1
00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:07,440
Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness, gracious, it's the podcast Behind the Bastards

2
00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,239
Speaker 1: that this is that you're listening to right now on

3
00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:15,920
Speaker 1: the internet dot com. Sylvie, how was? How was that?

4
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,720
Speaker 1: We're doing good? We're doing great. We're doing great. We're

5
00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,560
Speaker 1: doing good. Okay great? Well with me to help me

6
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,920
Speaker 1: do great is my buddy Carl cassarda from Enranged TV. Carl,

7
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,360
Speaker 1: are you doing I'm doing all right. I'm glad to

8
00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,200
Speaker 1: be here again, though I've really enjoyed our last collaboration,

9
00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,880
Speaker 1: and uh looking forward to the topic we have today.

10
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,599
Speaker 1: Oh boy, today is gonna be a fun one. We're

11
00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,159
Speaker 1: doing another book episode. We're actually going to record hopefully

12
00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,960
Speaker 1: to today, although we generally just do one a week

13
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,720
Speaker 1: because this this helps me get ahead for some travel

14
00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,559
Speaker 1: that I have planned. And my goodness, Carl, we have

15
00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,200
Speaker 1: quite a book uh for everyone today. So I received

16
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,680
Speaker 1: in the mail from a fan a couple of weeks

17
00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,760
Speaker 1: ago a hard cover copy of a book called An

18
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,520
Speaker 1: Tended Consequences. Now, Sophie, Carl knows this book. Everyone who's

19
00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,119
Speaker 1: in gun culture is aware of this book. You want

20
00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,080
Speaker 1: to you want to describe that that cover to our audience.

21
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,200
Speaker 1: It's a I think I think it's the Declaration of

22
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,240
Speaker 1: Independence on fire? Is that what I'm seeing? That's certainly

23
00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,080
Speaker 1: part of it. Yeah, I can only see the top

24
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,120
Speaker 1: of it. Can you say, okay, one sec let me

25
00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,480
Speaker 1: get my let let me let me see if I

26
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,959
Speaker 1: can properly here we go. So I'm just gonna google it.

27
00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:37,840
Speaker 1: Consequences book cover. Oh, I recommend people at home check

28
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,760
Speaker 1: this one. I take it back because all I could

29
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,280
Speaker 1: see was the top, which is the Declaration of Independence

30
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,040
Speaker 1: on fire. But it looks like a soldier attacking a

31
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,120
Speaker 1: topless woman with who's been blindfolded. Yeah. I think she's

32
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 1: a Lady Justice. You can see her scales, they're right. Yeah,

33
00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,040
Speaker 1: So it's it's like some sort of swat team operative

34
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,680
Speaker 1: attack Lady Justice. And there's nipples you can see, like

35
00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,440
Speaker 1: it's full there's full frontal ludity on the cover of

36
00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,640
Speaker 1: John Ross's Unintended Consequences. Yeah, it's a super hot Lady

37
00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,720
Speaker 1: Justice getting the full Alien Gonzalez treatment with a full

38
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,280
Speaker 1: swat team guy with an MP five. What a choice,

39
00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:22,640
Speaker 1: What a series of choices? Um? Yeah, and I think

40
00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:29,520
Speaker 1: he wrote this. When exactly was this published? Um? I

41
00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,680
Speaker 1: think actually so, yeah, this would have been right after

42
00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,880
Speaker 1: Elian Gonzalez, because I think you're right, Carl, they're very

43
00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 1: clearly like doing because he's the cop on the front

44
00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,440
Speaker 1: has an MP five, which, if I'm not mistaken, is

45
00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,079
Speaker 1: with the cop who grabbed Elian Gonzalez and that famous

46
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,600
Speaker 1: photo had and it's his his like body language is

47
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,960
Speaker 1: not dissimilar, No, it isn't. But honestly, I think this

48
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,280
Speaker 1: is one of those weird things where the alien Gonzalez

49
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,359
Speaker 1: thing happened after they did the cover art, So it's

50
00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,359
Speaker 1: a weird thing where like actually simulated art. Yeah, that's interesting.

51
00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,400
Speaker 1: It's kind of weird. Yeah, So in that regard, I

52
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,120
Speaker 1: guess they kind of ailed it, although it wasn't going

53
00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,800
Speaker 1: after Lady Justice of course. Yeah, it was going after

54
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 1: a well trying to escape. Yeah. And it's interesting because

55
00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:14,920
Speaker 1: I think the main influence behind this book and in

56
00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,400
Speaker 1: brief this is like a kind of fantasy about gun

57
00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,960
Speaker 1: confiscation leading to a civil war type scenario against like

58
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,519
Speaker 1: the evil gun grabbing government. And I think it was

59
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:30,560
Speaker 1: very directly inspired by Ruby rich Um, which is kind

60
00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,360
Speaker 1: of like a seminal moment for a lot of people

61
00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,800
Speaker 1: and is life is actually like just so we're clear

62
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,160
Speaker 1: an example of the government doing a lot of really

63
00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,000
Speaker 1: fucked up things because they shot a child and his

64
00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:45,559
Speaker 1: mom to death in a raid gun horribly awry. Um

65
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,560
Speaker 1: not to kind of like whitewash the some of the

66
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,720
Speaker 1: sketchy ship that like their their father was doing, but

67
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,520
Speaker 1: like it's definitely an example of government overreach. But that

68
00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,000
Speaker 1: Ruby Ridge kind of leads us into this kind of

69
00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,880
Speaker 1: explosion of action on behalf of the militia movement, which

70
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 1: culminates in a big way in the Oklahoma City bombing

71
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,440
Speaker 1: after the Waco UH tragedy. So you've got like the

72
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,520
Speaker 1: series of largely police overreaches with high body counts, and

73
00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,680
Speaker 1: it kind of ignites this militia movement and into that,

74
00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,920
Speaker 1: into that culture comes a guy named John ross Um.

75
00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,479
Speaker 1: Now John is an interesting guy. He calls himself he

76
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,360
Speaker 1: was actually a Democratic UH congressional candidate in Missouri in

77
00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,839
Speaker 1: nine but he calls himself a pre Roosevelt Democrat, which

78
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,919
Speaker 1: he defines as a Democrat without the socialism, which is

79
00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,640
Speaker 1: interesting because like it's not that far pre Roosevelt that

80
00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,160
Speaker 1: the Democrats were the party of slavery. Like, how how

81
00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,560
Speaker 1: pre are we going? John? Is a question I would

82
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,680
Speaker 1: ask anyone to find themselves that way. What what is

83
00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,359
Speaker 1: your understanding of John Ross, because he's he's he's a

84
00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,200
Speaker 1: pretty interesting dude. Yeah, I don't know. I looked up

85
00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,159
Speaker 1: some stuff and some interviews with him, and it's very

86
00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,640
Speaker 1: clear that whatever he described was all as that. When

87
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,680
Speaker 1: he wrote this book, he was promoting it very much

88
00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,080
Speaker 1: to the Republican side of things, um, even back in

89
00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,359
Speaker 1: the nineties and early two thousands, which is not surprised

90
00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,720
Speaker 1: at considering how firearms centric his content was. Right. Um,

91
00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,719
Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about him in individually, but

92
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,920
Speaker 1: I do know quite a bit about the culture around

93
00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,880
Speaker 1: the book and the gun shows and the environment that

94
00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,359
Speaker 1: that was written. And if we get into that a

95
00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,800
Speaker 1: little bit, because that was going on then in the

96
00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,680
Speaker 1: gun community and now I would have to say it

97
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,960
Speaker 1: it's hard to believe it's actually better now than it

98
00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,200
Speaker 1: was then, But back then it was it was a

99
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,599
Speaker 1: pretty weird space. Yeah, And this is one of those

100
00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:39,360
Speaker 1: books you would not have found unintended consequences in like

101
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,400
Speaker 1: Barnes and Noble, Like, it wasn't that kind of I

102
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,719
Speaker 1: mean maybe now you can. I'm sure like places like

103
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 1: Powell's books that make a point of selling absolutely everything,

104
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 1: sell it. But this was a book that, like I

105
00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,640
Speaker 1: started to encounter in the early two thousands, like gun shows.

106
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,040
Speaker 1: It's one of those. It's one of those books you

107
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,600
Speaker 1: would find at gun shows. Um, And it's not it's

108
00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,159
Speaker 1: in a lot of people compare it to the Turner Diaries.

109
00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,640
Speaker 1: It is not a neo Nazi book, is my understanding. Um,

110
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,320
Speaker 1: although there's some problematic shit in it, as I'm sure

111
00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,320
Speaker 1: we'll get into. But yeah, I mentioned, you mentioned that.

112
00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:12,720
Speaker 1: But when you go to the gun shows, like I mean,

113
00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,640
Speaker 1: gun shows now are still a thing, right, there's like

114
00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,840
Speaker 1: some weirdness there for sure. But back in the late

115
00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:18,919
Speaker 1: nineties early two thousands, a gun show was like this

116
00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,000
Speaker 1: kind of dark, denk, musty place with you first walk

117
00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,560
Speaker 1: in and there's the guy in the right corner, the

118
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,039
Speaker 1: old man with his Nazi paraphernalia. On the left side

119
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,680
Speaker 1: was the Confederate and paraphernalia, and then there was the

120
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,359
Speaker 1: book vendor. But how'd all the occult knowledge about how

121
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,120
Speaker 1: to make this thing full auto or how to make

122
00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,560
Speaker 1: booby traps? And right there next to that was this

123
00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,400
Speaker 1: book from John Ross, Unintended Consequences, And it was like,

124
00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:39,839
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people went to the gun

125
00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:41,919
Speaker 1: show not only for that, but to go pick up

126
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,080
Speaker 1: those crazy books that have now of course been replaced

127
00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:45,920
Speaker 1: by the internet. But you come back and you could

128
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:47,640
Speaker 1: have that feeling of being the guy in the know,

129
00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:49,480
Speaker 1: and you don't really see that as much at the

130
00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,160
Speaker 1: gun shows anymore. Yeah, it's in part because there's just

131
00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,520
Speaker 1: so much more money, not just in the gun part,

132
00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,880
Speaker 1: but the culture part of gun culture. Right, there's like

133
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,800
Speaker 1: a whole media ecosystem. There's big name magazines, there's large

