1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosse from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: The new head of the Justice Department Civil Rights Division 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 2: is upending the mission of the division, which traditionally has 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 2: been to protect Americans against discrimination based on race, color, religion, sets, 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 2: and national origin. Harmeit Dillon has abandoned landmark civil rights 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: settlements and has changed the division's focus to combating anti semitism, 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 2: rooting out anti Christian bias, fighting diversity initiatives, and protecting 8 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: gun rights. It's led to a mass exodus of attorneys 9 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 2: from the division. In an interview with conservative commentator Glenn Beck, 10 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: Dylan said that more than one hundred division attorneys out 11 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 2: of three hundred and eighty have already said they'll leave. 12 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 3: I think that's fine, because we don't want people in 13 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 3: the federal government who feel like it's their pet project 14 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 3: to go personute police departments based on statistical evidence, or 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 3: persecute people praying outside abortion facilities instead of doing violence. 16 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 3: That's not the job here. The job here is to 17 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 3: enforce the federal civil rights laws, not woke ideology. 18 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 2: Joining Me is Bloomberg Law, reporter Suzanne Mognac start by 19 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 2: telling us about the history of this division and its purpose. 20 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 4: The Civil Rights Division is part of the Justice Department 21 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 4: that was created in nineteen fifty seven as part of 22 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 4: the Civil Rights Act that year, and it was really 23 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 4: originally at its time intended to protect the right to vote. 24 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 4: This is a big problem in SOLF at the time 25 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 4: with protecting black residents from being blocked from the polls, 26 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 4: and that was sort of the original mission of the unit. Obviously, 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 4: now it's expanded and it enforces all of the civil 28 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 4: rights laws that protect people from being discriminated against based 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 4: on their sex, their gender, disability, religion, etc. 30 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: Are they dropping any existing litigation or settlements by the 31 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: prior administration? 32 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 5: Are they dropping anything? 33 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 4: Quite a lot, Yes, they're dropping a lot. We've seen 34 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 4: withdrawals of consent decrees and just you know, removing themselves 35 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 4: from pending litigation. In a lot of different areas that 36 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 4: the Biden era Civil Rights Division had handled, One notable 37 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 4: one that got quite a lot of traction was an 38 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 4: environmental case actually that had been focused on sewage issues 39 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 4: in Black Delta and Alabama, where residents have been found 40 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 4: to have been discriminated against by their county because they 41 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 4: didn't have proper sewage systems, and it had created a 42 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 4: health risk for residents in those communities, and that was 43 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 4: something that the Trump administrations decided to withdraw from that settlement. 44 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 4: And so we've really just seen a lot of withdrawals 45 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 4: of settlements but just don't align with what the Trump 46 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 4: administration's missions are when it comes to the types of 47 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 4: civil rights that they're interested in enforcing. 48 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 2: In that Alabama case, the settlement had already been reached, right, 49 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 2: that's correct, So now what is the general new mission statement? 50 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 4: The Justice Department had actually sent out new mission statements 51 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 4: for the civil rights divisions different sections. To take it broadly, 52 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 4: a lot of the common threads that we saw throughout 53 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 4: the new section mission statements were a focus on anti semitism, 54 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 4: really specifically on college campuses, but focus on protecting women 55 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 4: from quote unquote gender ideology, and really specifically what that 56 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 4: is is preventing transgender women from participating in women's sports. 57 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 4: And we're also seeing just a focus on opposing DEI 58 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 4: and that's obviously an issue that we've seen kind of 59 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 4: throughout the new Trump administration. Diversity equity and inclusion efforts 60 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 4: that we might see in universities or elsewhere. 61 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 2: Like the Housing and Civil Enforcement section, What did they 62 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: do and what are they now going to do? 63 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 4: So Housing and Civil Enforcement primarily would take on the 64 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 4: Fair Housing Act, which is a civil rights statue that 65 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 4: prevents discrimination and housing. So, for example, refusing to rent 66 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 4: an apartment to somebody because of their race would be 67 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 4: a classic example of housing discrimination that they would go after. 68 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 4: What we saw in the new Mission statement was actually 69 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 4: no made of the Fairhousing Act, and I think that 70 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 4: was something that was significant for people following was that 71 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 4: landmark civil rights law in housing is not even mentioned 72 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 4: as a priority, and it's misinstatement. And said, I think 73 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 4: what we're going to see a lot of from this 74 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 4: section is religious land use issues, so churches who want 75 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 4: to get a permit or something for a certain amount 76 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 4: of land and that they're claiming that they're being discriminated against, 77 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 4: which has always been a mission of that section, to 78 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 4: be clear, But I think we're going to see more 79 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 4: of a focus on religious institutions in helping discrimination really, 80 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 4: particularly probably Christian institutions, since anti Christian bias is actually 81 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 4: another tenant that we've seen kind of throughout the different 82 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 4: sections as a core mission for this division. 