Speaker 1: We really suffer when we think we're the only ones.
Speaker 1: But we find a lot of healing and freedom and
Speaker 1: community and in seeing ourselves in the experiences of others.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 2: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 2: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 2: think ring true, and yet for many of us, our
Speaker 2: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 2: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 2: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 2: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 2: just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 2: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 2: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 2: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 2: for joining us. Our guests on this episode are Brandy
Speaker 2: Lust and Ginny Gay. Brandy is the founder of Learning
Speaker 2: Lab Consulting and the author of Myths of Being Human,
Speaker 2: Four Paths to Connect with What Matters. She's also co
Speaker 2: host of the Something to Normalize podcast. Jinny Gay is
Speaker 2: a certified mindfulness teacher through the Mindfulness Training Institute and
Speaker 2: is the other co host of the Something to Normalize podcast. Today, Eric, Brandy,
Speaker 2: and Jenny discussed the topics, personal experiences, and the upcoming
Speaker 2: season two of Something to Normalize.
Speaker 3: Ginny, Brandy, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4: Hello, it's so nice to be here, Eric, Jenny, Hello.
Speaker 1: Brandy, Hello, Eric Kello. Listeners. Yeah, it's so nice to
Speaker 1: be three of us here together.
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know Ginny obviously, or probably because she's been
Speaker 3: on a bunch of episodes. You might know Brandy because
Speaker 3: we released their podcast, Something to Normalize in our feed
Speaker 3: earlier this spring, and Brandy was also a guest on
Speaker 3: the show. Previously, I interviewed her at some strange Columbus
Speaker 3: podcast event.
Speaker 4: That was really funny. Actually, I think we interviewed to
Speaker 4: an audience of five.
Speaker 5: Maybe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a low turnout, that's for sure. Anyway,
Speaker 3: it was fun and so I'm happy to talk with
Speaker 3: both of you again, and we're going to be talking
Speaker 3: about your podcast, Something to Normalize, but more specifically some
Speaker 3: of the topics that you cover there and your friendship
Speaker 3: which really sort of underpins the podcast, which is really
Speaker 3: interesting because I hadn't put two and two together yet.
Speaker 3: But my friendship with Chris was the foundation of this podcast,
Speaker 3: Like I started it because I wanted to be with
Speaker 3: him more, and so it's interesting that yours has that
Speaker 3: same element to it. But we'll start like we always do,
Speaker 3: with the parable and the parable. There's a grandparent who's
Speaker 3: talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there
Speaker 3: are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle.
Speaker 3: One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness
Speaker 3: and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf,
Speaker 3: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 3: the grandchild stops. They think about it for a second.
Speaker 3: They look up at their grandparent and they say, well,
Speaker 3: which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed.
Speaker 3: So I'd like to start off by asking you, first, Brandy,
Speaker 3: and maybe Genio pipe in after that, what that parable
Speaker 3: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 3: that you do.
Speaker 4: One of the things that I thought about reflecting upon
Speaker 4: this parable before our conversation today is the discernment that
Speaker 4: it takes to know what the good wolf is for
Speaker 4: us moment to moment, and that that's not always completely clear.
Speaker 4: And one of the most supportive ways that I've found
Speaker 4: to do that discernment is through friendship and through the
Speaker 4: support networks that hold me up when I am feeling
Speaker 4: really fuzzy inside. And there's a lot of great research
Speaker 4: that supports us. I think about therapeutic relationships, the concept
Speaker 4: of unconditional positive regard, and how that unconditional positive regard
Speaker 4: is actually a therapeutic intervention in and of itself. That
Speaker 4: is what makes the therapy effective. And I think we
Speaker 4: can do that for one another. We can create those
Speaker 4: positive corrective experiences that help us to see through our
Speaker 4: trauma and our patterns to really know what's right for us.
Speaker 4: And so I thought about that just that, you know,
Speaker 4: knowing the good wolf isn't just about our individuality. It's
Speaker 4: about who we surround ourselves with and how they're able
Speaker 4: to support us in that process.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I love that. I mean I often say, you know,
Speaker 3: discernment happens in community. Yeah, right, that's how it happens
Speaker 3: because we get lost inside ourselves and point about not
Speaker 3: knowing the good wolf and bad wolf. I had a
Speaker 3: conversation recently with the artist Maclamore about addiction and recovery,
Speaker 3: and he said something really interesting because he was talking
Speaker 3: about how, you know, when we get to full blown addiction.
Speaker 3: For those of us that are addicts, our bad wolf
Speaker 3: is obvious and total monster. Yeah, But the slide from
Speaker 3: I'm in a good place with recovery to that place
Speaker 3: is this slide down, and you don't necessarily see it
Speaker 3: along the way because it's subtle and one little behavior
Speaker 3: like well, you know, maybe I didn't quite fully tell
Speaker 3: the truth. There no big deal, right, And so I
Speaker 3: think you're right that we do need help, yeah, from
Speaker 3: others in seeing you know, am I feeding my good wolf?
Speaker 3: Am I acting in integrity that sort of thing?
Speaker 4: Yes? I think in those supportive relationships. One of the
Speaker 4: things that it provides to us is a way for
Speaker 4: use the word integrity, which I love that word, but
Speaker 4: I love it less in the context of morals and
Speaker 4: more in the context of wholeness. Yes, And so what
Speaker 4: does it mean to act out of my own wholeness
Speaker 4: in this moment? And one of the ways that we
Speaker 4: are able to discern that is in relationships where we
Speaker 4: feel safe, we can begin to find our truth and
Speaker 4: our voice. And when we feel safe expressing our voice
Speaker 4: in those relationship that are really supportive that we grow
Speaker 4: our ability to do that in other situations and even
Speaker 4: those that feel unsafe to us, which I think is important.
Speaker 1: I will say too. I mean, I think that our
Speaker 1: friendships can be such touchstones to parts of ourselves that
Speaker 1: we at least I can speak from my experience that
Speaker 1: I can lose sight of or lose access to and
Speaker 1: really difficult moments. I mean, I know, Brandy, one of
Speaker 1: the things I've so appreciated about our friendship is the
Speaker 1: way that you when you listen to me, like when
Speaker 1: you respond, you ask me questions to reflect on that
Speaker 1: point me back towards the highest best version of myself
Speaker 1: that I've expressed to you that I really want to
Speaker 1: live into, and you help me reorient to those places
Speaker 1: in the way you ask questions and the way you
Speaker 1: reflect things back to me. And you also do this
Speaker 1: in a way that doesn't have agenda. It seems to
Speaker 1: just be a genuine curiosity coming from a place of
Speaker 1: like knowing where I want to be headed in this
Speaker 1: unconditional positive regard and the power of that. I am
Speaker 1: just continually struck by that. Yet it helps us be
Speaker 1: in a place of this really wise discernment that otherwise yeah,
Speaker 1: I can lose access to inside myself. I can get
Speaker 1: kind of, like Eric says, lost lost inside myself. So
Speaker 1: it's a jewel in this like crown of life that
Speaker 1: is front and center for both of us.
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been really beautiful to watch your guys friendship blossom.
Speaker 3: And I think it's really hopeful because you guys are
Speaker 3: I mean, you're you're not spring chickens.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, okay.
Speaker 3: You're firmly in your adult years. I just put it
Speaker 3: that way.
Speaker 6: Sure, And it is harder and harder bring chickens to
Speaker 6: make deep, really good friendships, right, it's more of a challenge, right,
Speaker 6: And so but I find that you guys have done that,
Speaker 6: and that it's been so deep and wonderful, and you
Speaker 6: guys both so appreciated.
Speaker 3: It's a really hopeful story for people who feel like, hey,
Speaker 3: I don't have enough friends, or I wish I had
Speaker 3: different friends or more friends.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think it's important to have those stories
Speaker 4: of hope because we are in a time in history
Speaker 4: where friendship is first of all, it's understudied in comparison
Speaker 4: to other types of relationships, which shows that we don't
Speaker 4: value it in the same way that we value romantic
Speaker 4: partnerships or we value families. And at the same time,
Speaker 4: when folks are doing research on what people need, universally
Speaker 4: we are experiencing more loneliness than we've ever experienced before.
