaker 2: didn't take you in a great direction.
Speaker 1: I don't know that there is anything like that. I
Speaker 1: think just little things that come up. Sometimes you question
Speaker 1: whether you're good enough for something. We all suffer from
Speaker 1: that in a little way, and some you know more
Speaker 1: than others, varying degrees. And when you're younger if feels huge,
Speaker 1: and then as I've gotten older, it creeps it in occasionally,
Speaker 1: and then I sort of I allow myself to know
Speaker 1: that what is supposed to be for you will come
Speaker 1: to you, and if it wasn't meant to come to you,
Speaker 1: it won't. You are good enough full start, if you're
Speaker 1: doing the work to be a good person, to prepare
Speaker 1: for the work that you want. If I spend the time,
Speaker 1: you know, running every day. No, it is a holistic
Speaker 1: thing that I give myself. My therapist said to me,
Speaker 1: when you do something, or you eat something, or you
Speaker 1: buy something or drink something, ask yourself, are you loving
Speaker 1: yourself when you do that? And if the answer is yes,
Speaker 1: well then you've done a good job. And if the
Speaker 1: answer is maybe not, to something different. If your life
Speaker 1: is a series of things that you know are goodness
Speaker 1: you and they are a series of things that are
Speaker 1: what is known as loving yourself. Then you are good enough,
Speaker 1: and all you're doing is prepping yourself for whatever is
Speaker 1: supposed to come to you. Every time I've gone I
Speaker 1: wanted to do that, and it doesn't come my way.
Speaker 1: Every time something else comes up and I go, oh,
Speaker 1: got it, I know I wasn't supposed to do that,
Speaker 1: because that thing came and that thing is awesome, so
Speaker 1: I want to do that thing. Thank you, Universe, Thank
Speaker 1: you God for taking that out. The way I always
Speaker 1: say to people, every no is just room for a yes.
Speaker 1: Every no is just room for the thing that is
Speaker 1: supposed to happen. You're making room for the yes that's
Speaker 1: supposed to be there.
Speaker 2: I loved your response to that imposter syndrome as we
Speaker 2: call it today, that you felt that the idea that
Speaker 2: anything that comes to you is meant to come to you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So even if you feel that way, and I feel
Speaker 2: that way often sprints and posters in them. All the time.
Speaker 2: I get to do incredible things that I could never
Speaker 2: have even imagined. You're dreamt of doing, and then this
Speaker 2: opportunity comes your way, and you're scared before you prepare.
Speaker 1: You're scared before you even get there, and you haven't
Speaker 1: and you haven't experienced it yet, so you have no
Speaker 1: idea what you're stepping into yet. You just know it's
Speaker 1: a good thing in front of you, and like, what
Speaker 1: if I'm not good enough for it? Am I supposed
Speaker 1: to be here? Yes, you're supposed to be here, not
Speaker 1: just because you're the person that's supposed to do it,
Speaker 1: but you're the person that's supposed to experience it, because
Speaker 1: your experience is valuable. If you share your experience, maybe
Speaker 1: you're the person that changes someone else's mind about this
Speaker 1: particular experience because someone else might be petrified of leaning
Speaker 1: into it. But because you're the person that is experiencing it,
Speaker 1: you're the right person to send the message to the
Speaker 1: next person. You see what I mean?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah, that is so crystal clear. I love that. Yeah, No,
Speaker 2: it's that's exactly what I'm saying. That The what's really
Speaker 2: clicking for me is you're speaking is that idea that
Speaker 2: it's come to me, it's for me to experience, it's
Speaker 2: for me to go through, and that what we do
Speaker 2: is we're scared before you get through it, and you
Speaker 2: probably did better than you thought you would, and then
Speaker 2: afterwards you critique yourself of how you didn't do a
Speaker 2: great job, and then when the next thing comes along,
Speaker 2: you do the same thing all over again. And what
Speaker 2: you're saying is just so fascinating that, Yeah, it's for
Speaker 2: you to experience. I think that's beautiful, Like that's even
Speaker 2: better than just this for you to do, yeah, or
Speaker 2: for you to have. It's like, no, there's an experience
Speaker 2: here that's been perfectly crafted you just for you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And we don't always live in that miracle or like
Speaker 2: live in that space. What have you felt like about
Speaker 2: what you're doing right now that's come that way that
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, this was just for me, Like this
Speaker 2: is the experience I was meant to have. Was there
Speaker 2: something recently or something that's coming up?
