Speaker 1: Hello Bechdel Cast listeners.
Speaker 2: We we we wu. This is future Jamie and Caitlin
Speaker 2: recording this a week after we recorded this original episode.
Speaker 2: With two quick notes at the top.
Speaker 1: The first thing we want to do is plug the
Speaker 1: tour that we've got coming up. You've probably already heard
Speaker 1: about it, but in case you haven't, we are doing
Speaker 1: several live shows in early February. We will be in
Speaker 1: San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin, and San Diego in that order.
Speaker 1: The dates range from February first to February tenth. You
Speaker 1: can get more information all the details all the dates
Speaker 1: as well as tickets if you go to link tree
Speaker 1: slash Bechdel Cast and we hope to see you there.
Speaker 1: We have such fun shows and we're doing Barbie.
Speaker 2: It's the Barbie tour we've been in in dating you.
Speaker 2: But yeah, we're already sold out in Dallas and Sacramento,
Speaker 2: but stay tuned there may be more shows announced and
Speaker 2: get your tickets to the other shows. Yeah. The other
Speaker 2: thing we wanted to touch on really quick. This is
Speaker 2: a movie that is both about highly sensitive themes and
Speaker 2: it just came out. So since we recorded this last week,
Speaker 2: there has been a fair amount of reaction and the
Speaker 2: reaction to the reaction, and we've had a week to
Speaker 2: sit with the movie and we have a few worthings
Speaker 2: we just wanted to talk about. So if you want
Speaker 2: to get to future JB and future Caitlin's thoughts on that,
Speaker 2: and I guess I don't know why I am like
Speaker 2: high to get that Villi Fulau has now seen and
Speaker 2: reacted to May December. If you're not aware who that is.
Speaker 2: This movie I think is pretty clearly based on the
Speaker 2: Mary Kay Laturno and Villi Fulou abuse saga of the nineties. Yes,
Speaker 2: and you know he has since reacted to the movie.
Speaker 2: There's been reaction to the reaction. We're going to talk
Speaker 2: about it. And I also feel like I'm losing listeners
Speaker 2: at the very beginning because the filmmakers insist it's not
Speaker 2: based on that. Just go to the end of the episode.
Speaker 2: We also talk about it content with the episode It's
Speaker 2: a monster. This was a really challenging episode that we
Speaker 2: had a great time recording. It's just because this movie,
Speaker 2: for everything we liked and disliked about it, is really challenging.
Speaker 2: So for sure, buckle in, we hope you enjoy the
Speaker 2: discussion and we'll see you in the future. At the
Speaker 2: end of the episode, yep, enjoy.
Speaker 3: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
Speaker 3: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands
Speaker 3: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zeffi bast
Speaker 3: start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 1: Doo doo, doo doo.
Speaker 2: I don't think we have enough hot dogs. And that's
Speaker 2: when I knew I was going to enjoy whatever happens
Speaker 2: in the movie May December, which I did not know
Speaker 2: what it was about or any of the themes. Wow,
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: But the hot dog representation is very prominent, especially in
Speaker 1: those first five to ten minutes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're making more hot and there are people
Speaker 2: we're talking about three to a head by my math. Yeah,
Speaker 2: unless there were some kids, I wasn't saying whatever. Welcome
Speaker 2: to the Bechdel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus, And on
Speaker 2: this podcast, we always have enough hot dogs. Over the years,
Speaker 2: some have said we have too many. It comes up
Speaker 2: to abundance, a surplus, if you will, order of hot dogs.
Speaker 1: And I'm Caitlin Dorante and this is our show where
Speaker 1: we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Speaker 1: Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate
Speaker 1: a larger conversation.
Speaker 2: And boy, do we have a conversation have today?
Speaker 1: Do we really do? Yes? The Bechdel Test is a
Speaker 1: media metric originally created by Alison Bechdel along with her
Speaker 1: friend Liz Wallace. That's why it's often called the Bechdel
Speaker 1: Wallace Test. Originally appeared in Alison Bechdel's comic Dicks to
Speaker 1: Watch Out For, and the original intention behind it was
Speaker 1: just like an examination of do women speak to each
Speaker 1: other in media? In movies? And how fucked up can
Speaker 1: it get? This movie seeks to answer that question, it
Speaker 1: really truly does.
Speaker 2: I feel like that's sort of a concerted interest of
Speaker 2: Todd Haynes's work overall. He wants to see how many fun,
Speaker 2: dumb ways he could pass the Bechdel test. And I
Speaker 2: think that that's a really noble pursuit.
Speaker 1: It is it is. We're proud of him for it.
Speaker 1: In any case, there are many different versions of the
Speaker 1: Bechdel test. The one that we use is as follows,
Speaker 1: do two characters of a marginalized gender have names, do
Speaker 1: they speak to each other? Is the conversation about something
Speaker 1: other than a man and a little caveat that we add?
Speaker 1: Is is the conversation narratively impactful or is it just
Speaker 1: kind of like throwaway dialogue that could easily be cut not.
Speaker 2: An example of this is we don't have enough hot talks,
Speaker 2: which I think passes the Bechdel test because just because
Speaker 2: we don't hear it doesn't mean the hot dogs didn't answer.
Speaker 2: They said, there is enough hot dogs. Look at us,
Speaker 2: there's sixty. Did you see how many damn hot dogs?
Speaker 2: Charles Melton was brilliing there was enough.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: Anyway, we're talking about May December. I feel like it's
Speaker 2: been a while since we've talked about a movie like
Speaker 2: right as it was coming out. But this movie went
Speaker 2: directly to streaming, so it's allowed we can do it.
Speaker 1: It always stresses me out to do a movie that
Speaker 1: recently has just come out because I'm like, I need
Speaker 1: more time to mull it over. So I kind of
Speaker 1: feel that way about this movie.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a ton to go through, and I
Speaker 2: think like, yeah, this is the kind of movie that,
Speaker 2: like the conversation will evolve with age two, but there's
Speaker 2: been I think, a really interesting wide variety of discussion,
Speaker 2: including the classic like Golden Globes, Like why is this
Speaker 2: being called a comedy?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: I just am so exhausted with that conversation in general,
Speaker 2: I don't want to hear it. We have an amazing
Speaker 2: guest joining us today who bravely requested to cover this movie.
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, she is a comedian. She'll be releasing an
Speaker 1: hour special later this year, so be on the lookout
Speaker 1: for that. She's also in the Shutter movie Destroy All Neighbors,
Speaker 1: which I think at the time of this episode's release
Speaker 1: will be available on Shutter.
Speaker 2: Credible title It's Kiran Deal.
Speaker 4: Welcome, Come, Hello, you guys. This is so exciting.
Speaker 1: The excitement is all ours.
Speaker 4: I love the way you're like. She bravely suggested this
Speaker 4: movie aka she doesn't watch films anymore and happened to
Speaker 4: catch this on Netflix because she was like, Oh, I
Speaker 4: know Natalie Portman, Let's see what this thing is about.
Speaker 4: And then I thought it was the director of Tar,
Speaker 4: which I believe. I guess Caitlin, I thought it.
Speaker 2: Was Todd to Todd's we were talking about, Yeah, the
Speaker 2: various interests of the todd O tour community. In the
Speaker 2: last two years or in the last ten years, men
Speaker 2: named todd seemed to be obsessed with making movies where
Speaker 2: the thesis seems to be, you know, women can be
Speaker 2: sex criminals too, which is true, Which is true, and
Speaker 2: the Todds feel that they are the one to say it.
Speaker 2: I also think that these Todds also have a vested
Speaker 2: interest in casting Kate Blanchett as a complicated lesbian. Yes,
Speaker 2: because we have that in Carol and we have that
Speaker 2: interre are different wow kinds of Kate Blanchett's on display,
Speaker 2: but Todds nonetheless. Anyway, what's your history with this movie, Caitlyn.
Speaker 1: I had just seen it for the first time four
Speaker 1: or so days ago. I considered not watching it a
Speaker 1: second time because it is a decidedly uncomfortable movie, but
Speaker 1: I was like, I gotta do my job. I need
Speaker 1: to absorb it more fully. So yeah, I've just seen
Speaker 1: it twice now in the past few days, and I'm
Speaker 1: excited to talk about it, or I guess, like I know,
Speaker 1: we kept being like is excited the right word here?
Speaker 1: But I found it intriguing certainly, And do I ever
Speaker 1: want to watch it again? After this, I would say
Speaker 1: not no, but I think it will elicit an interesting discussion, Jamie,
Speaker 1: what about you?
Speaker 2: This is going to sound excessive. It is completely by
Speaker 2: coincidence that I have not seen so many award season
Speaker 2: movies this year, but I've seen May December three times style.
Speaker 2: I watched it the weekend that it came out, because
Speaker 2: once I did find out what it was about. This
Speaker 2: is weirdly it sounds weird to say that this is
Speaker 2: in my wheelhouse, but because I did the Lolita podcast
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, I've seen and analyzed quite
Speaker 2: a few movies that have predatory and abusive dynamics. We've
Speaker 2: talked about it, I think briefly on the show I
Speaker 2: Can't for the Life and we remember in what episode
Speaker 2: this would have come up, but how infrequently up until
Speaker 2: quite recently, like representing an abusive dynamic and child sex
Speaker 2: abuse that takes place between an adult woman and a
Speaker 2: young man is like almost never shown or discussed up
Speaker 2: until pretty recently. So once I found out what this
Speaker 2: movie was about, and also the tabloid case that it
Speaker 2: was loosely based on, which I was brag too young
Speaker 2: to remember, so I had to kind of go back
Speaker 2: and do some research on how heavily based it was.
Speaker 2: But so I was really interested to see this movie.
Speaker 2: I feel like it does like with a movie where
Speaker 2: this is the subject matter, which is I mean, like
Speaker 2: we'll place the trigger warning in this entire episode for
Speaker 2: child sex abuse, for emotional abuse, for kind of every
Speaker 2: sort of toxic relationship dynamic that you could imagine, and
Speaker 2: also women being assholes, which is my favorite one. But yeah,
Speaker 2: so I was really interested to see it. I think
Speaker 2: it's really like well written and well done and well acted.
Speaker 2: I have some thoughts on it. I'm really excited to
Speaker 2: talk about it with y'all. And then I also saw,
Speaker 2: before I prepared for this episode, I went to a
Speaker 2: SAG screening where Julianne Moore and Charles Melton and Todd
Speaker 2: Haynes spoke after the movie, and I thought that the
Speaker 2: way that they discussed what to me felt like a
Speaker 2: very clear theme in the movie to be very interesting.
Speaker 2: So I'm excited to talk about that as well. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but in general, I think it's at least for how
Speaker 2: generally poorly this subject matter is handled in media, that
Speaker 2: this feels like a stronger attempt. And also it is
Speaker 2: about other things to it, and I think it's cool
Speaker 2: how the Natalie Portman character is just sort of this
Speaker 2: embodiment of how cynically media tends to treat abused people.
Speaker 1: True, Kieren, how about you? What's your relationship with this movie?
Speaker 4: So? I watched the film and I remember thinking huh, okay.
Speaker 4: So I didn't really know what it was about, and
Speaker 4: I was curious, and I watched the whole movie and
Speaker 4: then I was like, huh interesting. Interesting. Then I went
Speaker 4: into a kind of wormhole of looking up the source
Speaker 4: material about the movie, and like an interview that is
Speaker 4: by Ausie Press on the film that's about twenty minutes long,
Speaker 4: and it was one of those movies for me which
Speaker 4: I think is interesting. I was like, huh interesting, Okay, cool.
Speaker 4: And then it was like as the evening went on,
Speaker 4: or as I went out, and then like I was like,
Speaker 4: why don't I feel good? Why is there like a
Speaker 4: niggling feeling that like I was weirdly cheated or something
Speaker 4: like what's bothering me? Is what I was the question
Speaker 4: I particularly felt what's bothering me? And it took me
Speaker 4: a while to unravel that. Right around that time is
Speaker 4: when I got Jamie's email saying what movie would you
Speaker 4: like to choose? And that's my history with this film.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited to talk about that feeling that you
Speaker 1: were feeling in a bit. I mean, I am old
Speaker 1: enough to remember the Mary Kay Laturno y, like I
Speaker 1: remember what the cases. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the
Speaker 1: movie is loosely based on Mary Kay Laturno, who was
Speaker 1: arrested in the late nineties on two counts of child
Speaker 1: rape because she sexually abused a twelve year old boy
Speaker 1: named and I might get this pronunciation wrong, really Fullau
Speaker 1: And yeah, I remember when this was in the tabloids
Speaker 1: and just like the regular news, like this story was
Speaker 1: covered very heavily in ninety seven when it happened.
Speaker 2: What was your memory of like how it was covered.
Speaker 1: I was eleven at the time, so I don't think
Speaker 1: I had quite like a nuanced enough interpretation. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe this is just like me retroactively having like my
Speaker 1: adult brain and being like, yeah, I remember it being
Speaker 1: super sensationalized, but I don't know if that's actually true.
Speaker 2: I think so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just remember it was covered very heavily, and
Speaker 1: I do remember a lot of people's responses to it
Speaker 1: just like people my own age. There were boys that
Speaker 1: I went to school with who would have been around
Speaker 1: the same age as the survivor of this abuse, who
Speaker 1: were like, oh, I wish you know X, Y and
Speaker 1: Z teacher would do this to me, and like just
Speaker 1: that was a lot of the response that I was
Speaker 1: hearing from, like my peers. It was a bizarre time.
