1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. You talk to any prosecutor 2 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: that's been doing it for a while, and some of 3 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: the most memorable moments that they have in court is 4 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: when they've completed a case and they've got a conviction 5 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: and they are on the other side of the room 6 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: stands the individual that has now been charged, prosecuted and 7 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: stands to pay the price for their misdeeds. And the 8 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: prosecutors will tell you it runs a gamut. You never 9 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: know how anybody is going to react on any particular 10 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: day to a sentence. But for us today, we're going 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: to talk about an individual who may have thought he 12 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: was cheating the hangman. Today we're going to talk about 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: the death of Edward Leclair that actually began at the 14 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: time of the sentencing in a Denton, Texas courtroom. I'm 15 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. For those of 16 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: you listening to my voice today, I have to just 17 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: remind you that if there is anyone either listening or 18 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: if you have a friend that is dealing with thoughts 19 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: of self harm suicide, there is help for you, and 20 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: that help can be found at the National Suicide Prevention 21 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: Lifeline and that number is one eight hundred two seventy 22 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: three eight two five five. That's eight hundred and two 23 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: seventy three. Talk t a l K. Joining me today 24 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: is my good buddy Dave mac Dave's crime reporter for 25 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: Crime Online. Dave, I got to tell you, sometimes a 26 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: bottle of water is as innocent as people might think. 27 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: When you told me about this story, my first thought was, 28 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 1: how in the world can you get anything into a courtroom. 29 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: In this particular case, Edward Leclair at fifty seven years old, 30 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: accused and on trial five counts of sexual abuse, and 31 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: he was out on bail, so he came in from 32 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: the outside. He was not in jail being led into court, 33 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: and so I thought he snuck it in that way. Nope, 34 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: he actually bought a bottle of water. Joe inside the courthouse. 35 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: They saw him on video seven am buying a bottle 36 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: of water out of the machine in there. That bottle 37 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: of water was just fine. He was able to go 38 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: through all the things one has to to go to 39 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: court and nobody found anything on him. Apparently. So we 40 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: find Edward Leclair waiting on the judge to read the 41 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: verdict from the jury. Three hours later, we have a verdict. 42 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: You have a well planned out thing for Edward Leclair. 43 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: You called it cheating the hangman. I thought how interesting 44 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: of a term that was. He was prepared for a 45 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: guilty verdict. Yeah, he's staring down the barrel of this thing. 46 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: He knows what's coming. The evidence that had been presented 47 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: was so incredibly overwhelming. Lawyers like to use the term 48 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: compelling when they're talking about things a relative to evidentiary value. 49 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: This evidence is so compelling that it causes you to 50 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: give pause and you can begin to see this thread 51 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: that runs through the entire prosecution. Here's what happened. Edward 52 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: Leclair met a girl online. At first, he didn't know 53 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: how old she was, but after they met up the 54 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: first time, he learned how old she was, and that 55 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: was fourteen. She told him she was fourteen. He continued 56 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: to come after this girl. Well, right there, you can't 57 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: say I didn't know how old she was because she 58 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: told you. And there is evidence. There's plenty of information online, texting, emails, pictures, 59 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: things like that. What this all exploded to was fifty 60 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: seven year old Edward Leclair as a girlfriend, Melody mel Shay, 61 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: she found out about this ongoing situation between Edward Leclaire 62 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: and a girl, and when Edward Leclair would not stop 63 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: what he was doing, she goes to the girls said 64 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: he is grooming you. When Edward Leclair didn't let up, 65 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: the girlfriend went to the victim's mother, which is how 66 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: all of this came about. And we ended up with 67 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: fifty seven year old Edward Leclair staring at up to 68 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: a one hundred years in prison. Yeah, and you think 69 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: about what could that possibly hold for him, because you know, 70 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: when he goes into the prison system, we've heard all 71 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: of the stories for all of the years about what 72 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: happens to people that abused children. Whether or not you 73 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: knew she was of age, the court is going to 74 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: hang that on you. That's going to be worn around 75 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: your neck for ever and ever. Amen. And you're talking 76 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: about one hundred years, and there's only so much isolation 77 