Speaker 4: I think the amount of people who have said that
Speaker 4: they have more than like a couple of supportive friendships
Speaker 4: has decreased over the last ten years, and universally, in
Speaker 4: that same population, people want more friends. And so I
Speaker 4: think that this is something that folks are seeking and
Speaker 4: one of their since that we are unable to have
Speaker 4: it is because we don't put that value on those
Speaker 4: types of relationships. We don't see them as primary. And
Speaker 4: I know for me, and I've talked Genny's ear off
Speaker 4: about this, for me, friendships are primary relationships totally.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think for me too, like as you
Speaker 1: pointed out, Eric, that at our age, we can still
Speaker 1: find friendships. It's interesting because you know, the friends that
Speaker 1: I have really connected with at different stages in my life,
Speaker 1: there's value in that friendship. Like the friends that I've
Speaker 1: made when I was very young, for example, with whom
Speaker 1: I'm still very good friends have this incredible value of
Speaker 1: having experienced and witnessed you know, the arc of life
Speaker 1: together thus far, and that is incredibly precious, right, And
Speaker 1: you know, with Brandy, having met and connected with her
Speaker 1: at this stage of my life, when I feel, you know,
Speaker 1: in my forties, I feel more aware of who I
Speaker 1: am at a deeper level, having more clarity of what's
Speaker 1: important to me, what my values are, what I'm looking
Speaker 1: for like in a friendship. Having now been able to
Speaker 1: connect with you, Brandy in this place in my life,
Speaker 1: this friendship feels so deeply rich and edifying and enjoyable
Speaker 1: in a way that is really unique. Yeah, And so yeah,
Speaker 1: I think not only is it possible to meet people
Speaker 1: that like will become the most important people in your life,
Speaker 1: you may not have even met them yet, which is
Speaker 1: really a hopeful and exciting kind of thing. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's possible, and there's just such a unique preciousness to
Speaker 1: meeting friends at different stages in life.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I'm just thinking about one of the things that I've
Speaker 4: read about friendship is that we have this real dichotomy
Speaker 4: between romantic relationships and friendships, And so much of what
Speaker 4: you said also reminds me of how people talk about, Well,
Speaker 4: I met my partner when I was a teenager versus
Speaker 4: I met my partner when I was forty, and the
Speaker 4: benefits of all of those things, and there are more
Speaker 4: from the reading that I've done, there are more similarities
Speaker 4: than differences when it comes to like friendships and what
Speaker 4: they bring to our lives especially, And one more thing
Speaker 4: that I just want to say about this to talk about, like,
Speaker 4: you know, the benefit of having these different types of
Speaker 4: relationships in our lives. I'm sure you've both seen Esther
Speaker 4: Perel's talk her ted x talk about romantic relationships and
Speaker 4: the pressure that we put on our romantic relationships to
Speaker 4: really be not only primary, but to cover like so
Speaker 4: many different basis for us. You know, if we are
Speaker 4: in a relationship with someone, we might also be co
Speaker 4: parenting with them, We're sharing financial responsibilities, we might be
Speaker 4: sharing elder care, like all of these things. And like,
Speaker 4: I think one of the things that friendship provides is
Speaker 4: this sense of like role, clarity and a real purpose
Speaker 4: because the role of the relationship is to meet one
Speaker 4: another's emotional needs moment to moment, and so there aren't
Speaker 4: all of these competing priorities that we're trying to balance
Speaker 4: at the same time. And I think that's why they're
Speaker 4: really ripe for that unconditional positive regard and for that
Speaker 4: discernment partnership, because it's the purpose of friendship, Like that's
Speaker 4: the only purpose of friendship, and it for me has
Speaker 4: just made it. I mean, it's the light of my life,
Speaker 4: like Ginny will tell you. In addition to Ginny, I
Speaker 4: have three other very close friends. She knows who they are,
Speaker 4: she knows their life histories and their names, and when
Speaker 4: I'm checking in with her, I'm calling them into being.
Speaker 4: And I think that that support network. I imagine it
Speaker 4: almost like you know, there's this net, and each one
Speaker 4: of these support people are like this point of light.
Speaker 4: And when I am going through a hard time, I
Speaker 4: feel that I'm not alone, Like that's what anchors me
Speaker 4: into my space. And I feel the support of Ginny
Speaker 4: when she's not there, I feel the support of my friends.
Speaker 4: Autumn is another person, and Harmony and Amy and these
Speaker 4: are just people in my life who, like I can't
Speaker 4: do life without that and do it well.
Speaker 1: It feels like such an honor to be your friend,
Speaker 1: I mean really, because I agree, I feel your support
Speaker 1: when you're not even there. And I think one of
Speaker 1: the reasons that we connect on such a deep level.
Speaker 1: Is that we met in a context that at least
Speaker 1: in an environment and in a context where things that
Speaker 1: were talked about were things that were deeply important to us, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to ask a little bit about
Speaker 3: the formation of your friendship. I'll let you guys tell
Speaker 3: a story.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean, so it's interesting because you guys,
Speaker 1: Brandy and Eric are actually friends for a long time
Speaker 1: and friends before Brandy and I were friends, So you
Speaker 1: guys had that connection. So Eric, you introduced me to Brandy.
Speaker 1: We met actually at a like a breakfast that the
Speaker 1: three of us went to, but then there was a
Speaker 1: while that before we saw each other the next time,
Speaker 1: and the point I really consider being like the beginning
Speaker 1: of our friendship. Brandy was at this meeting that you know,
Speaker 1: you're the host of our local chapter of Creative Mornings,
Speaker 1: and we met again at a meeting where Eric was speaking.
Speaker 1: I think was it that one or was it the
Speaker 1: one before? Anyway, what I remember is you and I
Speaker 1: just kind of looking at each other and going like
Speaker 1: we need to get together, Like you're someone that I
Speaker 1: want to know, Like I just have a sense that
Speaker 1: I want to know you better and I remember feeling
Speaker 1: so intimidated by you. I felt like you were this
Speaker 1: person that was such a doer and like, you know,
Speaker 1: somebody that really was like doing really important things in
Speaker 1: this community through Creative Mornings, and I just was like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I don't know if I'm like even
Speaker 1: good enough to be friends with you. Like I was
Speaker 1: so intimidated, but yet I knew you were somebody that
Speaker 1: I wanted to know better. And so I'll pause there
Speaker 1: for a second and just say that, like Creative Mornings
Speaker 1: is this incredible community that Brandy has really helped cultivate,
Speaker 1: and things that are discussed there are and Brandy, maybe
Speaker 1: you should explain what it really is. But this is
Speaker 1: what I mean by like, we connected on a deeper level.
Speaker 1: We connected in a place where people gather that are
Speaker 1: all I guess rallying behind and around and interested in
Speaker 1: kind of this same topic, which is and I'll let
Speaker 1: you explain that. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, So what we say is that we bring together
Speaker 4: open minded humans to experience authentic connection and ignite a
Speaker 4: sense of community. And when we have a speaker like
Speaker 4: Eric who spoke about the connection between spirituality and creativity,
Speaker 4: we have a conversation about that as a community where
Speaker 4: we encourage people to meet in small groups and really
Speaker 4: dive into that topic and connect with the speaker on
Speaker 4: a deeper level. Like I remember when Eric spoke, Actually
Speaker 4: Dante wood Spikes, who is a local Columbus sort of
Speaker 4: locally famous. I guess you could say, like stood up
Speaker 4: and told Eric basically how much he meant to him,
Speaker 4: since they did a ted X talk together, and it
Speaker 4: was a super intimate moment that we all witnessed together.
Speaker 4: And I remember that as just being like, Wow, that's
Speaker 4: what this is about. This is about like us having
Speaker 4: that authentic communal experience of connection. And Jinny, I just
Speaker 4: want to say you have shared with me that you
Speaker 4: felt that way, and that was never a thought in
Speaker 4: my mind. And I just remember like you are such
Speaker 4: a bright, like effervescent, warm presence and I felt really
Speaker 4: magnetized toward you, and I just wanted to spend time
Speaker 4: with you, and we ended up sort of planning it
Speaker 4: a date and we went on a walk by this
Speaker 4: river that we were both able to drive to, and
Speaker 4: I think we walked for a couple of hours and
Speaker 4: we covered everything from spiritual teachers to psychedelic experiences to
Speaker 4: like what is enlightenment to what do you do in
Speaker 4: a dark night of the soul? I mean, like the
Speaker 4: most intense things, like I was going through something in
Speaker 4: that moment, and you met me where I was just
Speaker 4: like right where I was, which I think we even
Speaker 4: talked about this. I was scared I was going to
Speaker 4: have what Brene Brown calls like a vulnerability hangover, which
Speaker 4: I didn't have that, and I think we talked about that.