83 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 2: But the division has always handled cases involving anti Christian bias. 84 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 4: Anti Christian bias with any religious bias has always been 85 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 4: within the mandate of Civil Rights Division, and absolutely in 86 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 4: instances of anti Christian bias in the past, we would 87 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 4: have seen prior administrations take those on. What I heard 88 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 4: from a lot of former Justice Department officials who came 89 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 4: from this division was that the New Times administration was 90 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 4: somewhat of an outcome oriented approach when it comes to 91 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 4: these issues. So I spoke to one former division official 92 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 4: who told me that when they wanted to take a 93 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 4: look at religious discrimination issues, they didn't start with a religion. 94 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 4: They went around the country and talk to different communities 95 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 4: to try to learn which religions they felt had been 96 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 4: most affected at the time. This was during the Obama administration. 97 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 4: He said. The research said them that Islamophobia was actually 98 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 4: one of the most significant religious discrimination issues at that time. 99 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 4: And so I've been Anti Christian Bias task Force for example, 100 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 4: it was something that had happened recently. It shows that 101 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 4: they're really interested in probing anti Christian bias, but it 102 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 4: doesn't necessarily say that that is the most prevalent iss 103 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 4: you have religious discrimination. So of course you know, I 104 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 4: haven't done this market research as a reporter, I could 105 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 4: not tell you, you know, exactly why that anti Christian bias 106 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 4: stacks up against other religions. People can maybe take a 107 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 4: guest to face on their own communities that which they're 108 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 4: seeing the most of. But I just think it sort 109 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 4: of says something that they're starting with that I'm starting 110 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 4: with anti Christians as opposed to, you know, maybe taking 111 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 4: a broader look and seeing where were the problems are. 112 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 4: And I think that's some criticism that former Justice Department 113 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 4: officials have had as they take a look at this, 114 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 4: that perhaps they're going in with an ideology that they're 115 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 4: wanting to play out as opposed to going in with 116 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 4: a problem and seeing where it is. 117 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: There's also the Educational Opportunities Section, which used to ensure 118 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 2: that educational facilities are not discriminating against minorities. 119 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,239 Speaker 5: What is its mission now? 120 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 4: So a huge part of what I think the new 121 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 4: mission will be on the Educational Opportunity section is going 122 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 4: to be a lot of transgender athletes and sports, and 123 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 4: anti semitism on college campuses. These are issues for the 124 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 4: Trump administration. More broadly, we've seen the Department of Education 125 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 4: initiating investigations or sending letters to universities regarding investigations into 126 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 4: anti Semitism on college campuses. Justice Department has opened one 127 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 4: into the University of California on this issue for example. Obviously, 128 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 4: we've seen this crack down very broadly. I mean, the 129 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 4: State's Department has revoked visas from students who were involved 130 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 4: in protests against the Israel Homos war. And that's a 131 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 4: broad priority for the administration, and I think it's really 132 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 4: going to play out in this Educational Opportunities section of 133 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 4: the Civil Rights Division when it comes to seeing it 134 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 4: as a religious discrimination issue. And then of course the 135 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 4: transgender issue I think will also be a big one 136 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 4: for that division. With college sports, there's been a lot 137 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 4: of pushback on the right on the idea of transgender 138 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 4: women participating in women's sports is being unfair to non 139 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 4: transgender women, and so I think that's an issue that 140 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 4: we can expect this division and in the Education section 141 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 4: to really be taking on. 142 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: And then the Special Litigation Section, what did that do 143 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: and what does it do now? 144 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 4: So the Special Litigation Section does take on a lot. 145 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 4: They have a fairly broad mandate. Some of the cases 146 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 4: that we've seen them do in the past are police 147 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 4: brutality cases, cases for people who are incarcerated. We've also 148 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 4: seen them take on space SAX cases, which are free 149 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 4: to have access to clinic entrances. And so this is 150 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 4: for example, would be protesters blocking people from entering abortion 151 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 4: clinics for example. We certainly are not going to expect 152 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 4: to see a law of enforcement of Face Act on 153 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 4: abortion protesters for life protesters outside of clinics. Specifically, in 154 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 4: the new mission statements, they indicated that they do not 155 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 4: want to see disparate treatment of pro life protesters, prayer 156 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 4: visuals outside of abortion clinics, et cetera. That's something we've 157 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 4: heard the political appointee Harmet Dillon has ever seen the division. 