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: in the prison system that they can do relative to 78 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: individuals that have been charged with crimes against children. And 79 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: this guy has got a background where he doesn't really 80 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,679 Speaker 1: have a criminal past that all. As a matter of fact, 81 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: he had been in the Navy, he had gotten out 82 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: and for years he had worked as an executive or 83 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: corporate recruiter and had a good career leading up to 84 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: this point in time, and then he makes this decision 85 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: you were mentioning he had an awareness after that first 86 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: time that he engaged with her where she told him 87 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: or revealed to him that she was fourteen. Now, I'm 88 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: not saying that he would have gotten out of this 89 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,799 Speaker 1: scott free had he ceased and desisted at that moment 90 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: time in the criminal activity, but the fact that he 91 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: continued with knowledge that he was committing a criminal act. 92 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: He continued to do this, and it's important for people 93 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: to understand for every time he engages in this behavior, 94 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: that's an individual count and anything that's associated with it. 95 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: You got everything from enticement to the actual act itself. 96 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: Each individual element of these crimes has distinct punishments that 97 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: come along with it, and so the entire time, you're 98 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: just piling more and more onto this thing, and he's 99 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: aware of it. It doesn't surprise me that he wanted 100 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: to get a bottle of water. You're nervous, and one 101 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: of the physiological reactions to being anxious and being on 102 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: edge is that you developed dry mouth. I don't think 103 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: that for the folks in the courtroom. It was necessarily 104 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: a surprise that he had a bottle of water. I 105 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: think even his defense attorney at some point in time 106 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: had commented on the fact that he was sweating and 107 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: that he had the bottle of water, and he suddenly 108 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: began to toss this thing back. The only problem is 109 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: that he didn't just simply take a sip. He took 110 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: the bottle and guzzled. It important to note that he 111 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 1: did that after the judge read guilty on the first charge. 112 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: Once he heard guilty on the first charge, that was 113 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: when the bottle tip came off and he tipped it back. 114 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: That's an awareness that you're staring into a very dark 115 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: chasm at that point in time, because you know this 116 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: is not going to get better. What's fascinating is that 117 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: he had exhibited no kind of disengagement during the trial. 118 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, his attorney, his counsel there 119 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: at the table with him, was saying that he was 120 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: fully engaged the entire time. He was taking notes, he 121 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: was asking questions, he was fully involved. He began to 122 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: understand the depth and breadth of everything that was involved. 123 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: Can you imagine sitting in that chair, you've committed these 124 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: acts and now they're kind of slow rolling this thing 125 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: out and before you every single act that you've been 126 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: engaged in with this minor child, and you're watching this 127 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: develop in front of you, and you can see it. 128 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: It's like a house fire that kind of sweeps through 129 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: your entire life and you see it just being burned 130 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: down to the ground. And many times in my experience 131 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: as a death investigator, this happens with people that do 132 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: finally wind up taking their lives. They have these things 133 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: that occur in their life that just push them to 134 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: the edge. And it's not necessarily every single time, it 135 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: is one single event. It is the culmination of everything 136 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: over a period of time. But I think that this 137 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: happened in a condensed version for him, and who knows, 138 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: maybe it started from the first time that he engaged 139 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: with this young girl, and maybe he was ridden with 140 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: guilt to begin with, and he just decided not to stop, 141 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: and it started all the way back there, and then finally, 142 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: in conclusion, he decides that he's going to take his life. 143 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: Being in court is kind of like it's very formal 144 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: for people that have never actually been in court, And 145 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: still to this day, if I have to go to 146 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: court as many times as I've done it over the 147 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: course of my career. It's intimidating, but how much more 148 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: so for somebody that has just had a sentence passed 149 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: on them, particularly when you're talking about what Leclair was 150 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: faced with, and I cannot begin to imagine where his 151 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: mind was going at this time. Dave, you mentioned that 152 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: