1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:02,720
Speaker 1: Hello Bechdel Cast listeners.

2
00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,160
Speaker 2: We we we wu. This is future Jamie and Caitlin

3
00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,280
Speaker 2: recording this a week after we recorded this original episode.

4
00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,360
Speaker 2: With two quick notes at the top.

5
00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,400
Speaker 1: The first thing we want to do is plug the

6
00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:20,200
Speaker 1: tour that we've got coming up. You've probably already heard

7
00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,520
Speaker 1: about it, but in case you haven't, we are doing

8
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,800
Speaker 1: several live shows in early February. We will be in

9
00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:35,200
Speaker 1: San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin, and San Diego in that order.

10
00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,760
Speaker 1: The dates range from February first to February tenth. You

11
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,680
Speaker 1: can get more information all the details all the dates

12
00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,120
Speaker 1: as well as tickets if you go to link tree

13
00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,599
Speaker 1: slash Bechdel Cast and we hope to see you there.

14
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,960
Speaker 1: We have such fun shows and we're doing Barbie.

15
00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,640
Speaker 2: It's the Barbie tour we've been in in dating you.

16
00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,160
Speaker 2: But yeah, we're already sold out in Dallas and Sacramento,

17
00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,080
Speaker 2: but stay tuned there may be more shows announced and

18
00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,640
Speaker 2: get your tickets to the other shows. Yeah. The other

19
00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:05,640
Speaker 2: thing we wanted to touch on really quick. This is

20
00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,360
Speaker 2: a movie that is both about highly sensitive themes and

21
00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,800
Speaker 2: it just came out. So since we recorded this last week,

22
00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 2: there has been a fair amount of reaction and the

23
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,000
Speaker 2: reaction to the reaction, and we've had a week to

24
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,800
Speaker 2: sit with the movie and we have a few worthings

25
00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:23,360
Speaker 2: we just wanted to talk about. So if you want

26
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,920
Speaker 2: to get to future JB and future Caitlin's thoughts on that,

27
00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:29,560
Speaker 2: and I guess I don't know why I am like

28
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,720
Speaker 2: high to get that Villi Fulau has now seen and

29
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,119
Speaker 2: reacted to May December. If you're not aware who that is.

30
00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 2: This movie I think is pretty clearly based on the

31
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:44,839
Speaker 2: Mary Kay Laturno and Villi Fulou abuse saga of the nineties. Yes,

32
00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 2: and you know he has since reacted to the movie.

33
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,160
Speaker 2: There's been reaction to the reaction. We're going to talk

34
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,880
Speaker 2: about it. And I also feel like I'm losing listeners

35
00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,680
Speaker 2: at the very beginning because the filmmakers insist it's not

36
00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,000
Speaker 2: based on that. Just go to the end of the episode.

37
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,320
Speaker 2: We also talk about it content with the episode It's

38
00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,400
Speaker 2: a monster. This was a really challenging episode that we

39
00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,280
Speaker 2: had a great time recording. It's just because this movie,

40
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,399
Speaker 2: for everything we liked and disliked about it, is really challenging.

41
00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,560
Speaker 2: So for sure, buckle in, we hope you enjoy the

42
00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,799
Speaker 2: discussion and we'll see you in the future. At the

43
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,000
Speaker 2: end of the episode, yep, enjoy.

44
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,880
Speaker 3: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women

45
00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,239
Speaker 3: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands

46
00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,720
Speaker 3: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zeffi bast

47
00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,280
Speaker 3: start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

48
00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:37,840
Speaker 1: Doo doo, doo doo.

49
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,200
Speaker 2: I don't think we have enough hot dogs. And that's

50
00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,120
Speaker 2: when I knew I was going to enjoy whatever happens

51
00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,880
Speaker 2: in the movie May December, which I did not know

52
00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,400
Speaker 2: what it was about or any of the themes. Wow,

53
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:53,200
Speaker 2: I know.

54
00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,480
Speaker 1: But the hot dog representation is very prominent, especially in

55
00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,240
Speaker 1: those first five to ten minutes.

56
00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're making more hot and there are people

57
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,880
Speaker 2: we're talking about three to a head by my math. Yeah,

58
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,639
Speaker 2: unless there were some kids, I wasn't saying whatever. Welcome

59
00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,560
Speaker 2: to the Bechdel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus, And on

60
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,360
Speaker 2: this podcast, we always have enough hot dogs. Over the years,

61
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,320
Speaker 2: some have said we have too many. It comes up

62
00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,440
Speaker 2: to abundance, a surplus, if you will, order of hot dogs.

63
00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,560
Speaker 1: And I'm Caitlin Dorante and this is our show where

64
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,320
Speaker 1: we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the

65
00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,280
Speaker 1: Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate

66
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 1: a larger conversation.

67
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,560
Speaker 2: And boy, do we have a conversation have today?

68
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:39,280
Speaker 1: Do we really do? Yes? The Bechdel Test is a

69
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,600
Speaker 1: media metric originally created by Alison Bechdel along with her

70
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,520
Speaker 1: friend Liz Wallace. That's why it's often called the Bechdel

71
00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,880
Speaker 1: Wallace Test. Originally appeared in Alison Bechdel's comic Dicks to

72
00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,280
Speaker 1: Watch Out For, and the original intention behind it was

73
00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,000
Speaker 1: just like an examination of do women speak to each

74
00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,240
Speaker 1: other in media? In movies? And how fucked up can

75
00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 1: it get? This movie seeks to answer that question, it

76
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:08,280
Speaker 1: really truly does.

77
00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,360
Speaker 2: I feel like that's sort of a concerted interest of

78
00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,839
Speaker 2: Todd Haynes's work overall. He wants to see how many fun,

79
00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 2: dumb ways he could pass the Bechdel test. And I

80
00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,360
Speaker 2: think that that's a really noble pursuit.

81
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,320
Speaker 1: It is it is. We're proud of him for it.

82
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,280
Speaker 1: In any case, there are many different versions of the

83
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,760
Speaker 1: Bechdel test. The one that we use is as follows,

84
00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,680
Speaker 1: do two characters of a marginalized gender have names, do

85
00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,800
Speaker 1: they speak to each other? Is the conversation about something

86
00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,479
Speaker 1: other than a man and a little caveat that we add?

87
00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 1: Is is the conversation narratively impactful or is it just

88
00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,560
Speaker 1: kind of like throwaway dialogue that could easily be cut not.

89
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,920
Speaker 2: An example of this is we don't have enough hot talks,

90
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:56,359
Speaker 2: which I think passes the Bechdel test because just because

91
00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,239
Speaker 2: we don't hear it doesn't mean the hot dogs didn't answer.

92
00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,320
Speaker 2: They said, there is enough hot dogs. Look at us,

93
00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,240
Speaker 2: there's sixty. Did you see how many damn hot dogs?

94
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:05,920
Speaker 2: Charles Melton was brilliing there was enough.

95
00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:07,039
Speaker 1: Yes.

96
00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,120
Speaker 2: Anyway, we're talking about May December. I feel like it's

97
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,159
Speaker 2: been a while since we've talked about a movie like

98
00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,840
Speaker 2: right as it was coming out. But this movie went

99
00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,640
Speaker 2: directly to streaming, so it's allowed we can do it.

100
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,800
Speaker 1: It always stresses me out to do a movie that

101
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,000
Speaker 1: recently has just come out because I'm like, I need

102
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,760
Speaker 1: more time to mull it over. So I kind of

103
00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,160
Speaker 1: feel that way about this movie.

104
00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,200
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a ton to go through, and I

105
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:32,800
Speaker 2: think like, yeah, this is the kind of movie that,

106
00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,880
Speaker 2: like the conversation will evolve with age two, but there's

107
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,440
Speaker 2: been I think, a really interesting wide variety of discussion,

108
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,680
Speaker 2: including the classic like Golden Globes, Like why is this

109
00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:44,800
Speaker 2: being called a comedy?

110
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:45,719
Speaker 1: Right?

111
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 2: I just am so exhausted with that conversation in general,

112
00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,640
Speaker 2: I don't want to hear it. We have an amazing

113
00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,120
Speaker 2: guest joining us today who bravely requested to cover this movie.

114
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,400
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, she is a comedian. She'll be releasing an

115
00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,840
Speaker 1: hour special later this year, so be on the lookout

116
00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:05,080
Speaker 1: for that. She's also in the Shutter movie Destroy All Neighbors,

117
00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,480
Speaker 1: which I think at the time of this episode's release

118
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,760
Speaker 1: will be available on Shutter.

119
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,799
Speaker 2: Credible title It's Kiran Deal.

120
00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,560
Speaker 4: Welcome, Come, Hello, you guys. This is so exciting.

121
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,120
Speaker 1: The excitement is all ours.

122
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,440
Speaker 4: I love the way you're like. She bravely suggested this

123
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,240
Speaker 4: movie aka she doesn't watch films anymore and happened to

124
00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,040
Speaker 4: catch this on Netflix because she was like, Oh, I

125
00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,880
Speaker 4: know Natalie Portman, Let's see what this thing is about.

126
00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,120
Speaker 4: And then I thought it was the director of Tar,

127
00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:35,400
Speaker 4: which I believe. I guess Caitlin, I thought it.

128
00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,800
Speaker 2: Was Todd to Todd's we were talking about, Yeah, the

129
00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,960
Speaker 2: various interests of the todd O tour community. In the

130
00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,720
Speaker 2: last two years or in the last ten years, men

131
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 2: named todd seemed to be obsessed with making movies where

132
00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,880
Speaker 2: the thesis seems to be, you know, women can be

133
00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 2: sex criminals too, which is true, Which is true, and

134
00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,840
Speaker 2: the Todds feel that they are the one to say it.

135
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,560
Speaker 2: I also think that these Todds also have a vested

136
00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,919
Speaker 2: interest in casting Kate Blanchett as a complicated lesbian. Yes,

137
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 2: because we have that in Carol and we have that

138
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:17,520
Speaker 2: interre are different wow kinds of Kate Blanchett's on display,

139
00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,480
Speaker 2: but Todds nonetheless. Anyway, what's your history with this movie, Caitlyn.

140
00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,520
Speaker 1: I had just seen it for the first time four

141
00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,280
Speaker 1: or so days ago. I considered not watching it a

142
00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:34,920
Speaker 1: second time because it is a decidedly uncomfortable movie, but

143
00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,120
Speaker 1: I was like, I gotta do my job. I need

144
00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,600
Speaker 1: to absorb it more fully. So yeah, I've just seen

145
00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,119
Speaker 1: it twice now in the past few days, and I'm

146
00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,080
Speaker 1: excited to talk about it, or I guess, like I know,

147
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,480
Speaker 1: we kept being like is excited the right word here?

148
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,480
Speaker 1: But I found it intriguing certainly, And do I ever

149
00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,520
Speaker 1: want to watch it again? After this, I would say

150
00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:05,600
Speaker 1: not no, but I think it will elicit an interesting discussion, Jamie,

151
00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:06,120
Speaker 1: what about you?

152
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,880
Speaker 2: This is going to sound excessive. It is completely by

153
00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,440
Speaker 2: coincidence that I have not seen so many award season

154
00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,960
Speaker 2: movies this year, but I've seen May December three times style.

155
00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,520
Speaker 2: I watched it the weekend that it came out, because

156
00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,680
Speaker 2: once I did find out what it was about. This

157
00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,360
Speaker 2: is weirdly it sounds weird to say that this is

158
00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,720
Speaker 2: in my wheelhouse, but because I did the Lolita podcast

159
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,840
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, I've seen and analyzed quite

160
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,160
Speaker 2: a few movies that have predatory and abusive dynamics. We've

161
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,320
Speaker 2: talked about it, I think briefly on the show I

162
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,280
Speaker 2: Can't for the Life and we remember in what episode

163
00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,079
Speaker 2: this would have come up, but how infrequently up until

164
00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:49,480
Speaker 2: quite recently, like representing an abusive dynamic and child sex

165
00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 2: abuse that takes place between an adult woman and a

166
00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:57,320
Speaker 2: young man is like almost never shown or discussed up

167
00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,880
Speaker 2: until pretty recently. So once I found out what this

168
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 2: movie was about, and also the tabloid case that it

169
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,800
Speaker 2: was loosely based on, which I was brag too young

170
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,800
Speaker 2: to remember, so I had to kind of go back

171
00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,080
Speaker 2: and do some research on how heavily based it was.

172
00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,320
Speaker 2: But so I was really interested to see this movie.

173
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,120
Speaker 2: I feel like it does like with a movie where

174
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 2: this is the subject matter, which is I mean, like

175
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,800
Speaker 2: we'll place the trigger warning in this entire episode for

176
00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,360
Speaker 2: child sex abuse, for emotional abuse, for kind of every

177
00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,800
Speaker 2: sort of toxic relationship dynamic that you could imagine, and

178
00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:38,200
Speaker 2: also women being assholes, which is my favorite one. But yeah,

179
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,040
Speaker 2: so I was really interested to see it. I think

180
00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,079
Speaker 2: it's really like well written and well done and well acted.

181
00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,599
Speaker 2: I have some thoughts on it. I'm really excited to

182
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,840
Speaker 2: talk about it with y'all. And then I also saw,

183
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,800
Speaker 2: before I prepared for this episode, I went to a

184
00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:58,320
Speaker 2: SAG screening where Julianne Moore and Charles Melton and Todd

185
00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,920
Speaker 2: Haynes spoke after the movie, and I thought that the

186
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,240
Speaker 2: way that they discussed what to me felt like a

187
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,120
Speaker 2: very clear theme in the movie to be very interesting.

188
00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,360
Speaker 2: So I'm excited to talk about that as well. Yeah,

189
00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,320
Speaker 2: but in general, I think it's at least for how

190
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 2: generally poorly this subject matter is handled in media, that

191
00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:25,839
Speaker 2: this feels like a stronger attempt. And also it is

192
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,760
Speaker 2: about other things to it, and I think it's cool

193
00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,680
Speaker 2: how the Natalie Portman character is just sort of this

194
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:37,280
Speaker 2: embodiment of how cynically media tends to treat abused people.

195
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,080
Speaker 1: True, Kieren, how about you? What's your relationship with this movie?

196
00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,400
Speaker 4: So? I watched the film and I remember thinking huh, okay.

197
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,120
Speaker 4: So I didn't really know what it was about, and

198
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,720
Speaker 4: I was curious, and I watched the whole movie and

199
00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,520
Speaker 4: then I was like, huh interesting. Interesting. Then I went

200
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:06,760
Speaker 4: into a kind of wormhole of looking up the source

201
00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:12,520
Speaker 4: material about the movie, and like an interview that is

202
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:18,679
Speaker 4: by Ausie Press on the film that's about twenty minutes long,

203
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 4: and it was one of those movies for me which

204
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,440
Speaker 4: I think is interesting. I was like, huh interesting, Okay, cool.

205
00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:26,720
Speaker 4: And then it was like as the evening went on,

206
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,080
Speaker 4: or as I went out, and then like I was like,

207
00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,000
Speaker 4: why don't I feel good? Why is there like a

208
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,600
Speaker 4: niggling feeling that like I was weirdly cheated or something

209
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,040
Speaker 4: like what's bothering me? Is what I was the question

210
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,840
Speaker 4: I particularly felt what's bothering me? And it took me

211
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,440
Speaker 4: a while to unravel that. Right around that time is

212
00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 4: when I got Jamie's email saying what movie would you

213
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:56,079
Speaker 4: like to choose? And that's my history with this film.

214
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited to talk about that feeling that you

215
00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,840
Speaker 1: were feeling in a bit. I mean, I am old

216
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,439
Speaker 1: enough to remember the Mary Kay Laturno y, like I

217
00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,760
Speaker 1: remember what the cases. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the

218
00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:16,280
Speaker 1: movie is loosely based on Mary Kay Laturno, who was

219
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:22,199
Speaker 1: arrested in the late nineties on two counts of child

220
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:28,600
Speaker 1: rape because she sexually abused a twelve year old boy

221
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,920
Speaker 1: named and I might get this pronunciation wrong, really Fullau

222
00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,040
Speaker 1: And yeah, I remember when this was in the tabloids

223
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,240
Speaker 1: and just like the regular news, like this story was

224
00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,720
Speaker 1: covered very heavily in ninety seven when it happened.

225
00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,760
Speaker 2: What was your memory of like how it was covered.

226
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,800
Speaker 1: I was eleven at the time, so I don't think

227
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:59,000
Speaker 1: I had quite like a nuanced enough interpretation. I mean,

228
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,320
Speaker 1: maybe this is just like me retroactively having like my

229
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,480
Speaker 1: adult brain and being like, yeah, I remember it being

230
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,360
Speaker 1: super sensationalized, but I don't know if that's actually true.

231
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:08,360
Speaker 2: I think so.

232
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just remember it was covered very heavily, and

233
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,640
Speaker 1: I do remember a lot of people's responses to it

234
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,440
Speaker 1: just like people my own age. There were boys that

235
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,839
Speaker 1: I went to school with who would have been around

236
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,640
Speaker 1: the same age as the survivor of this abuse, who

237
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,240
Speaker 1: were like, oh, I wish you know X, Y and

238
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,640
Speaker 1: Z teacher would do this to me, and like just

239
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,800
Speaker 1: that was a lot of the response that I was

240
00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,280
Speaker 1: hearing from, like my peers. It was a bizarre time.