158 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 4: That's something we've heard her say. So I think that's 159 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 4: something we're going to see a lot less of. One 160 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 4: investigation that we've seen from the special Litigation section that's 161 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 4: very new, I'm told for this division is actually one 162 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 4: into gun rights. We've seen that section take on the 163 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 4: Los Angeles Sheriff's Department on processing delays with concealed carry 164 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 4: permits and whether that's an issue of discrimination. And so, 165 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 4: while you know this is still within the broad mission 166 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 4: of the Special Litigation Section. We haven't really seen civil 167 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 4: rights be used for gun rights. So that's just kind 168 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 4: of a new, I guess interpretation of the dissection's mandate, 169 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 4: but also part of the Trump administration's broader mission. Like 170 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 4: they've made clear that Second Amendment right to bear arms 171 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 4: is an important one for them. 172 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 2: So, I mean, you have the Civil Rights Division litigating 173 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:11,239 Speaker 2: basically against transgender women, litigating about delays in processing gun permits. 174 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: One employee you talked, you said, they're demolishing the Civil 175 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 2: Rights Division and repurposing it for something it's not meant 176 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: to do. Are they basically abandoning almost everything the Civil 177 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: Rights Division was known for, like you know, police brutality 178 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: cases or discrimination against minorities. It seems like it's just 179 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 2: a totally different focus. 180 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 4: It does appear though, that may be the direction that's going. 181 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,599 Speaker 4: I think racial discrimination cases in particular, it seem like 182 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 4: they're going to be deprioritized as something I'm really hearing 183 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 4: across the board, and we've seen it in action. We've 184 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 4: seen them withdraw settlements in racial discrimination cases. One of 185 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 4: the first things that we saw this division do a 186 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 4: few months ago was to withdraw settlements in racial discrimination 187 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 4: cases against police departments regarding incidents past, and so I 188 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 4: think sure that racial discrimination is going to be a 189 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 4: lower priority for this division, and we're going to see 190 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 4: more focus on the issues that we talked about on 191 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 4: anti Semitism, anti transgender and I DEI. And yes, that 192 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 4: is a radical departure, I'm told from what that division 193 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 4: has been doing in the past. And so what we're 194 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 4: seeing out of that is just like widespread exodus of 195 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 4: career officials who have devoted their lives and careers to 196 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 4: civil rights enforcement, who just really don't see the current 197 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 4: mission as in line with their values and how they 198 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 4: see civil rights enforcement and how it should be. 199 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 2: And how many division attorneys have said they're leaving. 200 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 4: We're still waiting on those exact final numbers. Employees had 201 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 4: until April twenty eighth to let the division leaders know 202 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 4: if they wanted to take the differred resignation offers. This 203 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 4: was the second offer, second opportunity they had to take 204 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 4: somewhat of a buyout where they could go on leave 205 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 4: for a few months and then formally separate in the fall. 206 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 4: So we're still remains to be seen on exactly the 207 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 4: damage that's going to be done. But Harmie Dillon went 208 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 4: on a podcast over the weekend and said she expected 209 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 4: over a hundred attorneys out of that three hundred something 210 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 4: attorney section to leave, which is significant, And obviously you 211 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 4: know there's still a couple of days for people to 212 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 4: get those requests in. Maybe not all have been approved. 213 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 4: I think it's very possible, maybe even likely from what 214 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 4: I'm hearing that it may be well over one hundred employees. 215 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 4: I think half is absolutely within the realm of possibility. 216 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: Are these career attorneys resigning themselves or are they being 217 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 2: pushed out? 218 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 4: It's a mix. We saw a flu of reassignments, quite 219 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 4: a few section chiefs, section deputy chiefs of the various 220 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 4: section we've talked about who were reassigned to complaint education 221 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 4: or FOYA offices, which we're seen as a lower tier 222 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 4: of work. I think for a lot of those people, 223 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 4: and that certainly with an effort to push them out 224 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 4: by reassigning them to something different that they didn't sign 225 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 4: up to do. I think a lot of these people 226 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 4: are going to see the writing on the wall and 227 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 4: take the deferred resignation offer. And some of those people 228 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 4: who take the deferred resignation, weren't reassigned. They just maybe 229 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 4: see what the division is doing and it's not what 230 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 4: they want to be doing, so they've decided best to 231 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 4: go take the out now. So it's sort of a mix, 232 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 4: and we've seen that across the board of the Justice Department. 233 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 4: That will see some leaders be given a reassignment that's 234 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 4: maybe seen as less appealing. And when sometimes I think 235 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 4: when somebody's boss or longtime manager is reassigned or decides 236 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 4: to leave, they can create a morale issue below them, 237 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 4: and a lot of the people who maybe work under 238 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 4: them and have really respected their work might fee less 239 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 4: inclined to stay. 240 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 2: I found your story really eye opening, Suzanne, thanks so 241 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 2: much for joining me tonight. That's Bloomberg Law reporter Suzanne Monnac. 