1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our guest 4 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: super producer, Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan. 5 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 2: Dylan the Texas no the Tennessee Chainsaw Gentle Massacre Fagan. Yeah, 6 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 2: what a guy. Help his hands on the men's. 7 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: And thanks for giving us a hand. By the way, Dylan, 8 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: they called me ben Bollen. That's Noel Brown. Uh No, 9 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I don't think we've ever talked 10 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: about this. Uh, even in the days where I uh, 11 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: I would be the kind of person who would go 12 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: to one of those boozy mimosa brunches or whatever. I 13 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: never got the bloody Mary for me. You know, it's 14 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: a it's a cold soup, an alcoholic soup. It's like 15 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: a spacho with problems, a spacho soup. Where's my gaspacho soup? Yeah, 16 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: it's burning tip burn my mouth. 17 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 2: Not into it. Yeah, I don't know. I've I've tried 18 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: to like it in the past and had a sip. 19 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: I was dating somebody for a long time who's really 20 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 2: into them, but didn't didn't go for it. And now 21 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 2: I don't really drink too much, so it does seem 22 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 2: like a popular go to like hangover cure, which basically 23 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 2: just because you're drinking more. It's that hair of the 24 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: dog situation. Maybe there's vitamins in the juice. I don't know. 25 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, And look, I'm not morally opposed to the Bloody Mary. 26 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: Do is that will? 27 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: There's a lot of creativity in it when you get 28 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: into the ingredients. But as we're going to learn in 29 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: this episode, Bloody Mary has three different kinds of ridiculous 30 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: history to it, going far past the drink. 31 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: Three aspects, right, like a holy trinity kind of situation. 32 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: How many times are you supposed to say it? 33 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: Been in the game That is common in parts of 34 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: the West. Candyman rolls turn off the lights, Yeah, candy 35 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,399 Speaker 1: Man rules you look in a mirror in the dark 36 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: and you say the name Bloody Mary three times. 37 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 2: Three times? Always three? Hey, another holy trinity situation. Whitmer 38 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 2: Thomas as are incredible the comedian. We very much enjoy 39 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: our incredible research associate Wren points out described the brunch 40 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: cocktail as a hot wing in a glass, and Ben, 41 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: I don't know if you've been or seen some of 42 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: these places that literally will put like a giant like 43 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 2: piece of bacon or even a actual hot wing like 44 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 2: on the side of the there. 45 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: They're the buffet approaches. 46 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 2: We got big. 47 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: The value add for brunch is that you go to 48 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: a ridiculous spread of ingredients that you can put into 49 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: your Bloody Mary and people just go nuts with it. 50 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 1: It's like it's like an old dagwood sandwich, but it's 51 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: as a drink. 52 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah, or like a like a savory froyo barre. Weird. 53 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 2: It's very weird. 54 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: And we know also that Bloody Mary was a moniker 55 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: for a queen in the sixteenth century. She got this name. 56 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: It's it's not one of those ironic names. Nope, she 57 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: got it because she really did not dig Protestant She. 58 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: Likes to murder them copiously, that's for sure. 59 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: And so those are the three ways that we're we're 60 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: going to be looking at the idea of bloody Mary. 61 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: The same term that can describe three very different things. 62 00:03:54,080 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: A queen, a childhood game, and a divisive beverage associated 63 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: with drinking alcohol first thing in the morning. 64 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, ye you love it, or yeah you hate it. 65 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: I don't know too many people who are indifferent to 66 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: it or will go for one, you know, every now 67 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: and again. It's something that people really dig. Yep, for sure. 68 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 2: The bloody Mary has been curing hangovers for over a century, 69 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 2: and it was by one account conducted by bartender Fernand 70 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: Petois in nineteen twenty one at Harry's Bar. I believe 71 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 2: this is the official account. A favorite Paris hangout for 72 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: a lot of the you know midnight in Paris types, 73 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: the American expat writers and recontours like f. Scott Fitzgerald 74 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: and of course famous lush Ernest Hemingway. The recipe was 75 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: first published in a collection of cocktail recipes called Harry's 76 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: ABC not ABC's of Cocktails. 77 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: And over the years people played the game of telephone 78 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: in the glass here they they put their own spin 79 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: on the recipe. Different regional styles of a bloodyberry emerged. 80 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: For instance, in Charleston, a bloody Mary can typically come 81 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: with cold shrimp and pickled okra. 82 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: Which a shrimp cocktail, which I do like, I do 83 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: like a shrimp cocktail. Yeah, the okra is throwing me off, 84 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 2: not like in the okra. It's mucilaginous tastes. It's snotty. 85 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: So that's an official name for what type of veg 86 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 2: that is. But the drink staple ingredients remain the same 87 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 2: as led Zeppelin would put it. Salt and pepper, tabasco, 88 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 2: sauce Worcestershire sauce Worcester, depending on if you're nasty, lemon juice, vodka, 89 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 2: and tomato juice. 90 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: Of course, so I didn't. I didn't clock that. 91 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: It did not either did not either, But I could 92 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: see that in the shrimp cocktail of planting a little, 93 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 2: a little, a little what's the word, a little zing. 94 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 2: Despite the cocktail's long standing popularity, the origins, as I 95 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 2: sort of indicated up to remain up for debate to 96 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: some degree as far as the name of it, at 97 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 2: the very least. 