Speaker 4: Can I say One thing I do find really fascinating
Speaker 4: is how when you are a kid, especially when you're
Speaker 4: kind of like going into those teenage years, how much
Speaker 4: of a grown up you feel like, and how certain
Speaker 4: that adulthood can feel to you, even to the point
Speaker 4: where like I've had like a nephew, Like and I
Speaker 4: remember like taking my nephew around and I was like,
Speaker 4: we're gonna stay until ten and he's like, no, I'm
Speaker 4: putting my foot down and I have to like kind
Speaker 4: of stop and be like, no, wait, I'm the grown up.
Speaker 4: I'm the grown up. No, no, no, I pick when we
Speaker 4: go to sleep, you know what I mean, Like, you're
Speaker 4: still a kid.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And I think about that with something like the movie Kids,
Speaker 4: you know, like watching it when I was in college
Speaker 4: or something and seeing it and kind of being like yeah,
Speaker 4: this is how kids are versus then seeing it as
Speaker 4: a grown up and then being like oh no, oh no,
Speaker 4: oh no, oh no, how terrible. Oh no, that's the
Speaker 4: differential I hear when you're talking about those boys, which
Speaker 4: is just a really interesting developmental difference, you know.
Speaker 1: For sure.
Speaker 2: One of the things I appreciate about this movie is
Speaker 2: like it attempts to comment on like how media portrayed
Speaker 2: cases like this through the Natalie Portman character, which we'll
Speaker 2: like get into, but when she's like being tasked with
Speaker 2: helping to cast like an underage actor and she's giving
Speaker 2: notes that they're like, quote unquote not sexy enough, and
Speaker 2: then when you see the product at the end of
Speaker 2: the movie, the character has clearly been aged up, which
Speaker 2: almost always happens in movies of this nature, which in
Speaker 2: some ways it's I think a positive thing, certainly for
Speaker 2: the actor, Like you don't want that to be happening
Speaker 2: to a twelve year old actor. Again, interesting that Natalie
Speaker 2: Portman is in this because she's in Leon the professional,
Speaker 2: which is very much that kind of role. And Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's so many weird layers to this movie. But then
Speaker 2: it also as a viewer conditions you to think that
Speaker 2: a thirteen year old isn't a thirteen year old, a
Speaker 2: thirteen year old as a sixteen year old, and a
Speaker 2: sixteen year old as a twenty two year old. And
Speaker 2: it's like the way that it's also weird that we
Speaker 2: have Charles Melton because that's what Riverdale is. You know,
Speaker 2: he's like thirty years old playing a seventeen year old. Sure,
Speaker 2: I don't know, like, yeah, this movie touched I guess
Speaker 2: I have thoughts on it. But this movie did end
Speaker 2: up touching on way more than I thought it was
Speaker 2: going to on, like the way that stories about child
Speaker 2: sex abuse are covered and then subsequently like portrayed, because
Speaker 2: Natalie Portman's character really thinks she's doing something when in.
Speaker 1: Fact, she is part of the problem, the most evil
Speaker 1: person alive.
Speaker 2: I can't say. The one thing I like about her
Speaker 2: character is that she openly hates her fiance because it
Speaker 2: seems like he sucks. Yeah, and so that's the one
Speaker 2: that's the one place where I'll be like, all right,
Speaker 2: I see it.
Speaker 1: Well, let's get into it with the recap, but before that,
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back,
Speaker 1: and we're back here. We are Okay, so here is
Speaker 1: the recap, and we'll place another content warning here for
Speaker 1: child sex abuse, emotional abuse, rooming, things of that nature.
Speaker 4: I just do want to apologize for covering this film
Speaker 4: one more time. Takes a lot, Karen, So sorry, so sorry.
Speaker 1: I mean these things must be discussed.
Speaker 2: So, no, it's true, and it's not the first. Virtually,
Speaker 2: it's not the first. I was it might be the first.
Speaker 2: I were talking about. Well, it doesn't matter. We've talked
Speaker 2: about the show before many times.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Also, Kieren, feel free to jump in that. It's a
Speaker 2: very open summary discussion.
Speaker 1: Okay. So we are in Savannah, Georgia, and we meet
Speaker 1: Gracie played by Julianne Moore. She's prepping for a barbecue
Speaker 1: with her husband, Joe played by Charles Melton, who is
Speaker 1: noticeably much younger than Gracie. There's talk of a movie
Speaker 1: star named Elizabeth Barry who is going to be there
Speaker 1: doing research for a role, and she'll be shadowing Gracie
Speaker 1: because Elizabeth is playing Gracie in an upcoming movie.
Speaker 2: She keeps calling it art house. It is revealed at
Speaker 2: the end that it appears to be lifetime, right, She's like,
Speaker 2: it's an art House movie. I was like, oh no,
Speaker 2: I don't know. It seems like you're in Burbank, got
Speaker 2: their ass.
Speaker 4: Wow, a lot of Burbank shade. Wasn't expecting Burbank shade.
Speaker 1: I mean dunking on the valley.
Speaker 2: Wow, just just throw a grenade to start the discussion.
Speaker 4: Sure, Burbank hasn't had enough difficulties.
Speaker 2: Hasn't Burbank been through enough? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Exactly. Wow, I wasn't expecting that from this.
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry I didn't sleep last day. All due
Speaker 2: respect to Burbank. I love Burbank.
Speaker 1: I mean they have three AMC's all within a like
Speaker 1: five hundred foot radius of each other.
Speaker 4: Yeah, some of your best friends live in Burbank, y'all.
Speaker 4: We've heard it all before.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'll never live it down.
Speaker 1: Okay. Anyway, So Elizabeth Barry we meet her on screen.
Speaker 1: She's played by Natalie Portman. She shows up to Gracie's
Speaker 1: house and gets acquainted with everyone, including Gracie and Joe's
Speaker 1: teenage kids, twins named Charlie and Mary. Gracie seems apprehensive
Speaker 1: about this situation where this movie is being made about her.
Speaker 1: There's mention of, you know, like getting the story right.
Speaker 1: And making sure Gracie is seen and understood. There's a
Speaker 1: friend of Gracy's who tells Elizabeth, like, be kind in
Speaker 1: your portrayal of Gracy. Also, we see that someone has
Speaker 1: sent Gracey a box of like literal shit in the mail.
Speaker 1: So something's going on. We don't quite know what exactly yet, and.
Speaker 2: It already like we covered sense a Boulevard yesterday, and
Speaker 2: it's just like already just a real week of characters
Speaker 2: that are women in their fifties who have an entire
Speaker 2: scary bubble to protect them from reality and surrounding them
Speaker 2: from moment one.
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed. So then Elizabeth starts studying Gracy and going
Speaker 1: through tabloids from the ar early nineties, and we get
Speaker 1: a glimpse of who Gracie is and what her story is.
Speaker 1: She had spent time in prison, she gave birth while
Speaker 1: she was in prison, and there are pictures of her
Speaker 1: with a very young Joe We're talking like middle school age,
Speaker 1: so things are starting to come into focus. Elizabeth spends
Speaker 1: more time with Gracy, asks her and Joe a bunch
Speaker 1: of questions. We learn that Gracie's eldest son from a
Speaker 1: previous marriage. His name's Georgie is the same age as Joe.
Speaker 1: We also learn that Gracy and Joe met when he
Speaker 1: came into a pet store where she worked. He was
Speaker 1: looking for a job, so we're getting more details. And
Speaker 1: then Elizabeth meets with Gracie's ex husband, Tom and he
Speaker 1: confirms the full story, which is that Gracie, in the
Speaker 1: early nineties, when she was thirty six years old, started
Speaker 1: an affair aka committed child sexual abuse with Joe when
Speaker 1: he was thirteen years old. Then Elizabeth continues her research,
Speaker 1: interviewing people around town, such as the owner of the
Speaker 1: pet store where Gracie was caught sexually abusing Joe. She
Speaker 1: talks to Gracie's defense attorney, as well as Gracie's older son, Georgie,
Speaker 1: who tells Elizabeth that this ordeal ruined his life. There's
Speaker 1: also ongoing tension between Gracey and Elizabeth because Gracey still
Speaker 1: just seems uncomfortable about the idea that this movie is
Speaker 1: being made. She thinks that like Elizabeth is just kind
Speaker 1: of like meddling and always around too much, which is true,
Speaker 1: which is true, she is yes, And then there's a
Speaker 1: different kind of tension between Elizabeth and Joe. She points
Speaker 1: out that they're the same age more or less, and
Speaker 1: it also feels like Elizabeth is trying to flirt with
Speaker 1: Joe when she goes to visit him at work. Joe
Speaker 1: tells Elizabeth, people act like I'm some kind of victim.
Speaker 1: But Gracie and I have been together for twenty four years.
Speaker 1: Why would I stay if I wasn't happy? And it's
Speaker 1: not clear at this point how Elizabeth feels about this
Speaker 1: whole situation. Then things start to really fall apart. We
Speaker 1: see Gracie having a meltdown, although the thing that she's
Speaker 1: crying about is cake, because she's like a professional baker.
Speaker 2: Right, But even that is like not exactly true, because
Speaker 2: he's like another sunset full of our overlap where it's
Speaker 2: like all of Normandesmond's fan mail is written by her butler,
Speaker 2: all of Gracie's cakes are purchased by her neighbors just
Speaker 2: to like quote unquote keep her busy, right, which, yes,
Speaker 2: very bleak.
Speaker 4: Why did they live in such a nice house?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I asked that so many times, and my boyfriend kept
Speaker 2: making excuse. He's like, maybe she sold her life, right
Speaker 2: that maybe that's why. I was like, maybe, but that's
Speaker 2: the only thing because it doesn't it doesn't make it
Speaker 2: sound like either of them wrote a book. He works
Speaker 2: as an X ray tech which is a good job,
Speaker 2: but not like mansion good job. Like I don't understand.
Speaker 4: It's a weird thing where it's like a lot of
Speaker 4: the issues I have with this Like I love that
Speaker 4: it's two women to strong female leads, whatever, but like
Speaker 4: a lot of my issues with this movie are actually
Speaker 4: around class and the treatment of the Charles Melton character.
Speaker 4: The lack of development of that little boy for sure,
Speaker 4: the fact that he is a prop in this movie,
Speaker 4: the fact that none of the relationship is explored, the
Speaker 4: fact that you know, you're saying it's an interesting commentary
Speaker 4: Jamie on like the press and the predatory nature of
Speaker 4: the media. But Julian Moore is letting these people into
Speaker 4: her home is the other piece of it. So there's
Speaker 4: there's definitely like a duality to that. Also, I just
Speaker 4: think back to film school or any time that like,
Speaker 4: not that I went to film school, but what I've
Speaker 4: heard that people who went to film school have said
Speaker 4: is like, isn't there always like something about being first
Speaker 4: person and verite, which is kind of like, you know,
Speaker 4: understanding this like hology, the depth of the psychology of
Speaker 4: like verite in terms of putting somebody in the firestorm
Speaker 4: of the most interesting action, and the immense privilege that
Speaker 4: comes with like having this very slow burn, Like you
Speaker 4: took the least interesting approach on this insane topic, Like
Speaker 4: you did it through the point of view of a
Speaker 4: lifetime movie actress walking into the home of like the
Speaker 4: twenty four year relationship between a teacher and a child,
Speaker 4: and we follow Natalie fucking Portman.
Speaker 2: What are we doing.
Speaker 4: We're talking about hot dogs and cake. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: I know I'm excited to discuss this further when we
Speaker 1: like get into the full discression.
Speaker 4: Sorry, and I interrupted your very thorough breakdown. I mean,
Speaker 4: you don't even have to watch this film.
Speaker 1: I love it, but like these are the things that
Speaker 1: we do want to talk about, so we'll get to it.
Speaker 1: But anyway, Gracie's having a breakdown because someone stopped ordering
Speaker 1: her cakes, and I'm like, sh okay. Anyway, Then there's
Speaker 1: a scene where Joe also breaks down and cries because
Speaker 1: he's high on drugs, and we sense that he's like
Speaker 1: starting to maybe kind of interrogate things from his past.
Speaker 4: And Caitlin, he's never done drugs before. Right, he does
Speaker 4: drugs on his roof with his teenage son, and his
Speaker 4: teenage son gives him the drug, right, and he's never
Speaker 4: done them before, indicating some level of like, you know.
Speaker 1: Rested development. Perhaps.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with you, Karen that
Speaker 2: Joe is an underdeveloped character who has been sidelined in
Speaker 2: these narratives his whole life and is still being sidelined
Speaker 2: twenty four years later. Like, it's still very clear that
Speaker 2: Gracie feels like she is the romantic protagonist of this story,
Speaker 2: and it's like he's sidelined in every single way, including
Speaker 2: in this movie. So I feel like I had to
Speaker 2: like cling to little details like and he's never got
Speaker 2: to smoke weed because of the way his life has gone.
Speaker 2: And also just like how tremendously controlling she is. Like
Speaker 2: one of the first details that I picked up on
Speaker 2: is like when he enters the scene for the first time,
Speaker 2: she's like, that's two beers today, and it's like, oh
Speaker 2: my god.
Speaker 1: Let the man live away from you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can get the creditor.
Speaker 1: Let him go anyways, Yes, Then we get a scene
Speaker 1: with a graduation dinner because their twin kids are about
Speaker 1: to graduate from high school. And afterwards, Elizabeth talks to Georgie,
Speaker 1: Gracie's adult son, who tells Elizabeth that Gracie's older brothers
Speaker 1: sexually abused her starting when she was twelve years old,
Speaker 1: but that Gracie refuses to talk about it, and she
Speaker 1: still has a close relationship with these brothers, it seems.
Speaker 1: Then Joe gives Elizabeth a ride home and they kiss
Speaker 1: and they have sex, and she keeps telling him that
Speaker 1: he's young and he could leave Gracie and start over,
Speaker 1: and he's like, no, I would destroy her and this
Speaker 1: is my life we're talking about, and he gets upset
Speaker 1: and storms out, and then he goes home and has
Speaker 1: a conversation with Gracie where he's like, hey, like what
Speaker 1: if I was too young when we got together?