134
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,800
Speaker 1: obviously large YouTube channels. Um there had there is like

135
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,239
Speaker 1: it's it didn't feel in that there was that period

136
00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,400
Speaker 1: of the the late nineties early two thousands where gun culture

137
00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,720
Speaker 1: didn't really feel vibrant. It kind of felt like it

138
00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,200
Speaker 1: was it was something that was dying and not particularly healthy,

139
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,840
Speaker 1: just in not even in like a not to get

140
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 1: into like a moral sense, but just in like the

141
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,200
Speaker 1: it did not seem like something that had a bright

142
00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 1: future for a while there. Yeah, this is a topic

143
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 1: for another day, but I actually feel I think that

144
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 1: the honestly, uh, the assault weapon ban of actually made

145
00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,960
Speaker 1: it more vibrant because it got people to uh, it

146
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,280
Speaker 1: really woke up and maybe some good ways and in

147
00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,120
Speaker 1: some bad ways. Um uh, an interesting creation. It got

148
00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 1: people involved in a way that I don't think people

149
00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,360
Speaker 1: were that concerned about before the a w B. And

150
00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,120
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the things that fired it

151
00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,520
Speaker 1: back up. It did, And I think you get you

152
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,160
Speaker 1: get a lot of funding from politicians and from political

153
00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,520
Speaker 1: action groups and whatnot, from the industry that starts coming in,

154
00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,480
Speaker 1: which is responsible for like kind of revitalizing gun culture

155
00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,040
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways and moving it out of

156
00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,640
Speaker 1: this kind of you know, dank uh jim filled with

157
00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,760
Speaker 1: weirdos kind of space that you were describing. So what

158
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,840
Speaker 1: is your understanding about like the overarching plot of unintended consequences?

159
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,280
Speaker 1: Have you read this before? Yeah? I actually I was

160
00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 1: one of those guys that picked that up off the

161
00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:23,720
Speaker 1: counter because I'm like, what the hell is this thing? Right?

162
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,920
Speaker 1: And um and I mean the overarching plot as I

163
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,800
Speaker 1: know it is a guy named Henry Bowman who's the

164
00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,320
Speaker 1: protagonist and in it fire call correctly, it's been decades

165
00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,840
Speaker 1: since I've read it. Um. It takes and builds up

166
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,680
Speaker 1: an argument based on a number of relatively accurate historical

167
00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:43,040
Speaker 1: events like the breaking of the Bonus Marchers, the Ruby

168
00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,760
Speaker 1: Ridge Waco, amongst others, and then guides that up to

169
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 1: a position in which Henry Bowman gets involved in a

170
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:51,760
Speaker 1: shooting and which he ends up killing some A t

171
00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,280
Speaker 1: F agents, which then he turns into a essentially counter

172
00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,719
Speaker 1: culture coup revolt to destroy the A t F. A

173
00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:00,960
Speaker 1: is there the reason, or at least one of the

174
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,160
Speaker 1: reasons that this country is falling into tyranny? I mean,

175
00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,640
Speaker 1: that's a real simplistic summary, but that's the premise. And

176
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,600
Speaker 1: that's interesting because I my my recollection, like this is

177
00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,360
Speaker 1: not an uncommon starting point for kind of novels in

178
00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,360
Speaker 1: this space that like the A t F there's some

179
00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,600
Speaker 1: big gun confiscation grab. This essentially how the Turner Diary starts.

180
00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:20,920
Speaker 1: But the Turner Diary starts with the assumption that like

181
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,559
Speaker 1: it happened and everything's already been outlawed and uh like

182
00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,800
Speaker 1: that that's kind of like where it goes from there,

183
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:29,800
Speaker 1: whereas this, I think is is kind of more of

184
00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 1: a um, more of a slow burn to the start um.

185
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,640
Speaker 1: And I just noticed that my copy from Accurate Press

186
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,880
Speaker 1: is the publisher of this book, has has Mr Ross's

187
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,720
Speaker 1: signature in it, so oh wow, uh huh, yeah, I

188
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,080
Speaker 1: got a real, um, a real peach of a copy here,

189
00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,400
Speaker 1: so thinks I believe the hard copy version of that's

190
00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:50,880
Speaker 1: been out of print for a long time and is

191
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,240
Speaker 1: relatively valuable. Actually, well there we go. Um, I'll take this.

192
00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,840
Speaker 1: Let's try to uh trade this for a man liquor

193
00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:04,200
Speaker 1: in ninety four or something like that. What this is

194
00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,839
Speaker 1: gonna be interesting conversation because, as I remember in the book,

195
00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,920
Speaker 1: this is a challenging piece of work because there's a

196
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 1: lot of problems here obviously, but there's also a lot

197
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,720
Speaker 1: of stuff in it that's not necessarily incorrect. Yeah, he's

198
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,640
Speaker 1: definitely not coming at it like, especially on a technical level.

199
00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,600
Speaker 1: I think he does know what he's talking about. Like

200
00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,360
Speaker 1: it's not one of these we've talked laughed about the

201
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,920
Speaker 1: Ben Shapiro books and the things he gets wrong about guns.

202
00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,200
Speaker 1: I believe John Ross actually knows how firearms function. I do.

203
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:31,720
Speaker 1: I agree with you, and I think he gets some

204
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,000
Speaker 1: of the historical stuff true as correct as well. To

205
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,360
Speaker 1: be honest, Yeah, he's a nerd about this, although I

206
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,839
Speaker 1: should note so he had a regular Internet column for

207
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,800
Speaker 1: for a long time. He's kind of an older dude now,

208
00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,000
Speaker 1: so I don't think it's still going. Um. But his

209
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,960
Speaker 1: Wikipedia says that his column Ross and Range was where

210
00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,720
Speaker 1: he discussed topics that interest him. Quote a recurring theme

211
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:55,040
Speaker 1: is understanding and coping with women. So and that was

212
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,439
Speaker 1: my recollection of this book too, that like not a

213
00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:58,880
Speaker 1: lot of We're not going to find a lot of

214
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:04,720
Speaker 1: well written male characters here. Um, but yeah, it notes

215
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,160
Speaker 1: on the back here. John Ross is an investment broker

216
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,800
Speaker 1: and financial advisor in St. Louis. He went to Amherst College,

217
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,400
Speaker 1: which I think might surprise some people. Um, and he

218
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,040
Speaker 1: was an early concealed carry advocate. So this is also

219
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:17,560
Speaker 1: a thing like when you talk about sort of the

220
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,560
Speaker 1: history of gun culture in this guy's roll in it,

221
00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,960
Speaker 1: there was this period of time like now most states

222
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,160
Speaker 1: have some sort of concealed carry. A lot, even in

223
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,320
Speaker 1: California is getting easier to get a concealed carry license.

224
00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,560
Speaker 1: I know someone in San Diego who just got their's,

225
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,760
Speaker 1: which was like there's been a series of legal battles

226
00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,320
Speaker 1: around that, but it wasn't possible to legally concealed carry

227
00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,480
Speaker 1: in a lot of the country like thirty years ago.

228
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,440
Speaker 1: Oh less than that, it wasn't that long A though

229
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,800
Speaker 1: the concealed carry was considered like a pretty crazy concept,

230
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,040
Speaker 1: and as one state after another started really changing to

231
00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:50,480
Speaker 1: the point where we see a number of states now

232
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,679
Speaker 1: which don't even require permits anymore. They're called constitutional carry.

233
00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,480
Speaker 1: But twenty something years ago that wasn't the case, Like

234
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,600
Speaker 1: you have to go through two days of training and

235
00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,600
Speaker 1: get a background for permit, and you have to apply

236
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,200
Speaker 1: for this and have a background check. And that was

237
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,120
Speaker 1: in a place that was permissive, like Arizona. Other places

238
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,880
Speaker 1: it was considered impossible. But like you said, in California,

239
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 1: even there are certain counties that I think are kind

240
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,360
Speaker 1: of shall issue now. Yeah, And it's one of those

241
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,920
Speaker 1: things where even in like a place like Texas, which

242
00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,000
Speaker 1: has I think most people who kind of aren't super

243
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,000
Speaker 1: aware of the history see is just like always this

244
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,080
Speaker 1: fashion of gun rights, and like the nineties, you could

245
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,479
Speaker 1: not carry a gun in Texas under very most circumstances.

246
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,000
Speaker 1: And in fact, one of the things that changed that

247
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 1: I forget the exact year. You may know more about

248
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,280
Speaker 1: this than I do, but there was a mass shooting

249
00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,880
Speaker 1: at a Louby's um where a guy killed a lot

250
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,000
Speaker 1: of people and at least one of the people who

251
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:38,800
Speaker 1: was in the Loubi's during the shooting, like had a

252
00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,800
Speaker 1: weapon in their car, but they couldn't bring it in,

253
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,480
Speaker 1: and that kind of ignited the concealed carry uh movement

254
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,360
Speaker 1: within sort of Texas. UM and John Ross was a

255
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,080
Speaker 1: big part of that in Missouri and was like a

256
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,960
Speaker 1: major advocate for it in Missouri. So that's kind of

257
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,480
Speaker 1: the context of this, dude, and in which this book

258
00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,200
Speaker 1: is written. So there's a lot going on here. Um.

259
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,840
Speaker 1: And now we're gonna We're gonna start this very small

260
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,679
Speaker 1: print book. I should note this is a massive book.

261
00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,480
Speaker 1: This is like, this is like the size of the

262
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,840
Speaker 1: first two Lord of the Rings books. Like, this is

263
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,120
Speaker 1: a this is an enormous text. So heads up, I

264
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:15,920
Speaker 1: don't think we're ever going to get through all of it,

265
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,520
Speaker 1: but this is a this is an interesting piece of

266
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,680
Speaker 1: history here for people who are we see how tiny

267
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,120
Speaker 1: the font is. Oh yeah, Sophie, look at this. Oh

268
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,480
Speaker 1: my god, I know this is this is There are

269
00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,200
Speaker 1: so many words in this book, so yeah, do we

270
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,320
Speaker 1: have I'm going to look up the word count. Go ahead, Yeah, yeah,

271
00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,599
Speaker 1: you should do that. So it starts with present day.