241
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,359
Speaker 4: Can I say One thing I do find really fascinating

242
00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,559
Speaker 4: is how when you are a kid, especially when you're

243
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,719
Speaker 4: kind of like going into those teenage years, how much

244
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,280
Speaker 4: of a grown up you feel like, and how certain

245
00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,160
Speaker 4: that adulthood can feel to you, even to the point

246
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,079
Speaker 4: where like I've had like a nephew, Like and I

247
00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,000
Speaker 4: remember like taking my nephew around and I was like,

248
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,840
Speaker 4: we're gonna stay until ten and he's like, no, I'm

249
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,839
Speaker 4: putting my foot down and I have to like kind

250
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,520
Speaker 4: of stop and be like, no, wait, I'm the grown up.

251
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 4: I'm the grown up. No, no, no, I pick when we

252
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,240
Speaker 4: go to sleep, you know what I mean, Like, you're

253
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:10,959
Speaker 4: still a kid.

254
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:11,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

255
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,800
Speaker 4: And I think about that with something like the movie Kids,

256
00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,920
Speaker 4: you know, like watching it when I was in college

257
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,560
Speaker 4: or something and seeing it and kind of being like yeah,

258
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,520
Speaker 4: this is how kids are versus then seeing it as

259
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,640
Speaker 4: a grown up and then being like oh no, oh no,

260
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,320
Speaker 4: oh no, oh no, how terrible. Oh no, that's the

261
00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,280
Speaker 4: differential I hear when you're talking about those boys, which

262
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:37,200
Speaker 4: is just a really interesting developmental difference, you know.

263
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:38,520
Speaker 1: For sure.

264
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,080
Speaker 2: One of the things I appreciate about this movie is

265
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 2: like it attempts to comment on like how media portrayed

266
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,880
Speaker 2: cases like this through the Natalie Portman character, which we'll

267
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 2: like get into, but when she's like being tasked with

268
00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:01,320
Speaker 2: helping to cast like an underage actor and she's giving

269
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,200
Speaker 2: notes that they're like, quote unquote not sexy enough, and

270
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,040
Speaker 2: then when you see the product at the end of

271
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,160
Speaker 2: the movie, the character has clearly been aged up, which

272
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,920
Speaker 2: almost always happens in movies of this nature, which in

273
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:20,400
Speaker 2: some ways it's I think a positive thing, certainly for

274
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 2: the actor, Like you don't want that to be happening

275
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,160
Speaker 2: to a twelve year old actor. Again, interesting that Natalie

276
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,440
Speaker 2: Portman is in this because she's in Leon the professional,

277
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 2: which is very much that kind of role. And Yeah,

278
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,760
Speaker 2: there's so many weird layers to this movie. But then

279
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,880
Speaker 2: it also as a viewer conditions you to think that

280
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,040
Speaker 2: a thirteen year old isn't a thirteen year old, a

281
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,080
Speaker 2: thirteen year old as a sixteen year old, and a

282
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 2: sixteen year old as a twenty two year old. And

283
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,000
Speaker 2: it's like the way that it's also weird that we

284
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,160
Speaker 2: have Charles Melton because that's what Riverdale is. You know,

285
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,160
Speaker 2: he's like thirty years old playing a seventeen year old. Sure,

286
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,680
Speaker 2: I don't know, like, yeah, this movie touched I guess

287
00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:57,760
Speaker 2: I have thoughts on it. But this movie did end

288
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,600
Speaker 2: up touching on way more than I thought it was

289
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,880
Speaker 2: going to on, like the way that stories about child

290
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,280
Speaker 2: sex abuse are covered and then subsequently like portrayed, because

291
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,760
Speaker 2: Natalie Portman's character really thinks she's doing something when in.

292
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,560
Speaker 1: Fact, she is part of the problem, the most evil

293
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:17,440
Speaker 1: person alive.

294
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,120
Speaker 2: I can't say. The one thing I like about her

295
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,200
Speaker 2: character is that she openly hates her fiance because it

296
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,040
Speaker 2: seems like he sucks. Yeah, and so that's the one

297
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,000
Speaker 2: that's the one place where I'll be like, all right,

298
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 2: I see it.

299
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,800
Speaker 1: Well, let's get into it with the recap, but before that,

300
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back,

301
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,520
Speaker 1: and we're back here. We are Okay, so here is

302
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,440
Speaker 1: the recap, and we'll place another content warning here for

303
00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,960
Speaker 1: child sex abuse, emotional abuse, rooming, things of that nature.

304
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 4: I just do want to apologize for covering this film

305
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,600
Speaker 4: one more time. Takes a lot, Karen, So sorry, so sorry.

306
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,280
Speaker 1: I mean these things must be discussed.

307
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,840
Speaker 2: So, no, it's true, and it's not the first. Virtually,

308
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,600
Speaker 2: it's not the first. I was it might be the first.

309
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,800
Speaker 2: I were talking about. Well, it doesn't matter. We've talked

310
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,720
Speaker 2: about the show before many times.

311
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:21,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

312
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,919
Speaker 2: Also, Kieren, feel free to jump in that. It's a

313
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,040
Speaker 2: very open summary discussion.

314
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,440
Speaker 1: Okay. So we are in Savannah, Georgia, and we meet

315
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 1: Gracie played by Julianne Moore. She's prepping for a barbecue

316
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:41,239
Speaker 1: with her husband, Joe played by Charles Melton, who is

317
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,720
Speaker 1: noticeably much younger than Gracie. There's talk of a movie

318
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,160
Speaker 1: star named Elizabeth Barry who is going to be there

319
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,120
Speaker 1: doing research for a role, and she'll be shadowing Gracie

320
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,240
Speaker 1: because Elizabeth is playing Gracie in an upcoming movie.

321
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,800
Speaker 2: She keeps calling it art house. It is revealed at

322
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,359
Speaker 2: the end that it appears to be lifetime, right, She's like,

323
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,639
Speaker 2: it's an art House movie. I was like, oh no,

324
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,800
Speaker 2: I don't know. It seems like you're in Burbank, got

325
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:11,440
Speaker 2: their ass.

326
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,959
Speaker 4: Wow, a lot of Burbank shade. Wasn't expecting Burbank shade.

327
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,200
Speaker 1: I mean dunking on the valley.

328
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 2: Wow, just just throw a grenade to start the discussion.

329
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,200
Speaker 4: Sure, Burbank hasn't had enough difficulties.

330
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,240
Speaker 2: Hasn't Burbank been through enough? Yeah?

331
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,440
Speaker 4: Exactly. Wow, I wasn't expecting that from this.

332
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,240
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry I didn't sleep last day. All due

333
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,440
Speaker 2: respect to Burbank. I love Burbank.

334
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,439
Speaker 1: I mean they have three AMC's all within a like

335
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,480
Speaker 1: five hundred foot radius of each other.

336
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, some of your best friends live in Burbank, y'all.

337
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 4: We've heard it all before.

338
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'll never live it down.

339
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,600
Speaker 1: Okay. Anyway, So Elizabeth Barry we meet her on screen.

340
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 1: She's played by Natalie Portman. She shows up to Gracie's

341
00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 1: house and gets acquainted with everyone, including Gracie and Joe's

342
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:07,760
Speaker 1: teenage kids, twins named Charlie and Mary. Gracie seems apprehensive

343
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 1: about this situation where this movie is being made about her.

344
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,120
Speaker 1: There's mention of, you know, like getting the story right.

345
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 1: And making sure Gracie is seen and understood. There's a

346
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 1: friend of Gracy's who tells Elizabeth, like, be kind in

347
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,200
Speaker 1: your portrayal of Gracy. Also, we see that someone has

348
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,200
Speaker 1: sent Gracey a box of like literal shit in the mail.

349
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:36,120
Speaker 1: So something's going on. We don't quite know what exactly yet, and.

350
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,360
Speaker 2: It already like we covered sense a Boulevard yesterday, and

351
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,760
Speaker 2: it's just like already just a real week of characters

352
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,879
Speaker 2: that are women in their fifties who have an entire

353
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 2: scary bubble to protect them from reality and surrounding them

354
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:52,880
Speaker 2: from moment one.

355
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:58,200
Speaker 1: Yes, indeed. So then Elizabeth starts studying Gracy and going

356
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,720
Speaker 1: through tabloids from the ar early nineties, and we get

357
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 1: a glimpse of who Gracie is and what her story is.

358
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 1: She had spent time in prison, she gave birth while

359
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,200
Speaker 1: she was in prison, and there are pictures of her

360
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 1: with a very young Joe We're talking like middle school age,

361
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 1: so things are starting to come into focus. Elizabeth spends

362
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,120
Speaker 1: more time with Gracy, asks her and Joe a bunch

363
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 1: of questions. We learn that Gracie's eldest son from a

364
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 1: previous marriage. His name's Georgie is the same age as Joe.

365
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 1: We also learn that Gracy and Joe met when he

366
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,679
Speaker 1: came into a pet store where she worked. He was

367
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 1: looking for a job, so we're getting more details. And

368
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,919
Speaker 1: then Elizabeth meets with Gracie's ex husband, Tom and he

369
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 1: confirms the full story, which is that Gracie, in the

370
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,640
Speaker 1: early nineties, when she was thirty six years old, started

371
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: an affair aka committed child sexual abuse with Joe when

372
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: he was thirteen years old. Then Elizabeth continues her research,

373
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,159
Speaker 1: interviewing people around town, such as the owner of the

374
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:14,399
Speaker 1: pet store where Gracie was caught sexually abusing Joe. She

375
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 1: talks to Gracie's defense attorney, as well as Gracie's older son, Georgie,

376
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 1: who tells Elizabeth that this ordeal ruined his life. There's

377
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 1: also ongoing tension between Gracey and Elizabeth because Gracey still

378
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 1: just seems uncomfortable about the idea that this movie is

379
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 1: being made. She thinks that like Elizabeth is just kind

380
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,360
Speaker 1: of like meddling and always around too much, which is true,

381
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 1: which is true, she is yes, And then there's a

382
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 1: different kind of tension between Elizabeth and Joe. She points

383
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: out that they're the same age more or less, and

384
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 1: it also feels like Elizabeth is trying to flirt with

385
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 1: Joe when she goes to visit him at work. Joe

386
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 1: tells Elizabeth, people act like I'm some kind of victim.

387
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: But Gracie and I have been together for twenty four years.

388
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 1: Why would I stay if I wasn't happy? And it's

389
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: not clear at this point how Elizabeth feels about this

390
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 1: whole situation. Then things start to really fall apart. We

391
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 1: see Gracie having a meltdown, although the thing that she's

392
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 1: crying about is cake, because she's like a professional baker.

393
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 2: Right, But even that is like not exactly true, because

394
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 2: he's like another sunset full of our overlap where it's

395
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,880
Speaker 2: like all of Normandesmond's fan mail is written by her butler,

396
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 2: all of Gracie's cakes are purchased by her neighbors just

397
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 2: to like quote unquote keep her busy, right, which, yes,

398
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 2: very bleak.

399
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 4: Why did they live in such a nice house?

400
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: I don't know.

401
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 2: I asked that so many times, and my boyfriend kept

402
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 2: making excuse. He's like, maybe she sold her life, right

403
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: that maybe that's why. I was like, maybe, but that's

404
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: the only thing because it doesn't it doesn't make it

405
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 2: sound like either of them wrote a book. He works

406
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 2: as an X ray tech which is a good job,

407
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 2: but not like mansion good job. Like I don't understand.

408
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 4: It's a weird thing where it's like a lot of

409
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 4: the issues I have with this Like I love that

410
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,479
Speaker 4: it's two women to strong female leads, whatever, but like

411
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 4: a lot of my issues with this movie are actually

412
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 4: around class and the treatment of the Charles Melton character.

413
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 4: The lack of development of that little boy for sure,

414
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 4: the fact that he is a prop in this movie,

415
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 4: the fact that none of the relationship is explored, the

416
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 4: fact that you know, you're saying it's an interesting commentary

417
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 4: Jamie on like the press and the predatory nature of

418
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 4: the media. But Julian Moore is letting these people into

419
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 4: her home is the other piece of it. So there's

420
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 4: there's definitely like a duality to that. Also, I just

421
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 4: think back to film school or any time that like,

422
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 4: not that I went to film school, but what I've

423
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 4: heard that people who went to film school have said

424
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 4: is like, isn't there always like something about being first

425
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 4: person and verite, which is kind of like, you know,

426
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 4: understanding this like hology, the depth of the psychology of

427
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 4: like verite in terms of putting somebody in the firestorm

428
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 4: of the most interesting action, and the immense privilege that

429
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 4: comes with like having this very slow burn, Like you

430
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:19,479
Speaker 4: took the least interesting approach on this insane topic, Like

431
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 4: you did it through the point of view of a

432
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 4: lifetime movie actress walking into the home of like the

433
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 4: twenty four year relationship between a teacher and a child,

434
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 4: and we follow Natalie fucking Portman.

435
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 2: What are we doing.

436
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 4: We're talking about hot dogs and cake. I'm so sorry.

437
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: I know I'm excited to discuss this further when we

438
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: like get into the full discression.

439
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 4: Sorry, and I interrupted your very thorough breakdown. I mean,

440
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 4: you don't even have to watch this film.

441
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,719
Speaker 1: I love it, but like these are the things that

442
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: we do want to talk about, so we'll get to it.

443
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: But anyway, Gracie's having a breakdown because someone stopped ordering

444
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 1: her cakes, and I'm like, sh okay. Anyway, Then there's

445
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: a scene where Joe also breaks down and cries because

446
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: he's high on drugs, and we sense that he's like

447
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: starting to maybe kind of interrogate things from his past.

448
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 4: And Caitlin, he's never done drugs before. Right, he does

449
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 4: drugs on his roof with his teenage son, and his

450
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 4: teenage son gives him the drug, right, and he's never

451
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 4: done them before, indicating some level of like, you know.

452
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 1: Rested development. Perhaps.

453
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with you, Karen that

454
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 2: Joe is an underdeveloped character who has been sidelined in

455
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 2: these narratives his whole life and is still being sidelined

456
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: twenty four years later. Like, it's still very clear that

457
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 2: Gracie feels like she is the romantic protagonist of this story,

458
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 2: and it's like he's sidelined in every single way, including

459
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 2: in this movie. So I feel like I had to

460
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: like cling to little details like and he's never got

461
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 2: to smoke weed because of the way his life has gone.

462
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: And also just like how tremendously controlling she is. Like

463
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: one of the first details that I picked up on

464
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: is like when he enters the scene for the first time,

465
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: she's like, that's two beers today, and it's like, oh

466
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 2: my god.

467
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: Let the man live away from you.

468
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can get the creditor.

469
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: Let him go anyways, Yes, Then we get a scene

470
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: with a graduation dinner because their twin kids are about

471
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: to graduate from high school. And afterwards, Elizabeth talks to Georgie,

472
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: Gracie's adult son, who tells Elizabeth that Gracie's older brothers

473
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: sexually abused her starting when she was twelve years old,

474
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: but that Gracie refuses to talk about it, and she

475
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 1: still has a close relationship with these brothers, it seems.

476
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: Then Joe gives Elizabeth a ride home and they kiss

477
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: and they have sex, and she keeps telling him that

478
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: he's young and he could leave Gracie and start over,

479
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: and he's like, no, I would destroy her and this

480
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 1: is my life we're talking about, and he gets upset

481
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 1: and storms out, and then he goes home and has

482
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: a conversation with Gracie where he's like, hey, like what

483
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: if I was too young when we got together?

484
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 2: And she shuts it down.

485
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: The emotional abuseome manipulation really amps up here, where she's like,

486
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 1: you're the one who seduced me and he's like, I

487
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: was thirteen, and she refuses to listen to him or

488
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: allow him to express his feelings and she storms off.

489
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 2: And that whole scene is okay, I forget if we've

490
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: talked about this already, but like that whole scene is

491
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 2: pretty directly pulled from an actual interview that Mary Kayla

492
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 2: Turno did on television, Like it's horrific hearing it in

493
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: a private setting, but then when you go and watch

494
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 2: the clip, you're like, it's just like so horrible and

495
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: uncomfortable to watch.

496
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 4: It's the who's the boss line, like like she had

497
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 4: pieces so many times in the Yeah, who's in charge?

498
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 4: Or who is the boss? Who's the boss? I thought

499
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 4: that was the most interesting scene in the film. To me,

500
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 4: that felt like the starting point of a film. You know,

501
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 4: that felt like like from there, from that jumping off point.

502
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: Now let's explore Joe.

503
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's figure out who Joe is and let's figure

504
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 4: out what this is. And the fact that that was

505
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 4: the culmination of this movie. It took a while to

506
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 4: settle in because I do think the directing is good.