Speaker 2: And she shuts it down.
Speaker 1: The emotional abuseome manipulation really amps up here, where she's like,
Speaker 1: you're the one who seduced me and he's like, I
Speaker 1: was thirteen, and she refuses to listen to him or
Speaker 1: allow him to express his feelings and she storms off.
Speaker 2: And that whole scene is okay, I forget if we've
Speaker 2: talked about this already, but like that whole scene is
Speaker 2: pretty directly pulled from an actual interview that Mary Kayla
Speaker 2: Turno did on television, Like it's horrific hearing it in
Speaker 2: a private setting, but then when you go and watch
Speaker 2: the clip, you're like, it's just like so horrible and
Speaker 2: uncomfortable to watch.
Speaker 4: It's the who's the boss line, like like she had
Speaker 4: pieces so many times in the Yeah, who's in charge?
Speaker 4: Or who is the boss? Who's the boss? I thought
Speaker 4: that was the most interesting scene in the film. To me,
Speaker 4: that felt like the starting point of a film. You know,
Speaker 4: that felt like like from there, from that jumping off point.
Speaker 1: Now let's explore Joe.
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's figure out who Joe is and let's figure
Speaker 4: out what this is. And the fact that that was
Speaker 4: the culmination of this movie. It took a while to
Speaker 4: settle in because I do think the directing is good.
Speaker 4: I think all of I think, especially Natalie and Juliane
Speaker 4: are both like incredible actors. Like, so kudos to like
Speaker 4: the makeup scene, which I know you didn't mention, Caitlin,
Speaker 4: where the two of them are putting on the makeup
Speaker 4: is like I thought that was very compelling, Like when
Speaker 4: Natalie does the monologue. It's very compelling, Like just the
Speaker 4: performances are really marvelous, so I can understand why they
Speaker 4: were attracted to the performances. But from a storytelling point
Speaker 4: of view, I was just like bruh, Like.
Speaker 1: Way to focus on the least compelling and least important.
Speaker 1: I would say part of this narrative, bah rah oh
Speaker 1: ruh was my answer. Okay, so Gracie kind of is
Speaker 1: manipulating him, and she shuts this conversation down. Then we
Speaker 1: cut to Elizabeth rehearsing a monologue where she's impersonating Gracie.
Speaker 1: You know, she's like preparing for this performance she's going
Speaker 1: to give in the movie. The words that she's rehearsing
Speaker 1: are presumably coming from a letter that Gracie had given
Speaker 1: to Joe at the start of their relationship. Joe gave
Speaker 1: this letter to Elizabeth, and now she's like performing this
Speaker 1: as a monologue, and in the letter, Gracie acknowledges that
Speaker 1: she crossed a line that what she's doing is illegal
Speaker 1: and unethical, So she knew at the time what she
Speaker 1: was doing.
Speaker 2: She lies about the whole movie that she like, and
Speaker 2: that was like an element of the Barry Kayla turta
Speaker 2: story too. She was like, I was not aware that
Speaker 2: sexually a music a child was illegal.
Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, fuck you. You're like, girl, you're
Speaker 4: a teacher.
Speaker 2: You're a teacher, You're a thirty six year old teacher.
Speaker 2: You've fucking freak.
Speaker 1: Anyways, yes, okay. So then it's the day of the
Speaker 1: twins graduation and Gracie approaches Elizabeth afterward and she's like,
Speaker 1: you know that thing that my son Georgie told you
Speaker 1: about my brothers, that was a lie. Georgie is really insecure,
Speaker 1: but not me. I'm a very secure person. Parentheses put
Speaker 1: that in the movie bone Chilling, and we're like, ah.
Speaker 1: And then we cut to the set of the movie,
Speaker 1: the biopic that Elizabeth is shooting about this ordeal, and
Speaker 1: it's fucking creepy and gross the end.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Katelin, can I just add that in that
Speaker 4: last scene where it was like Julian Moore approaches Natalie Portman,
Speaker 4: which she's like, my son told you that that and
Speaker 4: none of that was true. Natalie was like, oh, wait,
Speaker 4: what you know? Wait he told you that? And then
Speaker 4: she goes, of course I speak to him every day,
Speaker 4: and there's kind of like this in the same way
Speaker 4: that like what's her relationship with it? Like if you're
Speaker 4: looking for the breadcrumbs of it, it's like, what is
Speaker 4: that relationship with that son?
Speaker 2: Then no idea, Like that scene is consistently baffling to me,
Speaker 2: where I'm like, there's no reason to believe Gracie. She's
Speaker 2: complaintly delusional, but also because of what she put her
Speaker 2: family through, her son is not a reliable narrator either.
Speaker 2: That like horrible cringey scene where he's like, I will
Speaker 2: give you information for your.
Speaker 4: Be that yeah, if you let me be the music supervisor.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, He's like, I know good songs, and you're like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I hate this whole it's just a catastrophe.
Speaker 4: And then the other one was when Julian Moore like
Speaker 4: leaves the bathroom because the scene where it's the graduation
Speaker 4: dinner kind of goes terribly wrong, and the children who
Speaker 4: have left the house are kind of like out of
Speaker 4: her grasp or spell and maybe seem to realize that
Speaker 4: their lives have been particularly messed up, and so there's
Speaker 4: a level of rebellion. She gave them a scale for
Speaker 4: their graduation gifts or whatever, and she wanted a beautiful time,
Speaker 4: and then Natalie happens to be in the bathroom at
Speaker 4: the same time. Of one line I do remember thinking
Speaker 4: was like quite interesting, was like the I guess I've
Speaker 4: always been naive, you know, and that's helped me or
Speaker 4: something like Julian Moore says something to that, like I've
Speaker 4: always been naive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this character's obsession with control, including controlling
Speaker 2: how well, wait, should we take a break.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a quick break and then we'll come
Speaker 1: back and really dive into this discussion. So we'll be
Speaker 1: right back and we're back. So, yes, we've already kind
Speaker 1: of started this discussion and let's keep going.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Karen, I want to go back to what you
Speaker 2: were saying about how I mean, I think Joe is
Speaker 2: the character to really art with here because like, I
Speaker 2: completely agree that we we're kept at arm's length from
Speaker 2: him the entire story, and you start to see towards
Speaker 2: the end there are a few really beautifully done scenes
Speaker 2: by Charles Melton. In the scene where he's finally confronting
Speaker 2: his abuser and stating what's happened. I think the scene
Speaker 2: with his son is really good too, and like there's
Speaker 2: a few really good scenes with him late in the movie,
Speaker 2: but for the most part, we're kind of like kept
Speaker 2: it arms length through him, and I wasn't able to like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't hate the framing device for
Speaker 2: this movie, but I also think that there were ways
Speaker 2: that were like obvious to more meaningfully include Joe even
Speaker 2: within that framing device. But then I wonder, I'm like,
Speaker 2: is it possible when it's like, to me, this movie
Speaker 2: should be more about Joe, but then it seems to
Speaker 2: want to be about a struggle for a narrative control
Speaker 2: between Gracie, who's pretty obsessive about getting people to think
Speaker 2: a very certain thing about her that isn't true, and
Speaker 2: she knows that, like, she's not a naive person at all,
Speaker 2: she's a control freak that wants people to think she's naive.
Speaker 2: But that comes at the expense of focusing on who's
Speaker 2: been abused, And I feel like that is like consistently
Speaker 2: an issue, no matter how well other portions of it
Speaker 2: are done. That seems to be like a consistent issue
Speaker 2: in movies about abuse and also just dealing with abuse
Speaker 2: on a longer timeline, because that's so like you never
Speaker 2: see that someone coming to terms with abuse, you know,
Speaker 2: over twenty years later, which is like a common experience,
Speaker 2: and I feel like, yeah, we were kind of cheated
Speaker 2: by not getting to go with Joe on that journey. More.
Speaker 4: Did you see that other movie by that filmmaker that
Speaker 4: was on a I think it was nominated for an
Speaker 4: Emmy and it was about her abuse experience and kind
Speaker 4: of realizing that this relationship that she had when she
Speaker 4: was like thirteen years old was actually an abusive one.
Speaker 1: Was it?
Speaker 2: Did this come out a couple of years ago? Yes, Okay,
Speaker 2: I did. I can't remember what it was called. Oh god,
Speaker 2: I don't. I hate these search terms, but yes, sorry,
Speaker 2: I continue.
Speaker 4: I can't remember the name of that film, but I
Speaker 4: remember thinking the psychology of that film was so illuminating,
Speaker 4: And even the way we are discussing this film now
Speaker 4: feels like it has more depth and substance than what
Speaker 4: was put on the page in the movie I watched,
Speaker 4: And it's like the audacity to take this topic if
Speaker 4: you don't have the kind of grit to examine the
Speaker 4: psychology of like who these people are, why they are
Speaker 4: the way they are. When the culminating scene is the
Speaker 4: last scene in an actual interview, like when that should
Speaker 4: have been kind of a jumping off point. The whole
Speaker 4: thing felt for me, the kind of you know, the
Speaker 4: third person, like really abstract eye of the framing device
Speaker 4: on top of it to remove you even further from
Speaker 4: that narrative just felt like like again, I watched this
Speaker 4: movie and I was like, oh, that's well directed, that's like,
Speaker 4: these actors are great. And then there was a niggling
Speaker 4: feeling and I was like, why don't I what is
Speaker 4: it that's bothering me? I always felt like something was
Speaker 4: going to happen, and like nothing happened, and it's like
Speaker 4: all in hot dogs and cakes, and like the entire
Speaker 4: movie is existing in these like these scraps that you
Speaker 4: were kind of clawing for, and it never felt like
Speaker 4: it ever came to a head or illuminated anything, or
Speaker 4: came together. And so in that way, it becomes the
Speaker 4: exact voyeuristic exercise that it's trying to comment on, you know,
Speaker 4: because it's offered nothing of actual value into the human psychology.
Speaker 4: This is the last thing I'm going to say, and
Speaker 4: this is a thing that has bothered me a lot,
Speaker 4: and I don't think a lot of people talk about
Speaker 4: it in entertainment. It's like when you watch the real
Speaker 4: interview of the guy, he is like a dark skinned kid,
Speaker 4: you know, and the actor that they cast is a
Speaker 4: biracial actor. You know, he's a pretty like white passing face.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: It's like why is that okay? So much of the time,
Speaker 4: like why are we willing to do that with these
Speaker 4: actors who should be Like, that's a real person. I
Speaker 4: remember seeing that in the Facebook movie and Social Network,
Speaker 4: like there's an Indian guy named Vivia, real Indian guy.
Speaker 4: Anthony Minnguela ends up playing him again very like light
Speaker 4: skinned person lights.
Speaker 1: He's not damn if he's not.
Speaker 2: He's not Indian.
Speaker 4: He's like I mean, and this is like a brown
Speaker 4: dark brown skin. This is a real person, you know,
Speaker 4: and we're we're so specific when it comes to like, oh, well,
Speaker 4: who's a real cab driver or who's a real like
Speaker 4: do you know what I mean? Like all then it's
Speaker 4: all about authenticity. But what do your emergency rooms look like?
Speaker 4: You know, like what do your doctors look like? And
Speaker 4: then what do your doctors on television look like? And
Speaker 4: a lot of that to me, I can I feel
Speaker 4: myself getting angry, and I don't want to be that person.
Speaker 4: I'm reading tichn Han right now to try to deal
Speaker 4: with the seeds of my own anger. But quite frankly,
Speaker 4: I do still blame the world.
Speaker 1: That's the truth it is at though, like you have
Speaker 1: every right to be angry about that.
Speaker 4: But then it's really like what is the eye of
Speaker 4: the person or the institution or the system that is
Speaker 4: making the film and what they deem as like I'll pass,
Speaker 4: that's fine, that doesn't matter, and what is seen as important?
Speaker 4: And I say that specifically because this is a real person,
Speaker 4: you know, this is a real person. And you see
Speaker 4: the casting controversies over like the Little Mermaid being black,
Speaker 4: you know, or fictional characters, like it's just wild to
Speaker 4: me that in these cases where you have a real
Speaker 4: human being, there was no maybe there was an effort made,
Speaker 4: I don't know. And then the irony is that the
Speaker 4: screenwriter is a casting director, you know, so cal like
Speaker 4: girl I found it.
Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of like a two prog thing. First
Speaker 2: of all, this movie is completely disinterested in talking about
Speaker 2: any race or class dynamics in a way that is
Speaker 2: very frustrating because they're right there and it's like, I
Speaker 2: still I do think that this movie is unique and
Speaker 2: that there are elements of it that definitely like I
Speaker 2: haven't seen before that I thought were positive, But it
Speaker 2: is like there's so much that's kind of left on
Speaker 2: the table and leaves you feeling frustrated for days afterwards,
Speaker 2: where it's the only clue you sort of get within
Speaker 2: this relationship that Gracie is very disinterested in dismissive of
Speaker 2: Joe's race, is that she gets it wrong. The one
Speaker 2: time that it comes up, she says, oh, you're the
Speaker 2: only Korean family in the neighborhood. He's like, well half Korean,
Speaker 2: and she's like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then keeps going.
Speaker 2: So it's like this is allegedly someone that she loves
Speaker 2: and can't even you know, isn't even interested in enough
Speaker 2: to get that correct. But outside of that, it goes
Speaker 2: essentially completely undiscussed and unexplored, And I feel like on
Speaker 2: the writer's part, I feel bad, Like she was a
Speaker 2: first time screenwriter. She came out of casting like great.
Speaker 4: Flowers to it all happening, and like it's absolutely an
Speaker 4: impossible business and we were happy for you.
