WEBVTT - Reading: Unintended Consequences 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:07.440 Oh, my goodness, gracious, it's the podcast Behind the Bastards 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:10.239 that this is that you're listening to right now on 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:15.920 the internet dot com. Sylvie, how was? How was that? 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.720 We're doing good? We're doing great. We're doing great. We're 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.560 doing good. Okay great? Well with me to help me 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.920 do great is my buddy Carl cassarda from Enranged TV. Carl, 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.360 are you doing I'm doing all right. I'm glad to 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:32.200 be here again, though I've really enjoyed our last collaboration, 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:34.880 and uh looking forward to the topic we have today. 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:37.599 Oh boy, today is gonna be a fun one. We're 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.159 doing another book episode. We're actually going to record hopefully 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:43.960 to today, although we generally just do one a week 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:46.720 because this this helps me get ahead for some travel 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:49.559 that I have planned. And my goodness, Carl, we have 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:54.200 quite a book uh for everyone today. So I received 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.680 in the mail from a fan a couple of weeks 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.760 ago a hard cover copy of a book called An 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.520 Tended Consequences. Now, Sophie, Carl knows this book. Everyone who's 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.119 in gun culture is aware of this book. You want 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.080 to you want to describe that that cover to our audience. 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:14.200 It's a I think I think it's the Declaration of 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:17.240 Independence on fire? Is that what I'm seeing? That's certainly 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:19.080 part of it. Yeah, I can only see the top 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.120 of it. Can you say, okay, one sec let me 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.480 get my let let me let me see if I 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:28.959 can properly here we go. So I'm just gonna google it. 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:37.840 Consequences book cover. Oh, I recommend people at home check 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:42.760 this one. I take it back because all I could 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:45.280 see was the top, which is the Declaration of Independence 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:49.040 on fire. But it looks like a soldier attacking a 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:53.120 topless woman with who's been blindfolded. Yeah. I think she's 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.320 a Lady Justice. You can see her scales, they're right. Yeah, 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.040 So it's it's like some sort of swat team operative 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.680 attack Lady Justice. And there's nipples you can see, like 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.440 it's full there's full frontal ludity on the cover of 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.640 John Ross's Unintended Consequences. Yeah, it's a super hot Lady 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.720 Justice getting the full Alien Gonzalez treatment with a full 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:16.280 swat team guy with an MP five. What a choice, 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:22.640 What a series of choices? Um? Yeah, and I think 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:29.520 he wrote this. When exactly was this published? Um? I 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:31.680 think actually so, yeah, this would have been right after 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.880 Elian Gonzalez, because I think you're right, Carl, they're very 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:38.200 clearly like doing because he's the cop on the front 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.440 has an MP five, which, if I'm not mistaken, is 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.079 with the cop who grabbed Elian Gonzalez and that famous 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.600 photo had and it's his his like body language is 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:48.960 not dissimilar, No, it isn't. But honestly, I think this 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:51.280 is one of those weird things where the alien Gonzalez 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:53.359 thing happened after they did the cover art, So it's 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:57.359 a weird thing where like actually simulated art. Yeah, that's interesting. 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.400 It's kind of weird. Yeah, So in that regard, I 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:01.120 guess they kind of ailed it, although it wasn't going 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.800 after Lady Justice of course. Yeah, it was going after 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:09.840 a well trying to escape. Yeah. And it's interesting because 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:14.920 I think the main influence behind this book and in 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:19.400 brief this is like a kind of fantasy about gun 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.960 confiscation leading to a civil war type scenario against like 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:25.519 the evil gun grabbing government. And I think it was 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:30.560 very directly inspired by Ruby rich Um, which is kind 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.360 of like a seminal moment for a lot of people 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.800 and is life is actually like just so we're clear 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:38.160 an example of the government doing a lot of really 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.000 fucked up things because they shot a child and his 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:45.559 mom to death in a raid gun horribly awry. Um 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.560 not to kind of like whitewash the some of the 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:51.720 sketchy ship that like their their father was doing, but 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.520 like it's definitely an example of government overreach. But that 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:58.000 Ruby Ridge kind of leads us into this kind of 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.880 explosion of action on behalf of the militia movement, which 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.960 culminates in a big way in the Oklahoma City bombing 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:09.440 after the Waco UH tragedy. So you've got like the 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:14.520 series of largely police overreaches with high body counts, and 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.680 it kind of ignites this militia movement and into that, 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:22.920 into that culture comes a guy named John ross Um. 