272
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,760
Speaker 1: It was late afternoon when he finally heard them coming

273
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,079
Speaker 1: to kill him. The wind was blowing gently towards him,

274
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,520
Speaker 1: and it carried the sound well two choppers, he judged

275
00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,680
Speaker 1: from the pitch of the engines, possibly three. Henry realized

276
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,559
Speaker 1: that his first emotion upon hearing the sound of the

277
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,520
Speaker 1: rudder blades approaching was an overwhelming sense of relief. The

278
00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,440
Speaker 1: waiting was over. His next thought concerned the relatives of

279
00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,600
Speaker 1: the men that were about to die. The widows will

280
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,160
Speaker 1: never stand that their husbands died because the government got

281
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,800
Speaker 1: a little too heavy handed after June of nineteen sixty.

282
00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,320
Speaker 1: He scanned the sky until he spotted the aircraft approaching

283
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,839
Speaker 1: from the north. This isn't that isn't quite right. The

284
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,960
Speaker 1: Kennedy and King killings weren't the first links in the

285
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,320
Speaker 1: chain that dragged us here. No, the death sentence was

286
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,440
Speaker 1: handed down before World War Two. So this guy is

287
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,040
Speaker 1: getting ready to like murder a bunch of federal agents

288
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,200
Speaker 1: coming to his house, and he's thinking about the March

289
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,880
Speaker 1: of tyranny and like debating with himself whether or not

290
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,840
Speaker 1: it started with the assassinations of JFK and Martin Luther King.

291
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,360
Speaker 1: And he's shades of Waco too, because if you've ever

292
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,200
Speaker 1: been to the Waco site. There's memorial stones. They're placed

293
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,880
Speaker 1: by the Davidians, and they immoralized not only their own

294
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,720
Speaker 1: lost people, but they memorialized each lost a t F agent,

295
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,560
Speaker 1: which was sort of impressive to see. That is interesting.

296
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:50,400
Speaker 1: I actually was unaware of that. Um huh, that's interesting.

297
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,320
Speaker 1: They pretty much memorialize it as a tragedy all around.

298
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 1: And there's there's stones there for the government agents that died. Huh.

299
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,880
Speaker 1: I I did not know that. That's certainly like more

300
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,840
Speaker 1: nuanced then I think we're going to get on Waco here.

301
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:10,360
Speaker 1: Although yeah, um so yeah, it's uh, what is a solo? Third,

302
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,440
Speaker 1: I guess that's the gun he's got here. Yeah, that's

303
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,280
Speaker 1: a I believe that's the same. Okay. So it's like

304
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,200
Speaker 1: an anti anti yeah, a lotty Like it's an anti

305
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 1: vehicle weapon, like very big bullet twenty millimeter bullets is

306
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,160
Speaker 1: like the size of a small person's forearm. Yeah that material. Yeah,

307
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,560
Speaker 1: it's for shooting through armored vehicles. So he decides, after

308
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:34,600
Speaker 1: like debating with himself while he's willing to kill his

309
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 1: waiting to kill these federal agents, that the thing that

310
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,600
Speaker 1: ended started the end of liberty in the United States

311
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 1: was a Supreme Court case involving a Moonshiner who was

312
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,800
Speaker 1: arrested in nineteen thirty eight. A federal district court had

313
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,280
Speaker 1: thrown out the charges as being unconstitutional, and the government

314
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,960
Speaker 1: had appealed. At the hearing, something very unusual had happened.

315
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,560
Speaker 1: Neither the Moonshiner nor his lawyer had seen fit to

316
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,000
Speaker 1: appear before the court to argue the case. They didn't

317
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,400
Speaker 1: even bother to file a brief on the Moonshiner's behalf.

318
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,080
Speaker 1: The court ruled for the government, radial precedent was set,

319
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,480
Speaker 1: and the issue was never again heard by the Supreme Court.

320
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,720
Speaker 1: The nineteen thirty nine ruling became the foundation upon which

321
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,880
Speaker 1: many additional laws were constructed. The Supreme Court has been

322
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,320
Speaker 1: ducking that issue ever since. Henry thought, is he strained

323
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,880
Speaker 1: to hear a change in the approaching noise? Well, guys,

324
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:16,960
Speaker 1: the time has turned. It's time you thugs had a

325
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,720
Speaker 1: little history lesson. I don't suppose you're familiar with what

326
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,160
Speaker 1: happened in the Warsaw Ghetto in nineteen forty three. So

327
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,640
Speaker 1: you're seeing he's drawing like a line here between the

328
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:32,200
Speaker 1: Nazis cracking down on the Warsaw Ghetto and massacreing Jewish people, um,

329
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:37,160
Speaker 1: and charges against bootleggers during Uh, that's that's actually after

330
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,760
Speaker 1: Prohibition nineteen thirty eight. That's interesting, Like this is this

331
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 1: is a weird opening. I'll give it. I'll give one

332
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,960
Speaker 1: thing to him. He's definitely a better writer than Ben Shapiro,

333
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,720
Speaker 1: like already, um, and if you read the book, he

334
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,880
Speaker 1: knows more about sex in general too, even if his

335
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:58,760
Speaker 1: even if the way he models his super low bar Robert,

336
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,560
Speaker 1: I didn't find the a word count. But the this

337
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 1: book is like only has five star reviews. Yeah, that

338
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,680
Speaker 1: makes well because the only people who read this than

339
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,880
Speaker 1: like Carl and I right now are people who are

340
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 1: already primed to want to read this book. It's just

341
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 1: very interesting because normally when we do a book episode,

342
00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:23,560
Speaker 1: it's like the reviews are horrendous. I have not seen

343
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,360
Speaker 1: a review. But isn't five stars? Yeah that makes sense.

344
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,400
Speaker 1: There's five plus on Amazon and they're all five stars.

345
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,320
Speaker 1: And like there's even like fan art in the room. Yeah,

346
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,639
Speaker 1: oh boy, I'll bet you don't want to look at

347
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,360
Speaker 1: that fan art, Sophie. You simply do not know. Yeah,

348
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:42,960
Speaker 1: but so it's interesting. Is this what I was talking

349
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,720
Speaker 1: is he does get into a lot of Actually he

350
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,960
Speaker 1: does reference a lot of real history, like that US

351
00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,800
Speaker 1: versus Miller is that Supreme Court case, and in that

352
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,240
Speaker 1: that moon that that bootlegger had a shotgun that was

353
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,119
Speaker 1: below legal length I believe or something like that. Neither

354
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,200
Speaker 1: of them showed. But the court ruled in an interesting

355
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,080
Speaker 1: way that the gun that they were persecuting him for

356
00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,680
Speaker 1: wasn't useful as a militia weapon, therefore it didn't apply. Ah,

357
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,919
Speaker 1: so this is like the start of kind of the probe.

358
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,439
Speaker 1: That's that's where is that where the law against like

359
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,920
Speaker 1: short barreled shotguns came. We're talking about the n f

360
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,199
Speaker 1: A and shotguns. But the moonshiner had a shotgun that

361
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,919
Speaker 1: was I believe was below legal length, and that's what

362
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,360
Speaker 1: this was about. But then when the court ruled against him,

363
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,560
Speaker 1: they didn't rule against him because of they ruled that

364
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,119
Speaker 1: the shotgun really wasn't viable for militia use, Which that

365
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,040
Speaker 1: opens up a weird door about does that mean specifically

366
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,359
Speaker 1: that the that the Second Amendment applies only to guns

367
00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 1: that are for militia martial use, like an r fIF

368
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,040
Speaker 1: team for example. That's where you see this stuff and

369
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,880
Speaker 1: these arguments come out of. That's interesting because with DC

370
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,760
Speaker 1: versus Heller, like there's this kind of understanding. The current

371
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,960
Speaker 1: Supreme Court understanding is that the Second Amenment does protect

372
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,399
Speaker 1: an individual right to bear arms. And it seems like

373
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,000
Speaker 1: in thirty eight they were saying that, like, this gun

374
00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,240
Speaker 1: is illegal because it is not something that would be

375
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,119
Speaker 1: useful as part of a militia. And so were we like,

376
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 1: the individual does not have a right just to bear

377
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,160
Speaker 1: arms for individual purposes, So then isn't legal if it's

378
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,960
Speaker 1: not useful in a militia. So reading this, it says

379
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,200
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court hinted that individual right might exist in

380
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,919
Speaker 1: the concust of a common obligation to possess arms and

381
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 1: to cooperate in the work of defense, and that a

382
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 1: sought off shotgun the fire issue in this case, was

383
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,440
Speaker 1: not protective because it had no reasonable relationship to the preservations, preservation,

384
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,359
Speaker 1: or efficiency of a well regulated militia. Now that's a

385
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,040
Speaker 1: fascinating ruling because I think basically everyone today would be

386
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 1: angry at it, Like if you're pro gun control, then

387
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 1: you're going to be angry that it's basically saying, like, well,

388
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,720
Speaker 1: weapons that are useful in terms of like fighting in

389
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,160
Speaker 1: part of a militia are legal, like an a R fifteen,

390
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,480
Speaker 1: but like which I think pro gun control people generally

391
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 1: disagree with. And if your pro gun rights, you're like, well,

392
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,200
Speaker 1: why why would I be able to have an a

393
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 1: R fifteen but not a much less deadly weapon as

394
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,200
Speaker 1: sought off shotgun? That's like way less effective at killing people.

395
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,000
Speaker 1: That doesn't make any sense either. It's a like it

396
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 1: is a pretty nonsensical ruling, I think by most standards.

