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Speaker 1: I originally interviewed Raymond Santana on the very first episode

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Speaker 1: of Wrongful Conviction, which aired it seems like a long

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Speaker 1: time ago on October third of twenty sixteen. I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited to see what's happening for my friend Raymond. Not

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Speaker 1: only is he now an activist, a clothing designer, and

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Speaker 1: an accomplished and celebrated public speaker. He also launched a

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Speaker 1: clothing company called Park Madison, NYC in twenty eighteen. And

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Speaker 1: Raymond is a course featured in the hit Netflix show

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Speaker 1: When They See Us, which prepared on May thirty one,

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. And it's so great to see him out

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Speaker 1: and about in the spotlight, spreading a good word, beaming

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Speaker 1: out that positive energy that he has. I also encourage

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Speaker 1: you to watch Raymond and I did a speech together.

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Speaker 1: If you google my name in Nantucket project, you'll see

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Speaker 1: it right away. Raymond, you deserve all the success and more.

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Speaker 1: And now please listen to the first episode the premiere

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Speaker 1: of Wrongful Conviction with Raymond Santana.

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Speaker 2: I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life.

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Speaker 1: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first

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Speaker 1: day of my high school year.

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Speaker 2: I was going to be a senior. At twenty two,

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Speaker 2: I was set to start college.

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Speaker 1: I woke up and my life was never the same again.

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Speaker 3: Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw

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Speaker 3: freedom ever since after that.

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Speaker 2: It's like roach motw Once you get in, you're not

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Speaker 2: get mouthed.

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Speaker 1: On April nineteenth, nineteen eighty nine, fourteen year old Raymond

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Speaker 1: Santana was arrested and charged with one of the most

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Speaker 1: notorious crimes in the history of New York City, the

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Speaker 1: rape and brutal beating of a woman who became known

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Speaker 1: as the Central Park jogger.

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Speaker 2: Five youths were arrested at ninety sixth Street, four between

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Speaker 2: fourteen and fifteen years of age.

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Speaker 4: Police are still questioning some of them the young suspects.

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Speaker 1: They believe were involved in last night's attack. Immediately following

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Speaker 1: the crime, New York City police picked up Raymond and

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Speaker 1: four other teenage boys. They were interrogated separately. They were

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Speaker 1: denied food, water, and access to lawyers, and they were

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Speaker 1: held for between fifteen and thirty hours until each of

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Speaker 1: them confessed to a crime they did not commit.

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Speaker 3: And he says, so where will you? And I said well,

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Speaker 3: I saw it from a distance. I was witnessing it,

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Speaker 3: and he said that's not good enough. He said, you

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Speaker 3: have to place yourself at the scene. You have to

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Speaker 3: be right there watching it.

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Speaker 1: All five of them were convicted. This is wrongful conviction

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Speaker 1: with Jason Flomm.

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Speaker 2: Its bad.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's so bad, Raymond. Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Raymond. I want to go back and talk about your

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Speaker 1: crazy life story because I lived through it. I'm a

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Speaker 1: New Yorker. Yeah, and I remember very well seeing your

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Speaker 1: face on the front of every newspaper, and you were

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Speaker 1: one of the most hated people in New York City

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Speaker 1: at the times.

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Speaker 2: That's fair to say, that's correct. You were like the

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Speaker 2: face of evil.

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Speaker 4: Yes, there is anger over this incident that seems to

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Speaker 4: have only grown in the day since the assault occurred.

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Speaker 4: I also wanted to take them after they get out

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Speaker 4: of Gail and put them in the Gorilla Cajun, the

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Speaker 4: Park Zoo, the New Zoo, see if they could survive it.

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Speaker 3: I think that's analogous to what they did to her.

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Speaker 4: The punishment has to fit the crime.

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Speaker 1: Castrate them. They can't only one problem. You didn't do it.

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Speaker 2: That's a big problem. That's a big problem.

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Speaker 1: But I want to go even further back than that.

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Speaker 1: First of all, what's your where are you from? What's

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Speaker 1: your family from? Let's talk about your childhood before this

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Speaker 1: all came down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, originally I was born in Harlem, moved to the Bronx.

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Speaker 2: My dad was from Puerto Rico.

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Speaker 3: Mother was born here, she's Puerto Rican and also, and

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Speaker 3: my childhood was like any other childhood, right, middle class family.

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Speaker 3: Father works you know, at a hospital. He was there

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Speaker 3: for about forty four years old total. My mom's was

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Speaker 3: a housewife. It was me and my sister growing up.

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Speaker 1: So you're growing up. I mean you were fourteen years

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Speaker 1: old when this happened, right, correct, Yeah, I mean and

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Speaker 1: when I think about how young that is, many of

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Speaker 1: the audience have kids, teenage kids. I mean fourteen, you're

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Speaker 1: a child. Yes, I mean at fifteen or sixteen, you're

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Speaker 1: starting to become moving towards adulthood, right, but at fourteen,

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Speaker 1: you're a child. Let's face it.

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Speaker 3: At fourteen, you know, my dad wasn't even thinking about

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Speaker 3: all right, let me sit them down and fill out

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Speaker 3: an application, right, show him how to do that, you know,

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Speaker 3: show him how to take a girl on the date,

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Speaker 3: like that stuff wasn't even coming in yet.

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Speaker 1: That maybe you shaved once by then maybe not even

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Speaker 1: you're not going on.

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Speaker 2: Dates yet, You're like eighth grader pretty much. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: was about yeah, about yeah, seven seventh day. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to the night of this horrendous

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Speaker 1: crime and this terrible nightmare that you and the other four,

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Speaker 1: the other four guys went through. First of all, you

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Speaker 1: didn't know those guys, did you.

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Speaker 2: No, I did not.

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Speaker 1: So the case, let's talk about the case a little bit.

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Speaker 1: So the Central Park jeogra case. The fact is Central

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Speaker 1: Park jogger case. This was in the well, I guess

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Speaker 1: it was in the early nineties.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, nineteen eighty nine and eighty nine, right.

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Speaker 1: So the crime in New York City was out of

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Speaker 1: control at that time. There was a lot of fear,

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Speaker 1: a lot of panic, a lot of violence, and this

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Speaker 1: case hit all the trigger points because what happened was

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Speaker 1: there was a woman, a wealthy woman from the Upper

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Speaker 1: East Side, white woman, who was jogging in the park

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Speaker 1: at night and was attacked, dragged into the bushes and

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Speaker 1: raped and beaten almost to death. This became a huge

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Speaker 1: flash point, a lot of pressure on the cops to

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Speaker 1: figure this out real quick, right, I imagine the mayor

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Speaker 1: everybody must have been calling like get this figured out

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Speaker 1: right now. So let's go. Let's go to the night

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Speaker 1: of the of the crime. So where were you? What

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Speaker 1: were you doing?

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Speaker 3: Well, it started out because I lived originally, I lived

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Speaker 3: on one hundred and nineteenth Street and like between Lexington

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Speaker 3: and Park, right next to the twenty fifth precinct.

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Speaker 1: So so ironically yeah right, And so as it turns out.

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Speaker 3: Some guys that I went to school with lived in

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Speaker 3: tap Houses, which is, you know, roughly about five six

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Speaker 3: blocks away, and that night we planned to go to

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Speaker 3: Shamberg because there was a party there.

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Speaker 1: That's another housing project.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's where Yusuf and Kevin and Corey they live

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Speaker 3: over there.

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Speaker 2: So so I didn't know these guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't know these guys, but there was mutual

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Speaker 3: friends within their group and there was mutual friends within

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Speaker 3: my group. And that's how we came to meet up

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Speaker 3: in front of Shamberg and talk to these guys.

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Speaker 1: And then from the now, just so for people who

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Speaker 1: are let saying that I don't expect people to know this,

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Speaker 1: but Central Park goes from fifty ninth Street to one

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Speaker 1: hundred and tenth Street in New York and it goes

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Speaker 1: from Fifth Avenue to Central Park West. Yes, this crime

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Speaker 1: happened in the northern section.

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Speaker 2: Of the park around one hundred and second Street.

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Speaker 1: Right, So naturally the cops are up there looking and

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Speaker 1: they're looking for, you know, suspects in that area. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you weren't. I mean, you were still a good

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Speaker 1: half a mile away at least from the crime scene

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Speaker 1: at this point. So it was at the Schaumberg houses.

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Speaker 1: How did let's get to where? How did you get

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Speaker 1: picked up? Where'd you guys go from the Chamberg House?

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Speaker 1: Why did you happen to be standing somewhere that the

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Speaker 1: cops would happen to look at you and say, let's

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Speaker 1: grab this guy and the other guys.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So what happened was that we went into the park, right,

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Speaker 2: and so me.

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Speaker 1: Just looking at something that was yeah, because.

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Speaker 2: We was out out there talking.

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Speaker 3: There was a bunch of guys, and then guys started

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Speaker 3: going into the park in that one hundred and tenth

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Speaker 3: street area, right there on the corner, because that's the

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Speaker 3: corner of the park.

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Speaker 2: They live right across the street from me, and.