Speaker 1: I doing Wicked? So there was another so call that
Speaker 1: I really wanted to do and it didn't quite work out.
Speaker 1: And because it didn't work out, it meant that I
Speaker 1: was available to even be seen for Wicked. And now
Speaker 1: I'm doing it and it came in out of nowhere.
Speaker 1: I one day my agent Gordon was like, so they're
Speaker 1: seeing people for Wicked, And I was like, I had
Speaker 1: no idea this was even happening. And now now it
Speaker 1: is what it is and I'm doing it, and this
Speaker 1: is so far has been a really wonderful experience. I've
Speaker 1: been talking to John, our director, and Ariana, and we're
Speaker 1: really sort of like finding our sort of group, like
Speaker 1: what is our what is the group mind wanting? What
Speaker 1: do we want to tell with this story? How do
Speaker 1: we want it to look? What do we want people
Speaker 1: to feel? How we want to feel when we do it?
Speaker 1: All of those things. And it wouldn't have happened if
Speaker 1: there was a yes there, because this yes was supposed
Speaker 1: to come, you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: How does it feel when you're working with other incredibly
Speaker 2: creative people that one mind can be really challenging. There's
Speaker 2: one getting your mind right and being like I know
Speaker 2: what I'm doing. Yeah, Now you've got three sets of
Speaker 2: imposter syndrome, three sets of excitement, three sets of artists.
Speaker 2: Like what have you figured out as by now? Like
Speaker 2: is there a system of process that you can follow
Speaker 2: to help to make everyone feel comfortable? Like? How does
Speaker 2: that work?
Speaker 1: Often it's about thinking less about and I know this
Speaker 1: sounds counterintuitive, but less about what you need and more
Speaker 1: about what they need. What does this person need in
Speaker 1: this moment to feel confident enough that they can go
Speaker 1: through this with you? What can I do to make
Speaker 1: you understand that I am here for you as well?
Speaker 1: And if I'm here for you, you can be here
Speaker 1: for me. And therefore we can think together, we can
Speaker 1: figure it out together. And I think that once that's
Speaker 1: sort of established, it's just about throwing ideas and like,
Speaker 1: what about this? There's no wrong idea like creating a
Speaker 1: space for when you want a one mind idea, it's
Speaker 1: about that's actually about creating a safe space. And we
Speaker 1: hear the words safe space used a lot, but that
Speaker 1: is really what it is, creating a safe surrounding so
Speaker 1: that we can throw anything at the wall, Like is
Speaker 1: what about this? It might sound completely ridiculous, outlandish, but
Speaker 1: it's okay to throw it in this circle because we're
Speaker 1: all going to appreciate it. We might it might not
Speaker 1: be quite right, but we're going to be like, actually,
Speaker 1: this thing about the thing that's outlandish actually might work.
Speaker 1: What if we applied it to this thing here and
Speaker 1: made it work that way? Then we're all now we're
Speaker 1: of one mind, we're of one accord. We might have
Speaker 1: different thoughts and different ideas, but somehow they all come
Speaker 1: together because we're all there for the same purpose. If
Speaker 1: you find out what the purpose is, we're all going
Speaker 1: in the same direction, well then you can't necessarily go wrong.