98 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: Right the provenance the origin of the name for the 99 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: drink specifically, you're going to see. You're going to see 100 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: a couple of theories, some that have more supporting evidence 101 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: than others. The big three of this, there is speculation 102 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: that our bar owner Guy named the drink as a 103 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: way to pay homage to an exotic dancer that he 104 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: had a big, big crush on it. Was a dancer 105 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: named Mary who was either working at a bar in 106 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: Chicago nicknamed Bucket of Blood or was a regular at 107 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: that bar, so it became known as a dive bar 108 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: in its day, or a home to the criminal element. 109 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: This is where all kinds of ne'er do wells of 110 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: Chicago would congregate, situated right across from something called Bedbug Roll, 111 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: which was the cheapest, uh agglomeration of sex houses of 112 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: ill repute. 113 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, sex positive neighborhood. 114 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they were the they were known as the 115 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: most affordable of of all of Chicago. 116 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: So bed Bug Row, Yeah, I mean, I guess you 117 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: could maybe liken that to what's referred to often the 118 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: neighborhood in Los Angeles called skid Row. Usually, I don't know. 119 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 2: I guess they're positive rows. Are there? Fancy rows? Can row? 120 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: No canary rose a good row either? No, I don't 121 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 2: think so. I guess maybe I can't think of any 122 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 2: positive rows row row row. You're both. That's different. That's unrelated. 123 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: Quick amendment here. Now canery Row has been gentrified, of 124 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: course it has, and now it's now it's classy again. 125 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: But in wasn't it a Steinbeck novel? 126 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, nineteen forty five, he was writing about canary here. 127 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: He had a novel called Canary Rose, set in the depression, 128 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: and it's about people who live on a street where 129 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: there are a bunch of fish canaries, and about how 130 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: life kind of stinks. 131 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: Savile row, thank you, thank you. Change. That is the 132 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 2: area in London where you can get a real nice 133 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: shirt exactly, and the tailors and fashioning bits along. It's great. 134 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 2: It's great. 135 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: If you're walking around and you're thinking my wallet is 136 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: too heavy, exactly, well go over there. Bucket of Blood 137 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: was a nickname for this this notorious dive bar. It 138 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: was formally known as the New Delaware. 139 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 2: It was famous. 140 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 1: Like the Yelper views, if such existed at the time, 141 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: would say, this place is famous for its bar fights, 142 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: so much so that by the end of the night, 143 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: when they were cleaning up before they closed, the mop 144 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: water would turn red with. 145 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 2: Is that is that how they made their pink lemonade? 146 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: That's how? Yeah, that's how. Maybe that's I don't know. 147 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: You got to remember that the callback was clown clownwn 148 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: mop water essentially from ringing out their. 149 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: Tights, reading out their tights and their their clown costs. 150 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 2: Uh huh. 151 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: Luckily, for better or worse, we should say this is 152 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: not the only possible origin story of the drink. We've 153 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: got two more, right, we do. 154 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 2: Indeed, rumor has it that our boy, uh, the very 155 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: tipsy Ernest Hemingway, i'd been dating a lady entertaining, a 156 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,839 Speaker 2: lady named Mary just before his first marriage to Hadlee Richardson. 157 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 2: And as the story goes, according to PBS, Hemingway, who 158 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 2: was a notorious drunk, allegedly didn't want to have alcohol 159 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 2: on his breath when he next saw Lady Mary, so 160 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: he asked for a drink to be mixed with juice. 161 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: And because God forbid, he just drink juice, God forbid, 162 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: he just not well, he's. 163 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: Not going to forego that hair of the dog. I mean, 164 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 2: it's also, you never hung over if you're always drunk. 165 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: That's that's a philosophy that I think Hemingway would have 166 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 2: been here too. So, while drinking Patois's newest concoction, Hemingway 167 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 2: supposedly burst out with the swear, cursing bloody Mary for 168 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: causing him all this trouble. Because okay, as far as 169 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: another one, but this one seems like a little what's 170 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 2: the word apocryphal, hocr full? 171 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: Thank you b Yeah, it just it also doesn't paint 172 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: hemingway in the best of life. 173 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 2: Not many stories do to be fair, right. Uh. 174 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: The third idea is this wherever it comes from, right 175 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: or whatever inspired this guy to create this drink, it 176 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: does catch on. You can now find it in all 177 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: kinds of restaurants in Paris, and when it gets to Europe, 178 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: the name is generally a trip to the English Queen 179 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: Mary Tudor because she had the moniker Bloody Mary to 180 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: start with, so she comes before the drink, which isn't 181 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: that surprising? 182 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 2: Might we add really quickly before we move on to 183 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 2: the Bloody Queen that Harry's still is around in Paris today, 184 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 2: much like what is it Lafitte's blacksmith shop in New 185 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: Orleans another one of those historical dive bars, and the 186 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: Bloody Mary is very much a specialty. They serve an 187 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: estimated twelve thousand of them every single year. 188 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: That seems like a lot. You know, we're not experts, 189 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: but that's that's a lot of tomato juice. At the 190 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: very least it is. 191 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean I know you can also buy 192 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: like Bloody Mary mix. But I think if you're doing 193 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 2: it proper, you would just use like a you know, 194 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: an A one, not an A one. What's it called 195 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 2: V eight kind of situation set up yourself. But let's 196 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: jump in with the Queen Mary Tutor aka Bloody Mary, 197 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 2: England's first female ruler. Mary the First had a bit 198 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 2: of a rep for being one of history's biggest bullies. 