Speaker 4: But one of the things that I thought might be
Speaker 4: interesting for us to discuss that folks who have listened
Speaker 4: to the show may not be aware of, is that
Speaker 4: we wanted to partner together in a more real way
Speaker 4: almost immediately. And I was in this professional transition where
Speaker 4: I actually thought I was going to leave my business behind,
Speaker 4: and I had this lead someone had just reached out
Speaker 4: to me. And at the very end of our conversation,
Speaker 4: you had just gotten your mindfulness teacher credential, and these
Speaker 4: folks were reaching out for like emotion regulation in schools,
Speaker 4: And I was like, Hey, I have this lead. Would
Speaker 4: you be interested in me just passing this on to
Speaker 4: you and then maybe you could sort of share with
Speaker 4: folks like what this lead ended up being.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, So it was essentially a person in
Speaker 1: a school district who was looking for a consultant to
Speaker 1: come on and throughout the year once a month delivered
Speaker 1: some training around this idea that Brandy just mentioned around
Speaker 1: you know, kind of social emotional learning, but emotional support
Speaker 1: and regulation for teachers. And I was so excited by
Speaker 1: the idea at first because I have a background in education,
Speaker 1: That's what was my major in college. And I've been
Speaker 1: a teacher in a professional setting too, with adults in
Speaker 1: corporate America, and so I was like, you know, this
Speaker 1: is just such a great intersection of like, you know,
Speaker 1: my experience and expertise in education meets my experience and
Speaker 1: expertise in the emotional world and dealing with thoughts and
Speaker 1: feelings and emotional regulation. So it's really excited. So I
Speaker 1: took a call with this woman and learned a bit
Speaker 1: more about it and realized that it actually was larger
Speaker 1: in quite an open scale large, like you know, even
Speaker 1: that just the financial piece was like with.
Speaker 4: Twenty thousand dollars at least at about eighty dollars.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I report back to Brandy. I'm like, so
Speaker 1: here's the skinny, Like, here's the deal. Here's the rundown,
Speaker 1: And how did that land on you?
Speaker 4: I mean, it was shocking. There was so much grief,
Speaker 4: There was so much surprise. There was because I felt
Speaker 4: like I was leaving all of this behind and like
Speaker 4: also wanting to be like generous and spirit toward you
Speaker 4: and what was happening for you and this person that
Speaker 4: I had met for such a short time. I now
Speaker 4: felt like I was passing the torch for this work
Speaker 4: that I had been doing for you know, almost a decade.
Speaker 4: And so what ended up happening is that you and
Speaker 4: I had very intense discernment conversations around this opportunity. We
Speaker 4: discussed working together, We discussed you taking on the opportunity
Speaker 4: and me supporting you in the background, and we discussed
Speaker 4: you not taking the opportunity and me not taking the
Speaker 4: opportunity at all because the client was just ready to move.
Speaker 4: And what I remember about that time is how we,
Speaker 4: with such a new budding friendship, were able to hold
Speaker 4: the tension of all of those things together between the
Speaker 4: two of us. And I knew after that experience that
Speaker 4: you and I could do anything together.
Speaker 1: It's so true. I love it. But you're right, because
Speaker 1: you and I both brought a degree of honesty, and
Speaker 1: I think we really intentionally brought this degree of honesty
Speaker 1: to one another around like, here's what's going on inside
Speaker 1: me about this, yeah, and here's where it feels exciting,
Speaker 1: Here's what it feels like you said, grief, or here's
Speaker 1: where I'm like, I feel intimidated or scared or unsure,
Speaker 1: And here's different options of how this could play out.
Speaker 1: And you're right. We sort of sat in the tension
Speaker 1: and then in discernment and in honesty and connection and conversation,
Speaker 1: and we really worked our way through this and that
Speaker 1: ended up being a no. It was a past. I
Speaker 1: passed on it. Yeah, you passed on it, which was
Speaker 1: hard because it was so much money like that, Let's
Speaker 1: be honest. I mean that was hard. But we both,
Speaker 1: through this discernment process were able to get really clear
Speaker 1: about what the opportunity was, what it was going to require,
Speaker 1: and did it align or not with the work in
Speaker 1: the world that we really wanted to be doing. And
Speaker 1: that was the powerful experience.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it makes me think about you know, the third
Speaker 4: which is like this also a concept in therapy, but
Speaker 4: it's like there's me and then there's you, and then
Speaker 4: there's this thing that we make between us, and we
Speaker 4: can name it and we can describe it, and we
Speaker 4: can talk about it. But there's this power and like
Speaker 4: when people come together and then we create something together.
Speaker 4: And I think that space that we created for the
Speaker 4: two of us during that time in such an intense
Speaker 4: experience just has served us so well. Yeah, that's the
Speaker 4: power of friendship in its greatest form, is that we
Speaker 4: both had to sit with ourselves in our discernment. I
Speaker 4: remember at one point you were like, I'm going to
Speaker 4: go meditate for five minutes. I'll call you back. And
Speaker 4: you know, we both sat in our own discernment, in
Speaker 4: our own integrity, we shared our truth, we were both
Speaker 4: able to hold that truth for one another, and I
Speaker 4: think something just really beautiful came out of that.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I'd love to hear from you, Eric, like what has
Speaker 4: friendship represented in your life? Like as you're hearing these
Speaker 4: and maybe not even related to this experience that we're
Speaker 4: having together, but you know, you talked about Chris and
Speaker 4: how that's been the beginning of your show, and I
Speaker 4: know of some other close friends you have and how
Speaker 4: they've been supportive for you, Like, how does that show
Speaker 4: up in your life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think friendship has always been really really important
Speaker 3: to me. I was reflecting to Ginny this morning. I
Speaker 3: was doing a little bit of journaling about childhood events,
Speaker 3: and I realized that, like two things that I haven't
Speaker 3: ever really thought about or processed, but like twice in
Speaker 3: my first eight years, my best friends like moved away.
Speaker 3: I mean when I say like best friend, they were
Speaker 3: like the center of my world in so many ways,
Speaker 3: particularly given what was happening at home with me. So
Speaker 3: friendship has always been very central to me. And so
Speaker 3: I've been lucky to have friends like Chris since I
Speaker 3: was eighteen, and my friend Steve since I was like fourteen,
Speaker 3: and my friend Joe since I was eighteen, and then
Speaker 3: I've had friends that I met through AA. I mean
Speaker 3: there were a lot of really strong friendships there. I
Speaker 3: think there is something, and it's similar to what you
Speaker 3: guys are describing when our friendship is around common values
Speaker 3: or interests or alignments versus just convenience. And what I
Speaker 3: mean by convenience, I don't mean that in a negative way.
Speaker 3: I just mean it's like, well, they're your friend because
Speaker 3: they live two doors down, or they're your friend because
Speaker 3: they ended up in your college dorm, or they're your
Speaker 3: friend because they were in a classroom with you. Right
Speaker 3: Whereas when we meet, Jinny and I met connecting over
Speaker 3: this kind of work, that was the beginning of our relationship, right,
Speaker 3: it was grounded in that. And so and I've always
Speaker 3: found there's a lot of data out there about how
Speaker 3: long it takes to make a friend, is how much
Speaker 3: time it takes to build a good friendship as an adult,
Speaker 3: and it's a long time. But what's interesting is I
Speaker 3: don't agree with all that data because I think it
Speaker 3: misses friendships that are formed in a particular way, and
Speaker 3: friendships that are formed around right away, deep connection around
Speaker 3: things that matter, and as you guys described, a vulnerability
Speaker 3: and an openness, those friendships can happen relatively quickly. In comparison,
Speaker 3: I think the studies I've seen in something like one
Speaker 3: hundred hours. Right, my experience is with the right person
Speaker 3: and the right type of vulnerability, and then that process
Speaker 3: can be very accelerated. Now, I'm not suggesting that you
Speaker 3: walk into your volunteer activity next week and suddenly discuss
Speaker 3: childhood trauma, right Like, there's a time and a place
Speaker 3: for all those things. But that's been my experience, and
Speaker 3: so a lot of my friendships formed out of my
Speaker 3: recovery from alcoholism, right, And that's a pretty vulnerable place,
Speaker 3: like twelve step programs are vulnerable places. You know, my
Speaker 3: other best friend today, Bayla, he's been on the show,
Speaker 3: Like when I came back after drinking again. He was
Speaker 3: my sponsor for a couple of years, and then it
Speaker 3: just became just friendship after that. And so I do
Speaker 3: think that friendship has been really important to me, and
Speaker 3: I agree with you. I think we need more than
Speaker 3: simply one relationship in our lives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think too. The reason to talk about
Speaker 1: all of this is my fear is that people might
Speaker 1: listen and be like, you know, if they don't have
Speaker 1: the kinds of friendships right that we're talking about, that
Speaker 1: they might think that, you know, as Branding and I
Speaker 1: talk about our friendship, it's like, look how great friendship is.
Speaker 1: And that's not the spirit in which we bring this.
Speaker 1: We bring this to share it as could it inspire
Speaker 1: you to think about what kinds of friendships you do
Speaker 1: want in your life and to begin thinking about places
Speaker 1: that you might meet them or connect with them over
Speaker 1: things that matter. To you deeply, right, because I think
Speaker 1: that could be an instructive sort of path to follow
Speaker 1: to cultivate this kind of thing in your life.