507
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 4: I think all of I think, especially Natalie and Juliane

508
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 4: are both like incredible actors. Like, so kudos to like

509
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 4: the makeup scene, which I know you didn't mention, Caitlin,

510
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 4: where the two of them are putting on the makeup

511
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 4: is like I thought that was very compelling, Like when

512
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 4: Natalie does the monologue. It's very compelling, Like just the

513
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 4: performances are really marvelous, so I can understand why they

514
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 4: were attracted to the performances. But from a storytelling point

515
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 4: of view, I was just like bruh, Like.

516
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: Way to focus on the least compelling and least important.

517
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: I would say part of this narrative, bah rah oh

518
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:03,719
Speaker 1: ruh was my answer. Okay, so Gracie kind of is

519
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: manipulating him, and she shuts this conversation down. Then we

520
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: cut to Elizabeth rehearsing a monologue where she's impersonating Gracie.

521
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,239
Speaker 1: You know, she's like preparing for this performance she's going

522
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: to give in the movie. The words that she's rehearsing

523
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: are presumably coming from a letter that Gracie had given

524
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: to Joe at the start of their relationship. Joe gave

525
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: this letter to Elizabeth, and now she's like performing this

526
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: as a monologue, and in the letter, Gracie acknowledges that

527
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: she crossed a line that what she's doing is illegal

528
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: and unethical, So she knew at the time what she

529
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: was doing.

530
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,959
Speaker 2: She lies about the whole movie that she like, and

531
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: that was like an element of the Barry Kayla turta

532
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,239
Speaker 2: story too. She was like, I was not aware that

533
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: sexually a music a child was illegal.

534
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, fuck you. You're like, girl, you're

535
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 4: a teacher.

536
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: You're a teacher, You're a thirty six year old teacher.

537
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 2: You've fucking freak.

538
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: Anyways, yes, okay. So then it's the day of the

539
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: twins graduation and Gracie approaches Elizabeth afterward and she's like,

540
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: you know that thing that my son Georgie told you

541
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: about my brothers, that was a lie. Georgie is really insecure,

542
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: but not me. I'm a very secure person. Parentheses put

543
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: that in the movie bone Chilling, and we're like, ah.

544
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: And then we cut to the set of the movie,

545
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: the biopic that Elizabeth is shooting about this ordeal, and

546
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: it's fucking creepy and gross the end.

547
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Katelin, can I just add that in that

548
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 4: last scene where it was like Julian Moore approaches Natalie Portman,

549
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 4: which she's like, my son told you that that and

550
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 4: none of that was true. Natalie was like, oh, wait,

551
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 4: what you know? Wait he told you that? And then

552
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 4: she goes, of course I speak to him every day,

553
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 4: and there's kind of like this in the same way

554
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 4: that like what's her relationship with it? Like if you're

555
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 4: looking for the breadcrumbs of it, it's like, what is

556
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 4: that relationship with that son?

557
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: Then no idea, Like that scene is consistently baffling to me,

558
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: where I'm like, there's no reason to believe Gracie. She's

559
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 2: complaintly delusional, but also because of what she put her

560
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: family through, her son is not a reliable narrator either.

561
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 2: That like horrible cringey scene where he's like, I will

562
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: give you information for your.

563
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 4: Be that yeah, if you let me be the music supervisor.

564
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 2: Yeah right, He's like, I know good songs, and you're like,

565
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: oh my god, I hate this whole it's just a catastrophe.

566
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 4: And then the other one was when Julian Moore like

567
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 4: leaves the bathroom because the scene where it's the graduation

568
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 4: dinner kind of goes terribly wrong, and the children who

569
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 4: have left the house are kind of like out of

570
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 4: her grasp or spell and maybe seem to realize that

571
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 4: their lives have been particularly messed up, and so there's

572
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 4: a level of rebellion. She gave them a scale for

573
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 4: their graduation gifts or whatever, and she wanted a beautiful time,

574
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 4: and then Natalie happens to be in the bathroom at

575
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 4: the same time. Of one line I do remember thinking

576
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 4: was like quite interesting, was like the I guess I've

577
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 4: always been naive, you know, and that's helped me or

578
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 4: something like Julian Moore says something to that, like I've

579
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 4: always been naive.

580
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this character's obsession with control, including controlling

581
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: how well, wait, should we take a break.

582
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a quick break and then we'll come

583
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: back and really dive into this discussion. So we'll be

584
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: right back and we're back. So, yes, we've already kind

585
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: of started this discussion and let's keep going.

586
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Karen, I want to go back to what you

587
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: were saying about how I mean, I think Joe is

588
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 2: the character to really art with here because like, I

589
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: completely agree that we we're kept at arm's length from

590
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: him the entire story, and you start to see towards

591
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: the end there are a few really beautifully done scenes

592
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: by Charles Melton. In the scene where he's finally confronting

593
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 2: his abuser and stating what's happened. I think the scene

594
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: with his son is really good too, and like there's

595
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 2: a few really good scenes with him late in the movie,

596
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: but for the most part, we're kind of like kept

597
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: it arms length through him, and I wasn't able to like,

598
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't hate the framing device for

599
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: this movie, but I also think that there were ways

600
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: that were like obvious to more meaningfully include Joe even

601
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: within that framing device. But then I wonder, I'm like,

602
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: is it possible when it's like, to me, this movie

603
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: should be more about Joe, but then it seems to

604
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: want to be about a struggle for a narrative control

605
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 2: between Gracie, who's pretty obsessive about getting people to think

606
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: a very certain thing about her that isn't true, and

607
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 2: she knows that, like, she's not a naive person at all,

608
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 2: she's a control freak that wants people to think she's naive.

609
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 2: But that comes at the expense of focusing on who's

610
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 2: been abused, And I feel like that is like consistently

611
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 2: an issue, no matter how well other portions of it

612
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 2: are done. That seems to be like a consistent issue

613
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 2: in movies about abuse and also just dealing with abuse

614
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 2: on a longer timeline, because that's so like you never

615
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: see that someone coming to terms with abuse, you know,

616
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: over twenty years later, which is like a common experience,

617
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 2: and I feel like, yeah, we were kind of cheated

618
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: by not getting to go with Joe on that journey. More.

619
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 4: Did you see that other movie by that filmmaker that

620
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 4: was on a I think it was nominated for an

621
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 4: Emmy and it was about her abuse experience and kind

622
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 4: of realizing that this relationship that she had when she

623
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 4: was like thirteen years old was actually an abusive one.

624
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: Was it?

625
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: Did this come out a couple of years ago? Yes, Okay,

626
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,479
Speaker 2: I did. I can't remember what it was called. Oh god,

627
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 2: I don't. I hate these search terms, but yes, sorry,

628
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 2: I continue.

629
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 4: I can't remember the name of that film, but I

630
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 4: remember thinking the psychology of that film was so illuminating,

631
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 4: And even the way we are discussing this film now

632
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 4: feels like it has more depth and substance than what

633
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 4: was put on the page in the movie I watched,

634
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 4: And it's like the audacity to take this topic if

635
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 4: you don't have the kind of grit to examine the

636
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 4: psychology of like who these people are, why they are

637
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 4: the way they are. When the culminating scene is the

638
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 4: last scene in an actual interview, like when that should

639
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 4: have been kind of a jumping off point. The whole

640
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 4: thing felt for me, the kind of you know, the

641
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 4: third person, like really abstract eye of the framing device

642
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 4: on top of it to remove you even further from

643
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 4: that narrative just felt like like again, I watched this

644
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 4: movie and I was like, oh, that's well directed, that's like,

645
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 4: these actors are great. And then there was a niggling

646
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 4: feeling and I was like, why don't I what is

647
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 4: it that's bothering me? I always felt like something was

648
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 4: going to happen, and like nothing happened, and it's like

649
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 4: all in hot dogs and cakes, and like the entire

650
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 4: movie is existing in these like these scraps that you

651
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 4: were kind of clawing for, and it never felt like

652
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 4: it ever came to a head or illuminated anything, or

653
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 4: came together. And so in that way, it becomes the

654
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 4: exact voyeuristic exercise that it's trying to comment on, you know,

655
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 4: because it's offered nothing of actual value into the human psychology.

656
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 4: This is the last thing I'm going to say, and

657
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 4: this is a thing that has bothered me a lot,

658
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 4: and I don't think a lot of people talk about

659
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 4: it in entertainment. It's like when you watch the real

660
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 4: interview of the guy, he is like a dark skinned kid,

661
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 4: you know, and the actor that they cast is a

662
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 4: biracial actor. You know, he's a pretty like white passing face.

663
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: You know.

664
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 4: It's like why is that okay? So much of the time,

665
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 4: like why are we willing to do that with these

666
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 4: actors who should be Like, that's a real person. I

667
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 4: remember seeing that in the Facebook movie and Social Network,

668
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 4: like there's an Indian guy named Vivia, real Indian guy.

669
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 4: Anthony Minnguela ends up playing him again very like light

670
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 4: skinned person lights.

671
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: He's not damn if he's not.

672
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: He's not Indian.

673
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 4: He's like I mean, and this is like a brown

674
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 4: dark brown skin. This is a real person, you know,

675
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 4: and we're we're so specific when it comes to like, oh, well,

676
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 4: who's a real cab driver or who's a real like

677
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 4: do you know what I mean? Like all then it's

678
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 4: all about authenticity. But what do your emergency rooms look like?

679
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 4: You know, like what do your doctors look like? And

680
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 4: then what do your doctors on television look like? And

681
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 4: a lot of that to me, I can I feel

682
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 4: myself getting angry, and I don't want to be that person.

683
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 4: I'm reading tichn Han right now to try to deal

684
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,280
Speaker 4: with the seeds of my own anger. But quite frankly,

685
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 4: I do still blame the world.

686
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: That's the truth it is at though, like you have

687
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: every right to be angry about that.

688
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 4: But then it's really like what is the eye of

689
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 4: the person or the institution or the system that is

690
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 4: making the film and what they deem as like I'll pass,

691
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 4: that's fine, that doesn't matter, and what is seen as important?

692
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 4: And I say that specifically because this is a real person,

693
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 4: you know, this is a real person. And you see

694
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 4: the casting controversies over like the Little Mermaid being black,

695
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 4: you know, or fictional characters, like it's just wild to

696
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 4: me that in these cases where you have a real

697
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 4: human being, there was no maybe there was an effort made,

698
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 4: I don't know. And then the irony is that the

699
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 4: screenwriter is a casting director, you know, so cal like

700
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 4: girl I found it.

701
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of like a two prog thing. First

702
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 2: of all, this movie is completely disinterested in talking about

703
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 2: any race or class dynamics in a way that is

704
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 2: very frustrating because they're right there and it's like, I

705
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 2: still I do think that this movie is unique and

706
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: that there are elements of it that definitely like I

707
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: haven't seen before that I thought were positive, But it

708
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: is like there's so much that's kind of left on

709
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 2: the table and leaves you feeling frustrated for days afterwards,

710
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 2: where it's the only clue you sort of get within

711
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 2: this relationship that Gracie is very disinterested in dismissive of

712
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 2: Joe's race, is that she gets it wrong. The one

713
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 2: time that it comes up, she says, oh, you're the

714
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 2: only Korean family in the neighborhood. He's like, well half Korean,

715
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: and she's like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then keeps going.

716
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 2: So it's like this is allegedly someone that she loves

717
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 2: and can't even you know, isn't even interested in enough

718
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: to get that correct. But outside of that, it goes

719
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 2: essentially completely undiscussed and unexplored, And I feel like on

720
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: the writer's part, I feel bad, Like she was a

721
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 2: first time screenwriter. She came out of casting like great.

722
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 4: Flowers to it all happening, and like it's absolutely an

723
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 4: impossible business and we were happy for you.

724
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 2: And the fact that like, you know, women don't get

725
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 2: to right movies enough. Obviously you could tell a woman

726
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 2: wrote this movie. All that said, I think that there's

727
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 2: like just it rubs me in such a weird way

728
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 2: that this is so obviously the Mary kay Laturno story.

729
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: But in every single interview I've seen that is like

730
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: either like walked back by every single person who's asked

731
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 2: anything about it. And I feel like Kieran, like speaking

732
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 2: to your point. One of the things that you can

733
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: get away with by taking a step away from the

734
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 2: story it's obviously based on, to the point where there

735
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 2: is an entire scene that is ripped from an interview

736
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: related to this case, is that you could quote unquote

737
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 2: get away with changing the race of a character and

738
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 2: casting a lighter skinned actor because you're like, well, it's

739
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 2: not that story, it's a different story, when that's absolutely

740
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 2: not true. And then also watching that interview, you can

741
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 2: see that Villi Fulau is sitting next to Mary Kayla

742
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,479
Speaker 2: Turno incredulous that whole time, where with Joe, it's more

743
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: like in the context of the scene of where we're

744
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 2: at in the movie, it makes sense, but it's just

745
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 2: like Joe isn't allowed that sense of incredulousness that is

746
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 2: reflected in the real story.

747
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: Because when we do see that in Joe's character arc,

748
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: it's not until the last twenty or twenty five minutes

749
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: of the movie, and then we cut away from that,

750
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: and then the rest of the story focuses back to

751
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 1: Gracie and Elizabeth and then the movie's over. So like

752
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 1: like you said here and like right when, because sure,

753
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: like the agenda of this movie is to examine, you know,

754
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: like how difficult it is, especially for people who abuse,

755
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: and specifically child sex abuse, for whom it has been normalized.

756
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: Those people having a difficult time kind of interrogating that

757
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: because it has been normalized. But then you know, when

758
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: they start to examine it and think about it and

759
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: acknowledge what happened and reflect, then they start to be like,

760
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this was messed up, Like this is

761
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: a very traumatic thing that happened to me, and like

762
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: the movie seeks to explore that process, but it focuses

763
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: way too much on Gracey, not nearly enough on Joe,

764
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: and I would also also say not nearly enough on

765
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 1: their kids, especially like the twins. It just is like, well,

766
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: but what about that? To me? That scene where Gracie's

767
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: putting the makeup on Elizabeth. I was like, what is this?

768
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: Why is this? He cut it? I don't care about this, Like,

769
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 1: I just found it unnecessary to the more core story here,

770
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: which is, like, what does it look like when someone

771
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: for whom sex abuse child sex abuse has been so normalized?

772
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: What does it look like when they do start to

773
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: interrogate that and feel their feelings and try to confront

774
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: their abuser, and like that, why isn't that the core

775
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: of the story?

776
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 4: And what is the conversation around sex with your children?

777
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 4: What is it when your child brings home a partner?

778
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 4: Like what is like?

779
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 2: Seems like? Nothing like?

780
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 4: And and then the other thing is if you're taking

781
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,720
Speaker 4: from that interview, if you're literally ripping from that interview,

782
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 4: the thing about Villy is he actually seems pretty smart

783
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 4: in the real case, came from like a broken family

784
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 4: and says very specifically in that interview, he says, I

785
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 4: wanted my children to live in a two parent home

786
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 4: so that they had that growing up. Like there's a

787
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 4: point of view there that's clear and it's quiet and

788
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 4: it's strong, but like there's absolutely a point of view

789
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 4: if you're paying attention when you watch that interview and

790
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 4: I think, to me, this film is a really interesting

791
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 4: lesson and who gets attention? Who gets to be paid

792
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,959
Speaker 4: attention to even in a story like this one, Because

793
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 4: the most interesting thing about this story for me was

794
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 4: the story, not the storytelling.

795
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I feel like, ultimately, like if you're

796
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: coming to this movie hoping to get a what we

797
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 2: never get in stories about specifically child sex abuse and

798
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 2: people recovering from child sex abuse, which is a focus

799
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 2: on that you're gonna leave disappointed. I feel like the

800
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: way in which I was able to engage with this

801
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 2: movie is because these movies almost universally in a way

802
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 2: that this movie is not different centers the abuser. I

803
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 2: think that the one strength of this movie is that

804
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: I don't think it like leaves you wondering like is

805
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,240
Speaker 2: she a good person? Which a stunning number of these

806
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 2: movies do of, Like, not only is the story of

807
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: Lolita centered on Humberd Humbred, there is like ways that

808
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 2: a lot of people leave the movie adaptations of that

809
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 2: being like this was a tragedy. Ultimately, this is a

810
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: romantic tragedy. So not only do we have no interest

811
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 2: and active demonization done of the victim, but you have

812
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 2: this sort of bizarre, underhanded redemption arc for the abuser.