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Speaker 3: So that was something that they did all the time,

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Speaker 3: Like they always went into the park and hung out

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Speaker 3: in that corner area on one hundred tenth Street and fifth, Yes,

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Speaker 3: one hundred.

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Speaker 2: Tenth and fifth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so to them that was like their backyard, you know,

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Speaker 3: the Shaanberg boys always was in the park. And so

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Speaker 3: we did go with the park with them, and then

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Speaker 3: from there we wound up traveling to the park. They

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Speaker 3: did walk into the park and they wound up traveling

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Speaker 3: going south into the park. Now, there was some things

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Speaker 3: that happened that night because it was a very large

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Speaker 3: group at this time. You know how many kids We're

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Speaker 3: talking over thirty kids and this group. I was with

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Speaker 3: the group, but I didn't know I didn't know majority

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Speaker 3: of them. I knew just the guys that I came with.

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Speaker 1: And you were the youngest or one of the youngest.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was one of the youngest. And so there

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Speaker 3: were some guys in there who were rowdy, right, and

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Speaker 3: so one guy did get assaulted, who was a Hispanic man,

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Speaker 3: and then I think three people got sorted by the reservoir.

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Speaker 2: When that happened is when we left the.

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Speaker 1: Park.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's in the park. And so when that.

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Speaker 3: Last incident happened with those three people is when the

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Speaker 3: group left, like the guys who I came with, they

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Speaker 3: was like, we're leaving the park. And so as we

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Speaker 3: left the park, we was on Central Park West, like

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Speaker 3: on around one hundred and second Street, and that's where

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Speaker 3: the police came and I got picked up at And

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Speaker 3: so the guys who I came with, they had left,

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Speaker 3: and so I was there walking with a group of

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Speaker 3: people who I didn't know, and so a small group.

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Speaker 3: And so when the police did approach, that group scattered,

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Speaker 3: and so one of the officers grabbed me, and then

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Speaker 3: there was another kid who he grabbed by the name

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Speaker 3: of Steven Lopez, who I didn't even know.

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Speaker 1: And now they grabbed you because you didn't run, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because I didn't run. And why didn't you run?

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Speaker 2: Because I didn't do anything, So there was no reason

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Speaker 2: to run. There's a good answer, right, Yeah, I didn't

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Speaker 2: do anything. And so and you trusted the cops at

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Speaker 2: this point, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I never had no dealings with them, I never had

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Speaker 3: no bad experience with them, so you know, it was

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Speaker 3: no reason for me to run, right, And so you know,

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Speaker 3: I just I told himself, well, why are you stopping

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Speaker 3: me because I ain't doing anything, and he pulled he

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Speaker 3: had to walk, he talking, and he hit me over

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Speaker 3: the head with the water talkie. Right, he put me

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Speaker 3: on the wall. So I just did in the wall

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Speaker 3: and I ain't seen anything. And then he also grafts

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Speaker 3: Steve Lopez and put him on the wall. And by

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Speaker 3: this time the rest of the group that looked group

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Speaker 3: that he was with the scattered.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so anyway, so they take so they arrest you.

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Speaker 1: Do you know why you're being arrested?

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Speaker 2: No, I just plant don't.

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Speaker 1: Do you know anything about the Central Park Jograh situation.

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Speaker 1: It hadn't even gotten.

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Speaker 2: Out yet, No, no, nothing, because.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have social media back then. Like that's not

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Speaker 1: like you were checking your phone and there's an alert

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Speaker 1: that comes in from seeing.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't no phone. I didn't have no phone.

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Speaker 1: Out, So okay, so now you're just you know what's

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Speaker 1: going on now?

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Speaker 2: I don't know what's going on now.

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Speaker 3: Now there was some instance that happened in the park

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Speaker 3: that I saw, but you know, I didn't have nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with that. So so to me, it was like,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's nothing to worry about at.

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Speaker 1: Fourteen, I mean you're probably not in a great position

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Speaker 1: to attack anybody anyway, you probably do the one getting

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Speaker 1: attack for really.

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Speaker 2: I didn't at that point.

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Speaker 3: I was, you know, ninety pounds, soaking ninety pounds, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, I was a small guy.

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Speaker 1: So not nothing real scary about ninety pounds. So okay,

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Speaker 1: So they take you to the precinct in the park. Right,

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Speaker 1: So again for our audience, that precinct is in Central Park.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a Central Park precinct.

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Speaker 1: That's what it's called. So they take you to the

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Speaker 1: precinct and what happens next, And so I'm there with

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Speaker 1: because me and Stephen Lopez we got picked up at

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Speaker 1: the same time.

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Speaker 3: There's another guy, well, Kevin Richardson gets picked up too,

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Speaker 3: right because Officer Powers goes into the park, he chases

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Speaker 3: Kevin Richard down. Richardson down, He hits him in the

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Speaker 3: face with the helmet, he tackles him, he arrests him.

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Speaker 3: And so there's him, and then there's two other guys,

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Speaker 3: Lamart McCall and a kid by the name of Clarence.

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Speaker 2: So this is the five of us that get picked up.

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Speaker 2: And so we're sitting in the precinct together together.

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Speaker 3: So you know, you go through like the whole taking

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Speaker 3: to the pictures, you know, like the mugshot.

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Speaker 2: And stuff like that, and.

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Speaker 3: Then they sit us in this room and they say,

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Speaker 3: all right, make your phone call and had your parents

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Speaker 3: come pick you up. Because originally what we were given

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Speaker 3: was disappearance tickets right to appear in family court.

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Speaker 2: So so you know, the charges then were.

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Speaker 3: Like trespassing, ah, menacing, These are all like misdemeanor charges

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Speaker 3: that they gave us. And so then we just had

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Speaker 3: to sit and wait until our parents came.

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Speaker 2: To pick us up.

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Speaker 1: Right, So you called your mom, your dad. I called

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Speaker 1: my dad, right, and then you got him on the phone.

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Speaker 1: I got him on at least.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because by that time it was like maybe

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Speaker 3: like ten or eleven o'clock at night.

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Speaker 1: Right, and yeah, and again no cell phones back then.

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Speaker 1: I want to take a picture here, right, So you know,

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Speaker 1: if somebody's not home, they answer the phone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I had to call about two or three time

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Speaker 2: because he.

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Speaker 1: Was sleep Oh okay, okay, So he answered the phone.

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Speaker 1: He must be freaking out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's pissed off, you know, And so I told

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Speaker 3: him I got to you know, you gotta come down

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Speaker 3: and pick me up and uh he speaks to the

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Speaker 3: officer off so telling me he got to come pick

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Speaker 3: me up. So he says, all right, he doesn't have

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Speaker 3: a car, so they sent they supposed to be sending

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Speaker 3: the car to pick him up, to come down and

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Speaker 3: pick me up.

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Speaker 1: And so, uh so you're sitting there for hours and hours, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the time you're probably hungry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all of us is in the room a little

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Speaker 2: bit bigger than this.

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Speaker 1: Not in the cell.

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Speaker 2: Though, not in the cell is so okay.

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Speaker 1: So then so okay, so your dad comes eventually, right.

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Speaker 3: Eventually, he don't take no or the parents show up.

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Speaker 3: My dad is the last one to come. He shows

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Speaker 3: over my grandmother. They get there like maybe three four

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Speaker 3: in the morning. So he asks what's going on, So

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Speaker 3: they tell him. They explain to him that it's just

300
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Speaker 3: a disappearance ticket. We have to pay a family court.

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Speaker 3: They're going to release us. So he goes, okay, So

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Speaker 3: he has to go to work. So he tells my grandmother.

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Speaker 3: He actually my grandmother to stay. So my grandma said,

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Speaker 3: all right, you know, he says he's gonna let him go,

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Speaker 3: take him home.

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Speaker 2: I deal with him later. So he goes to work.

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Speaker 3: My grandmother stays there, and then what happens is that

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Speaker 3: they move us out of the small room into the

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Speaker 3: waiting area with our parents, and they say like they

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Speaker 3: can't let us go because the detectives want to talk

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Speaker 3: to us, but they don't say why.

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Speaker 1: Now it's three, four or five in the morning. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: then you got picked up at at ten or eleven o'clock.

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Speaker 1: So now we're talking like, yeah, it's a long night.

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Speaker 3: We're talking like five, six in the morning, maybe even seven,

316
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Speaker 3: and so, uh, you know, we don't know what's going on.

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Speaker 3: We're just sitting there waiting.

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Speaker 1: Have you heard about this central part?

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Speaker 2: Jographer? Still don't know anything.

320
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Speaker 1: But you're sure not going to ask a lot of

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Speaker 1: questions after you got hit in the head with the radio.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, that's right, that's right. That'll and especially

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Speaker 3: if you know that I'm gonna be released.

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Speaker 1: So you're not gonna make any waves.

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Speaker 2: No, you know.

326
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Speaker 3: So we're sitting in this weighting room for hours, and

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Speaker 3: detectives come, they talk to Kevin, take Kevin in the room.

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Speaker 2: And then he's in there for hours. So we don't

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Speaker 2: know what's going on.

330
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Speaker 1: Right now, it's eight o'clock in the morning.