Speaker 3: I think it's worth mentioning too, when Brandy was talking
Speaker 3: about creative mornings, that is not only a Columbus yeah right.
Speaker 3: There are creative mornings in lots of towns, but there
Speaker 3: are things like creative mornings in lots of places. And
Speaker 3: I do think the thing about community, like, if you
Speaker 3: guys had met through creative mornings alone, it may have
Speaker 3: taken a while for that friendship to evolve, whereas I
Speaker 3: think it got fast tracked a little bit just because
Speaker 3: you guys were able to interact kind of one on one.
Speaker 3: And I think that's important as we talk about friendship
Speaker 3: to think about when we show up to a new community,
Speaker 3: it can take a long time, at least in my case,
Speaker 3: for that to transform into deeper friendships because I'm shy
Speaker 3: and it's hard for me to show up and talk,
Speaker 3: and it takes me a while to sort of even
Speaker 3: feel like I can come out of my shell. I
Speaker 3: know I'm in the right place kind of, but I
Speaker 3: still don't feel connected. So my desire is to not
Speaker 3: show back up because I'm like, well, I'm not feeling
Speaker 3: the connection everybody says I should feel at this thing,
Speaker 3: and I'm not feeling it. And my experience is I
Speaker 3: got to hang in.
Speaker 1: And take the risk to kind of push yourself out
Speaker 1: and to like just approach somebody or something.
Speaker 4: And thanks for normalizing that, Eric, that process that it's
Speaker 4: not easy for everyone to show up and consistently show
Speaker 4: up and stand in that space of trepidation, like am
Speaker 4: I going to make a friend or not make a friend?
Speaker 4: And Yeah, honestly, I think it's a lot harder for
Speaker 4: men than it is for women. I think culturally there's
Speaker 4: a lot that potentially could stand between showing up and
Speaker 4: being more vulnerable. Does that lands for you in your experience.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a little bit. I mean I feel like,
Speaker 3: on my side, I'm pretty quick to be vulnerable and open.
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying I don't have those cultural stereotypes
Speaker 3: weigh on me. Of course I do, but I haven't
Speaker 3: noticed it in a lot of male friendships that it is.
Speaker 3: I was just having this conversation with a friend yesterday.
Speaker 3: We were at breakfast, and he was describing how he
Speaker 3: moved from Clintonville, where he sort of felt connected out
Speaker 3: to sort of the outskirts of Dublin for a variety
Speaker 3: of very good reasons, and that he's having a hard
Speaker 3: time making friends out there. And the reason is he's
Speaker 3: like the other people that I meet, the only thing
Speaker 3: they seem interested in is like house projects and youth sports. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and I was describing I was in Upper Arlington. Those
Speaker 3: of you who don't know what we're talking about, we're
Speaker 3: talking about suburbs of Columbus and somewhat wealthy suburbs of Columbus.
Speaker 3: And I spent time in Upper Arlington for a lot
Speaker 3: of years, going to a lot of youth sporting events,
Speaker 3: and I was around a lot of parents, and I
Speaker 3: didn't make a single friend. And again I'm not saying
Speaker 3: anything wrong about the people there, but we would talk.
Speaker 3: All I could ever get was we want to talk
Speaker 3: about youth sports or sports or work.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I just kept bumping into that, and then a little
Speaker 3: bit of that you start to go, well, I'm not
Speaker 3: even going to bother like I don't want to really try.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's one of the reasons through the spiritual
Speaker 3: habits programs and meetups and different things we've done that,
Speaker 3: Like I so want to build. I know it's not
Speaker 3: an in person community, but a community among the listeners
Speaker 3: so they can support each other, because that is a
Speaker 3: hard thing to find.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Ginny and I have spoken about the same thing
Speaker 4: with something to normalize, and just one of the things
Speaker 4: that I hope that the show can do is to
Speaker 4: welcome people into our friendship. We had some feedback from
Speaker 4: someone who listened who said they felt like a fly
Speaker 4: on the wall, like witnessing, like an intimate conversation between
Speaker 4: best friends. And I get that with the best podcasts
Speaker 4: that I listened to. I mean, Eric, before I met you,
Speaker 4: I had listened to your show and I felt like
Speaker 4: I knew more about you. I'm collaborating with Maggie Smith
Speaker 4: for her event Creative Partings tomorrow, and I'd listened to
Speaker 4: her interviews with you and with Glennon Doyle, and it's like,
Speaker 4: you know people in that space at least, and it
Speaker 4: does create a sense of connection. And I think it's
Speaker 4: so important because, like when you were describing what it
Speaker 4: was like to be a parent, I felt that too.
Speaker 4: I was never able to make friends with the other
Speaker 4: parents who are in the school and I have My
Speaker 4: kids are ten years apart, it hasn't worked either time,
Speaker 4: you know, and so like, I relate to that, and
Speaker 4: I think so many people do. And I think part
Speaker 4: of the reason is because when people take on these
Speaker 4: other roles like I'm a parent, I feel like that's
Speaker 4: a really big one. That's the one I'm landing on
Speaker 4: right now. That especially it zap's a lot of the
Speaker 4: emotional bandwidth that people feel they have to share with
Speaker 4: others in relationships. And so I just feel like, as
Speaker 4: we're having this conversation, like so many people are going
Speaker 4: to be able to relate to that feeling. And I
Speaker 4: hope even just thinking about non traditional ways of seeking
Speaker 4: connection and community can feel really supportive for people.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an endeavor that is hard, it is absolutely
Speaker 3: worth doing. And again, sort of as I said that,
Speaker 3: seeing the two of you is a very hopeful story
Speaker 3: about like, hey, you know, something really beautiful can blossom,
Speaker 3: and when it does, it's really worth it. And it
Speaker 3: doesn't even have to blossom to the degree that yours
Speaker 3: has for it to add value to your life. Like,
Speaker 3: you know, I think every little bit of connection matters,
Speaker 3: and sometimes we get it in really big doses from
Speaker 3: like a person, but sometimes we get it from lots
Speaker 3: of little connections, you know, multiple little things that slowly
Speaker 3: add up. I mean it can be both ways.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I just wanted to touch back on what
Speaker 1: Brandy said about like this fly on a wall kind
Speaker 1: of experience and like having a sense of being in
Speaker 1: this friendship. I will say that in my experience, we
Speaker 1: can see ourselves and other people, even if it's a
Speaker 1: podcast conversation you're listening to, right, Like, you can see
Speaker 1: part of your humanity show up through the stories of
Speaker 1: other people and the lives that they've lived. And I
Speaker 1: think one of the things that drives Brady and I
Speaker 1: to share all that we share on something to normalize
Speaker 1: is you know that we've been through some really difficult
Speaker 1: things individually, but also we've been able to support one
Speaker 1: another through some difficult things just in the time of
Speaker 1: our friendship and having these conversations and sharing those stories
Speaker 1: and sharing our pain and then sharing the wisdom we've
Speaker 1: gained through you know, the work we've done or the
Speaker 1: research we've done. It's a way that we can alchemize
Speaker 1: things that have been painful and difficult into things something
Speaker 1: that's beautiful. Right, These conversations that we share the way
Speaker 1: that we can name things in a space of vulnerability
Speaker 1: and honesty and in so doing normalize them, and we
Speaker 1: can have connection through these conversations. We can resolve some
Speaker 1: shame through these conversations and sharing them. I mean, these
Speaker 1: are all beautiful things, you know. I think that's one
Speaker 1: of the highest hopes we have in what it is
Speaker 1: we bring to listeners in that way.
Speaker 6: So I'd love to.
Speaker 3: Go into some of the things that you talk about
Speaker 3: and actually have the three of us talk about them,
Speaker 3: because you know, certainly the one you feed. We've been
Speaker 3: trying from day one to discuss things that are hard
Speaker 3: to discuss and talk about the real shit in life,
Speaker 3: and I think you guys do it in a beautiful way.
Speaker 3: And so I kind of wanted to just maybe touch
Speaker 3: on what a couple of the topics that I know
Speaker 3: you guys have had. And first one I wanted to
Speaker 3: start on is a topic we've had a couple guests
Speaker 3: on and every time we do, we get a ton
Speaker 3: of feedback on it, which is highly sensitive people. So
Speaker 3: I'm assuming that all three of us are and I'm
Speaker 3: assuming a pretty significant portion of the one you feed
Speaker 3: audience is I mean, I know at least the cross
Speaker 3: section I know is you know, highly sensitive. So I
Speaker 3: was wondering if you guys could just talk about that
Speaker 3: a little bit, like your conversation about highly sensitive people.
Speaker 3: What are some of the big things that kind of
Speaker 3: came out of that that you think we, you know,
Speaker 3: would be really valuable for listeners listening right now.