813
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: I think that this movie lays out pretty clear, especially

814
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 2: like on repeat viewings, that like she is delusional, she

815
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: is unapologetically a monster, she will never face herself, which

816
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: seems to be the experience of Mary Kayla Turno who

817
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: died in twenty twenty, and so in that way, I

818
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 2: think it is interesting saying the Natalie Portman character. Honestly,

819
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,479
Speaker 2: I like the idea of it, and like I feel

820
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 2: like there are a few moments where it felt valuable

821
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 2: where you see Natalie Portman so actively taking part in

822
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 2: the continued exploitation of this story, the continued like her

823
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,439
Speaker 2: whole job there is to focus on the abuser, which

824
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: is why I feel like it takes her a while

825
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,399
Speaker 2: to get even develop an interest in Joe, and when

826
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 2: she does develop an interest in Joe, it's gross. She

827
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: goes to the pet store and tries to fantasize what

828
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 2: it was like for Gracie to sexually abuse him in

829
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: a pet store, and it's like framed as like this

830
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 2: is such a goofy thing that I'm doing. I don't

831
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: think the movie thinks she's right for doing that, And

832
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,280
Speaker 2: I think it's like really gross to have to watch

833
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: someone so invested in exploiting this and then at the

834
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 2: end exploiting it badly on top of it. But it

835
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 2: still makes like all the same, not even like I mean,

836
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: it just like completely turns its head towards who was

837
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: abused and then who gets abused by extension where you

838
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 2: get moments with Georgie, but then you sort of get

839
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 2: it suggested like well but Georgie was kind of evil,

840
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: and you're like, well, I don't know, and I agree

841
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 2: with the kids where it's like everything you know about

842
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: the kids is for the most part in relation to

843
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 2: her and not him, you know that, like he seems

844
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 2: to be invested in being a really good father. I

845
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: do feel like, going back to your point, Kreen, like

846
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 2: if we're comparing Joe and the real life analog, really

847
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: who is of Samoan descent, that he's actively kind of

848
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 2: dumbed down a little bit. It seems like he's made

849
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 2: to seem more bumbling, less smart, more easily dismissed by

850
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: the narrative, and she's just like a bulldozer.

851
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 4: It was, and he was wooden. He struck me as

852
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:03,919
Speaker 4: quite Wooden like not anyway. Whatever, it's fine.

853
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, the performances are.

854
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 4: Good here in Stall. It's fine. It's fine. It's whatever.

855
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 4: We have to move on. But that's literally what this

856
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 4: podcast is about. We don't have to move on.

857
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: I mean, we can talk about till the Cows Come Home.

858
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: I mean. The movie's other agenda is to examine how

859
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: often something like child sex abuse gets sensationalized and mishandled

860
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: in media, especially you know, tabloids and Hollywood movies, which

861
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 1: is why that final scene plays out the way it does,

862
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 1: and why you see Natalie Portman's characters are pan out

863
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: the way it does, because at first, she seems, you know,

864
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: objective about this, as far as like, I'm conducting this research,

865
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: I'm talking to these people, I'm trying to understand how

866
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: they feel, why this happened, all of that stuff. But

867
00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 1: then you see her start to engage in really gross behavior.

868
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:06,959
Speaker 1: She manipulates Joe into a sexual relationship with her, much

869
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: like his abuser did when he was a child. Like

870
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: it's just I think that that's something this movie handles well.

871
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:19,320
Speaker 1: Is like that examination of the mishandling of other Hollywood movies.

872
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: But as far as the way this movie's structured, I

873
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: feel like Natalie Portman's character coming in should just sort

874
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:33,760
Speaker 1: of be a catalyst that gets Joe and their teen

875
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: kids to be thinking about this and interrogating it and

876
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: processing something that they've clearly never had a chance to process.

877
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 2: Right, It's not even like you need to get rid

878
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 2: of the Natalie Portman character, because I mean, it's devastating

879
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: to see Joe once again put through the cycle of abuse,

880
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 2: and Natalie Portman is sort of like peacocky around like

881
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 2: she's a fucking journalist. She's not, and I think people

882
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 2: a trusting her as if she is, which is a

883
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: huge miss and I think that that's the mistake that

884
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 2: Joe makes, is he entrusts her as if she is

885
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 2: not just a journalist, but an ethical journalist, and she's neither.

886
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 2: She's on a show called Nora's Arc like she which

887
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 2: I do think is really funny every time I hear it.

888
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: But I think all three of us sort of agree

889
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: that the movie's mission versus what we would have wanted

890
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 2: focused on is different. But even going with what the

891
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,240
Speaker 2: screenwriter chose to go, and why can't we see people

892
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 2: talking behind Natalie Portman's back. She is not God, She's

893
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 2: not even good at her job. I would have loved

894
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 2: like especially with the kids and her daughter Mary like that.

895
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: Maybe it is just like the dressing room scene that

896
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: is like so devastating, and like Mary, I wanted to

897
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 2: see more with all three of them, but with her specifically,

898
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 2: because it seems that of the three, she is going

899
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 2: through like coming to terms with who her mother is

900
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 2: for is who she's been conditioned to believe her mother

901
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 2: is still loving her mother, and working through that and

902
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 2: going through like the fact that Gracie's character is at

903
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: different points controlling and critical of all three of her

904
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,399
Speaker 2: children's bodies. It's like, drink milk, you're not strong enough,

905
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 2: your arms look fat in that dress, and I gave

906
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 2: you a scale for graduation like she's I think in

907
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 2: a way that is very typical of like white boomer

908
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:36,959
Speaker 2: women obsessive about like monitoring their children's weight. But Mary,

909
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 2: in particularly, it seems like she's going through so so much.

910
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 2: When she's about to leave this house, they're clearly worried

911
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 2: about what's going to happen to their dad once he's gone.

912
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 2: Why can't we see the kids talk to each other,

913
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,879
Speaker 2: Like those are really really interesting conversations, and it makes

914
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 2: sense that, like the scene with Charlie and Joe and

915
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 2: the roof is really good and it's also clear and

916
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 2: just like remembering being a teenager with like a parrot

917
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 2: who is going through shit or is like emotionally fragile, Like,

918
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: those conversations with them are totally different than the ones

919
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: you have with your sibling where you're like, what the

920
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 2: fuck is going on? Like they know what's going on?

921
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 2: Why don't we get any insight? It feels like this

922
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 2: movie will only be as interested as Natalie Portman's character

923
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 2: is in anything that's happening, and that seems like a

924
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 2: huge missed opportunity.

925
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 4: And if you had her be the lead, it's kind

926
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 4: of like the inconsistency. Okay, great, this is the framing

927
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 4: device of the movie. We're deciding that this is what

928
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 4: we're going with.

929
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 2: Great.

930
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 4: Is she a B movie actor that's like in a

931
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 4: bad thing that isn't good? Or is she like incredible

932
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 4: at delivering this monologue in an Oscar winning performance? Is

933
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,959
Speaker 4: she you know, genuinely interested? Like there's like a little

934
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 4: bit of tonal like because Natalie is a pretty invested actor,

935
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 4: and that's a phenomenal monologue. She crushes the game on

936
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:53,439
Speaker 4: that shit.

937
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 2: So it's like, but then it's bad ten minutes later.

938
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, But then it's like, let her be amazing

939
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 4: at her job so that she can ask better questions

940
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 4: and we can learn more as an audience, do you

941
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 4: know what I mean? Like as opposed to being so surface,

942
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 4: I don't know what the solutions are because it's like,

943
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 4: in order for you to have the conversations with just

944
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 4: the siblings or whatever, then she's not around, do you

945
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 4: know what I mean? Like, there aren't a lot of

946
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 4: like third person omniscient. It's weird like sometimes it will

947
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 4: show you just the relationship between Juliane and Charles Melton,

948
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 4: but like but then it weirdly shifts into like third

949
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 4: person omniscient, like sometimes but it's mostly Natalie Portman. We're

950
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 4: looking at everything through every scene, so I don't think

951
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 4: it quite decided, if that makes sense. So that's the

952
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 4: only reason I'm saying, like, Okay, but from the lensing device,

953
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 4: like make an omniscient third and she's one of an

954
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 4: ensemble of characters, and then we can actually see a

955
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 4: little bit more like portraiture and it's.

956
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 2: Like you don't even need to lose the focus that, Like,

957
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 2: it seems like another big mission of this movie is

958
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 2: to like, I don't like in a way that the

959
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 2: more I'm so glad we're talking about that, Like, the

960
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 2: more that we talk about it, the more it's like

961
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 2: it is frustrating that, Like Gracie is really obviously needing

962
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 2: to control the narrative around her life, and she's like,

963
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 2: I don't know about this movie, but clearly if she

964
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 2: can get Natalie Portman on her side, that is a

965
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 2: huge win for her in controlling this narrative. And she

966
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: wants to, you know, be like we are a normal family,

967
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: we are happy. Why would you portray us, you know otherwise.

968
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 2: But like there's a way to like even still center

969
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 2: how she is being controlling without giving the lens to

970
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 2: Natalie Portman. Then, like, even if you give it to

971
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 2: Julianne Moore, you still get a lot more insight into

972
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 2: what this family is. Like, I mean, you do get yeah,

973
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 2: like Karrian, You're right, you do get those moments where

974
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 2: you're back in the house and it does shift to

975
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 2: Joe in moments, But it's like only to an extent

976
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 2: and only really to the extent that it serves Gracie

977
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 2: or Elizabeth's story, not outside of that, except I think

978
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 2: the only real exception to that is the scene with

979
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 2: his son and the scene this father. Those are the

980
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 2: only two like moments we get to see Joe, and

981
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 2: then when he's texting his secret girlfriend and I'm like,

982
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 2: go to her, go to her whatever, go get the

983
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 2: butterfly girlfriend, get out of there.

984
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we also don't have any sense of how

985
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: Joe's father or Joe's son feels about this situation, except

986
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 1: like a tiny little glimpse where Charlie when they're on

987
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,439
Speaker 1: the roof and he says just something like I can't

988
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: wait to leave home, implying this situation's fucked up. And

989
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 1: I had thought it was normal because that's all I knew.

990
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,280
Speaker 1: But when I sat down and thought about it off screen,

991
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 1: maybe it's not great and I want to leave. But

992
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: we can only sort of speculate it what he's feeling.

993
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 2: I also want to know, like why if we have

994
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 2: the older sister Honor who is out, and I think

995
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 2: she's like more empowered to be like this fucking sucks

996
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,879
Speaker 2: now that she's out. She has like incredible freshman year

997
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 2: in college energy I really love her where she's just

998
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 2: like you guys fucking suck like and she's right or

999
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,720
Speaker 2: her mom fucking sucks and she treats her as such.

1000
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 2: But it's like, does Honor talk to her half siblings?

1001
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 2: Like is that something that is? It doesn't seem like that,

1002
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: but we don't know for sure. It seems like in

1003
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 2: my mind, why wouldn't once you're out of that house,

1004
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 2: why wouldn't you want to go talk to your half

1005
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 2: siblings and sort of have some validation of how fucked

1006
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 2: it is to have to be in Gracie's life at all,

1007
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 2: much less be her child. Like there, I don't know,

1008
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 2: there's a million relationships that you can explore, but it

1009
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,320
Speaker 2: just more focused on like the bubble that is carefully

1010
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 2: built around Gracie to protect her, and that mission has

1011
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 2: made clear super early because it's like Kaitlyne, what you

1012
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,359
Speaker 2: were saying with the neighbor being like be nice to her.

1013
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 2: We know that the lawyer's wife buys a million pineapple

1014
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 2: upside diame cakes from her to make her feel like

1015
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 2: she is liked. No one is worrying about Joe. Joe

1016
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:03,879
Speaker 2: is a critical component to preserving Gracie's reality. And that's

1017
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:07,839
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that that like does reflect real

1018
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 2: life dynamics that happened, but like get more into it.

1019
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 4: It's also like you can show how controlling somebody is

1020
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 4: by all the people around them who talk about them

1021
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 4: behind their back. It's all those conversations around somebody that

1022
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 4: you can be like, oh, this is the way that

1023
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 4: they're manipulative, because then you can watch their behavior but

1024
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 4: then see how that plays in contrast, even down to

1025
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 4: like that dinner table conversation when the teenager like stomps

1026
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 4: upstairs and he doesn't have the milk something. It's like

1027
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 4: if Julianne Moore was just like teenagers, you know, teenagers,

1028
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 4: you can't control them, do you know what I mean?

1029
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 4: And it's like but really though, because you fucked one,

1030
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 4: you know. So it's like the kind of like if

1031
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 4: you could even just twist the knife a little bit

1032
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 4: deeper into like having the character have to confront some

1033
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 4: of what she did because of the presence of Natalie

1034
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 4: Portman and the questioning that would come up as a

1035
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 4: result of this person. Because even that Ozzie interviewer in

1036
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 4: that interview does more of it than this film does

1037
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 4: in my opinion. You know, he was like, Mary, you

1038
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 4: were wrong. Mary, come on, you were wrong, Mary, Mary,

1039
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 4: come on, come on, Mary right? And Mary, he was

1040
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 4: a child, Mary, you know what I mean?

1041
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 2: Like, and then Villie is also sitting right next to

1042
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 2: her being like I was a child. Like it's if

1043
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 2: you're listening to this episode, you haven't seen that interview.

1044
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 2: It's brutal, but it is important to and I haven't seen,

1045
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 2: like I find it really frustrating. So when I went

1046
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 2: to the SAG screen, I was really confused and bothered,

1047
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 2: especially having seen so many movies like this how everyone

1048
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 2: but also Julianne more specifically, and I love Julianne where

1049
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 2: but she will not call this character a child sex

1050
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 2: abuser or an abuser at all, Like it was really

1051
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 2: And at first I was like, maybe this was a

1052
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 2: weird interview, Like I don't know, it felt off to

1053
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 2: me because first of all, the name Mary kay Laturno

1054
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 2: or really fill out did not come up in this

1055
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 2: forty five minute discussion they had, which is already like

1056
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 2: I was like, is there like a life right's evasiveness?

1057
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 2: But then I was like, no, she's dead, Like why

1058
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 2: could we not acknowledge the very very clear source material

1059
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 2: here that which has been consistent in their press tour

1060
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 2: are then julian more specifically, like this is pulling from

1061
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 2: a Todd Fields right.

1062
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 1: Todd Haynes is the director of not Todd Tar Todd Haynes.

1063
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 4: Towar Todd's toward Tod's hard to keep them straight.

1064
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 2: I like his work, but I can't remember it. Sorry,

1065
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 2: Sorry to Todd Haynes. Okay, this is an interview he

1066
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 2: did with Sit and Sound where he's describing what my

1067
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 2: recollection of that Q and A was. So he says, quote,

1068
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 2: I already mentioned how I was not ready to think

1069
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 2: about certain aspects of the Mary kay Laturno story. But

1070
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 2: Julianne had a very strong idea that this woman wasn't

1071
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 2: a pedophile, that she had a princess syndrome, an intense

1072
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 2: kne to be rescued by a young, virile man. It's

1073
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 2: like the myth of the young knight, who, with his

1074
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 2: sheer virility and stunning youth, will save you the damsel

1075
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 2: in distress. This enabled both parties to deny the age difference,

1076
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 2: because the power could shift back into his sure hands

1077
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 2: or whatever. And I did want those lines in the

1078
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 2: final bedroom scene, who's the boss and who is in charge?

1079
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 2: Who is in charge? To suggest the myths that they

1080
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 2: live under. This movie was just so full of extremes

1081
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 2: and exceptions and tabloid excess. It's also about people who

1082
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 2: refuse to look at themselves and the choices they make,

1083
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 2: which we all do, and I knew I also was

1084
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 2: doing unquote, so.

1085
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: I like, wait, so Todd Haynes is saying that Julianne

1086
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: Moore refused to acknowledge that Mary Kayla Turno was a

1087
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 1: sex criminal and a rapist. Is that what I'm gathering,

1088
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 1: I'm not.

1089
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 2: Totally clear, and I don't want it, Like that's a

1090
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 2: huge thing to level against someone. Yeah, it sounds like

1091
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 2: at least in her process to prepare for this character,

1092
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 2: she was like, well, Gracie doesn't think that she's a pedophile,

1093
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 2: So I as an actor cannot just.

1094
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 1: Like a going method kind of like I have to

1095
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 1: get into this character psyche.

1096
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 2: And it sounds like that, but it's also like, I mean,

1097
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, and then at this point I'm reviewing

1098
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 2: some interviews I watch, but still it's just like it

1099
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 2: is weird to me that she's not playing the part anymore?

1100
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 2: Why can't you comment on this part, like, if you

1101
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:27,479
Speaker 2: have to put yourself in a fucked up heads place

1102
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:30,919
Speaker 2: to play a character to some extent, that's the job,

1103
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 2: that's how a lot of people do it. But you

1104
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 2: filmed this a year ago. Why can't you not like

1105
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 2: acknowledge who you were clearly basing your performance on. Because

1106
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 2: there was a lot of talk about the creative choice

1107
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 2: of the list, but that also comes from Mary Bayla Turnal,

1108
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 2: so like acknowledge, Like, I mean whatever, I just think

1109
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 2: it's a very confusing choice to not acknowledge. To continue

1110
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 2: in the press tour, be like, well, I have to

1111
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 2: honor this character. You're like, no, you don't. Your character

1112
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 2: is a sex abuser. They went to.

1113
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 1: Jail, especially because that's in direct conflict and contrast to

1114
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 1: what this movie's trying to say, which is, look how

1115
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: fucked up Hollywood mishandles and how it sensationalizes child sex

1116
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 1: abuse in movies about that, Like.

