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Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go

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Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on

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Speaker 1: the link to our channel.

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Speaker 2: In our show notes, I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea.

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Speaker 3: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers

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Speaker 3: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around

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Speaker 3: the world, and part.

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Speaker 2: Of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries.

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Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the

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Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about as well as some of

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Speaker 3: you may not have heard.

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Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? We'll

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Speaker 2: find out now on Mission Implausible. We're really pleased today

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Speaker 2: to have Stephanie Marsh actor, director, activist, entrepreneur, and known

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Speaker 2: for your role as assistant District Attorney Alex Cabot on

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Speaker 2: the long running hit TV series Law and Order SVU.

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Speaker 2: But Stephanie, you are a lot more go In your

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Speaker 2: capacity is a global activist. You advocate for women's rights

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Speaker 2: with a focus on reproductive rights, access to education, securing

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Speaker 2: freedom from sexual violence, and legal representation. You're on the

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Speaker 2: board of the Ponzi Foundation, not Ponzi Pansy Foundation, one

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Speaker 2: Kid World. Yeah, that's right, two or two African and

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Speaker 2: that helping kids in third world countries. And you served

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Speaker 2: on the board of Plant Parenthood Global. You're also a

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Speaker 2: member of the board of advisors for Northwestern University School

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Speaker 2: of Communications. So, Stephanie, welcome.

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Speaker 4: I really like how I sound through the bio that

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Speaker 4: you have.

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Speaker 2: Even more impressive, you're now on Mission Implausible podcast. I

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Speaker 2: think that goes that you can put that down on

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Speaker 2: your bio.

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Speaker 4: Now that's CIA adjacent and animals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, Stephanie, let's start with one of your failures,

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Speaker 2: one of your great failures. So in twenty nineteen, you

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Speaker 2: starred on a comedy Central small movie that talks about

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Speaker 2: how Donald Trump loses the twenty twenty election and then

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Speaker 2: goes into a tailspin and it is forgotten by the world.

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Speaker 2: You played Ivanka Trump. You got it rolly when he

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Speaker 2: does understand the world, you're manipulating everything.

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Speaker 4: Oh, we're a manipulative and optimist and not real operators.

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Speaker 4: You know, we're not in the field. I think so

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Speaker 4: much of you know, it's like dressed for the job

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Speaker 4: you want to get for the future you hope will happen.

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Speaker 4: It didn't. I don't know if that was a ratings

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Speaker 4: problem or a writing problem or an America problem, but

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Speaker 4: woof was that? Is that not what happened?

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Speaker 2: And none that didn't that didn't that didn't win.

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Speaker 4: It did not go down that way.

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Speaker 2: No, but you were a great Ivanka Trump, by the way,

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Speaker 2: I thought you.

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Speaker 4: I was in makeup for about seventeen years, thank you

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Speaker 4: very much. She's she's a very beautiful woman and she

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Speaker 4: has a very specific manner about her. So it did

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Speaker 4: take some time, I actually think, and I don't think

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Speaker 4: she does this anymore, but I really I watched a

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Speaker 4: lot of video of her at the time, and I

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Speaker 4: thought for a long time she choose gum probably to

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Speaker 4: keep for herself fresh and puts it on the side,

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Speaker 4: and then when she talks and does an interview and

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Speaker 4: keeps it kind of back here and then brings.

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Speaker 2: It back out.

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Speaker 4: So I did that on a couple of takes, and

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Speaker 4: I sounded more like her. But to do that effectively

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Speaker 4: on camera, you have to have done it a lot.

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Speaker 4: So I just want anybody who's paying attention to go

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Speaker 4: back and look at early Ivanta and see because you

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Speaker 4: can see she's full and the piece' gone back there.

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Speaker 2: See, that's kind of.

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Speaker 3: Stuff you get from all pretend you know we met

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Speaker 3: originally because we've been discussing possible TV shows we might

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Speaker 3: work on together. And Jerry and I have a company

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Speaker 3: that tries to work with Hollywood as producers on espionage things.

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Speaker 2: But can you talk a.

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Speaker 3: Little bit about to help us, how is Hollywood changing?

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Speaker 3: It seems like the whole industry is read learning how

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Speaker 3: to make TV and movies.

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Speaker 2: What's the deal? Tell us a little bit about.

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Speaker 4: What it has been? Totally disrupted? I think for a

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Speaker 4: number of so many industries are right now. I think

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Speaker 4: a couple of things happened. First of all, you know,

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Speaker 4: timing is everything, and the writer's strike and the actors

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Speaker 4: strike right after that were it were just terribly timed

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Speaker 4: at a moment in history where we all needed to

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Speaker 4: be working and part of a solution. We sat it out,

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Speaker 4: and that's for a variety of reasons, and everybody had

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Speaker 4: good intentions. But unfortunately, what I think a lot of

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Speaker 4: people discovered, meaning the streamers who are the primary creators

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Speaker 4: of really important content right now, is that they could

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Speaker 4: show for in shows and work elsewhere. And it was fine.

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Speaker 4: Remember twenty years ago when TV was TV. You wouldn't

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Speaker 4: watch a show about sixteenth century Japan made in Canada

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Speaker 4: in only Japanese. That w'd be unthinkable, right, Nobody's going

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Speaker 4: to watch that. But in a world where Netflix and

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Speaker 4: Amazon and Apple TV are happening, people will watch a

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Speaker 4: show that's good from all over. So the whole audience

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Speaker 4: got bigger and what they wanted to watch. The whole

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Speaker 4: production schedules spread all over the world. It's vastly cheaper

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Speaker 4: to make shows overseas, and all the actors and writers

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Speaker 4: here were on strike, so it completely disrupted the model.

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Speaker 4: And I don't think we've fig fgured out how to

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Speaker 4: get back to it at all. I don't think anybody

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Speaker 4: really knows what's happening. And I think at a time

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Speaker 4: where these streamers were spending and spending, they realized they

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Speaker 4: spent a lot and they hadn't made any of their

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Speaker 4: money back, and so then they really cut their budgets.

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Speaker 4: It's like Go find Squeak Game season two. I don't

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Speaker 4: want to pay for it. It's got to be out

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Speaker 4: there now. So would all of those things happen at

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Speaker 4: the same time, an industry just goes on its head,

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Speaker 4: And I think the pandemic hit.

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Speaker 3: Pandemic hit the movies too, so like we don't go

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Speaker 3: to movie theaters as much.

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Speaker 4: Right, that really accelerated our dive into streaming television. One

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Speaker 4: thing I've discovered as I've gotten older and watched how

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Speaker 4: the power shifts. And you talk about actors all day long,

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Speaker 4: and that's fun, But actors don't move levers. We're just

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Speaker 4: blue collar workers essentially, as far as this business is concerned.

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Speaker 4: The decisions that are made in offices far away, and

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Speaker 4: that's that's who has the power.

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Speaker 3: And it seems even like this, like we get a

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Speaker 3: lot when we talk to people. That used to be

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Speaker 3: if you package and you had a big star with you,

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Speaker 3: it was likely you'd get a show made. And now

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Speaker 3: it seems like even the big stars don't seem to

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Speaker 3: sell films and movies.

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Speaker 4: And I don't really know what a big star is

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Speaker 4: anymore because a lot of the time they don't want to.

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Speaker 4: It's too expensive. Right, It's like why attach a big

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Speaker 4: start or something when people will watch mention it before

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Speaker 4: Squid Game? Who nobody knew anybody in that show, So

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Speaker 4: it doesn't necessarily add up to ratings or viewership or whatever.

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Speaker 4: They're calling it now, so why have that outlay of cash?

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Speaker 2: You know what? Thing we find over and over in

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Speaker 2: Hollywood and it's not a conspiracy, but Hollywood struggles to

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Speaker 2: understand other venues outside of itself. I've got a lot

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Speaker 2: of police in my family and they watch police stuff

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Speaker 2: and they're like, yeah, it's not the way it works.

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Speaker 2: Including even SVU, it was like yeah, they would never Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that would never happen. And I've got friends in the

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Speaker 2: military and they're like, and our friends in CIA and

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Speaker 2: who formers and people still on the inside. People on

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Speaker 2: the ASCID always ask us like, what's the best show

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Speaker 2: about espionage? And the real answer is we struggle like

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Speaker 2: to come up with and I'll give you with one

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Speaker 2: one example and then we can move on to other criticisms.

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Speaker 2: But talked about this one operation that we knew of

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Speaker 2: in general, and the writers are like, oh, that's really

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Speaker 2: cool and it has to do with people taking big

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Speaker 2: risks and something bad happens. But then it turns out

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Speaker 2: to be okay, and they're like okay, and then basically

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Speaker 2: they rewrite it and it starts out with two people

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Speaker 2: falling into bed together, right who don't know each other.

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Speaker 2: Who just meet who are on an operation. Then there's

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Speaker 2: a car chase scene and an explosion and that's it.

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Speaker 2: There's there was no explosions and no verding to what

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Speaker 2: you've seen on TV.