242 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 2: The American legal system is being tested during President Donald 243 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 2: Trump's first one hundred days in office and unprecedented blits 244 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 2: of lawsuits filed against the administration's policies more than two 245 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: hundred lawsuits in courts across the country over just about 246 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: every aspect of his agenda, from spending to immigration to 247 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: firing of federal workers and government officials. Trump has complained 248 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 2: about the judges who are keeping him from carrying out 249 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 2: his agenda. Here in an interview with ABC News yesterday, 250 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 2: we have to be treated fairly by judges, and we're 251 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: not being treated fairly by all judges. Critics say the 252 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 2: Trump administration has not been following all court orders, and 253 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,239 Speaker 2: a Supreme Court showdown over the president's powers appears inevitable. 254 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: Joining me is Dave Ehrenberg, former Palm Beach County state attorney. 255 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 5: Dave Trump is. 256 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 2: Averaging about two lawsuits filed against his administration for every 257 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: day he's been in office. That's unprecedented. 258 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 6: This is because President Trump has decided to govern by 259 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 6: executive order as opposed to do the normal thing of 260 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 6: going to Congress and getting your agenda adopted. So for 261 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 6: people who think he's acting like a king, perhaps, but 262 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 6: I think it's a sign of weakness that he can't 263 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 6: act like a president and get your agenda through the 264 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 6: legislative branch. FDR did. And the reason why Trump is 265 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 6: doing this is because he's got a razor thin majority 266 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 6: of Republicans in the House, knowing that it would be 267 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 6: really difficult to pass on this very controversial legislation through 268 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 6: and the filibuster in the Senate would block his legislation 269 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 6: as well, So he is trying to go over the 270 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 6: heads of Congress, and he's being assisted by the fact 271 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 6: that Congress has advocated its role as a separate, coequal 272 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 6: branch of government. So it's up to the judiciary to 273 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 6: stand firm and to provide the checks and balances that 274 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 6: a democracy requires, and so far they have, they have 275 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 6: provided the guardrails. So that's why you're seeing so many lawsuits. 276 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 6: That's why you're seeing so many laws in court for Trump. 277 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 6: That would change if he decided to govern through legislation 278 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 6: rather than executive order, but there's no sign he's going 279 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 6: to stop. 280 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: There are cases in all different areas. There is you know, 281 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 2: government spending and DEI policies and all kinds of things. 282 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: The cases that have gotten the most attention are the 283 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 2: immigration cases. 284 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 5: Why do you think there is so many cases in 285 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 5: that area? 286 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: I mean, is it because they're testing how far they can. 287 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 6: Go to his top priority? So immigration is the most 288 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 6: important issue for him, and he knows that's the reason 289 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 6: why he got elected. So he got elected for two reasons. 290 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 6: Inflation in the southern border, immigration, and so far he 291 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 6: has not been able to lower prices because the president 292 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 6: has very little to do with inflation, although his positive 293 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 6: caused increase in prices through tariffs. So he's relying instead 294 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 6: on the southern border and immigration, and so he's been 295 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 6: extra aggressive on that issue because that's his bread and butter. 296 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 6: But in so doing he is running a foul of 297 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 6: due process because the president is not a king. And 298 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 6: even though this obscure Alien Enemies Act from the eighteenth 299 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 6: century exists, it is rarely invoked, and when it is invoked, 300 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 6: it doesn't give the present unilateral authority to deport anyone 301 00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 6: without due process. And the courts are reminding him of that. Now, Trump, 302 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 6: instead of just abiding by court rulings, is trying to 303 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 6: evade them. Importantly, he has not said that he has 304 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 6: openly defined court rulings, and I think that's important. That's 305 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 6: why I don't believe we're in a constitutional crisis. Yet 306 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 6: the day that he says I'm going to defy the 307 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 6: court's rulings, that's when it's coo, that's when we have 308 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 6: a constitutional crisis. But that day hasn't come yet. He's 309 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 6: paying lip service to it. He's saying he's abiding by 310 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 6: court rulings even though he's playing games with him. But 311 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 6: still the fact that he is saying he respects the 312 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 6: Supreme Court and will abide by the rulings does mean something. 313 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and Trump did say that he follows the laws 314 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 2: again today in the Oval Office when he was asked 315 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 2: about the case of the marilynd Man Kilmar Arbrego Garcia, 316 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 2: who was mistakenly deported to l Salvador. 317 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 5: I don't know. 318 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 6: I haven't spoken to him. 319 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: I really leave that to the lawyers, and I take 320 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: my advice from Pam and everybody that has very much involved. 321 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: They know the laws, and we followed the laws exactly. 