1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: Sound Argument got It, and we are recording. So as 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: somebody who's been doing this for more than twentysomething years, 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: this being a trial lawyer, I'd love to know how 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: you guys are feeling, because candidly, I'd like to feel 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: a little bit better about kind of the state of play, 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: because I'm a little bit disheartened by what's been going on. 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: I'm more than happy to speak on that. I'm currently 9 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: working as a legal intern for the New York Civil 10 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: Liberties Union, and I mean their legal policy department. So 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: as the jobs decision has come out, um, it's it's 12 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: been a really interesting time to be working in civil 13 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: rights litigation, and especially to be on the ground at 14 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: City Hall in the middle of protests. Yeah, I mean, 15 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: I truly never thought that I would be sitting studying 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: for the bar and get a notification on my phone 17 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: saying that Roe v. Wade was overturned like I was 18 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: sitting in this seat. I don't think I'll ever forget it, 19 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: doing like a MB practice set and then like that, 20 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: I snapped my fingers in case the audio didn't pick 21 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: that up. Then like that, you know, my rights were 22 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: taken away from me. I actually had a similar thought 23 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: like when this all happened, I was thinking, like I 24 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: remember learning about Row and Casey and Grizzwold and all, 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: like all these cases in comm law just a year ago, 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: and I think I was with a friend come like 27 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: at work. I remember I was sitting in the courtroom 28 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: waiting actually for a trial to start, and the decision 29 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: came out. In addition to like the just automatic devastation 30 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: and not shocked, because it wasn't a surprise, to be honest, 31 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: but like devastation and just confusion, was also like what 32 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: does this mean for the future in terms of our 33 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: legal education? Very upset and disheartened because I used to 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: always say that the courts were a place of recourse. 35 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: The courts were a place that you could go to 36 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: get some sense or some semblance of reasoned explanation, decisions 37 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: that had some bases that were grounded in law right, 38 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: that had some type of reason to them, And that 39 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: It's been very hard as a woman, as a mother, 40 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: as a human to figure out how it's possible to 41 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: have somebody regulate your uterus and your vagina but not 42 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: regulate a firearm. I've been hearing a lot of this 43 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: rhetoric that this system is broken, the judicial system is broken, um, 44 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: And I disagree with that sentiment in a sense because 45 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: I think for a system to be broken, it needs 46 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: to be fully functioning to begin with, and I don't 47 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: think that that was ever the case, UM, in any 48 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: American institution. To be honest, I think that we are 49 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: a society that was founded upon murder and racism and violence, 50 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: and to be an educated American citizen you have to 51 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: acknowledge that history. I think we are in extremely hypocritical nation. 52 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: We invade other nations on the pretense of morality and 53 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: human rights, but in our own backyard we are violating 54 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: the eighth and thirteenth Amendment in prisons, and we are 55 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: forcing ten year olds to carry a pregnancy to term 56 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: when they're the victim of rape or incest. And we 57 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: kill or injure over a hundred thousand Americans every year 58 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: with guns. So I think I personally have always felt 59 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: a sense of urgency and responsibility to advocate for everyone's 60 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: equal rights, and that comes from a place of compassion 61 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: and empathy. But I've shifted to a feeling of anger 62 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: in the past couple of weeks when my own own 63 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: personal rights have have been under attack and have been threatened. 64 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you're now even more primed in 65 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: light of all of the civil rights that are kind 66 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: of at issue now because of the Supreme Court decisions? 67 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: You guys feel like it's made you even more ready 68 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: because you've you've had a test run now. I mean, 69 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: you guys have have done, you know, mock litigation involving 70 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: civil rights. And that's exactly what's about UM to really 71 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: kind of come to a forefront and every state of 72 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: this land, every state's going to have massive litigation which 73 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: will eventually end up in front of the Supreme Court. Again, 74 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: I think uncritical civil rights issues. I think that having 75 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: this opportunity to do this particular competition two semesters ago 76 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: was very important to me. I never had UM experienced. 77 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: I used to work in personal injury and then I 78 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: dabbled with criminal lat but like, this specific competition really 79 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: kind of put me in the center of what it's 80 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: really like. There's so much hate in this world, there's 81 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: so much divide in this world. And again, the whole 82 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 1: competition is about homeless people literally being persecuted because they 83 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: were homeless, and that just adds on to everything and 84 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: just intertwining it back to the real questions will be 85 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: way question that you had before. It's just it's so 86 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: ironic that we're lost, and so we're supposed to go 87 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: out and defend people and stand up for people's rights. 88 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: But I've never felt so hopeless and sad and angry 89 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: then then now, and it's just I'm supposed to go 90 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: out there and help people, and I'm just so hopeless 91 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: myself right now. I mean, Antnia, I know that you 92 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: want to focus on immigration. No shortage of massive immigration 93 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: issues that have come out of the last administration, and 94 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: the one right now there's title for you too that's 95 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: going on the remain in Mexico Supreme Court dealt with that, 96 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: gave the Biden administration and went on that but tied 97 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: affortitude still there. I mean, that's just a small example 98 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: of some of the issues that are going on. And 99 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: that's just on the border. That doesn't encompass all immigration issues. 100 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: But are you still focusing on that? You think when 101 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: you graduate from law school or has the recent kind 102 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: of slew of what I will editorialize say are bad 103 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: decisions from Scotus changing your mind as well as it 104 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: did for Catherine. Yeah, I'm still planning to do immigration law. 105 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: That's kind of always been my compass um. This summer, 106 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: I'm working at a public defender's office in New York 107 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: in their immigration practice, and so you're seeing the overlay 108 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: of immigration issues with criminal issues, with family issues, with 109 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: civil issues, and it's like all of that together. Obviously, 110 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: there are severe impacts on this population of folks that 111 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: we're working with, given this terms decisions. But you know, 112 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: for a long time, immigration has been a punching bag. 113 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: It's been used as a bargaining chip by our government. Um, 114 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: the Dreamers, they've been used as a bargaining chip. And 115 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, I think you know, folks in this room, 116 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: they'll say, you know, obviously I'm angry, Obviously I'm I'm upset. 