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Speaker 4: They took all of the spy out of it and

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Speaker 4: put all over the Well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's sort of it's it's art imitating life.

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Speaker 4: I honestly, I think that's a mistake on whoever okays

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Speaker 4: the shows. In the end, I think audiences are much

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Speaker 4: smarter than people give them credit for.

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Speaker 2: I agree.

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Speaker 4: I call it what about the talking dog? You know,

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Speaker 4: like like if there's a show or a movie about

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Speaker 4: a talking dog, an executive sees that and they said, well,

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Speaker 4: what if we added a talking dog?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a show about nurses, where's our talking dog?

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Speaker 4: We had a talking to dog? Which I think it's

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Speaker 4: why when you get first generation, like first generation Netflix,

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Speaker 4: those people were bold, right, they took chances, they would

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Speaker 4: take a swing, and they produced great viewing. I want

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Speaker 4: to say TV, it is TV. They produced great TV

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Speaker 4: as a result. And I say I just said this

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Speaker 4: to my husband the other day. The three best jobs

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Speaker 4: I've ever had were Law and Order SVU, my small role,

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Speaker 4: and Death of a Salesman on Broadway and my small

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Speaker 4: roles two roles working with Avid di Vernay on Origin

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Speaker 4: and at a show called Dammy. And that is really

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Speaker 4: because I was working for three different people. Dick Wolf,

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Speaker 4: Bob Falls, and Avia di Verny, who maintained an incredible

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Speaker 4: amount of creative control, were very insistent that their product,

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Speaker 4: as they saw it, was the thing America watched.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, in your most famous role, obviously you

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Speaker 3: played stories about sexual violence and those kind of things,

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Speaker 3: and now obviously you work on those issues in your activism.

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Speaker 3: Did playing those things affect you personally and make you

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Speaker 3: involved in this or were you always active in that area?

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Speaker 4: That's a good I get asked this question, and I

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Speaker 4: would say, to some degree, I was always involved because

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Speaker 4: I'm the fourth generation. My great grandmother, not my grandmother,

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Speaker 4: but my great grandmother founded Planned Parenthood of West Texas

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Speaker 4: in nineteen thirty eight. It wasn't called that at the

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Speaker 4: time it became that, and so to some degree it's

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Speaker 4: always been a part of my life. But there is

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Speaker 4: no question that working on the show for as long

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Speaker 4: as I did informed a lot of my decision making

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Speaker 4: moving forward in terms of how I would spend my

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Speaker 4: time when I was not acting, and how I would

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Speaker 4: utilize my voice.

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Speaker 3: And there's no planned parenthood in Texas anymore, is there?

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Speaker 4: There's nothing that's right. There is a planned parenthood of

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Speaker 4: a Chapper. It's a planned parenthood of Greater Texas, and

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Speaker 4: it is run beautifully by a group of warrior people,

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Speaker 4: and they're doing a fantastic job, but it's a very

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Speaker 4: challenging environment.

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Speaker 2: Planned parenthood itself is the focus of target victim of

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Speaker 2: a lot of conspiracy theories and in dangerous ones, including

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Speaker 2: the vance bolter or the shooter of the Speaker of

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Speaker 2: the House in Minnesota on his hitless of people he

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Speaker 2: intended to kill after the Democratic Speaker of the Minnesota

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Speaker 2: State House planned parenthood seniors. They were on his hit list.

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Speaker 2: And the President has come out and with baseless and

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Speaker 2: malicious conspiracy theories about Tim Walls, saying that Tim Walls

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Speaker 2: was in on this right, was in on this murder

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Speaker 2: of this House official to hide monies from day Somali

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Speaker 2: daycare centers. And so I don't know where to start

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Speaker 2: with that, but conspiracy theories that mix politics and societal

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Speaker 2: issues like planned parenthood are especially dangerous and as a

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Speaker 2: former agency officer. This is something that we saw a

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Speaker 2: lot in places like Africa in the Middle East. We

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Speaker 2: never had to deal with those inside the United States,

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Speaker 2: and we are now.

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Speaker 4: Isn't that amazing how many steps backward we've gone. It's

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Speaker 4: really shocking. There's nothing more annoying, especially in today's climate,

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Speaker 4: than a woke feminist actor. Blah blah blah. Nobody wants

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Speaker 4: to hear it, and I don't particularly want to spout it,

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Speaker 4: but I will say women's bodies have been a war

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Speaker 4: around for a long time and it continues in it

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Speaker 4: so and it makes a good story. Looks. Sex sells

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Speaker 4: in whatever form it sells, and this is a way

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Speaker 4: of putting sex into a store.

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Speaker 3: The woke business of Hollywood. I mean, we did see

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Speaker 3: it when we first started, Jerry and I. People would

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Speaker 3: always try to change a character so it fit with

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Speaker 3: more sort of liberally things, and that was generally fine.

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Speaker 2: In our world. Men and women both do the work.

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Speaker 3: So if you want to make the characters women instead

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Speaker 3: of men, that's that's easy enough. But I see it

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Speaker 3: now a little bit that they're almost scared politically, like, oh, like,

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Speaker 3: we don't want to make the Russians the bad guys,

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Speaker 3: or maybe Venezuela should be the bad Maybe. For a

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Speaker 3: while a few years ago, it was like, I don't

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Speaker 3: say anything bad about China because our money's coming from

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Speaker 3: child like Hollywood like almost emphasizes what they think to

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Speaker 3: try to avoid political stuff. And in fact, like you said,

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Speaker 3: if they just focus on making good stories with good characters, people.

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Speaker 4: Don't work from what you think the audience wants. Back in,

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Speaker 4: write your good story. It's the powers that be let

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Speaker 4: it get there to the audience.

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Speaker 2: And going back to that, I'll go back to the

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Speaker 2: heavy stuff again. So serving in place is in the

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Speaker 2: third World. So I spent a lot of time in Afghanistan,

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Speaker 2: and I spent a lot of time in a rock

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Speaker 2: and Isis when it overran the Yezidi communities in northern Iraq.

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Speaker 2: That's what they engaged in, right They One of the

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Speaker 2: things I'm most proud about as being a former CIA

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Speaker 2: officer is pushing back on isis diminishing their capacity to

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Speaker 2: do that. And the same with Taliban with what they

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Speaker 2: brought back with women's rights. What they brought back with

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Speaker 2: the lack of any women's rights was something that continues

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Speaker 2: to be horrific. Looking back, at least on our careers,

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Speaker 2: some of the things that we feel best about was

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Speaker 2: bringing in what we thought to be human rights attributes.

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Speaker 2: As people in the audience may say, CIA officers, what

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Speaker 2: do they care about human rights? Actually we cared a

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Speaker 2: lot and it was pretty core to what got us

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Speaker 2: up in the morning. I got three daughters, Right, how

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Speaker 2: could it not be?

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Speaker 4: I think I'm not surprised, but I'm really interested in

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Speaker 4: that because when you're working in a really if you're

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Speaker 4: in the field, you're embedded in the most every day

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Speaker 4: since right like, you are in contact with people on

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Speaker 4: the ground, living their real lives, their real normal lives.

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Speaker 4: So any kind of effect or impression you can make

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Speaker 4: in that situation has really serious roots. You can pass

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Speaker 4: all the laws you want about rape is illegal, and

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Speaker 4: you have a right to an abortion or I don't

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Speaker 4: even want to say the word all the time, because

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Speaker 4: we shouldn't. It's not always about abortion, right, But you

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Speaker 4: can pass any law you want. Anybody can get up

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Speaker 4: there and stand in front of a microphone and feel

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Speaker 4: really proud of themselves, But it's what happens on the

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Speaker 4: ground every day, that's what people really live and experience.

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Speaker 4: That's really what life is. And if you're in the

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Speaker 4: field and you're able to affect some change, if it's

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Speaker 4: one family, if it's three families, if it's a neighborhood,

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Speaker 4: if it's a movement like isis, that is a lot

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Speaker 4: more progress than most of us wearing any colored ribbon

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Speaker 4: on our shoulders.

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Speaker 3: So if you work for especially for CIA, your job

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Speaker 3: is to collect information intelligence to help policymakers make better intelligence.

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Speaker 3: And there's times and cases and people you work with

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Speaker 3: where you can meet actually do would work on an

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Speaker 3: ethical grounds and to help Americans stay safe. But our

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Speaker 3: goal is not just to go out and try to

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Speaker 3: do ethical things where we are. We work for the

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Speaker 3: United States government, but there are other parts of the

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Speaker 3: US government. When it works together, that all works well.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things I.

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Speaker 3: Find most heinous about what's happened politically in the last

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Speaker 3: year is the destruction ofsaid we could never use USAID cover,

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Speaker 3: we wouldn't do that kind of stuff. They're doing different

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Speaker 3: work than we in CIA are doing, but they're doing

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Speaker 3: really good work. They're doing important work. They're helping people

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Speaker 3: on the ground, they're solving health issues and problems, things

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Speaker 3: that actually affect people in America's soft power around the world,

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Speaker 3: and we see that that benefits us because when those

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Speaker 3: countries see that the US actually cares about their people

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Speaker 3: who are doing good works, that helps us find those

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Speaker 3: sources that might be one to work against bad actors

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Speaker 3: and help us. So it all sort of works together.