1117
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 2: It was really the only person and I'm blood so

1118
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 2: like the screenwriter Sammy Birch is like, yeah, I remembered,

1119
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 2: like as I think Sammy Burch is like in her

1120
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 2: late thirties and like remembered basically being the age of

1121
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:35,439
Speaker 2: Villy Fulau when the story happened, Like has talked about

1122
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 2: that at length, but every other major creative player like

1123
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 2: will not go there. And I just think it's weird.

1124
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 2: I don't get it because, yeah, like you're saying, celet

1125
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 2: that feels like it plays into the tropes around these movies,

1126
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:53,880
Speaker 2: because I feel like with these movies, the content of

1127
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 2: them and the way that they're discussed in public is

1128
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 2: like almost equally important. I know that Todd Haynes can't

1129
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 2: control the way his movie has discussed or received, but

1130
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 2: it's just as significant. That's also kind of what the

1131
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 2: movie is about. So I just think it is. I

1132
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 2: just it's been on my mind for weeks. Thank you

1133
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 2: for listening to my Ted talk at Why won't Julianne

1134
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 2: you're Todd Todd, My Todd talk Tod Ted talk. Why

1135
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 2: won't Todd make her talk about this? Why want Tod

1136
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 2: tell her to talk about it?

1137
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 4: Do you remember Jamie that did you? Were you able

1138
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 4: to find the name of that other movie on HBO

1139
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 4: that some other very good actor played.

1140
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, there are so many movies about child sex abuse

1141
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 2: on HBO. I can't find the one that I'm because

1142
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 2: I know it came out in twenty twenty or twenty

1143
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 2: twenty one.

1144
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 4: I wish I could tell you. I might be able

1145
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 4: to find it for you later.

1146
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 2: But it's it was really good.

1147
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 4: I just remember watching that. I love the feeling when

1148
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 4: I watch something a feeling illuminated. I just love the

1149
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:56,480
Speaker 4: feeling of feeling like I understood someone else's experience that's

1150
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 4: so different than mine, and you take me into the

1151
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 4: lens of like their erience, even if it's not my experience,

1152
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 4: Like that's kind of to me the magic of the

1153
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 4: storytelling in the filmmaking. And I just remember that that

1154
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 4: film that I cannot remember the name of. Clearly I'm

1155
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 4: terrible with names.

1156
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: I don't even remember this coming out.

1157
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 4: It was nominated for an Emmy, Was it okay?

1158
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 2: I don't think I knew a lot of people that

1159
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 2: watched it. I mean, but it's a really hard movie

1160
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:18,040
Speaker 2: to watch.

1161
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a hard movie to watch for sure.

1162
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 4: The Tale, The Tale, The Tale, The Tale.

1163
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 2: I totally agree with you, Karen, like it really puts

1164
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 2: in perspective over the course of a couple of hours,

1165
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 2: just like what a difficult experience that is to like

1166
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,959
Speaker 2: untangle in your head even well into your adulthood, which

1167
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 2: is what Joe is going through. And the movie only

1168
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 2: shows you the very very beginning of him and like

1169
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 2: leaves him in this interesting place too, where he doesn't

1170
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 2: want to sit next to the family at graduation, but

1171
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 2: he's still so proud of his kids, and you're just like,

1172
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,680
Speaker 2: please just get in the car and never go back, please.

1173
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 1: And take your kids with you, like get them out

1174
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 1: of there. Well they're out, that's the thing.

1175
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, yeah, I'm just reading this is Wikipedia. The

1176
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 4: Tales are twenty eighteen American drama thal written and directed

1177
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 4: by Jennifer Fox, starring Laura Dern. It tells the story

1178
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 4: about Fox's own childhood sexual abuse and her coming to

1179
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 4: terms with it later in life. So I think it

1180
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 4: was probably because it was her personal story that it

1181
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 4: was like, oh wow, that was a film where I

1182
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:23,840
Speaker 4: kind of watched something and I was like, damn, Like

1183
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 4: I watched someone go on a journey and learn how

1184
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 4: they saw something and then how they learned what something

1185
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 4: else was in a way that I don't know was

1186
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 4: just like wildly elegant. It was a hard movie to

1187
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 4: watch and not a lot of people watched it, you know,

1188
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 4: and maybe that's part of it, do you know what

1189
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 4: I mean, Like, maybe it's all of this is also

1190
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:45,280
Speaker 4: like a game of marketing and distribution and like who

1191
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 4: gets eyeballs for whatever reason, et cetera. You know, But

1192
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 4: that I do think, in contrast to May December, is

1193
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 4: like an interesting counterpoint, just I think specifically because it

1194
01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 4: centers the victim.

1195
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 2: It's like and we both liked it and didn't remember

1196
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 2: the name because no one talks about it anymore. It's

1197
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 2: that sort of terrible. The book that I wanted to

1198
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 2: recommend that sort of deals with the same perspective is

1199
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 2: called My Dark Vanessa came out in twenty nineteen twenty

1200
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 2: twenty by Kate Elizabeth Russell, based on experiences from her childhood.

1201
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 2: But it's basically about it's told in flashbacks and in

1202
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 2: the present, where it's about an adult woman coming to

1203
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 2: terms with the fact that she was groomed and sexually

1204
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 2: abused by her teacher and did not believe that to

1205
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:32,200
Speaker 2: be true until she's I think the characters in her

1206
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 2: mid thirties when she starts to deal with it, and

1207
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 2: it's I mean, it's brutal, but it feels like both

1208
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 2: of those projects are doing what you would want and

1209
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 2: what I think should be more common. And this isn't

1210
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 2: a problem specific to May December, but it does feel

1211
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 2: like in a movie that is trying to comment on

1212
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 2: how these stories are told, It's gross to say, but

1213
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 2: I do think it is more marked to center the

1214
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 2: abuser and the stories that are not centered on the

1215
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:09,959
Speaker 2: abuser do not tend to get this same promotional push.

1216
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 2: Because it reminded me, Okay, this is like me being

1217
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 2: a broken record, but it reminded me of doubt Go

1218
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 2: with Me Here, which is a movie that is also

1219
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 2: about child sex abuse, but that there is this mystery

1220
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 2: about the way that that movie is made of, like

1221
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:28,120
Speaker 2: did he do it? That feels completely beside the point

1222
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 2: of like, yes, he obviously did it. Why can't we

1223
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 2: center the family more? Why is Viola Davis only a

1224
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 2: one scene? Why do we barely see the child all

1225
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 2: that stuff? And it feels like, because of the way

1226
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 2: that this movie is framed, the movie ends on this

1227
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 2: weird cliffhanger, like where Julia Moore is just saying shit

1228
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 2: at this point and then you're like, oh, what is

1229
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 2: her deal? And you're like I don't think that should

1230
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 2: be the central question of this movie, Like I, I

1231
01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 2: don't know.

1232
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:00,080
Speaker 4: So here's a controversial point. It's like in an industry

1233
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:05,760
Speaker 4: with notoriously so many high powered groomers and sex abusers,

1234
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 4: like I mean, because the thing that's interesting to me

1235
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 4: about the tale that we both don't remember is it's

1236
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 4: also centered on an adult, like it is. It's actually

1237
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 4: I can understand why it would be difficult to watch

1238
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:18,880
Speaker 4: a child, but it's interesting that it's another like very

1239
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:23,759
Speaker 4: prominent like Oscar nominated, brilliant kind of I think caliber

1240
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,679
Speaker 4: of like Julian Moore, Natalie Portman like kind of actor.

1241
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:29,800
Speaker 4: It's a great cast, it's beautifully done. Why didn't it

1242
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 4: get the same push? Why didn't that get the theatrical

1243
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 4: We don't know. We don't know what the story is there,

1244
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:38,360
Speaker 4: but there's something. And again this is not the conspiracy

1245
01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:40,640
Speaker 4: theorist in me, but it's like, is it a cultural

1246
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,800
Speaker 4: thing where it's like the audience isn't down or is

1247
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 4: it like a is it like a gatekeeper thing as

1248
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 4: to what stories we think are like what somebody in

1249
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 4: top position decides to put their push behind good question

1250
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 4: whether that's conscious or subconscious, not even that it's like

1251
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 4: some conspiracy theory and citious thing. But I do think

1252
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:06,080
Speaker 4: it's hilarious that we live in a post Harvey Weinstein world,

1253
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 4: a post Les Moonvez world, running CBS for years and

1254
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 4: then getting out on million dollar deals, and it's just

1255
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:16,599
Speaker 4: like people failing upwards after they're like grooming and sexual

1256
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,120
Speaker 4: abuse habits, like even in this business to this day,

1257
01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 4: it's like and then we're surprised that, like the stories

1258
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:24,720
Speaker 4: that get centered in this business are the ones that

1259
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 4: like center the abuser and the mystery around them. Like

1260
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:29,440
Speaker 4: is it that surprising?

1261
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 1: Right? It's the same way that our cultures obsessed with

1262
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 1: like true crime from a ooh the serial killer standpoint,

1263
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 1: like ooh, the perpetrators of these crimes, let's learn all

1264
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:45,080
Speaker 1: about them and how did they get to where they

1265
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 1: are and blah blah blah, whereas we rarely remember who

1266
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 1: the victims were, and we don't talk about them and

1267
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:55,640
Speaker 1: we don't remember their names. I don't know. There's just

1268
01:09:55,680 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 1: something about our current cultural climate that we are, for

1269
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:07,080
Speaker 1: some reason able to more easily stomach learning about and

1270
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:13,639
Speaker 1: hearing stories about criminals and perpetuators. Are these horrible things that.

1271
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 2: I don't even think that it's our current cultural climate. I

1272
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:18,719
Speaker 2: just feel like it's just like a stagnant Yeah, it's

1273
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:21,160
Speaker 2: gone on forever. I don't know. I mean, like, what

1274
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:24,719
Speaker 2: seems abundantly clear is that the stories that are told,

1275
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,840
Speaker 2: it's very in line with the stories we see pop

1276
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 2: off and get really pushed in media. The only reason

1277
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 2: this movie exists is because the Mary kay La Turno

1278
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:35,840
Speaker 2: story was treated in the way that it was, to

1279
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:39,640
Speaker 2: the extent that a writer felt, thirty years later the

1280
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 2: need to comment on it because the coverage affected her

1281
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:46,799
Speaker 2: so strongly. But the coverage did not take an interest

1282
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:50,559
Speaker 2: in Billy and mischaracterize it as an affair, which is

1283
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 2: like what this movie is attempting to grapple with. But

1284
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:56,719
Speaker 2: it's like you're just like caught in this fucking feedback

1285
01:10:56,760 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 2: loop of commenting on how poorly it's talked about. And

1286
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:03,400
Speaker 2: I hope that like this movie being well regarded. I

1287
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:06,800
Speaker 2: don't feel optimistic about it, honestly, but that this movie

1288
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:10,559
Speaker 2: being generally well reviewed, well thought of, will at least

1289
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:15,719
Speaker 2: indicate that there is an interest in confronting these kinds

1290
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:20,760
Speaker 2: of stories, hopefully centering the right people, the people who

1291
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 2: are being victimized and who are surviving on long periods

1292
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:28,320
Speaker 2: of time having experienced this abuse. I also think that

1293
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:33,799
Speaker 2: like this, I mean, who knows how you characterize this movie.

1294
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 2: It like it is objectively weird to be like this

1295
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 2: is a comedy. It's not, But there are moments of

1296
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:45,599
Speaker 2: weirdness and moments of levity in it that I thought, Like, again,

1297
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 2: if there is a movie about survivor of child sex abuse,

1298
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:54,599
Speaker 2: it doesn't need to be tragedy porn, even if they

1299
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 2: are going through something really difficult, Like, you can have

1300
01:11:57,360 --> 01:12:00,040
Speaker 2: moments of levity. You can have moments of like be

1301
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 2: a person and experiencing day to day shit and weird

1302
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 2: stuff in your life while grappling with this. If the

1303
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 2: concern is like it's going to be too depressing, yeah,

1304
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:14,760
Speaker 2: it's going to be really difficult to talk about.

1305
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:15,600
Speaker 4: But it's like, I.

1306
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 1: Mean, think how many stand up specials are about a

1307
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:20,559
Speaker 1: comics trauma in some way?

1308
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it's possible to have levity to these stories

1309
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:30,240
Speaker 2: and center survivors as opposed to the perpetrators of it.

1310
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:32,920
Speaker 2: But I don't know. And also the two stories we're

1311
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 2: talking about, the Tale and My Dark Vanessa, while like

1312
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:40,720
Speaker 2: closer to what we're wanting to see in storytelling are

1313
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:44,479
Speaker 2: centered around young white women, and like, you don't see

1314
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 2: stories like the fictional character of Joe or the real

1315
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:56,200
Speaker 2: life person really fulau dealt with in anything that gets produced.

1316
01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:58,439
Speaker 2: So the fact that the tale comes out and not

1317
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 2: many people get to see it is like, it's just

1318
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:02,800
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's really discouraging.

1319
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:05,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, I will say that when you brought up Caitlin

1320
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:08,759
Speaker 4: the like why is our culture fascinated with the murderers,

1321
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:11,320
Speaker 4: It's like because I've never really been that interested in that.

1322
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 4: But when I hear other people talk about it, the

1323
01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:15,759
Speaker 4: thing that I've heard them say, which I thought was interesting,

1324
01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 4: is like it's so far from my life, do you

1325
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:20,719
Speaker 4: know what I mean? Or like my life is calm.

1326
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:22,599
Speaker 4: I want my life to be calm. So there's like

1327
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 4: a voyeuristic element of like an escapist voyeuristic element of

1328
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:30,280
Speaker 4: like let me see how like dark and weird other

1329
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 4: people's like fucked up lives are. Because then I go

1330
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:35,000
Speaker 4: back to my life and it's like my kids and

1331
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:37,200
Speaker 4: my family and I like feel good. Or it's like

1332
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:39,960
Speaker 4: I've heard the same reason that people like reality television.

1333
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:42,439
Speaker 4: I just love the drama because I don't like it

1334
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 4: in my life. So this is like an outlet, kind

1335
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:47,040
Speaker 4: of like the way that sports is an outlet for war,

1336
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:48,639
Speaker 4: you know what I mean. Like it's like a way

1337
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,760
Speaker 4: to be competitive in like a war sense. I mean

1338
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:52,559
Speaker 4: that's not the way I see it personally, but I

1339
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 4: think that there's an interesting take of Like the other

1340
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:57,760
Speaker 4: question is what do you want from your media? You know,

1341
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:00,160
Speaker 4: and how much space do we have in a market

1342
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 4: place and in this attention economy? Like who gets the attention?

1343
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:06,879
Speaker 4: To that end, I hope you have millions of listeners

1344
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:09,440
Speaker 4: because otherwise I'm going to be devastated.

1345
01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:11,200
Speaker 1: We have billions.

1346
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 4: Wow, Okay, great Zuckerberg numbers. I love that.

1347
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:19,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, our Patreon is eleven billion people and we don't

1348
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 1: there are not even that many people on the planet. Yeah,

1349
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:25,360
Speaker 1: but we have alien listeners from other solar systems.

1350
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:26,599
Speaker 4: Oh that's so chic.

1351
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 1: Yeaeah, pretty cool.

1352
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:30,800
Speaker 2: It's a new pilot program that Patreon's doing. We've had

1353
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 2: a lot of luck with it.

1354
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:33,200
Speaker 1: Just yeah.

1355
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:36,320
Speaker 4: I mean reaching out to new markets is really the move.

1356
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:36,920
Speaker 3: Yea.

1357
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 1: Our reach is far and wide, epernomical.

1358
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:41,240
Speaker 2: It's terrifying.

1359
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:44,639
Speaker 4: What I do think is very funny about the movie though,

1360
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 4: is like I can't think of that many movies that

1361
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 4: have like, oh, like I kind of watch it was

1362
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:52,000
Speaker 4: like okay, And then as time went on, I was like,

1363
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:55,639
Speaker 4: why is this bothering me? I think that's the reason

1364
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:57,880
Speaker 4: I picked it as the one to talk about was

1365
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:00,240
Speaker 4: I was like, it took me a while to figure

1366
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:02,400
Speaker 4: it out because there's enough skill in the way that

1367
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 4: it's done.

1368
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it does have something to say that is valuable.

1369
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like I don't think it's a bad movie.

1370
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:13,080
Speaker 2: It's just like not as subversive as it's presenting itself.

1371
01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 2: I think it's right.

1372
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:17,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, And in a weird way, it's like the insidious

1373
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 4: nature of the way that like the things that were

1374
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:23,360
Speaker 4: wrong with it crept up on me. It's like weirdly

1375
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:27,599
Speaker 4: reflective of like the insidious nature of the entire story,

1376
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:29,680
Speaker 4: do you know what I mean, Like about abuse and

1377
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:31,760
Speaker 4: all of the other Like that's why I thought maybe

1378
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:33,559
Speaker 4: it would be like a kind of a rich discussion

1379
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:36,880
Speaker 4: because everyone has a very specific take, and I guess

1380
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 4: you could argue that that's also good storytelling.