199 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 2: As Wren describes their biggest battle axes, which I really dig. 200 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 2: She was brutal, She was unyielding and unforgiving. She ruled 201 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 2: England with an iron fist. She revived some long retired 202 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 2: laws against heresy in order to do a little bit 203 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 2: of persecution against the Protestants who she did not enjoy 204 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: living in her kingdom. 205 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a non ideal situation. Mary is very 206 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: ideologically motivated, right to restore Catholic control over England. And 207 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: when we say heresy laws, we say persecution of these 208 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: upstart Protestants. We're not talking about making them pay extra 209 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: taxes or something like that. She spearheaded the death of 210 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: over three hundred people, burning them at the stake, on 211 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: charges of heresy. And this estimate is very rough. It 212 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: doesn't include the people who died in prison before the 213 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: government could set them ablaze. And it doesn't count the 214 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: eight hundred Protestants who immediately had to flee the country. 215 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: They may have died on the way they we don't 216 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: know what happened to them. 217 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 2: I mean, this is absolutely a genocide of sorts, wouldn't 218 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 2: you say? I mean in terms of a targeting of 219 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,239 Speaker 2: a particular type of people, a particular type of beliefs, 220 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: and essentially exterminating them. 221 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, if if Mary's administration had their way, everybody who 222 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: was Protestant would either convert or be murdered. This is 223 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: very much a mass casualty event. Look, we're saying she 224 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: earned the nickname Bloody Mary. There's a little bit of 225 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: empathy we can exercise. I don't know if it's deserved 226 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: in this case, but we do have to admit that 227 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: Mary's childhood was not pretty, non ideal. It was lonely, 228 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: it was bleak. Her father, Henry the Eighth we've discussed 229 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: in the past, was a real pill. Yes, so maybe 230 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 1: that had an effect. Let's learn a little bit more 231 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: about Mary's childhood. 232 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 2: What do you say, Yeah, she was born in fifteen sixteen, 233 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: great year, to King Henry the eighth of England and 234 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 2: his longest standing wife, Catherine of Aragon. Although Catherine was 235 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 2: Henry's first wife, she'd previously been married to his older 236 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 2: brother Arthur, which is going to come into play in 237 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: a little bit. Catherine was betrothed to Arthur by her parents, 238 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain, who we know, 239 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 2: didn't they send Crystobal Columbus. 240 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, Ferdinand, Queen Isabella of Spain, they are the 241 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: ones who sent crystobol Colo. 242 00:14:53,600 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: Across the ocean of it be Colon even better, Catherine, 243 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: who was fifteen when she married Arthur, left everything she 244 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 2: knew from her previous life behind and became the queen 245 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: of a foreign land. However, just five months into their marriage, 246 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: Arthur passed away due to a mysterious illness, and Ren 247 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: points out, we got a lot of sick boys in 248 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: this episode, yeah, to. 249 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: Which I we respond, we've got a lot of sick people, 250 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: this boy and the sick man too. Unfortunately, and we 251 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:33,479 Speaker 1: have to realize that there's this big romanticization of royalty, 252 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: especially here in the West. But being at the tippy 253 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: top of the social hierarchy did not necessarily a good 254 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: life make so this is an arranged marriage. Catherine doesn't 255 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: really have a say in all, yeah, at all. 256 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 2: And she's going to be taken to task for a 257 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: thing that she didn't have a say in at all. 258 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 2: Little bit down the line, and a really gross abusive 259 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: power that just gets more abusive as time goes on. 260 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: In fact, if you look at the larger context, she 261 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: was kind of lucky she made it to fifteen in 262 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: the first place before being carted off against her will 263 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: into this relationship. So now she's a teenage widow. Henry 264 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: the Eighth is only ten years old. 265 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: Insufferable at ten can you imagine he's. 266 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: Very king Jeoffrey at head. That's why I say he's 267 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: ten years old. When his brother passes away and the 268 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: boy's father, Henry the seventh resumes his role as king. 269 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: But then, okay, we're throwing Roman numerals around. Folks talk 270 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: with him. Yeah, but then Henry the Seventh he dies 271 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: six years later, and by the time he dies, Henry 272 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: the Eighth is now of legal age, which means he 273 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: can assume the throne. Henry the Eighth could have chosen 274 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: another wife, but it is believed that his father's dying 275 00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: wish was that he continued this English alliance with Spain so. 276 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 2: And he wanted him to win one for the Gipper. 277 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: There's no question, so Ben I really quickly just backtracked. 278 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 2: You made a King Jeoffrey comment, and I just want 279 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: to say that young actor who played King Jeoffrey, great guy. Well, 280 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 2: he's fantastic Jack Leeson, but he, I think because of 281 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 2: all the backlash he got from playing such an insufferable, 282 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 2: detestable character, he said he wasn't gonna act anymore. But 283 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 2: did you notice he popped up in the new Sandman 284 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 2: season doing Shakespeare. Yeah, he plays one of the fairies 285 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 2: in the Midsummer Night's Dream and he plays Puck and 286 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 2: he's fabulous. Oh it's just I was just glad to 287 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: see him back because I'd such a bummer when you 288 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: feel as though a role that you've played, an absolutely 289 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: fictional role, is following you around and people are being 290 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 2: genuinely mean to you because of a pretend character you 291 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: played on TV. 292 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: Happened to SIRC, happened to the guys who played the 293 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: Slytherin characters and Harry Potter. It's a rough one. You 294 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: may ask yourself Why are the guys throwing around all 295 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: these seven and eight interchangeably? 