Speaker 1: You won't really have to manage everyone's sort of imposter
Speaker 1: syndrome because it's not about us, it's about the bigger
Speaker 1: picture at hand. How do we approach this challenge together
Speaker 1: and make it work?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that idea of I think
Speaker 2: that space of there's no bad ideas and that don't
Speaker 2: judge someone for their bad ideas, judge them for their
Speaker 2: great ones.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and judge them for the bravery to even say
Speaker 1: the idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah first, even though everyone knows it's and you're so
Speaker 2: right that so often a bad idea is actually the
Speaker 2: seed of a great one. It's just that you have
Speaker 2: to kind of put away all the take it apart
Speaker 2: and get rid of all the dust. And there's actually
Speaker 2: something really interesting there, Like there's an interesting perspective or
Speaker 2: a way of looking at it. What do you think,
Speaker 2: Cynthith for you, what's the biggest change you've made in
Speaker 2: your life that you think has had the biggest change
Speaker 2: in your life? Like, is there a habit a practice. Obviously,
Speaker 2: running is a huge one that I think we discussed.
Speaker 2: Is there anything else a change that you've made internally
Speaker 2: in your belief system or externally or in your values
Speaker 2: that you think has been the catalyst for all of
Speaker 2: these mindset shifts and this greatness that has come your way? Like,
Speaker 2: does that come from having had a religious upbringing that
Speaker 2: you've spiritual lies? Does it come you know? Because I'm
Speaker 2: always fascinated by like when you speak and when you
Speaker 2: put these ideas to me, I'm like, there's so much beauty,
Speaker 2: there's so much eloquence, and then there's elegance to it too,
Speaker 2: And then I'm like, well, where how did you know? Like,
Speaker 2: I'm like, I love I guess when you were saying, like,
Speaker 2: when you're looking at a role or a person, Actually
Speaker 2: you said a person, a real person, not a character.
Speaker 2: You were saying, like, you love how they figure out
Speaker 2: how they walk and how they talk and why they
Speaker 2: do this. I think for me when I'm I'm fascinated
Speaker 2: by human behavior from the point of view of how
Speaker 2: can humans change? Right, I think that's what like I
Speaker 2: get obsessed about. I'm always like, well, when that person
Speaker 2: made that shift? What did they do that help them
Speaker 2: to make that shift? And how can other people benefit
Speaker 2: from that?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Or like, how does that person make decisions that makes
Speaker 2: them a better decision maker? Or why does that person
Speaker 2: lie or steal or cheat or whatever it may be
Speaker 2: that ruins their life. So I think, yeah, I'm just
Speaker 2: trying to get to what change did you have to
Speaker 2: make a change in mindset? Or do you think it
Speaker 2: was a snowball effect of just these positive exp speriances
Speaker 2: that you kept collecting.
Speaker 1: I think it's like a slow and steady accumulation of trying,
Speaker 1: just trying things. When I was younger, i'd be I
Speaker 1: was a little scared when I when I first went
Speaker 1: to drama school. What actually happened was I met someone
Speaker 1: at a young Actors company. I told you the story
Speaker 1: before ray m N and she she told me I
Speaker 1: should go to drama school. But before that I had
Speaker 1: I had just gone out on a whim and decided
Speaker 1: I don't want to be at I can't go to
Speaker 1: university and study this subject. It's not it doesn't feel right.
Speaker 1: It's sort of like listening to myself and being okay
Speaker 1: with that this might be a terrible mistake, but I'm
Speaker 1: not going to do this thing that I think everybody
Speaker 1: expected me to do. So I'm going to leave university.