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Speaker 2: It's No. By the time they've done with him, it's

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Speaker 2: maybe like one two o'clock and the.

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Speaker 1: Afternoon, and you're still sitting there, and we're still sitting

334
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Speaker 1: They give you anything to eat, No, we're just sitting there,

335
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:47,760
Speaker 1: no water or anything.

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Speaker 2: We're just sitting there, just sitting there, just sitting there for.

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00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 1: A long time, to just sit there.

338
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And so after Kevin is I remember them taking Kevin

340
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Speaker 3: out of the room and they don't let him come

341
00:14:59,000 --> 00:14:59,680
Speaker 3: and sit with us.

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Speaker 2: They you know, they take him.

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Speaker 3: Straight out straight at the awe the office, and he leaves,

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Speaker 3: he leaves the precinct, and so they called me in

345
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Speaker 3: next and so I'm sitting there with my grandmother.

346
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Speaker 2: So the detective he know, he uh heuh.

347
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,960
Speaker 3: He introduced himself as a detective from Bertha or Royal.

348
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Speaker 1: Right.

349
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 3: He's in the room and and he says, you know, Raymond, uh,

350
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:24,920
Speaker 3: we just want to sit down and talk to you

351
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Speaker 3: about some of the events that happened that night. And

352
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,280
Speaker 3: so I go, okay, you know, you know, what do

353
00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,840
Speaker 3: you want to know? And so we go into the

354
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 3: whole lot of question of who I was with, who

355
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Speaker 3: I came with, what did I see, where was I at?

356
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Speaker 2: Stuff? Like that, what time did I leave? How did

357
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:39,760
Speaker 2: I get picked up?

358
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,080
Speaker 3: And so, you know, he doesn't he doesn't say anything

359
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,920
Speaker 3: to me about the jagga for a while. He talks

360
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,440
Speaker 3: about just what happened that night, what did I see

361
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:51,400
Speaker 3: and who was I with?

362
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:52,400
Speaker 2: Right?

363
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,520
Speaker 3: And so I tell him that, yeah, I did see, uh,

364
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,560
Speaker 3: these guys assault you know, the homeless man, and I

365
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,400
Speaker 3: did see some of these guys throw at jaggas who

366
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 3: were running on the reservoir and and there was one

367
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,680
Speaker 3: kid who did as salt one of the jaggas. And

368
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,320
Speaker 3: and based on that assault is when I decided that

369
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 3: it was time for me to leave the park. And

370
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,480
Speaker 3: so that line of question, it goes on for hours,

371
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,080
Speaker 3: and then you know, he gets he he you know,

372
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,240
Speaker 3: he says to me, well, what happened to the jaga?

373
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Speaker 3: And I said, well, what jogga? What are you talking about?

374
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,400
Speaker 3: And he says the woman? And I say what woman?

375
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,120
Speaker 3: I never saw a woman? And he said, so you

376
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,360
Speaker 3: didn't see the woman jogging in the park And I

377
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 3: said no, and I said, the only woman I saw

378
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,280
Speaker 3: was when we first entered the park, there was a

379
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,000
Speaker 3: guy walking with his girlfriend and he walked through the

380
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 3: through the group and everybody moved out the way and

381
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:45,960
Speaker 3: let him in her pass.

382
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 2: And I said, that's the only woman I saw. There

383
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:49,200
Speaker 2: was no other woman.

384
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,440
Speaker 3: And so we went back and forth about that for

385
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,160
Speaker 3: a little bit, right, because he kept trying to, you know,

386
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,840
Speaker 3: you know, asking me the same questions. You didn't see

387
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,120
Speaker 3: a woman, jaga, woman was raped And I'm like, no,

388
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,160
Speaker 3: there was no woman raped that night. I didn't see

389
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,760
Speaker 3: anything like that. And he said, yeah, of course there was.

390
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,640
Speaker 3: And I'm like, no, there wasn't. And so from there

391
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,400
Speaker 3: that's when the line of questions starts to change. Now

392
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,320
Speaker 3: things get a little more scary.

393
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,360
Speaker 1: Still, just the one detective and you in the room. Yeah,

394
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,040
Speaker 1: and your grandmother, yeah, and my grandmother. But but your

395
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:21,439
Speaker 1: grandmother she didn't speak good English.

396
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,280
Speaker 2: She didn't speak She couldn't carry a conversation.

397
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,320
Speaker 3: She knew curse words, right, she could sit there and

398
00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,040
Speaker 3: curse you out in English words, but she couldn't carry

399
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:28,600
Speaker 3: a conversation.

400
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 1: That's kind of funny about yeah.

401
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,080
Speaker 3: It is, especially when she used to say it.

402
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,359
Speaker 1: It's interesting, right, I mean, your case was based on

403
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:40,200
Speaker 1: a false confession. People. I've been working on innocent issues

404
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,200
Speaker 1: for twenty years, and one of the things people always

405
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,119
Speaker 1: ask you about how could anybody confess through crime they

406
00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,840
Speaker 1: didn't commit. Yeah, it seems crazy. Why would somebody do that?

407
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:54,360
Speaker 1: You basically fucking yourself like totally yeah, right, And I

408
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,480
Speaker 1: understand it. But to the audience, I think a lot

409
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,400
Speaker 1: of people probably wanted the same thing. Why the hell

410
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,639
Speaker 1: would anybody do that? I mean, you have to be

411
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,920
Speaker 1: nuts to do that, right, but you're not nuts. That

412
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 1: will seem nuts at all from it. So the very

413
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,440
Speaker 1: large percentage, well, first of all, the first two hundred

414
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:13,320
Speaker 1: and fifty DNA exonerations, forty of them involved false confessions,

415
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 1: So it's a very big number. And we know that

416
00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,719
Speaker 1: of those, a very large percentage of those involve teenagers

417
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,800
Speaker 1: because we know that there's a thing called course compliant confessions, right,

418
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:28,080
Speaker 1: where you're basically being convinced that something good is going

419
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,440
Speaker 1: to happen for you if you say what the detective

420
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,639
Speaker 1: wants to hear, right, that you're going to get to

421
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,840
Speaker 1: go home, or you're going to get better treatment, or

422
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,920
Speaker 1: you're going to get something. And there's this thing called

423
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:42,440
Speaker 1: the read method, right, which was developed in Chicago by

424
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,800
Speaker 1: this guy named Reid and working with a psychologist I

425
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,119
Speaker 1: think he was a detective where they basically talk you into,

426
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,480
Speaker 1: you know, in a very sort of smooth way. They

427
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 1: get you to tell a story that they want to hear,

428
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 1: which may may have no relation to the truth, but

429
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 1: it makes their jobs easier exactly. And then there's a

430
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,640
Speaker 1: lot of gray areas outside of that too that lead

431
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 1: to false confessions, including you know, force threats, other things.

432
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,640
Speaker 1: But so in your case, because it's you know, obviously,

433
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,360
Speaker 1: that's what it came down to. It's the most powerful

434
00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,040
Speaker 1: thing to a jury too, when you hear a false

435
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,880
Speaker 1: confession and you're in a jury. And we've seen cases,

436
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,679
Speaker 1: many cases where it was DNA that proved that the

437
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,600
Speaker 1: guy couldn't have been the guy that did it in

438
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,520
Speaker 1: the first place, presented to the jury and the jury

439
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,560
Speaker 1: was like, they, I don't know, the guy said he

440
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 1: did it, so there must be some crazy other explanation

441
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,399
Speaker 1: because I'm gonna I'm not gonna look at the science.

442
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,639
Speaker 1: I'm not going to believe science. It's almost like that

443
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,560
Speaker 1: Chris rock line, right, he says, when you when you

444
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 1: if you walk in, if your girlfriend walks in on

445
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,120
Speaker 1: you with another woman and it catches you in the act,

446
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 1: you go, who are you gonna believe me or you're

447
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,520
Speaker 1: lying eyes right, So it's almost like that. But anyway,

448
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,639
Speaker 1: so back to this, So, so you're so now you're

449
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,399
Speaker 1: you're there. You've got to be getting feeling desperate by now.

450
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 1: You've got to be exhausted, confused, tired, yes, definitely, definitely,

451
00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: and over and you're overmatched.

452
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

453
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 1: They've got they've got the whole way to the New

454
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 1: York City Police Department behind him, right, and they've got detectives,

455
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: experienced detectives. And you've got your grandmother who can only

456
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 1: speak English curse words. Yeah, right, and that's basically the team,

457
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,960
Speaker 1: that team Santana, right now, that's it, right, You're a

458
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 1: fourteen year old, ninety pounds kid. Yeah, and grandma, who

459
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 1: you know, may whip out a little English turets, but

460
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 1: other than that, she's speaking Spanish and this and then

461
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,200
Speaker 1: this interrogation is not being conducted in Spanish. So okay,

462
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,200
Speaker 1: So so now it's you've been there for fourteen fifteen hours?

463
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and now how does it turn? How does

464
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,879
Speaker 1: he get you into this? How do they convince you

465
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:38,159
Speaker 1: to confess to this? Scribe?