Speaker 2: And the fact that like, you know, women don't get
Speaker 2: to right movies enough. Obviously you could tell a woman
Speaker 2: wrote this movie. All that said, I think that there's
Speaker 2: like just it rubs me in such a weird way
Speaker 2: that this is so obviously the Mary kay Laturno story.
Speaker 2: But in every single interview I've seen that is like
Speaker 2: either like walked back by every single person who's asked
Speaker 2: anything about it. And I feel like Kieran, like speaking
Speaker 2: to your point. One of the things that you can
Speaker 2: get away with by taking a step away from the
Speaker 2: story it's obviously based on, to the point where there
Speaker 2: is an entire scene that is ripped from an interview
Speaker 2: related to this case, is that you could quote unquote
Speaker 2: get away with changing the race of a character and
Speaker 2: casting a lighter skinned actor because you're like, well, it's
Speaker 2: not that story, it's a different story, when that's absolutely
Speaker 2: not true. And then also watching that interview, you can
Speaker 2: see that Villi Fulau is sitting next to Mary Kayla
Speaker 2: Turno incredulous that whole time, where with Joe, it's more
Speaker 2: like in the context of the scene of where we're
Speaker 2: at in the movie, it makes sense, but it's just
Speaker 2: like Joe isn't allowed that sense of incredulousness that is
Speaker 2: reflected in the real story.
Speaker 1: Because when we do see that in Joe's character arc,
Speaker 1: it's not until the last twenty or twenty five minutes
Speaker 1: of the movie, and then we cut away from that,
Speaker 1: and then the rest of the story focuses back to
Speaker 1: Gracie and Elizabeth and then the movie's over. So like
Speaker 1: like you said here and like right when, because sure,
Speaker 1: like the agenda of this movie is to examine, you know,
Speaker 1: like how difficult it is, especially for people who abuse,
Speaker 1: and specifically child sex abuse, for whom it has been normalized.
Speaker 1: Those people having a difficult time kind of interrogating that
Speaker 1: because it has been normalized. But then you know, when
Speaker 1: they start to examine it and think about it and
Speaker 1: acknowledge what happened and reflect, then they start to be like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this was messed up, Like this is
Speaker 1: a very traumatic thing that happened to me, and like
Speaker 1: the movie seeks to explore that process, but it focuses
Speaker 1: way too much on Gracey, not nearly enough on Joe,
Speaker 1: and I would also also say not nearly enough on
Speaker 1: their kids, especially like the twins. It just is like, well,
Speaker 1: but what about that? To me? That scene where Gracie's
Speaker 1: putting the makeup on Elizabeth. I was like, what is this?
Speaker 1: Why is this? He cut it? I don't care about this, Like,
Speaker 1: I just found it unnecessary to the more core story here,
Speaker 1: which is, like, what does it look like when someone
Speaker 1: for whom sex abuse child sex abuse has been so normalized?
Speaker 1: What does it look like when they do start to
Speaker 1: interrogate that and feel their feelings and try to confront
Speaker 1: their abuser, and like that, why isn't that the core
Speaker 1: of the story?
Speaker 4: And what is the conversation around sex with your children?
Speaker 4: What is it when your child brings home a partner?
Speaker 4: Like what is like?
Speaker 2: Seems like? Nothing like?
Speaker 4: And and then the other thing is if you're taking
Speaker 4: from that interview, if you're literally ripping from that interview,
Speaker 4: the thing about Villy is he actually seems pretty smart
Speaker 4: in the real case, came from like a broken family
Speaker 4: and says very specifically in that interview, he says, I
Speaker 4: wanted my children to live in a two parent home
Speaker 4: so that they had that growing up. Like there's a
Speaker 4: point of view there that's clear and it's quiet and
Speaker 4: it's strong, but like there's absolutely a point of view
Speaker 4: if you're paying attention when you watch that interview and
Speaker 4: I think, to me, this film is a really interesting
Speaker 4: lesson and who gets attention? Who gets to be paid
Speaker 4: attention to even in a story like this one, Because
Speaker 4: the most interesting thing about this story for me was
Speaker 4: the story, not the storytelling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I feel like, ultimately, like if you're
Speaker 2: coming to this movie hoping to get a what we
Speaker 2: never get in stories about specifically child sex abuse and
Speaker 2: people recovering from child sex abuse, which is a focus
Speaker 2: on that you're gonna leave disappointed. I feel like the
Speaker 2: way in which I was able to engage with this
Speaker 2: movie is because these movies almost universally in a way
Speaker 2: that this movie is not different centers the abuser. I
Speaker 2: think that the one strength of this movie is that
Speaker 2: I don't think it like leaves you wondering like is
Speaker 2: she a good person? Which a stunning number of these
Speaker 2: movies do of, Like, not only is the story of
Speaker 2: Lolita centered on Humberd Humbred, there is like ways that
Speaker 2: a lot of people leave the movie adaptations of that
Speaker 2: being like this was a tragedy. Ultimately, this is a
Speaker 2: romantic tragedy. So not only do we have no interest
Speaker 2: and active demonization done of the victim, but you have
Speaker 2: this sort of bizarre, underhanded redemption arc for the abuser.
Speaker 2: I think that this movie lays out pretty clear, especially
Speaker 2: like on repeat viewings, that like she is delusional, she
Speaker 2: is unapologetically a monster, she will never face herself, which
Speaker 2: seems to be the experience of Mary Kayla Turno who
Speaker 2: died in twenty twenty, and so in that way, I
Speaker 2: think it is interesting saying the Natalie Portman character. Honestly,
Speaker 2: I like the idea of it, and like I feel
Speaker 2: like there are a few moments where it felt valuable
Speaker 2: where you see Natalie Portman so actively taking part in
Speaker 2: the continued exploitation of this story, the continued like her
Speaker 2: whole job there is to focus on the abuser, which
Speaker 2: is why I feel like it takes her a while
Speaker 2: to get even develop an interest in Joe, and when
Speaker 2: she does develop an interest in Joe, it's gross. She
Speaker 2: goes to the pet store and tries to fantasize what
Speaker 2: it was like for Gracie to sexually abuse him in
Speaker 2: a pet store, and it's like framed as like this
Speaker 2: is such a goofy thing that I'm doing. I don't
Speaker 2: think the movie thinks she's right for doing that, And
Speaker 2: I think it's like really gross to have to watch
Speaker 2: someone so invested in exploiting this and then at the
Speaker 2: end exploiting it badly on top of it. But it
Speaker 2: still makes like all the same, not even like I mean,
Speaker 2: it just like completely turns its head towards who was
Speaker 2: abused and then who gets abused by extension where you
Speaker 2: get moments with Georgie, but then you sort of get
Speaker 2: it suggested like well but Georgie was kind of evil,
Speaker 2: and you're like, well, I don't know, and I agree
Speaker 2: with the kids where it's like everything you know about
Speaker 2: the kids is for the most part in relation to
Speaker 2: her and not him, you know that, like he seems
Speaker 2: to be invested in being a really good father. I
Speaker 2: do feel like, going back to your point, Kreen, like
Speaker 2: if we're comparing Joe and the real life analog, really
Speaker 2: who is of Samoan descent, that he's actively kind of
Speaker 2: dumbed down a little bit. It seems like he's made
Speaker 2: to seem more bumbling, less smart, more easily dismissed by
Speaker 2: the narrative, and she's just like a bulldozer.
Speaker 4: It was, and he was wooden. He struck me as
Speaker 4: quite Wooden like not anyway. Whatever, it's fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the performances are.
Speaker 4: Good here in Stall. It's fine. It's fine. It's whatever.
Speaker 4: We have to move on. But that's literally what this
Speaker 4: podcast is about. We don't have to move on.
Speaker 1: I mean, we can talk about till the Cows Come Home.
Speaker 1: I mean. The movie's other agenda is to examine how
Speaker 1: often something like child sex abuse gets sensationalized and mishandled
Speaker 1: in media, especially you know, tabloids and Hollywood movies, which
Speaker 1: is why that final scene plays out the way it does,
Speaker 1: and why you see Natalie Portman's characters are pan out
Speaker 1: the way it does, because at first, she seems, you know,
Speaker 1: objective about this, as far as like, I'm conducting this research,
Speaker 1: I'm talking to these people, I'm trying to understand how
Speaker 1: they feel, why this happened, all of that stuff. But
Speaker 1: then you see her start to engage in really gross behavior.
Speaker 1: She manipulates Joe into a sexual relationship with her, much
Speaker 1: like his abuser did when he was a child. Like
Speaker 1: it's just I think that that's something this movie handles well.
Speaker 1: Is like that examination of the mishandling of other Hollywood movies.
Speaker 1: But as far as the way this movie's structured, I
Speaker 1: feel like Natalie Portman's character coming in should just sort
Speaker 1: of be a catalyst that gets Joe and their teen
Speaker 1: kids to be thinking about this and interrogating it and
Speaker 1: processing something that they've clearly never had a chance to process.
Speaker 2: Right, It's not even like you need to get rid
Speaker 2: of the Natalie Portman character, because I mean, it's devastating
Speaker 2: to see Joe once again put through the cycle of abuse,
Speaker 2: and Natalie Portman is sort of like peacocky around like
Speaker 2: she's a fucking journalist. She's not, and I think people
Speaker 2: a trusting her as if she is, which is a
Speaker 2: huge miss and I think that that's the mistake that
Speaker 2: Joe makes, is he entrusts her as if she is
Speaker 2: not just a journalist, but an ethical journalist, and she's neither.
Speaker 2: She's on a show called Nora's Arc like she which
Speaker 2: I do think is really funny every time I hear it.
Speaker 2: But I think all three of us sort of agree
Speaker 2: that the movie's mission versus what we would have wanted
Speaker 2: focused on is different. But even going with what the
Speaker 2: screenwriter chose to go, and why can't we see people
Speaker 2: talking behind Natalie Portman's back. She is not God, She's
Speaker 2: not even good at her job. I would have loved
Speaker 2: like especially with the kids and her daughter Mary like that.
Speaker 2: Maybe it is just like the dressing room scene that
Speaker 2: is like so devastating, and like Mary, I wanted to
Speaker 2: see more with all three of them, but with her specifically,
Speaker 2: because it seems that of the three, she is going
Speaker 2: through like coming to terms with who her mother is
Speaker 2: for is who she's been conditioned to believe her mother
Speaker 2: is still loving her mother, and working through that and
Speaker 2: going through like the fact that Gracie's character is at
Speaker 2: different points controlling and critical of all three of her
Speaker 2: children's bodies. It's like, drink milk, you're not strong enough,
Speaker 2: your arms look fat in that dress, and I gave
Speaker 2: you a scale for graduation like she's I think in
Speaker 2: a way that is very typical of like white boomer
Speaker 2: women obsessive about like monitoring their children's weight. But Mary,
Speaker 2: in particularly, it seems like she's going through so so much.
Speaker 2: When she's about to leave this house, they're clearly worried
Speaker 2: about what's going to happen to their dad once he's gone.
Speaker 2: Why can't we see the kids talk to each other,
Speaker 2: Like those are really really interesting conversations, and it makes
Speaker 2: sense that, like the scene with Charlie and Joe and
Speaker 2: the roof is really good and it's also clear and
Speaker 2: just like remembering being a teenager with like a parrot
Speaker 2: who is going through shit or is like emotionally fragile, Like,
Speaker 2: those conversations with them are totally different than the ones
Speaker 2: you have with your sibling where you're like, what the
Speaker 2: fuck is going on? Like they know what's going on?
Speaker 2: Why don't we get any insight? It feels like this
Speaker 2: movie will only be as interested as Natalie Portman's character
Speaker 2: is in anything that's happening, and that seems like a
Speaker 2: huge missed opportunity.
Speaker 4: And if you had her be the lead, it's kind
Speaker 4: of like the inconsistency. Okay, great, this is the framing
Speaker 4: device of the movie. We're deciding that this is what
Speaker 4: we're going with.
Speaker 2: Great.
Speaker 4: Is she a B movie actor that's like in a
Speaker 4: bad thing that isn't good? Or is she like incredible
Speaker 4: at delivering this monologue in an Oscar winning performance? Is
Speaker 4: she you know, genuinely interested? Like there's like a little
Speaker 4: bit of tonal like because Natalie is a pretty invested actor,
Speaker 4: and that's a phenomenal monologue. She crushes the game on
Speaker 4: that shit.
Speaker 2: So it's like, but then it's bad ten minutes later.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, But then it's like, let her be amazing
Speaker 4: at her job so that she can ask better questions
Speaker 4: and we can learn more as an audience, do you
Speaker 4: know what I mean? Like as opposed to being so surface,
Speaker 4: I don't know what the solutions are because it's like,
Speaker 4: in order for you to have the conversations with just
Speaker 4: the siblings or whatever, then she's not around, do you
Speaker 4: know what I mean? Like, there aren't a lot of
Speaker 4: like third person omniscient. It's weird like sometimes it will
Speaker 4: show you just the relationship between Juliane and Charles Melton,
Speaker 4: but like but then it weirdly shifts into like third
Speaker 4: person omniscient, like sometimes but it's mostly Natalie Portman. We're
Speaker 4: looking at everything through every scene, so I don't think
Speaker 4: it quite decided, if that makes sense. So that's the
Speaker 4: only reason I'm saying, like, Okay, but from the lensing device,
Speaker 4: like make an omniscient third and she's one of an
Speaker 4: ensemble of characters, and then we can actually see a
Speaker 4: little bit more like portraiture and it's.