296 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: Here? 297 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: I thought we were talking about bloody Mary. To talk 298 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: about bloody Mary, we have to talk about Catherine here. 299 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: All this as a result of all this stuff in 300 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: these geopolitical shenanigans. In fifteen oh nine, to continue the 301 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: alliance with Spain, Henry the Eighth does marry his sister 302 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: in law. He is seventeen, she is twenty. 303 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: Four, that's correct. And before Mary was born the couple 304 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 2: had a lot of trouble producing an air. You know, 305 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 2: that's a big part of the story with Henry. So 306 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: you'd think that her arrival would be a blessing, but 307 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 2: unfortunately she was not a male heir, which was a problem. 308 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: While Mary's mother was super excited and overjoyed to have 309 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 2: finally given birth to a healthy child having gone through 310 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 2: so much difficulty in previous pregnancies, Henry was not stoked 311 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 2: because at that stage only a male heir could continue 312 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 2: the line the Twota legacy to Despite Henry's indifference to 313 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: Mary's entire existence, Mary's mother doated on her as much 314 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: as she was able to do her parents. Mary's mother 315 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 2: uh spearheaded the Spanish Inquisition to violently convert Muslims and 316 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: Jews to Catholicism. 317 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: Oh and that's that's not Mary's mother, Catherine. That's Catherine's 318 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: parents whose spearheaded the Spanish Inquisition. 319 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 2: That's all I'm saying, Yes, correct, and thank you for 320 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: the for the clarification. But this was something that she 321 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 2: was very much exposed to. That oh yeah, highly contributed 322 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 2: to her I don't know, mental state and her family, 323 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 2: her belief system. 324 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: Because it's normalized. 325 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 2: Right. 326 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: It's kind of like how HP Lovecraft grew up with 327 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: a cat that had a very problematic name. 328 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 2: Goodness, that's true. Yeah it's a good story, but yeah 329 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: it's not good. 330 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: Thank Goodness. HP Lovecraft didn't have the legal ability to 331 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: burn people. 332 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 2: At the stake. 333 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: But Mary's mom, Mary's mom does love her and does 334 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: what the best for her daughter. So even though it's 335 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: an imperfect childchildhood, Mary achieves something that is pretty rare 336 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: for the average woman of the time. She gets an 337 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: awesome education. She also becomes incredibly Catholic. Like and we're 338 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: not in any way casting aspersions on Catholicism or a 339 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: Catholic friends today. We're just saying she went super hard 340 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: on the paint. Yes, indeed so in fifteen twenty but 341 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: just to mention Mikole. At the time, you know, she 342 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: wasn't a total outlier. You know, Catholicism was. 343 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 2: Still relatively common in the area or in the in 344 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: the country. In fifteen twenty two, Mary's mother Catherine got 345 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 2: a lady in waiting, a handmaiden, I believe is that 346 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 2: sort of similar situation, a companion assistant of lower birth. 347 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 2: But I've also still love nobility though I believe it 348 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: wasn't just like you know, a peasant. It was someone 349 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: who was of lower nobility but still not at the 350 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 2: same echelon. So she was almost like an apprentice, kind 351 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: of following her around, doing things for her, et cetera. 352 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 2: This was, of course, and blim, no relation. Yeah, she's 353 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 2: a different feeling, right right, she is. 354 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: Anne is a regular presence in the royal court, and 355 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: this means that she gets the attention of that lecherous 356 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: old goat Henry, unlike so many other women that he 357 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: had initiated affairs with, and said no, she said, I 358 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: don't care how powerful you are, I'm not into it. 359 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: And there's still a lot of you know, we'll see 360 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: how the history works out, But there's still a lot 361 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: of speculation over whether this was like a long come right, 362 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: whether this is a chess game on her part, like 363 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: that old there's this old chauvinistic saying from I think 364 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: the nineteen forties. It was something like a man chases 365 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: a woman till she catches him, which is a pity 366 00:21:58,800 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: little turn of phrase. 367 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: Is that where the term chaste comes from? Or is 368 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 2: that chastity? That's chastity? That it is a weird one. Yeah, 369 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 2: you got it? 370 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: Uh So was she played you know, quote unquote hard 371 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: to get or was she genuinely saying no, I'm not 372 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 1: into it. Also, bro, you've got your you've got relationships 373 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: going on whatever kind of smell and you kind of yeah, 374 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: because it's the fifteen hundreds so and probably spelled too. 375 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: Are we entering King Henry the eighth sort of fat 376 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 2: Elvis period at this point too? Isn't he a bit 377 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: of a monstrosity, you know, chouning down on No fat 378 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,239 Speaker 2: shaming here, obviously, but he was a bit of a 379 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 2: of a you know, despicable creature who probably you know, 380 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 2: didn't I find him odious? Yes? Odious? Thank you? Ben 381 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 2: And odious, mainly because of his deeds and the way 382 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 2: he behaves towards women. But I do believe he was 383 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: also a bit of a grotesque. 