397
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 1: I know there's more wrapped up in that, because I

398
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 1: think there was a lot of fear over specifically sought

399
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 1: off shotguns as a result of like the bootlegging era, right,

400
00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,680
Speaker 1: because that was like a famous crime gun um, even

401
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,359
Speaker 1: though they're not not any deadlier than a lot of

402
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,679
Speaker 1: other weapons that people had easy access to, like a

403
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: Thompson or something which would have been pretty widely available

404
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,639
Speaker 1: in the mid thirties, although that was regulated by the

405
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,879
Speaker 1: n f A too. Speaking of being regulated by the

406
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,919
Speaker 1: n f A, it's time for adverbs. Yeah, you know

407
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 1: who's not regulated by the n f A is our

408
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 1: sponsor the mac ten um. If you want, if you

409
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 1: want a gun that will you can make out of

410
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,320
Speaker 1: a single stamped piece of metal. That's that's gonna be

411
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 1: one of your better options. And they're super for a

412
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,760
Speaker 1: gunfight on a phone booth. Oh my god. Yeah, good

413
00:20:54,640 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 1: to know. I'm thinking back. We're back from ads. I'm

414
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 1: thinking of my favorite movie gunfights. Have you ever seen

415
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 1: the movie? Uh? Gross, point blank, Carl, No, I actually

416
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 1: have it. Oh, it's got maybe the least accurate gunfight

417
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: where like, uh, what's his fucking name? Um, let's just

418
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:24,120
Speaker 1: go with John Ritterter it he looks like John ridder Um,

419
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 1: John Cusack, it was. It's one of the John's. John

420
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,439
Speaker 1: Cusack is in like a gunfight in a seven eleven

421
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,880
Speaker 1: and he's taking he's he's he's dual wielding blocks which

422
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 1: he's firing blindly and taking cover behind the chip aisle

423
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 1: at a seven eleven, which provides excellent cover, can stand

424
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 1: goun rounds. It's one of my favorite movie gunfights. Um okay,

425
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 1: So started the book December eleventh, nineteen o six. Um, alright,

426
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: so we're we're starting with two guys firing there. Boy,

427
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: there's just a lot of I think one of the

428
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 1: reasons this is so popular is this is a lot

429
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 1: of just very technical gun stuff. Like the opening of

430
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: this chapter is him walking through like firing tens of

431
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: thousands of rounds with a Winchester Model nineteen o three, um,

432
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: which was an old twenty two semi automatic rifle. And

433
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: it's just kind of like discussing how the firearm works

434
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 1: and how the rules regarding like this early gun sport worked. Um,

435
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: which is a thing I think that if you're buying

436
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 1: this book at a gun store, you're probably interested in,

437
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 1: and but not a thing I think most readers are

438
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: going to be interested in. So so we're going to

439
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:36,199
Speaker 1: skip ahead just a little bit here. Um. Yeah, this

440
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 1: is just a lot of oh wow, And now there's

441
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 1: a picture of a guy on top of a mountain

442
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 1: of are those skulls? Show us? Show us, show us.

443
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: I want to see standing here. I'm sad that we

444
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: can't see what you're seeing. Oh no, these are target blocks. Yeah.

445
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's he's yeah, it's just kind of

446
00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: uh nerdy gun stuff, like he's he's explained in the

447
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: like this guy, I'll read you a representative paragraph and

448
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 1: the San Antonio Fairgrounds closed in December fifteenth, nineteen o six.

449
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: Add topper Wine using three Semiato Winchester nineteen o three

450
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: rifles had shot seventy two thousand, five hundred wooden blocks

451
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: thrown in the air. He had missed nine. More than

452
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: a half century later, another man employed by Remington would

453
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 1: hit over a hundred thousand. His throwers, however, would stand

454
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: by his left shoulder and gently tossed the blocks straight

455
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: out along the same path the bullet would take. Tops

456
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: records shot under the rules laid out by another man

457
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,679
Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century would never be broken. In nineteen

458
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 1: o six, skilled riflemen were universally admired. People like ad

459
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 1: and Plinky topper Wine spent much of their time urging

460
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: young boys and girls to earn gun safety and hone

461
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: their shooting skills. Um, okay, so he's talking about the

462
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 1: birth of the gun culture here. That's that's actually quite nice.

463
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 1: I was worried at first that this was because this

464
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 1: bears a resemblance to some of the photos you would

465
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: see of like frontier men standing on top of like

466
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: buffalo skulls. But it's just a guy standing on top

467
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: of a bunch of like blocks that he shot during

468
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: some time, a type of old timey shoot contest. Yeah,

469
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 1: we're going back to like the shooting these wooden blocks,

470
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,239
Speaker 1: and then like Annie Oakley would shoot glass balls and

471
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: it was exhibition shooting, which was almost explicitly done with

472
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: twenty two rifles and it was kind of a cool

473
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: thing and people really did exhibit some amazing skills. Yeah,

474
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: and the next chapter is nineteen eighteen, and we're still

475
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: going into like the birth of gun culture. So he's

476
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: he's kind of framing like the idea of shooting sports

477
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 1: as a character in this book. Um, again, I get

478
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: why this is is popular among the specific people it is.

479
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: We're not It's not like the Turner Diaries where we

480
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: jump right into there's a civil war and like here's

481
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: my here's my like racist theories about whatever. Like we're

482
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: we're really talking kind of at length about the birth

483
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: of gun culture, um, the creation of the maximum gun,

484
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: but kind of stuff we talked about in our in

485
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: our Behind the Bastards episodes. Um. Now, I think this

486
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: is probably maybe not the best narratively to start with

487
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: you to start your fiction novel with a very long

488
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: but it does kind of, you know, it reminds me

489
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of is like um, Michael Crichton, where

490
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 1: you've got these like books that have this this like

491
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: science fiction or whateverything. But the first like thirty pages

492
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: is him like vamping about chaos theory or whatever kind

493
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: of mathematical thing he's interested in instead of nature finding

494
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: the way, guns will find the way, peace will find

495
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: the way. Yeah. Yeah, But I think in nineteen eighteen

496
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: there and nineteen was at nineteen nineteen he gets into

497
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: like this is this book is really a difficult thing

498
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: to discuss because it's hard. It's so it's a bit schizophrenic, right,

499
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: There's this narrative in there of this revolt, but there's

500
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: a lot of actual real history in there. He gets

501
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: into the Bonus Marchers, which was a pretty fucked up thing, honestly,

502
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 1: and he pretty act July sixteenth, nineteen thirty two, we

503
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: get Smedley Butler as a character. Um. So yeah, and

504
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: he's talking about the Bonus Marchers here. Um. Although I

505
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: think it's interesting like the pieces of Smedley story that

506
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: he does take out here, Like the opening quote he

507
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,959
Speaker 1: gives from Smedley here is take it from me. This

508
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 1: is the greatest demonstration of Americanism we've have or had.

509
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 1: Pure Americanism will need to take this beating as you've

510
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: taken at stand right and steady, you keep every law,

511
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: and why in the hell shouldn't you, Who in the

512
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 1: hell has done all the bleeding for this country and

513
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: this law and this constitution anyhow, but you fellows, which

514
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: is it's interesting because the thing they're taking, and this

515
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: is the period where for people who aren't aware, you've

516
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 1: got these World War One veterans when the economy collapses,

517
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: who are are owed a bonus that's being paid out

518
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: over a very long period of time, and because everyone

519
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: is in dire financial straits, they're like, we want the

520
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: money now. Can we just get the money that's owed

521
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: to us now? When they have a big march on

522
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 1: d c Um which is cracked down on via Douglas

523
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: MacArthur using tanks um and before it is cracked down

524
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: on Smedley Butler, who is, like I think still to

525
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: this day, the most highly decorated marine in history. He's

526
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: certainly like in the running for it. He had two

527
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: medals of honor um, which he had very mixed opinions of,

528
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: but he definitely earned them um. And he's he shows

529
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: up to like speak in defense of these men and

530
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: support their cause. And it's interesting because they're they're kind

531
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,120
Speaker 1: of framing what Smedley is doing here is a defense

532
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: of kind of this idea you see Robert Heinlin talk

533
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: about a lot um. This is kind of the thing

534
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: that's come down to us and Starship Troopers. But it's

535
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: something Heinland played with a lot that, like, uh, this

536
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: idea of like the citizens soldier being the ideal kind

537
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: of building block of a free society. And I don't

538
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 1: think that's actually what Butler believed, obviously, because by the

539
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 1: end of his life, Butler had come around very much

540
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: against militarism and like I was saying things that like

541
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: I believe I've only ever been a gangster for capitalism.

542
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: So it's interesting that they've picked this specific time to

543
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: kind of hone in on Smedley Butler and and turn

544
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: him into a character in this book. Um, because I'll

545
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 1: check here, but I'm not sure if I think we're

546
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 1: going to get Butler stopping the business plot. Um. But

547
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: that said, this is a really valid piece of history.

548
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: And this is one of those things when we talk

549
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: about like areas where I think it's possible to get

550
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: people on the right kind of in line with some

551
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: of the things I believe. I think it's really useful

552
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: to talk about history, about things like the Bonus Marchers,

553
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: where it's like, well, you can't really trust the government

554
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: and when it comes down to who's going to violently

555
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: crack down on people standing in favor of their liberty,

556
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: Maybe it's these these police forces that you're continually trying

557
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: to like fund an arm heavily, and perhaps this is

558
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: a place where we could come together and discuss some

559
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: shared interests. Gee whiz, guys, maybe if we actually looked this,

560
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: you know, with clear eyes, we'd realize we kind of

561
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: had a mutual problem here, regardless of our particular peculiarities

562
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: as to why so we introduced this character, um cam

563
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: who's this veteran um and who's about to We're told

564
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: at the end of page twenty six cam Bowman did

565
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: not know that the government had its own agenda concerning

566
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: the Bonus Army. Cam Bowman had less than three weeks

567
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: left to live, and then in the next chapter we

568
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: have him getting more murder along with everybody else by

569
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: Um General Douglas MacArthur. Um. The soldiers had been instructed

570
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: by their commander to clear the bonus marchers out of

571
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: the area by striking them with the flats of their

572
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: sabers blades, not the cutting edge. And this was what

573
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: the cavalrymen did. It was like being struck by a

574
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: three foot steel bar, and Lieutenant Cameron Bowman's left wrist

575
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: was shattered like kindling. He did not cry out or

576
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: fall down. But when Bowman saw the soldier prepared to

577
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: deliver a second blow, he finally accepted his fate and

578
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: gave ground. As he made his way to the bridge,

579
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: his ruined wrist beginning to scream an agony, Bowman saw

580
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: three men leading the army troops, and he was stunned

581
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: by what he saw. He did not recognize the two

582
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: army majors, who would both later come to prominence. The

583
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: man in charge of leading the infantrymen, Cavalry and Tank Division, however,

584
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: was impossible to miss. The lesser ranked soldiers were Major

585
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: George S. Patton and Major Dwight D. Eisenhower. The senior

586
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: officer was the Chief of Staff of the United States

587
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: Armed Forces, General Douglas Smith MacArthur. And this is interesting, um,

588
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: because that's very accurate, that that's completely true. Um, it's

589
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: neat because these guys, all these these these figures, both

590
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: of whom would become generals, are all of whom would

591
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: be general. I mean MacArthur was a general when this happened.

