WEBVTT - Bonus: Brooklyn Roundtable 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.800 Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:11.520 Sound Argument got It, and we are recording. So as 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.200 somebody who's been doing this for more than twentysomething years, 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.640 this being a trial lawyer, I'd love to know how 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:18.959 you guys are feeling, because candidly, I'd like to feel 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:21.600 a little bit better about kind of the state of play, 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:24.840 because I'm a little bit disheartened by what's been going on. 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:29.200 I'm more than happy to speak on that. I'm currently 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:31.760 working as a legal intern for the New York Civil 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.840 Liberties Union, and I mean their legal policy department. So 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.920 as the jobs decision has come out, um, it's it's 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:43.080 been a really interesting time to be working in civil 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:47.440 rights litigation, and especially to be on the ground at 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:51.360 City Hall in the middle of protests. Yeah, I mean, 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.720 I truly never thought that I would be sitting studying 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.280 for the bar and get a notification on my phone 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.720 saying that Roe v. Wade was overturned like I was 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:03.680 sitting in this seat. I don't think I'll ever forget it, 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:09.119 doing like a MB practice set and then like that, 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.640 I snapped my fingers in case the audio didn't pick 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.120 that up. Then like that, you know, my rights were 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.520 taken away from me. I actually had a similar thought 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.920 like when this all happened, I was thinking, like I 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.840 remember learning about Row and Casey and Grizzwold and all, 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:28.720 like all these cases in comm law just a year ago, 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:30.720 and I think I was with a friend come like 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.200 at work. I remember I was sitting in the courtroom 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.840 waiting actually for a trial to start, and the decision 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.440 came out. In addition to like the just automatic devastation 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.440 and not shocked, because it wasn't a surprise, to be honest, 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:50.080 but like devastation and just confusion, was also like what 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.160 does this mean for the future in terms of our 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:58.880 legal education? Very upset and disheartened because I used to 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:04.000 always say that the courts were a place of recourse. 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.440 The courts were a place that you could go to 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:14.720 get some sense or some semblance of reasoned explanation, decisions 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:18.760 that had some bases that were grounded in law right, 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.880 that had some type of reason to them, And that 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.000 It's been very hard as a woman, as a mother, 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:29.200 as a human to figure out how it's possible to 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:31.840 have somebody regulate your uterus and your vagina but not 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.240 regulate a firearm. I've been hearing a lot of this 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:42.120 rhetoric that this system is broken, the judicial system is broken, um, 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.280 And I disagree with that sentiment in a sense because 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:47.440 I think for a system to be broken, it needs 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:50.520 to be fully functioning to begin with, and I don't 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.920 think that that was ever the case, UM, in any 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:58.440 American institution. To be honest, I think that we are 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:07.480 a society that was founded upon murder and racism and violence, 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.800 and to be an educated American citizen you have to 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:17.919 acknowledge that history. I think we are in extremely hypocritical nation. 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:24.120 We invade other nations on the pretense of morality and 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:28.480 human rights, but in our own backyard we are violating 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.240 the eighth and thirteenth Amendment in prisons, and we are 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:35.040 forcing ten year olds to carry a pregnancy to term 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.280 when they're the victim of rape or incest. And we 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.360 kill or injure over a hundred thousand Americans every year 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:45.680 with guns. So I think I personally have always felt 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:49.200 a sense of urgency and responsibility to advocate for everyone's 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.600 equal rights, and that comes from a place of compassion 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:57.360 and empathy. But I've shifted to a feeling of anger 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.200 in the past couple of weeks when my own own 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:04.360 personal rights have have been under attack and have been threatened. 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.280 Do you feel like you're now even more primed in 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.440 light of all of the civil rights that are kind 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:16.080 of at issue now because of the Supreme Court decisions? 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:18.920 You guys feel like it's made you even more ready 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:21.400 because you've you've had a test run now. I mean, 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:25.280 you guys have have done, you know, mock litigation involving 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.840 civil rights. And that's exactly what's about UM to really 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.120 kind of come to a forefront and every state of 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.040 this land, every state's going to have massive litigation which 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.479 will eventually end up in front of the Supreme Court. Again, 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:41.640 I think uncritical civil rights issues. I think that having 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:46.680 this opportunity to do this particular competition two semesters ago 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:52.200 was very important to me. I never had UM experienced. 