384 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: Right uh, because no one ever told him no. Start 385 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: maybe another king in a foreign land. Part of her 386 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: playing hard to get was saying, look, the only way 387 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: I'll sleep with you is if we do it honestly 388 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: in the eyes of the church. So Henry is yes, 389 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: anding all the way through this. He says, let's get married, Astik, 390 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: I've just picked her. Anne going yeah, but Henry, You're 391 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: already married, and he goes, oh yeah, Astik, is this 392 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: slight thing with that? We are Catholic as well, and 393 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: the Catholics won't let us get divorced. So I'm going 394 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: to go to the church and I'm going to ask 395 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: for the marriage to be annulled because of incest, because 396 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: she had first been married to my brother a decade 397 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: before we hitched up. And the Pope listens to this 398 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: like a skeptical venture capitalist on Shark Tank. Right, he's 399 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: got his fingers steepled, or he's like Simon Cowell watching 400 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: an audition on whatever that show was, America's Got Talent. 401 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: And after Henry does this performance and the incess thing 402 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: is technically true. The Pope looks around and says, nah, dog, 403 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: he's not good enough, not good enough. He won't grant 404 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: the annulment. And this is what leads Henry the Eighth 405 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: to sever ties with the Catholic Church and to found 406 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: the Church of England. 407 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: And the ultimate I'm taking my toys and going home. 408 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: Move because of this one hookup that he really wanted. 409 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 2: I know, that's crazy, it's really wild. So under the 410 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: new Protestant regime, Henry was able to divorce Katherine and 411 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 2: Mary and and boor Henry another child, but surprise, surprise, 412 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: as you may well know, was not a male heir 413 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 2: yet again, this was Elizabeth, who would go on to 414 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 2: do some things in her own right. This is from 415 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: a great BBC History article on this whole sortid ef 416 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 2: Henry's allegations of incest effectively bastardized Mary. Yeah yeah, just 417 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: disowned entirely. And nothing is worse in these days than 418 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: being like an unwed mother or like a bastard. As 419 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 2: we know again from Game of Thrones, that term is 420 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 2: thrown around as quite a slanderous slur. 421 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 1: And even if you're at the top again of the 422 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: social hierarchy. If you are royalty and there are legitimate 423 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: claims of illegitimacy, this is very dangerous. Your life is 424 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: still gonna stink. Any political rival is going to always 425 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: hammer that through when they want to get over on you. Still, 426 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: Mary is, as we said, she is a staunch Catholic. 427 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: After Anne Boleyn gives birth to Elizabeth, which we just mentioned, 428 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: Mary wants to see her parents, you know, like any 429 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: other kid, but she is not allowed to talk to 430 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: her parents. And in this postal Lie Elizabeth world, you 431 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: know how Sibley rivalry always gets intense. Imagine how much 432 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: you would hate your little sister if the moment she's 433 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: born you no longer get to be called a princess. 434 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: That's that's not a good look. That's just mean parenting there. 435 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: It truly is pitting them against each other. So for 436 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: years Mary lived in her infant sisters quarters. Like I 437 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: guess that's almost like Harry Potter living under. 438 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 2: The stairs a little bit. It's not the most posh 439 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: of circumstances. It's you know, she's playing second fiddle, living 440 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 2: in her sister's shadow, essentially with very little acknowledgment from 441 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 2: anyone you know, relegated to a life of solitary. I 442 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 2: don't know, Steing frankly absolutely. 443 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: I also want to take a second real quick, and 444 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: as I know, we've got a lot of fans of 445 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: musicals in the audience. We share that enthusiasm. There is 446 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: a great musical comedy called Six Good Yeah, The Lives 447 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: of the Six Wives of Henry the Eighth and it's 448 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: pretty neat. If you want a quick sample of it, 449 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 1: check out their Tiny Desk concert. 450 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 2: It is historically based. 451 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: It's a tangent, but it's it's worth mentioning because it's 452 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: a sick musical. 453 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 2: Historically based and historically based. There we go. That's perfect. 454 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: That review should be on the pamphlet. 455 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 2: I like it so okay. 456 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, you know the Titanic sinks, A Lincoln has 457 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: a bad time at the play, Mary has a very 458 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: lonely as you said, Harry Potter under the stairs existence 459 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: and Ann Berlin doesn't have the best relationship with Henry. 460 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: She is beheaded in fifteen thirty six on charges of treason, 461 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: or more likely he got tired of her, and Henry 462 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 1: moves on to Jane Seymour Jane Seymore is the opposite 463 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: of Anne Boleyn and every way, at least according to historians, 464 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: She's not considered she's considered kind of playing on the inside. 465 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 2: And the outcoms maybe not the same level. And again 466 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 2: we're not trying to character assassinate a dead historical figure 467 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 2: too much, but it did feel like Blenn had a 468 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 2: bit of a long game going on. 469 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, a bit of a calculation there. 470 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 2: And Jane is a lot more good natured and you know, 471 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 2: considered to be a little bit more like you said, Ben, 472 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 2: a little bit more of vanilla. And she also had 473 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 2: sympathies for Mary because of her own background. Yeah, and 474 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 2: also because Jane Seymour was a decent person. You don't 475 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 2: want to see a kid in unnecessary in traumatic situations, 476 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 2: and she is. Look, Jane Seymour seems kind of like 477 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 2: a normal person in a way. She's very sweet, she 478 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: has a good heart to her. She goes to her 479 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 2: husband Henry and says, come on, man, this is your daughter. 480 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:08,239 Speaker 2: Get her back into the royal court. And Mary is 481 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: she's got a lot going on here because remember she's 482 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 2: still very Catholic. 