Speaker 4: So I came to highly sensitive people as a concept
Speaker 4: really looking at my relationship with my son Sawyer, and
Speaker 4: he is a highly sensitive person, and there were these
Speaker 4: things showing up in his experience that felt a little
Speaker 4: inexplicable but also really important to him. And so some
Speaker 4: of the things that were showing up were like textures
Speaker 4: of clothing. When he picks out clothes, he has to
Speaker 4: instead of trying them on or looking at what they
Speaker 4: look like, he would have to touch them. And I
Speaker 4: remember us playing scrabble and there was like a crushed
Speaker 4: velvet bag that he had to pick the pieces out
Speaker 4: of and he couldn't do it. He's like, I cannot
Speaker 4: touch that fabric. And he also needs like a lot
Speaker 4: of time alone and to himself. And so as I
Speaker 4: had gotten a little familiar with the concept, it was
Speaker 4: a way for us to have conversations about what he
Speaker 4: was experiencing. What it looks like for me as a
Speaker 4: highly sensitive person, which basically just means a person who
Speaker 4: is sensitive to sensory input of all kinds and be
Speaker 4: that external or internal, so oftentimes they have a very
Speaker 4: live internal world as well as really feeling those physical sensations.
Speaker 4: I experience it, and this is the stereotype as having
Speaker 4: to recover from overwhelm pretty frequently. So if I give
Speaker 4: a talk, I have to come home and you know,
Speaker 4: put an eyemask on and like go to the bedroom
Speaker 4: and sit in the dark for like an hour to
Speaker 4: kind of recover from that experience. How do you too,
Speaker 4: experience being a highly sensitive person?
Speaker 1: So for me, this particular topic falls under the umbrella
Speaker 1: of why I feel so passionately about normalizing things because
Speaker 1: taking you know, the test that you pointed me to, Brandy,
Speaker 1: and even just in answering the questions, I started to
Speaker 1: name things about myself that I may not either explicitly
Speaker 1: seen as real parts of me or put it in
Speaker 1: the corner as a part of me that was like
Speaker 1: too much like too sensitive or you know, picking up
Speaker 1: on too many fine details, like it was just a
Speaker 1: part of me that was like maybe something I need
Speaker 1: to modulate for the rest of the world. But under
Speaker 1: the umbrella of it being part of this idea of
Speaker 1: highly sensitive person, it made it not only real, but
Speaker 1: something I could accept and also appreciate about myself. Not
Speaker 1: that there was something wrong with me, but that perhaps
Speaker 1: there was just this really unique part of my experience
Speaker 1: of being human. It was just really, I guess, empowering
Speaker 1: and liberating to have some sort of category for different
Speaker 1: parts of myself.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I just felt a jolt of sadness hearing you talk
Speaker 3: about researching it for your son, MM, because I think
Speaker 3: I'm doing a lot of childhood sort of stuff, abandonment
Speaker 3: stuff that I did this a lot, like twenty years ago,
Speaker 3: and I'm just kind of back in it. And I
Speaker 3: think I was super highly sensitive and I was totally alone.
Speaker 1: With ith got Lands. I feel that in my heart,
Speaker 1: knowing you the way I do, just certain of it.
Speaker 1: I'm certain you are and it would have been so
Speaker 1: wonderful to have had someone help you know yourself in
Speaker 1: that way and care for you and help you learn
Speaker 1: to care for yourself in that way.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: And I'm also so inspired by and like in awe
Speaker 1: of and really honor like the work you're doing now
Speaker 1: to go back and like hold that child and kind
Speaker 1: of reparent them in a healing way, like in the
Speaker 1: way that you are thinking of now, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's so inspirational for other folks. And I
Speaker 4: think especially for young boys who are highly sensitive, that's
Speaker 4: often something they feel like they need to hide from
Speaker 4: the world because it isn't accepted. But there's such gifts, Eric,
Speaker 4: I mean, the work that you do in the world
Speaker 4: comes from your highly sensitive place totally.
Speaker 3: I mean I totally get that, and I accept it now.
Speaker 3: I recognize all that. It's just I'm right now in
Speaker 3: the midst of, like just this morning, writing about this
Speaker 3: kind of stuff, and so I'm kind of going deep
Speaker 3: back into this sort of work again. So it's it's
Speaker 3: very very present. Yeah, yeah, I totally know, like it's
Speaker 3: a gift, Like I wouldn't want to be anybody other
Speaker 3: than who I am to either.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was just going to say, And at the
Speaker 4: same time, you know, yes, we can be so grateful
Speaker 4: for who we are today. And I mean, I believe
Speaker 4: in that inner child work and I've seen it show
Speaker 4: up in my own experience and I know how powerful
Speaker 4: it is, like there is that part of ourselves that
Speaker 4: we sit with and hold them like while they recognize
Speaker 4: like the hurt that's there, And that's really brave work too,
Speaker 4: So I just wanted to name that.
Speaker 3: Thanks. Yeah, I've been sort of trying not to be
Speaker 3: discouraged because I felt like I did all this really
Speaker 3: deeply and really intensely. But as I've often say about
Speaker 3: the healing journey, it's like a viral staircase, right, Like
Speaker 3: you keep coming around to the same things. You're just
Speaker 3: hopefully at a slightly higher level when you come back around.
Speaker 3: You know, if you imagine a picture on the wall
Speaker 3: with the spiral staircase. So the way I'm doing that
Speaker 3: work now is not you know when I did it
Speaker 3: twenty years ago. I'm approaching it and able to do
Speaker 3: it at a much higher level as far as being
Speaker 3: highly sensitive. I think how it shows up for me.
Speaker 3: And when you mentioned textures, I thought about my son.
Speaker 3: My son used to be this way with socks that
Speaker 3: used to drive me completely nuts, like the seam in
Speaker 3: the sock, I mean, and it just was maddening. But
Speaker 3: I also.
Speaker 1: Understood what would he do, Like, how would he.
Speaker 3: The seam had to be exactly right. I mean, there
Speaker 3: was only like one kind of sock in the world
Speaker 3: that would work, and then it would stop working. I
Speaker 3: remember they were gold semed socks from some particular store.
Speaker 3: I don't remember where it was, but I just you know,
Speaker 3: I did it. But when you said it, I hadn't thought. Again,
Speaker 3: I'm sort of reflecting on myself as a child, and
Speaker 3: I was like, I couldn't touch sand, I couldn't touch chalk.
Speaker 3: There were all these things that I hate the feeling
Speaker 3: of dirt, like, there were all these things that I
Speaker 3: still have some of that today.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Is that something that just kind
Speaker 1: of recently came back to you or have you known
Speaker 1: that for a while.
Speaker 3: I just thought of it like literally, oh, like just
Speaker 3: when Brandy was describing her, like I've always thought when
Speaker 3: I hear the texture thing, I think of my son.
Speaker 3: But I just was like, oh, yeah, I'm kind of
Speaker 3: weird with texture too.
Speaker 1: So interesting, and you're also really sensitive to sound.
Speaker 3: It sound is the biggest one for me.
Speaker 4: Me too. We have something in my house called quiet time,
Speaker 4: which is the hour before bed, and I am just
Speaker 4: so straightforward about it. I'm like literally get out, just
Speaker 4: get out of this room if you cannot be quiet,
Speaker 4: because I get to the point where I'm like, it's
Speaker 4: that or I'm going to be mean to you, Like
Speaker 4: those are the two options.
Speaker 3: The irritation level for me gets so high, and it's
Speaker 3: the sort of thing that has been helpful for me
Speaker 3: to understand, because otherwise I was like, I'm just a jerk.
Speaker 3: Like the fact that Jenny's chewing and I hear the sound,
Speaker 3: and I now I hate her and I never want
Speaker 3: to see her again, Like what is wrong with me?
Speaker 1: Like I used to be like that with my mom.
Speaker 1: I could hear her chewing, I swear from across the room.
Speaker 1: And it's not like her mouth was open. She was
Speaker 1: like very polite, so her mouth was closed, but it
Speaker 1: was as if there was some echo chamber in her
Speaker 1: mouth as it was closed that was causing it to
Speaker 1: like reverberate through the room. And I wanted to like
Speaker 1: run over and strangle her. I was just so mad.
Speaker 3: I think there to be we have that with each other,
Speaker 3: but we can at least ignowl. Yeah, yeah, would you
Speaker 3: like me to go over to the other side of
Speaker 3: the room here and chew this exactly?
Speaker 1: Like I want to come sit next to you, but
Speaker 1: would you like me to finish eating for us, because
Speaker 1: I totally get it if you do. I was thinking
Speaker 1: for me. One of the ways the sensitivity piece has
Speaker 1: come up is certainly like a lot of stimuli, you know,
Speaker 1: at one time, I get really flooded. But also I
Speaker 1: am really sensitive to other people's energies, like really sensitive.