Speaker 2: Like you don't even need to lose the focus that, Like,
Speaker 2: it seems like another big mission of this movie is
Speaker 2: to like, I don't like in a way that the
Speaker 2: more I'm so glad we're talking about that, Like, the
Speaker 2: more that we talk about it, the more it's like
Speaker 2: it is frustrating that, Like Gracie is really obviously needing
Speaker 2: to control the narrative around her life, and she's like,
Speaker 2: I don't know about this movie, but clearly if she
Speaker 2: can get Natalie Portman on her side, that is a
Speaker 2: huge win for her in controlling this narrative. And she
Speaker 2: wants to, you know, be like we are a normal family,
Speaker 2: we are happy. Why would you portray us, you know otherwise.
Speaker 2: But like there's a way to like even still center
Speaker 2: how she is being controlling without giving the lens to
Speaker 2: Natalie Portman. Then, like, even if you give it to
Speaker 2: Julianne Moore, you still get a lot more insight into
Speaker 2: what this family is. Like, I mean, you do get yeah,
Speaker 2: like Karrian, You're right, you do get those moments where
Speaker 2: you're back in the house and it does shift to
Speaker 2: Joe in moments, But it's like only to an extent
Speaker 2: and only really to the extent that it serves Gracie
Speaker 2: or Elizabeth's story, not outside of that, except I think
Speaker 2: the only real exception to that is the scene with
Speaker 2: his son and the scene this father. Those are the
Speaker 2: only two like moments we get to see Joe, and
Speaker 2: then when he's texting his secret girlfriend and I'm like,
Speaker 2: go to her, go to her whatever, go get the
Speaker 2: butterfly girlfriend, get out of there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we also don't have any sense of how
Speaker 1: Joe's father or Joe's son feels about this situation, except
Speaker 1: like a tiny little glimpse where Charlie when they're on
Speaker 1: the roof and he says just something like I can't
Speaker 1: wait to leave home, implying this situation's fucked up. And
Speaker 1: I had thought it was normal because that's all I knew.
Speaker 1: But when I sat down and thought about it off screen,
Speaker 1: maybe it's not great and I want to leave. But
Speaker 1: we can only sort of speculate it what he's feeling.
Speaker 2: I also want to know, like why if we have
Speaker 2: the older sister Honor who is out, and I think
Speaker 2: she's like more empowered to be like this fucking sucks
Speaker 2: now that she's out. She has like incredible freshman year
Speaker 2: in college energy I really love her where she's just
Speaker 2: like you guys fucking suck like and she's right or
Speaker 2: her mom fucking sucks and she treats her as such.
Speaker 2: But it's like, does Honor talk to her half siblings?
Speaker 2: Like is that something that is? It doesn't seem like that,
Speaker 2: but we don't know for sure. It seems like in
Speaker 2: my mind, why wouldn't once you're out of that house,
Speaker 2: why wouldn't you want to go talk to your half
Speaker 2: siblings and sort of have some validation of how fucked
Speaker 2: it is to have to be in Gracie's life at all,
Speaker 2: much less be her child. Like there, I don't know,
Speaker 2: there's a million relationships that you can explore, but it
Speaker 2: just more focused on like the bubble that is carefully
Speaker 2: built around Gracie to protect her, and that mission has
Speaker 2: made clear super early because it's like Kaitlyne, what you
Speaker 2: were saying with the neighbor being like be nice to her.
Speaker 2: We know that the lawyer's wife buys a million pineapple
Speaker 2: upside diame cakes from her to make her feel like
Speaker 2: she is liked. No one is worrying about Joe. Joe
Speaker 2: is a critical component to preserving Gracie's reality. And that's
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that that like does reflect real
Speaker 2: life dynamics that happened, but like get more into it.
Speaker 4: It's also like you can show how controlling somebody is
Speaker 4: by all the people around them who talk about them
Speaker 4: behind their back. It's all those conversations around somebody that
Speaker 4: you can be like, oh, this is the way that
Speaker 4: they're manipulative, because then you can watch their behavior but
Speaker 4: then see how that plays in contrast, even down to
Speaker 4: like that dinner table conversation when the teenager like stomps
Speaker 4: upstairs and he doesn't have the milk something. It's like
Speaker 4: if Julianne Moore was just like teenagers, you know, teenagers,
Speaker 4: you can't control them, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: And it's like but really though, because you fucked one,
Speaker 4: you know. So it's like the kind of like if
Speaker 4: you could even just twist the knife a little bit
Speaker 4: deeper into like having the character have to confront some
Speaker 4: of what she did because of the presence of Natalie
Speaker 4: Portman and the questioning that would come up as a
Speaker 4: result of this person. Because even that Ozzie interviewer in
Speaker 4: that interview does more of it than this film does
Speaker 4: in my opinion. You know, he was like, Mary, you
Speaker 4: were wrong. Mary, come on, you were wrong, Mary, Mary,
Speaker 4: come on, come on, Mary right? And Mary, he was
Speaker 4: a child, Mary, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Like, and then Villie is also sitting right next to
Speaker 2: her being like I was a child. Like it's if
Speaker 2: you're listening to this episode, you haven't seen that interview.
Speaker 2: It's brutal, but it is important to and I haven't seen,
Speaker 2: like I find it really frustrating. So when I went
Speaker 2: to the SAG screen, I was really confused and bothered,
Speaker 2: especially having seen so many movies like this how everyone
Speaker 2: but also Julianne more specifically, and I love Julianne where
Speaker 2: but she will not call this character a child sex
Speaker 2: abuser or an abuser at all, Like it was really
Speaker 2: And at first I was like, maybe this was a
Speaker 2: weird interview, Like I don't know, it felt off to
Speaker 2: me because first of all, the name Mary kay Laturno
Speaker 2: or really fill out did not come up in this
Speaker 2: forty five minute discussion they had, which is already like
Speaker 2: I was like, is there like a life right's evasiveness?
Speaker 2: But then I was like, no, she's dead, Like why
Speaker 2: could we not acknowledge the very very clear source material
Speaker 2: here that which has been consistent in their press tour
Speaker 2: are then julian more specifically, like this is pulling from
Speaker 2: a Todd Fields right.
Speaker 1: Todd Haynes is the director of not Todd Tar Todd Haynes.
Speaker 4: Towar Todd's toward Tod's hard to keep them straight.
Speaker 2: I like his work, but I can't remember it. Sorry,
Speaker 2: Sorry to Todd Haynes. Okay, this is an interview he
Speaker 2: did with Sit and Sound where he's describing what my
Speaker 2: recollection of that Q and A was. So he says, quote,
Speaker 2: I already mentioned how I was not ready to think
Speaker 2: about certain aspects of the Mary kay Laturno story. But
Speaker 2: Julianne had a very strong idea that this woman wasn't
Speaker 2: a pedophile, that she had a princess syndrome, an intense
Speaker 2: kne to be rescued by a young, virile man. It's
Speaker 2: like the myth of the young knight, who, with his
Speaker 2: sheer virility and stunning youth, will save you the damsel
Speaker 2: in distress. This enabled both parties to deny the age difference,
Speaker 2: because the power could shift back into his sure hands
Speaker 2: or whatever. And I did want those lines in the
Speaker 2: final bedroom scene, who's the boss and who is in charge?
Speaker 2: Who is in charge? To suggest the myths that they
Speaker 2: live under. This movie was just so full of extremes
Speaker 2: and exceptions and tabloid excess. It's also about people who
Speaker 2: refuse to look at themselves and the choices they make,
Speaker 2: which we all do, and I knew I also was
Speaker 2: doing unquote, so.
Speaker 1: I like, wait, so Todd Haynes is saying that Julianne
Speaker 1: Moore refused to acknowledge that Mary Kayla Turno was a
Speaker 1: sex criminal and a rapist. Is that what I'm gathering,
Speaker 1: I'm not.
Speaker 2: Totally clear, and I don't want it, Like that's a
Speaker 2: huge thing to level against someone. Yeah, it sounds like
Speaker 2: at least in her process to prepare for this character,
Speaker 2: she was like, well, Gracie doesn't think that she's a pedophile,
Speaker 2: So I as an actor cannot just.
Speaker 1: Like a going method kind of like I have to
Speaker 1: get into this character psyche.
Speaker 2: And it sounds like that, but it's also like, I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know, and then at this point I'm reviewing
Speaker 2: some interviews I watch, but still it's just like it
Speaker 2: is weird to me that she's not playing the part anymore?
Speaker 2: Why can't you comment on this part, like, if you
Speaker 2: have to put yourself in a fucked up heads place
Speaker 2: to play a character to some extent, that's the job,
Speaker 2: that's how a lot of people do it. But you
Speaker 2: filmed this a year ago. Why can't you not like
Speaker 2: acknowledge who you were clearly basing your performance on. Because
Speaker 2: there was a lot of talk about the creative choice
Speaker 2: of the list, but that also comes from Mary Bayla Turnal,
Speaker 2: so like acknowledge, Like, I mean whatever, I just think
Speaker 2: it's a very confusing choice to not acknowledge. To continue
Speaker 2: in the press tour, be like, well, I have to
Speaker 2: honor this character. You're like, no, you don't. Your character
Speaker 2: is a sex abuser. They went to.
Speaker 1: Jail, especially because that's in direct conflict and contrast to
Speaker 1: what this movie's trying to say, which is, look how
Speaker 1: fucked up Hollywood mishandles and how it sensationalizes child sex
Speaker 1: abuse in movies about that, Like.
Speaker 2: It was really the only person and I'm blood so
Speaker 2: like the screenwriter Sammy Birch is like, yeah, I remembered,
Speaker 2: like as I think Sammy Burch is like in her
Speaker 2: late thirties and like remembered basically being the age of
Speaker 2: Villy Fulau when the story happened, Like has talked about
Speaker 2: that at length, but every other major creative player like
Speaker 2: will not go there. And I just think it's weird.
Speaker 2: I don't get it because, yeah, like you're saying, celet
Speaker 2: that feels like it plays into the tropes around these movies,
Speaker 2: because I feel like with these movies, the content of
Speaker 2: them and the way that they're discussed in public is
Speaker 2: like almost equally important. I know that Todd Haynes can't
Speaker 2: control the way his movie has discussed or received, but
Speaker 2: it's just as significant. That's also kind of what the
Speaker 2: movie is about. So I just think it is. I
Speaker 2: just it's been on my mind for weeks. Thank you
Speaker 2: for listening to my Ted talk at Why won't Julianne
Speaker 2: you're Todd Todd, My Todd talk Tod Ted talk. Why
Speaker 2: won't Todd make her talk about this? Why want Tod
Speaker 2: tell her to talk about it?
Speaker 4: Do you remember Jamie that did you? Were you able
Speaker 4: to find the name of that other movie on HBO
Speaker 4: that some other very good actor played.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, there are so many movies about child sex abuse
Speaker 2: on HBO. I can't find the one that I'm because
Speaker 2: I know it came out in twenty twenty or twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one.
Speaker 4: I wish I could tell you. I might be able
Speaker 4: to find it for you later.
Speaker 2: But it's it was really good.
Speaker 4: I just remember watching that. I love the feeling when
Speaker 4: I watch something a feeling illuminated. I just love the
Speaker 4: feeling of feeling like I understood someone else's experience that's
Speaker 4: so different than mine, and you take me into the
Speaker 4: lens of like their erience, even if it's not my experience,
Speaker 4: Like that's kind of to me the magic of the
Speaker 4: storytelling in the filmmaking. And I just remember that that
Speaker 4: film that I cannot remember the name of. Clearly I'm
Speaker 4: terrible with names.
Speaker 1: I don't even remember this coming out.
Speaker 4: It was nominated for an Emmy, Was it okay?
Speaker 2: I don't think I knew a lot of people that
Speaker 2: watched it. I mean, but it's a really hard movie
Speaker 2: to watch.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a hard movie to watch for sure.
Speaker 4: The Tale, The Tale, The Tale, The Tale.
Speaker 2: I totally agree with you, Karen, like it really puts
Speaker 2: in perspective over the course of a couple of hours,
Speaker 2: just like what a difficult experience that is to like
Speaker 2: untangle in your head even well into your adulthood, which
Speaker 2: is what Joe is going through. And the movie only
Speaker 2: shows you the very very beginning of him and like
Speaker 2: leaves him in this interesting place too, where he doesn't
Speaker 2: want to sit next to the family at graduation, but
Speaker 2: he's still so proud of his kids, and you're just like,
Speaker 2: please just get in the car and never go back, please.
Speaker 1: And take your kids with you, like get them out
Speaker 1: of there. Well they're out, that's the thing.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, yeah, I'm just reading this is Wikipedia. The
Speaker 4: Tales are twenty eighteen American drama thal written and directed
Speaker 4: by Jennifer Fox, starring Laura Dern. It tells the story
Speaker 4: about Fox's own childhood sexual abuse and her coming to
Speaker 4: terms with it later in life. So I think it
Speaker 4: was probably because it was her personal story that it
Speaker 4: was like, oh wow, that was a film where I
Speaker 4: kind of watched something and I was like, damn, Like
Speaker 4: I watched someone go on a journey and learn how
Speaker 4: they saw something and then how they learned what something
Speaker 4: else was in a way that I don't know was
Speaker 4: just like wildly elegant. It was a hard movie to
Speaker 4: watch and not a lot of people watched it, you know,
Speaker 4: and maybe that's part of it, do you know what
Speaker 4: I mean, Like, maybe it's all of this is also
Speaker 4: like a game of marketing and distribution and like who
Speaker 4: gets eyeballs for whatever reason, et cetera. You know, But
Speaker 4: that I do think, in contrast to May December, is
Speaker 4: like an interesting counterpoint, just I think specifically because it
Speaker 4: centers the victim.
Speaker 2: It's like and we both liked it and didn't remember
Speaker 2: the name because no one talks about it anymore. It's
Speaker 2: that sort of terrible. The book that I wanted to
Speaker 2: recommend that sort of deals with the same perspective is
Speaker 2: called My Dark Vanessa came out in twenty nineteen twenty
Speaker 2: twenty by Kate Elizabeth Russell, based on experiences from her childhood.