483 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: This entire time. Her dad made up a church so 484 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: he could get divorced. She ultimately says, I am going 485 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: to let this one go because I love my dad 486 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,479 Speaker 1: and I want to have a relationship with him. I 487 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: don't agree with him spiritually. I'm not going to denounce Catholicism, 488 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: but I I think you know what you did, Pops, 489 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: So there's still going to be some tension. 490 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: Not going to hold out hope for that apology. Don't 491 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 2: think it ever came. So Jane finally gave Henry what 492 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 2: he'd been dreaming of, which was a male heir, and 493 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: unfortunately that led to Jane's passing. Now when she died of. 494 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: Childbirth common not uncommon thing at the time. 495 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, fever took her twelve days after he was born. 496 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 2: And if I'm not mistaken to this, this male heir 497 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: like was very frail and like had hemophilia and it 498 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 2: was like super not particularly effective. Right, didn't he die 499 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 2: at a young age as well? 500 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:33,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's see, Henry the eighth had a had a 501 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: son named Henry, Duke of Cornwall, but that poor kid 502 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: died within weeks of being born. And then the kid 503 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: that Henry has with Jane is Edward the sixth. And 504 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, Ben, this boy was quite feeble 505 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: and considered a bit of a weakling, and that's Edward 506 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: the sixth. He did, however, prove to be quite bloodthirsty 507 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: and not a great dude, and he did die before 508 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: he was able to wreak too much havoc on the country. 509 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 2: Geez. 510 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and look it's an unhappy Brady bunch we're describing. 511 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: Mary is very, very sad to lose Jane Seymour because 512 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: Jane Seymour is kind of the closest thing to a 513 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: maternal figure that she has in her life. At this 514 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: point all of this has happened, Mary is just now 515 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: turning twenty one years old. She's second in line to 516 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: the throne, behind her much younger brother Edward, who we 517 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: just mentioned. Edward gets declared King of England after Henry 518 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: the eighth dies, even though Edward is a literal boy, 519 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: which sounds like alive from my Thinkure should leave. 520 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 2: Yes, a literal boy or it's also like one of 521 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: an insult that Daniel plainsview with a hurl at somebody. 522 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 2: You literal boy. That's good, let's keep that. 523 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: I like it so because this is not unprecedented in 524 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: the story of Royalty. What this means is there will 525 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: be a brain trust of adults. There will be a 526 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: group of folks who are regents, and the kid ruler 527 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: is a figurehead or a mascot until they attain their 528 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: majority and become considered an adult themselves. So the real 529 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: power at this time is a guy named the Duke 530 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: of Northumberland. And this dude is super duper duper Protestant. 531 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: So another bad blow for the super duper duper Catholic Mary. 532 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: As you said, Noel Edward never in the best of health. 533 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: This poor kid. We believe he died from tuberculosis at 534 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: the age of fifteen. And while he is on his deathbed, 535 00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: this Duke of Northumberland gets over to this child, this 536 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: fifteen year old, and says, look, man, before you go, 537 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: I need you to officially make your older sister Mary 538 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: a bastard again. Rebastardize, rebastardizer, my boy, my lad, because, 539 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: my lad, because no, if you don't his logic here is, 540 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: if you don't make it impossible for her to become 541 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: the ruler of England, then she is going to turn 542 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: it back into a Catholic nation. 543 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 2: Oh he wasn't he went wrong. We've been exercising a 544 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 2: lot of empathy for Mary. But let's not forget where 545 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 2: we started with Bloody Mary. That's where we're getting. 546 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, good call, That's why we put that stuff up 547 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: at the front. This is why Northumberland's seventeen year old 548 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: daughter in law becomes Queen Lady Jane Gray. And this 549 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: is a there's a real out of the blue plot 550 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: twist for the public. A lot of people loved Catherine. 551 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: She was the Princess Diana of her time. Princess nailed. 552 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: Lady Jane Gray's reign doesn't last very long. 553 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 2: No, within nine days, Mary usurped Jane for the crown, 554 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 2: and within a few months Mary beheaded Jane for surprise 555 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 2: suppressed treason, the most open ended, vague death sentence in history, 556 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 2: I would argue. 557 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: Yeah. And and the fact that she immediately went to 558 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: the nuclear option death yep, Yeah, that's a precedent. 559 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 2: And she's been stealing, dude, she'd been stealing. 560 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 1: She's been thinking a lot, and her infant sisters making lists, 561 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, checking up twice. Yeah, she came here to 562 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 1: chew gum and killed Protestants and guess what, she didn't 563 00:34:58,320 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: know what gum was. 564 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 2: Gum hadn't been in vintage yet. Yes, Mary, despite being 565 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 2: a bit of a pill herself, wanted nothing more than 566 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 2: to be a mother so much that she experienced a 567 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 2: few of something that I think it might be worth 568 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 2: an exploration onto itself. Phantom pregnancies pseudosciesis is the term 569 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 2: during which her abdomen and breasts would swell as though 570 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 2: she were pregnant. This is a new one to me, Ben, 571 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 2: I don't think I remember this from history class. 572 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a it's a medical condition that can occur, 573 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: so it's not it is a physiological change, right, you 574 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: can see it manifested. I think it'd be Yeah, it'd 575 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: be interesting to do an episode of this. I think 576 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: you're onto something. 577 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 2: Well, it is uncommon, Yeah, it's very It is very 578 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 2: and often attributed directly to to this monarch. 