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Speaker 3: So the destruction of USAID it was a terrible thing,

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Speaker 3: and we've just asked off and forgotten about it. But

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Speaker 3: you're talking probably hundreds of thousands of people dying over

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Speaker 3: the next few years because of that.

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Speaker 4: I've been amazed and horrified by a lot of things

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Speaker 4: in the last few years, but nothing comes close to

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Speaker 4: when that happened. Because it happened to be launching a

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Speaker 4: social enterprise called Galcare in Kenya. This is in western Kenya,

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Speaker 4: in a county call Homa Bay, which has the highest

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Speaker 4: rate of HIV of any country in Kenya. It didn't

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Speaker 4: and I found so enraging and so frustrating and just

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Speaker 4: so sad was that it had largely really addressed the problem.

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Speaker 4: People were getting medication that worked, and it was worked

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Speaker 4: for mothers who were pregnant, It worked for people who

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Speaker 4: already had it like AIDS and HIV. It was really

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Speaker 4: in a place that was vastly better than it was

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Speaker 4: and manageable, and we had the medication and it was

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Speaker 4: being distributed and then they just stopped handing it out.

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Speaker 4: That's just cruel and unusual to have medicine in a

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Speaker 4: clinic and then to lock the clinic door and then

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Speaker 4: to just disappear. It is to destroy a life in

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Speaker 4: twenty four hours. That stuff is time sensitive when you

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Speaker 4: take it.

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Speaker 2: And they just does just left it until it went bad, until.

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Speaker 4: It went back. And there were all these nutrition programs

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Speaker 4: that they were supplementing kids under the age of it

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Speaker 4: was five or three, and mannutrition at a really at

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Speaker 4: an early age is a significant determiner of whether or

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Speaker 4: not you have normal development as as you grow older

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Speaker 4: and all kinds of things like then that's the cascading

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Speaker 4: effects of that kind of job. Can you get where

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Speaker 4: can you go? What is your mental development? They had

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Speaker 4: the food and then the kids stopped getting it. It's there,

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Speaker 4: and then it wasn't handed out And that makes me crazy.

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Speaker 4: By the way, I am all for going after some

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Speaker 4: government spending, right, but maybe we could have started with

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Speaker 4: medicaid fraud or the DoD or you know, like it

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Speaker 4: feels like there were some bigger, better targets, right.

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Speaker 3: But actually The New York Times has done a big

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Speaker 3: stuff on Doze recently, and they didn't save any money.

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Speaker 2: None of that stuff. None of that stuff actually saved

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Speaker 2: any money.

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Speaker 3: They put all these false things out there about how

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Speaker 3: many billions they were saving, and it turns out it

357
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Speaker 3: really it wasn't It caused a lot of time.

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Speaker 4: Mean, there wasn't that much. It doesn't cost that much

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Speaker 4: considering what they're doing to begin with. That's the thing

360
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Speaker 4: is you have to say, idea was not that much

361
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Speaker 4: money massive ROI.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying we shouldn't give the Argentinian government forty

363
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Speaker 2: billion dollars to support their corrupt in an efficient government

364
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Speaker 2: structure and economy, Is that what you're trying to not.

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Speaker 4: Only I for're willing to keep eight aside so that

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Speaker 4: you can feed children under the age of three, you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean, that's what it costs at least

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Speaker 4: throw that into the pile.

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Speaker 2: Right. I have to say, as someone who spent three

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Speaker 2: decades in the US government, I'm trying to understand and

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Speaker 2: don't how those decisions came to be. Is it a

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Speaker 2: conspiracy Like generally before this is it doesn't count anymore.

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Speaker 2: We would have there would be an innagency process, right,

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Speaker 2: we would bring in DoD CIA, we'd be minor players,

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Speaker 2: but it would be aid State Department. Everybody would get

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Speaker 2: in a room and say, Okay, if we do this, Okay,

377
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Speaker 2: what is the results of it. What's the good, what's

378
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Speaker 2: the band, what's the trade offs? What's the way we

379
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Speaker 2: can do this in the best possible If we're going

380
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Speaker 2: to save money the best possible way, what do we

381
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Speaker 2: want to save? But there was none of this. It

382
00:18:05,984 --> 00:18:08,824
Speaker 2: was basically, you know, someone just walks in with a

383
00:18:08,864 --> 00:18:12,144
Speaker 2: meat clearer somewhere. There was a meeting someplace. A conspiracy,

384
00:18:12,184 --> 00:18:12,704
Speaker 2: if you will.

385
00:18:12,584 --> 00:18:16,504
Speaker 3: Do it was Elon Musk on Twitter, following Twitter trolls

386
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Speaker 3: and disinformation bots, and he believed fake stuff about USID

387
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Speaker 3: and these other things and then took action on.

388
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Speaker 2: It while he was microdiicing on Kenemy.

389
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Speaker 3: I mean essentially, so it's conspiracy theories that made its

390
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Speaker 3: way through social media, which informed decisions they made, and

391
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Speaker 3: instead of going to their giant government that had experts

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Speaker 3: that could tell them what's going on, j chose just

393
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Speaker 3: done their own.

394
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Speaker 2: And President is still doing that.

395
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Speaker 4: Frankly, has any medium ever been better for spreading a

396
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Speaker 4: conspiracy theory than social media? Is that the best thing

397
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Speaker 4: that's ever happened to conspiracy theorists everywhere?

398
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Speaker 2: I think it is.

399
00:19:02,384 --> 00:19:04,624
Speaker 3: It used to be if you believe some crazy stuff,

400
00:19:04,664 --> 00:19:06,944
Speaker 3: you might have to, like over time, you'd meet someone

401
00:19:06,984 --> 00:19:08,744
Speaker 3: in your neighborhood who believed it. In a few of

402
00:19:08,864 --> 00:19:11,304
Speaker 3: you could conspire. Now, if you believe something crazy, you

403
00:19:11,304 --> 00:19:13,224
Speaker 3: can go online and you could find a community of

404
00:19:13,264 --> 00:19:15,024
Speaker 3: people who want to believe the same crazy thing.

405
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Speaker 4: You could live there all the time.

406
00:19:17,144 --> 00:19:18,024
Speaker 2: What's the group, Jerry?

407
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Speaker 3: And was it in Germany that would wanted to eat

408
00:19:20,024 --> 00:19:21,464
Speaker 3: people that found each other online?

409
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Speaker 2: Or whatever? Really? Telling that story, telling that.

410
00:19:25,664 --> 00:19:26,944
Speaker 4: There's someone for everyone, right?

411
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Speaker 2: True story? Well, so, back in the Middle Ages, like

412
00:19:30,784 --> 00:19:35,104
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies, right, if you were inclined to be

413
00:19:35,264 --> 00:19:38,184
Speaker 2: a cannibal, you had no one to like reach out to. Right,

414
00:19:38,224 --> 00:19:40,584
Speaker 2: you'd go down to the local bar and you know,

415
00:19:40,704 --> 00:19:42,704
Speaker 2: you're with your buddies, Say you know you ever like

416
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Speaker 2: want to like gnaw on a knuckle or something like that.

417
00:19:44,824 --> 00:19:49,104
Speaker 2: He's like, no, right, And so so if you if

418
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Speaker 2: you are one of the fifty people inclined. Of the

419
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Speaker 2: seventy million Germans who wants to be a cannibal, you

420
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Speaker 2: could never meet the other sixty nine people. But suddenly,

421
00:19:59,504 --> 00:20:02,984
Speaker 2: with going at social media, it's possible they can meet

422
00:20:02,984 --> 00:20:07,224
Speaker 2: each other. Apparently, Stephanie, there's an even smaller group of

423
00:20:07,344 --> 00:20:11,144
Speaker 2: people who have this fetish who want to be eaten,

424
00:20:11,464 --> 00:20:13,584
Speaker 2: that's their thing, even smaller, it's just a couple of

425
00:20:13,624 --> 00:20:18,344
Speaker 2: those guys. It's not surprisingly well, they're Germans. So social

426
00:20:18,424 --> 00:20:23,024
Speaker 2: media brings these two groups together, right, which would never

427
00:20:23,104 --> 00:20:26,104
Speaker 2: have happened any time before the And so finally, in

428
00:20:26,144 --> 00:20:27,864
Speaker 2: this great course case, So I was in Germany when

429
00:20:27,864 --> 00:20:31,104
Speaker 2: it happened. The cannibal meets the guy who wants to

430
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Speaker 2: be eaten, and they get together and they actually sign

431
00:20:34,424 --> 00:20:37,144
Speaker 2: a contract because they're Germans. He's like, yeah, this is okay.