466
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 3: All right, So what happens is that the line of

467
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,439
Speaker 3: questions starts to become a little more forceful, right, you know,

468
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,440
Speaker 3: he starts to get frustrated, He starts to get upset

469
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 3: at me. You know, he says that I'm not telling

470
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 3: him what it is that he wants to hear. He

471
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 3: says that I'm holding stuff back. You know, even when

472
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 3: my grandmother intervenes, he tells his Spanish and I'm not

473
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 3: telling him everything that he feels like I'm hiding things.

474
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 3: And so, you know, you have to look at the

475
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 3: dynamics of the situation and understand that I was a kid,

476
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 3: I was fourteen.

477
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 2: I never had no involvement with the law.

478
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 3: You know, He's a seasoned veteran detectives who do this

479
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 3: daily and so and he wants a confession, and he

480
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 3: wants a confession.

481
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:21,479
Speaker 2: You know.

482
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 1: By now, this case is on the front page of

483
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,919
Speaker 1: the newspaper. Yeah, it's the number one thing in New

484
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,400
Speaker 1: York City. And the press made you guilty. The whole

485
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,400
Speaker 1: New York City was convinced that these were the guys.

486
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 1: You saw their pictures everywhere. Of course, they took the

487
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,640
Speaker 1: scariest pictures they could find of you, guys, right, make

488
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 1: you look like criminals, and plastered those everywhere, and so yeah,

489
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 1: you were, you were public enemy number one at this point.

490
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 3: At this point, yeah, and so he knew that even

491
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 3: there was a pressure with them to get this confession.

492
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 3: And so so for me, what happened was that there's

493
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 3: a knock at the door. Right, So there comes a

494
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 3: knock at the door, and this detective comes in who

495
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 3: speaks Spanish, and he talks to my grandma mother and

496
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,479
Speaker 3: he says, listen, can you step outside? Another guy and uh,

497
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 3: he asks my grandmother can she? Can she step outside?

498
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 3: And he's talking to her span he takes out in

499
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 3: the hallway and he closes the door, and at that

500
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 3: point the line of question becomes a little more harsher, right,

501
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 3: it becomes stop lying to me, You're gonna give me

502
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 3: what I want. And in that same instance, as she

503
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 3: goes out, another detective comes in, and so the third

504
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 3: one third third guy, right, real tall detective, slim guy.

505
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 3: And he comes in and he's making small talk with

506
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 3: a royal and I'm just sitting in a chair.

507
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 2: I don't know what's going to happen.

508
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 3: And then he gives me this look and he says,

509
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 3: what the fuck are you looking at?

510
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 2: Right? And you know, there's an apartment that wants to say

511
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,199
Speaker 2: who me? But I don't say shit. I just stay quiet.

512
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 3: And then and and then he makes like this step

513
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 3: towards me, right, and I go, oh shit, this guy's

514
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 3: about to kick my ass. Right, But at that moment,

515
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 3: there's the knock. Right the door opens, my grandmother walks in,

516
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 3: this detective walks out, and so my grandmother sits down,

517
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 3: and I'm like, woof, you know, I just got saved, right,

518
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 3: And so you know, a royal starts from the top. Okay,

519
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 3: who were you with? What did you do? What did

520
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 3: you see? What's going on? And I give him the

521
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 3: same story, you know, during this line of question. It

522
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 3: goes on for a couple of hours. Then it comes

523
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 3: another knock at the door. So now the same knock comes,

524
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 3: the same detective comes in talking Spanish, speaking Spanish to

525
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 3: my grandmother.

526
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,959
Speaker 2: So he says, is this is scumback? Who did it?

527
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 3: And Arroyo says yeah, But he's not giving us what

528
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 3: we want to hear.

529
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 2: And so.

530
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 3: He pulls his chair really close up and he sits

531
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 3: down and he starts to talk in my ear, and

532
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,719
Speaker 3: he's talking real forcefully, and he's not really loud, but

533
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 3: you know, I could just I could feel the pressure

534
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 3: on my ear from him talking. And he says, you

535
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 3: know you fucking did it, You know you did it.

536
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 3: You're going to jail, and that's he starts to talk.

537
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,959
Speaker 3: Then a royal starts to yell at me. So I

538
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 3: got them coming from two different angles, right, and I

539
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 3: could just sit in the chair and freeze because I

540
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 3: don't know what to do, right, and so there is

541
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 3: nothing to do, and so he's yelling in my ear

542
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 3: and he says, you're going to jail, You're going to prison,

543
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 3: you fucking did it. And then Royo is yelling at me,

544
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 3: and that not comes right, and detective lets my grandmother

545
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 3: back in, and at that point I start to cry

546
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 3: a little bit, right, So now right, this guy gets up,

547
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 3: he walks right out. So my grandmother comes in. She

548
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,439
Speaker 3: sits down, and now she looks at me, and she

549
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 3: can see like something is wrong, right, and she sees

550
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 3: the tears, but she don't know because she doesn't see

551
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 3: anything else happening. She just sees me, right, and then

552
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 3: she goes, well, what's going on? And the royal says, no,

553
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 3: you know, like I told you before, you know, we

554
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 3: just feel like he's not telling us everything.

555
00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 2: He's holding something.

556
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 3: And then he says, well, let's start from the top

557
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 3: once again, Raymond, tell me who were you with and

558
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 3: what did you see? And were going through the whole story.

559
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 3: And by this time I'm kind of beat down. I

560
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 3: haven't slept, I haven't ate nothing, and so I'm just

561
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 3: sitting there and I'm talking to him, and then comes

562
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 3: the knock one more time. Right, the same detective comes in.

563
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 3: He says, MS, Cologne, can you come out? And she

564
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 3: gets up right, She gets up and she walks out

565
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: and the door closes. He starts talking to me, and

566
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 3: then he gets frustrated. Right, Detective Royal gets frustrated. He

567
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 3: starts cursing at me. You're gonna fucking tell me what

568
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 3: I want. I'm tired of this shit, and he bangs

569
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: on the table, you know, really hard.

570
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: And at this point he lunges at me, right, and

571
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: I go, shit, this is it. I'm gonna die, right,

572
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 2: And it's precinct.

573
00:25:54,720 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 3: And so when he lunges at me, somebody stops him, right,

574
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 3: So the whole time there was a detective behind who

575
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 3: I didn't see. He stops him, right. He says, what

576
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 3: the fuck are you doing? Starts cursing, Oh, what the

577
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 3: fuck is going on? You gotta give him a classic technique,

578
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 3: good cop.

579
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: Bad fourteen years old. I don't know that everybody watches listening. Now,

580
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: you don't know all You're scared. Ship is out of

581
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 1: your mind.

582
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: See side, Lord Nord, I don't know this stuff. And

583
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: he kicks you. Get out the room, Get out the room.

584
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 2: Get the fuck. Royal gets up, leaves out.

585
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 3: The guy closes the door, right, And at that moment,

586
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 3: I'm like, who, whoever this guy is? He just saved

587
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,479
Speaker 3: my life, right, he's your friend, he's my friend, and

588
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 3: you know, and her hope I have Now I have

589
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 3: a little hope.

590
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: He says, hey, you know, Raymond, you don't know me.

591
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 3: I'm detective hard again, right, and and I hear what's

592
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 3: going on, and you know it's a serious case, serious crime.

593
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 3: And he goes into like he pictures it so well

594
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: where he's like, you know, you're a good kid.

595
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:01,719
Speaker 2: You know, I know you ain't do this.

596
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 3: But these kids stay at these other precints and they're saying,

597
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 3: you did it.

598
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 2: And I don't want you to go to jail. You know,

599
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 2: you got to help me. Here. I'm trying to help you.

600
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 3: You want to go home, right, he just saved you,

601
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: maybe just save your life and tell you a terrific guy.

602
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: He's that's the proof. He just saved me from getting

603
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 2: killed in the priests. So I'm like, yeah, he has

604
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 2: my best interest at heart. Yep, you know.

605
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: And he says, you know, I need you to help me.

606
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 1: You got to give me this point. You're like, I

607
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: want to help this guy. Yeah, this guy's gonna get

608
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: me out of it.

609
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 2: You know.

610
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: So what does he needs you to do?

611
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 3: So so he pulled out this picture of Kevin Richison

612
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: and he says, do you know this guy? And I

613
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 3: said no, And he said, well, this is Kevin and

614
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 3: you see the scratch on his face And I said yeah,

615
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 3: because he had a munk shot. You can see it,

616
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 3: you know, you can see it. And he says, well

617
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 3: that that scratch came from the job when she was

618
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 3: fighting them off. Now I know, we know he's going

619
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 3: to jail, right, you can't do nothing about that. But

620
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 3: I don't want you to go to jail. So you

621
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 3: got to give me something. You got to help me here, right,

622
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 3: I'm trying to help you. You got to help me, you

623
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 3: want to go home, right, you got to help me.

624
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: And then he just left the picture that he sat

625
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 3: back and he just waited, he just he just got quiet,

626
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 3: you know. And as a fourteen year old kid, I'm

627
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 3: sitting there saying, I don't even know this guy, right,

628
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 3: but I'm trying to get this pressure to stop, because

629
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 3: if this guy leaves the room, then I got to

630
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 3: deal with these detectives coming back in here again, and

631
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 3: this is all going to start all over again.