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.599 I used to work in personal injury and then I 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:59.480 dabbled with criminal lat but like, this specific competition really 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.560 kind of put me in the center of what it's 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.760 really like. There's so much hate in this world, there's 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.400 so much divide in this world. And again, the whole 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:14.919 competition is about homeless people literally being persecuted because they 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.520 were homeless, and that just adds on to everything and 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:21.000 just intertwining it back to the real questions will be 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.159 way question that you had before. It's just it's so 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:26.919 ironic that we're lost, and so we're supposed to go 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.880 out and defend people and stand up for people's rights. 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:36.520 But I've never felt so hopeless and sad and angry 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.680 then then now, and it's just I'm supposed to go 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:45.320 out there and help people, and I'm just so hopeless 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.760 myself right now. I mean, Antnia, I know that you 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:52.320 want to focus on immigration. No shortage of massive immigration 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.440 issues that have come out of the last administration, and 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:56.320 the one right now there's title for you too that's 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:59.640 going on the remain in Mexico Supreme Court dealt with that, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.159 gave the Biden administration and went on that but tied 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:04.680 affortitude still there. I mean, that's just a small example 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:06.159 of some of the issues that are going on. And 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.360 that's just on the border. That doesn't encompass all immigration issues. 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:11.800 But are you still focusing on that? You think when 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.599 you graduate from law school or has the recent kind 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.640 of slew of what I will editorialize say are bad 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.440 decisions from Scotus changing your mind as well as it 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:24.800 did for Catherine. Yeah, I'm still planning to do immigration law. 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:27.920 That's kind of always been my compass um. This summer, 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.400 I'm working at a public defender's office in New York 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.720 in their immigration practice, and so you're seeing the overlay 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:39.640 of immigration issues with criminal issues, with family issues, with 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:45.080 civil issues, and it's like all of that together. Obviously, 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:50.200 there are severe impacts on this population of folks that 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.880 we're working with, given this terms decisions. But you know, 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.040 for a long time, immigration has been a punching bag. 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:01.520 It's been used as a bargaining chip by our government. Um, 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.360 the Dreamers, they've been used as a bargaining chip. And 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.560 you know, I think you know, folks in this room, 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.840 they'll say, you know, obviously I'm angry, Obviously I'm I'm upset. 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:16.520 But for so long immigration advocates have been dealing with this, 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.760 and our populations have not had access to abortion rights, 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:24.440 they've not had had access to interstate travel, and so 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.320 we have been preparing for this in the immigration world. 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.000 We have always dealt with these issues. And so to 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:36.320 the extent that it's new or different, it is for 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.760 a different population of people. Yeah, I'm I'm still walking 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.640 that path. I think it's the most vulnerable group of 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.880 people that you know you can you can work with 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:49.440 in this country. And I say that with a grain assault, 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.840 of course, because I hope someday that there are more 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:57.120 rights afforded to undocumented folks and people who are seeking 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:01.520 immigration relief and that the system becomes better. But that's 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.520 that's my path. I'm still walking it and and we'll 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:07.080 see how it goes, and hopefully I don't get burned 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:10.040 out in the process. But I'm working on that too. 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:15.240 So it's a journey. I think that there are just 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:17.160 so many different things that are going on in this 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:22.040 world today that if you can't identify with one thing, 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:25.200 you can definitely identify with another or feel like you're 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:30.280 being affective somehow. Just even I remember Antonie and I 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:35.559 participated in UM We did a pro bono clinic with 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.000 Safe Harbor Clinic from Brooklyn Law School to help with 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:44.480 TPS Temporary Protected Status for Ukrainian refugees, and I just 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.600 remember so many people from Brooklyn Law School, from other 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:51.520 schools and other places showing up, you know, maybe no 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:55.000 one having anything to do with Ukraine, having no ancestors 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.200 or family members from there, and people were still willing 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:02.680 to show up and help. And if people are still 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:06.000 willing to do that, then you know, I'm very sure 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:08.240 that there's going to be a lot of students who 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.440 are changing their minds about which kind of law they 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.360 want to practice here and what they want to do 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.320 with their careers in the United States, within the United States. 