432
00:20:37,584 --> 00:20:39,464
Speaker 2: And they don't eat all of them, they just cut

433
00:20:39,504 --> 00:20:41,744
Speaker 2: off a piece of them. They eat it together. But

434
00:20:41,784 --> 00:20:43,544
Speaker 2: then the guy bleeds to death and dies because the

435
00:20:43,624 --> 00:20:49,624
Speaker 2: cannibal is not a doctor. Right, And but this only

436
00:20:49,704 --> 00:20:54,944
Speaker 2: becomes possible with social media that these sort of crazinesses

437
00:20:55,024 --> 00:20:59,064
Speaker 2: can actually combine and create something like that. So Stefan,

438
00:20:59,184 --> 00:21:01,824
Speaker 2: I want to blame you again for something. So you

439
00:21:01,904 --> 00:21:05,824
Speaker 2: are on the board of Northwestern University for the School

440
00:21:05,864 --> 00:21:09,104
Speaker 2: of Communications, Right, are all those people are they looking

441
00:21:09,184 --> 00:21:11,664
Speaker 2: into communications? Aren't they supposed to be figured? I don't

442
00:21:11,664 --> 00:21:13,864
Speaker 2: even know what communications. I had some friends who were

443
00:21:13,864 --> 00:21:16,504
Speaker 2: communications majors. I could never figure out what they did.

444
00:21:16,744 --> 00:21:19,864
Speaker 4: A lot of the department is being massively underutilized. One

445
00:21:19,864 --> 00:21:22,504
Speaker 4: of the things that we're studying in the School of

446
00:21:22,504 --> 00:21:26,464
Speaker 4: Comms is social media and how it affects people and

447
00:21:26,504 --> 00:21:29,664
Speaker 4: how people interpret. Do they believe AI? Do they not

448
00:21:29,704 --> 00:21:32,144
Speaker 4: believe AI? How do they sift through and use critical

449
00:21:32,184 --> 00:21:34,624
Speaker 4: thinking when they're looking at whatever source they see online?

450
00:21:34,664 --> 00:21:34,783
Speaker 2: Right?

451
00:21:34,784 --> 00:21:36,984
Speaker 4: When we choose our own sources, how can we use

452
00:21:37,024 --> 00:21:39,264
Speaker 4: critical thinking to determine whether or not what we're hearing

453
00:21:39,344 --> 00:21:42,424
Speaker 4: is nonsense? And there are a lot of really interesting

454
00:21:42,464 --> 00:21:44,664
Speaker 4: studies about that going on right now. The School of

455
00:21:44,704 --> 00:21:46,984
Speaker 4: Comms is not as well funded as say, the School

456
00:21:47,024 --> 00:21:50,184
Speaker 4: of Engineering. Right, everybody's talking about STEM STEM STEM, and

457
00:21:50,264 --> 00:21:54,264
Speaker 4: I think in this world of misinformation and the purposeful

458
00:21:54,304 --> 00:21:59,144
Speaker 4: dissemination of misinformation, like we should pay more attention to

459
00:21:59,384 --> 00:22:02,744
Speaker 4: communications and the critical thinking they're in. So this is

460
00:22:02,784 --> 00:22:05,784
Speaker 4: my low key way of pleading on behalf of School

461
00:22:05,824 --> 00:22:08,744
Speaker 4: of Comms for a bigger part of the Northwestern University budget,

462
00:22:09,544 --> 00:22:11,144
Speaker 4: so that we can get going on that. It's not

463
00:22:11,184 --> 00:22:11,544
Speaker 4: just STEM.

464
00:22:11,624 --> 00:22:14,224
Speaker 3: It's funny because there's more and more channels of communication,

465
00:22:14,304 --> 00:22:17,464
Speaker 3: right there's all the different shows, more ways to get

466
00:22:17,504 --> 00:22:21,304
Speaker 3: information than there ever has been before. Now, essentially, what happens,

467
00:22:21,384 --> 00:22:23,904
Speaker 3: despite the fact that there's more of these things, people

468
00:22:24,064 --> 00:22:26,024
Speaker 3: just narrow down to the one thing that they want

469
00:22:26,064 --> 00:22:28,824
Speaker 3: to hear, and they actually hear one piece of information

470
00:22:28,904 --> 00:22:31,224
Speaker 3: from one place. If you watch Fox News, you just

471
00:22:31,264 --> 00:22:33,104
Speaker 3: watch Fox News, you don't watch other stuff.

472
00:22:33,224 --> 00:22:35,744
Speaker 4: We should all be forced to triangulate our information. Right

473
00:22:35,824 --> 00:22:38,464
Speaker 4: there you go little source, left source, right source, and

474
00:22:38,504 --> 00:22:40,664
Speaker 4: then come to your own own determination.

475
00:22:40,824 --> 00:22:43,864
Speaker 2: But I would push back on that gently. I think

476
00:22:43,944 --> 00:22:49,023
Speaker 2: that conservative and liberal I think they can. But then

477
00:22:49,064 --> 00:22:52,584
Speaker 2: there's the out of bounds part that are like crazy,

478
00:22:52,664 --> 00:22:54,904
Speaker 2: the Laura Lumers, right, I mean, you know, I mean

479
00:22:55,184 --> 00:23:00,184
Speaker 2: people who are providing fact free, hateful, malicious meant to

480
00:23:00,264 --> 00:23:04,184
Speaker 2: hurt and divide and polarize and monetize. I don't think

481
00:23:04,184 --> 00:23:06,664
Speaker 2: they should be part of the I wouldn't ban them,

482
00:23:06,784 --> 00:23:08,984
Speaker 2: but I don't think they're part of the discussion because

483
00:23:08,984 --> 00:23:11,744
Speaker 2: it used to be. You could argue what the marginal

484
00:23:11,784 --> 00:23:13,704
Speaker 2: tax rate is, Well, I think it should be forty percent,

485
00:23:13,784 --> 00:23:15,704
Speaker 2: now it should be twenty percent. Okay, you can have

486
00:23:15,784 --> 00:23:19,624
Speaker 2: that discussion. But was the election stolen or not? The

487
00:23:19,664 --> 00:23:22,904
Speaker 2: answer is, look, you know, unless you can provide and

488
00:23:22,944 --> 00:23:27,384
Speaker 2: I'm being generous, unless you can provide evidence, you're just

489
00:23:27,424 --> 00:23:30,864
Speaker 2: making an assertion. This isn't a fact based conversation. This

490
00:23:31,024 --> 00:23:33,024
Speaker 2: is just making shit up.

491
00:23:33,344 --> 00:23:36,184
Speaker 4: How you can just say whatever into whatever channel you

492
00:23:36,224 --> 00:23:37,704
Speaker 4: want and present it as fact.

493
00:23:38,264 --> 00:23:40,944
Speaker 3: The crazier it is gets more eyeballs and therefore more money,

494
00:23:40,944 --> 00:23:43,704
Speaker 3: So it's almost an incentive to say things that are.

495
00:23:43,424 --> 00:23:46,344
Speaker 2: But you got to have some basic common ground, like

496
00:23:46,744 --> 00:23:49,224
Speaker 2: elections are how we settle our differences.

497
00:23:49,504 --> 00:23:52,104
Speaker 4: Dan and I just finished watching the ken Burns American

498
00:23:52,144 --> 00:23:55,544
Speaker 4: Revolution is outstanding, and we hold these truths to be

499
00:23:55,584 --> 00:23:58,624
Speaker 4: self evident, that all men are created equal. A lot

500
00:23:58,664 --> 00:24:01,504
Speaker 4: of people don't hold them to be self evident or

501
00:24:01,664 --> 00:24:03,504
Speaker 4: don't want to say that on the air because it's

502
00:24:03,504 --> 00:24:04,744
Speaker 4: not good TV and.

503
00:24:04,664 --> 00:24:05,784
Speaker 2: From a series like that.

504
00:24:06,064 --> 00:24:08,264
Speaker 3: And I was just listening, for example, to Rachel Maddow's

505
00:24:08,424 --> 00:24:10,944
Speaker 3: podcast on the Japanese and Tournament in World War Two,

506
00:24:10,944 --> 00:24:14,024
Speaker 3: among other things is how many things in our history

507
00:24:14,184 --> 00:24:16,824
Speaker 3: you did see these frictions, like there's basis of these

508
00:24:16,864 --> 00:24:20,384
Speaker 3: problems before that we actually worked on and got passed,

509
00:24:20,864 --> 00:24:23,744
Speaker 3: and then eventually there's been this up and down in

510
00:24:23,784 --> 00:24:25,144
Speaker 3: the United States before.

511
00:24:25,584 --> 00:24:29,344
Speaker 4: My take away from this whole experience watching this documentary

512
00:24:29,464 --> 00:24:32,984
Speaker 4: was it requires the active participation of all of us. Yeah,

513
00:24:33,064 --> 00:24:35,624
Speaker 4: it requires us to vote, it requires us to read

514
00:24:35,624 --> 00:24:37,944
Speaker 4: the news, it requires us to pay attention to horror.