579 00:35:54,520 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: Yeah. In the end, as we all know, Mary ends 580 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: up marrying a Catholic of course, Philip too from Spain. 581 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: She and Philip are both kind of unpopular with their 582 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: respective crowds. They never have issue, or they never have 583 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: a child. Issue is the fancy way you say child 584 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: when we're talking nobility. And the reason they didn't have 585 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: a kid is because their marriage was not romantic Philip 586 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: was not digging Mary. He thought she was unattractive. He 587 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: spent as much time as he could away from her. 588 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: So she Mary unfortunately dies in fifteen fifty eight, most 589 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,280 Speaker 1: likely due to flu or stomach cancer, and her younger 590 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: sister Elizabeth takes the throne. 591 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 2: Yep, and then immediately we entered the Elizabethan era on 592 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 2: day one. It's like we ever, it's the eighties now, 593 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 2: and I want to just really quickly walk back to 594 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 2: something I said earlier. Phantom pregnancy or pseudostiistis it's not. 595 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 2: When I say it was often attributed to Mary, I 596 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 2: just mean that she was probably one of the most 597 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 2: famous people to have suffered from this condition. So when 598 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 2: you look it up, you're going to see stories about 599 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 2: bloody Mary. And I'm not saying this is some sort 600 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 2: of imagined condition. It is very much rare and something 601 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 2: that happens to some women, for sure. 602 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: And that's just because that's the most famous historical figure 603 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: with that case. That's the example you'll see in a 604 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 1: Textbook's right. Yeah, there's another big switcheroo. This is a 605 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: very weird time to be a peasant invested in politics, 606 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: because now that Elizabeth is ascending to the throne. We've 607 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: already switched back and forth from being Catholic to being Protestant. 608 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: We started a whole new church. Elizabeth switches everything back. 609 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 1: So now we're going back to the Church of England. 610 00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: We're done with those Catholic reforms from Bloody Mary, and 611 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 1: we're ushering in a new age of Protestant England. This 612 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: also begins the golden age of Mercantalism, the c of E. 613 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 2: As they often call it, the Church of England. Ben, 614 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 2: I think we need to deliver on a bit of 615 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 2: a promise that we did we made at the top. 616 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 2: We're not quite in two parter territory, but we're gonna 617 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 2: make this one a little bit longer than usual. We're 618 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 2: going to talk a bit about the third aspect of 619 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 2: Bloody Mary, the urban legend of it all. So why 620 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 2: don't we set the scene. I think we may have 621 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,399 Speaker 2: all been there again for me and you. I think 622 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 2: our age it was probably more Candy Man kind of 623 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 2: replaced Bloody Mary because of where that movie kind of 624 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 2: loomed large in the zeitgeist of our youth. So we're 625 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 2: in middle school. It's a Friday night in late winter 626 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 2: and we're maybe having a slumber party. We're not old 627 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 2: enough to drive yet, so at this point we're getting 628 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 2: dropped off by mom and dad. There's nothing left to 629 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 2: watch on TV except for infomercials. What was it the 630 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 2: showtime Ron Pope heel remember those? I don't know about 631 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 2: the George Lopez show. That was apparently Wren's touch point there, 632 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,280 Speaker 2: but I think she's a little younger than we are. 633 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 2: So we resign ourselves to sleep, and one friend suggest 634 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 2: that we play a spooky game because we don't have 635 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 2: phone light. Is a feather stiff as a board maybe, right? 636 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: Or a weedge aboard? You might play with me anyway. Yeah, 637 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: So the rules are as follows. The participant enters a 638 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: darkened room with a lit candle. He or she looks 639 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 1: into a mirror while chanting Bloody Mary's name or a 640 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: phrase a specific number of times. If the ritual is 641 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: performed correctly, Bloody Mary might appear either in the mirror 642 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: or reach out of the mirror and scratch her face, 643 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 1: or be released from the afterlife to haunt him or 644 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,280 Speaker 1: her forever, forever, forever. 645 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and obviously you know Clive Barker was very familiar 646 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,439 Speaker 2: with this urban legend when he created the candy Man 647 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 2: Neathos and took it to the next level with the 648 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 2: hook handy dude reaching out and slaughtering you when you 649 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 2: say his name. I think the first Candy Man movie 650 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 2: is pretty good, and the remake was interesting. 651 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,879 Speaker 1: The remakes interesting. It goes a little more anti hero. 652 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's not perfect, but I did think it 653 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 2: was an interesting attempt, and the first one is pretty cool. Actually, 654 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 2: it's still. 655 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: I was very frightened by the first things get holds up. 656 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: I also want us to shout out this that quotation 657 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: of the of the rough rules that comes from our 658 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: Alma matter how stuff works, So shout out to Deborah 659 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: Ronka for writing that. You know, the game might be 660 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: called candy Man or Bloody Mary, but if you travel 661 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: around the world, you'll see variations. They're all kinds of 662 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,439 Speaker 1: phrases people might say, and it's usually naming some kind 663 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: of Boogeyman esque figure. But it would be funny to 664 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: go to make a kid go in there and just 665 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: say a silly phrase like you have to go in 666 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 1: and you have to say knickerbocker. 667 00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 2: Wibbbe yeah, and then three times and then heapy clown 668 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 2: pops out and hits you over the head with a 669 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 2: squeaky hammer. 670 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 1: Or what is a knickerbocker? 671 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 2: That's the old It's a type of pant. 672 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: It is a pant I type of people. 