632
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 2: It's never gonna end.

633
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 3: And so you know, for me, you know, I'm a

634
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 3: fourteen year old kid, right, what do we do at fourteen?

635
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 3: We know how to lie to our parents, all right,

636
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 3: And so that's what.

637
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: King to mind. My king of mind was lie, you know.

638
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 3: And so I said, well he did it, and so

639
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 3: I said, well he did it and he said he

640
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 3: did what? And I said, well he raped a woman?

641
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 3: And he said, all right, what else did he do?

642
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 3: What did you see him do?

643
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: Here's a clip of Raymond's confession which was used at

644
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: trial times. He was.

645
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: Kept smacking.

646
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 3: And so I actually sat there and fabricated the story

647
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 3: just involving Kevin Richardson, right, because in my mind, that's

648
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 3: the only picture you gave me, so he's the rapist.

649
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: Well, and you're going home.

650
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 2: And I'm going home and I'm lying.

651
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 3: But so what you figured ou out later on, So

652
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 3: what happened was that he said, okay, so what did

653
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 3: you see him do? So I said, I saw Kevin

654
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 3: struggling with this woman and he took it down and

655
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 3: he said, did you see him rape? And I said yeah.

656
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 3: And then he said, well, what about Antroon mccraig. And

657
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: I go, well, I don't know who Antroon McCrae is.

658
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 3: And he said, well, ray, you know he was there

659
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 3: and I said he was. He said yeah, he said,

660
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 3: you know, we know he was there and I said, okay,

661
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 3: well you know antrom was holding her arm.

662
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: You know.

663
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: Now, by the way, what's crazy about all of this,

664
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: on top of all the other stuff that's crazy about

665
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: all of this, which is everything, is that so we

666
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: of course find out later that the woman was that

667
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: was raped by one guy and one guy only, and

668
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: that they knew this. So here they are right. If

669
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: they got the right guy among the five of you,

670
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: they still got four guys that they know that they

671
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: could not possibly have had anything to do with this.

672
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: That's correct.

673
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: But they have no problem with that.

674
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: But they have no problem with that.

675
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: They sleep at night, they go home their families, everything's fine.

676
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: I never understand that. You don't understand that. So now

677
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: they got the two guys, they got you identifying the

678
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: two guys in.

679
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: There, and then the third with is Stephen Lopez. So

680
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 3: they say, well what about Steven. I go, wow, No,

681
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 3: I don't know Stephen. He said, well, he was there,

682
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 3: you know, he got to put him in there. He

683
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 3: was there.

684
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: And so at this point, you're already deep into this

685
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,479
Speaker 1: tale of lying through your teeth anyway, You're like, and

686
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: you're more and more tired and hungry and everything else.

687
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well Steven Lopez. You know, I didn't know Steven.

688
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 3: Stephen was sitting out in the waiting area and I

689
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: didn't know who he was. And he said, well, we

690
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: know Steven did it. And he said, you know this woman,

691
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 3: you know, she lost a lot of blood and we

692
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 3: don't know she's going to be and we knew that

693
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 3: she had all these injuries on it, and it had

694
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 3: to come from somewhere. So he said it had to

695
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 3: come from either rock, a brick, or a pipe, right,

696
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 3: And so this is what he told me. So he

697
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 3: actually gave me options to choose which one and then

698
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 3: I said a brick And he said, well, who used

699
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 3: the brick? And I said Steven Lopez, And so that

700
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 3: became the brick that was introduced later on in the.

701
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: Case, which we know there never even was a brick.

702
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: Then, yeah, exactly, the prosecutor brought in the brick that

703
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: she said was used to bash the woman's head in

704
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: the job is headed into the trial, right, Yeah, that's

705
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: that's correct.

706
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 3: What happened is that she, uh, you know, because of

707
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 3: my statement said it was a brick that was used,

708
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 3: she brought the brick in during the trial and she

709
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 3: presented the brick and she says that this is the

710
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 3: brick that was used in the assault on the jograph.

711
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: She held she held the brick up and powerful for jury.

712
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: Right.

713
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 3: No, definitely, and the and the brick also the next

714
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 3: day it was on the front of the New York

715
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 3: news day. You know, a brick, A brick had his

716
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 3: own front page each cover on the news and said

717
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 3: this was the brick that was used in the Jagga case.

718
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: And so when they did the reinvestigation years later and

719
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 3: they test the brick.

720
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: There was no blood on it. There was nothing on

721
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: the brick.

722
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: So they just found a brick somewhere and just who

723
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: knows where they.

724
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 2: Got it from.

725
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 3: That could have been on the way from the prosecutor's

726
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 3: office come to the courthouse.

727
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: And he picked it up and said, this is it

728
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:19,239
Speaker 2: right here.

729
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, she probably had it on her desk like a

730
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: paperweight for a while. She's so proud of it, right,

731
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: So ridiculous. It's so fucking ridiculous, the fact that she

732
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: would hold up a brick when there was no brick.

733
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: I mean, we're in imagination land now, like deep into

734
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: like I mean, that's kind of psychotic. But yeah, I

735
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: just I mean, at that point, yeah, you're you're screwed.

736
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: The jury scenes that and they're like, that's the that's

737
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: the brick.

738
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: That's the brick.

739
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: That poor woman, these scary kids, a poor woman with

740
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: a brick. Oh my god.

741
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, this fight was fixed from the beginning.

742
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: This fight was fixed. Talk about a brick ship house.

743
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: That's not a great analogy, but you know what I'm saying.

744
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so afterwards, you know, he wrote everything down

745
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 3: and then he said, you know, all right, you did great.

746
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 3: Sign it and then I signed it, and then he said,

747
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 3: well I need two I needed two more things for

748
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 3: me and then and then you're good to go. And

749
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 3: I said, well what and he said, I usually give

750
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: it the same statement that you have here in front

751
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 3: of you, give this to another detective and then do

752
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 3: the video tape.

753
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: And I said, all right.

754
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 3: It was fine because in my mind, you know, this

755
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 3: was the guy who saved me, right, and so he

756
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 3: was making sure that I was going to go home.

757
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: Right. This is going to be evidence of you not

758
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: doing it right. Yeah, in your in your twisted mind

759
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: at this point, which has been jumbled up in twenty

760
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: different ways, you're thinking, oh great, this is going to

761
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: be more evidence that will prove that I didn't do it.

762
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: So how did they even now? It seems like if

763
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: I'm listening to the podcast, I'm saying, well, okay, but

764
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 1: you didn't really say anything that you did it. So

765
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: where's the confession coming? Right? And so and this was

766
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: really one. When I heard you speak last time, I

767
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: was really it really hit me hard. I've been thinking

768
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,239
Speaker 1: about it a lot. So how did they get you

769
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: to place yourself? I mean, you saw it, right, but

770
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: that's not a crime. Witnessing a crime.

771
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: It's not a crime.

772
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: You didn't go to prison for witnessing a crime. Now, okay, okay,

773
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: So so how's it now? It goes now, it goes

774
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: downhill fast?

775
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, what happens is that?

776
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: And even the way he did it, you know, he said, listen,

777
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 3: He said, okay, So, so you saw Kevin rape the woman.

778
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 3: You saw Steve Lopez hit her with the brick, and

779
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 3: you saw Arou McCray was holding her right, And he said,

780
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 3: so where were you? And I said, well, I saw

781
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 3: it from a distance. I was witnessing it. And he

782
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 3: said that's not good enough and I said, what do

783
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 3: you mean is not? He said, you know, you can't

784
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 3: sit there and witness it from a distance because it's questionable. Right,

785
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 3: it's nighttime. How did you see Kevin, you know, having

786
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 3: sex with this woman? He said, you have to place

787
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 3: yourself at the scene. You have to be right there

788
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: watching it, right, And I said okay, And he said

789
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 3: that's the only way it's going to be believable.

790
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: Did he offer you anything to eat or drink it?

791
00:34:59,239 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: This time?

792
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: And even the nice guy didn't.

793
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 2: Even nice guy didn't do that.

794
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 3: Nice guy came in and said, this is it right here,

795
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 3: and and and so, but.

796
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: You can see now, you can see daylight. You're like,

797
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to.

798
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: Get out of here.

799
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: I'm almost done.

800
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: I'm almost done. I'm almost done, you know.

801
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 3: Like like Kevin said in the film, he said, at

802
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 3: this point, you just have to sell it. And so

803
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 3: he says, you have to place yourself right there. You

804
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 3: have to see everything in order to say that you

805
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 3: saw it.

806
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 2: You know, where were you?

807
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 3: And I said, well, I was there and he said, okay,

808
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 3: where And I said I was on the side and

809
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 3: he said, what did you do? And then I said,

810
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 3: well I reached over and I grabbed the Jagger's breast

811
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: and he said that's all you did, right And I

812
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 3: said that's all I did.

813
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 2: And he said, okay, all right, and so.

814
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: And what what possessed you to say that? Because that

815
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: you kind of pulled that one out of the I

816
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: did what you told twenty lies already I did.