Edward Leclair, he's a fifty seven year old man, he 153 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: had a Navy career, he was a corporate recruiter, and 154 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: then he's charged with five counts of sexual assault on 155 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: a person between the ages of fourteen and seventeen. He 156 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty on all the charges, and he knows 157 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: if he's guilty on the first count all the others 158 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: he's going to be guilty on all those. So he 159 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: is nervous and he knows what's coming. And I think 160 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: in a case like this, it is essentially like dominoes, 161 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: it's going to fall and you can kind of see 162 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: the proverbial writing on the wall at that point in time, 163 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: So you really wonder was this going to be the 164 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: trigger event that when he heard that term, he knew 165 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: that it was all over and that he was determined 166 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: to take his life. When someone has found guilty like 167 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: this and you know what you're facing, there are certain 168 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: steps that have to take place. First off, we mentioned 169 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: earlier on that he had walked into this courtroom under 170 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: his own free will, so obviously it had been out 171 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: on bond. He showed up and appeared at his own sentencing. 172 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: He didn't try to go on the run or anything. 173 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: But what witnesses later stated though, was that they did 174 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: see him go to a vending machine in the courthouse 175 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: and retrieve a bottle of water from it. When we 176 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: think about planning, and taking one's life does require some planning. 177 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: Sometimes it can be done spontaneously, but many times people 178 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: will ruminate over and think about it for a protracted 179 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: period of time. I find it very interesting in this 180 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: case that he didn't show up with a bottle of 181 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: water to begin with. He went to the vending machine 182 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: to retrieve a bottle of water. I think some things 183 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: can be taken away from that. Was there a chance 184 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: that he might not go through with it, because you 185 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: would think that if he was certainly prepared to do that. 186 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: It requires two things. First off, you have to have 187 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: the agent that you're going to use the poison. If 188 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: you will, and then you have to have the conveyance 189 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: for it. You have to have a water in order 190 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: to mix this substance up with. He didn't show up 191 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: prepared for that, which is quite striking when you begin 192 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: to think about it. Joe, if he had come into 193 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: court with a water bottle that was cloudy and didn't 194 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: look like water, he would not have been allowed in 195 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: with it. That is true, But why didn't he just 196 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: show up with previously bought bottle of water from home? 197 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: He actually went to the machine in the lobby there 198 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: to purchase this thing, which is odd. Just think about this. 199 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: How many times have we been to a vending machine 200 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: you put your money in and it says sold out? 201 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: How many times? That's an ultimate and frustration? Right, wouldn't 202 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: that be something? You know, shows up, he puts his 203 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: money in and things has sold out. Now what are 204 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 1: you going to do? You're going to get a bottle 205 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: of soda instead of a bottle of water. Can you 206 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: predict what's going to happen if you put this agent 207 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: into a carbonated beverage as opposed to just straight up water. 208 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. It just seems a bit risky on 209 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: one hand to me Dave that he would show up 210 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: without that element in place. But I do know this, 211 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: he showed up with a substance that was very lethal. Well, 212 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: let me ask you, because Joe I didn't think about that. 213 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: I just looked at it as his pre planning was, 214 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: I'm going to come into court, I'm gonna go through 215 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: all the things that check me out, and I'll go 216 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: buy a bottle of water. End. And somehow in the 217 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: time period between the time he buys the bottle of 218 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: water and the verdict is read, he is able to 219 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: put something in the water that witnesses said it was cloudy. 220 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: But it didn't occur to me if it was out, 221 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: if he could have done it with another liquid. We 222 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: just know that he had water and that witnesses said 223 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: that water was cloudy, which again he was drinking it 224 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: in such an odd fashion after the first guilty that 225 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: it did draw attention. People did notice, including an investigator 226 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: for the county. It's within our nature's humans when somebody 227 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: is faced with this kind of charge in Leclair's case, 228 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: that's so very ominous and dark when you hear this. 229 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: If you're in the audience, whether you're the judge or 230 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: maybe a detective that has been following the case, maybe 231 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,719 Speaker 1: work the case, his counsel that's sitting next to him, 232 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: or maybe the prosecutor, or maybe just a reporter that 233 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: showed it from the local newspaper and you're taking notes. 