Speaker 1: It's to the point where like sometimes I feel like
Speaker 1: all my nerve endings are on the outside of my body,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's picking up not only like you know,
Speaker 1: sound and sighte and all that, but it's emotional too,
Speaker 1: and like the surroundings I'm in, the people I'm with,
Speaker 1: it affects my mood, and I also am like, really
Speaker 1: I'm almost aware of how well, not almost, I'm often
Speaker 1: aware of how others are feeling before I'm aware of
Speaker 1: how I'm feeling.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Empathy is one of the qualities of a highly sensitive person,
Speaker 4: and a lot of highly sensitive folks feel drawn towards
Speaker 4: serving others in some way because I think potentially because
Speaker 4: they feel the pain of the world so deeply. And
Speaker 4: that's such a hard line to walk as a highly
Speaker 4: sensitive person, because you are both going to feel everything
Speaker 4: everyone is feeling and feel drawn to those people who
Speaker 4: are in pain. Oftentimes, something that I started using and
Speaker 4: my work with people, a teacher that I was working
Speaker 4: with made the suggestion to me to not do the
Speaker 4: self care after the experience, but actually to try to
Speaker 4: self care while it's happening, so that I don't end
Speaker 4: up getting in those places overwhelmed so quickly. And so
Speaker 4: I do a lot of diaphragm breathing when I'm in
Speaker 4: those high intensity situations, and it helps me to connect
Speaker 4: back to my own rhythm and sense of safety. If
Speaker 4: there's someone else who's dysregulated and they're in a lot
Speaker 4: of anxiety or a lot of physical pain or emotional pain,
Speaker 4: I can remind myself and that's not me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. I do that.
Speaker 1: So my mindfulness practice has really taught me how to
Speaker 1: be in my body, like to be embodied, to feel
Speaker 1: my body from the inside out. When I can do that,
Speaker 1: like you, Brandy, I can remind myself who I am,
Speaker 1: where I am, and inhabit that, and it reminds me
Speaker 1: what I am not, which is you know the other person, right,
Speaker 1: That's incredible.
Speaker 3: Describe diaphragm breathing. Yeah, a lot of people probably know
Speaker 3: what that means, but just for anybody who doesn't.
Speaker 4: Sure, So the way that I always teach folks to
Speaker 4: do this is put one hand on their chest and
Speaker 4: another hand on their belly and just breathe naturally. And
Speaker 4: what most folks will notice when they do that is
Speaker 4: that the top hand that's on the chest moves a
Speaker 4: lot more than the bottom hand that's on the belly,
Speaker 4: And so keeping our hands in those places, then I
Speaker 4: would instruct folks to try to breathe so that only
Speaker 4: the hand on your belly is moving. And so if
Speaker 4: you literally just use your muscles to push kind of
Speaker 4: in and out, you can feel that sense of breathing
Speaker 4: through the diaphragm. And it's such a small thing, but
Speaker 4: it takes focus to do that, and so you're focusing
Speaker 4: inwardly as opposed to outwardly. I normally slow my breathing
Speaker 4: when I'm doing that, and so we're slowing our autonomic
Speaker 4: nervous system. And it's just been really supportive for me.
Speaker 1: Hi, everybody, it's Ginny. You've probably heard me with Eric
Speaker 1: on some episodes of The One You Feed. I have
Speaker 1: a question for you. Are you your own worst critic?
Speaker 1: I mean, when you pay attention to how you talk
Speaker 1: to yourself, is it just kind of mean? And do
Speaker 1: you often feel beat down and just heavy inside? If so,
Speaker 1: I truly understand the struggle. I used to believe that
Speaker 1: relating to myself this way was what kept me performing
Speaker 1: at any acceptable level, and without it, I thought I'd
Speaker 1: drift off into the deep end and become a failure
Speaker 1: in pretty much every aspect of my life. But it
Speaker 1: turns out that's actually one of the inner critics' worst
Speaker 1: lies that it helps you. I mean maybe short term
Speaker 1: you get a push and do well, but long term
Speaker 1: it's corrosive and it actually keeps you from living to
Speaker 1: your potential. I've created a free three part video series
Speaker 1: that teaches you how to get to the other side
Speaker 1: of the inner critic like I have, and you can
Speaker 1: grab it today. Just head to onewfeed dot net slash
Speaker 1: Inner Critic. I'm sharing this with you as not only
Speaker 1: an inner critic survivor, but also a certified mindfulness teacher,
Speaker 1: and you can learn to relate to yourself differently, living
Speaker 1: with an inner lightness and not a sense of being
Speaker 1: at battle with yourself. Life is so much better when
Speaker 1: you're a friend to yourself. I promise, So go to
Speaker 1: onefeed dot net slash inner Critic for my free mini
Speaker 1: course see you in the videos.
Speaker 3: It's so interesting, this idea of doing some of this
Speaker 3: self care while you're listening to other people. I'm a
Speaker 3: certified Interface spiritual director, and so I went through like
Speaker 3: an eighteen month like master's level course to do this.
Speaker 3: But there was one thing that really stood out to me,
Speaker 3: and it was talking about listening, and it was recognizing
Speaker 3: that like we normally think of listening is like give
Speaker 3: the other person all your attention, yes, and you've got
Speaker 3: to keep some attention inside. I think you guys both
Speaker 3: shared the story that may have come from you. I
Speaker 3: don't know about a particular spiritual teaching.
Speaker 1: Oh that was at my mindfulness teacher training.
Speaker 3: Okay, about like I never give very much of my
Speaker 3: attention to anyone.
Speaker 1: I never give one hundred percent of my attention to anybody.
Speaker 1: And it was just this idea of you know, how
Speaker 1: much do you stay where you are in your body
Speaker 1: and in your experience while also attending to what's happening around.
Speaker 3: And it's a real interesting dance. It is in service
Speaker 3: of yourself, but even in being of service to someone else.
Speaker 3: The primary way I think of it is that if
Speaker 3: I'm not paying attention to myself, I'm reacting and I
Speaker 3: don't know how I'm reacting, and I don't know what's
Speaker 3: coming up in me, and what's coming up in me
Speaker 3: is coming out back to your topic of unconditional positive regard.
Speaker 3: Right Like, if I'm listening to you and you're saying
Speaker 3: something that is triggery for me, and I'm not paying
Speaker 3: attention to that consciously, I'm unconsciously paying attention to it.
Speaker 3: I'm unconsciously doing it, And so what you may be
Speaker 3: feeling is, wait, he's shifted. He's not giving me his
Speaker 3: attention and warmth that he was giving me because now
Speaker 3: I'm unconsciously off processing something else. And so that ability
Speaker 3: to keep some of that attention internally is really important
Speaker 3: and isn't a selfish thing. It's actually a way of
Speaker 3: being more loving, more kind, and more present to the people.
Speaker 1: And it's a skill to learn and then cultivate and
Speaker 1: develop and practice like all the time. I mean, I
Speaker 1: still remind myself when I think of it to do this,
Speaker 1: because you know, my default is still to put sort
Speaker 1: of one hundred percent of my attention in someone else.
Speaker 1: I know that I'm putting my attention one hundred percent
Speaker 1: in someone else when they then turn around and like
Speaker 1: maybe ask me a question, and it's like, not only
Speaker 1: do I draw a blank, but I just don't even
Speaker 1: have access to any of my answers because I feel
Speaker 1: like I've somehow gotten like untethered from the mothership and
Speaker 1: I'm floating around and out of space, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I left my body, I left my experience,
Speaker 1: and so I'll come back home to like start feeling
Speaker 1: my body from the inside out field the chair underneath me,
Speaker 1: feel the floor, and then I begin to come back
Speaker 1: online for myself. But I just want to like name that,
Speaker 1: like this is not something like a one and done.
Speaker 3: You know, it is a hard practice because it's easy
Speaker 3: to go to one extreme or the other. Right, we
Speaker 3: all know what it's like to not be listening to
Speaker 3: someone else more or less and be thinking about our
Speaker 3: response to them or what we think about what they're saying.
Speaker 3: We all know what that's like. We all know what
Speaker 3: it's like. Maybe not everyone, but most of us know
Speaker 3: what It's like when we're completely outside of ourselves and
Speaker 3: it's being able to do both is really a dance,
Speaker 3: and it does take practice, and it's a deep mindfulness practice. Actually,
Speaker 3: it's a deep meditative practice.