817
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 3: I did and and and it came from me, uh

818
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 3: wanted to be believed that I was at the scene,

819
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 3: and then me saying well, this was a lesser role, right,

820
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 3: like yeah, because I couldn't say that I held her

821
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 3: because I said Antron, did it.

822
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: Have you even grabbed a woman's breast by this point

823
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 1: in your life, maybe.

824
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: Maybe not a woman, a girl. So yeah, so you

825
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: made this up, right, just to add.

826
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 3: A little yeah, because I couldn't couldn't ability. I said,

827
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 3: Kevin raped that, and I already said Steve hit it

828
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 3: with the brick, and I race said, Atron held her.

829
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: And you you know, I think a lot of people

830
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: don't realize that once you say that, you're just as

831
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: guilty as everybody else. Now it's you know, it's a

832
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: exactly part of the group. Even though you didn't play,

833
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: You didn't implicate yourself in in hitting her or raping

834
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: her or strangling her or doing anything like that. But

835
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: now you're guilty as everybody now, guilty everybody they got

836
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: you know, now they got me. So now what happens?

837
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 3: And so then he said, okay, you did good. You know,

838
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 3: you know, he tells me he wants me to go

839
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 3: to another pre stint. He wants me to tell the

840
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 3: same story to this other detective. And and then that's

841
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 3: what I do. So they picked me up. They take

842
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 3: me to another precinct where I sit in the in serogation.

843
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: Room with the TV cameras now waiting for you and

844
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: things like that.

845
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, well we come out when we go to the presst,

846
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 3: this camera's there.

847
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 2: He says.

848
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 3: Look, just walk right in. Don't look at the cameras,

849
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 3: just keep walking right in. But I still don't know

850
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 3: what's going on.

851
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I'm trying to paint a picture for the ey.

852
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 1: He's like, if you didn't live in New York back then,

853
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: you can't imagine. This was really one of the most

854
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: notorious crimes in New York history. That means, yeah, and

855
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: that's a lot of history there, but it was I mean,

856
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: it crystallized, like I said, everybody's fears of these predators

857
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 1: roaming in the park, these scary minority kids who were

858
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: like super predators.

859
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 2: They that's where the term came from, super predators, right.

860
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 3: They are often the kinds of kids that are called

861
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 3: super predators. No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about

862
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 3: why they ended up that way, but first we have

863
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 3: to bring them to heal.

864
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 4: There is anger over this incident that seems to have

865
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 4: only grown in the days since the assault occurred.

866
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: For a city that has been simmering for years over

867
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 2: the issue of race, This vicious.

868
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: Crime with young black defendants and a white female victim.

869
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: Brings the issue to the boiling point.

870
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 4: And these kids should be made examples for the rest

871
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 4: of the country that if you do a crime, you're

872
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 4: gonna get convicted. If you're guilty, you're either going to

873
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 4: jail or you're gonna hang.

874
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: So this point, every cameras out everybody, but you still

875
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: don't know.

876
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 2: You still don't know.

877
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: You don't know, so you're like, okay, so you go

878
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: through the cameras.

879
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 3: So we go to another Priesson and I meet Detective

880
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 3: Mike Shean. Right, Mike Shean was part of Homicide North

881
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 3: detective squad, went on years of being movies and be

882
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 3: a reporter for several different news stations. And so are

883
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:49,919
Speaker 3: going to meet him and we go in the room

884
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 3: and he says, look, you know you spoke the heart

885
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 3: again already and I said yeah. He says, so you

886
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 3: know what we're gonna do here, right, And I said yeah.

887
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 3: He said, all right, Well just tell me the same

888
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 3: thing you told hard again and I write it down

889
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 3: and tig and win so, you know, but because I'm

890
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 3: selling it, that first statement with Hardigain maybe two and

891
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:13,959
Speaker 3: a half pages, right, this statement turns into like five, right.

892
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: Because now you're embellishing the story.

893
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, because now he's pulling details and stuff and he's

894
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 3: asking me stuff and I'm just making stuff up as

895
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 3: we go along.

896
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: Well, at this point it's easy work for him. Yeah,

897
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: he could have said he could have said that you

898
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: that you could have kidnapped the Lindbergh baby.

899
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 3: And I could have been like, yeah, that was really yeah,

900
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 3: yeah that happened the same night.

901
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah I did that, the Manton murders. Yeah I

902
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: was out there in California. Yeah yeah yeah, health skeleter

903
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. That was you. He would have

904
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: been like, yeah, can I go home now?

905
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: Yeah?

906
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: Right?

907
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: And can I get a sandwich at least? So give

908
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: me a sandwich while I'm telling you this story.

909
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: Right, So you would have confessed anything.

910
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 2: I would have confessed anything.

911
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: And so at this point he's got you, now you

912
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: So let's just fast forward a little bit. Okay, So

913
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 1: now you're all of this is done, yeah right, and

914
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: you're taking away to jail yeah too, spot for the

915
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: detention center, right and so, and you have a sense

916
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: it's dangerous, definitely, and you're okay, so now how long

917
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: did it take to.

918
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: Get to trial. It took us about a year, almost

919
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 2: almost about a year and a half.

920
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: So you're in jail for a year and a half

921
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: way in for trial. Yeah, and were the other kids

922
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: in the same jail with you.

923
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 3: At this point everybody started to get bailed out, so

924
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 3: it was all of us that came in together and

925
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 3: we got split up. And then what happened was abody,

926
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 3: So Kevin got built out, YUSUF got built out, Steven

927
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 3: Lopez got built out, and Troum McCrae got built out,

928
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: and then I was the last one, and then Corey

929
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 3: was on regulars.

930
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: Island, so he got bailed out. I didn't get bailed out.

931
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 2: I mean the bail must have been high, No, it was.

932
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 3: It started about two or fifty thousand, and then as

933
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 3: the months went on it got lowered to one fifty,

934
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 3: then one hundred and fifty thousand, and then it finally

935
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 3: went down to twenty five thousand. And this was the

936
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 3: time when Al Sharpton was raising money to get everybody out, okay,

937
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 3: but I don't know what happened when it came to

938
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 3: me getting out.

939
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 2: The money wasn't raised, okay, So that's weird too. But

940
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 2: mm hmm.

941
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 1: So so then you go to trial.

942
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 2: So they're going to trial, do you think did you think.

943
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: You were going to be uh convicted?

944
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 3: No, because at this point the DNA evidence is there.

945
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 3: Nothing matches, right. You know, they took handprints, footprints, they

946
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 3: took hair samples, they took blood samples.

947
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 2: It took all of our clothes.

948
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 3: And they sent it to the lab and nothing matches, right,

949
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 3: So so you know, there's the hope. All right, there's

950
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,720
Speaker 3: no physical evidence to prove that we did anything.

951
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 2: And so who's your lawyer?

952
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 3: I had a lawyer by the name of Peter Rovera

953
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: from the Bronx. He was originally handling my father's divorce

954
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 3: paperwork and then he became a lawyer.

955
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 1: Right, so you got a divorce lawyer.

956
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 2: I got a divorce lawyer, and fight for your life,

957
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: to fight for my life. And you know, let's just.

958
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: Think about that for a second. Divorce lawyers aren't even

959
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: good at divorces exactly, know what I mean. I mean,

960
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: I don't know how many of you out there have

961
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: been through that, but I have. I don't want to

962
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 1: denigate that. By the way, A lot of good divorce

963
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: lawyers out there too, so I don't mean to, you know,

964
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: but the fact is that's that's crazy.

965
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 2: Okay.

966
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: So, but he was confident, you felt.

967
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 3: You know, you know, when I looked back at it,

968
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 3: there was a lot of things that I felt that

969
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: he could have did that he didn't do.

970
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: He didn't fight enough, you know.

971
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 3: And when you tried together, I believe we were No

972
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 3: it was me Achoon, McCrae and used to Salam tried together.

973
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 3: And it's a media circus. Yeah, oh, definitely. By this

974
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: time the articles are being written. Within the first two weeks,

975
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 3: there were four hundred articles written about us, dissecting our lines.

976
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: And again you got Trump saying you guys should be executed.

977
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: He went out of his way. Then the ad came

978
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 1: out of it, took out an ad.

979
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, he put eighty five thousand dollars on the ad,

980
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: and the major four made the newspapers calling for the

981
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 3: death penalty.

982
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: You better believe that. I hate the people that took

983
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: this girl and raped her brutally. You better believe it

984
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: because he's a he's an expert on this stuff.

985
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, okay, so he.

986
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: Would have executed all five of you guys anyway. I

987
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 1: don't think he would have lost any sleep over No.

988
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: I believe you know.

989
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 3: I mean even years later when we got exonerated and

990
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: we went through the lawsuit, he said, you know, it

991
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 3: was the biggest heights in New York City history, right,

992
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 3: you know you know?

993
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: So okay. So so you're now you're going through this

994
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: trial on the circus the whole thing. You've been in

995
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: jail for at this point a year and a half, yeah,

996
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: which is as a fifteen and a half year old kid, Yeah,

997
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: a pretty big percentage of your life. So now you're

998
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: there and you're still expecting the justice is going to

999
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: be done. That's right, because you didn't do anything.