673 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 2: I want to say, maybe so, and it's what's definitely 674 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 2: a famous hotel in New York for sure, but I 675 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 2: guess I just know it as the pant and the hotel. 676 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 2: There are variations to this, as you mentioned, Ben, you 677 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 2: could alternatively, if you don't want to go with wibbledy 678 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 2: wobble d woo or knickerbocker, you could say, uh, let's 679 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 2: go dark with it, right, I killed your baby, bloody Mary. 680 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 2: But yeah, because you have to. 681 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: You have to poke the bear a little little bit 682 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: me here, or sometimes the mirror would drip blood. Sometimes 683 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: this is very urban legend, the scary stories to tell 684 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: in the dark kind of style. Sometimes the kid who 685 00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:00,320 Speaker 1: dares bloody Mary comes out of you know, the locked 686 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: bathroom with their hair all white and maybe they're mute. 687 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 1: The legends of this or the origin of this strange 688 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: pastime is also kind of ambiguous. It's kind of murky. 689 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,720 Speaker 1: There's a really interesting bit of research that Ren found 690 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 1: arguing that this is symbolically or thematically related to a 691 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: kid's or an adolescent's first experience with menstruation. 692 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's a folklorist who wrote a book called 693 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 2: Bloody Mary in the Mirror, a ritual reflection of prepubescent anxiety, 694 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 2: Alan Dundas, who had this to say about it. Bloody 695 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 2: Mary ritual may not be a significantly accurate portrayal of menstruation, 696 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 2: but it does represent an anticipatory image of a forthcoming 697 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 2: major event in the individual females life cycle. 698 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: And there's a second theory that says Bloody Mary could 699 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:59,240 Speaker 1: be the spirit of more than one notoriously cruel member 700 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: of the nobility, Queen Mary Tudor or Countess Elizabeth Bathory. 701 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: I iced be fascinated with her, and I think I 702 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,800 Speaker 1: think there's a really strong argument that history did her wrong. 703 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 2: Oh really, I don't know about that. Then. I always 704 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,359 Speaker 2: maybe that's just because I you know, I was read 705 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 2: the headlines, but I always associated her with being a 706 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,360 Speaker 2: bloodthirsty individual who would murder female servants so that she 707 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 2: could bathe in their blood in order to stay youthful forever. 708 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 2: What's what's the alternate spin on her story? Well, this 709 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 2: happens a lot. The alternate spin is that the accusations 710 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 2: against her were either jimmied up or goosed, as we've 711 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 2: been saying lately. 712 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, the idea being that someone wanted to remove a 713 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: powerful person from power. She was accused long before Servants 714 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:59,320 Speaker 1: of torturing and killing hundreds of girls and women from 715 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: I think a period of decades from fifteen ninety to 716 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,280 Speaker 1: sixteen ten. Yeah, So, if true, quite the serial killer, 717 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 1: very much a bloody Mary. But why wouldn't you call 718 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 1: her bloody Beth? 719 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 2: No, no, no, it's a good question. Remember that I killed 720 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 2: your baby thing from earlier. You may have already put 721 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 2: this together astute, ridiculous historians, but that may well have 722 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,359 Speaker 2: been a reference to Bloody Mary, Mary Tutor and her 723 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,720 Speaker 2: unfulfilled desire to become a mother. 724 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 3: A real taunt, a real taunt, something like that, right, 725 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 3: And we know this is now a staple of American folklore, 726 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,840 Speaker 3: and you can see her reference through the idea of 727 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 3: this supernatural creature referenced in everything from Beetlejuice to The 728 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,920 Speaker 3: ring the adaptation of Ringu, the Japanese film, and to 729 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 3: as previously mentioned, candy Man. 730 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:58,240 Speaker 1: But if we bring it all back around, and we'really Mary's. 731 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 2: For a little hair dog. Right. 732 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't just popularize the Bloody Mary in their 733 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: neck of the Global Woods. They've been credited with inventing 734 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,200 Speaker 1: the Sidecar, the Blue Lagoon and the White Lady. Think 735 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: I know the sidecar, I don't know the other. 736 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. The sidecar is like I believe a gin cock 737 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 2: Oh look at this. You can go to Harry's Bar 738 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 2: dot com. How helpful, and then it's got a lot 739 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,760 Speaker 2: of really interesting historical bits on it and a list 740 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,880 Speaker 2: of their specialty cocktails, the Boulevardier, the Bloody Marry, the Sidecar, 741 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 2: which is Cognac triple second lemon juice. I do love 742 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 2: a French seventy five Champagne gin lemon juice and a 743 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 2: few drops of absent. I do love classic cocktails. I 744 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 2: don't drink a ton anymore, but when I do, I really, 745 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 2: when I go to a fancy place, I am more 746 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 2: disposed to enjoying one really really tasty classic cocktail. 747 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 1: Boullevardier. Interesting. Well, we hope you found this interesting as well, folks. 748 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: This was a cool exploration that took us in unexpected 749 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: places and shout out to anybody who is sipping a 750 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: bloody Mary. As you tuned in, we we can't wait 751 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: for you to join us when we delve into some 752 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: more unexpected history spoiler with a certain dark night later 753 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,760 Speaker 1: in the week. Meantime, big thanks to our producer Max Williams, 754 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: Big thanks to our guest producer Dylan the Chainsaw fac It. 755 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 2: Huge thanks to Chris Frasciotis and needs Jeff Codes both 756 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 2: here in spirit, Jonathan Strickland, the quizter, Ay j Bahamas. 757 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,399 Speaker 1: Jacob's the Puzzler mm hmm, and big big shout out 758 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 1: to our rude dudes over app Ridiculous Prime. If you 759 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: dig us, you'll dig them. And as Harpal Dylan always says, 760 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: speaking to digging, let's dig up the root of vacos. 761 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 2: Let's do it. Let's see you next time, folks. For 762 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 763 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your Faceavorite shows