592
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: Patton and obviously Dwight Eisenhower are going to be generals

593
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: very quickly, um in World War Two. And they are both,

594
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: I think today, broadly speaking, heroic figures for conservatives, UM,

595
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: particularly pattent. Eisenhower interestingly has a really mixed history there because, um,

596
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, he he's who the John Birch Society focuses

597
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: on him as like a secret communist. So there is

598
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: this longstanding distrust of Eisenhower on the far right. But

599
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: MacArthur becomes a major far right figure, um, especially after

600
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: he gets fired by Truman during the Korean War. UM.

601
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: He's a big part of We just had an episode

602
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: on kind of some of the early like Christian conservative

603
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: movements in the United States and like the reforming of

604
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: the idea of the Fourth of July. He's a big

605
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: part of this. UM. So it's interesting to me that

606
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: Ross is kind of emphasizing his role here, which which

607
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: is a big one, UM, because I don't think that's

608
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: done a lot in uh, in conservative sort of uh

609
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: like far right propaganda these days, MacArthur because he was

610
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: such an anti communist, tends to be heralded. So at

611
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: least this guy so far seems to be pretty consistent. Yeah,

612
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: I don't know that how how that would have been

613
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: received now versus when it was actually published initially, Right,

614
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: we have a pretty different world from then. But it

615
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: is interesting to note that. Um, I don't know about

616
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: John Ross's thoughts on workers rights, but he's certainly concerned

617
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: with veterans rights because these Bonus Marchers is one of

618
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: the arguments he uses to portray the government is becoming

619
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: an authoritarian regime that doesn't seem to care about its people,

620
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: including its own veterans, and he uses the Bonus marchers

621
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: as or the breaking of the Bonus March as one

622
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: of those examples. And it's really compelling to me because

623
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: obviously that is a really valid point. The breaking of

624
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: the Bonus Army is totally an example of the government

625
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: becoming like doing an unhinged authoritarian thing. But he it's

626
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: also a choice, and John Ross, I feel like, just

627
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: based on what I'm reading here, knows too much history

628
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: for this not to have been a choice to not

629
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: discuss any other aspects of Butler's career or the business plot,

630
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: or kind of the elements of this that are the

631
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: government tilting its hand on the scale in favor of capital. Um.

632
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: And I think that's because obviously John Ross has his

633
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: own biases here. He's worried about communism. I I it's

634
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: fascinating to me that he seems to be tying the

635
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: destruction of the Bonus Army, the massacre of these soldiers

636
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: in with like the creeping socialism in the government, because

637
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: I I really don't see it that way. Um. And

638
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: I'm sure MacArthur wouldn't have seen it that way. Um.

639
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: But also I have to I have to respect the

640
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: fact that he is very astutely identifying MacArthur is like

641
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: part of the problem here. That's really interesting to me. Yeah.

642
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: And this is like the first example in the book.

643
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: And he goes through and I and each and every

644
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: one of these, like I said, he'll he'll get to

645
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: Ruby Ridge, you get to Waco, and he uses these

646
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: as an argument that slowly builds up to the culmination

647
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: of this this rebellion that that Henry Bowman actually engages in. Yeah.

648
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: I think part of what's fascinating to me about this

649
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: is it is I don't think John Ross and I

650
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: have a lot in common, and I don't think we

651
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: would agree on a lot. But up to this point

652
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: he's he's not wrong. I would argue that, like his

653
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: analysis of the building problems of authoritarianism in the U. S.

654
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: Government are incomplete, and he's leaving out some really important moments,

655
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: but he's not all. He's also not wrong. And I

656
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: have not noticed any like you know, uh, any racism

657
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: here so far, and I have not noticed. Um, he's

658
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: not inventing things out of whole cloth, which is like

659
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: what you see in the Turner Diaries, right. And I'm

660
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: not comparing these two because they're super similar. For one thing,

661
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: this is objectively a better written book, um. And for

662
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: another thing, the Turner Diaries, by page twenty eight you

663
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: have ingested enough racism to kill a large dog. And

664
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: we haven't really seen any yet out of this. So no,

665
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: I know, and I've been a long time since I've

666
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: read this, so I don't want to speak to the

667
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: nuance that might be in there. Of course, So this

668
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: is not a this is not a promotion for this,

669
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: but but like there's a. I found a interview with

670
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: John Ross later in which apparently Timothy McVeigh, of course

671
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 1: the bomber of Oklahoma City, said that he was inspired

672
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: by the Turner Diaries and Turner Diaries. It's a terrible, vitriolic, racist,

673
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: Nazi book. It is unreadable if you are not like

674
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: studying it as an academic or a Nazi. And Timothy

675
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: McVeigh said that if he had read Unattended Consequences, it

676
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: might have changed his approach to the problem. And that's

677
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: an interesting thing. So we have these people that of

678
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: course been become I don't know how to put it.

679
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: They got pushed further down the path of extreme, extreme

680
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 1: beliefs by things like the Turner Diaries. And it's weird

681
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: that Timothy McVeigh kind of argued that the Unattended Consequences

682
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: might have actually tempered him, which is a strange thing

683
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 1: to think, because this book is a revolutionary kind of book.

684
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: And I've come across that too, and I've always wondered

685
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: did McVeigh mean he might not have carried out an attack,

686
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: or that maybe he would have liked gone because like

687
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: the stuff Bowman does, the Turner Diaries obviously, like the

688
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: thing that inspired McVeigh as they blow up, I think

689
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: it it's literally the Pentagon or in its FBI headquarters.

690
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: They said, I like a big bomb and FBI headquarters,

691
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: which was was something he considered, and he picked the target.

692
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: He did the more about building an Oklahoma city because

693
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: it had a large FBI presence and that was really

694
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: who he was targeting as a result of Waco, although

695
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 1: he was obviously fine with the fact that it blew

696
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,720
Speaker 1: up like a daycare and a bunch of other things besides. Um.

697
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: But I wonder if he's saying, I don't know that

698
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: maybe I would have liked organized with people as opposed

699
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: to like carrying out a bombing or is he saying

700
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: perhaps I would have liked done what Bowman does and

701
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: carried out like a series of armed attacks specifically on

702
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: federal agents, as opposed to like a bombing campaign that

703
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: was much less discriminate. Um. Like, I'm not sure McVeigh

704
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: saying I wouldn't have done a violent thing if I

705
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: had read this book. But it's also probably if if

706
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: he had patterned his attack off the kind of attacks

707
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: you see an undetendent consequences, probably wouldn't have blown up

708
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: a daycare. I think, Yeah, I agree, I'm not I'm

709
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: not trying to say that. I'm not trying to say

710
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: that this book would have turned Timothy McVeigh into putting

711
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: flowers into rifle bags, right, but but but it's it's

712
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: a it's an unclear quote. But it's an interesting thing

713
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: to note. Yeah, I'm not trying to like make a

714
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: broad moral point about like, well, it would have been

715
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: better if he'd been radicalized into just shooting some FEDS

716
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 1: is supposed to blowing up, Like I'm not. I'm really

717
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: not trying to get into the weeds there. But I

718
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: think if you are interested in like radicalism and what

719
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: causes people to do stuff like that, I don't think

720
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: I I think there might be a tendency to just

721
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: discount what the vey is saying. And I don't know

722
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: that we should because I think it is interesting that

723
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: like when different media radicalizes people, it radicalizes them to

724
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: take different actions. And that's not Um, this is not

725
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: the kind of like thought I would blast out on

726
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: Twitter because it's difficult to get out in two characters

727
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: and it's gonna seem like you're saying something different than

728
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: what you are. But I don't think that's not a

729
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: thing we should think about and study. Perhaps is where

730
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like art is an interesting thing, and

731
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: books are an interesting and fiction is an interesting thing.

732
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I think one of the most inspirational books

733
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: that the Uni bomb are referenced was by all Gore,

734
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: right right, Um. And Timothy McVeigh, just to go back

735
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 1: to him, was also heavily influenced by fucking Star Trek.

736
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: He was a huge fan of Star Trek and of

737
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: Star Wars. UM and so yeah, I mean, it's it's

738
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: just interesting to see that. And it's interesting, like the

739
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: different kind of because both Um Pierce, the author of

740
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: the Turner Diaries, and Ross, you can see broad similarities

741
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: in that they are both people who advocate for an

742
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: armed overthrow of the government. Now they're both arguing that

743
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: for different things, and I think they both see a

744
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: different world as desirable as a result of that. Um.

745
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: But it is compelling if you're someone who kind of

746
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: studies radicalization to see the different ways they go about it.

747
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: And Ross is really building a much slower case that

748
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 1: is based on real history about the necessity of a

749
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: revolt against the government. UM. And I think it's important

750
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: that we're like noting the things that he's leaving out.

751
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: But the choices he's making here are really interesting. And

752
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: you know who else makes interesting choices, Carl Monsanto? They

753
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: absolutely so. Carl. Have you ever been driving through like

754
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 1: a rural part of the country, seeing like beautiful fields

755
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 1: with corn and other crops, and going I wish those

756
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: farmers would get thrown in prison if the wind happened

757
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: to carry seeds from one field to the other that

758
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: didn't have the legal right to use those specific patented,

759
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: genetically modified seeds. Have you been thinking that, like just

760
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: driving through the country side, I really have. I really

761
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: think that all the food we eat needs more DRM

762
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: around it. Absolutely. That's the problem with food is that

763
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: it doesn't have digital rights management. And that's the beautiful

764
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: dream of Monsanto digital rights management for everything. Um I

765
00:38:52,480 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: I think that's a beautiful dream. Let's let's hear these ads. Ah,

766
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: we're back. So you're at him on Santo kick these days? Carl, Yeah,

767
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of it. You know, ready, round

768
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: up is pretty good on a salad. I do, I do?