322 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 2: One of the first judges that Trump has all doubt 323 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: is the chief judge in the DC Courts, Judge James Boseburg, 324 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: and he's the one that oversaw that high profile challenge 325 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: to the deportation flights of Venezuelans to El Salvador. Trump 326 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: has called him highly conflicted, a troublemaker and agitator, a 327 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: grand standard, and even a radical left lunatic. He's used 328 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: some of those similar names against judges who were in 329 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 2: charge of the cases. The criminal case is against him. 330 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 2: What does it do to have though the President calling 331 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 2: judges a radical left lunatic and calling for their impeachment. 332 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 6: Well, it got the admonition from Chief Justice Roberts. Chief 333 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 6: Office Roberts rarely speaks out on stuff like this, but 334 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 6: he did saying that if you disagree with the judges ruling, 335 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 6: the recourse is not to try to impeace the judge, 336 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 6: and by implication, not to bass the judge, but to 337 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 6: appeal the judge. And that meant something because because Trump 338 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 6: knows that his bread is buttered by the Supreme Court, 339 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 6: that's who gave him unprecedented immunity. That's a big reason 340 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 6: why he was elected. He was able to avoid criminal 341 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 6: trial during the campaign, So he owes the Supreme Court 342 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 6: a lot, and that's why he didn't push back when 343 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 6: Chief Justice Roberts scolded him. So, although it is a 344 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 6: very maga thing to bash judges, you haven't seen it 345 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 6: as vitriolic as it seemed to go. Right now, it 346 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 6: seems like the rhetoric has died off a little bit, 347 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 6: and I think that's because Chief Justice Roberts had to 348 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 6: step in and remind Trump that he is out of line. 349 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 6: And Trump, who's purely transactional, does not want to upset 350 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 6: the Chief Justice of the most important court in the land. 351 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: So Judge Bosberg, actually two judges are investigating whether the 352 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 2: Trump administration defied their orders. As you say, Trump repeatedly 353 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 2: says he always obeys court orders. 354 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 5: But when the government. 355 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 2: Flew those Venezuelans to El Salvador, Judge Boseburg paused the 356 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 2: deportations and told the government to turn the planes around. 357 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 2: He ruled on April sixteenth that the government demonstrated a 358 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 2: willful disregard for his order for not turning the flights 359 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 2: or ordering their return from l Salvador, and that none 360 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 2: of their responses have been satisfactory. So Judge Bosburg could 361 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 2: be on the way to finding someone in the Trump 362 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 2: administration in contempt. 363 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 6: Could be. So far, no one has been found in 364 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 6: the content. But what has happened is that the US 365 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 6: Supreme Court, in extraordinary ruling on a Saturday at one am, 366 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 6: came in and put the kebash on Trump's deportations of 367 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 6: Venezuelans to El Salvador. And that was even though the 368 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 6: case really hadn't come to the Supreme Court, and the 369 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 6: Supreme Court stepped in without really clear jurisdiction, even though 370 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 6: the appellate court, the lower Court, the Circuit had not 371 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 6: even ruled, So that to me showed that the Supreme 372 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 6: Court isn't messing around, that they actually believed that Trump 373 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 6: was going to violate Bozburg's order, that Trump was dumbing 374 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 6: his nose at the judiciary, and so they had to 375 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 6: step in. And so Trump is at risk of losing 376 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,959 Speaker 6: the Supreme Court he needs so badly because he's Tustas 377 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 6: Roberts and amy Cony Barrett are the two most important justices, 378 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 6: and in that Saturday one am ruling, it was not 379 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 6: only they who ruled to halt the deportations, but also 380 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 6: Kavanaugh and Corse. It so all three justices appointed by 381 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 6: Trump ruled against the Trump administration. And so that's why 382 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 6: it's more than just holding Trump in contempt in his 383 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 6: administration and contempt. It's also actions like we saw at 384 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 6: one am on Saturday by the Supreme Court that shows 385 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 6: that the courts are pushing back. 386 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 2: Let's just say Judge Bozburg finds a Trump administration official 387 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 2: in contempt, I mean, what would really happen? Couldn't Trump 388 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: pardon anyone charged with contempt? 389 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 6: Yes, criminal contempt. Trump could step in, but he can 390 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 6: also just disregard the court's order. I mean, the court's 391 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 6: orders are enforced by the Martial Service, and the martial 392 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 6: Service is under the executive branch, and so be up 393 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 6: to the Department of Justice to go along, and you 394 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 6: have to believe that they won't. Now, there are some 395 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 6: rare cases where the court could appoint like a local 396 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 6: sheriff to round someone up, but I think that's not 397 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 6: going to happen. Could Trump step in and mess around 398 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 6: with it, Yes, that's a federal crime. He could pardon someone. 