Speaker 4: Surely is, Yes, it absolutely is. And you know, as
Speaker 4: I'm considering those moments when I've gone into myself, when
Speaker 4: I'm sitting with someone else who is in a place
Speaker 4: of emotional pain, it is from that place within myself
Speaker 4: that the wisdom to respond to them, from my own
Speaker 4: knowing that is going to best meet their needs in
Speaker 4: the moment, shows up, you know. And it's interesting because
Speaker 4: I teach listening, and I just taught this like listening
Speaker 4: workshop at a training that I was doing, and I
Speaker 4: think that one of the things that I always share
Speaker 4: with folks is we don't very often time receive that
Speaker 4: type of listening, and when we do, it is such
Speaker 4: a profound experience for so many people. So many things
Speaker 4: show up in that safe space of this person is
Speaker 4: seeing me and they're hearing me, and anything that I'm
Speaker 4: saying or doing is okay in that safety. All of
Speaker 4: these things show up for people, and it's really a
Speaker 4: profound gift to be present and witness that, and it's
Speaker 4: a profound gift for the person who is being able
Speaker 4: to share because they get to see a part of
Speaker 4: themselves that wouldn't have been visible otherwise and left that
Speaker 4: unless that safe space was created.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes me sad to hear that, not for me,
Speaker 3: but for people who that's such a profound experience for
Speaker 3: that they haven't had that, and that when it does
Speaker 3: finally arrive, it's that profound. Yeah, I just feel really fortunate,
Speaker 3: Like I think my journey through addiction and recovery it
Speaker 3: was like, I mean, I just got to a lot
Speaker 3: of experience of that, like people hearing me and listening
Speaker 3: and just a deep regard for each other. And and
Speaker 3: it speaks to the loneliness we've talked about. I don't
Speaker 3: remember statistics well, but it's something like fifty percent of
Speaker 3: Americans don't feel like they have someone that they could
Speaker 3: turn to in a moment of deep need. And that's
Speaker 3: just heartbreaking, heartbreaking, And if you are one of those people,
Speaker 3: I always feel like talking about loneliness makes me anxious
Speaker 3: because it reminds me of like people who talk about sleep.
Speaker 3: I start calling them the sleep police because they tell
Speaker 3: you how bad not sleeping is for you, and you're like, well,
Speaker 3: I'm not sleeping and I'm doing my best to sleep,
Speaker 3: but I'm not sleeping, and all you're doing is telling
Speaker 3: me how destructive is to my health. So now I'm
Speaker 3: three times as anxious about not sleeping as I was
Speaker 3: before I listen to you, and I sometimes feel like
Speaker 3: with loneliness, it's the same thing. I'm like, you know,
Speaker 3: loneliness is worse than smoking, and I'm like, okay, but
Speaker 3: that's not helpful, like right, So I think the point
Speaker 3: is it's the same thing of recognizing like there's always
Speaker 3: a positive move you can take, as say, step no matter,
Speaker 3: always a small positive step that we can take in
Speaker 3: the direction of connection.
Speaker 4: Yeah, to reckon back to something you said earlier in
Speaker 4: this conversation, Eric, you talked about that, you know, we've
Speaker 4: spoken a lot about deep friendship and how that evolves,
Speaker 4: Like the friendship between Geny and I are the friendships
Speaker 4: that you formed in you know, your program for alcohol
Speaker 4: and addiction, And it's like those are like these high vulnerability,
Speaker 4: like very deep scenarios where folks really are curating that
Speaker 4: listening space. But it is also incredibly important and physically
Speaker 4: and emotionally helpful to have those micro interactions with strangers,
Speaker 4: Like I was just reading about that this morning, that
Speaker 4: you know, if someone is experiencing a sense of loneliness,
Speaker 4: stopping by the coffee shop and saying how's your day
Speaker 4: to the person who gives you your coffee, or commenting
Speaker 4: on the book that someone's reading who's sitting next to you, like,
Speaker 4: those can be really emotion fulfilling, and they can help
Speaker 4: our health as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we are in the presence of a savant for that,
Speaker 3: which is this one. I'm serious. There is nobody who
Speaker 3: I've seen do more consistently do well, which is to
Speaker 3: make connection with an absolute stranger for like seven minutes
Speaker 3: or five minutes or three minutes that lights them both
Speaker 3: up and then it's just gone and over. I mean,
Speaker 3: I've been in all of it since the first time
Speaker 3: when we met in Asheville. The first time, I remember
Speaker 3: the very next morning we were out shopping and just
Speaker 3: the way you were interacting with the people in the store,
Speaker 3: I was just watching in awe, like, oh my.
Speaker 1: God, oh my god, I'm so touched.
Speaker 3: Like these like and it's so beautiful, Like I know,
Speaker 3: you get something out of it, but the way it
Speaker 3: lights other people up too, and I think that we
Speaker 3: are afraid to do that. You're not, in some way
Speaker 3: touched to hear thank you, and so you take that
Speaker 3: chance that most people don't take. Like you said, Brandy,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of like short moments of connection that
Speaker 3: are there, but they come from you taking a chance.
Speaker 3: And like I've always said, I admire about you that
Speaker 3: you just look at someone and be like, I really
Speaker 3: like your.
Speaker 1: Hair, well, thank you. I mean I think it comes
Speaker 1: from I watched my mom do this. She made friends
Speaker 1: everywhere she went. I mean it was just the way
Speaker 1: she was. When I watched her. What I saw was
Speaker 1: her taking a genuine interest in the other person as
Speaker 1: they were showing up right there in that moment. So
Speaker 1: it might just be something that she noticed that they're
Speaker 1: wearing or this, maybe even just their smile, you know,
Speaker 1: was just beautiful and like she would just name that
Speaker 1: in the most sincere present way, and just taking that
Speaker 1: interest in them and being present with them and having
Speaker 1: that moment of connection and like like that I learned
Speaker 1: at her feet. I mean, she was the real master
Speaker 1: at them. It also is just I find people very interesting,
Speaker 1: and so maybe it's just that press and genuine interest
Speaker 1: and willingness to say something yeah about it. That is
Speaker 1: the thing that kind of drives me to do that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, and you're not locked in yourself. And we've
Speaker 3: talked a little bit about the danger of like completely
Speaker 3: leaving yourself, right, But there's a whole lot there's an
Speaker 3: awful lot of danger that I am familiar with of
Speaker 3: being encased in yourself. Yeah, right, that is not better,
Speaker 3: Like you know, that is not better. And it's the
Speaker 3: way that I tend to default move through the world
Speaker 3: is I'm just lost in my brain. I'm going to
Speaker 3: get coffee and I'm thinking about this, and I'm thinking
Speaker 3: about that, or we all these days we're on our phone,
Speaker 3: you know, we just don't make that moment. And we've
Speaker 3: been talking about friendship and connection. There are studies out
Speaker 3: there that show you ask somebody, how do you think
Speaker 3: it would be to talk to a stranger on the
Speaker 3: subway on your way home today? And most everybody's like, no,
Speaker 3: thank you, that's going to be a three out of ten,
Speaker 3: that's a two out of a ten, not going to
Speaker 3: do it. And then they send these people out to
Speaker 3: go do it, and they all come back and consistently
Speaker 3: report seven eight nine out of ten. So we don't
Speaker 3: think it's going to be worth doing, we think it's
Speaker 3: going to be hard, we think it's going to be weird.
Speaker 3: We don't do it. And I know this goes on
Speaker 3: in my mind. But oftentimes, and according to studies, more
Speaker 3: often than not, something really positive comes out of it.
Speaker 3: And I see that in you that you just do
Speaker 3: that it is something I admire and could certainly get
Speaker 3: better at. And I have my moments of you sure
Speaker 3: do when I'm not locked inside, and usually when I'm
Speaker 3: locked inside it's just too much self concern just thinking
Speaker 3: about me to that.
Speaker 1: End, you know, Gratitude is another great way to bring
Speaker 1: connection to other people, Like even if it's a small
Speaker 1: thing that someone does for you just as part of
Speaker 1: their job, but like really recognizing it in a sincere
Speaker 1: way of thinking them and even saying a little bit
Speaker 1: about how that helped you. Would you mention you just
Speaker 1: a bit of the story about the person that took
Speaker 1: our Spiritual Habits program in an act of kindness.
Speaker 3: I love this story. I use it now, but it
Speaker 3: was inspired by a lesson I do on generosity and
Speaker 3: one of the things that I do in that lesson
Speaker 3: is encourage people like do one kind thing for someone
Speaker 3: else every day. The stories I've gotten back from that
Speaker 3: are just so amazing. But one stands out, and it
Speaker 3: was this woman. She had been going to a grocery store,
Speaker 3: a smaller grocery store for years, and there was a
Speaker 3: checkout person who was always there, and she always got
Speaker 3: in her line. And the reason that she got in
Speaker 3: her line was because her line was the fastest. And
Speaker 3: this person that I'm describing is a little bit like me,
Speaker 3: just sort of locked into their own little world, and
Speaker 3: they're like, get me in and out of this grocery
Speaker 3: store as quickly as I can. I'm going to go
Speaker 3: through the fast person's line. For whatever reason that day,
Speaker 3: I guess the reason is they were instructed to do
Speaker 3: something kind. They said, you know, I always get in
Speaker 3: your line because you are so efficient. You are so
Speaker 3: good at getting people in and out of here, and
Speaker 3: it really means a lot to me.