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.479 Now John is an interesting guy. He calls himself he 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:30.360 was actually a Democratic UH congressional candidate in Missouri in 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:34.839 nine but he calls himself a pre Roosevelt Democrat, which 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.919 he defines as a Democrat without the socialism, which is 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:40.640 interesting because like it's not that far pre Roosevelt that 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.160 the Democrats were the party of slavery. Like, how how 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:47.560 pre are we going? John? Is a question I would 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:50.680 ask anyone to find themselves that way. What what is 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:53.359 your understanding of John Ross, because he's he's he's a 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:56.200 pretty interesting dude. Yeah, I don't know. I looked up 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:58.159 some stuff and some interviews with him, and it's very 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:00.640 clear that whatever he described was all as that. When 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:02.680 he wrote this book, he was promoting it very much 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.080 to the Republican side of things, um, even back in 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.359 the nineties and early two thousands, which is not surprised 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:12.720 at considering how firearms centric his content was. Right. Um, 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.719 I don't know a lot about him in individually, but 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:17.920 I do know quite a bit about the culture around 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.880 the book and the gun shows and the environment that 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:22.359 that was written. And if we get into that a 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.800 little bit, because that was going on then in the 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:26.680 gun community and now I would have to say it 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:28.960 it's hard to believe it's actually better now than it 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.200 was then, But back then it was it was a 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.599 pretty weird space. Yeah, And this is one of those 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:39.360 books you would not have found unintended consequences in like 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.400 Barnes and Noble, Like, it wasn't that kind of I 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:44.719 mean maybe now you can. I'm sure like places like 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.880 Powell's books that make a point of selling absolutely everything, 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.000 sell it. But this was a book that, like I 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:52.640 started to encounter in the early two thousands, like gun shows. 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:54.040 It's one of those. It's one of those books you 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:58.600 would find at gun shows. Um, And it's not it's 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:01.159 in a lot of people compare it to the Turner Diaries. 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:05.640 It is not a neo Nazi book, is my understanding. Um, 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.320 although there's some problematic shit in it, as I'm sure 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.320 we'll get into. But yeah, I mentioned, you mentioned that. 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:12.720 But when you go to the gun shows, like I mean, 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:14.640 gun shows now are still a thing, right, there's like 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:16.840 some weirdness there for sure. But back in the late 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:18.919 nineties early two thousands, a gun show was like this 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.000 kind of dark, denk, musty place with you first walk 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:23.560 in and there's the guy in the right corner, the 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.039 old man with his Nazi paraphernalia. On the left side 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:28.680 was the Confederate and paraphernalia, and then there was the 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.359 book vendor. But how'd all the occult knowledge about how 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.120 to make this thing full auto or how to make 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.560 booby traps? And right there next to that was this 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.400 book from John Ross, Unintended Consequences, And it was like, 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:39.839 I think a lot of people went to the gun 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:41.919 show not only for that, but to go pick up 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:44.080 those crazy books that have now of course been replaced 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:45.920 by the internet. But you come back and you could 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:47.640 have that feeling of being the guy in the know, 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:49.480 and you don't really see that as much at the 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:53.160 gun shows anymore. Yeah, it's in part because there's just 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.520 so much more money, not just in the gun part, 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:57.880 but the culture part of gun culture. Right, there's like 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:01.800 a whole media ecosystem. There's big name magazines, there's large 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:05.800 obviously large YouTube channels. Um there had there is like 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.239 it's it didn't feel in that there was that period 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:11.400 of the the late nineties early two thousands where gun culture 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.720 didn't really feel vibrant. It kind of felt like it 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:18.200 was it was something that was dying and not particularly healthy, 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.840 just in not even in like a not to get 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:22.760 into like a moral sense, but just in like the 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.200 it did not seem like something that had a bright 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.200 future for a while there. Yeah, this is a topic 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.640 for another day, but I actually feel I think that 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:35.320 the honestly, uh, the assault weapon ban of actually made 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:37.960 it more vibrant because it got people to uh, it 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.280 really woke up and maybe some good ways and in 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:45.120 some bad ways. Um uh, an interesting creation. It got 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:46.840 people involved in a way that I don't think people 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.360 were that concerned about before the a w B. And 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.120 I think that's one of the things that fired it 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.520 back up. It did, And I think you get you 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.160 get a lot of funding from politicians and from political 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.520 action groups and whatnot, from the industry that starts coming in, 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.480 which is responsible for like kind of revitalizing gun culture 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:05.040 in a lot of ways and moving it out of 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:09.640 this kind of you know, dank uh jim filled with 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.760 weirdos kind of space that you were describing. So what 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.840 is your understanding about like the overarching plot of unintended consequences? 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.280 Have you read this before? Yeah? I actually I was 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:21.880 one of those guys that picked that up off the 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:23.720 counter because I'm like, what the hell is this thing? Right? 