769
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: Who was that was that the Monsanto guy that like

770
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: someone tried to get him to like drink weed killer

771
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: because that sounds vaguely familiar. It's so safe. Let me

772
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: chug this. Yeah, yeah, nothing like a Monsanto bong on

773
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: a Saturday night. Oh my gosh, that that does sound

774
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: fun because then also you know you're killing whatever insects

775
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: are on your weed. Nice and safe. Um all right,

776
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: So Carl, page twenty nine. We we are about what

777
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: there's so much history here. So we're nineteen thirty six now. Um,

778
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: we're talking to a woman named Zophia, who I am

779
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,959
Speaker 1: guessing here is some sort of refugee from the bad

780
00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: things that are happening in Europe. Um hm, yep, okay, yep,

781
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: that seems to be what's happening here. All right. So

782
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: we've got this lady talking with her mom, YadA, YadA, YadA. Um, oh,

783
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: I think we're okay. So she yeah, this is this

784
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: is uh, I think setting up one of our characters. Yeah,

785
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: she's marrying some guy named Irwin man Um who's also

786
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: a Jewish refugee, which is again, so that's a nice

787
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: bit of change from the Turner Diaries. It does seem

788
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: like a number of our heroes are going to be

789
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: Jewish people. So that's yeah, this speaking. This is one

790
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 1: of the character here. This is this character becomes, if

791
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: I recall correctly, one of the fighters in the war

792
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: saw got to uprising. And so he's using this character

793
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: to demonstrate the ability of the individual to fight the

794
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 1: government with small arms. Gotcha, Okay, well that makes sense. Um.

795
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,959
Speaker 1: So nineteen thirty eight, we've got a treasury agent hiding

796
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 1: in the woods. Oh I think this is him writing

797
00:40:52,400 --> 00:41:00,720
Speaker 1: out the arrest of that moonshiner. Is that what's coming here? Yeah? Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Okay, cool, Um,

798
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: So that's fine. Um, let's you know, that's that's an

799
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: interesting note. I mean, I wouldn't say that you should

800
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: read this book like a history book, because that would

801
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: be that would be wildly inappropriate. However, if you wanted

802
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: to get like a basic bullet point timeline of things

803
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: that would be worth further investigation, this book is full

804
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff to like

805
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: look into here. And again it's it's there's he's making

806
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: a very specific ideological case. So it's incomplete, as we

807
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: noted with like Smedley Butler, um, and probably incomplete as

808
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: we're talking about like gun control and prohibition, because he's

809
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: really focused on this thirty eight case, um, which is

810
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 1: kind of late in the history of like arms regular

811
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: like thirty four is when we get the n f A.

812
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: So it's interesting to me that he's not kind of

813
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: focusing on any I mean, I it makes sense based

814
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: on kind of the ruling here, but it is interesting

815
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: that that's kind of that seems to be where he's

816
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: starting in terms of gun control regulations as opposed to

817
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,439
Speaker 1: going in anywhere earlier. Yeah, the watershed out of gun

818
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: controls considered nineteen thirty four, and then the second, the

819
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 1: second strike to the core or the heart of that

820
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 1: is the nineteen Gun Control Act, both of which are

821
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,399
Speaker 1: heavily discussed in the book. Yeah, And I suspect he's

822
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 1: kind of going for this moment in thirty eight because

823
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: it's a little easier to to build sympathy for the

824
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: audience for this like small scale bootlegger rather than like

825
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 1: the thirty four gun control in thirty four was heavily

826
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: driven by you have like this this soaring rate of

827
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: organized crime, and you have like these really horrible murders

828
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: in the street. And uh, I think it's probably he's

829
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: probably making a choice as a writer here that like, well,

830
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to put in a lot more legwork

831
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: to get people on to to get people seeing the

832
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: government as the clear bad guy in that one than

833
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 1: I am. If I focus on this like small moonshiner,

834
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: who's got this sought off shotgun? And it makes this

835
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: easy case that like they're they're kind of making this

836
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: this ruling that I can claim is where like all

837
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: of this illegitimate stuff is descended from like he's making

838
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: he's giving you a very incomplete look at the history,

839
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: but he's making what I think is a pretty smart

840
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: editorial choice by face. He definitely was strategic and what

841
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: he did with that. And it is also interesting to

842
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: note that people that don't know this in the audience,

843
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: UM uh n f A. The National Firearms Act, which

844
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: was to regulate machine guns, short barreled rifle, shortbeled shotguns, suppressors.

845
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: UM isn't actually a gun law. It's a tax law.

846
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: It's actually done through the it's right and so it's UM.

847
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: What they do is they don't make it impossible to

848
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 1: own these things. But they regulated as a tax stamp,

849
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: which the time was two and was cost prohibited was

850
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: actually more than the value of the gun. But now

851
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 1: that we come to the future, you can't make more

852
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 1: machine guns, but you can still buy them, but it's

853
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: still the same two tax But it's very interesting that

854
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: it's a tax law not really unnecessarily a gun law. Yeah. Yeah,

855
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: that's really compelling. And again this is something that he's

856
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: kind of like skipping entirely over um And what he

857
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: does here in the next couple of chapters is interesting.

858
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: So after we're introduced to like these these moonshine owners

859
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: and we get like the start of the arrest that

860
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 1: leads to their case, we have a chapter uh that's

861
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: November nine, nineteen thirty eight in Germany where they're sending

862
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of like we focus in on a Jewish family,

863
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 1: um and who they are sending to Dakow. Right, So

864
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 1: we've got like the Nazi sending guy to dak How

865
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 1: we get one page of that and then so that's

866
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 1: a one page chapter that literally um it ends with

867
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: the line he was going to dokaw um and it's

868
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: talking about like, okay, I'll read the last two lines

869
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,479
Speaker 1: here the watchmakers share to fate with almost a quarter

870
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 1: million of his countrymen and every single one of his

871
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: relatives who was still in Germany as of November nine

872
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: night he was going to Dakow. And then the very

873
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: next chapter, after that one page chapter, we get a

874
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: district like the basically the minutes of a district court

875
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: meeting for this case United States versus Miller involving this bootlegger.

876
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: So he's really very kind of directly making a comparison

877
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: between the Nazis shipping people off to concentration camps and

878
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: this bootlegger going to court over an a legal short

879
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,959
Speaker 1: barreled shotgun, which is definitely like, this is the most

880
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: problematic the book has gotten so far, at least since

881
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: they're over our reading of it um and you can

882
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: see what he's doing here, right, Like, this is not

883
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 1: particularly subtle, although it does, I think count is subtle

884
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: within this genre of literature. Yeah, he's setting up the

885
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 1: argument that gun control lends itself to what we saw

886
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: a Nazi Germany, which is general side, etcetera, which he's

887
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: drawing a direct comparison between the agents of the state

888
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: in both countries. And of course it's a much more

889
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: complex argument to that, but there is some historicity to

890
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: gun control leading itsself to that too. So he's not

891
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: entirely wrong, right, because a lot of earlier and this

892
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: it's interesting to me again in terms of like the

893
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: thing he thinks he does choose to read out this

894
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: is not so far an explicitly racist novel, But he's

895
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: making the choice to not lead at all with the

896
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: history of gun control as it involves the suppression of

897
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 1: black people's right to carry concealed handguns, which is a

898
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: big part of early laws against concealed handgun was to

899
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: stop black men in the reconstruction area from carrying concealed handguns,

900
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: which they did because people would try to murder them. Um.

901
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: And he's he's definitely leaving that out. He's also we

902
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: just did an episode on this with Margaret Killjoy leaving

903
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 1: out a decent chunk of like there were a number

904
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: of some of the first gun control laws in the

905
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: country were also passed in order to stop anarchists from

906
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: carrying handguns and as part of the labor movement. Um.

907
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: And so we're not really getting any of that. We are,

908
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: really he is making a really pointed choice by focusing

909
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: on Miller in nineteen thirty eight as kind of the

910
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 1: birth of all this gun control um. And that's interesting

911
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: to me because it does this is kind of We've

912
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: talked about how careful he's being, and he this is

913
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: a very careful book so far. He is not. It

914
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: is not like an unhinged screen at all, and it

915
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: does not read that way. Um. But he is making

916
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 1: some really distinct editorial choices about what he leaves out,

917
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: and I think that's really worth kind of highlighting. Yeah.

918
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: I don't disagree, and I don't recall all of it,

919
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: but I don't recall this book really getting into issues

920
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: like the panthers or um or or civil rights in

921
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: regards to firearms in their use, which of course is

922
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: a topic that has been so left off of the

923
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: American historical record that it's been intentionally ignored. It's like

924
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: I call it um uh, intentional um amnesia, where we

925
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about those things where black people

926
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: use guns to defend themselves and the reason they still

927
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: exist is because they had a gun in their possession.

928
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: I don't remember that being in this book, and it

929
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: would It's interesting because that you're right, it lends It

930
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 1: would have lended itself even more credibility to his argument

931
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 1: if he had included it. Yeah, I mean it would

932
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: you you could have slotted that in here and it

933
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: would have like worked as part of the narrative progression

934
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: he's building. But I also think that would have really

935
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: turned off a decent chunk of who he knew was

936
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: kind of And it's also I'm sure this is this

937
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 1: is also based on like he didn't. I think it's

938
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: very possible Ross doesn't see that as part of really

939
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,879
Speaker 1: the history of of unfair gun control in the United States.

940
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: I don't know the man um so I don't know

941
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: the degree to which that was a choice or that

942
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: was just stuff he was unaware of. But he seems

943
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: so knowledgeable that I do have trouble imagining he wouldn't

944
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: at least know about like the panthers and stuff which

945
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: perhaps we haven't gotten to. But again I don't recall

946
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: from an earlier reading of that book, this book, I

947
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: don't recall that being a part of this. If it's

948
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: in there, it's not heavily profiled at all. And I

949
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 1: think I would be more along the lines of thinking

950
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 1: that he knew the audience he was targeting and did

951
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: not want to alienate them, And that's one of the

952
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: things we've talked about in previous work together, is like,

953
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: you know, the community and the gun community is getting

954
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: is getting much more uh as much as it's becoming

955
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: a much larger tent, but it's still a big uphill fight.