Speaker 2: But it's basically about it's told in flashbacks and in
Speaker 2: the present, where it's about an adult woman coming to
Speaker 2: terms with the fact that she was groomed and sexually
Speaker 2: abused by her teacher and did not believe that to
Speaker 2: be true until she's I think the characters in her
Speaker 2: mid thirties when she starts to deal with it, and
Speaker 2: it's I mean, it's brutal, but it feels like both
Speaker 2: of those projects are doing what you would want and
Speaker 2: what I think should be more common. And this isn't
Speaker 2: a problem specific to May December, but it does feel
Speaker 2: like in a movie that is trying to comment on
Speaker 2: how these stories are told, It's gross to say, but
Speaker 2: I do think it is more marked to center the
Speaker 2: abuser and the stories that are not centered on the
Speaker 2: abuser do not tend to get this same promotional push.
Speaker 2: Because it reminded me, Okay, this is like me being
Speaker 2: a broken record, but it reminded me of doubt Go
Speaker 2: with Me Here, which is a movie that is also
Speaker 2: about child sex abuse, but that there is this mystery
Speaker 2: about the way that that movie is made of, like
Speaker 2: did he do it? That feels completely beside the point
Speaker 2: of like, yes, he obviously did it. Why can't we
Speaker 2: center the family more? Why is Viola Davis only a
Speaker 2: one scene? Why do we barely see the child all
Speaker 2: that stuff? And it feels like, because of the way
Speaker 2: that this movie is framed, the movie ends on this
Speaker 2: weird cliffhanger, like where Julia Moore is just saying shit
Speaker 2: at this point and then you're like, oh, what is
Speaker 2: her deal? And you're like I don't think that should
Speaker 2: be the central question of this movie, Like I, I
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 4: So here's a controversial point. It's like in an industry
Speaker 4: with notoriously so many high powered groomers and sex abusers,
Speaker 4: like I mean, because the thing that's interesting to me
Speaker 4: about the tale that we both don't remember is it's
Speaker 4: also centered on an adult, like it is. It's actually
Speaker 4: I can understand why it would be difficult to watch
Speaker 4: a child, but it's interesting that it's another like very
Speaker 4: prominent like Oscar nominated, brilliant kind of I think caliber
Speaker 4: of like Julian Moore, Natalie Portman like kind of actor.
Speaker 4: It's a great cast, it's beautifully done. Why didn't it
Speaker 4: get the same push? Why didn't that get the theatrical
Speaker 4: We don't know. We don't know what the story is there,
Speaker 4: but there's something. And again this is not the conspiracy
Speaker 4: theorist in me, but it's like, is it a cultural
Speaker 4: thing where it's like the audience isn't down or is
Speaker 4: it like a is it like a gatekeeper thing as
Speaker 4: to what stories we think are like what somebody in
Speaker 4: top position decides to put their push behind good question
Speaker 4: whether that's conscious or subconscious, not even that it's like
Speaker 4: some conspiracy theory and citious thing. But I do think
Speaker 4: it's hilarious that we live in a post Harvey Weinstein world,
Speaker 4: a post Les Moonvez world, running CBS for years and
Speaker 4: then getting out on million dollar deals, and it's just
Speaker 4: like people failing upwards after they're like grooming and sexual
Speaker 4: abuse habits, like even in this business to this day,
Speaker 4: it's like and then we're surprised that, like the stories
Speaker 4: that get centered in this business are the ones that
Speaker 4: like center the abuser and the mystery around them. Like
Speaker 4: is it that surprising?
Speaker 1: Right? It's the same way that our cultures obsessed with
Speaker 1: like true crime from a ooh the serial killer standpoint,
Speaker 1: like ooh, the perpetrators of these crimes, let's learn all
Speaker 1: about them and how did they get to where they
Speaker 1: are and blah blah blah, whereas we rarely remember who
Speaker 1: the victims were, and we don't talk about them and
Speaker 1: we don't remember their names. I don't know. There's just
Speaker 1: something about our current cultural climate that we are, for
Speaker 1: some reason able to more easily stomach learning about and
Speaker 1: hearing stories about criminals and perpetuators. Are these horrible things that.
Speaker 2: I don't even think that it's our current cultural climate. I
Speaker 2: just feel like it's just like a stagnant Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: gone on forever. I don't know. I mean, like, what
Speaker 2: seems abundantly clear is that the stories that are told,
Speaker 2: it's very in line with the stories we see pop
Speaker 2: off and get really pushed in media. The only reason
Speaker 2: this movie exists is because the Mary kay La Turno
Speaker 2: story was treated in the way that it was, to
Speaker 2: the extent that a writer felt, thirty years later the
Speaker 2: need to comment on it because the coverage affected her
Speaker 2: so strongly. But the coverage did not take an interest
Speaker 2: in Billy and mischaracterize it as an affair, which is
Speaker 2: like what this movie is attempting to grapple with. But
Speaker 2: it's like you're just like caught in this fucking feedback
Speaker 2: loop of commenting on how poorly it's talked about. And
Speaker 2: I hope that like this movie being well regarded. I
Speaker 2: don't feel optimistic about it, honestly, but that this movie
Speaker 2: being generally well reviewed, well thought of, will at least
Speaker 2: indicate that there is an interest in confronting these kinds
Speaker 2: of stories, hopefully centering the right people, the people who
Speaker 2: are being victimized and who are surviving on long periods
Speaker 2: of time having experienced this abuse. I also think that
Speaker 2: like this, I mean, who knows how you characterize this movie.
Speaker 2: It like it is objectively weird to be like this
Speaker 2: is a comedy. It's not, But there are moments of
Speaker 2: weirdness and moments of levity in it that I thought, Like, again,
Speaker 2: if there is a movie about survivor of child sex abuse,
Speaker 2: it doesn't need to be tragedy porn, even if they
Speaker 2: are going through something really difficult, Like, you can have
Speaker 2: moments of levity. You can have moments of like be
Speaker 2: a person and experiencing day to day shit and weird
Speaker 2: stuff in your life while grappling with this. If the
Speaker 2: concern is like it's going to be too depressing, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's going to be really difficult to talk about.
Speaker 4: But it's like, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, think how many stand up specials are about a
Speaker 1: comics trauma in some way?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it's possible to have levity to these stories
Speaker 2: and center survivors as opposed to the perpetrators of it.
Speaker 2: But I don't know. And also the two stories we're
Speaker 2: talking about, the Tale and My Dark Vanessa, while like
Speaker 2: closer to what we're wanting to see in storytelling are
Speaker 2: centered around young white women, and like, you don't see
Speaker 2: stories like the fictional character of Joe or the real
Speaker 2: life person really fulau dealt with in anything that gets produced.
Speaker 2: So the fact that the tale comes out and not
Speaker 2: many people get to see it is like, it's just
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's really discouraging.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I will say that when you brought up Caitlin
Speaker 4: the like why is our culture fascinated with the murderers,
Speaker 4: It's like because I've never really been that interested in that.
Speaker 4: But when I hear other people talk about it, the
Speaker 4: thing that I've heard them say, which I thought was interesting,
Speaker 4: is like it's so far from my life, do you
Speaker 4: know what I mean? Or like my life is calm.
Speaker 4: I want my life to be calm. So there's like
Speaker 4: a voyeuristic element of like an escapist voyeuristic element of
Speaker 4: like let me see how like dark and weird other
Speaker 4: people's like fucked up lives are. Because then I go
Speaker 4: back to my life and it's like my kids and
Speaker 4: my family and I like feel good. Or it's like
Speaker 4: I've heard the same reason that people like reality television.
Speaker 4: I just love the drama because I don't like it
Speaker 4: in my life. So this is like an outlet, kind
Speaker 4: of like the way that sports is an outlet for war,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean. Like it's like a way
Speaker 4: to be competitive in like a war sense. I mean
Speaker 4: that's not the way I see it personally, but I
Speaker 4: think that there's an interesting take of Like the other
Speaker 4: question is what do you want from your media? You know,
Speaker 4: and how much space do we have in a market
Speaker 4: place and in this attention economy? Like who gets the attention?
Speaker 4: To that end, I hope you have millions of listeners
Speaker 4: because otherwise I'm going to be devastated.
Speaker 1: We have billions.
Speaker 4: Wow, Okay, great Zuckerberg numbers. I love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, our Patreon is eleven billion people and we don't
Speaker 1: there are not even that many people on the planet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but we have alien listeners from other solar systems.
Speaker 4: Oh that's so chic.
Speaker 1: Yeaeah, pretty cool.
Speaker 2: It's a new pilot program that Patreon's doing. We've had
Speaker 2: a lot of luck with it.
Speaker 1: Just yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean reaching out to new markets is really the move.
Speaker 3: Yea.
Speaker 1: Our reach is far and wide, epernomical.
Speaker 2: It's terrifying.
Speaker 4: What I do think is very funny about the movie though,
Speaker 4: is like I can't think of that many movies that
Speaker 4: have like, oh, like I kind of watch it was
Speaker 4: like okay, And then as time went on, I was like,
Speaker 4: why is this bothering me? I think that's the reason
Speaker 4: I picked it as the one to talk about was
Speaker 4: I was like, it took me a while to figure
Speaker 4: it out because there's enough skill in the way that
Speaker 4: it's done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it does have something to say that is valuable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like I don't think it's a bad movie.
Speaker 2: It's just like not as subversive as it's presenting itself.
Speaker 2: I think it's right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And in a weird way, it's like the insidious
Speaker 4: nature of the way that like the things that were
Speaker 4: wrong with it crept up on me. It's like weirdly
Speaker 4: reflective of like the insidious nature of the entire story,
Speaker 4: do you know what I mean, Like about abuse and
Speaker 4: all of the other Like that's why I thought maybe
Speaker 4: it would be like a kind of a rich discussion
Speaker 4: because everyone has a very specific take, and I guess
Speaker 4: you could argue that that's also good storytelling.
Speaker 1: I mean, it also makes you ponder this movie not
Speaker 1: being that subversive because of who it centers, which is
Speaker 1: privileged white women. Like consider if the Mary kay Laturno
Speaker 1: or like, you know, a woman who abused a young
Speaker 1: boy was a woman of color, that story probably would
Speaker 1: have not gotten nearly the same media coverage that the
Speaker 1: Mary Kayla turnout case Scott or it would.
Speaker 2: Have been treated tremendously differently.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because of the way that like, white women doing
Speaker 1: bad things get so sensationalized in media, and then this
Speaker 1: movie is just kind of like perpetuating that same thing
Speaker 1: of like, well, yeah, we're focusing on the two white
Speaker 1: women of this story versus the survivor of the abuse,
Speaker 1: who is a person of color, and we're barely going
Speaker 1: to focus on him.
Speaker 4: So yeah, and that's all a function of the fact
Speaker 4: that this movie was on the Blacklist and Natalie Portman
Speaker 4: took an interest in it, probably because she played that
Speaker 4: rolling lee on the professional you know, back in the day.
Speaker 2: So we're about like for yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, And so she took an interest in it,
Speaker 4: and she's famous enough to take it to her friend
Speaker 4: Todd Haynes and like, and then he's famous enough to
Speaker 4: know Julian Moore and those people are able to get
Speaker 4: this story made because those people have, like from a
Speaker 4: financier's perspective, it's enough like Cloud that it makes the
Speaker 4: financial investment of the film worth it. So there's like
Speaker 4: also these weird mechanisms where it's almost built in, do
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like it's like if it
Speaker 4: wasn't a prominent like, how many prominent black actors are
Speaker 4: there who could do that? How many prominent POC actors
Speaker 4: are there that have that level.
Speaker 1: Of cloud institutional support?
Speaker 4: Yeah, the institutional support where the name and the attachment
Speaker 4: is like, Okay, we're going to take this first time
Speaker 4: screenwriter's movie and get it made kind of thing, right,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean? Like that's I think that
Speaker 4: there's also like a bias or a skew, just in
Speaker 4: terms of that's a vestige of like you said, culture
Speaker 4: begets culture to an extent, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And then like going off that and again
Speaker 2: I'm presenting it as a hypothetical because I don't know
Speaker 2: because the way that this movie has been discussed it has
Speaker 2: been so bizarre to me, like because of the sort
Speaker 2: of sequence of this script getting handed from person to
Speaker 2: person to person in the way you're describing, was it
Speaker 2: ever handed to anyone who would have had the foresight
Speaker 2: to be like, hey, where's Joe for this section? Or
Speaker 2: just like asking the questions because Charles Melton is the
Speaker 2: least famous lead actor, how empowered do you really feel?
Speaker 2: How included in the conversation do you feel? I don't know,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't seem like at least because I know
Speaker 2: that Todd Haynes worked with Sammy Birch to revise this
Speaker 2: script before he directed it. But it's like there was
Speaker 2: clearly no one in the room. If these conversations did happen,
Speaker 2: I'd be curious what took place, because it's like, I
Speaker 2: feel like you should be tracking Joe in scene to
Speaker 2: scene and like finding points in the movie where you're like, okay,
Speaker 2: if we're not going there with him, why, Like what
Speaker 2: is the narrative function of excluding him at this point
Speaker 2: in the narrative? What is the new and a function
Speaker 2: of not sharing this? Like is this I don't know?
Speaker 2: And again it's just like I think the core frustration
Speaker 2: is they wanted to tell a story that we don't
Speaker 2: think it is as relevant or interesting.
Speaker 4: Which is arts Like you know, it's like I've always
Speaker 4: heard when you give notes on a movie give notes
Speaker 4: on the movie you watch, not the movie you would
Speaker 4: have made. So we have not done that in this podcast.