234 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: You're going to be looking at this guy anyway, because 235 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: that's what everybody wants to see. They want to see 236 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: how someone is going to react. Camera will pan over 237 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: to that individual in court. It's the ultimate and drama 238 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: and to try to capture their reaction. How much more 239 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: so in a case like this, where you've got a 240 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: guy that's literally looking at spending the rest of his 241 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: life in prison. He's certainly now going to be a 242 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: convicted sex offender at that point in time. Then he's 243 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: going to be put into the population in Texas in 244 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: state penitentiary where he's going to have very rough go 245 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: of it. That in and of itself is drama enough. 246 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: But you're right, Dave, when you say that, suddenly it's 247 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: not just taking SIPs, it's throwing this thing back and 248 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: guzzling it. Some reports say that he actually grimaced a 249 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: bit when this occurred. So you're thinking, why is he 250 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: drinking water like this? Because all of us can kind 251 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: of identify with having dry mouth. You're kind of knocked 252 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: that back as best you can. But no, that's not 253 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: what happened. I guess the only way to really phrase 254 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: is he was drinking with a purpose. I'm going to 255 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: ask you, Joe, what could he possibly mixed with water 256 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: that could cause his demise? What could he do where 257 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: nobody can see, because he's got to do this hidden. 258 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: He's got his bottle of water there, he somehow is 259 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: able to open it and put something in that water. 260 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:19,359 Speaker 1: The prosecutor believed early on that Leclaire had perhaps ingested cyanide, 261 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: and I think that most people think of it's kind 262 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: of a default position when you suspect that someone has 263 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: taken their own life, they're ingesting something. Side is kind 264 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: of this classic thing that you see in the movies. 265 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: We've heard of l pills that contain cyanide, where people 266 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: can take their own lives, and it's kind of what 267 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: we think about. Interestingly enough, it was not cyanide. It's 268 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: actually a chemical that is used sometimes to decrease the 269 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: lethality of cyanide ingestion. It's kind of fascinating because he 270 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: chose to use a substance called sodium nitrite. It's a 271 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: salt and we most commonly associated with preservation of food. 272 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: It's something that you find in any kind of food preservative. Nowadays. 273 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: We've heard of how years ago they used to salt 274 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: meat to store it for a protracted period of time. 275 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: People have a smokehouse, they would salt their meat. We're 276 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: talking about pure salt in order to do that. This 277 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: is a compound sodium nitrite, and it's utilized in order 278 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: to not just preserve food, but it's also facilitates maintaining 279 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: kind of a healthy looking color to food. And the 280 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: old day's salt would actually dry out the meat to 281 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: the point where it would look brown and it would 282 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: make it very unappetizing in appearance. But with this substance, 283 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: it still maintains kind of a beefy red appearance. It 284 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: still looks palatable, even though the salted meat in the 285 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: past was palatable and preserved. But there's something to be 286 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: said for something that still looks viable when we're looking 287 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: to ingest something, and it will achieve the same goal. 288 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: But this substance that's used for a wide variety of things. 289 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: As I said, it can be used as a treatment 290 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: to knock down cyanide ingestion. It's also used in treating metals. 291 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: It's got a very broad spectrum utility to it. But 292 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: here's the thing. When taken in very big doses, it's 293 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: highly highly lethal, and of course, in the case of Claire, 294 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: it ended his life. Sodium nitrite a stroke of genius, 295 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: as it were. It's something that is easily accessible. It's 296 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: a substance that just about anybody can get their hands on. 297 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: If you try to find an agent like cyanide, you're 298 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: going to draw attention to yourself. But with this particular substance, 299 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: it is something that the general public can actually purchase 300 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 1: and readily use, and in this case, that's what Leoklear 301 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: decided to end his life with. Dave. Now you're kind 302 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: of confusing me just a little bit because you said 303 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: that sodium nitrite can be used to make meat look 304 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: more appealing. Yet in the same token, the very thing 305 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: that can make the food look better can kill me 306 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: as well and is readily available. And you point it out, 307 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: cyanide is going to draw attention, but sodium nitrite is 308 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: something that is common and commonly used in many different things. 