515
00:24:37,984 --> 00:24:41,184
Speaker 4: Local judges are you know you've got It's only as

516
00:24:41,224 --> 00:24:44,704
Speaker 4: good as we're willing to make it. So if we're

517
00:24:44,744 --> 00:24:46,704
Speaker 4: just showing up and yelling at each other, that's not

518
00:24:46,944 --> 00:24:50,024
Speaker 4: that's not going to work. Okay Venezuela. Are we going

519
00:24:50,104 --> 00:24:53,344
Speaker 4: to talk about Venezuela. It seems like such a blatant

520
00:24:53,384 --> 00:24:56,624
Speaker 4: play for oil that that I don't I mean, maybe

521
00:24:56,624 --> 00:24:57,464
Speaker 4: that's well.

522
00:24:57,504 --> 00:25:00,344
Speaker 3: What's funny about Trump is like you can tell like Ruby,

523
00:25:00,344 --> 00:25:02,104
Speaker 3: all these few all these people have the standard like,

524
00:25:02,224 --> 00:25:04,544
Speaker 3: oh no, this is about abc D, But then they

525
00:25:04,584 --> 00:25:06,784
Speaker 3: asked the Yeah it's about oil. I talked to the

526
00:25:06,824 --> 00:25:07,224
Speaker 3: oil companies.

527
00:25:07,224 --> 00:25:07,664
Speaker 2: They're going to go in.

528
00:25:07,664 --> 00:25:10,144
Speaker 3: They're going to make sure like he just said the stuff.

529
00:25:10,304 --> 00:25:11,704
Speaker 3: You can tell these all these poor guys that have

530
00:25:11,744 --> 00:25:13,504
Speaker 3: been going on TV pretending like that wasn't it.

531
00:25:13,624 --> 00:25:15,904
Speaker 4: So to what degree now that this has happened and

532
00:25:15,984 --> 00:25:18,784
Speaker 4: the machinations behind the scenes, to what degree does this embolden,

533
00:25:19,504 --> 00:25:21,744
Speaker 4: you know, Russia to go further into Ukraine, or China

534
00:25:21,784 --> 00:25:23,784
Speaker 4: to go to Taiwan, or US to go to Greenland?

535
00:25:23,824 --> 00:25:26,024
Speaker 4: Because while we're at it, does this set off a

536
00:25:26,064 --> 00:25:27,864
Speaker 4: series of events where we all just agree around the

537
00:25:27,864 --> 00:25:30,264
Speaker 4: world that it's okay, that's.

538
00:25:30,064 --> 00:25:30,944
Speaker 2: The concern, isn't it.

539
00:25:31,024 --> 00:25:33,584
Speaker 3: There's a number of things that President Trump has done,

540
00:25:34,344 --> 00:25:37,104
Speaker 3: this being the latest that give that sense a he's

541
00:25:37,224 --> 00:25:38,984
Speaker 3: of the view that we ought to be back into

542
00:25:38,984 --> 00:25:42,584
Speaker 3: the spheres of influence eighteenth nineteenth century view of the world,

543
00:25:42,664 --> 00:25:46,424
Speaker 3: like we control this hemisphere, the western hemisphere, the Russians

544
00:25:46,424 --> 00:25:49,704
Speaker 3: can have their area in the central of Eurasia, and

545
00:25:50,184 --> 00:25:53,224
Speaker 3: Asia will be belong to China. And so if you're

546
00:25:53,304 --> 00:25:56,224
Speaker 3: a g you can say, like, yeah, I mean, what

547
00:25:56,304 --> 00:25:59,704
Speaker 3: is there suggesting that Trump cares about Taiwan or defending Taiwan,

548
00:25:59,784 --> 00:26:03,144
Speaker 3: especially when he can go take places and where Putin

549
00:26:03,184 --> 00:26:07,024
Speaker 3: can't take Ukraine. And so that's the logical extension of

550
00:26:07,064 --> 00:26:09,904
Speaker 3: that that hasn't been said directly because we're still part

551
00:26:09,904 --> 00:26:13,104
Speaker 3: of things like NATO and the other agreements. But that's

552
00:26:13,144 --> 00:26:15,184
Speaker 3: where it seems to be going. And so if I'm

553
00:26:15,184 --> 00:26:18,704
Speaker 3: one of those people, I don't know if they get

554
00:26:18,704 --> 00:26:20,904
Speaker 3: to the point where they actually take action on that.

555
00:26:21,344 --> 00:26:23,104
Speaker 3: But what they're doing is they're seeing in the United

556
00:26:23,144 --> 00:26:27,304
Speaker 3: States taking actions that suggests that's where that it's okay, Like, hey,

557
00:26:27,704 --> 00:26:30,224
Speaker 3: I'm leaving you your area, you just stay out of

558
00:26:30,264 --> 00:26:30,904
Speaker 3: my area.

559
00:26:31,104 --> 00:26:34,464
Speaker 2: Right now, it's a kabuki play. We're not running Venezuela.

560
00:26:34,584 --> 00:26:37,664
Speaker 2: We haven't done We've done nothing but take away Maduro.

561
00:26:38,024 --> 00:26:43,304
Speaker 2: The entire apparatus of oppression and incompetence is still in

562
00:26:43,464 --> 00:26:47,744
Speaker 2: power there, and there's gonna be no American. We don't

563
00:26:47,784 --> 00:26:50,104
Speaker 2: have an embassy there. I as an embassy officer, I

564
00:26:50,144 --> 00:26:52,544
Speaker 2: wouldn't go there right now. I mean, you're gonna get

565
00:26:52,624 --> 00:26:54,624
Speaker 2: kidnapped or killed. How long is it going to be

566
00:26:54,624 --> 00:26:57,544
Speaker 2: before five Americans are sitting in a jungle someplace with

567
00:26:57,664 --> 00:27:01,144
Speaker 2: a gun to their head and gorillas are saying, you

568
00:27:01,144 --> 00:27:03,424
Speaker 2: give us back Maduro. We're gonna start shooting these people.

569
00:27:03,624 --> 00:27:06,064
Speaker 2: We're going in that direction. So we're not putting boots

570
00:27:06,104 --> 00:27:08,104
Speaker 2: on the ground. We don't actually run the place. All

571
00:27:08,144 --> 00:27:11,224
Speaker 2: we've done is taken away Madua. So I think, I

572
00:27:11,264 --> 00:27:14,064
Speaker 2: think what's going to happen is nothing really other than

573
00:27:14,104 --> 00:27:20,064
Speaker 2: a lot of hullabaloo. The current leader of Venezuela, whose father,

574
00:27:20,224 --> 00:27:23,464
Speaker 2: by the way, kidnapped an American citizen, held him for

575
00:27:23,504 --> 00:27:26,624
Speaker 2: three years, and was tortured to death by the Venezuelan

576
00:27:26,784 --> 00:27:30,744
Speaker 2: secret police. You think she's oh, yeah, her father was

577
00:27:30,744 --> 00:27:35,624
Speaker 2: a communist guerrilla who captured a guy American businessman, held

578
00:27:35,704 --> 00:27:38,984
Speaker 2: him for three years, got twenty million dollars for him,

579
00:27:39,344 --> 00:27:42,224
Speaker 2: was eventually caught by the right wing junta that was

580
00:27:42,344 --> 00:27:45,464
Speaker 2: close to the US and tortured to death. Her brother

581
00:27:45,584 --> 00:27:48,944
Speaker 2: is the head of the Assembly, the National Assembly. I mean,

582
00:27:49,024 --> 00:27:51,144
Speaker 2: she may be a little more pragmatic and that she's

583
00:27:51,184 --> 00:27:53,144
Speaker 2: not going to say fuck you Trump to his face,

584
00:27:53,504 --> 00:27:55,584
Speaker 2: But do you think she's gonna do anything? And the

585
00:27:55,624 --> 00:27:57,704
Speaker 2: thirty thousand Cubans there are going to allow it to

586
00:27:57,744 --> 00:28:00,184
Speaker 2: happen and all unless we want to go in like

587
00:28:00,224 --> 00:28:03,504
Speaker 2: in Iraq or Afghanistan, and of course those went real well.

588
00:28:03,784 --> 00:28:06,544
Speaker 2: We wanted to send so much money and it was yeah, yeah,

589
00:28:06,584 --> 00:28:08,384
Speaker 2: we made so much money out of those two places.

590
00:28:08,624 --> 00:28:12,144
Speaker 2: Unless we go win. To do that, what CEO is

591
00:28:12,184 --> 00:28:14,344
Speaker 2: going to take five engineers and say, hey, I want

592
00:28:14,344 --> 00:28:16,184
Speaker 2: you to go into Venezuela. You know, let me know

593
00:28:16,184 --> 00:28:18,544
Speaker 2: how it works out for you. It's not safe, So

594
00:28:18,664 --> 00:28:20,864
Speaker 2: I don't think anything is. It's going to be chaotic

595
00:28:20,904 --> 00:28:22,904
Speaker 2: and ugly, and there may be more shooting and deaths,

596
00:28:23,424 --> 00:28:25,864
Speaker 2: but I don't unless we go in and put boots

597
00:28:25,904 --> 00:28:29,224
Speaker 2: on the ground, I don't think there's going to be

598
00:28:29,224 --> 00:28:31,144
Speaker 2: some major changes. But what do I know. I thought

599
00:28:31,224 --> 00:28:33,024
Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton was going to win. It's not about the

600
00:28:33,024 --> 00:28:33,944
Speaker 2: people of Venezuela.