1381
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:45,720
Speaker 1: I mean, it also makes you ponder this movie not

1382
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:48,840
Speaker 1: being that subversive because of who it centers, which is

1383
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:55,440
Speaker 1: privileged white women. Like consider if the Mary kay Laturno

1384
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:59,160
Speaker 1: or like, you know, a woman who abused a young

1385
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:04,280
Speaker 1: boy was a woman of color, that story probably would

1386
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:07,559
Speaker 1: have not gotten nearly the same media coverage that the

1387
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:09,759
Speaker 1: Mary Kayla turnout case Scott or it would.

1388
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 2: Have been treated tremendously differently.

1389
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, because of the way that like, white women doing

1390
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:20,439
Speaker 1: bad things get so sensationalized in media, and then this

1391
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:22,559
Speaker 1: movie is just kind of like perpetuating that same thing

1392
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:25,639
Speaker 1: of like, well, yeah, we're focusing on the two white

1393
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:31,480
Speaker 1: women of this story versus the survivor of the abuse,

1394
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 1: who is a person of color, and we're barely going

1395
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:36,639
Speaker 1: to focus on him.

1396
01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:39,639
Speaker 4: So yeah, and that's all a function of the fact

1397
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 4: that this movie was on the Blacklist and Natalie Portman

1398
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 4: took an interest in it, probably because she played that

1399
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:48,040
Speaker 4: rolling lee on the professional you know, back in the day.

1400
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:49,799
Speaker 2: So we're about like for yeah.

1401
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:52,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, And so she took an interest in it,

1402
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:55,080
Speaker 4: and she's famous enough to take it to her friend

1403
01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:58,720
Speaker 4: Todd Haynes and like, and then he's famous enough to

1404
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:02,280
Speaker 4: know Julian Moore and those people are able to get

1405
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 4: this story made because those people have, like from a

1406
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:11,120
Speaker 4: financier's perspective, it's enough like Cloud that it makes the

1407
01:17:11,200 --> 01:17:14,640
Speaker 4: financial investment of the film worth it. So there's like

1408
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:18,080
Speaker 4: also these weird mechanisms where it's almost built in, do

1409
01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like it's like if it

1410
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:23,800
Speaker 4: wasn't a prominent like, how many prominent black actors are

1411
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:26,920
Speaker 4: there who could do that? How many prominent POC actors

1412
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:28,879
Speaker 4: are there that have that level.

1413
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 1: Of cloud institutional support?

1414
01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:33,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, the institutional support where the name and the attachment

1415
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:35,920
Speaker 4: is like, Okay, we're going to take this first time

1416
01:17:35,960 --> 01:17:39,040
Speaker 4: screenwriter's movie and get it made kind of thing, right,

1417
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 4: you know what I mean? Like that's I think that

1418
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:42,720
Speaker 4: there's also like a bias or a skew, just in

1419
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:45,920
Speaker 4: terms of that's a vestige of like you said, culture

1420
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:47,719
Speaker 4: begets culture to an extent, right.

1421
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:51,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And then like going off that and again

1422
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 2: I'm presenting it as a hypothetical because I don't know

1423
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:56,080
Speaker 2: because the way that this movie has been discussed it has

1424
01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:59,719
Speaker 2: been so bizarre to me, like because of the sort

1425
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:03,200
Speaker 2: of sequence of this script getting handed from person to

1426
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:05,800
Speaker 2: person to person in the way you're describing, was it

1427
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:12,520
Speaker 2: ever handed to anyone who would have had the foresight

1428
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 2: to be like, hey, where's Joe for this section? Or

1429
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:20,120
Speaker 2: just like asking the questions because Charles Melton is the

1430
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:23,200
Speaker 2: least famous lead actor, how empowered do you really feel?

1431
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 2: How included in the conversation do you feel? I don't know,

1432
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,720
Speaker 2: but it doesn't seem like at least because I know

1433
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:33,200
Speaker 2: that Todd Haynes worked with Sammy Birch to revise this

1434
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 2: script before he directed it. But it's like there was

1435
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:38,800
Speaker 2: clearly no one in the room. If these conversations did happen,

1436
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:42,600
Speaker 2: I'd be curious what took place, because it's like, I

1437
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:45,560
Speaker 2: feel like you should be tracking Joe in scene to

1438
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:49,200
Speaker 2: scene and like finding points in the movie where you're like, okay,

1439
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:54,639
Speaker 2: if we're not going there with him, why, Like what

1440
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:58,960
Speaker 2: is the narrative function of excluding him at this point

1441
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:00,559
Speaker 2: in the narrative? What is the new and a function

1442
01:19:00,640 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 2: of not sharing this? Like is this I don't know?

1443
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:06,200
Speaker 2: And again it's just like I think the core frustration

1444
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:07,840
Speaker 2: is they wanted to tell a story that we don't

1445
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 2: think it is as relevant or interesting.

1446
01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:13,120
Speaker 4: Which is arts Like you know, it's like I've always

1447
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 4: heard when you give notes on a movie give notes

1448
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:17,240
Speaker 4: on the movie you watch, not the movie you would

1449
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:22,200
Speaker 4: have made. So we have not done that in this podcast.

1450
01:19:24,280 --> 01:19:27,599
Speaker 2: Todd Haynes didn't ask us for notes. So we talk

1451
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:28,080
Speaker 2: our shit.

1452
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:30,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we can talk our shit all we want.

1453
01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:32,479
Speaker 4: But that's the kind of It's like you said, it's

1454
01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:34,280
Speaker 4: not the story they wanted to tell. And I think

1455
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 4: maybe this is too cynical to say, but also maybe

1456
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:40,519
Speaker 4: they just didn't care. You know. I think the one

1457
01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:43,000
Speaker 4: thing we don't talk about enough is like a lot

1458
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:45,880
Speaker 4: of times the people in the room just don't care.

1459
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:49,120
Speaker 4: I think they don't care. I just don't think they care.

1460
01:19:49,320 --> 01:19:51,200
Speaker 4: It's not that you don't know. It's not that you

1461
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:53,880
Speaker 4: haven't read the articles. Is that the person in the

1462
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:56,800
Speaker 4: room has to give a fus shit, And it's a

1463
01:19:57,000 --> 01:20:00,519
Speaker 4: much easier position to pretend you give a fuck or

1464
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:03,479
Speaker 4: to say that you It's exactly the duality you're describing

1465
01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:06,800
Speaker 4: with Mary. You know, it's like it's much easier to

1466
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:09,960
Speaker 4: pretend to be a person who can who gives a fuck,

1467
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 4: than to truly face yourself and see the hypocrisy of actually, no,

1468
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:18,000
Speaker 4: he just wasn't that important to me, and anything that

1469
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:20,360
Speaker 4: was confronting and pointed out that it was important to

1470
01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 4: me was something I didn't want to listen to, and

1471
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 4: that wasn't given space in that room period. Like not

1472
01:20:25,439 --> 01:20:27,960
Speaker 4: in a mean way, but just in a like you know.

1473
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:32,000
Speaker 2: And in like the cynical Hollywood way. It's clear that

1474
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:35,440
Speaker 2: this movie once it was cast, they're like, well, regardless

1475
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:37,720
Speaker 2: of whether these are the most interesting characters, this is

1476
01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 2: what we're gonna give everything to because we got Natalie

1477
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:43,519
Speaker 2: Portman and Julianne Moore and no one in this movie.

1478
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:46,519
Speaker 2: Even though I think that there are performances I don't

1479
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:50,120
Speaker 2: love this Natalie Apartment performance, to be honest, Like, there

1480
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:54,639
Speaker 2: are performances that I think exceed and characters that are

1481
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:58,080
Speaker 2: more relevant to the story. But they're like, well, we

1482
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:01,720
Speaker 2: got to keep the famous person on because otherwise Netflix

1483
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:05,000
Speaker 2: executives people turn it off if Natalie Portman's not on.

1484
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:07,600
Speaker 2: Who gives a shit if this character is you know,

1485
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:10,479
Speaker 2: the story or not? Who knows. I know that those

1486
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:14,080
Speaker 2: processes are so, but it's like, I, cynically, I do

1487
01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:18,400
Speaker 2: believe that that is sort of why characters get focused

1488
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:21,840
Speaker 2: on that are not as important, and like, oh, for sure,

1489
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:22,479
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1490
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:24,559
Speaker 4: I think the thing about it that, Like, I think

1491
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:26,840
Speaker 4: for the longest time, I thought, Oh, people just don't know.

1492
01:21:27,439 --> 01:21:30,040
Speaker 4: And then the longer I've spent I was like, oh, no,

1493
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:30,800
Speaker 4: they don't care.

1494
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:32,559
Speaker 1: They don't they don't want to be bothered.

1495
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:34,120
Speaker 2: Oh they don't care.

1496
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:38,600
Speaker 4: And to understand that, you're like, Okay, then this is

1497
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:42,559
Speaker 4: a whole different thing, and maybe that's. Yeah, it's hard.

1498
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:46,840
Speaker 4: It's hard to confront any of our own whatever it is,

1499
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:48,120
Speaker 4: do you know what I mean? Like I try to

1500
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 4: remind myself that I'm like, you know, those iPhones are

1501
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:55,640
Speaker 4: made with like chips that are kind of like ruining countries,

1502
01:21:56,280 --> 01:21:58,599
Speaker 4: and I still have an iPhone. I try to remember

1503
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:02,720
Speaker 4: my own hypocrisy even if I'm not faced with that hypocrisy,

1504
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:05,000
Speaker 4: and how easy it is to kind of turn away

1505
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:06,759
Speaker 4: and say I don't want to deal with this because

1506
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 4: like I need my iPhone because of X Y or Z,

1507
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:11,679
Speaker 4: even though I know that where that chip is coming

1508
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:14,679
Speaker 4: from is actively making the world and other people's lives worse,

1509
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:16,479
Speaker 4: you know what I mean. Like it's like hard to

1510
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:19,680
Speaker 4: confront all of your own versions of hypocrisy. So like

1511
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:21,800
Speaker 4: I try to remember that as a human being and

1512
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:25,640
Speaker 4: like have empathy for that position too. You know, but

1513
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:30,200
Speaker 4: I haven't been able to like kind of reconcile the

1514
01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:35,160
Speaker 4: understanding of like preaching one thing public facing and then

1515
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:39,519
Speaker 4: the like apathy. Yeah yeah, but the actually I'm just

1516
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:42,479
Speaker 4: like just I wish people would just say, yeah, we

1517
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:44,880
Speaker 4: didn't care, because it's like, let me know where you stand.

1518
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:46,120
Speaker 4: It's kind of like the thing where it's like I'd

1519
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:49,799
Speaker 4: rather just hear, yeah, I'm racist than have somebody pretend

1520
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:51,880
Speaker 4: that they care and then like, actually there's all this

1521
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:54,240
Speaker 4: like insidious shit going on behind the scenes. I'm like,

1522
01:22:54,280 --> 01:22:56,000
Speaker 4: at least I can respect.

1523
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:57,360
Speaker 2: Your position that you're aware.

1524
01:22:57,920 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 4: I respect your take like it sucks and I don't

1525
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:03,840
Speaker 4: agree with you, but like, at least you have this

1526
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:06,000
Speaker 4: self awareness to be like this, who I am, bitch,

1527
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:08,120
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, like, and you stand by

1528
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:11,000
Speaker 4: and with that. But we don't live in that world.

1529
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:14,080
Speaker 4: And I think that's why I've never really been a

1530
01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:14,919
Speaker 4: fan of Earth.

1531
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:20,320
Speaker 1: And that's why we have so many Intergalactic listeners.

1532
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:23,240
Speaker 4: That Patreon.

1533
01:23:24,280 --> 01:23:27,559
Speaker 2: It's so frustrating, and like goes back to what your

1534
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:31,040
Speaker 2: point is is. I feel like there are elements of

1535
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:33,759
Speaker 2: this movie that are trying to make that point while

1536
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:36,559
Speaker 2: doing the same thing where it's like Bracie is a

1537
01:23:36,640 --> 01:23:39,479
Speaker 2: character who is aware of what the truth of the

1538
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:44,080
Speaker 2: situation is but would never admit it, and she is

1539
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:47,960
Speaker 2: made out to be kind of the villain of the story,

1540
01:23:48,120 --> 01:23:50,680
Speaker 2: when it's like this movie wouldn't have been produced and

1541
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:55,679
Speaker 2: that character wouldn't exist if these same systems weren't already

1542
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:59,719
Speaker 2: in You know, we certainly do live in this society

1543
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:02,439
Speaker 2: tone we Does anyone else have any thoughts on this

1544
01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:03,639
Speaker 2: movie they'd like to share.

1545
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:06,519
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say, that's why we do comedy,

1546
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:08,519
Speaker 4: because it feels like the only thing left to do

1547
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:10,960
Speaker 4: is laugh a lot at the times, you know, I

1548
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:12,920
Speaker 4: feel like the only thing left to do is laugh

1549
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:16,600
Speaker 4: and listen. The other thing that's great is that you

1550
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:19,600
Speaker 4: guys do this podcast and you have this space to

1551
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:21,599
Speaker 4: speak about it, Like I wouldn't have said it half

1552
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:24,799
Speaker 4: the fucking shit I said on this podcast in most places,

1553
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:27,559
Speaker 4: And honestly, when we get off this call, I'll probably

1554
01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:29,800
Speaker 4: ask you to delete most of it.

1555
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:35,640
Speaker 1: No, what you've contributed here today is very valuable.

1556
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:37,680
Speaker 4: And please don't put these opinions out there.

1557
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:40,479
Speaker 2: Sorry, this was all between us.

1558
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:44,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like a private, private comedy.

1559
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:45,080
Speaker 2: We're just for curious.

1560
01:24:45,320 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 4: Ye, cool cool cool cool cool, But.

1561
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:50,879
Speaker 2: No, I mean, it's like this conversation was tremendously helpful

1562
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:52,960
Speaker 2: for me to, yeah, just to like tease out, like

1563
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 2: what is working about this? What is it? And why

1564
01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:58,479
Speaker 2: is that? I feel like I hadn't gotten deep enough

1565
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 2: into that and why is that? And for a movie

1566
01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:04,200
Speaker 2: that just came out, that's a super valuable discussion for

1567
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:04,760
Speaker 2: us to have.

1568
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:09,519
Speaker 4: And it's also interesting to see how much movies are,

1569
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:12,519
Speaker 4: Like the one cool thing about a movie that's coming

1570
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:14,600
Speaker 4: out right now is movies are, to an extent a

1571
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:18,479
Speaker 4: reflection of the moment we're in, the cultural moment we're in.

1572
01:25:18,680 --> 01:25:20,599
Speaker 4: And so it's like sometimes if you can ask why

1573
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:23,679
Speaker 4: is that, you also start to understand the society around

1574
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:25,920
Speaker 4: you a little bit better. You know, the society you

1575
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:28,800
Speaker 4: live in, and why you know the way that maybe

1576
01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:30,880
Speaker 4: some of the choices in that movie were reflective of

1577
01:25:30,920 --> 01:25:33,479
Speaker 4: some of the systems in place, you know, that would

1578
01:25:33,479 --> 01:25:35,960
Speaker 4: make that be the movie that was told, which has

1579
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:38,920
Speaker 4: its own value and merit, And like, you know, it's

1580
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 4: also like we all understand that this is a bunch

1581
01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:44,360
Speaker 4: of like well meaning artists, I'm sure for the most part,

1582
01:25:44,400 --> 01:25:46,639
Speaker 4: who are like trying to make something good and that's

1583
01:25:46,680 --> 01:25:49,559
Speaker 4: always hard, and you get the money where you can

1584
01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:52,280
Speaker 4: and you fucking run with it. I'm sure all of

1585
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:54,640
Speaker 4: those people have like ten things they are trying to

1586
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:57,360
Speaker 4: get made that can't get made. You know, when you

1587
01:25:57,400 --> 01:26:01,280
Speaker 4: listen to like Martin scor says, he's whatever his stories about,

1588
01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:04,000
Speaker 4: like spending thirty years trying to make I don't know

1589
01:26:04,040 --> 01:26:06,280
Speaker 4: that movie with those old people in it, you know.

1590
01:26:06,479 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this feels like a stepping stone movie

1591
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:15,960
Speaker 1: where it's like cutting in a more right direction but

1592
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:20,639
Speaker 1: still missing the mark in some regards. But it'll open

1593
01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:24,559
Speaker 1: the doors to other movies and other stories down the

1594
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:27,280
Speaker 1: road that do more meaningfully explore the things that are

1595
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:29,799
Speaker 1: lacking in this movie, So we'll see.

1596
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 2: I hope that we live in a world where a

1597
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:36,000
Speaker 2: big director not just has the interest but also the

1598
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:42,160
Speaker 2: like institutional support to tell the story of a Joe

1599
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:48,480
Speaker 2: as opposed to intentionally or not. This movie like accomplishes

1600
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:55,559
Speaker 2: further turning Mary Kayla Turno into this American character that

1601
01:26:55,960 --> 01:27:00,479
Speaker 2: is still with us, and it's like, come on, guys,

1602
01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:02,040
Speaker 2: I can't like.

1603
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:05,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, we need a new Todd to make a different movie.