309 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: How much is enough if I'm using it to make 310 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: my meat look good. Is there like you can go 311 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: three marshmallows, but the fourth one's going to kill you. 312 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: I don't know if I'd reduce it down to marshmallows, Dave, 313 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: but you have to have a significant amount of it, 314 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,120 Speaker 1: and you would have to have the ability to transport 315 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: it as well. In appearance, it's a white crystalline substance. 316 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: It's assault, so it's going to have that kind of 317 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: appearance to it. It's completely odorless, so it's not necessarily 318 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: going to draw attention to you. It was a real risk, 319 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: I think for him to bring it into the courthouse though, 320 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: because you're surrounded with law enforcement types. You've got this 321 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: in some kind of conveyance, whether it be and they've 322 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: never been very specific about this, but you've either got 323 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: it in a bag or you've got it in some 324 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: kind of vial And just imagine you're around law enforcement types, 325 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: they know that you're going into criminal court and suddenly 326 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: they search you. Well, the default position for the police 327 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: or law enforcement is if they search you and they 328 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: find a baggy with a white crystalline, non specific substance 329 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: in it, they're automatically going to begin to think, well, 330 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: what is this? Is it some type of illicit drug? 331 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: Could it be coke? Could it be meth? Could it 332 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: be any of these things? Running the risk with the 333 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: bottle of water not showing up with it in hand, 334 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: and then you're going to walk into the courtroom with 335 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: a white crystalline substance. You're really kind of sticking your 336 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: neck out here with this plan. But he decided to 337 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: roll the dice, and in this case, it certainly worked. 338 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: And with this particular substance, it inhibits the uptake of oxygen. 339 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: Our red blood cells transport oxygen to our cells throughout 340 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: our body. With the introduction of the substance into the system, 341 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: it inhibits that ability, so the oxygen can't bond with 342 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: the hemoglobin and transport it around, and it causes at 343 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: a cellular level for the cells to begin to struggle. 344 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: You have to have oxygenated blood in order to function, 345 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: and essentially the cells, for lack of a better term, 346 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: begin comes strangulate. At that point in time, this shocked everyone. 347 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 1: Nobody saw this coming, knowing what he was facing, facing 348 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: a hundred years in prison, Nobody thought this was going 349 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: to happen. They didn't. It's not like he had gone 350 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: through some type of assessment just prior to walking into court. 351 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: He's here to hear the final outcome. Trial has been 352 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: going on. He's living on the outside, and he's faced 353 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: with the reality he knows what the evidence is. He's 354 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: faced with the reality there's a chance he is not 355 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: walking back out of that courtroom without bracelets on his 356 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: wrist and not being shackled at this point in time, 357 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: and he's got a very narrow window to work with. 358 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: So in answer to your question, I'm thinking probably a 359 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: five gram to ten gram dosage would probably be enough 360 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: to push him over the edge, and it would certainly 361 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: give that water that cloudy appearance. The water didn't appear dirty. 362 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: It kind of turns it into not really bige, but 363 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: kind of a white. It is water soluble, but it 364 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: takes a few seconds for it to begin to break 365 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: down where you would not be able to appreciate it. 366 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: So he dumped it in pretty quick and use the 367 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: water to ingest it. It begins to work very very quickly. 