601
00:28:33,944 --> 00:28:36,104
Speaker 3: Like the the fact we would wouldn't put in the

602
00:28:36,344 --> 00:28:40,824
Speaker 3: duly elected Nobel Peace Price. There's like we want to

603
00:28:40,824 --> 00:28:44,264
Speaker 3: work it out junta because they'll let us have, you know,

604
00:28:44,784 --> 00:28:46,184
Speaker 3: the set of the vote.

605
00:28:46,184 --> 00:28:48,384
Speaker 2: But she has no respect inside the country. But the

606
00:28:48,464 --> 00:28:51,024
Speaker 2: second thing I would say, more importantly is to a

607
00:28:51,024 --> 00:28:55,264
Speaker 2: certain extent, Venezuela is a side show. Weirdly, Greenland is

608
00:28:55,264 --> 00:29:01,384
Speaker 2: more important because Greenland will break NATO. Right, So NATO

609
00:29:01,504 --> 00:29:05,264
Speaker 2: is there to prevent exactly things like US taking over Greenland. Right,

610
00:29:05,264 --> 00:29:08,424
Speaker 2: It's like it is an attack on a NATO member,

611
00:29:08,904 --> 00:29:11,304
Speaker 2: and so depends on how. And I think they're fine

612
00:29:11,304 --> 00:29:15,104
Speaker 2: with doing this, that will be America left alone without

613
00:29:15,184 --> 00:29:19,104
Speaker 2: real allies. I mean the impact of Europe cutting itself

614
00:29:19,144 --> 00:29:21,064
Speaker 2: off from US, which they're not going to want to

615
00:29:21,104 --> 00:29:23,784
Speaker 2: do immediately. They're going to do it, but basically we've

616
00:29:23,824 --> 00:29:26,184
Speaker 2: lost all influence in the world if we turn on

617
00:29:26,264 --> 00:29:29,104
Speaker 2: a NATO ally and we have no justification. At least

618
00:29:29,344 --> 00:29:33,064
Speaker 2: with Madua, we could pretend, oh, well, he was running fentanyl.

619
00:29:33,064 --> 00:29:36,464
Speaker 2: Oh I mean, I mean cocaine. Of course, we just

620
00:29:36,704 --> 00:29:39,224
Speaker 2: released the head of Honduras, the foreger president Honduras, who

621
00:29:39,304 --> 00:29:42,184
Speaker 2: ran forty four hundred tons of cocaine in the US.

622
00:29:42,264 --> 00:29:43,104
Speaker 2: He's fine, It's.

623
00:29:42,944 --> 00:29:45,024
Speaker 4: A lot more effective, and so I think it was

624
00:29:45,064 --> 00:29:46,584
Speaker 4: better Greenland.

625
00:29:46,584 --> 00:29:48,664
Speaker 2: There's a lot more at stake because it means our

626
00:29:48,704 --> 00:29:51,464
Speaker 2: alliances around the world will be effectively over.

627
00:29:51,784 --> 00:29:54,064
Speaker 3: We spent a lot of time over the last I

628
00:29:54,104 --> 00:29:57,224
Speaker 3: don't know, several decades trying to do away with the

629
00:29:57,304 --> 00:29:59,224
Speaker 3: view that we were the big bed bully who just

630
00:29:59,224 --> 00:30:02,144
Speaker 3: did what we wanted in Latin America and Central America,

631
00:30:02,744 --> 00:30:06,304
Speaker 3: so that we could develop relationships that were mutually beneficial.

632
00:30:06,344 --> 00:30:08,624
Speaker 3: And now we're just going back and doing the same

633
00:30:08,624 --> 00:30:10,664
Speaker 3: old thing. It's going to take if we ever want

634
00:30:10,704 --> 00:30:12,464
Speaker 3: to get back to that period of time. It's going

635
00:30:12,504 --> 00:30:14,464
Speaker 3: to take a long time before anybody in this part

636
00:30:14,464 --> 00:30:15,304
Speaker 3: of the world trust us.

637
00:30:15,584 --> 00:30:16,184
Speaker 2: Yes, for sure.

638
00:30:16,344 --> 00:30:19,184
Speaker 4: Isn't that The biggest drag is that it takes five

639
00:30:19,224 --> 00:30:21,664
Speaker 4: seconds to break it and ten years to be held it.

640
00:30:21,904 --> 00:30:33,144
Speaker 5: Yeah.

641
00:30:33,824 --> 00:30:36,704
Speaker 2: So Stephanie, do you have any CIA questions like things

642
00:30:36,704 --> 00:30:38,824
Speaker 2: that have always like where we hide the aliens or

643
00:30:38,864 --> 00:30:40,584
Speaker 2: anything like that. Ad I want to know where we

644
00:30:40,624 --> 00:30:41,584
Speaker 2: hide in the aliens? Do you know?

645
00:30:42,344 --> 00:30:45,064
Speaker 4: Okay? I did listen to this, and I don't like

646
00:30:45,104 --> 00:30:47,184
Speaker 4: to be I don't like to pay the podcasts Favorites

647
00:30:47,224 --> 00:30:49,024
Speaker 4: Buzz listening to a podcast on the Journal and they

648
00:30:49,024 --> 00:30:52,624
Speaker 4: were talking about the UFO sidings and New Mexico and

649
00:30:52,824 --> 00:30:56,544
Speaker 4: government conspiracy to cover up. So what are your thoughts

650
00:30:56,584 --> 00:30:58,384
Speaker 4: on that, because what it sounded like to me is

651
00:30:58,384 --> 00:31:00,544
Speaker 4: that it boiled down to they were testing a few

652
00:31:00,544 --> 00:31:01,944
Speaker 4: things and I didn't want people to know about it.

653
00:31:01,944 --> 00:31:04,544
Speaker 4: An alien cover felt like pretty good cover because it's

654
00:31:04,584 --> 00:31:06,344
Speaker 4: a great story and people will talk about it. And

655
00:31:06,424 --> 00:31:08,464
Speaker 4: the more people pretended they weren't talking about it, the

656
00:31:08,504 --> 00:31:10,704
Speaker 4: more it only looked like we're really covering up an

657
00:31:10,744 --> 00:31:13,584
Speaker 4: alien conspiracy. But it sounds like it was weapons testing,

658
00:31:13,864 --> 00:31:16,304
Speaker 4: and they just didn't want to admit it. Any thoughts

659
00:31:16,304 --> 00:31:16,624
Speaker 4: on that.

660
00:31:16,944 --> 00:31:20,104
Speaker 2: Jerry, this is yours man hit it. Oh yeah, that's

661
00:31:20,104 --> 00:31:22,424
Speaker 2: where the skunkworks. That's where they were trying on all

662
00:31:22,544 --> 00:31:26,424
Speaker 2: the new airplanes and the new vehicles. So my understanding

663
00:31:26,504 --> 00:31:29,904
Speaker 2: is that there was a crash and they there was

664
00:31:29,904 --> 00:31:32,504
Speaker 2: a mix up initially in communications back in the forty seven,

665
00:31:32,624 --> 00:31:35,784
Speaker 2: forty eight and area fifty one, if that's what we're

666
00:31:35,784 --> 00:31:38,424
Speaker 2: talking about. That, yeah, that the government tried to hide

667
00:31:39,104 --> 00:31:40,824
Speaker 2: and said it was a weather balloon when it was

668
00:31:40,864 --> 00:31:43,344
Speaker 2: actually experimental aircraft, which is what you'd expect. You don't

669
00:31:43,344 --> 00:31:46,464
Speaker 2: want the Russians or the Soviet Union to know what

670
00:31:46,504 --> 00:31:48,744
Speaker 2: technologies we've got or what we're testing out right. It

671
00:31:48,824 --> 00:31:50,704
Speaker 2: is like the fate of the country depends on us

672
00:31:50,744 --> 00:31:53,384
Speaker 2: being able to defend ourselves, and some secrets need to

673
00:31:53,384 --> 00:31:56,224
Speaker 2: be kept. And I think then people jumped in and

674
00:31:56,264 --> 00:31:58,144
Speaker 2: I think it was probably only really only twenty thirty

675
00:31:58,224 --> 00:32:02,024
Speaker 2: years later that and again Hollywood, Scully and Malder really

676
00:32:02,064 --> 00:32:06,944
Speaker 2: got that going again and got people thinking about it.

677
00:32:06,264 --> 00:32:12,504
Speaker 2: So I can only laugh. The government can't keep secrets

678
00:32:12,944 --> 00:32:16,344
Speaker 2: for seventy years with tens or hundreds of thousands of

679
00:32:16,384 --> 00:32:19,624
Speaker 2: people and nobody knows. Stephanie, if you were, if you

680
00:32:19,664 --> 00:32:21,864
Speaker 2: were to waterboard me right now, I would tell you

681
00:32:21,904 --> 00:32:22,904
Speaker 2: all about the aliens.