Speaker 2: Todd Haynes didn't ask us for notes. So we talk
Speaker 2: our shit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we can talk our shit all we want.
Speaker 4: But that's the kind of It's like you said, it's
Speaker 4: not the story they wanted to tell. And I think
Speaker 4: maybe this is too cynical to say, but also maybe
Speaker 4: they just didn't care. You know. I think the one
Speaker 4: thing we don't talk about enough is like a lot
Speaker 4: of times the people in the room just don't care.
Speaker 4: I think they don't care. I just don't think they care.
Speaker 4: It's not that you don't know. It's not that you
Speaker 4: haven't read the articles. Is that the person in the
Speaker 4: room has to give a fus shit, And it's a
Speaker 4: much easier position to pretend you give a fuck or
Speaker 4: to say that you It's exactly the duality you're describing
Speaker 4: with Mary. You know, it's like it's much easier to
Speaker 4: pretend to be a person who can who gives a fuck,
Speaker 4: than to truly face yourself and see the hypocrisy of actually, no,
Speaker 4: he just wasn't that important to me, and anything that
Speaker 4: was confronting and pointed out that it was important to
Speaker 4: me was something I didn't want to listen to, and
Speaker 4: that wasn't given space in that room period. Like not
Speaker 4: in a mean way, but just in a like you know.
Speaker 2: And in like the cynical Hollywood way. It's clear that
Speaker 2: this movie once it was cast, they're like, well, regardless
Speaker 2: of whether these are the most interesting characters, this is
Speaker 2: what we're gonna give everything to because we got Natalie
Speaker 2: Portman and Julianne Moore and no one in this movie.
Speaker 2: Even though I think that there are performances I don't
Speaker 2: love this Natalie Apartment performance, to be honest, Like, there
Speaker 2: are performances that I think exceed and characters that are
Speaker 2: more relevant to the story. But they're like, well, we
Speaker 2: got to keep the famous person on because otherwise Netflix
Speaker 2: executives people turn it off if Natalie Portman's not on.
Speaker 2: Who gives a shit if this character is you know,
Speaker 2: the story or not? Who knows. I know that those
Speaker 2: processes are so, but it's like, I, cynically, I do
Speaker 2: believe that that is sort of why characters get focused
Speaker 2: on that are not as important, and like, oh, for sure,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think the thing about it that, Like, I think
Speaker 4: for the longest time, I thought, Oh, people just don't know.
Speaker 4: And then the longer I've spent I was like, oh, no,
Speaker 4: they don't care.
Speaker 1: They don't they don't want to be bothered.
Speaker 2: Oh they don't care.
Speaker 4: And to understand that, you're like, Okay, then this is
Speaker 4: a whole different thing, and maybe that's. Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 4: It's hard to confront any of our own whatever it is,
Speaker 4: do you know what I mean? Like I try to
Speaker 4: remind myself that I'm like, you know, those iPhones are
Speaker 4: made with like chips that are kind of like ruining countries,
Speaker 4: and I still have an iPhone. I try to remember
Speaker 4: my own hypocrisy even if I'm not faced with that hypocrisy,
Speaker 4: and how easy it is to kind of turn away
Speaker 4: and say I don't want to deal with this because
Speaker 4: like I need my iPhone because of X Y or Z,
Speaker 4: even though I know that where that chip is coming
Speaker 4: from is actively making the world and other people's lives worse,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean. Like it's like hard to
Speaker 4: confront all of your own versions of hypocrisy. So like
Speaker 4: I try to remember that as a human being and
Speaker 4: like have empathy for that position too. You know, but
Speaker 4: I haven't been able to like kind of reconcile the
Speaker 4: understanding of like preaching one thing public facing and then
Speaker 4: the like apathy. Yeah yeah, but the actually I'm just
Speaker 4: like just I wish people would just say, yeah, we
Speaker 4: didn't care, because it's like, let me know where you stand.
Speaker 4: It's kind of like the thing where it's like I'd
Speaker 4: rather just hear, yeah, I'm racist than have somebody pretend
Speaker 4: that they care and then like, actually there's all this
Speaker 4: like insidious shit going on behind the scenes. I'm like,
Speaker 4: at least I can respect.
Speaker 2: Your position that you're aware.
Speaker 4: I respect your take like it sucks and I don't
Speaker 4: agree with you, but like, at least you have this
Speaker 4: self awareness to be like this, who I am, bitch,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, like, and you stand by
Speaker 4: and with that. But we don't live in that world.
Speaker 4: And I think that's why I've never really been a
Speaker 4: fan of Earth.
Speaker 1: And that's why we have so many Intergalactic listeners.
Speaker 4: That Patreon.
Speaker 2: It's so frustrating, and like goes back to what your
Speaker 2: point is is. I feel like there are elements of
Speaker 2: this movie that are trying to make that point while
Speaker 2: doing the same thing where it's like Bracie is a
Speaker 2: character who is aware of what the truth of the
Speaker 2: situation is but would never admit it, and she is
Speaker 2: made out to be kind of the villain of the story,
Speaker 2: when it's like this movie wouldn't have been produced and
Speaker 2: that character wouldn't exist if these same systems weren't already
Speaker 2: in You know, we certainly do live in this society
Speaker 2: tone we Does anyone else have any thoughts on this
Speaker 2: movie they'd like to share.
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say, that's why we do comedy,
Speaker 4: because it feels like the only thing left to do
Speaker 4: is laugh a lot at the times, you know, I
Speaker 4: feel like the only thing left to do is laugh
Speaker 4: and listen. The other thing that's great is that you
Speaker 4: guys do this podcast and you have this space to
Speaker 4: speak about it, Like I wouldn't have said it half
Speaker 4: the fucking shit I said on this podcast in most places,
Speaker 4: And honestly, when we get off this call, I'll probably
Speaker 4: ask you to delete most of it.
Speaker 1: No, what you've contributed here today is very valuable.
Speaker 4: And please don't put these opinions out there.
Speaker 2: Sorry, this was all between us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like a private, private comedy.
Speaker 2: We're just for curious.
Speaker 4: Ye, cool cool cool cool cool, But.
Speaker 2: No, I mean, it's like this conversation was tremendously helpful
Speaker 2: for me to, yeah, just to like tease out, like
Speaker 2: what is working about this? What is it? And why
Speaker 2: is that? I feel like I hadn't gotten deep enough
Speaker 2: into that and why is that? And for a movie
Speaker 2: that just came out, that's a super valuable discussion for
Speaker 2: us to have.
Speaker 4: And it's also interesting to see how much movies are,
Speaker 4: Like the one cool thing about a movie that's coming
Speaker 4: out right now is movies are, to an extent a
Speaker 4: reflection of the moment we're in, the cultural moment we're in.
Speaker 4: And so it's like sometimes if you can ask why
Speaker 4: is that, you also start to understand the society around
Speaker 4: you a little bit better. You know, the society you
Speaker 4: live in, and why you know the way that maybe
Speaker 4: some of the choices in that movie were reflective of
Speaker 4: some of the systems in place, you know, that would
Speaker 4: make that be the movie that was told, which has
Speaker 4: its own value and merit, And like, you know, it's
Speaker 4: also like we all understand that this is a bunch
Speaker 4: of like well meaning artists, I'm sure for the most part,
Speaker 4: who are like trying to make something good and that's
Speaker 4: always hard, and you get the money where you can
Speaker 4: and you fucking run with it. I'm sure all of
Speaker 4: those people have like ten things they are trying to
Speaker 4: get made that can't get made. You know, when you
Speaker 4: listen to like Martin scor says, he's whatever his stories about,
Speaker 4: like spending thirty years trying to make I don't know
Speaker 4: that movie with those old people in it, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this feels like a stepping stone movie
Speaker 1: where it's like cutting in a more right direction but
Speaker 1: still missing the mark in some regards. But it'll open
Speaker 1: the doors to other movies and other stories down the
Speaker 1: road that do more meaningfully explore the things that are
Speaker 1: lacking in this movie, So we'll see.
Speaker 2: I hope that we live in a world where a
Speaker 2: big director not just has the interest but also the
Speaker 2: like institutional support to tell the story of a Joe
Speaker 2: as opposed to intentionally or not. This movie like accomplishes
Speaker 2: further turning Mary Kayla Turno into this American character that
Speaker 2: is still with us, and it's like, come on, guys,
Speaker 2: I can't like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we need a new Todd to make a different movie.
Speaker 2: But I don't incurred that was more Todds.
Speaker 4: That's what we did, all right, More Todds is definitely
Speaker 4: the conclusion of this podcast, and I think we've all
Speaker 4: decided more Todds.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is a future Caitlin and Jamie popping back.
Speaker 2: In as promised. Yes, we're recording this pick up on Wednesday,
Speaker 2: January tenth, if there are more updates. Unfortunately, this is
Speaker 2: why we don't usually cover movies that just came out. However,
Speaker 2: we did want to just sort of touch on a
Speaker 2: few things first. I guess, having had a week to
Speaker 2: sit with the discussion we did in this episode, I
Speaker 2: feel like it was a lot of talk about what
Speaker 2: we would have liked versus what we got, and I've
Speaker 2: been struggling with I've been sitting with this conversation, which
Speaker 2: I'm so glad we had because it was so challenging
Speaker 2: and so like, I don't know, I guess I just
Speaker 2: wanted to add that as much as I think it
Speaker 2: is like clear that it's not necessarily for the good
Speaker 2: of all for there to be this bevy of movies
Speaker 2: that ask you to try to understand the abuser, I
Speaker 2: feel like I might have oversimplified how I approach that.
Speaker 2: I don't think that that is a useless thing to
Speaker 2: attempt within a film. I don't think it's necessarily the
Speaker 2: most important thing. But I was thinking about it just
Speaker 2: from the perspective of how I've heard a lot of
Speaker 2: survivors of abuse talk about, not this movie specifically, but
Speaker 2: movies that tackle these themes. Where as a culture, how
Speaker 2: do we prevent abuse if we don't understand it? And sure, so,
Speaker 2: I just like wanted to add that as an addition
Speaker 2: to what we spoke about. I don't think it resolves
Speaker 2: a lot of the issues that we had to this movie,
Speaker 2: but I don't think that that is like a completely
Speaker 2: cynical and terrible thing to attempt.
Speaker 1: No, And I don't think we explicitly said that. It's
Speaker 1: more just like, why does the focus always tend to
Speaker 1: be off the perpetrator and very rarely on anyone else involved.
Speaker 2: So the other thing that we need to talk about
Speaker 2: is the fact that we obviously discussed the many parallels
Speaker 2: that the story of Made December shares with Mary Kay
Speaker 2: Laturno and Billy Fulau. Since we recorded that the Golden
Speaker 2: Globes have happened, Natalie Portman, Charles Melton and Julianne Moore
Speaker 2: were nominated, so there's a lot of interviews that took
Speaker 2: place in the week leading up to it. Villy Fulau
Speaker 2: actually did watch and release a statement about this, so
Speaker 2: I just wanted to share what that was quickly. I
Speaker 2: think it's very pointed. And then also Julianne Moore and
Speaker 2: Natalie Portman have since reacted to that. So this was
Speaker 2: originally in an interview done with the Hollywood Reporter. You know,
Speaker 2: long story short, no surprise here. He does not like
Speaker 2: the movie and offers clear reasoning why. He says, quote,
Speaker 2: I'm still alive and well, if they had reached out
Speaker 2: to me, we could have worked together on a masterpiece. Instead,
Speaker 2: they chose to do a rip off of my original story.
Speaker 2: I'm offended by the entire project and the lack of
Speaker 2: respect given to me who lived through a real story
Speaker 2: and is still living it unquote, and so I think
Speaker 2: I mean that unfortunately connects to the discussion we were
Speaker 2: having about the fact that the more time that passes,
Speaker 2: I find it incredibly evasive and dishonest that the filmmakers
Speaker 2: are not acknowledging the parts of this movie. I understand
Speaker 2: that it is not one hundred percent biographical. It couldn't
Speaker 2: be because they didn't reach out to him, right, But
Speaker 2: I just think that it's like, for a movie that
Speaker 2: seems to want to make a point about the exploitation
Speaker 2: of survivors and of the media cycle, this press tour
Speaker 2: from May December does not feel challenging of that at all.
Speaker 2: It's extremely evasive. Every single response that you see as that, well,
Speaker 2: it's not based on that. But meanwhile, the climax of
Speaker 2: the movie features direct polls from Mary kay Laturno. Julian
Speaker 2: More discussed watching documentaries about this case. I find it
Speaker 2: really frustrating. His quote continues quote. I love movies, good movies,
Speaker 2: and I admire ones that capture the essence and complications
Speaker 2: of real life events, you know, movies that allow you
Speaker 2: to see or realize something new every time you watch them.
Speaker 2: Those kinds of writers and directors. Someone who can do
Speaker 2: that would be perfect to work with, because my story
Speaker 2: is not nearly as simple as this movie portrays. Unquote.
Speaker 2: So here like again, I feel like I understand just whatever,
Speaker 2: having seen biopics, the limitations of writing a biopic, how
Speaker 2: you are behold into a lot of things that often
Speaker 2: produce a frustrating movie. If that is the case, this movie,
Speaker 2: I don't think like has a case for being transformatively
Speaker 2: different enough from like change more details, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: If you don't want to feel beholden to this real
Speaker 2: life survivor of abuse, who a lot of his biography
Speaker 2: was completely glazed over, Like you can't just change his
Speaker 2: race and make him less smart and be like transformative.