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:19.920 So I have no doubt that many people are going 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.400 to that might be changing their career paths and what 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.680 they want to practice. And how are you feeling, Catherine? 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.360 I know that your mom was a lawyer in Ukraine, 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.880 so you have a very personal connection to it. How 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.560 are things going and do you how are you feeling 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.640 about the fact that this is still an ongoing war 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:42.000 in Ukraine and it hasn't ceased, and there's been some 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:47.000 recent developments with admission for NATO, etcetera. But I mean, 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.800 it's a lot. So how are things going for you 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.560 and your family? I honestly, every morning I turn on 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:55.760 the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, and 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.239 it's usually like the front page on the on the Internet, 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:04.800 and every day it's just people are dying, cities getting bombed. 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:10.040 It's just insane, and my mom is always on the news. 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.880 Anytime she has free time, she's reading something or listening 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.280 to something and hoping. She like one day gets excited, 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:19.000 she's like, Okay, I think this is going to come 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.080 to an end, and then the next day something horrible 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.439 happens in some part of Ukraine and she's just like, 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.440 oh no, this is going to take a while. And 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.680 we have family that has uh left to poland some 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.480 to Canada. I have family coming in this month of 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:40.199 here to our home, and it's sort of a bittersweet 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:44.080 experience because I'm happy to see them, but I know 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:49.000 why they're here and it breaks my heart. But my mom, 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.760 she's a paralegal and she's always constantly doing research to 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.840 see what kind of lawyers are out there, immigration lawyers 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.360 who can help um, so that she stays connected and 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:04.040 she has information to give out to people who are interested. 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.360 So it's a struggle every day, but we're staying strong 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.560 and we're going to stay positive. It's not a sense 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.400 of anger for myself, but it's a sense of anger 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:19.199 for the fact that time is a finite resource and 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.400 we don't have time to be fighting these old battles 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.800 we have so much progress that still needs to be 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:30.200 made in terms of systemic racism, um, in terms of 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:35.080 institutions like the education system, the criminal justice system, police reform, 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:39.400 police brutality, um. Things that I'm deeply committed to myself, 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:44.680 and we've fought these battles already, and so I'm angry 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.080 in the sense that it's now hindering the progress that 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.839 I'm personally working towards, and I know people who are 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.400 invested in civil rights and civil liberties are working towards 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:59.640 because we just we have so much more work to do. Echoing, 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.440 I'll leave that, I'm going to make a decision to 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.400 try to, you know, keep it together, stay strong, and 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:11.920 still have faith that you know this country well one 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:17.720 day go the right direction. But meeting you, all of you, 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.200 and meeting all of the students underground and law school 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:29.840 and the total unadulterated joy, passion desire to effect change 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.520 makes me feel so much better about where this world 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:37.120 is heading, where my little girl is going to have 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.960 for her future, what type of place she's going to 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:45.040 have a seat at the table. Because of women like you. 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.679 It makes me feel a lot better because we live 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:53.320 in a very difficult world with very selfish people that 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.720 sit in seats of power. So to be able to 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.720 listen to all of you say what you care about 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.360 and how it impacts you and why it motivates you 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.760 to do what you're going to do, helps me breathe 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.360 a sigh of relief to say, Okay, the world's going 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:12.640 to be in a good place and we're gonna be 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.680 and I'm leaving this world, this world of law, the 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.720 world in general, this world is being left in good hands. 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:37.040 For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the i 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.760 Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:41.679 favorite shows.