1000
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,720
Speaker 2: That's right. And you got DNA and I got DNA

1001
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: now so.

1002
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: You got all this forensic evidence. Yeah, and you're ready

1003
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: to go home. Now it's going to be fixed. And

1004
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: then the verdict comes in.

1005
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 3: Then the vertic comes in. And the first trial, the

1006
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 3: first charge was a hip murder and they said not guilty,

1007
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 3: said okay, and then from there the rest of the

1008
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 3: charges was all guilty.

1009
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the experience and and and you know,

1010
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: the tension and just thinking about you in that courtroom

1011
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: and waiting for that verdict. And the stomach and the

1012
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: pain and the everything. I can't even That's why I

1013
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 1: do this work that I do, because I can't imagine

1014
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: what it's like to go through this. Nobody can if

1015
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: you haven't been through it. I'm amazed you're here smiling, laughing.

1016
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: You know, got your Park Madison shirt. Yeah, yeah, fashion

1017
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: line Park Madison, NYC. I want to put it a

1018
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: plug for that. So now you're now you're off the prison,

1019
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: and then the crazy thing happens. Right You're you're in

1020
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: prison for seven years, you serve ye, you're a juvenile.

1021
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: Was the most they could give you, and then you

1022
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: get out. Then I get out. Now you're out, and

1023
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: you're thinking, Okay, now I can start my life. Got it.

1024
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 1: Associate's degree while you're in prison, that's correct. Right, So

1025
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: you're like you do, bettering yourself, doing the best you

1026
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,439
Speaker 1: could while you're in there, that's correct. And then which

1027
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: prison were you in?

1028
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 3: They shipped me to go Secure Sensor and I served

1029
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 3: five years there and then they shipped me the downstair

1030
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 3: correction and then I got released from there.

1031
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: I mean, you say so casually the five years there

1032
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: like five years? Imagine five years at the holiday inn

1033
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: would be torture, right, I mean, and this is not

1034
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: the holiday in this is we're talking violence, terrible food, loneliness,

1035
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: all the stuff, noise, all the stuff that goes with it.

1036
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: So you get out and now you find out that

1037
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:42,720
Speaker 1: your prospects for getting employment are basically zero.

1038
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 3: Like I filled out separate applications, nobody will hire me.

1039
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: You know.

1040
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 3: There's that question that says, how you have been convicted

1041
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 3: of a crime, and you go yes and don't even

1042
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 3: get a called back, and then somebody said, well, just

1043
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 3: put we'll discuss upon interview. And then I said, all right,

1044
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 3: let's try that, and so you will discuss the point interview.

1045
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 3: And then they call you in and say, well you

1046
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 3: went to jail and yeah for what?

1047
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: Right?

1048
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: Oh, now you know and you're a register registered sex offender.

1049
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 3: And then if somebody does say, okay, well you know what,

1050
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 3: you went to jail for rape, things happen, Well what happened?

1051
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 2: And then you go to Centrapauk jagged.

1052
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: Cakes and they're like, okay, okay, well we're just closing

1053
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: up for the day. We'll get back here as soon

1054
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: as we can.

1055
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, because now you're a level three or level one

1056
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 3: like you're like the highest level of a sex offender

1057
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 3: there is.

1058
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: And so that's so there's nobody's hiring.

1059
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: Nobody's hiring nobody.

1060
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: So you still got to feed yourself somehow.

1061
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1062
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 3: So what happens is that at this point I just

1063
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 3: for me because now it started to take a toll

1064
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 3: on me, right that I was in society. I had

1065
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 3: nine o'clock curfew, seven o'clock curfew. I couldn't get a job.

1066
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 3: You know, these characteristics that are bring with me from

1067
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 3: prison were starting the surface now, the pent up aggression,

1068
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 3: not wanting to be around a lot of people in

1069
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 3: the room, not want to be around kids, not want

1070
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 3: to be around a woman by myself, right because people

1071
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 3: start to look at that walking on the eighth shows

1072
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: on a daily.

1073
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: Basis, all for your cop you gotta be yeah yeah, yeah.

1074
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 1: So so you got a lot of PTSD type syndrome

1075
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: symptoms and then and then so you got mixed up

1076
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: in drugs a little bit.

1077
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, So for me, what happened was that, you know,

1078
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 3: you know, these guys on the corner, they get a

1079
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 3: lot of money.

1080
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: I can see it every day.

1081
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 3: They're sitting there and they're doing what they don't have

1082
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 3: to do it, and and and in my mind they

1083
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 3: was like, well, you know what, I don't have to

1084
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 3: fill out an application for that, right, Oh you have

1085
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 3: to go to a job interview.

1086
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 2: I could just come out there doing it.

1087
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 1: Now. By the way, you have to understand, I believe

1088
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: that drugs should be legal, and it should be decriminalizing, taxed,

1089
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 1: and regulated. I've been working in that field for twenty

1090
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 1: four years, even longer than this, so you're gonna find

1091
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: me very sympathetic on this particular subject, you know. But

1092
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: that being said, so you got arrested.

1093
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, So I got arrested with UH and

1094
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 3: I was charged with criminal possession with the intent to distribute.

1095
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 3: And so you know, for me, you know, I had

1096
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 3: a high bail, right, I had a parole hold, and

1097
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 3: I knew I was guilty of this case. So it

1098
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 3: wasn't you know, it wasn't about sitting there fighting the system.

1099
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 3: It was just about give me something that I can

1100
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 3: handle because I knew I was guilty.

1101
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: And now you're an adult, and now you've been through

1102
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 1: the system, and there's nothing they can sure you that

1103
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: you haven't already seen. That's correct, right, not as scary.

1104
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 3: Not as scary, right, And so you know, they gave

1105
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 3: me a three and a half to seven year sentence

1106
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 3: and I said, all right, I'll gladly take that because

1107
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 3: I was guilty.

1108
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: And this is where it gets really interesting. So you're

1109
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: back in prison, this time for something you did do

1110
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: and a crazy thing happens.

1111
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, crazy guy named Athias Rays, guy named Tayus Rayes

1112
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 3: who's serving the thirty three and a third to life

1113
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 3: year sentenced for murder and several rapes. It's sitting in

1114
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 3: prison with Cory Wires. You know, Corey Wi, one of

1115
00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 3: my cou defends who was at this point, he's in

1116
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 3: his thirteen and a half year right, never been released,

1117
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 3: you know, never, no programs, no nothing, he's just been

1118
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 3: in prison. And he sees Corey in the yard walking around,

1119
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 3: and he approaches Corey, right, And he doesn't tell Corey

1120
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 3: that he's the person who committed the crime. But what

1121
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 3: he does is he engages in the conversation with Corey

1122
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 3: because back in nineteen nine they was on the same

1123
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 3: housing unit, right, and they had a fight over the TV.

1124
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 2: And so he comes to Corey and he says, hey,

1125
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 2: you remember me.

1126
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 3: Corey says, you know the looks out of him, says

1127
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 3: we had a fight in eighty nine over the TV,

1128
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 3: and Corey says, yeah, I remember you. And from there

1129
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 3: he starts to tell Corey how his faith in religion

1130
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 3: has changed and how he's trying to be better and

1131
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 3: do better things in life, and they engage in a dialogue,

1132
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 3: and based on that dialogue, he never told Corey he

1133
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 3: was the person who committed the jogger case.

1134
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: He didn't do that.

1135
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 3: He just spoke to Corey and the conversation made him

1136
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 3: feel a certain type of way that he felt he

1137
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:57,240
Speaker 3: had to do something.

1138
00:49:57,960 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 2: And so that's where it started.

1139
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 3: Where he actually went and he talked to the prison

1140
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 3: chaplain and this was the first person that he told that,

1141
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 3: you know, somebody's in this prison for a crime that

1142
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 3: I know I did, and they've been here all this

1143
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 3: time and they're innocent.

1144
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 2: And then that's how the ball starts to roll.

1145
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: This is the first time you've heard me shut up,

1146
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: because I'm just sitting here trying to like process this right.

1147
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: And this guy, like, he didn't just tell the story once.

1148
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 3: He told it over and over and over, even until

1149
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 3: it got to Albany and they had to send an investigator.

1150
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 3: DA's office had to send somebody to go talk to

1151
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 3: him and he told them the story.

1152
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:39,399
Speaker 2: And so when he was the sole perpetrator, and he was.

1153
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,240
Speaker 3: The sole perpetrator, he was known as the East Side slasher.

1154
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 3: All his crimes he committed by himself. All his victims

1155
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 3: had the same kind of injuries.

1156
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,240
Speaker 1: And he had been under investigation prior to the Central

1157
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 1: Park geography.

1158
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 3: That's correct, he committed a rape in Central Park. Two

1159
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 3: days before the rape went the Jagga.

1160
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: And they had some information that they were looking at

1161
00:50:58,239 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: him as a aspect.