1604
01:27:05,200 --> 01:27:08,559
Speaker 2: But I don't incurred that was more Todds.

1605
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:11,559
Speaker 4: That's what we did, all right, More Todds is definitely

1606
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:14,200
Speaker 4: the conclusion of this podcast, and I think we've all

1607
01:27:14,200 --> 01:27:16,360
Speaker 4: decided more Todds.

1608
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:21,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is a future Caitlin and Jamie popping back.

1609
01:27:21,400 --> 01:27:27,559
Speaker 2: In as promised. Yes, we're recording this pick up on Wednesday,

1610
01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:31,360
Speaker 2: January tenth, if there are more updates. Unfortunately, this is

1611
01:27:31,360 --> 01:27:34,400
Speaker 2: why we don't usually cover movies that just came out. However,

1612
01:27:34,680 --> 01:27:38,519
Speaker 2: we did want to just sort of touch on a

1613
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:43,120
Speaker 2: few things first. I guess, having had a week to

1614
01:27:43,200 --> 01:27:45,400
Speaker 2: sit with the discussion we did in this episode, I

1615
01:27:45,400 --> 01:27:48,040
Speaker 2: feel like it was a lot of talk about what

1616
01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:52,800
Speaker 2: we would have liked versus what we got, and I've

1617
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:55,880
Speaker 2: been struggling with I've been sitting with this conversation, which

1618
01:27:56,120 --> 01:27:58,719
Speaker 2: I'm so glad we had because it was so challenging

1619
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:01,720
Speaker 2: and so like, I don't know, I guess I just

1620
01:28:01,880 --> 01:28:05,320
Speaker 2: wanted to add that as much as I think it

1621
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:08,639
Speaker 2: is like clear that it's not necessarily for the good

1622
01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:10,719
Speaker 2: of all for there to be this bevy of movies

1623
01:28:11,280 --> 01:28:16,000
Speaker 2: that ask you to try to understand the abuser, I

1624
01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:18,400
Speaker 2: feel like I might have oversimplified how I approach that.

1625
01:28:18,439 --> 01:28:22,240
Speaker 2: I don't think that that is a useless thing to

1626
01:28:22,479 --> 01:28:26,439
Speaker 2: attempt within a film. I don't think it's necessarily the

1627
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:29,559
Speaker 2: most important thing. But I was thinking about it just

1628
01:28:29,600 --> 01:28:33,280
Speaker 2: from the perspective of how I've heard a lot of

1629
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:36,920
Speaker 2: survivors of abuse talk about, not this movie specifically, but

1630
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:42,519
Speaker 2: movies that tackle these themes. Where as a culture, how

1631
01:28:42,560 --> 01:28:47,200
Speaker 2: do we prevent abuse if we don't understand it? And sure, so,

1632
01:28:47,360 --> 01:28:50,839
Speaker 2: I just like wanted to add that as an addition

1633
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:54,479
Speaker 2: to what we spoke about. I don't think it resolves

1634
01:28:54,520 --> 01:28:56,400
Speaker 2: a lot of the issues that we had to this movie,

1635
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:58,640
Speaker 2: but I don't think that that is like a completely

1636
01:28:58,680 --> 01:29:01,959
Speaker 2: cynical and terrible thing to attempt.

1637
01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:04,400
Speaker 1: No, And I don't think we explicitly said that. It's

1638
01:29:04,400 --> 01:29:08,080
Speaker 1: more just like, why does the focus always tend to

1639
01:29:08,080 --> 01:29:14,040
Speaker 1: be off the perpetrator and very rarely on anyone else involved.

1640
01:29:14,360 --> 01:29:18,200
Speaker 2: So the other thing that we need to talk about

1641
01:29:18,320 --> 01:29:22,080
Speaker 2: is the fact that we obviously discussed the many parallels

1642
01:29:22,120 --> 01:29:24,680
Speaker 2: that the story of Made December shares with Mary Kay

1643
01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:27,559
Speaker 2: Laturno and Billy Fulau. Since we recorded that the Golden

1644
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:31,599
Speaker 2: Globes have happened, Natalie Portman, Charles Melton and Julianne Moore

1645
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:34,519
Speaker 2: were nominated, so there's a lot of interviews that took

1646
01:29:34,520 --> 01:29:37,400
Speaker 2: place in the week leading up to it. Villy Fulau

1647
01:29:37,560 --> 01:29:42,400
Speaker 2: actually did watch and release a statement about this, so

1648
01:29:42,439 --> 01:29:45,519
Speaker 2: I just wanted to share what that was quickly. I

1649
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:48,240
Speaker 2: think it's very pointed. And then also Julianne Moore and

1650
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:51,960
Speaker 2: Natalie Portman have since reacted to that. So this was

1651
01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:55,840
Speaker 2: originally in an interview done with the Hollywood Reporter. You know,

1652
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:58,800
Speaker 2: long story short, no surprise here. He does not like

1653
01:29:59,120 --> 01:30:04,759
Speaker 2: the movie and offers clear reasoning why. He says, quote,

1654
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:06,840
Speaker 2: I'm still alive and well, if they had reached out

1655
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:09,679
Speaker 2: to me, we could have worked together on a masterpiece. Instead,

1656
01:30:09,680 --> 01:30:11,920
Speaker 2: they chose to do a rip off of my original story.

1657
01:30:12,400 --> 01:30:14,479
Speaker 2: I'm offended by the entire project and the lack of

1658
01:30:14,520 --> 01:30:17,160
Speaker 2: respect given to me who lived through a real story

1659
01:30:17,240 --> 01:30:20,360
Speaker 2: and is still living it unquote, and so I think

1660
01:30:20,479 --> 01:30:25,519
Speaker 2: I mean that unfortunately connects to the discussion we were

1661
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:28,759
Speaker 2: having about the fact that the more time that passes,

1662
01:30:28,800 --> 01:30:31,840
Speaker 2: I find it incredibly evasive and dishonest that the filmmakers

1663
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:35,479
Speaker 2: are not acknowledging the parts of this movie. I understand

1664
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:39,479
Speaker 2: that it is not one hundred percent biographical. It couldn't

1665
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:41,600
Speaker 2: be because they didn't reach out to him, right, But

1666
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:43,640
Speaker 2: I just think that it's like, for a movie that

1667
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:46,360
Speaker 2: seems to want to make a point about the exploitation

1668
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:51,760
Speaker 2: of survivors and of the media cycle, this press tour

1669
01:30:51,840 --> 01:30:55,639
Speaker 2: from May December does not feel challenging of that at all.

1670
01:30:55,720 --> 01:31:00,360
Speaker 2: It's extremely evasive. Every single response that you see as that, well,

1671
01:31:00,360 --> 01:31:03,000
Speaker 2: it's not based on that. But meanwhile, the climax of

1672
01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:06,439
Speaker 2: the movie features direct polls from Mary kay Laturno. Julian

1673
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:09,600
Speaker 2: More discussed watching documentaries about this case. I find it

1674
01:31:09,640 --> 01:31:14,679
Speaker 2: really frustrating. His quote continues quote. I love movies, good movies,

1675
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:17,680
Speaker 2: and I admire ones that capture the essence and complications

1676
01:31:17,680 --> 01:31:20,240
Speaker 2: of real life events, you know, movies that allow you

1677
01:31:20,280 --> 01:31:23,000
Speaker 2: to see or realize something new every time you watch them.

1678
01:31:23,439 --> 01:31:25,920
Speaker 2: Those kinds of writers and directors. Someone who can do

1679
01:31:25,960 --> 01:31:28,320
Speaker 2: that would be perfect to work with, because my story

1680
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:31,840
Speaker 2: is not nearly as simple as this movie portrays. Unquote.

1681
01:31:33,200 --> 01:31:38,280
Speaker 2: So here like again, I feel like I understand just whatever,

1682
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:43,960
Speaker 2: having seen biopics, the limitations of writing a biopic, how

1683
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:46,519
Speaker 2: you are behold into a lot of things that often

1684
01:31:46,560 --> 01:31:51,519
Speaker 2: produce a frustrating movie. If that is the case, this movie,

1685
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:54,880
Speaker 2: I don't think like has a case for being transformatively

1686
01:31:54,960 --> 01:31:59,080
Speaker 2: different enough from like change more details, is what I'm saying.

1687
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:02,400
Speaker 2: If you don't want to feel beholden to this real

1688
01:32:02,439 --> 01:32:06,240
Speaker 2: life survivor of abuse, who a lot of his biography

1689
01:32:06,320 --> 01:32:10,680
Speaker 2: was completely glazed over, Like you can't just change his

1690
01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:15,840
Speaker 2: race and make him less smart and be like transformative.

1691
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:19,160
Speaker 2: And I was seeing a lot of like back and

1692
01:32:19,200 --> 01:32:21,080
Speaker 2: forth on Twitter that generally fell on the side of

1693
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:24,479
Speaker 2: the movie. I just found it frustrating. What I found

1694
01:32:25,320 --> 01:32:29,040
Speaker 2: really frustrating was the actor's response is to this. I

1695
01:32:29,080 --> 01:32:31,880
Speaker 2: know that I reference the SAG screening that i'd been

1696
01:32:31,920 --> 01:32:38,160
Speaker 2: to Yeah brag, oh okay, where it was my first

1697
01:32:38,200 --> 01:32:42,000
Speaker 2: sort of encounter with like this press tour feels weird

1698
01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:46,400
Speaker 2: to me that continued. So to be fair, these actors

1699
01:32:46,400 --> 01:32:49,200
Speaker 2: are being confronted on a red carpet, so it's not

1700
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:52,240
Speaker 2: like they've had time to put their thoughts together about

1701
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 2: the reaction. It appears that both actors did not. This

1702
01:32:55,360 --> 01:32:57,439
Speaker 2: is what we're talking about. Julian Moore Natalie Portman was

1703
01:32:57,439 --> 01:32:59,640
Speaker 2: not able to find a Charles Melton reaction, which is

1704
01:32:59,640 --> 01:33:04,400
Speaker 2: what I'm most interested in, But what right? In any case,

1705
01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:07,360
Speaker 2: I do think Charles Milton was robbed for the Golden Globe,

1706
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:10,840
Speaker 2: But in any case, Yeah, So it seems like Julian

1707
01:33:10,840 --> 01:33:12,840
Speaker 2: Moore and Nadelie Portman are learning this for the first

1708
01:33:12,840 --> 01:33:15,440
Speaker 2: time on the Red Carpet, So take that into consideration

1709
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:20,160
Speaker 2: with these quotes. Sure, but Julian Moore says, ah, I'm

1710
01:33:20,280 --> 01:33:23,920
Speaker 2: very sorry that he feels that way. I mean, Todd

1711
01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:25,760
Speaker 2: was always very clear when we were working on this

1712
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:28,600
Speaker 2: movie that this was an original story. This was a

1713
01:33:28,640 --> 01:33:31,360
Speaker 2: story about these characters. So that's how we looked at

1714
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:34,280
Speaker 2: it too. This was our document. We created these characters

1715
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:37,519
Speaker 2: from the page and together quote, I just think this

1716
01:33:37,760 --> 01:33:41,759
Speaker 2: is not true. This is demonstrably untrue. I just listened

1717
01:33:41,800 --> 01:33:44,400
Speaker 2: because why am I mad at Julianne Moore. That's not

1718
01:33:44,439 --> 01:33:47,400
Speaker 2: something I want for myself. But that's like not accurate.

1719
01:33:47,640 --> 01:33:50,920
Speaker 1: It's just false because there are several interviews that happened

1720
01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:54,240
Speaker 1: much earlier that I'm pretty sure Julianne was present for.

1721
01:33:54,320 --> 01:33:56,320
Speaker 1: And even if she wasn't, she I feel like would

1722
01:33:56,320 --> 01:33:59,559
Speaker 1: have been privy to this information. Where screenwriter Sammy Birch

1723
01:34:00,320 --> 01:34:05,360
Speaker 1: specifically referenced the Mary kay Laterno case as being an

1724
01:34:05,360 --> 01:34:08,720
Speaker 1: inspiration and then like, right, you know, Julian Moore and

1725
01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:13,280
Speaker 1: Natalie Portman have both admitted this story was an inspiration

1726
01:34:13,479 --> 01:34:17,040
Speaker 1: but not meant to be a depiction of these real

1727
01:34:17,120 --> 01:34:19,560
Speaker 1: life people. It's just an inspiration.

1728
01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:22,400
Speaker 2: But it just ends up feeling like in this situation,

1729
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:27,080
Speaker 2: I'm most inclined to empathize with Sammy Birch, who has

1730
01:34:27,160 --> 01:34:30,559
Speaker 2: been the most forthcoming. It's her first screenplay. Like, but

1731
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:34,560
Speaker 2: I just I just find this to be incredibly dishonest

1732
01:34:34,800 --> 01:34:38,120
Speaker 2: because she mentioned having watched a lot of merycula, and

1733
01:34:38,160 --> 01:34:40,040
Speaker 2: I do believe that she did. She look at other

1734
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:43,719
Speaker 2: cultural figures. Sure, I guess it is like it presents

1735
01:34:43,760 --> 01:34:46,240
Speaker 2: the question of like, I don't think we've ever talked

1736
01:34:46,280 --> 01:34:50,040
Speaker 2: about it in this context, but like what determines commentary

1737
01:34:50,080 --> 01:34:54,400
Speaker 2: that is transformative? Yeah, for me, this doesn't clear the bar.

1738
01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:58,160
Speaker 2: It feels like and again, we talked about it this movie.

1739
01:34:58,200 --> 01:35:00,960
Speaker 2: I liked a lot of what it had to say,

1740
01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:02,960
Speaker 2: what it was trying to, like the messages it was

1741
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:04,840
Speaker 2: trying to explore it. We've talked about that for two

1742
01:35:04,840 --> 01:35:09,880
Speaker 2: hours at this point, Right, but like it it doesn't

1743
01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:13,400
Speaker 2: clear Okay, Julian Moore continues to say, it was a

1744
01:35:13,479 --> 01:35:16,920
Speaker 2: very challenging part. She's somebody who has transgressed in a

1745
01:35:16,960 --> 01:35:20,920
Speaker 2: major way again evasive language, and I think in order

1746
01:35:20,960 --> 01:35:22,880
Speaker 2: to justify what she's done, she sort of tells a

1747
01:35:22,920 --> 01:35:25,880
Speaker 2: story about her life. There's a lot of I don't know,

1748
01:35:25,920 --> 01:35:28,800
Speaker 2: it's interesting, you know, Natalie's character comes in and these

1749
01:35:28,800 --> 01:35:31,320
Speaker 2: two women are in a struggle for narrative dominance. Who

1750
01:35:31,360 --> 01:35:35,040
Speaker 2: gets to tell this story, Who's right, who's wrong? Unquote. Okay,

1751
01:35:35,200 --> 01:35:39,760
Speaker 2: fair point, but I feel like the reaction to VILLI fulaus.

1752
01:35:40,160 --> 01:35:42,479
Speaker 2: It's just doing the thing again. I find it so

1753
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:46,080
Speaker 2: cutly Natalie Portman reacted like this quote. I'm so sorry

1754
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:49,000
Speaker 2: to hear that. It's not based on them. It's you know,

1755
01:35:49,160 --> 01:35:51,760
Speaker 2: obviously their story influenced the culture that we all grew

1756
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:54,959
Speaker 2: up in and influenced the idea, but it's fictional characters

1757
01:35:55,000 --> 01:35:56,840
Speaker 2: that are really brought to life by Julian Moore and

1758
01:35:56,920 --> 01:35:59,439
Speaker 2: Charles Melton so beautifully, and yet it's its own story.

1759
01:35:59,479 --> 01:36:05,559
Speaker 2: It's not meant to be a biopic unquote. I find

1760
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:08,640
Speaker 2: I don't know. The more I sit with this, I

1761
01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:11,000
Speaker 2: know that everyone, I mean, I can see because there's

1762
01:36:11,040 --> 01:36:14,000
Speaker 2: like critics and friends that I respect and take their

1763
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:17,640
Speaker 2: opinion in stride, But I just like it feels like

1764
01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:22,519
Speaker 2: this press tour is getting away with something that it

1765
01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:24,200
Speaker 2: just really doesn't sit well with me.

1766
01:36:25,120 --> 01:36:28,479
Speaker 1: That in getting away with something that the movie seems

1767
01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:31,280
Speaker 1: to be critical of, which is how the media handles

1768
01:36:32,400 --> 01:36:33,599
Speaker 1: these types of cases.

1769
01:36:34,040 --> 01:36:37,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think both of these sort of stories, the

1770
01:36:37,200 --> 01:36:41,400
Speaker 2: villifulau reaction and then the subsequent reaction. I haven't seen

1771
01:36:41,439 --> 01:36:44,080
Speaker 2: a lot of coverage about it. I've seen repeated and

1772
01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:48,040
Speaker 2: justified praises of Charles Milton's performance. I've seen a lot

1773
01:36:48,120 --> 01:36:51,640
Speaker 2: like there are a few May December press narratives that

1774
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:53,920
Speaker 2: have really endured, you know, in the months since it's

1775
01:36:53,920 --> 01:36:58,960
Speaker 2: come out. It feels yucky to me.