Speaker 1: I'm going to just try this Young Actors Company. This
Speaker 1: course that's at a theater. It's not not that it's
Speaker 1: not a massive course that is around the world, like
Speaker 1: nobody really knows about it, but it just feels right.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to go there. I bump into Ray,
Speaker 1: who I hadn't seen for five years. She tells me
Speaker 1: to go to drama school. I tell her, no, I say,
Speaker 1: I'm not doing it. There's no way I'm going to
Speaker 1: get in. She says, well, you can't come to this
Speaker 1: course if you don't apply to this wow school. And
Speaker 1: I say, all right, I will apply to this school,
Speaker 1: but only this school, just this one, only because you ask,
Speaker 1: and I'm only applying to this. Fine. I apply and
Speaker 1: I do the work. I don't phone it in. I
Speaker 1: really do work to get to these auditions, and somehow
Speaker 1: I find myself in this drama school. What Academy of
Speaker 1: Dramatic Arts. It's one of the best schools in the
Speaker 1: world for acting. And I feel like a fish out
Speaker 1: of water. But a lot of my experience at this
Speaker 1: school is about what feels right for me, because that's
Speaker 1: really how I can gauge it. At one point and
Speaker 1: I was physical, I was working out a lot, and
Speaker 1: one of the teacher says, oh, you should stop work
Speaker 1: out because you get you know, you need to get softer,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't know that that's right.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm going to keep working out because it's
Speaker 1: good for my brain in my mind, so I'm going
Speaker 1: to keep doing that. And I find a person in
Speaker 1: my class who happens to just play the piano. He
Speaker 1: plays the piano beautifully. So we just pick up books
Speaker 1: from the library that are scores of music, and we
Speaker 1: go through these music scores. One of them happens to
Speaker 1: be Wicked, and we learn that score back to front.
Speaker 1: I have no idea that ten odd years later, Wow,
Speaker 1: that thing is going to be the thing I'm doing now,
Speaker 1: no idea. I have no idea. I just love the music,
Speaker 1: and I know that going away to a music room
Speaker 1: with a piano with this person to sing all this
Speaker 1: music feels really good, feels good. We're doing these shows
Speaker 1: and we all are like trying to get our agents
Speaker 1: and whatnot, and I think, I don't think the traditional
Speaker 1: way of getting an agent is really going to work
Speaker 1: for me. So we put on a cabaret in the
Speaker 1: bar because it feels good. I get my agent and
Speaker 1: I finish early. So when I go to do this
Speaker 1: thing we call it the Tree, which is like a
Speaker 1: presentation of different scenes. I just do the things that
Speaker 1: feel good and people love it, and I feel good
Speaker 1: when I'm done and there's no pressure, there's no anxiety,
Speaker 1: and I leave with a show to go to. And
Speaker 1: it's been a series of what's my gut in my
Speaker 1: heart telling me? The color purple came because I knew
Speaker 1: it was coming, and I was like, I know I'm
Speaker 1: supposed to play Sealy. I just know it. I can't
Speaker 1: tell you why, but my gut is telling me. My
Speaker 1: heart is telling me that's what I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 1: No idea about what's happening next. We do this show
Speaker 1: in a little theater with two hundred people. It's a
Speaker 1: two hundred seater, that's it. Towards the end, they asked,
Speaker 1: so do you want to do you think you would
Speaker 1: want to do this on Broadway? I don't think they're
Speaker 1: being serious. Cut to a year or two later, we're
Speaker 1: on Broadway and we're doing this show. I have no
Speaker 1: idea of any of this. I think it's just accumulation
Speaker 1: of genuinely listening to myself and not being afraid that
Speaker 1: the decision might.
Speaker 2: Be wrong totally, you know, yes.
Speaker 1: Because yes, some of it might be wrong, but then
Speaker 1: it somehow is right.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, right, yeah, if you've just farked something
Speaker 2: in me that I think has some truth in it
Speaker 2: is the idea that if you listen to everyone else,
Speaker 2: chances are they might be wrong, right, and if you
Speaker 2: listen to yourself, chances are you might be right right.