117 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: But for so long immigration advocates have been dealing with this, 118 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: and our populations have not had access to abortion rights, 119 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: they've not had had access to interstate travel, and so 120 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: we have been preparing for this in the immigration world. 121 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: We have always dealt with these issues. And so to 122 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: the extent that it's new or different, it is for 123 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: a different population of people. Yeah, I'm I'm still walking 124 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: that path. I think it's the most vulnerable group of 125 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: people that you know you can you can work with 126 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: in this country. And I say that with a grain assault, 127 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: of course, because I hope someday that there are more 128 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: rights afforded to undocumented folks and people who are seeking 129 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: immigration relief and that the system becomes better. But that's 130 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: that's my path. I'm still walking it and and we'll 131 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: see how it goes, and hopefully I don't get burned 132 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: out in the process. But I'm working on that too. 133 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: So it's a journey. I think that there are just 134 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: so many different things that are going on in this 135 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: world today that if you can't identify with one thing, 136 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: you can definitely identify with another or feel like you're 137 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: being affective somehow. Just even I remember Antonie and I 138 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 1: participated in UM We did a pro bono clinic with 139 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: Safe Harbor Clinic from Brooklyn Law School to help with 140 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: TPS Temporary Protected Status for Ukrainian refugees, and I just 141 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: remember so many people from Brooklyn Law School, from other 142 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: schools and other places showing up, you know, maybe no 143 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: one having anything to do with Ukraine, having no ancestors 144 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: or family members from there, and people were still willing 145 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: to show up and help. And if people are still 146 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: willing to do that, then you know, I'm very sure 147 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: that there's going to be a lot of students who 148 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: are changing their minds about which kind of law they 149 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: want to practice here and what they want to do 150 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: with their careers in the United States, within the United States. 151 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: So I have no doubt that many people are going 152 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: to that might be changing their career paths and what 153 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: they want to practice. And how are you feeling, Catherine? 154 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: I know that your mom was a lawyer in Ukraine, 155 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: so you have a very personal connection to it. How 156 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: are things going and do you how are you feeling 157 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: about the fact that this is still an ongoing war 158 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: in Ukraine and it hasn't ceased, and there's been some 159 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: recent developments with admission for NATO, etcetera. But I mean, 160 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: it's a lot. So how are things going for you 161 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: and your family? I honestly, every morning I turn on 162 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, and 163 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,239 Speaker 1: it's usually like the front page on the on the Internet, 164 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: and every day it's just people are dying, cities getting bombed. 165 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: It's just insane, and my mom is always on the news. 166 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: Anytime she has free time, she's reading something or listening 167 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: to something and hoping. She like one day gets excited, 168 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: she's like, Okay, I think this is going to come 169 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: to an end, and then the next day something horrible 170 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: happens in some part of Ukraine and she's just like, 171 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: oh no, this is going to take a while. And 172 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: we have family that has uh left to poland some 173 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: to Canada. I have family coming in this month of 174 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: here to our home, and it's sort of a bittersweet 175 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: experience because I'm happy to see them, but I know 176 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: why they're here and it breaks my heart. But my mom, 177 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: she's a paralegal and she's always constantly doing research to 178 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: see what kind of lawyers are out there, immigration lawyers 179 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: who can help um, so that she stays connected and 180 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: she has information to give out to people who are interested. 181 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: So it's a struggle every day, but we're staying strong 182 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: and we're going to stay positive. It's not a sense 183 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: of anger for myself, but it's a sense of anger 184 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: for the fact that time is a finite resource and 185 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: we don't have time to be fighting these old battles 186 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: we have so much progress that still needs to be 187 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: made in terms of systemic racism, um, in terms of 188 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: institutions like the education system, the criminal justice system, police reform, 189 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: police brutality, um. Things that I'm deeply committed to myself, 190 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: and we've fought these battles already, and so I'm angry 191 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: in the sense that it's now hindering the progress that 192 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: I'm personally working towards, and I know people who are 193 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: invested in civil rights and civil liberties are working towards 194 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: because we just we have so much more work to do. Echoing, 195 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: I'll leave that, I'm going to make a decision to 196 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: try to, you know, keep it together, stay strong, and 197 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: still have faith that you know this country well one 198 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: day go the right direction. But meeting you, all of you, 199 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: and meeting all of the students underground and law school 200 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: and the total unadulterated joy, passion desire to effect change 201 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: makes me feel so much better about where this world 202 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: is heading, where my little girl is going to have 203 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: for her future, what type of place she's going to 204 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: have a seat at the table. Because of women like you. 205 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: It makes me feel a lot better because we live 206 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: in a very difficult world with very selfish people that 207 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: sit in seats of power. So to be able to 208 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: listen to all of you say what you care about 209 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: and how it impacts you and why it motivates you 210 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: to do what you're going to do, helps me breathe 211 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: a sigh of relief to say, Okay, the world's going 212 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: to be in a good place and we're gonna be 213 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: and I'm leaving this world, this world of law, the 214 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: world in general, this world is being left in good hands. 215 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the i 216 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your 217 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: favorite shows.