682
00:32:22,984 --> 00:32:24,864
Speaker 4: It feels like they got such a lucky break that

683
00:32:24,904 --> 00:32:26,464
Speaker 4: everybody thought it was aliens in the kind like, what

684
00:32:26,504 --> 00:32:27,744
Speaker 4: a great distraction I.

685
00:32:27,664 --> 00:32:30,064
Speaker 3: Had never There're thirty years in this see I don't

686
00:32:30,624 --> 00:32:32,744
Speaker 3: we never discussed it or I never heard anything about us.

687
00:32:32,744 --> 00:32:35,104
Speaker 3: So maybe the people who work on aircraft or in

688
00:32:35,144 --> 00:32:38,064
Speaker 3: the military or whatever and more sort of interest in

689
00:32:38,064 --> 00:32:40,824
Speaker 3: these kind of things. But I tend to be skeptical

690
00:32:40,904 --> 00:32:42,624
Speaker 3: of alien things.

691
00:32:42,944 --> 00:32:45,664
Speaker 2: I'll jump in and say that one of the things

692
00:32:45,664 --> 00:32:48,304
Speaker 2: that Hollywood always gets wrong, but I get why because

693
00:32:48,304 --> 00:32:53,224
Speaker 2: it's cool is sex and the CIA. Categorically, we don't

694
00:32:53,344 --> 00:32:57,944
Speaker 2: use like honey traps, we don't use blackmail, we don't

695
00:32:58,024 --> 00:33:00,424
Speaker 2: use sexual despite the fact that you've got people as

696
00:33:00,424 --> 00:33:03,104
Speaker 2: good looking and charming as John and I, right.

697
00:33:02,984 --> 00:33:04,504
Speaker 4: Who know what a waste of talent?

698
00:33:04,784 --> 00:33:06,424
Speaker 2: Think what we could have got away with Jerry.

699
00:33:06,544 --> 00:33:09,064
Speaker 4: I think of the raw talent that is completely less

700
00:33:09,064 --> 00:33:11,264
Speaker 4: on the field. It's like that criminals.

701
00:33:10,824 --> 00:33:13,464
Speaker 2: Don't do that, and we don't do it morally, right,

702
00:33:13,544 --> 00:33:15,064
Speaker 2: I mean, I got three daughters, you go home and

703
00:33:15,464 --> 00:33:18,744
Speaker 2: you know who's And also it just doesn't friggin work, right,

704
00:33:18,784 --> 00:33:19,504
Speaker 2: I mean, well that's.

705
00:33:19,344 --> 00:33:22,104
Speaker 4: What Why not? Why not use it? It doesn't work,

706
00:33:22,464 --> 00:33:24,264
Speaker 4: it's too much trouble it creates.

707
00:33:25,024 --> 00:33:27,904
Speaker 3: Our work is to find people who have access to

708
00:33:28,064 --> 00:33:32,984
Speaker 3: secrets that have are motivated to work with us, keep

709
00:33:33,024 --> 00:33:34,904
Speaker 3: them safe, and give us those secrets that can help

710
00:33:34,944 --> 00:33:38,064
Speaker 3: Americans stay safe. So it's a long term play and

711
00:33:38,104 --> 00:33:41,144
Speaker 3: it's based on trust. And so what you want someone

712
00:33:41,184 --> 00:33:44,144
Speaker 3: to do is be giving you those secrets and hiding

713
00:33:44,384 --> 00:33:47,664
Speaker 3: themselves from their government or whatever, and be motivated to

714
00:33:47,664 --> 00:33:50,104
Speaker 3: do it. If you put them in a situation where

715
00:33:50,144 --> 00:33:53,024
Speaker 3: you're using blackmail or sex to get that, they're going

716
00:33:53,064 --> 00:33:54,704
Speaker 3: to want to get out of that relationship as soon

717
00:33:54,744 --> 00:33:56,784
Speaker 3: as they can, or they don't. The trust has been

718
00:33:56,824 --> 00:33:58,224
Speaker 3: lost there, and so you're not gonna be able to

719
00:33:58,264 --> 00:34:01,744
Speaker 3: maintain that that trust over time with those kind of people.

720
00:34:02,384 --> 00:34:05,664
Speaker 3: And so essentially we want to build that relationship so

721
00:34:05,704 --> 00:34:09,064
Speaker 3: it's mutually beneficial and it goes for a long time

722
00:34:09,264 --> 00:34:13,024
Speaker 3: where rather than put people in uncomfortable situations, maybe have

723
00:34:13,104 --> 00:34:14,663
Speaker 3: them give us something because they're in tu they might

724
00:34:14,704 --> 00:34:16,864
Speaker 3: get in trouble and then look to get out of

725
00:34:16,864 --> 00:34:17,703
Speaker 3: that as soon as they.

726
00:34:17,703 --> 00:34:20,064
Speaker 4: Can, or even if it's just romantic. Okay, the first

727
00:34:20,104 --> 00:34:22,584
Speaker 4: six months are over. Now what now that person's just

728
00:34:22,584 --> 00:34:25,024
Speaker 4: a lit fuse. Right, you're pissed off at each other.

729
00:34:25,304 --> 00:34:27,464
Speaker 4: You don't have any long form for us and not

730
00:34:27,584 --> 00:34:28,823
Speaker 4: in ill lot of stuff.

731
00:34:28,743 --> 00:34:31,584
Speaker 2: Or you used me, I'm gonna I'm gonna fuck with you, right,

732
00:34:31,623 --> 00:34:33,024
Speaker 2: I'm gonna you know, and then like that.

733
00:34:33,183 --> 00:34:35,623
Speaker 4: We're all doing one relationship or another. It's actually something

734
00:34:35,904 --> 00:34:37,223
Speaker 4: terrible use of resources.

735
00:34:37,223 --> 00:34:39,984
Speaker 2: In time, it doesn't. And there was this great story

736
00:34:41,584 --> 00:34:45,104
Speaker 2: Indonesia and Malaysia. The leader there went to Moscow. Know

737
00:34:45,143 --> 00:34:49,064
Speaker 2: you're talking about Indonesia, Yes, So he ends up he

738
00:34:49,143 --> 00:34:51,703
Speaker 2: ends up in the sixties. He ends up in bed

739
00:34:51,743 --> 00:34:53,984
Speaker 2: with a beautiful woman or two beautiful women, and the

740
00:34:54,064 --> 00:34:56,904
Speaker 2: Russians are in there taking pictures of this. And he

741
00:34:56,984 --> 00:35:01,104
Speaker 2: goes back to Indonesia and the KGB resident like shuffles

742
00:35:01,143 --> 00:35:03,464
Speaker 2: over and shows him these pictures, thinking he's got like

743
00:35:03,584 --> 00:35:06,783
Speaker 2: blackmail and Carno. The story goes goes through this and

744
00:35:06,824 --> 00:35:09,223
Speaker 2: goes oh yeah. He says, can you blow this one

745
00:35:09,263 --> 00:35:11,623
Speaker 2: up me? And I'll take three of these. I want

746
00:35:11,663 --> 00:35:13,903
Speaker 2: to give him to my friends. Yeah, that didn't work

747
00:35:15,064 --> 00:35:17,223
Speaker 2: only with Yeah, so no, we don't do that. But

748
00:35:17,263 --> 00:35:19,064
Speaker 2: Hollywood loves that sex.

749
00:35:19,263 --> 00:35:22,703
Speaker 4: Sux else, whether it's whether it's you know, good or

750
00:35:22,743 --> 00:35:25,304
Speaker 4: bad and whatever you conceive of that to be. Any

751
00:35:25,424 --> 00:35:27,663
Speaker 4: story that has a sexual element to it is likely

752
00:35:27,703 --> 00:35:28,904
Speaker 4: to attract some eyeballs.

753
00:35:29,104 --> 00:35:32,223
Speaker 2: So Stephanie, I got one other thing. So you are

754
00:35:32,384 --> 00:35:34,303
Speaker 2: I hope I can say this. You're an investor in

755
00:35:34,344 --> 00:35:37,303
Speaker 2: this great bar in New York, Temple Bar, right, yes,

756
00:35:37,623 --> 00:35:41,464
Speaker 2: a tiny percent? Does it matter? It is a spy

757
00:35:41,663 --> 00:35:45,943
Speaker 2: watering hole. So I will say I had to take

758
00:35:45,984 --> 00:35:48,343
Speaker 2: back when I was still inside. I had to take

759
00:35:48,384 --> 00:35:51,384
Speaker 2: back a Middle Eastern Eastern potentate. Well, he was just

760
00:35:51,623 --> 00:35:54,104
Speaker 2: a general and I had to take him back to

761
00:35:54,183 --> 00:35:55,903
Speaker 2: New York and we were going to talk with him.