1162
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 3: He had a scar on his chin. The lady who

1163
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 3: he raped in Essential Park two is before I did

1164
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 3: him as having a scar on the chin. So one

1165
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,399
Speaker 3: of the detectives who was looking for him, they went

1166
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 3: to the hospital and they find out who was the

1167
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 3: last person that has stitches and they foundmentaies rares And

1168
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 3: so this information came to uh Linda Festin, who was

1169
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 3: ahead of This information came to Lynda Feresti, who was

1170
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 3: the head of the sex crimes unit. Around the same

1171
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,320
Speaker 3: time that the DNA evidence from our.

1172
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 2: Case came back.

1173
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 3: It was about six weeks and it came around the

1174
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 3: same time that it came back that said that, uh,

1175
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 3: there was no match, and so she had she had

1176
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 3: the information on her desk, but she chose not to

1177
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 3: either talk to us again. She chose not to entertain

1178
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 3: an alternative theory or on an alternative suspect.

1179
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 2: She just chose to go forward with this case.

1180
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's what can't you even say about that? I mean,

1181
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 1: it's like, I'm so angry about it, and I wasn't

1182
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: the one who got victimized here, and there's a lot

1183
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,720
Speaker 1: of victims here, right, the woman who didn't get justice,

1184
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: it's correct, the society who wasn't protected from this guy

1185
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: who truly is evil, yes, and then the five of

1186
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 1: you guys, and then your whole families. Yeah right. I

1187
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: mean that's the thing, Like, I think people need to

1188
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: understand that when we lock up the wrong guy, by definition,

1189
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: we stopped looking for the right guy.

1190
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 2: That's correct.

1191
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: That guy is then free to go out and commit

1192
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 1: more terrible acts against innocent people.

1193
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 2: Wanted to commit a murder and I think four additional rapes.

1194
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,800
Speaker 1: Right, So a murder and four rapes, that's the scorecard

1195
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: of If Ferristein would have done her job, which was

1196
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: right in front of her. It wasn't tricky, wasn't right,

1197
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: It wasn't like this one came with instructions right, And

1198
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: all she had to do was look at it and say, yes,

1199
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to do my job, my sacred duty to

1200
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 1: protect the public and the citizens of which you are one,

1201
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 1: and I'm going to investigate the obvious lead that is

1202
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 1: going to lead me to the right rapist in this

1203
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 1: case and almost kill her. And she didn't do it

1204
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: because it was inconvenient in some way, and she probably

1205
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: liked all the press she was getting, I'm guessing, and

1206
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 1: as a result, it's really I can't imagine how those

1207
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: people must feel that were victims of Rais, knowing that

1208
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: he could have been and should have been off the

1209
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 1: street and they and their families never would have had that.

1210
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: I can't imagine if it was my daughter, or my sister,

1211
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: or my mother or somebody else who he victimized. I

1212
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 1: don't know. I can't. The amount of anger is really

1213
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 1: it's hard to even put it into words.

1214
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a there's a report.

1215
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 3: There's a report that's that's done by the DA's office,

1216
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 3: called it Nancy Ryan Report. It's about fifty two pages

1217
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 3: long and it tells you why we're innocent, or the

1218
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,760
Speaker 3: evidence in the reinvestigation as to how we're innocent. Reyes

1219
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 3: went on to even solve unsolved crimes.

1220
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: Because they yeah, because they never bought it. Look into

1221
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: other way. Even though he even though it was in

1222
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: a neat pattern, like I said, this one was with it.

1223
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 1: This one came with instructions. So now so okay, so

1224
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: now as we're nearing the end of this this show,

1225
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: so by some miracle, he ends up in the prison

1226
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: with Corey. Yeah, and he has this moment of he

1227
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 1: has this awakening and then he has this moment of

1228
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: feeling guilty. He is a bad word in this particular case.

1229
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: But and then he uh, he spills the beans.

1230
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 2: He spills the being.

1231
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 1: And now you're in prison and you get the word

1232
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 1: how does this happen? You get the word that you've

1233
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: been exonerated.

1234
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,879
Speaker 3: Well, you know what happened was they bring me back

1235
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 3: down and they questioned me, right, they questioned me becau

1236
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 3: because it's not that simple for them to just let

1237
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 3: us go to them. Rayes is the sixth man, right

1238
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 3: to them, we knew each other, We was in cohose

1239
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 3: with each other, and so they have to try to

1240
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,439
Speaker 3: find a connection, and so they give me all these

1241
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 3: photos to see if I know who he is.

1242
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 2: But I don't know who he is, so I never

1243
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 2: picked him out of a photo.

1244
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 3: And so it's a year long investigation by the DA's

1245
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,720
Speaker 3: office before they actually exonerators.

1246
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, so they yeah, so they just had to

1247
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 1: string it out even a little bit longer. But then

1248
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: you do get exagerate.

1249
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 2: Then I do get it.

1250
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: You're in prison.

1251
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 2: So I'm in prison.

1252
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 3: I get the word that I'm exonerating my dad. I'm

1253
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 3: talking to my fault on the phone and he says,

1254
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 3: you know, I said, you know, they keep questioning about

1255
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:45,839
Speaker 3: the old case. And he's like, yeah, because I got

1256
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 3: something to tell you. And I go what, And he says,

1257
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 3: because he's been watching the news and it's all over

1258
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 3: the news and he sees it and this time he's

1259
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 3: he's in touch with the lawyers and he goes, you know,

1260
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 3: they found a guy who did it.

1261
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 2: And and I'm like what and he says.

1262
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, they found them. You get me come home. And

1263
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 3: I'm like, get the fuck out of here. Like I

1264
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 3: was so institutionalized that I didn't even believe him. I

1265
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 3: hung up the phone on them, and I said, you

1266
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 3: know what, I don't even want to talk to you

1267
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 3: no more. You just ruined my day and I hung

1268
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 3: up the phone on them, right. And it wasn't until

1269
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 3: I actually got the call from my attorneys that yeah,

1270
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 3: you're going to be exonerated.

1271
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and then how long was it before you

1272
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 1: got home?

1273
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 3: We got exonerated December fifth, and then I was home.

1274
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 3: My Lloyd said I'll get you home before Christmas, and

1275
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, whatever, and he got me home

1276
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 3: December twenty second.

1277
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: And you when you did finally get that news that

1278
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: you were exonerate, then when you actually believed it, Yeah,

1279
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: what happened? Did you collapse? Did you like start crying, laughing, well, jumping?

1280
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 3: I cried when I found out about rays, and but

1281
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 3: I was still in disbelief. And it wasn't until I

1282
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 3: actually got til I got released. They sent me to

1283
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 3: Queensboro and then they released me from there, and then

1284
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 3: for the first time I actually got to see the

1285
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 3: magnitude of of how much cameras and lights, and because

1286
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 3: I never really been in that situation, that was the

1287
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 3: first time for me.

1288
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 2: So it was really overwhelming, like it was like, wow,

1289
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 2: you know.

1290
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 1: Well, and now let's just talk for a minute about

1291
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: what life is like. Now. I know you're doing a

1292
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: lot of public speaking, raising awareness, definitely, I know you.

1293
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 1: Everyone knows that there was a settlement. Yes you guys.

1294
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 1: I don't think you could ever pay enough for what

1295
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: you've been through. But but you're good now, right, and

1296
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 1: you got some money in the bank.

1297
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 2: Definitely.

1298
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: I see you've got good style, right, you got your

1299
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: you got your's. You can't see it on the radio,

1300
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: but he's looking good and it got a great smile

1301
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: and so so. And now now you have a family.

1302
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 3: Yes, my daughter's twelve years old. I've been married now

1303
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 3: two years.

1304
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1305
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 3: So I'm trying to put the pieces together back slowly

1306
00:57:59,200 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 3: but surely.

1307
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 1: Sounds like you're doing a hell of a job. And

1308
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: I'll tell you something, you know, just just being with

1309
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: you and hearing that story and knowing that you've come

1310
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 1: through this with an incredible spirit and with an incredible attitude,

1311
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: it's it's really it's an inspiration to so many people.

1312
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 1: I don't think you even know. And now I'm hoping

1313
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: that with this runflin Fiction podcast will reach a lot

1314
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: more people, many of whom will have heard parts of

1315
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 1: your story or seen the movie again, the Central Park

1316
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: five incredible movie. Get a chance to see it, and

1317
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: and I'm hoping that again that this will help to

1318
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 1: make a difference in the lives of some other people.

1319
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 1: And you know, I really just appreciate you coming in

1320
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: and sharing your story and your strength and hope and

1321
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: and and and wisdom, and you know, as a New Yorker,

1322
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: I want to apologize to you from all of us

1323
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: that you ever had to go through this, and having

1324
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 1: lived through it, I couldn't have known, you know, it

1325
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 1: was so one side of the pressed. I have no idea.

1326
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 1: And now to be sitting here with you now, it's

1327
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: really it's kind of a thrill for me, to be honest.

1328
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm like I said, I just really want

1329
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 1: to thank you for being here on the show.

1330
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

1331
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

1332
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

1333
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll

1334
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1335
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

1336
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

1337
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1338
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1339
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: nominatede composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1340
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1341
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1342
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Somebody Number One