Speaker 2: I know there might be some ways that it goes wrong,
Speaker 2: but when you're listening to yourself, you can take responsibility
Speaker 2: for when it doesn't work. You can pivot quicker or
Speaker 2: is that fine? When you listen to someone else and
Speaker 2: it goes wrong, then you just keep blaming them. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: I shouldn't have listened to that personally, And it's like,
Speaker 2: but no, like you don't need to listen to what
Speaker 2: they thought anyway. And so I love that, and I
Speaker 2: love all the dots and they all joint. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: that's the beauty of it, looking back on it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's that beautiful quote from Steve Jobs where he said,
Speaker 2: you can't connect the dots moving forward. You only can
Speaker 2: when you're looking backwards. And I feel like when that's
Speaker 2: exactly what this is, you're like, I just did this
Speaker 2: because it felt good, and I did this, and now
Speaker 2: and I look back. And I encourage everyone to not
Speaker 2: look for the connection moving forward like you.
Speaker 1: Will find it.
Speaker 2: No connection, you'll find it later.
Speaker 1: Just keep keep taking the steps forwards again, one step
Speaker 1: in front of the other. Just keep moving forward.
Speaker 2: That's beautiful, Cynthia. On that note, I mean I could
Speaker 2: talk to you for hours, and I hope we will.
Speaker 2: But we end every episode of On Purpose with what
Speaker 2: we call there's two segments. Yes, one of them is
Speaker 2: called the Many Sides of Us, where we ask you
Speaker 2: to use one word or one phrase to describe yourself
Speaker 2: through different mirrors in different lenses, and the others are
Speaker 2: the Fast Five. So here are your questions. What is
Speaker 2: one word or phrase that someone would say about you
Speaker 2: meeting you for the first time.
Speaker 1: I've been hearing she's very warm.
Speaker 2: That's beautiful. I would have to agree, you're very warm today.
Speaker 2: I'm meeting you first, I me even though we've spoken before,
Speaker 2: and so I'm like very warm you. Actually, the last
Speaker 2: time I interviewed you is only audio, so it's always
Speaker 2: different when you finally and I was like, you have
Speaker 2: a way of speaking that people want to listen. That's
Speaker 2: what I noticed about you. I was like, I actually
Speaker 2: care about what she has to say because of your cadence,
Speaker 2: your tone, You're just yeah, the texture of your voice,
Speaker 2: and I'm so intrigued. So that was something as well.
Speaker 2: That's special. Okay, what is one word or phrase to
Speaker 2: describe what someone would say that knows you very well.
Speaker 1: I'm stubborn, Ah, stubborn about what I like to get
Speaker 1: things done on my own, and it's a trait that
Speaker 1: I am having to sort of like shift a little
Speaker 1: bit because there is that wonderful positive thing about I
Speaker 1: can get it done and I'm pragmatic and get things done.
Speaker 1: But there's also the other part of like it's okay,
Speaker 1: someone else can help you. You can help is good too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it took me. I know what that one feels like.
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, I can relate to that, all right,
Speaker 2: So it's not stubborn in the same way my wife
Speaker 2: has got it. Just clarifying, Okay, Question number three What
Speaker 2: is one word or phrase that you would use to
Speaker 2: describe yourself open, beautiful? What is a word or phrase
Speaker 2: that someone who maybe doesn't like you would say about
Speaker 2: you difficult?
Speaker 1: I don't settle right.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you brought that up. Let's let's have it.
Speaker 2: So I get that feedback a lot, and it comes
Speaker 2: from my inner responsibility that I have this unique opportunity
Speaker 2: to serve the world in the way I want to,
Speaker 2: and I never thought it would be possible. I'm very
Speaker 2: grateful for it. But now I can't settle right, and
Speaker 2: I don't want to treat this as just a job
Speaker 2: or a career or It's so much more to me
Speaker 2: than any of those things. Tell me about how you
Speaker 2: deal with that when you're seen as difficult in your way,
Speaker 2: in your specific experience of that word.