956
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 1: And um that that level of acceptance definitely did not

957
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: exist in when this book was published. So by including

958
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: things like that, I think he would have lost his

959
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: core targeted audience, which is why we see those five

960
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 1: star reviews on this book, because it's very specifically read

961
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: only by the people that are going to like it. Yeah,

962
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: and the next like forty or so pages of this

963
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: are really heavily dealing with Irwin Mann and the Warsaw

964
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: Ghetto uprising. We're we're getting into a lot of World

965
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: War two stuff and it's going to be in here

966
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: that um I think it's is Bowman's dad that gets

967
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: introduced as a World War two veteran, right, um, because

968
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 1: he's start he comes in here, yeah, Walter Bowman. Um. Yeah.

969
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: So so by page ninety three is kind of when

970
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: we're introduced to the Bowman family, who's going to be

971
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: our protagonist family, and he comes into the story at

972
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: at at right after uh, the end of kind of

973
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: our chunk on the warsaw Get Out Uprising, um where

974
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: we have so so May six, nineteen forty five is

975
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 1: when we kind of meet the family of the guy

976
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 1: who's going to be our main character. And I think

977
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,359
Speaker 1: we'll probably come back to that when we when we

978
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: deal with this again. But so that's that's the introduction

979
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: to this book is ninety two pages of what is

980
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: effectively like, um, the history of shooting sports and gun control.

981
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: Like this is a real slow burn of a starter,

982
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 1: UM And it's different from any other book with kind

983
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: of a broadly similar theme that I think I've gone through. UM.

984
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 1: I have to say it's probably one of the smarter

985
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: pieces of of of kind of right wing uh militant

986
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: like propaganda literature that I've seen. UM. And it is

987
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: something that if you're not of that ideology, there's even

988
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: aspects of this that you could enjoy, because there is

989
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: like quite a bit of history in here that that's interesting,

990
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 1: but as we've talked about, it's also very in complete history.

991
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: I do kind of find this fascinating in a way

992
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: that for example, Ben Shapiro isn't right, Like there's actually

993
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: a lot to say about this that's not mocking the writing.

994
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: In addition, like the writing is not it's not particularly

995
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 1: like inspired writing, Like I'm not going to call this guy. Uh,

996
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: this is not like a toured a force of narrative power. Um.

997
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: But it's not like there's nothing about it that's jumping

998
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: out to me is incompetent or bad at all. Like

999
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,919
Speaker 1: it's just like, I mean, it's definitely like a slow burn,

1000
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 1: but kind of in the same way. You know, I

1001
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: get shades of Tom Clancy from this actually, oh I

1002
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: would yeah. And and the writing is it's it is readable.

1003
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 1: It's um, I don't know how where would I put

1004
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: in terms of qualit like Tom clans is a good

1005
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: unc channel pros Yeah, kind of like Stephen King. It's

1006
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: it's it's it tells the story, but it's not necessarily Shakespeare.

1007
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, Like it's certainly not You're not like

1008
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: I can't think of any lines here that jumped out

1009
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,399
Speaker 1: to me is like particularly artful, but nothing like, you know,

1010
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 1: nothing that made it difficult to read. It's just kind of, um,

1011
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: it's if you're not interested in this history or in

1012
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,399
Speaker 1: the technical details. And this is something I know from

1013
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: the book. He really loves getting into the technical details

1014
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: about how all of his guns work and stuff, and um,

1015
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 1: even if you like in a way that's very Tom Clancy.

1016
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: So if that's your thing, you may find aspects of

1017
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: that compelling. I tend to think, even as someone who

1018
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 1: likes guns, that it can be a bit of a

1019
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: slog at times. Well, you mentioned what you were a

1020
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: page not D six when they just introduced his father.

1021
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: I think this book is like five thirty pages, so

1022
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 1: you're like, you're less than one fifth through the book

1023
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: and that's just beginning to introduce the main characters for

1024
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 1: the storyline. Yeah, so we'll we'll come back to this.

1025
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: But I think it is interesting to talk about how

1026
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: this guy chooses to introduce this book that has become

1027
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: so influential in US gun culture because it's it's it's

1028
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: a pretty He makes some pretty intelligent choices here, um

1029
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 1: that I think are going to be surprising to people,

1030
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 1: just based on the cover, which is not a subtle cover.

1031
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: You don't you didn't see You don't see this much anymore.

1032
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: But like in the in the early two thousand's, this

1033
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 1: book was influential enough that the at the Gun shows

1034
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 1: and on all a bunch of the cars at the

1035
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: gun show, you'd see stickers that said Henry Bowman as

1036
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: my President. Yeah. Yeah, and this book was a big deal. Yeah.

1037
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 1: And it makes it makes sense that it is because

1038
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: I think, number one, there's a lot of people who

1039
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 1: are going to be attracted to some of the ideas

1040
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: of like revolt against the government and like an armed

1041
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 1: in urgency and seeing themselves as as members of that obviously, UM,

1042
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: but aren't going to be drawn to the fact that

1043
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 1: the for example, the Turner Diaries is just a piece

1044
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 1: of genocidal propaganda and is very clearly that from the beginning, UM.

1045
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: And it it makes total sense to me that this

1046
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: book succeeded in drawing those people in and and providing

1047
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: them something to identify with, because I really do get

1048
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: why they find this to be an identifiable work. He

1049
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: does some very smart work early on to make this

1050
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: feel both intellectual to the kind of people who are

1051
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: going to be drawn to it, um, and to be

1052
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 1: to make it effectively radicalizing. I see why this is

1053
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 1: is so effective, um. To the people it was effective,

1054
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 1: And I see why a guy like McVeigh would read

1055
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,359
Speaker 1: this UM and even feel like, oh shit, I wish

1056
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 1: I had come across this first. Yeah, no doubt. It's um.

1057
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: It's uh. I think I said this earlier. It is um.

1058
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 1: It's an. It's an. It's a very hard book to

1059
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: put into a category because as as we were going

1060
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: through just these nineties pages or whatever, there's real history

1061
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: in there, and there are things that people may not

1062
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: have ever been aware of that this government has been

1063
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 1: culpable of and other governments have been culpable of that.

1064
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: He did his cherry picking on to make his argument,

1065
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: but by his cherry picking, um, it's not to say

1066
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: that the things that he particularly picked are not true narratives,

1067
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: like his discussion about the Bonus Marchers and later on

1068
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: in the book other topics are real accurate things. And um,

1069
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 1: a lot of that which I don't know if that's

1070
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: for now or some other day, but a lot of

1071
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,800
Speaker 1: this falls under the terrible, the terrible regime of Janet

1072
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: Reno and some of her actions, and a lot of

1073
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: that's in this book. Yeah. Yeah, And and Janet Reno

1074
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: definitely deserves to be a bad guy in your history books. Yeah, so,

1075
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 1: I mean, he really does demonize some people that deserved it.

1076
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: But you said it's not necessarily holistically inclusive, and that's

1077
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: what's challenging about it. That's the thing too, is like

1078
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 1: if you're um, if you're focusing on these people and

1079
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: these moments is like horrible moments in these people, is

1080
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: is in these trends as like negative, You're absolutely in

1081
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 1: the right. But also when you when you make that

1082
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: out to be the whole story, you're very clearly exercising

1083
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 1: chunks of history and particularly like chunks of um history

1084
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 1: of the oppression of black and Indigenous people that could

1085
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 1: be a part of your argument if they were if

1086
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: you were willing to include them as a part of

1087
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,359
Speaker 1: the aggrieved classes that you're speaking to. And I think

1088
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:32,359
Speaker 1: Ross clearly is not here. Um. But I you can

1089
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: see how people would find this appealing and also be like, well,

1090
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 1: I'm not a racist and and this isn't a racist book, um,

1091
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 1: And and yeah, it makes sense that this has had

1092
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:46,399
Speaker 1: the impact that it's had. Yeah, it's fascinating. I UM,

1093
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: I don't, UM, I don't know. I don't. I wonder

1094
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 1: what its repercussions are until now, because it's been out

1095
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 1: of print for a while, I don't know if it

1096
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 1: ever came back into reprint there was supposed to be

1097
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: a sequel. I don't think that ever came out. Um,

1098
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: there was never a really bad B grade version of it,

1099
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,320
Speaker 1: like Left Behind it with Kirk like Kirk Cameron and

1100
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 1: all that. There was never like there was never the

1101
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 1: Left Behind movie of Unintended Consequences, Right, But I feel like, um,

1102
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 1: I suspect that if that were, if that pump were

1103
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: to be primed, I bet it would be successful still

1104
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 1: to this day. Well, I think there is essentially a

1105
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: reboot of Unintended Consequences written by a guy named Matt

1106
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: Bracken who's a regular on Info Wars Enemies Foreign and Domestic.

1107
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with that? I've never read it? Yeah, um,

1108
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 1: it says, yeah, I have not read that one, but

1109
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 1: I know it. It's broadly speaking, kind of in the

1110
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 1: same narrative terrain that we've talked about, where there's like

1111
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:46,720
Speaker 1: this kind of insurgency, uh, an overthrow of the evil

1112
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 1: American police state that is, of course like a left

1113
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: wing police state. They see it as. Um, yeah, I'll

1114
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 1: read you the the Amazon for this. Bullets rained down

1115
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: upon a packed put football stadium, killing dozens, triggering a

1116
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 1: panic stampede, which leads to a thousand more deaths. A

1117
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 1: police marksman kills the sniper, a mentally unbalanced desert storm

1118
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: veteran holding a smoking assault rifle. It's an open and

1119
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: shut case, or so America is led to believe in

1120
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 1: the aftermath of the stadium massacre and outraged public demands

1121
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 1: and into the threat posed by assault rifle. So yeah,

1122
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: and then America passes gun control um and the yeah,

1123
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: it it leads to a crackdown that leads to an uprising. Right,

1124
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 1: that book was written before that event. But man, that

1125
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 1: is shades of Mandalay Bay, Las Vegas. And it's interesting

1126
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 1: because Bracken frames it in his book apparently as like, well,

1127
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: this is what leads to like this huge FBI cracked

1128
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: down of the militia, and it's unjust, and the militia

1129
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: has to find out the truth about this. What I'm

1130
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: guessing is like this shooting that was engineered in order

1131
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: to create gun control, when in reality we had an

1132
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 1: almost identical shooting and the result was was nothing like

1133
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: on a legislative level, I guess, I guess bump stocks. Yeah,

1134
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 1: I think I think it was. It was Trump made

1135
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 1: essentially a ruling that bump stops, but Eagle. But but

1136
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 1: there's no assault weapons ban, not not from that event. No,

1137
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: there wasn't. But it is interesting that all of these

1138
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: books hinge themselves, that that the fight for the fight

1139
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: against an authoritary and increasingly authoritarian American government is always

1140
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: hinged on the loss of gun rights versus some amalgamation

1141
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 1: of all sorts of horrible things that the government has done.