Speaker 6: She said.
Speaker 3: This woman that she had not seen smile in years
Speaker 3: lit up like a Christmas tree. And then this woman said,
Speaker 3: would you mind telling my manager? So she went over
Speaker 3: and told her manager, and her manager lit up like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, that's so great. And the manager was like,
Speaker 3: you know what, just today we're trying to decide who
Speaker 3: to give, like the employe the month award two and
Speaker 3: she gets like one hundred dollars and like, all this
Speaker 3: came from just one little I really appreciate the way
Speaker 3: you check me out quickly. That's the example of this
Speaker 3: sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Because it doesn't take much, just a genuine, sincere kind
Speaker 1: of present moment yeah, yeah, comment or whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think that that's the power of feeling seen and
Speaker 4: heard and valued. I love mister Rogers and he talks
Speaker 4: about neighborhood expressions of care, which is some of what
Speaker 4: I hear being described, this expression of care that is
Speaker 4: just the the friendliness, the warmth of we're here, like
Speaker 4: in this thing together, you know, and there's something about
Speaker 4: that we're all And this is mister Rogers too. I
Speaker 4: like you just the way you are. Like I listen
Speaker 4: to his talk to Congress, and there is that sense
Speaker 4: of like just as you are, like right now. And
Speaker 4: I think that that is the value of friendship because
Speaker 4: we come from this place of my purpose in being
Speaker 4: present with you is just to show you how much
Speaker 4: I care about you. Like over and over, like I
Speaker 4: just want to show you that. And it is this
Speaker 4: reciprocal kind of circle. It's this self fulfilling what do
Speaker 4: they call that, the wheel, the something wheel, flywheel, It's
Speaker 4: a flywheel because you do that and you give, and
Speaker 4: you see you receive from the giving, and it just
Speaker 4: continues to perpetuate. And so I think we can think
Speaker 4: about every little interaction, whether it's the conversation with a
Speaker 4: friendship friend, or whether it's the just hello in the
Speaker 4: grocery store, as like just operating that flywheel and at
Speaker 4: some point it's just going to start going. That's my experience.
Speaker 4: And it's about the opening too. That's what I hear
Speaker 4: us all talking about. It's about the opening up and
Speaker 4: just that requires showing, but it also requires seeing.
Speaker 1: The spiritual teacher Tara Brock, who I've learned so much from,
Speaker 1: she will say sometimes when in a room full of strangers,
Speaker 1: like if she's doing, you know, a workshop or something
Speaker 1: to kind of break that down within herself so that
Speaker 1: she can open up, is she will look at another
Speaker 1: person and think to herself, She'll just say to herself
Speaker 1: the mantra, we are friends, we are friends, and that
Speaker 1: helps her access in her heart, this spirit, and it's
Speaker 1: genuine because it's this we are. We are humans on
Speaker 1: this earth together. We are connected in the sense that
Speaker 1: you know, we're breathing the same air, We're having human
Speaker 1: experiences that you know may differ in the narrative, but
Speaker 1: are underneath. I mean, that's one of the quotes that
Speaker 1: I love that has driven Brandy and I to do
Speaker 1: the podcast. But like, what is most personal is most universal.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a psychologist, Carl Rogers says that, But
Speaker 1: it's like, if we know deep down we are friends,
Speaker 1: we have this shared experience of being human, then maybe
Speaker 1: our hearts can open a little, even if it's just
Speaker 1: your looking in their eyes and smiling in a genuine way.
Speaker 1: Like those micro connections really not only do a lot
Speaker 1: to fuel us and feed us, but they also, like
Speaker 1: in the story Eric shared, they sometimes can build you're
Speaker 1: right on themselves. So it's worth taking that what they
Speaker 1: call the exquisite risk right to open up.
Speaker 3: I'm glad you brought it back to that because we're
Speaker 3: nearing the end of our time and I did want
Speaker 3: to say, like, you know, that is part of what
Speaker 3: you guys are doing on this show is normalizing all
Speaker 3: these topics we've talked about highly sensitive people. You talk
Speaker 3: about normalizing grief. You've got a couple of great episodes
Speaker 3: in this upcoming season around Hope. So in season one,
Speaker 3: which is available in your feed already, it's got turned
Speaker 3: shame into connection. You guys talk about grief. I know
Speaker 3: there's been a lot of grief in certainly Genuinized Life
Speaker 3: and Brandy you talk about Hope. Season two is coming out,
Speaker 3: and the goal really, as we've described, to normalize these things,
Speaker 3: like we want to make friends but hard you know,
Speaker 3: all these things that we're talking about is just this
Speaker 3: chance for you guys to have open, vulnerable conversations that
Speaker 3: people can really benefit from. So is there anything you'd
Speaker 3: like to say about where people can find you or
Speaker 3: a couple of things you guys want to say about
Speaker 3: the show as we wrap up?
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, sure, I mean, in each episode we take
Speaker 1: a topic that thus far, it's been a topic that
Speaker 1: each of us have had some experiences with, and we
Speaker 1: share our own experiences, we share the wisdom that we've
Speaker 1: gained from doing the work as we've gone through these experiences,
Speaker 1: and then we have each done research on our own
Speaker 1: and we bring that to one another and talk about
Speaker 1: what we can learn from experts on how to navigate
Speaker 1: situations like that we're talking about. And it's all in
Speaker 1: hopes that being vulnerable and sharing all of this, you know,
Speaker 1: we can normalize these experience In other words, we can
Speaker 1: name it, we can acknowledge it as real, we can
Speaker 1: accept it as just another part of being human, and
Speaker 1: that it's not evidence that we are wrong or we're
Speaker 1: doing life wrong.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: We really suffer when we think we're the only ones.
Speaker 1: But we find a lot of healing and freedom in
Speaker 1: community and in seeing ourselves in the experiences of others.
Speaker 1: So our high hope through these conversations is that there
Speaker 1: can be healing that are sharing and normalizing can be
Speaker 1: really an antidote to shame or self hatred around things
Speaker 1: that are hard in our lives and can help people
Speaker 1: find their footing, you know if need be, and also
Speaker 1: maybe find some laughter. You know, we hope to not
Speaker 1: take ourselves too seriously, right, But any what else would
Speaker 1: you want to touch on about it?
Speaker 4: I think you did a wonderful job summarizing what the
Speaker 4: show is about, and I just want to name that
Speaker 4: it's built on this foundation of belonging. And I think
Speaker 4: that that feeling is a sense that folks can get
Speaker 4: from our conversations and from being part of our community,
Speaker 4: through listening to our podcast, through following us on Instagram.
Speaker 4: Something to normalize. We have a Patreon community where we're
Speaker 4: going to be having more in depth conversations and sharing
Speaker 4: some reas sources on how to apply these concepts, how
Speaker 4: to apply setting boundaries and situations. For example, we're talking
Speaker 4: about gaslating this next season and how do you actually
Speaker 4: do that? And so just really navigating these hard things together.
Speaker 4: And just on this final note of belonging, I just
Speaker 4: wanted to hearken really far back, specifically Eric, to when
Speaker 4: we began our friendship, which really started with this moment
Speaker 4: of me someone had recommended that I listened to your
Speaker 4: show and told me that you were from Columbus, and
Speaker 4: I reached out and I took that risk, and I said,
Speaker 4: would you like to get coffee? And so graciously you
Speaker 4: decided to do that, and it resulted in eight years
Speaker 4: of us having these really meaningful conversations and ultimately into
Speaker 4: this blossoming friendship with Jinny and you know, becoming part
Speaker 4: of the platform at the one you feed and I
Speaker 4: could not be more grateful to have both of you
Speaker 4: in my life and it's been such a source of
Speaker 4: belonging for me.
Speaker 3: So thank you, Thank you, Brandy. We've been thrilled to
Speaker 3: have you as part all this too, So.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really exciting. So just to point listeners to,
Speaker 1: you can now subscribe to something to Normalize in whatever
Speaker 1: podcast player you listen to, you'll see all of season
Speaker 1: one already in there, and then season two. We're going
Speaker 1: to start releasing episodes from season two October fourth, so
Speaker 1: you can subscribe. You can head to onewfeed dot net
Speaker 1: slash Normalize, you can sign up for emails. You can
Speaker 1: also find us on Instagram and all other things from
Speaker 1: that page. So we hope you'll join us, and we
Speaker 1: really look forward to conversations to come. And thank you
Speaker 1: Eric for having us on the show today to really
Speaker 1: talk about such meaningful Of.
Speaker 3: Course, I love talking with both of you, and your
Speaker 3: show is so wonderful and so happy that we can
Speaker 3: be a part of it.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Same.
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