Speaker 2: And I was seeing a lot of like back and
Speaker 2: forth on Twitter that generally fell on the side of
Speaker 2: the movie. I just found it frustrating. What I found
Speaker 2: really frustrating was the actor's response is to this. I
Speaker 2: know that I reference the SAG screening that i'd been
Speaker 2: to Yeah brag, oh okay, where it was my first
Speaker 2: sort of encounter with like this press tour feels weird
Speaker 2: to me that continued. So to be fair, these actors
Speaker 2: are being confronted on a red carpet, so it's not
Speaker 2: like they've had time to put their thoughts together about
Speaker 2: the reaction. It appears that both actors did not. This
Speaker 2: is what we're talking about. Julian Moore Natalie Portman was
Speaker 2: not able to find a Charles Melton reaction, which is
Speaker 2: what I'm most interested in, But what right? In any case,
Speaker 2: I do think Charles Milton was robbed for the Golden Globe,
Speaker 2: But in any case, Yeah, So it seems like Julian
Speaker 2: Moore and Nadelie Portman are learning this for the first
Speaker 2: time on the Red Carpet, So take that into consideration
Speaker 2: with these quotes. Sure, but Julian Moore says, ah, I'm
Speaker 2: very sorry that he feels that way. I mean, Todd
Speaker 2: was always very clear when we were working on this
Speaker 2: movie that this was an original story. This was a
Speaker 2: story about these characters. So that's how we looked at
Speaker 2: it too. This was our document. We created these characters
Speaker 2: from the page and together quote, I just think this
Speaker 2: is not true. This is demonstrably untrue. I just listened
Speaker 2: because why am I mad at Julianne Moore. That's not
Speaker 2: something I want for myself. But that's like not accurate.
Speaker 1: It's just false because there are several interviews that happened
Speaker 1: much earlier that I'm pretty sure Julianne was present for.
Speaker 1: And even if she wasn't, she I feel like would
Speaker 1: have been privy to this information. Where screenwriter Sammy Birch
Speaker 1: specifically referenced the Mary kay Laterno case as being an
Speaker 1: inspiration and then like, right, you know, Julian Moore and
Speaker 1: Natalie Portman have both admitted this story was an inspiration
Speaker 1: but not meant to be a depiction of these real
Speaker 1: life people. It's just an inspiration.
Speaker 2: But it just ends up feeling like in this situation,
Speaker 2: I'm most inclined to empathize with Sammy Birch, who has
Speaker 2: been the most forthcoming. It's her first screenplay. Like, but
Speaker 2: I just I just find this to be incredibly dishonest
Speaker 2: because she mentioned having watched a lot of merycula, and
Speaker 2: I do believe that she did. She look at other
Speaker 2: cultural figures. Sure, I guess it is like it presents
Speaker 2: the question of like, I don't think we've ever talked
Speaker 2: about it in this context, but like what determines commentary
Speaker 2: that is transformative? Yeah, for me, this doesn't clear the bar.
Speaker 2: It feels like and again, we talked about it this movie.
Speaker 2: I liked a lot of what it had to say,
Speaker 2: what it was trying to, like the messages it was
Speaker 2: trying to explore it. We've talked about that for two
Speaker 2: hours at this point, Right, but like it it doesn't
Speaker 2: clear Okay, Julian Moore continues to say, it was a
Speaker 2: very challenging part. She's somebody who has transgressed in a
Speaker 2: major way again evasive language, and I think in order
Speaker 2: to justify what she's done, she sort of tells a
Speaker 2: story about her life. There's a lot of I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's interesting, you know, Natalie's character comes in and these
Speaker 2: two women are in a struggle for narrative dominance. Who
Speaker 2: gets to tell this story, Who's right, who's wrong? Unquote. Okay,
Speaker 2: fair point, but I feel like the reaction to VILLI fulaus.
Speaker 2: It's just doing the thing again. I find it so
Speaker 2: cutly Natalie Portman reacted like this quote. I'm so sorry
Speaker 2: to hear that. It's not based on them. It's you know,
Speaker 2: obviously their story influenced the culture that we all grew
Speaker 2: up in and influenced the idea, but it's fictional characters
Speaker 2: that are really brought to life by Julian Moore and
Speaker 2: Charles Melton so beautifully, and yet it's its own story.
Speaker 2: It's not meant to be a biopic unquote. I find
Speaker 2: I don't know. The more I sit with this, I
Speaker 2: know that everyone, I mean, I can see because there's
Speaker 2: like critics and friends that I respect and take their
Speaker 2: opinion in stride, But I just like it feels like
Speaker 2: this press tour is getting away with something that it
Speaker 2: just really doesn't sit well with me.
Speaker 1: That in getting away with something that the movie seems
Speaker 1: to be critical of, which is how the media handles
Speaker 1: these types of cases.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think both of these sort of stories, the
Speaker 2: villifulau reaction and then the subsequent reaction. I haven't seen
Speaker 2: a lot of coverage about it. I've seen repeated and
Speaker 2: justified praises of Charles Milton's performance. I've seen a lot
Speaker 2: like there are a few May December press narratives that
Speaker 2: have really endured, you know, in the months since it's
Speaker 2: come out. It feels yucky to me.
Speaker 4: Mhmm.
Speaker 2: And that's future Jamie and Kate.
Speaker 1: Yes, and now we dismount and return.
Speaker 2: To the PA. All right, this movie does pass the
Speaker 2: Backfeld test. It does. It simply does. Yeah, And that's
Speaker 2: not necessarily super relevant to the conversation that we've had,
Speaker 2: but true, we always say at the end of the
Speaker 2: episode whether it does, and it does, and I think
Speaker 2: that's all I really have to say about it.
Speaker 1: I agree, let's move on though to our nipple scale,
Speaker 1: our scale of zero to five nipples, where we rate
Speaker 1: the movie examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, and
Speaker 1: I do appreciate the things that this movie is attempting
Speaker 1: to say about the topic of child sex abuse and
Speaker 1: how it's difficult for people to andate, especially if it
Speaker 1: has been very normalized for you, which for a lot
Speaker 1: of people it has because of this rape culture we
Speaker 1: live in, and because of the unchallenged sexualization of underage
Speaker 1: people that exist to this day and has existed for
Speaker 1: all of time, that has been normalized, unfortunately, and the
Speaker 1: movies commenting on that, it is commenting on as a
Speaker 1: byproduct of that, how media and Hollywood sensationalize stories where
Speaker 1: child sex abuse has happened. And yet it doesn't, you know,
Speaker 1: hit the mark all the way because it's still I think,
Speaker 1: you know, we all agree here that it focuses on
Speaker 1: the wrong people. We would have liked to see more
Speaker 1: about Joe's point of view, the kid's point of view,
Speaker 1: how they are processing this, how they're dealing with this,
Speaker 1: all of that stuff. So because of that, I think
Speaker 1: I'm only gonna give it. I'll give it three nipples.
Speaker 1: For what it's trying to do but also what it's
Speaker 1: failing to do. And I will give them two. I'll
Speaker 1: give one to Charles Melton, I will give one to
Speaker 1: real life person Reilly Vulao, and I will give my
Speaker 1: third nipple to all the Todds of the world. All right,
Speaker 1: I'll give it to all the hot dogs. At the
Speaker 1: beginning by raw Dog by Jamie Loftus, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: You're welcome.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go right down the middle here, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: go two and a half nipples. I think, unfortunately it
Speaker 2: is still a big deal in any major release movie
Speaker 2: to acknowledge that an adult woman can sexually abuse a boy.
Speaker 2: I hate that is the case, but that you know,
Speaker 2: up until very recently was not like the way that
Speaker 2: you describe kids at your school talking about it is
Speaker 2: clear evidence of that. Like that that is a fairly
Speaker 2: recent cultural shift that I think that it is like
Speaker 2: net positive to have a successful movie that unequivocally acknowledges
Speaker 2: this was abuse. Yeah, having seen a lot of movies
Speaker 2: about this subject, I think this this movie is definitely
Speaker 2: like better than most, but still commits a lot of
Speaker 2: the same exact problems that we see in movies that
Speaker 2: really mishandle the subject of child sex abuse, as with
Speaker 2: a lot of movies, like right when we talk about
Speaker 2: them after they come out, I feel like we did
Speaker 2: a good job this time. But sometimes it's just like
Speaker 2: when a movie just came out and you don't hate it.
Speaker 2: I feel like you generally give it credit for being
Speaker 2: more progressive or subversive. Then it actually ends up being
Speaker 2: and you reflect on it down the line.
Speaker 1: We have done this in the past.
Speaker 2: It's true the things we said about Captain Marvel, I
Speaker 2: swear to God.
Speaker 1: And Wonder Woman, like ugh, we were so young.
Speaker 2: The point is never again. No, I think that, like,
Speaker 2: I am not unhappy that this movie exists. I find
Speaker 2: it really frustrating. It's doing certain things well and then
Speaker 2: it's ignoring a lot of subjects that you would think
Speaker 2: if it really were like a subversive work, it would
Speaker 2: have more interest in. And also no one movie could
Speaker 2: you tackle an issue as complicated as child's sex abuse.
Speaker 2: And I feel like sometimes it's easy to be like, well,
Speaker 2: I didn't it do everything. It's one movie. Hopefully, like
Speaker 2: you're saying, Caitlin, this is a step towards being able
Speaker 2: to tell a story that it seems like all three
Speaker 2: of us were more interested in And you know, I
Speaker 2: just think, like in all movies right now, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I just am like not really particularly interested right now
Speaker 2: in like narrative movies of like understanding a very evil person.
Speaker 2: And there's so many like that right now, and I
Speaker 2: think that sometimes they're like, but it's a girl boss
Speaker 2: that You're like, I don't. It's still not working for me.
Speaker 2: But anyways, I like Todd Haynes, I love Carol and
Speaker 2: I'm giving this two and a half and I'm giving
Speaker 2: it all to the hot dogs.
Speaker 1: Nice, Yeah, Karen, how about you?
Speaker 4: I'd like to actually rate this on a scale of
Speaker 4: hot dogs as a post to nipples.
Speaker 2: If that's cool, fine, Yeah, as as you're right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'd like to give it. I mean, I
Speaker 4: see this movie as beginning and ending for me. When
Speaker 4: I looked at that grill and I saw those hot
Speaker 4: dogs on the grill, and I think that Jamie really
Speaker 4: said this best. There's not enough people to eat all
Speaker 4: these hot dogs.
Speaker 2: It makes you think were.
Speaker 4: They going to sell them to Costco afterwards? Yeah? It
Speaker 4: makes you think. And I think the enigma of that moment,
Speaker 4: you know, is a metaphor for the enigma of everything
Speaker 4: we've spoken about today. So you may not give this
Speaker 4: movie a lot of nipples, but I will give this
Speaker 4: movie forty hot dogs.
Speaker 1: Of course, amazing out of how many is the max number?
Speaker 4: I'm not so sure.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, that's fair.
Speaker 2: I'm just happy to be with you on this journey.
Speaker 4: You're like, what is the maximum number of pot dogs?
Speaker 4: It's difficult to say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so true, that's so true.
Speaker 4: I feel like we'd have to go back and rewatch
Speaker 4: the movie, and I don't think that's something any of
Speaker 4: us are gonna do.
Speaker 3: Not I.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, it's been a delight to have you, Karen.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on for this truly
Speaker 2: like challenging episode. I mean, it feels weird to be like,
Speaker 2: I had a great time, but I thought this is
Speaker 2: a great discussion. Thank you for We just covered Shrek four,
Speaker 2: so we're pretty you know, like the discourse has just
Speaker 2: been all over the place this month, on the Pods.
Speaker 4: The Donkey Man, love him exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1: Where can people check out your stuff, follow you online,
Speaker 1: et cetera.
Speaker 4: I'm on the internet at shit from Kieran Shit like
Speaker 4: the poop that comes out of your butthole, how foor
Speaker 4: gets delivered to you in the mail if you are
Speaker 4: a character in May December, just shit from Kieran on
Speaker 4: all the platforms on the internet. Forgive me Internet, and
Speaker 4: dear listeners and intergalactic listeners. I did come up with
Speaker 4: that a long time ago, and it was foolish of me,
Speaker 4: and it's too.
Speaker 2: Late to change it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was I did it to myself. I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: this is flippant, but that was ump. That was dumb
Speaker 4: and I have regrets. And here we are.
Speaker 1: And be sure everyone to watch Destroy All Neighbors, starring Kieran.
Speaker 4: No, it's not starring me. It's starring Jonah Jonah Ray
Speaker 4: You're and Alex Winter from.
Speaker 1: Oh Bill and Ted right, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, very nice, gentlemen. And it's a little horror comedy
Speaker 4: and it'll come out on January twelfth, and you guys
Speaker 4: will have to review that movie, not with me, and
Speaker 4: see if that passes the Bechdel test.
Speaker 1: Will it's on the top of our list.
Speaker 4: I won't be listening to that episode, just so you know.
Speaker 4: And I don't want to know how many nipples or
Speaker 4: hot dogs it gets because of my deep sensitive no whatever,
Speaker 4: it's a fun horror comedy.
Speaker 1: Hell yah nice, Well, thanks again for coming on the show.
Speaker 1: You can check us out at Bechdel Cast on Instagram
Speaker 1: and Twitter slash x bla, as well as our Patreon
Speaker 1: at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast. Become a matron yes,
Speaker 1: and you'll get access to two bonus episodes every month,
Speaker 1: plus the entire back catalog. Also check out our link
Speaker 1: tree for tickets to our upcoming tour in early February.
Speaker 1: We're going to cities in California and Texas.
Speaker 2: Why because we've felt like it. That's just how it
Speaker 2: ended up.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then you can also get our merch at teapublic
Speaker 2: dot com slash v Bechdel Cast. And with that, let's
Speaker 2: have a hot dog? Is that the song I kind
Speaker 2: of forget? Bye Bye Bye Bye.
Speaker 1: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Speaker 1: Caitlin Derante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
Speaker 1: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike
Speaker 1: Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Volskrosenski. Our logo in merch
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