399 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 6: But really the big stick that the court holds is 400 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 6: really in the court of public opinion. The public overwhelming 401 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 6: opposes disobeying court rulings. They don't want to see the 402 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 6: executive branch disobeying the court ruling. And now we'll hurt 403 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 6: Trump in the court of public opinion. Plus, as I mentioned, 404 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 6: the Supreme Court could come in and just say no, 405 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 6: no more, We're going to stop all your deportations for now. 406 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 6: Even if we don't have jurisdiction, we're going to step in. 407 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 6: So that's a punishment itself. Now if we go down 408 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 6: further and say, well, what if Trump just says that 409 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 6: now we're going to defy the Supreme Court, Well, that's 410 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 6: the conserttional crisis, that's the coup, and I don't think 411 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 6: the public would tolerate that. 412 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 2: Yes, an overwhelming majority of Americans believe the Trump administration 413 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: should follow court orders. According to a poll from Pew 414 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 2: Research that came out last week. Most Americans seventy eight 415 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 2: percent say the Trump administration has to follow lower court orders, 416 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 2: and eighty eight percent say the administration has to follow 417 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 2: Supreme Court rulings. 418 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 5: And Dave, what do you. 419 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 2: Think about the Attorney General Pam Bondi making frequent appearances 420 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 2: on Fox criticizing court orders and judges. I've never seen 421 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: an AG behave like that, you know, I have. 422 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 6: Been surprised at the dialogue coming from DOJ. I've never 423 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 6: seen an attorney general on the cable news shows like that. 424 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 6: But there's nothing that says you can't. This is the 425 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 6: Trump administration norms. So although we've never seen it before, 426 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 6: there's nothing illegal about it. It's just something that we're 427 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 6: not used to. And even though I know her very well, 428 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 6: she and I have different political views, and I always 429 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 6: knew I'd be disagreeing with a lot of the things 430 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 6: that she was going to do. But as far as 431 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 6: whether this is just wrong for her to go on 432 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 6: to me. Now, no, I mean, she's taken a very 433 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 6: transparent way to talk about things in front of millions 434 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 6: of people, But the dialogue that comes out of it 435 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 6: is very partisan. It's very pro Trump. But the voters 436 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 6: chose a Trump loyalist who be attorney general when they 437 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 6: voted for Trump. The other alternative was Kamala Harris, who 438 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 6: ran on in part the independence of the attorney general 439 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 6: and the independence of the judiciary, and she lost. And 440 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 6: so elections have consequences, and that's the reason why we 441 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 6: shouldn't be too surprised to see Trump's attorney general on 442 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 6: Fox News and serving essentially as the president's lawyer. He 443 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 6: campaigned on that. He said he wanted that I could 444 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 6: have been a lot worse. You could have had Matt Gates, 445 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 6: who I believe would have locked up Donald Trump's political 446 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 6: enemies for political purposes. 447 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 2: Talk about stress on the system. Coming up next, the 448 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 2: deportation case that won't go away. This is bloomberg. One 449 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 2: legal battle against the Trump administration seems to have eclipsed 450 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 2: the others. The wrongful deportation of kilmore Arbrigo Garcia to 451 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 2: l Salvador. The Trump administration has said in the past 452 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: that they have no power or plans to bring Garcia back, 453 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 2: but according to several reports, Secretary of State Marco Rubio 454 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 2: has been in touch with l Salvador's president about Garcia. However, 455 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 2: during a cabinet meeting today, Rubio refused to discuss whether 456 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: there's been any such contact. 457 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: Well, I will never tell you that, and you know 458 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: who also, I'll never tell any judge because the conduct 459 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: of our foreign policy belongs to the President of the 460 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 1: United States and the executive branch, not some judge. So 461 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: we will conduct foreign policy appropriately if we need to. 462 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 5: But I'll never. 463 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: Discussing, and no one will over her to make us discussing. 464 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: That's how foreign policy works. 465 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 2: I've been talking to Dave Ehrenberg, former Palm Beach County 466 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: State Attorney. Dave. 467 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 5: The judge had. 468 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: A demand for the government to share evidence about Garcia. 469 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 2: She put that off until April thirtieth because it seems 470 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 2: like the government may be coming around on that. 471 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 6: So that case is still muddled because you have the 472 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 6: US President and the Secretary of State and the Attorney 473 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 6: General saying that it's out of our hands. It's up 474 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 6: to the president ofl Salvador. But it's clear that if 475 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 6: Trump wanted a Bregio Garcia back, he would be on 476 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 6: the next plane back in first class if that was 477 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 6: their request. After all, the Trump administration in the United 478 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 6: States government is paying for his incarceration. We're paying for 479 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 6: El Salvador keeping these individuals behind bars. And Christy Nome, 480 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 6: the Secretary of Department of Homeland Security, said that El 481 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 6: Salvador's prison is a in our toolbox. Well, if it's 482 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 6: one of our tools, you can use those tools and 483 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 6: you can use it to fix things. So I think 484 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 6: ultimately the courts are going to have to get a 485 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 6: little more specific about