762
00:35:55,904 --> 00:35:57,863
Speaker 2: He was not an asset. He was just someone who

763
00:35:57,944 --> 00:36:00,223
Speaker 2: liked to work with us. And we were taken back

764
00:36:00,223 --> 00:36:02,423
Speaker 2: to New York where we would set down. He wanted

765
00:36:02,424 --> 00:36:03,504
Speaker 2: to go to New York. He didn't want to go

766
00:36:03,504 --> 00:36:06,343
Speaker 2: to Washington, and you know, the FBI met him, and

767
00:36:06,504 --> 00:36:09,024
Speaker 2: people flep from Washington and met him, and he wanted

768
00:36:09,024 --> 00:36:11,183
Speaker 2: to go to Tell Bar. And so I have been

769
00:36:11,304 --> 00:36:15,424
Speaker 2: to your restaurant and did spy shit in there and so.

770
00:36:15,663 --> 00:36:16,464
Speaker 4: Perfect for that.

771
00:36:16,743 --> 00:36:18,584
Speaker 2: Yes, and we didn't even get a corner table. We

772
00:36:18,663 --> 00:36:20,544
Speaker 2: tried to do that, we couldn't, but but I wanted

773
00:36:20,544 --> 00:36:23,224
Speaker 2: to say it was a great meeting for any spies

774
00:36:23,223 --> 00:36:25,624
Speaker 2: out there still in New York. Temple Bar great place

775
00:36:25,663 --> 00:36:26,823
Speaker 2: to go for your spy meeting.

776
00:36:26,984 --> 00:36:29,664
Speaker 4: You get free popcorn, the lights are low, the music's

777
00:36:29,703 --> 00:36:31,584
Speaker 4: just loud enough that you can't hear the people next

778
00:36:31,623 --> 00:36:35,304
Speaker 4: to you talking. For spies, I would love to reach

779
00:36:35,384 --> 00:36:39,424
Speaker 4: the spycraft audience in order to promote one of the

780
00:36:39,464 --> 00:36:42,263
Speaker 4: most disabled action oriented bars in New York. Why not?

781
00:36:43,024 --> 00:36:45,504
Speaker 2: And you'll always know who the real spy is because

782
00:36:45,584 --> 00:36:48,663
Speaker 2: his back is to the wall and his view is

783
00:36:48,703 --> 00:36:50,064
Speaker 2: towards the door right.

784
00:36:49,984 --> 00:36:53,623
Speaker 6: His views of the room, yeah, which which is half

785
00:36:53,663 --> 00:36:56,503
Speaker 6: the people in the bar. Then Jerry my definition people,

786
00:36:56,743 --> 00:36:58,823
Speaker 6: Well there you go. See it's so safe if here

787
00:36:58,864 --> 00:37:00,783
Speaker 6: a spy. Well, I'm still glad you like to really

788
00:37:00,824 --> 00:37:02,504
Speaker 6: do love Temple Bar. It is an institution.

789
00:37:02,703 --> 00:37:04,423
Speaker 3: Listen, we don't take it most of your time. It's

790
00:37:04,464 --> 00:37:06,303
Speaker 3: just like so good to talk to you. We want

791
00:37:06,304 --> 00:37:08,064
Speaker 3: to be able to leave enough space we can talk

792
00:37:08,223 --> 00:37:09,903
Speaker 3: in the future again. More about things.

793
00:37:09,984 --> 00:37:12,303
Speaker 4: I would like to discuss what's happening in Africa at

794
00:37:12,304 --> 00:37:14,504
Speaker 4: some point. Yeah, go ahead, because I you know, we

795
00:37:14,544 --> 00:37:19,624
Speaker 4: talk about Asia and Western Hemisphere and Eurasia, but what's happened?

796
00:37:19,783 --> 00:37:23,104
Speaker 4: But what about Africa. There's a lot going on over there.

797
00:37:23,424 --> 00:37:25,263
Speaker 3: There is a lot coming there, absolutely, and there's a

798
00:37:25,304 --> 00:37:27,464
Speaker 3: lot of things. You know that Chinese are investing very

799
00:37:27,504 --> 00:37:30,984
Speaker 3: heavily there. The US, at least un of the Obama

800
00:37:31,024 --> 00:37:35,104
Speaker 3: administration and administration was trying to like engage more in Africa.

801
00:37:35,623 --> 00:37:38,383
Speaker 3: It's a place that's always batted under its under its weight,

802
00:37:38,424 --> 00:37:41,263
Speaker 3: and there's so much there. The administration is going after

803
00:37:41,504 --> 00:37:44,303
Speaker 3: Nigeria and a number of other places. Jerry spent a

804
00:37:44,384 --> 00:37:47,264
Speaker 3: number of years living in Africa and working in Africa.

805
00:37:47,623 --> 00:37:49,424
Speaker 4: I'm sure you have plenty to stay about. I have

806
00:37:49,584 --> 00:37:51,984
Speaker 4: learned recently in the last year that sixty percent of

807
00:37:52,024 --> 00:37:54,504
Speaker 4: the population of the continent of Africa is under the

808
00:37:54,544 --> 00:37:57,304
Speaker 4: age of thirty. So, man, that feels like the future.

809
00:37:57,424 --> 00:37:59,984
Speaker 2: I mean was that Nigeria has like it's going to

810
00:38:00,024 --> 00:38:03,343
Speaker 2: be like the fourth most populous country in the world soon, right,

811
00:38:03,384 --> 00:38:06,943
Speaker 2: I mean or third? They have some oil, Yeah, they do,

812
00:38:07,263 --> 00:38:09,343
Speaker 2: and I guess we're going in guns blazing, right, It's

813
00:38:09,384 --> 00:38:12,983
Speaker 2: like I guess, so I guess. But I will say

814
00:38:13,384 --> 00:38:16,983
Speaker 2: in Africa, because we have access to targets like North

815
00:38:17,064 --> 00:38:19,424
Speaker 2: Koreans and Russians and Chinese like we don't have in

816
00:38:19,464 --> 00:38:23,704
Speaker 2: places like Berlin and Paris, it is probably more African

817
00:38:23,703 --> 00:38:27,024
Speaker 2: campbells are more active on the espionage front, batting way

818
00:38:27,143 --> 00:38:30,383
Speaker 2: over there, mixing metaphors, batting over their weight. Uh yeah,

819
00:38:30,623 --> 00:38:32,984
Speaker 2: Africa is we can certainly talk about Africa. We can

820
00:38:33,024 --> 00:38:35,903
Speaker 2: talk about espionage in Africa and some of the crossovers

821
00:38:35,904 --> 00:38:39,623
Speaker 2: between espionage and human rights right where they collide and

822
00:38:39,623 --> 00:38:42,663
Speaker 2: where they collaborate with who you back and regimes and

823
00:38:42,743 --> 00:38:45,544
Speaker 2: so forth. Let's do that, especially South Africa right now

824
00:38:45,544 --> 00:38:46,504
Speaker 2: too well. I would love to.

825
00:38:46,703 --> 00:38:48,783
Speaker 3: What's happening in Sudan is one of the worst things

826
00:38:48,783 --> 00:38:51,143
Speaker 3: happening in the world, and it's going to affect us

827
00:38:51,183 --> 00:38:52,263
Speaker 3: even though we're not paying.

828
00:38:52,024 --> 00:38:53,024
Speaker 2: Attention to it now.

829
00:38:53,064 --> 00:38:55,064
Speaker 4: You know, I will say this, but it's interesting when

830
00:38:55,104 --> 00:38:56,984
Speaker 4: I try to triangulate my news and get up from

831
00:38:57,024 --> 00:38:59,823
Speaker 4: a bunch of different sources, and so I listened to

832
00:39:00,304 --> 00:39:02,983
Speaker 4: BBC News Hour often and it's just amazing how much

833
00:39:02,984 --> 00:39:04,744
Speaker 4: more news there is in the world than we bothered

834
00:39:04,783 --> 00:39:06,623
Speaker 4: to hear about it. You want to find out what's

835
00:39:06,663 --> 00:39:09,304
Speaker 4: happening in South Sudan, don't listen to any American news

836
00:39:09,623 --> 00:39:10,344
Speaker 4: Stone's covering.

837
00:39:10,384 --> 00:39:12,143
Speaker 3: I remember when I was young being told like a

838
00:39:12,223 --> 00:39:15,024
Speaker 3: government could have two choices. You could either invest in

839
00:39:15,064 --> 00:39:18,223
Speaker 3: and create an intelligence service, or you could read the economist.

840
00:39:19,223 --> 00:39:23,704
Speaker 2: True, That's true.

841
00:39:25,703 --> 00:39:30,744
Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'sha, John Cipher,

842
00:39:31,064 --> 00:39:32,344
Speaker 1: and Jonathan Stern.

843
00:39:32,544 --> 00:39:34,904
Speaker 2: The associate producer is Rachel Harner.

844
00:39:35,143 --> 00:39:38,944
Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable

845
00:39:38,984 --> 00:39:40,943
Speaker 1: pictures for iHeart podcasts.