368 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: When they begin to take him away, already at a 369 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: cellular level, he's beginning to struggle. He becomes diphyretic, a 370 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: skin is getting cold, clammy, starting to sweat, unsteady gait. 371 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: They're leading him back to a holding cell where they 372 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: take all of these people that have been found guilty, 373 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: and once they PLoP him down in that holding cell, 374 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: he begins to vomit. He begins to vomit. It's the 375 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: body's reaction, at least in the initial phase to the 376 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: substance being within his digestive track. At that point, his 377 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: body's having the scretching event. That's kind of cleared the system, 378 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: but it's too late at that point. As a matter 379 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: of fact, that autopsy. One of the things that you 380 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: see with a gastric mucosa, which is kind of the 381 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: lining of the esophagus in the stomach. When that area 382 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: is open and you've been exposed to the substance, it 383 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: forms this film. It's kind of got a beige appearance 384 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: to it. It's a reactive event that your body reacting 385 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 1: to this stuff. Just from the initial onset. You've got 386 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: an indication in the gastric mucause the stuff being absorbed. 387 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: That's one of the quickest ways to get it into 388 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,239 Speaker 1: the system. So it's already being absorbed as soon as 389 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: it begins to hit his mouth, that digestive process begins 390 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: at that point and it's going out systemically. At this point, 391 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: it's getting into his bloodstream, it's inhibiting the oxygen uptake. 392 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,479 Speaker 1: The body is wretching, it's trying to get rid of it. 393 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: And another thing that you see with this kind of 394 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: event is that individuals become hypoxic. That's an outward demonstration 395 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: of a lack of oxygen. Sometimes they'll become cyanotic, and 396 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: cyanotic or psygnosis is something that you see many times 397 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 1: with congestive heart failure or respiratory failure. You see it 398 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: with drug acts. Many times they'll have this eggplant colored 399 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: hue that comes over them where they're purple almost. But 400 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: in his case, he was in the early stages when 401 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: they initially saw. The reports were that he had become 402 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: very pale ashen and eventually he begins to convulse, which 403 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: is again associated with ingestion of this stuff. You think 404 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: about the time involved. He starts drinking. After the first 405 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: guilty verdict is read, they read all five. He's chugging 406 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: jing jing jing. He's taken this down. Five verdicts guilty, guilty, 407 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: Yielty guilty hilding, and then the judge then sends the 408 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: jury out of the room. Are convicted pedophile. They're both 409 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: sent out of the room. He has moved to a 410 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: holding cell adjacent to the courtroom. The jury moved to 411 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: their room. He immediately goes in there and starts throwing up, 412 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: which isn't going to shock anyone right away. The man 413 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: was just found guilty. He's now a convicted pedophile. He 414 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: knows he's staring a hundred years in prison. That's what 415 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: the judge is going to now discuss with the attorneys 416 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 1: about sentencing. So while he's in there, he starts throwing 417 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: up and somebody says, hey, I believe it was the 418 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: investigator for Didon County, said go check on him. Something's 419 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: not right, and that's when a bailiff went and checked 420 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: on him and found him unconscious. It was that quick. 421 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: It is that quick that goes to the level of lethality, 422 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: and this is something that he had planned out. But 423 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 1: here's the key. Dave found this quite chilling when I 424 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: was taking a look at this case. This is not 425 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: the first of these cases involving someone utilizing this substance. 426 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: I guess it was back in twenty one. You had 427 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: this young actor, Matthew Miidler that had utilized this substance 428 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: to kill himself with. There's also another actress that had 429 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: utilized this substance. You've got a couple of kids out 430 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: there that have used it. The fascinating thing is that 431 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: Amazon company. Amazon was actually sued over the substance because 432 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: people were peddling what turned out to be quote unquote 433 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: suicide kids. There's no reason for anyone to be in 434 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: possession of this substance unless you're preserving or curing meat 435 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: at home perhaps, and it's not something that's naturally occurring 436 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: in our system. At autopsy, after you've done the gross 437 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: examination and we've talked about this on bodybacks before, where 438 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: you're actually staring at the organs after you have the 439 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: body open, then you do the dissection. You look at 440 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: the changes microscopically through histological examinations, and there will be 441 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: a few changes that you can notice, but nothing really specific. 442 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: So the answers are traditionally going to rest in toxicology, 443 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: and that's one of the reasons it took some time 444 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: for them to work their way through it. They know 445 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: at the medical Examiner's office that they're dealing with some 446 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: kind of toxin that has brought his death about. It's 447 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: not like he was just found lying out on the 448 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: street deceased. They know that this is something that he 449 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: has ingested. The trick is how do you begin to 450 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: whittle this down? And when you're conducting an investigation like this, 451 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: it's not just what you find at autopsy. You have 452 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: to go back to this individual's home where they were dwelling. 