pushing the United States government to 486 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 6: get Abrego Garcia back. The Supreme Court softened the language 487 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 6: of the district court and said, instead of effectuating his return, 488 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 6: they need to facilitate it. Facilitate is not as strong 489 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 6: of a word as effectuating it. So the Supreme Court 490 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 6: tried to get everyone together unanimously, which it did nine 491 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 6: zero ruling saying kumbaya and say, okay, can we all 492 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 6: at least live with the facilitating language. But that relies 493 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 6: on the good faith of the Trump ministration. So when 494 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 6: the Trump administration says, yeah, facilitate means we'll send a 495 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 6: plane if the presidentl Salvador deports him, and he's not 496 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 6: going to do so, so what are we going to do? 497 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 6: That's not good enough for the Supreme Court. That is 498 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 6: a reason I believe the Supreme Court stepped in in 499 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 6: this extraordinary Saturday one am ruling. This was their way 500 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 6: to say, we don't trust you anymore. So the ball 501 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 6: is going to be in the trumpdministration's court, and Judge 502 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 6: Zinnis is also getting impatient. 503 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 2: Trump has already filed eleven emergency requests with the Supreme Court, 504 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 2: which is more than that during the combined sixteen years 505 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 2: of George W. Bush and Barack Obama's administrations. And we're 506 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 2: still waiting for the court to rule or decide whether 507 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 2: to take a lot of those cases. 508 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 6: So there's a lot going on in the shadow docket. 509 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 6: So we'll see. I mean, we've never been down this 510 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 6: road before. We've never seen this kind of thing before, 511 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 6: and so that's why I'm not surprised that the Supreme 512 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 6: Court does things that we've never seen before. 513 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 2: So now let's talk about the tariff situation and the 514 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 2: Democratic Ags, A group of Democratic AGS are suing Trump 515 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: over the tariff, saying they have upended the constitutional order 516 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 2: and brought chaos to the American economy. There are several 517 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 2: suits over the tariff. So why would the AGS bother 518 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 2: to sue. 519 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 6: Well, it's a coalition. You have Democratic ags and you 520 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 6: have from the business community. They're suing because Trump, if 521 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 6: he wants to impose tariffs, needs to go to Congress. 522 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 6: But there is a law similar to the Alien Enemies Act. 523 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 6: There's a law from the seventies that permits a president 524 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 6: to put on emergency punishment emergency sanctions on governments that 525 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 6: are rogue. But it does not say in that law 526 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 6: that terriffs are a possibility. It's not a sanctioned listed 527 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 6: in the list of sanctions in that law. So number one, 528 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 6: the lawsuit says, even if you invoke this law in 529 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 6: case of emergency, you can't use terrorists. That's not an 530 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 6: arrow in your quiver according to the statue. And number two, 531 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 6: is it really an emergency? Is it an emergency a 532 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 6: crisis situation when you are trying to overturn decades of 533 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 6: trade and balances. If you have a problem with the 534 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 6: American policy or something has been going on for decades. 535 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 6: That's not a crisis emergency. It's not like you have 536 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 6: to have emergency powers. You have to go to Congress 537 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 6: and change policy. So I think that these attorneys general 538 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 6: have a very good argument. I think that their lawsuit 539 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 6: will prevail, at least in part, to slow down these tariffs. 540 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 6: Trump will have to go to Congress if he wants 541 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,239 Speaker 6: to get them through, but Congress doesn't want them. They 542 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 6: see how damaging these things are. Maybe one day we'll 543 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 6: have a Congress that actually works, that actually doesn't just 544 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 6: emasculate itself. But for now, the Congress is just scared 545 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 6: to do anything. But that day could change once prices 546 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 6: go way up and Trump's poll numbers go way down. 547 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 2: They're arguing that this is effectively massive taxes on Americans. 548 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 6: It definitely is. I mean, these tariffs are not paid 549 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 6: by foreign governments. They're paid by the importers, and the 550 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 6: importers pass it along to the consumers. And you saw 551 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 6: how Amazon wanted its consumers, its customers to know why 552 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 6: all of a sudden prices are going up, and they 553 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 6: were going to list it as here is the cost 554 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 6: of tariffs. And then Trump called Jeff Bezos and say, 555 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 6: how dare you? And then Jeff Bezos did what a 556 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 6: lot of billionaires and big law firms have been doing lately, 557 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 6: and and so they will not report the specific itemized 558 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 6: tariff costs. But the public is not stupid when their 559 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 6: goods go up. There's only so much blame you can 560 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 6: give to Joe Biden and DEI and all these other things. 561 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 6: At some point people are gonna put two and two 562 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 6: together and know that it's because of terror policy. Why 563 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 6: all of a sudden the stuff that they need that's 564 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 6: being imported from other countries is now much more expensive. 