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.920 And um and I mean the overarching plot as I 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:28.800 know it is a guy named Henry Bowman who's the 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:32.320 protagonist and in it fire call correctly, it's been decades 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.840 since I've read it. Um. It takes and builds up 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.680 an argument based on a number of relatively accurate historical 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:43.040 events like the breaking of the Bonus Marchers, the Ruby 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.760 Ridge Waco, amongst others, and then guides that up to 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:49.880 a position in which Henry Bowman gets involved in a 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:51.760 shooting and which he ends up killing some A t 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:55.280 F agents, which then he turns into a essentially counter 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.719 culture coup revolt to destroy the A t F. A 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:00.960 is there the reason, or at least one of the 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.160 reasons that this country is falling into tyranny? I mean, 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.640 that's a real simplistic summary, but that's the premise. And 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:10.600 that's interesting because I my my recollection, like this is 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.360 not an uncommon starting point for kind of novels in 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:15.360 this space that like the A t F there's some 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:18.600 big gun confiscation grab. This essentially how the Turner Diary starts. 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:20.920 But the Turner Diary starts with the assumption that like 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:25.559 it happened and everything's already been outlawed and uh like 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:27.800 that that's kind of like where it goes from there, 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:29.800 whereas this, I think is is kind of more of 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:34.160 a um, more of a slow burn to the start um. 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.640 And I just noticed that my copy from Accurate Press 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.880 is the publisher of this book, has has Mr Ross's 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.720 signature in it, so oh wow, uh huh, yeah, I 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:47.080 got a real, um, a real peach of a copy here, 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.400 so thinks I believe the hard copy version of that's 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:50.880 been out of print for a long time and is 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:55.240 relatively valuable. Actually, well there we go. Um, I'll take this. 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:59.840 Let's try to uh trade this for a man liquor 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:04.200 in ninety four or something like that. What this is 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.839 gonna be interesting conversation because, as I remember in the book, 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.920 this is a challenging piece of work because there's a 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:12.120 lot of problems here obviously, but there's also a lot 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:16.720 of stuff in it that's not necessarily incorrect. Yeah, he's 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.640 definitely not coming at it like, especially on a technical level. 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:21.600 I think he does know what he's talking about. Like 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:23.360 it's not one of these we've talked laughed about the 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.920 Ben Shapiro books and the things he gets wrong about guns. 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.200 I believe John Ross actually knows how firearms function. I do. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:31.720 I agree with you, and I think he gets some 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.000 of the historical stuff true as correct as well. To 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.360 be honest, Yeah, he's a nerd about this, although I 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.839 should note so he had a regular Internet column for 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:41.800 for a long time. He's kind of an older dude now, 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.000 so I don't think it's still going. Um. But his 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.960 Wikipedia says that his column Ross and Range was where 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.720 he discussed topics that interest him. Quote a recurring theme 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:55.040 is understanding and coping with women. So and that was 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.439 my recollection of this book too, that like not a 0:10:57.480 --> 0:10:58.880 lot of We're not going to find a lot of 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:04.720 well written male characters here. Um, but yeah, it notes 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.160 on the back here. John Ross is an investment broker 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.800 and financial advisor in St. Louis. He went to Amherst College, 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.400 which I think might surprise some people. Um, and he 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.040 was an early concealed carry advocate. So this is also 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:17.560 a thing like when you talk about sort of the 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:19.560 history of gun culture in this guy's roll in it, 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.960 there was this period of time like now most states 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.160 have some sort of concealed carry. A lot, even in 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:30.320 California is getting easier to get a concealed carry license. 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:32.560 I know someone in San Diego who just got their's, 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:34.760 which was like there's been a series of legal battles 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.320 around that, but it wasn't possible to legally concealed carry 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:40.480 in a lot of the country like thirty years ago. 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:42.440 Oh less than that, it wasn't that long A though 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.800 the concealed carry was considered like a pretty crazy concept, 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.040 and as one state after another started really changing to 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:50.480 the point where we see a number of states now 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.679 which don't even require permits anymore. They're called constitutional carry. 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.480 But twenty something years ago that wasn't the case, Like 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:58.600 you have to go through two days of training and 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:00.600 get a background for permit, and you have to apply 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:02.200 for this and have a background check. And that was 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.120 in a place that was permissive, like Arizona. Other places 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.880 it was considered impossible. But like you said, in California, 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:09.800 even there are certain counties that I think are kind 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.360 of shall issue now. Yeah, And it's one of those 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.920 things where even in like a place like Texas, which 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.000 has I think most people who kind of aren't super 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.000 aware of the history see is just like always this 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.080 fashion of gun rights, and like the nineties, you could 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.479 not carry a gun in Texas under very most circumstances. 