453 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: You have to look for receipts. You have to look 454 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: for maybe a larger amount of this substance. Did they 455 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: have access to it? Did they work in an industry 456 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: perhaps that utilize the substance. You would look through through 457 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: the computer files. You'd want to see. Had he searched 458 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: out means to take my own life by some type 459 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: of substance that I can ingest. He's not going to 460 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: walk into the courtroom and be able to get through 461 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: a metal detector with a gun. In his mind, apparently 462 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: this was the next best thing. And there have been 463 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: other people that have taken poisons in court. There have 464 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: actually been people that have done great harm to themselves 465 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: in court, But in this particular instance, he had to 466 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: have something that was portable that he could simply unscrew 467 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: the top of a bottle of water and pour this 468 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,239 Speaker 1: in very carefully without drawing any kind of notice, and 469 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: shake this thing up and then ingested. This brings us 470 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: to another point. He's thought about this. I wonder back 471 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: at his home if when the investigators went there they 472 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: found any evidence that he had been practicing, because that's 473 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: something that occurs many times. Were the people that decide 474 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: to take their lives, they will go through a series 475 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: of exercises to see if things function. We see this 476 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 1: with suicide by gunfire. People will do what's called test 477 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 1: firing a weapon. We hear about test firing as it 478 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: applies to ballistic examination or gunfire examination. Individuals that are 479 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: bent on taking their life with a firearm, they will 480 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: actually test fire weapons prior to using them on themselves. 481 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: If you suspect somebody has poisoned themselves, is there something 482 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: that can be done that could reverse the effects of 483 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: this and maybe other poisons. For years and years, there's 484 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: been the induction of vomiting that has occurred. When you 485 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: hear about people having their stomachs pumped, But most of 486 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 1: the time that's going to be with prescription medications. Many 487 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: of those things will have like time releases with a 488 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: substance like this. Time is a big element here. You 489 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: said something very very interesting a moment ago, Dave, that 490 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: had not struck me until this moment, and that was 491 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: when they take him back to that holding cell and 492 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: he's in there and he begins vomiting. That would not 493 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: be an unexpected reaction to this kind of sentence, would it. 494 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: So you have a time delay there, I think, and 495 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: some people have drawn this into question in this particular case, 496 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: did they delay getting the paramedics there. Well, when you 497 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: see somebody begin throwing up, you don't automatically think poisoning. Okay, 498 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: it's not like the guy's got to sign around his 499 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: neck that says I've just ingested this. You've got a 500 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: guy that is looking at a hundred years as a 501 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: sex offender in a state penitentiary. At this point in time. 502 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: I could see somebody throwing up. I could see somebody 503 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: having severe gastrointestinal distress at this moment in time. So 504 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: the bailiff, who you can only imagine these holding sales, 505 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: have seen just about everything in there, and to see 506 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: somebody throwing up is not beyond the pale. It's something 507 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,479 Speaker 1: that may have been expected. Maybe it's something they had 508 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: seen before, so they're going to delay. But it's when 509 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: he goes into an unconscious state, when he starts to 510 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: convulse this sort of thing, they know they've got a problem. 511 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: So time is of the essence. Is there an agent 512 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: that they could have induced vomiting with, perhaps, but the 513 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: key is there was nobody around to do that, and 514 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: this agent works so very quickly Dave that he was 515 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: beyond salvation at that point in time. The number to 516 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: call if you or somebody you know is suffering through 517 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: life right now and is really considering taking their own 518 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: life or causing harm, the number to call is eight 519 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: hundred two seven three Ta LK. That's eight two five 520 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: five eight hundred two seven three eight two five five 521 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: for the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 522 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: and this is Body Backs