Speaker 1: The way I've dealt with it has sort of shifted
Speaker 1: over time. Before I probably get defensive about it. It's
Speaker 1: in our nature to sort of like defend ourselves when
Speaker 1: we don't like the thing that we're hearing about ourselves. Now,
Speaker 1: I think I have more patience to sort of sit
Speaker 1: and be like the reason why you may think I
Speaker 1: am difficult or see that is because I'm maybe asking
Speaker 1: for things that feel like they're way it's just too much.
Speaker 1: But actually I'm asking for the things that will allow
Speaker 1: me to be my optimum self for you, so that
Speaker 1: when we come away from this, you know I've given
Speaker 1: you everything I can possibly give you in the best
Speaker 1: possible way. It just takes patience and understanding for us
Speaker 1: to be able to meet in the middle.
Speaker 2: That's beautiful. I love that great description. Okay, a question
Speaker 2: number five. Yeah, what is a word or phrase that
Speaker 2: you're trying to embody today, something that you're working on,
Speaker 2: something that you're still today.
Speaker 1: I have this already, but I think it's an everyday
Speaker 1: voyage joy, just seeking joy in every day, like in
Speaker 1: little things, being able to finish organizing something, or I
Speaker 1: did my vanity were around my bathroom and I was like,
Speaker 1: it looks really tidy. That's a little piece of joy.
Speaker 1: Meeting people in the streets I run a little piece
Speaker 1: of joy. I found I don't know, a chocolate bar
Speaker 1: that I haven't had for ages. Joy. You know, I've
Speaker 1: managed to get everything ready and I got the right
Speaker 1: outfit my waters. I'm prepared to date joy like finding
Speaker 1: pieces of joy in the little moments so that we
Speaker 1: aren't just waiting for big, massive things to happen, that
Speaker 1: it actually is an every day build up of goodness
Speaker 1: so that when the big things come, they're just like
Speaker 1: a cherry on top.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's beautiful. And I wanted
Speaker 2: to end with our final conversation around what we talked
Speaker 2: about briefly before we started, was that you were saying
Speaker 2: that you're at this point in life where you're trying
Speaker 2: to figure out the difference between speaking for from a
Speaker 2: place of love and then speaking from a place of fear.
Speaker 2: So often we're trying to speak from a place of love,
Speaker 2: but really we end up speaking from a place of
Speaker 2: protecting ourselves. Yeah, and I wanted to hear how you
Speaker 2: felt today when you were sharing, like, how is that
Speaker 2: evolved for you? Because I think you're so right. I think,
Speaker 2: especially people in the public eye, are always speaking from
Speaker 2: a place of fear because everything you say is like
Speaker 2: can be taken apart and be highlighted, and can be
Speaker 2: blown up out of proportion. And so walk me through
Speaker 2: that for you.
Speaker 1: I think that we've misconstrued what it means to speak
Speaker 1: from a place of love because we believe that speaking
Speaker 1: from a place of love is protecting someone's feelings. But
Speaker 1: by protecting someone's feelings protecting your own because you don't
Speaker 1: want that person's feeling to come back at you and
Speaker 1: make you feel hurt. But actually, if you speak from
Speaker 1: a place of love, you are actually communicating with another
Speaker 1: person about what can can help both of you meet
Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle and understand one another. So if
Speaker 1: I say, let's say something as simple as someone has
Speaker 1: said something that's hurt your feelings, instead of saying that
Speaker 1: thing you said hurt my feelings and I know that
Speaker 1: that wasn't what you meant to do, but that's how
Speaker 1: I felt. That person can go I'm so sorry. I
Speaker 1: didn't mean to That's not what I meant at all.