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.000 And in fact, one of the things that changed that 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.040 I forget the exact year. You may know more about 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:32.280 this than I do, but there was a mass shooting 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.880 at a Louby's um where a guy killed a lot 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.000 of people and at least one of the people who 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:38.800 was in the Loubi's during the shooting, like had a 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:40.800 weapon in their car, but they couldn't bring it in, 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:45.480 and that kind of ignited the concealed carry uh movement 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.360 within sort of Texas. UM and John Ross was a 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.080 big part of that in Missouri and was like a 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.960 major advocate for it in Missouri. So that's kind of 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.480 the context of this, dude, and in which this book 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.200 is written. So there's a lot going on here. Um. 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.840 And now we're gonna We're gonna start this very small 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.679 print book. I should note this is a massive book. 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.480 This is like, this is like the size of the 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:09.840 first two Lord of the Rings books. Like, this is 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:14.120 a this is an enormous text. So heads up, I 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:15.920 don't think we're ever going to get through all of it, 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.520 but this is a this is an interesting piece of 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.680 history here for people who are we see how tiny 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:25.120 the font is. Oh yeah, Sophie, look at this. Oh 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.480 my god, I know this is this is There are 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:32.200 so many words in this book, so yeah, do we 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.320 have I'm going to look up the word count. Go ahead, Yeah, yeah, 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.599 you should do that. So it starts with present day. 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:41.760 It was late afternoon when he finally heard them coming 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.079 to kill him. The wind was blowing gently towards him, 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.520 and it carried the sound well two choppers, he judged 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.680 from the pitch of the engines, possibly three. Henry realized 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:51.559 that his first emotion upon hearing the sound of the 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.520 rudder blades approaching was an overwhelming sense of relief. The 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.440 waiting was over. His next thought concerned the relatives of 0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:59.600 the men that were about to die. The widows will 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.160 never stand that their husbands died because the government got 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.800 a little too heavy handed after June of nineteen sixty. 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.320 He scanned the sky until he spotted the aircraft approaching 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:11.839 from the north. This isn't that isn't quite right. The 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:13.960 Kennedy and King killings weren't the first links in the 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.320 chain that dragged us here. No, the death sentence was 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.440 handed down before World War Two. So this guy is 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.040 getting ready to like murder a bunch of federal agents 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.200 coming to his house, and he's thinking about the March 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.880 of tyranny and like debating with himself whether or not 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.840 it started with the assassinations of JFK and Martin Luther King. 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.360 And he's shades of Waco too, because if you've ever 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.200 been to the Waco site. There's memorial stones. They're placed 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.880 by the Davidians, and they immoralized not only their own 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:42.720 lost people, but they memorialized each lost a t F agent, 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.560 which was sort of impressive to see. That is interesting. 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:50.400 I actually was unaware of that. Um huh, that's interesting. 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.320 They pretty much memorialize it as a tragedy all around. 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.720 And there's there's stones there for the government agents that died. Huh. 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:58.880 I I did not know that. That's certainly like more 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:01.840 nuanced then I think we're going to get on Waco here. 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:10.360 Although yeah, um so yeah, it's uh, what is a solo? Third, 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.440 I guess that's the gun he's got here. Yeah, that's 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.280 a I believe that's the same. Okay. So it's like 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.200 an anti anti yeah, a lotty Like it's an anti 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:23.600 vehicle weapon, like very big bullet twenty millimeter bullets is 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:28.160 like the size of a small person's forearm. Yeah that material. Yeah, 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.560 it's for shooting through armored vehicles. So he decides, after 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:34.600 like debating with himself while he's willing to kill his 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:36.680 waiting to kill these federal agents, that the thing that 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.600 ended started the end of liberty in the United States 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.560 was a Supreme Court case involving a Moonshiner who was 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.800 arrested in nineteen thirty eight. A federal district court had 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.280 thrown out the charges as being unconstitutional, and the government 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.960 had appealed. At the hearing, something very unusual had happened. 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.560 Neither the Moonshiner nor his lawyer had seen fit to 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.000 appear before the court to argue the case. They didn't 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.400 even bother to file a brief on the Moonshiner's behalf. 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.080 The court ruled for the government, radial precedent was set, 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.480 and the issue was never again heard by the Supreme Court. 