1142
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: It's always that one thing, it's always that single platform

1143
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: of it. It's the gun rights being lost that caused

1144
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: us to revolt, versus here's gun rights amongst many other

1145
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,479
Speaker 1: problems that cause a revolt. Like that's interesting to me. Yeah,

1146
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: they zero in so much and there's such certainty too.

1147
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 1: And you can even see this in like some of

1148
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 1: the Alex jones Um conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, where

1149
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 1: it's like just historically, looking at the last thirty years,

1150
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,479
Speaker 1: creating a false flag mash shooting is not a good

1151
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: way to get gun control, because most mash shootings have

1152
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 1: not resulted in gun control, right Yeah, I mean, I mean,

1153
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 1: I think you see Columbine as being the one that did,

1154
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:03,360
Speaker 1: right did, which absolutely like Columbine did where it comes from, right, Yeah,

1155
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: And so that the argument is that each and every

1156
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: and and and and and sadly, so many of those

1157
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: events have happened since Columbine, that each and everyone's going

1158
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 1: to be the one that does that. Um. Historically excellent,

1159
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: except for Columbine, that has not been the case. Yeah,

1160
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 1: it really. I mean there have been again some like

1161
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: state level laws that have been that have been come

1162
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 1: in the result of like mass shootings, but even that's

1163
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: not is not super common. Um. It is interesting that

1164
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 1: like that that's still such a focus. UM. I think

1165
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: there is probably you could probably make quite a good

1166
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: living if you were to rewrite a variation of this

1167
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: book that was a little bit smarter about your opening cause, um,

1168
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 1: and that that steered more towards trying to reach some

1169
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: of those people on the libertarian left as well as

1170
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 1: the libertarian right. You could probably make a pretty good

1171
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 1: living doing that. You might need to get better cover

1172
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: art too than than John Ross picked, although his cover

1173
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 1: art beats the hell out of Matt Brackens, which is

1174
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: like a really ay uh uh this you know, I

1175
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 1: kind of now I remember, I think I remember the

1176
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:08,439
Speaker 1: cover of that book. It's like it's like the don't

1177
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: tread on me snake with a naifteen or something, right, Yeah, yeah,

1178
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: it looks like it's like clip Yeah, it's clip art

1179
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: paste together. You know what it looks like. It looks

1180
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: what's the name of that that guy who was he

1181
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 1: was in congress? He was like a TV host and

1182
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 1: then he got in the Congress and then he had

1183
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: to leave because he's sexually harassed somebody. What's his name?

1184
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's so many of those, Um, what's

1185
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: what's his uh? Al something? You're talking about al Franken,

1186
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: al Franken the cover people, right, Yeah, he grouped that

1187
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 1: woman on that plane. Yeah. Yeah, it looks like the

1188
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: cover of Enemies for in a Domestic It's like this,

1189
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 1: this like lazy clip art of a snake cuddling a rifle.

1190
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 1: It looks like the cover of like a left wing

1191
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 1: book making fun of gun culture from like two thousand

1192
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,959
Speaker 1: and three. Like, it doesn't look like the kind of cover.

1193
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 1: The only thing that to make that cover are better

1194
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: or some googly eyes. Yeah, it's it's really a pretty

1195
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 1: lazy cover. Like I wouldn't guess it was a pro

1196
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 1: gun book by the cover art because it kind of

1197
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 1: looks like it's making fun of the Gadsden flag as

1198
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 1: opposed to an ironic, whereas, at least with Unintended Consequences,

1199
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 1: there was no mistaking what kind of like ideological world

1200
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: this book inhabits. So you said there was a sequel

1201
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 1: to this enemy's foreign and domestic. I think there's like

1202
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: five of them, Max, Oh my gosh, Um, I think

1203
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 1: there's a ton of these books. Um, Matt Bracken Mason, Yeah,

1204
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: there's at least so there's enemies foreign domestic. There's enemies

1205
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: foreign domestic, the ricon Qui stuff, which I think is

1206
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 1: about Mexicans taking over the Southwest. Uh, and then there's

1207
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 1: foreign enemies and traders. So he's got at least three

1208
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: of them. Yeah. Yeah, So this is the kind of

1209
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 1: stuff that would be so pervasive, and maybe it still

1210
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:51,919
Speaker 1: is in some instances. At the gun show we talked

1211
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 1: about at the beginning of this, I could walk in

1212
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: there and there was that giant book section and it

1213
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 1: was all sorts of this kind of stuff. And I

1214
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: guess the best thing you could say about Unintended Consequences

1215
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 1: is it was the best of its breed. It was

1216
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: the most readable, probably the least shitty, if you want

1217
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 1: to say, that of that stuff like, um, if I

1218
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 1: mean on one on one end, you got the Turner Diaries,

1219
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: which is like the most vile thing you can think of,

1220
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 1: and then you've got Unattended Consequences, which is much more nuanced.

1221
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 1: And then you had stuff like we're talking about now

1222
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle mostly poorly written quality of a zine,

1223
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 1: but Unintended Consequences had the polish of being a legitimate book. Yeah,

1224
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 1: I would say this is the gold standard of this

1225
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 1: kind of of this particular kind of narrative propaganda. Um.

1226
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,760
Speaker 1: It definitely seems to be, which which does not mean

1227
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: I think most people reading it are going to enjoy it,

1228
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: or that I think it's narratively a well constructed piece

1229
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 1: of fiction, because again we're ninety three pages in and

1230
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:47,439
Speaker 1: we have not really gotten to the narrative yet, which

1231
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: is a choice, um. But it's also kind of broadly

1232
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: in line with This is being written in the period

1233
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 1: when Michael Crichton is and um um uh Tom Clancy

1234
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 1: are like the biggest authors in the United States, and

1235
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 1: it does seem like very much in line with that. Um.

1236
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, you can't divorce it either from the time

1237
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: it was written in what was popular. Then well, Carl,

1238
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: I think that's gonna do us for for for at

1239
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 1: least the first episode on Undintended Unintended Consequences will well,

1240
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: will reconvene and see if we want to go more

1241
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 1: into this or maybe look at what a Matt Bracken's books. Um,

1242
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: I'm endlessly fascinated with this, this species of novel. There's

1243
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:29,120
Speaker 1: like eight hundred more pages of this book, Like literally,

1244
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 1: there's so many more pages of this, and Enemies Foreign

1245
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 1: Domestic is also five hundred and sixty eight pages. So

1246
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 1: we're delving into Jesus a lot. Well, I think, I think,

1247
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 1: I think that we only got this far into it

1248
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 1: does speak to the density of what it is and

1249
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 1: how complex a topic this book is. Like if you

1250
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 1: wanted to describe the if you wanted to talk the

1251
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: Turner Diaries, you could. You could summarize that in thirty seconds. Right,

1252
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't. It is not an intelligent work. Unintended Consequences is,

1253
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 1: and that's what makes it interesting because, Um, whether or

1254
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 1: not want to agree or disagree with any of the

1255
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 1: content in it, anyone reading it, even if you're against

1256
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 1: what it's about, will probably find something out in it

1257
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 1: that they didn't know about. And I'm not trying to

1258
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 1: promote anything. I'm just saying in that regard, it is

1259
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 1: an interesting work because I'm going from the Bonus Marchers

1260
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: to the Warsaw Ghetto to Ruby Ridge to Waco to

1261
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 1: all of those things combined. There's a lot of nuance

1262
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 1: and that like most people wouldn't you know about Us

1263
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 1: versus Miller, that that Supreme Court ruling about that sought

1264
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 1: off shotgun. There's all that's in there. And while it

1265
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 1: is cherry picked, is done in a way that it's

1266
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 1: there's there's there's content there above and beyond maybe it's

1267
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 1: intended point yeah, yeah, And and certainly like it's it's

1268
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 1: not a lazy example of what it is. It's it's

1269
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 1: an exact like he put a lot of work into this,

1270
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 1: and I think did so in a pretty intelligent way.

1271
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 1: And that's that's interesting to study, just as someone who's

1272
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 1: kind of um drawn into this this sort of thing

1273
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 1: and is interested in its impact on the world. Like um,

1274
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 1: it's it's meaningful and worth understanding that, Like he put

1275
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 1: the work he did into this and it's had the

1276
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: impact that it's had. Well, Carl, you want to plug

1277
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: your plug doubles before we roll out. Sure, um, you

1278
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:13,200
Speaker 1: can find me an range dot tv. I create a

1279
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 1: firearms history and other types of content. It's kind of

1280
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 1: all over the place, but it's all somehow Lynch pinned

1281
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 1: around the concept of firearms and and the history of

1282
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 1: firearms or the civil rights associated issues around them, including

1283
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 1: up until today. So if you want to check out

1284
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 1: my video and some of other stuff, you can find

1285
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 1: all of my distribution points at enranged dot tv. Yeah,

1286
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 1: check out Carl, check out in range TV. Probably don't

1287
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 1: check out Enemies Foreign and Domestic um. But you know

1288
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 1: you can get a lot of the same things by

1289
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 1: watching the documentary trimmers Um, which which is my manifestout.

1290
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that guy would have been a character

1291
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 1: in this book definitely. Bert Comer is a character that

1292
01:05:56,440 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: fell directly out of unintended consequences. It is worth it

1293
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: doesn't really stand out in the movie, but it is

1294
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 1: worth noting that he and his wife in thirty seconds

1295
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 1: go from huddling in their basement to making pipe bombs

1296
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 1: on the roof. Bert Comer has seven copies of Unintended Consequences,

1297
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 1: all of them signed, one of them with some DNA

1298
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 1: on it from John ross I guarantee you yeah this

1299
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:25,440
Speaker 1: maybe Bert Gummer's copy of Unintended Consequences. Um, all right,

1300
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 1: thank you. Carl. Behind the Bastards is a production of

1301
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more from cool zone Media, visit

1302
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 1: our website cool zone media dot com, or check us

1303
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 1: out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1304
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.