Speaker 1: Now we've not exacerbated anything. I've just told you how
Speaker 1: I felt from a place of not afraid that you're
Speaker 1: going to get defensive about what you said. It's not
Speaker 1: you said that thing and I don't think it was
Speaker 1: right and it was really mean different turn of phrase,
Speaker 1: isn't it. You're not speaking from a place of This
Speaker 1: is how it felt when it came to me. Is
Speaker 1: that what you meant? Now there's a space to have
Speaker 1: a conversation about well, actually, maybe this is what I meant,
Speaker 1: and now I understand Okay, well, now we can have
Speaker 1: a discussion about something. When we speak from a place
Speaker 1: of love, what we're actually doing is giving the other
Speaker 1: person an opportunity to be understood, and therefore you get
Speaker 1: the chance to be understood as well. When we speak
Speaker 1: from a place of fear, we're trying to stop the
Speaker 1: other person from getting upset, to stop ourselves from feeling
Speaker 1: even more rejection or more upset. And we can't walk
Speaker 1: around like that, are essentially walking around like broken shells.
Speaker 1: That doesn't work. We want to allow people to make
Speaker 1: themselves whole every time we have a conversation with them,
Speaker 1: to leave a conversation thinking, oh I learned something, I
Speaker 1: understand something, I know something. If you leave a conversation
Speaker 1: going did I actually get what I needed from that?
Speaker 1: And that's often how people leave conversations, especially arguments. You
Speaker 1: leave an argument you think, I don't think I got
Speaker 1: what I wanted from that. I don't think I got
Speaker 1: the conversation I needed out of that. I'm still missing things.
Speaker 1: I'm still not understanding certain things. Because we weren't speaking
Speaker 1: from a place of how do we solve this, how
Speaker 1: do we make this better? We're just sort of I
Speaker 1: want to be heard. You want to be heard, as
Speaker 1: opposed to I want to understand you so that you
Speaker 1: can understand me. Now we walk away thinking, oh we
Speaker 1: got something.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so usually by the end of those conversations, when
Speaker 1: you're like I want to understand you want to understand,
Speaker 1: You're like you're good. I'm good. Yeah, all right, should
Speaker 1: we start again again? That's that tends to be how
Speaker 1: those conversations end up.
Speaker 2: Want those Yeah, yeah, I want those too. It makes
Speaker 2: so much sense. And today's Today's been a conversation filed
Speaker 2: with love, filled with joy. Feel does a lot of understanding.
Speaker 2: And I know anyone who listens to this speaking to
Speaker 2: you is like there's there's a there's a therapeutic nature
Speaker 2: to it. It's very like, I feel like anyone who
Speaker 2: listens to this or watches this is going to walk
Speaker 2: away just feeling a sense of joy genuinely because I
Speaker 2: think the way you talk about your life, the way
Speaker 2: you talk about these miracles, the way you talk about
Speaker 2: the connection, the way you talk about the work, but
Speaker 2: also the wisdom that comes from it is really special,
Speaker 2: and so thank you so much. Thank you for being
Speaker 2: here today. Thank you for doing this. I hope you
Speaker 2: had fun. I did, and I hope you feel heard
Speaker 2: and seen and understood. And I want to welcome everyone
Speaker 2: at home to make sure that you share what you
Speaker 2: learned from this episode across social media so that we
Speaker 2: can pick up What were those little moments that Cinthi
Speaker 2: mentioned that connected with you, that resonated with you, that
Speaker 2: you're going to try out that what are you going
Speaker 2: to start I'm fascinated by that. What are you going
Speaker 2: to start doing?
Speaker 1: I like that question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Sydnia, I hope you're going to come back
Speaker 2: a year after year. Yeah, I can't wait for Pinocchio.
Speaker 2: Very excited. Please, I love work it too. It's very excited.
Speaker 2: I cannot wait. I really pumped but excited for this.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. If you love this episode, you
Speaker 2: will also love my interview with Charles Douhig on how
Speaker 2: to hack your brain, change any habit effortlessly, and the
Speaker 2: secret to making better decisions.
Speaker 1: When people talk about procrastination, when we talk about overthinking,
Speaker 1: what they're really talking about is they're talking about the
Speaker 1: first step.
Speaker 2: Once you take the first step, it's usually