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.720 The nineteen thirty nine ruling became the foundation upon which 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.880 many additional laws were constructed. The Supreme Court has been 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.320 ducking that issue ever since. Henry thought, is he strained 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.880 to hear a change in the approaching noise? Well, guys, 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:16.960 the time has turned. It's time you thugs had a 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.720 little history lesson. I don't suppose you're familiar with what 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.160 happened in the Warsaw Ghetto in nineteen forty three. So 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.640 you're seeing he's drawing like a line here between the 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:32.200 Nazis cracking down on the Warsaw Ghetto and massacreing Jewish people, um, 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:37.160 and charges against bootleggers during Uh, that's that's actually after 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.760 Prohibition nineteen thirty eight. That's interesting, Like this is this 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:42.960 is a weird opening. I'll give it. I'll give one 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.960 thing to him. He's definitely a better writer than Ben Shapiro, 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:50.720 like already, um, and if you read the book, he 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:52.880 knows more about sex in general too, even if his 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:58.760 even if the way he models his super low bar Robert, 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.560 I didn't find the a word count. But the this 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:06.040 book is like only has five star reviews. Yeah, that 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.680 makes well because the only people who read this than 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:12.880 like Carl and I right now are people who are 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.560 already primed to want to read this book. It's just 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:18.760 very interesting because normally when we do a book episode, 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:23.560 it's like the reviews are horrendous. I have not seen 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.360 a review. But isn't five stars? Yeah that makes sense. 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.400 There's five plus on Amazon and they're all five stars. 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:35.320 And like there's even like fan art in the room. Yeah, 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:37.639 oh boy, I'll bet you don't want to look at 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:41.360 that fan art, Sophie. You simply do not know. Yeah, 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:42.960 but so it's interesting. Is this what I was talking 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:44.720 is he does get into a lot of Actually he 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:46.960 does reference a lot of real history, like that US 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.800 versus Miller is that Supreme Court case, and in that 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.240 that moon that that bootlegger had a shotgun that was 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.119 below legal length I believe or something like that. Neither 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.200 of them showed. But the court ruled in an interesting 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.080 way that the gun that they were persecuting him for 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:05.680 wasn't useful as a militia weapon, therefore it didn't apply. Ah, 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:07.919 so this is like the start of kind of the probe. 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:10.439 That's that's where is that where the law against like 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.920 short barreled shotguns came. We're talking about the n f 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:18.199 A and shotguns. But the moonshiner had a shotgun that 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.919 was I believe was below legal length, and that's what 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.360 this was about. But then when the court ruled against him, 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.560 they didn't rule against him because of they ruled that 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:30.119 the shotgun really wasn't viable for militia use, Which that 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.040 opens up a weird door about does that mean specifically 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.359 that the that the Second Amendment applies only to guns 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:38.760 that are for militia martial use, like an r fIF 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.040 team for example. That's where you see this stuff and 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.880 these arguments come out of. That's interesting because with DC 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:47.760 versus Heller, like there's this kind of understanding. The current 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.960 Supreme Court understanding is that the Second Amenment does protect 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.399 an individual right to bear arms. And it seems like 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.000 in thirty eight they were saying that, like, this gun 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.240 is illegal because it is not something that would be 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.119 useful as part of a militia. And so were we like, 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:04.600 the individual does not have a right just to bear 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:08.160 arms for individual purposes, So then isn't legal if it's 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.960 not useful in a militia. So reading this, it says 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.200 the Supreme Court hinted that individual right might exist in 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.919 the concust of a common obligation to possess arms and 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:17.840 to cooperate in the work of defense, and that a 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.800 sought off shotgun the fire issue in this case, was 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:25.440 not protective because it had no reasonable relationship to the preservations, preservation, 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:29.359 or efficiency of a well regulated militia. Now that's a 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.040 fascinating ruling because I think basically everyone today would be 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:35.520 angry at it, Like if you're pro gun control, then 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.040 you're going to be angry that it's basically saying, like, well, 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:40.720 weapons that are useful in terms of like fighting in 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.160 part of a militia are legal, like an a R fifteen, 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:46.480 but like which I think pro gun control people generally 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:50.080 disagree with. And if your pro gun rights, you're like, well, 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:52.200 why why would I be able to have an a 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.280 R fifteen but not a much less deadly weapon as 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.200 sought off shotgun? That's like way less effective at killing people. 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.000 That doesn't make any sense either. It's a like it 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.960 is a pretty nonsensical ruling, I think by most standards. 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:07.480 I know there's more wrapped up in that, because I 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:09.840 think there was a lot of fear over specifically sought 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.320 off shotguns as a result of like the bootlegging era, right, 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.680 because that was like a famous crime gun um, even 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.359