1776
01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:00,360
Speaker 4: Mhmm.

1777
01:37:00,960 --> 01:37:03,880
Speaker 2: And that's future Jamie and Kate.

1778
01:37:04,560 --> 01:37:08,080
Speaker 1: Yes, and now we dismount and return.

1779
01:37:08,320 --> 01:37:15,720
Speaker 2: To the PA. All right, this movie does pass the

1780
01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:20,519
Speaker 2: Backfeld test. It does. It simply does. Yeah, And that's

1781
01:37:20,600 --> 01:37:25,639
Speaker 2: not necessarily super relevant to the conversation that we've had,

1782
01:37:26,439 --> 01:37:28,760
Speaker 2: but true, we always say at the end of the

1783
01:37:28,800 --> 01:37:32,439
Speaker 2: episode whether it does, and it does, and I think

1784
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:34,280
Speaker 2: that's all I really have to say about it.

1785
01:37:34,960 --> 01:37:38,000
Speaker 1: I agree, let's move on though to our nipple scale,

1786
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:42,720
Speaker 1: our scale of zero to five nipples, where we rate

1787
01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:48,559
Speaker 1: the movie examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, and

1788
01:37:49,040 --> 01:37:52,080
Speaker 1: I do appreciate the things that this movie is attempting

1789
01:37:52,120 --> 01:37:56,080
Speaker 1: to say about the topic of child sex abuse and

1790
01:37:56,120 --> 01:38:01,439
Speaker 1: how it's difficult for people to andate, especially if it

1791
01:38:01,520 --> 01:38:05,160
Speaker 1: has been very normalized for you, which for a lot

1792
01:38:05,200 --> 01:38:07,680
Speaker 1: of people it has because of this rape culture we

1793
01:38:07,720 --> 01:38:15,400
Speaker 1: live in, and because of the unchallenged sexualization of underage

1794
01:38:15,479 --> 01:38:20,120
Speaker 1: people that exist to this day and has existed for

1795
01:38:20,880 --> 01:38:26,559
Speaker 1: all of time, that has been normalized, unfortunately, and the

1796
01:38:26,600 --> 01:38:31,120
Speaker 1: movies commenting on that, it is commenting on as a

1797
01:38:31,160 --> 01:38:36,800
Speaker 1: byproduct of that, how media and Hollywood sensationalize stories where

1798
01:38:37,040 --> 01:38:41,479
Speaker 1: child sex abuse has happened. And yet it doesn't, you know,

1799
01:38:41,560 --> 01:38:45,040
Speaker 1: hit the mark all the way because it's still I think,

1800
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:47,600
Speaker 1: you know, we all agree here that it focuses on

1801
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:51,240
Speaker 1: the wrong people. We would have liked to see more

1802
01:38:51,360 --> 01:38:55,160
Speaker 1: about Joe's point of view, the kid's point of view,

1803
01:38:55,320 --> 01:38:59,639
Speaker 1: how they are processing this, how they're dealing with this,

1804
01:39:00,360 --> 01:39:03,719
Speaker 1: all of that stuff. So because of that, I think

1805
01:39:03,720 --> 01:39:07,920
Speaker 1: I'm only gonna give it. I'll give it three nipples.

1806
01:39:08,600 --> 01:39:10,760
Speaker 1: For what it's trying to do but also what it's

1807
01:39:10,800 --> 01:39:17,720
Speaker 1: failing to do. And I will give them two. I'll

1808
01:39:17,720 --> 01:39:22,840
Speaker 1: give one to Charles Melton, I will give one to

1809
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:28,040
Speaker 1: real life person Reilly Vulao, and I will give my

1810
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:35,800
Speaker 1: third nipple to all the Todds of the world. All right,

1811
01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:39,040
Speaker 1: I'll give it to all the hot dogs. At the

1812
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:43,479
Speaker 1: beginning by raw Dog by Jamie Loftus, thank you so much,

1813
01:39:43,760 --> 01:39:44,320
Speaker 1: You're welcome.

1814
01:39:45,040 --> 01:39:47,800
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go right down the middle here, I'm gonna

1815
01:39:47,800 --> 01:39:50,920
Speaker 2: go two and a half nipples. I think, unfortunately it

1816
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:57,280
Speaker 2: is still a big deal in any major release movie

1817
01:39:57,320 --> 01:40:02,599
Speaker 2: to acknowledge that an adult woman can sexually abuse a boy.

1818
01:40:03,240 --> 01:40:06,080
Speaker 2: I hate that is the case, but that you know,

1819
01:40:06,200 --> 01:40:09,960
Speaker 2: up until very recently was not like the way that

1820
01:40:10,000 --> 01:40:13,040
Speaker 2: you describe kids at your school talking about it is

1821
01:40:13,200 --> 01:40:16,000
Speaker 2: clear evidence of that. Like that that is a fairly

1822
01:40:16,160 --> 01:40:19,960
Speaker 2: recent cultural shift that I think that it is like

1823
01:40:20,120 --> 01:40:25,320
Speaker 2: net positive to have a successful movie that unequivocally acknowledges

1824
01:40:25,400 --> 01:40:28,840
Speaker 2: this was abuse. Yeah, having seen a lot of movies

1825
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:31,360
Speaker 2: about this subject, I think this this movie is definitely

1826
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:35,800
Speaker 2: like better than most, but still commits a lot of

1827
01:40:35,840 --> 01:40:38,800
Speaker 2: the same exact problems that we see in movies that

1828
01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:42,720
Speaker 2: really mishandle the subject of child sex abuse, as with

1829
01:40:42,800 --> 01:40:45,040
Speaker 2: a lot of movies, like right when we talk about

1830
01:40:45,080 --> 01:40:47,200
Speaker 2: them after they come out, I feel like we did

1831
01:40:47,240 --> 01:40:49,120
Speaker 2: a good job this time. But sometimes it's just like

1832
01:40:49,200 --> 01:40:51,200
Speaker 2: when a movie just came out and you don't hate it.

1833
01:40:51,439 --> 01:40:54,840
Speaker 2: I feel like you generally give it credit for being

1834
01:40:54,920 --> 01:40:59,880
Speaker 2: more progressive or subversive. Then it actually ends up being

1835
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:02,240
Speaker 2: and you reflect on it down the line.

1836
01:41:02,320 --> 01:41:04,320
Speaker 1: We have done this in the past.

1837
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:07,200
Speaker 2: It's true the things we said about Captain Marvel, I

1838
01:41:07,240 --> 01:41:08,120
Speaker 2: swear to God.

1839
01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:12,599
Speaker 1: And Wonder Woman, like ugh, we were so young.

1840
01:41:13,000 --> 01:41:16,320
Speaker 2: The point is never again. No, I think that, like,

1841
01:41:17,320 --> 01:41:20,840
Speaker 2: I am not unhappy that this movie exists. I find

1842
01:41:20,840 --> 01:41:24,880
Speaker 2: it really frustrating. It's doing certain things well and then

1843
01:41:24,920 --> 01:41:27,680
Speaker 2: it's ignoring a lot of subjects that you would think

1844
01:41:27,720 --> 01:41:30,599
Speaker 2: if it really were like a subversive work, it would

1845
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:34,439
Speaker 2: have more interest in. And also no one movie could

1846
01:41:34,640 --> 01:41:37,639
Speaker 2: you tackle an issue as complicated as child's sex abuse.

1847
01:41:37,680 --> 01:41:39,840
Speaker 2: And I feel like sometimes it's easy to be like, well,

1848
01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:43,640
Speaker 2: I didn't it do everything. It's one movie. Hopefully, like

1849
01:41:43,680 --> 01:41:48,400
Speaker 2: you're saying, Caitlin, this is a step towards being able

1850
01:41:48,439 --> 01:41:50,559
Speaker 2: to tell a story that it seems like all three

1851
01:41:50,600 --> 01:41:54,080
Speaker 2: of us were more interested in And you know, I

1852
01:41:54,200 --> 01:41:56,200
Speaker 2: just think, like in all movies right now, I'm like,

1853
01:41:56,240 --> 01:41:59,920
Speaker 2: I just am like not really particularly interested right now

1854
01:42:00,120 --> 01:42:06,479
Speaker 2: in like narrative movies of like understanding a very evil person.

1855
01:42:07,080 --> 01:42:09,000
Speaker 2: And there's so many like that right now, and I

1856
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:11,160
Speaker 2: think that sometimes they're like, but it's a girl boss

1857
01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:13,960
Speaker 2: that You're like, I don't. It's still not working for me.

1858
01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:19,840
Speaker 2: But anyways, I like Todd Haynes, I love Carol and

1859
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:22,719
Speaker 2: I'm giving this two and a half and I'm giving

1860
01:42:22,760 --> 01:42:23,839
Speaker 2: it all to the hot dogs.

1861
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:26,920
Speaker 1: Nice, Yeah, Karen, how about you?

1862
01:42:27,280 --> 01:42:28,960
Speaker 4: I'd like to actually rate this on a scale of

1863
01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:30,519
Speaker 4: hot dogs as a post to nipples.

1864
01:42:30,520 --> 01:42:33,240
Speaker 2: If that's cool, fine, Yeah, as as you're right.

1865
01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:36,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'd like to give it. I mean, I

1866
01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:40,000
Speaker 4: see this movie as beginning and ending for me. When

1867
01:42:40,040 --> 01:42:43,479
Speaker 4: I looked at that grill and I saw those hot

1868
01:42:43,479 --> 01:42:46,080
Speaker 4: dogs on the grill, and I think that Jamie really

1869
01:42:46,120 --> 01:42:49,240
Speaker 4: said this best. There's not enough people to eat all

1870
01:42:49,240 --> 01:42:50,040
Speaker 4: these hot dogs.

1871
01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:52,000
Speaker 2: It makes you think were.

1872
01:42:51,800 --> 01:42:54,120
Speaker 4: They going to sell them to Costco afterwards? Yeah? It

1873
01:42:54,120 --> 01:42:59,000
Speaker 4: makes you think. And I think the enigma of that moment,

1874
01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:03,759
Speaker 4: you know, is a metaphor for the enigma of everything

1875
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:06,360
Speaker 4: we've spoken about today. So you may not give this

1876
01:43:06,400 --> 01:43:08,720
Speaker 4: movie a lot of nipples, but I will give this

1877
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:10,240
Speaker 4: movie forty hot dogs.

1878
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:13,479
Speaker 1: Of course, amazing out of how many is the max number?

1879
01:43:14,040 --> 01:43:15,759
Speaker 4: I'm not so sure.

1880
01:43:16,080 --> 01:43:17,320
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, that's fair.

1881
01:43:17,400 --> 01:43:19,240
Speaker 2: I'm just happy to be with you on this journey.

1882
01:43:21,280 --> 01:43:23,200
Speaker 4: You're like, what is the maximum number of pot dogs?

1883
01:43:23,200 --> 01:43:24,280
Speaker 4: It's difficult to say.

1884
01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:27,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so true, that's so true.

1885
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:30,280
Speaker 4: I feel like we'd have to go back and rewatch

1886
01:43:30,320 --> 01:43:31,920
Speaker 4: the movie, and I don't think that's something any of

1887
01:43:31,960 --> 01:43:32,880
Speaker 4: us are gonna do.

1888
01:43:33,680 --> 01:43:34,439
Speaker 3: Not I.

1889
01:43:35,160 --> 01:43:42,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, it's been a delight to have you, Karen.

1890
01:43:42,120 --> 01:43:45,839
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on for this truly

1891
01:43:46,160 --> 01:43:49,800
Speaker 2: like challenging episode. I mean, it feels weird to be like,

1892
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:51,360
Speaker 2: I had a great time, but I thought this is

1893
01:43:51,360 --> 01:43:55,000
Speaker 2: a great discussion. Thank you for We just covered Shrek four,

1894
01:43:55,160 --> 01:43:57,720
Speaker 2: so we're pretty you know, like the discourse has just

1895
01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:00,080
Speaker 2: been all over the place this month, on the Pods.

1896
01:44:00,120 --> 01:44:03,800
Speaker 4: The Donkey Man, love him exactly, exactly.

1897
01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:07,040
Speaker 1: Where can people check out your stuff, follow you online,

1898
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:07,759
Speaker 1: et cetera.

1899
01:44:08,160 --> 01:44:11,640
Speaker 4: I'm on the internet at shit from Kieran Shit like

1900
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:14,479
Speaker 4: the poop that comes out of your butthole, how foor

1901
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:16,639
Speaker 4: gets delivered to you in the mail if you are

1902
01:44:16,920 --> 01:44:20,599
Speaker 4: a character in May December, just shit from Kieran on

1903
01:44:20,680 --> 01:44:23,439
Speaker 4: all the platforms on the internet. Forgive me Internet, and

1904
01:44:23,640 --> 01:44:27,280
Speaker 4: dear listeners and intergalactic listeners. I did come up with

1905
01:44:27,320 --> 01:44:30,280
Speaker 4: that a long time ago, and it was foolish of me,

1906
01:44:30,400 --> 01:44:30,960
Speaker 4: and it's too.

1907
01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:32,000
Speaker 2: Late to change it.

1908
01:44:32,240 --> 01:44:33,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry about that.

1909
01:44:33,680 --> 01:44:36,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was I did it to myself. I was like, oh,

1910
01:44:36,479 --> 01:44:39,080
Speaker 4: this is flippant, but that was ump. That was dumb

1911
01:44:39,160 --> 01:44:41,880
Speaker 4: and I have regrets. And here we are.

1912
01:44:42,280 --> 01:44:47,559
Speaker 1: And be sure everyone to watch Destroy All Neighbors, starring Kieran.

1913
01:44:48,320 --> 01:44:50,840
Speaker 4: No, it's not starring me. It's starring Jonah Jonah Ray

1914
01:44:51,040 --> 01:44:54,640
Speaker 4: You're and Alex Winter from.

1915
01:44:54,200 --> 01:44:57,160
Speaker 1: Oh Bill and Ted right, Yeah.

1916
01:44:56,640 --> 01:44:59,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, very nice, gentlemen. And it's a little horror comedy

1917
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:05,320
Speaker 4: and it'll come out on January twelfth, and you guys

1918
01:45:05,320 --> 01:45:07,960
Speaker 4: will have to review that movie, not with me, and

1919
01:45:08,040 --> 01:45:10,200
Speaker 4: see if that passes the Bechdel test.

1920
01:45:10,640 --> 01:45:13,000
Speaker 1: Will it's on the top of our list.

1921
01:45:14,680 --> 01:45:17,880
Speaker 4: I won't be listening to that episode, just so you know.

1922
01:45:18,200 --> 01:45:20,080
Speaker 4: And I don't want to know how many nipples or

1923
01:45:20,120 --> 01:45:25,080
Speaker 4: hot dogs it gets because of my deep sensitive no whatever,

1924
01:45:25,200 --> 01:45:26,559
Speaker 4: it's a fun horror comedy.

1925
01:45:26,960 --> 01:45:30,840
Speaker 1: Hell yah nice, Well, thanks again for coming on the show.

1926
01:45:31,280 --> 01:45:36,400
Speaker 1: You can check us out at Bechdel Cast on Instagram

1927
01:45:36,880 --> 01:45:41,519
Speaker 1: and Twitter slash x bla, as well as our Patreon

1928
01:45:42,320 --> 01:45:48,080
Speaker 1: at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast. Become a matron yes,

1929
01:45:48,080 --> 01:45:51,160
Speaker 1: and you'll get access to two bonus episodes every month,

1930
01:45:51,240 --> 01:45:55,840
Speaker 1: plus the entire back catalog. Also check out our link

1931
01:45:55,920 --> 01:46:00,480
Speaker 1: tree for tickets to our upcoming tour in early February.

1932
01:46:00,680 --> 01:46:04,200
Speaker 1: We're going to cities in California and Texas.

1933
01:46:04,439 --> 01:46:07,680
Speaker 2: Why because we've felt like it. That's just how it

1934
01:46:07,840 --> 01:46:08,320
Speaker 2: ended up.

1935
01:46:08,520 --> 01:46:09,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1936
01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:11,640
Speaker 2: And then you can also get our merch at teapublic

1937
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:18,640
Speaker 2: dot com slash v Bechdel Cast. And with that, let's

1938
01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:22,880
Speaker 2: have a hot dog? Is that the song I kind

1939
01:46:22,880 --> 01:46:31,280
Speaker 2: of forget? Bye Bye Bye Bye.

1940
01:46:31,320 --> 01:46:34,559
Speaker 1: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

1941
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:38,519
Speaker 1: Caitlin Derante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1942
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:41,800
Speaker 1: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike

1943
01:46:41,920 --> 01:46:46,280
Speaker 1: Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Volskrosenski. Our logo in merch

1944
01:46:46,439 --> 01:46:49,400
Speaker 1: is designed by Jamie Loftis, and a special thanks to

1945
01:46:49,439 --> 01:46:53,800
Speaker 1: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

1946
01:46:53,920 --> 01:46:55,920
Speaker 1: Linktree Slash Bechdel Cast