565 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: A White House spokesman said the Democrats are prioritizing a 566 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 2: witch hunt against President Trump over protecting the safety and 567 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 2: well being of their constituents. But any lawsuit could take 568 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 2: months or even years, and it would come likely after 569 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 2: the ninety day pause. 570 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 6: Courts could act more quickly. Think it is a strategy, 571 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 6: as you know, for Trump and Maggot, to delay, delay, delay, 572 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 6: But I think the courts are onto them. They've been 573 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 6: through this before. 574 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 2: So you're in Florida, let's talk about your governor Ron DeSantis, 575 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 2: who's term limited and he's promoted his wife to be 576 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 2: the next governor, and that. 577 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 6: Is setting up a showdown between the DeSantis wing of 578 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 6: the party in Florida and the Trump wing of the 579 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 6: party because Trump has endorsed Byron Donald's, a mega congressman, 580 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 6: to be the next governor. And that's why the knives 581 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 6: are out for Casey DeSantis. She has a charity, the 582 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 6: Hope Foundation of Florida, that allegedly received a ten million 583 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 6: dollar donation from Senteen, a medicaid provider, a vendor who 584 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 6: overcharged the state and so as part of their penalty, 585 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 6: they had to pay a certain amount to the state 586 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 6: and ten million dollars of that went to Hope Foundation, 587 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 6: and then a ten million dollar donation went from the 588 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 6: Hope Foundation to tax controlled by DeSantis's people to run 589 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 6: ads against the marijuana referendum that was on the ballot, 590 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 6: and the marijuana referendum lost in a close election. And 591 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 6: people are saying, well, it is not illegal to take 592 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 6: money was meant for the state's medicaid program and put 593 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 6: it into your own political coffers. The DeSantis folks are 594 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 6: saying that was extra money, that was an extra contribution 595 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 6: that was not part of the medicaid penalty. And the 596 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 6: Republicans are doing a lot of the investigation here. He 597 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 6: may be wondering, why are the Republicans investigating this? Because 598 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 6: Ron DeSantis is a lame duck. His term ends in 599 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 6: twenty twenty six, he can't run for governor again. There's 600 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 6: not a lot of good feelings amongst Republicans towards the 601 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 6: governor who has rules with an iron fist, and now 602 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 6: that he's a lame duck, they're getting some revenge and press. 603 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 6: Most importantly, Donald Trump runs the Republican Party nationally and 604 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 6: in Florida, and they want to please the Boss, so 605 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 6: they're going to side with him and Byron. Donald's over Ron. 606 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 6: In case of Dystantus, this whole controversy was not generated 607 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,719 Speaker 6: by Democrats. There aren't enough democrats in Tallahassee in our 608 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 6: government to make us think about things. And it was 609 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 6: not caused by the press corps. The press corps has 610 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 6: been decimated in Tallahassee. This was created by fellow Republicans 611 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 6: and that's why DeSantis keeps looking over his shoulder to 612 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 6: see who's gonna stab in the back next. 613 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 5: Is he still popular among Floridians? 614 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think he would get re elected to a 615 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 6: third term if he ran. I do think so. I 616 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 6: think he's not as popular as he was, but I think, 617 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 6: you know, Florida's a red state, and I think he 618 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 6: is still somewhat popular. But Donald Trump is more popular, 619 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 6: and Donald Trump's choice would normally beat Rond De Santa's 620 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 6: choice in a party primary. And when you add this 621 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 6: growing scandal which has damaged Casey DeSantis and Ron De Santis, 622 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 6: then I think the chances of Casey de Satan's becoming 623 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 6: governor are getting smaller by the day. She has not 624 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 6: announced that she's running for governor yet, but she's trying 625 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 6: to get through this controversy, which really had caught them 626 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 6: flat foot. I don't think they expected this. They had 627 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 6: never dealt with anything like this in their entire time 628 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 6: in office. They didn't care what the Democrats said, they 629 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 6: didn't care what the press said. But this is different. 630 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 6: This is coming from their side of the aisle. So 631 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 6: he's calling out Republicans for being Rhinos, he's calling them 632 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 6: out to being fake Republicans. He can't believe what's happening 633 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 6: to him, but it's just reality of politics. If there's 634 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 6: blood in the water, the people who who really resented 635 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 6: you for years they're going to come out and exploit 636 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 6: that situation. They see it, they see that blood in 637 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 6: the water, and all of a sudden, they're coming out 638 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 6: of the woodwork to go fishing. I think that's a 639 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 6: consistent metaphor, but leave it up to the listeners. 640 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 2: Always interesting to talk to you, Dave, Thanks so much. 641 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 2: That's Dave Ehrenberg, former Palm Beach County State Attorney. And 642 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 2: that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. 643 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on 644 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 2: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 645 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 2: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast, Slash Law, 646 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 2: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 647 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 2: week night at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June 648 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 2: Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg