1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:24,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Around month nine or ten of the pandemic, I 2 00:00:24,716 --> 00:00:27,596 Speaker 1: noticed that a bunch of my friends and Internet associates 3 00:00:27,596 --> 00:00:31,076 Speaker 1: had started to read the same book. It was called Wintering, 4 00:00:31,516 --> 00:00:35,876 Speaker 1: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times. Of course, 5 00:00:36,036 --> 00:00:38,756 Speaker 1: I had to get myself a copy, and imagine my 6 00:00:38,876 --> 00:00:42,876 Speaker 1: delight at discovering that the author of this internationally best 7 00:00:42,916 --> 00:00:48,156 Speaker 1: selling book, Katherine May, was an autistic woman roughly my age. 8 00:00:48,796 --> 00:00:52,516 Speaker 1: Not only that, but her first book, The Electricity of 9 00:00:52,596 --> 00:00:56,396 Speaker 1: Every Living Thing, was all about her autistic journey of 10 00:00:56,476 --> 00:01:00,996 Speaker 1: self discovery. I can't say enough about Catherine's autism memoir. 11 00:01:01,556 --> 00:01:03,756 Speaker 1: As I consumed it, I felt like I was reading 12 00:01:03,796 --> 00:01:08,716 Speaker 1: about myself, which is both unsettling and thrilling. I dog 13 00:01:08,716 --> 00:01:11,836 Speaker 1: eared so many pages and sung the books praises to 14 00:01:12,116 --> 00:01:16,596 Speaker 1: everyone I knew. So how could I not try everything 15 00:01:16,636 --> 00:01:20,156 Speaker 1: in my power to get Katherine on the horn. Luckily 16 00:01:20,516 --> 00:01:27,796 Speaker 1: she answered, Hello, I'm Katherine May. I'm the author of 17 00:01:27,836 --> 00:01:32,156 Speaker 1: Wintering and the Electricity of Every Living Thing, and I've 18 00:01:32,196 --> 00:01:35,276 Speaker 1: known I'm autistic for about five years now. You know 19 00:01:35,396 --> 00:01:38,556 Speaker 1: one thing you wrote that you know when you were 20 00:01:38,596 --> 00:01:42,236 Speaker 1: sort of in these early stages, that you felt like 21 00:01:42,276 --> 00:01:46,796 Speaker 1: you were trying to perform some kind of acrobatic act 22 00:01:46,876 --> 00:01:52,156 Speaker 1: of understanding and seeing yourself from the outside. And I wonder, like, 23 00:01:52,396 --> 00:01:55,556 Speaker 1: I'm not such a beautiful way of describing it, but like, 24 00:01:56,156 --> 00:01:59,916 Speaker 1: tell me more about what that means, about that experience 25 00:01:59,996 --> 00:02:04,396 Speaker 1: of really trying to like turn yourself over and look 26 00:02:04,436 --> 00:02:06,716 Speaker 1: at it from a different from look at yourself from 27 00:02:06,716 --> 00:02:12,396 Speaker 1: a different perspective, and things that were maybe invisible to me. Yeah, 28 00:02:12,436 --> 00:02:15,996 Speaker 1: And that's because so many of the accounts of autism, again, 29 00:02:16,076 --> 00:02:19,356 Speaker 1: particularly at the time, we're all from the outside. They 30 00:02:19,356 --> 00:02:22,236 Speaker 1: were all like, what does an autistic person look like 31 00:02:22,356 --> 00:02:25,516 Speaker 1: to a neurotypical person? You know, what are the signs? Like, 32 00:02:25,556 --> 00:02:27,596 Speaker 1: what are the symptoms, which is, you know, a word 33 00:02:27,636 --> 00:02:31,636 Speaker 1: that I'm very very uncomfortable with using of autism, you know. 34 00:02:31,636 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 1: And so it's like it looks like this, they will 35 00:02:34,076 --> 00:02:36,916 Speaker 1: seem socially awkward. They will you know, they will not 36 00:02:36,956 --> 00:02:40,756 Speaker 1: be making eye contact. Da da da da da. And 37 00:02:40,836 --> 00:02:43,116 Speaker 1: so what I had to do was think, well, do 38 00:02:43,476 --> 00:02:47,236 Speaker 1: I fit those descriptions, you know, do I refuse to 39 00:02:47,276 --> 00:02:50,996 Speaker 1: make eye contact? And then that opens up this whole 40 00:02:51,676 --> 00:02:56,356 Speaker 1: personal archaeology because actually, yes, I can remember being very 41 00:02:56,476 --> 00:03:00,396 Speaker 1: very uncomfortable with eye contact when I was younger and 42 00:03:00,556 --> 00:03:02,516 Speaker 1: being told off for it, you know, being told off 43 00:03:02,556 --> 00:03:05,116 Speaker 1: for not paying attention and not looking at someone while 44 00:03:05,156 --> 00:03:07,756 Speaker 1: they were addressing me, you know, my teachers and stuff 45 00:03:07,796 --> 00:03:14,716 Speaker 1: like that. But I'd buried so much because I had 46 00:03:14,796 --> 00:03:21,276 Speaker 1: no consistent narrative of self available to me that would 47 00:03:21,276 --> 00:03:25,156 Speaker 1: have integrated all that I was. Like, there was no 48 00:03:25,356 --> 00:03:28,756 Speaker 1: story that I could have told myself in which I 49 00:03:28,876 --> 00:03:33,196 Speaker 1: was a kind of valued, accepted, autistic person, and so 50 00:03:33,436 --> 00:03:36,156 Speaker 1: I'd constructed a self in my mind that was like 51 00:03:36,956 --> 00:03:41,796 Speaker 1: a kind of slightly one key eurotypical who seemed traumatized 52 00:03:42,316 --> 00:03:44,156 Speaker 1: but couldn't remember what the trauma, you know, that I 53 00:03:44,196 --> 00:03:46,956 Speaker 1: had no access to knowing what this trauma was supposed 54 00:03:46,956 --> 00:03:50,676 Speaker 1: to be, and that I if I could only find 55 00:03:50,756 --> 00:03:52,836 Speaker 1: the right answer, you know. So I was always like 56 00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:56,636 Speaker 1: reading self help books and going to workshops, you know, 57 00:03:56,716 --> 00:04:00,836 Speaker 1: and taking up new things that would sort me out, 58 00:04:00,956 --> 00:04:04,676 Speaker 1: that would finally make me operate in the same way 59 00:04:04,716 --> 00:04:07,356 Speaker 1: as the people around me did. And in the meantime, 60 00:04:07,356 --> 00:04:09,436 Speaker 1: I was engaged in a big project, often ending I 61 00:04:09,516 --> 00:04:11,356 Speaker 1: was just like them, and in fact that I was 62 00:04:11,396 --> 00:04:15,556 Speaker 1: a hyper normal one like them, you know. And so 63 00:04:15,756 --> 00:04:17,556 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if it's the same for you. 64 00:04:17,636 --> 00:04:23,076 Speaker 1: But it becomes this huge mission to unravel all that 65 00:04:23,076 --> 00:04:25,836 Speaker 1: you thought you knew about yourself and to actually get 66 00:04:25,836 --> 00:04:30,396 Speaker 1: back to contact with how you feel in the world. 67 00:04:30,956 --> 00:04:33,956 Speaker 1: You know, And I've suppressed a lot of sensory stuff 68 00:04:33,996 --> 00:04:36,956 Speaker 1: that I didn't think I had the right to feel, 69 00:04:37,316 --> 00:04:39,596 Speaker 1: and so I had to reacquaint with all of that. 70 00:04:39,716 --> 00:04:43,116 Speaker 1: It was it was slow, and it was painful. Yeah, yeah, no, 71 00:04:43,316 --> 00:04:46,516 Speaker 1: I mean I, like I said, you know, we started 72 00:04:46,636 --> 00:04:48,836 Speaker 1: been everything that I was reading in your book. I 73 00:04:48,876 --> 00:04:51,276 Speaker 1: was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, that's me. That's me. 74 00:04:51,876 --> 00:04:57,556 Speaker 1: I've always you know, it's like Lauren, you know, dances 75 00:04:57,596 --> 00:05:00,196 Speaker 1: to the beat of her own drummer. You know, it's 76 00:05:00,196 --> 00:05:02,556 Speaker 1: like that type of person, right, And it's like, but 77 00:05:02,876 --> 00:05:06,436 Speaker 1: the way that you talked about your your childhood, I 78 00:05:06,436 --> 00:05:10,956 Speaker 1: mean I felt very very much the same, like you're 79 00:05:10,956 --> 00:05:14,756 Speaker 1: a handful, you're difficult. You. I wanted to talk to 80 00:05:14,756 --> 00:05:19,676 Speaker 1: you about your temper as a kid, and and I guess, 81 00:05:19,756 --> 00:05:22,276 Speaker 1: like what that looked like when you were a child. 82 00:05:22,756 --> 00:05:26,116 Speaker 1: And I mean I think probably now what I was 83 00:05:26,156 --> 00:05:30,036 Speaker 1: going through would have been described as meltdowns. But again, 84 00:05:30,196 --> 00:05:34,316 Speaker 1: because there was no access to that language, I was, 85 00:05:34,516 --> 00:05:36,636 Speaker 1: you know, seen as a yeah, a child with a 86 00:05:36,716 --> 00:05:39,876 Speaker 1: temper who could kind of fly off the handle, who 87 00:05:39,956 --> 00:05:45,716 Speaker 1: you know, was naughty and difficult. And what I remember 88 00:05:45,876 --> 00:05:50,476 Speaker 1: is being disapproved of by adults for losing control and 89 00:05:50,716 --> 00:05:56,356 Speaker 1: feeling very different in that sense, like very very much 90 00:05:56,396 --> 00:05:58,916 Speaker 1: like a like somebody who was who did not have 91 00:05:58,956 --> 00:06:01,356 Speaker 1: control of their behavior in the way that other children did, 92 00:06:01,396 --> 00:06:04,276 Speaker 1: and wondering how other children managed to pull off this 93 00:06:04,356 --> 00:06:09,916 Speaker 1: amazing feet of control. Yeah, right right. The issue is, 94 00:06:09,956 --> 00:06:12,156 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that your parents had an 95 00:06:12,156 --> 00:06:16,996 Speaker 1: inkling like, oh, there is something beyond just Catherine being 96 00:06:17,116 --> 00:06:20,036 Speaker 1: difficult or sensitive? And do you know what I think 97 00:06:20,476 --> 00:06:22,516 Speaker 1: because I was brought up by my mum because my 98 00:06:22,556 --> 00:06:26,156 Speaker 1: parents were divorced, But I would say that my mum 99 00:06:26,236 --> 00:06:29,836 Speaker 1: was absolutely clear that there was something going on she 100 00:06:30,196 --> 00:06:31,996 Speaker 1: I mean, and she's as soon as I told her 101 00:06:32,036 --> 00:06:35,436 Speaker 1: as an adult, she was like, ah, yes, that's it, 102 00:06:35,556 --> 00:06:39,076 Speaker 1: you know, and she'd she'd felt battles to try and 103 00:06:39,396 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 1: get it understood. You know, she she saw loads of 104 00:06:42,156 --> 00:06:45,276 Speaker 1: things that were running differently to me and other kids, 105 00:06:45,356 --> 00:06:48,036 Speaker 1: and you know, there was a there was a while 106 00:06:48,076 --> 00:06:51,836 Speaker 1: when my school kind of suggested that I was what 107 00:06:51,876 --> 00:06:53,676 Speaker 1: would have been called hyperactive at the time. You know, 108 00:06:53,676 --> 00:06:55,676 Speaker 1: I would now talk about ADHD, but you know, I 109 00:06:55,796 --> 00:06:59,556 Speaker 1: was a hyperactive child, but that didn't particularly fit and 110 00:06:59,596 --> 00:07:03,036 Speaker 1: it didn't fit my academic profile necessarily as well, because 111 00:07:03,036 --> 00:07:05,396 Speaker 1: it was really obvious that I, you know, could concentrate 112 00:07:05,476 --> 00:07:10,196 Speaker 1: very deeply on academic things, but that my more erratic 113 00:07:10,236 --> 00:07:14,236 Speaker 1: behavior was often around sport and social events and that 114 00:07:14,396 --> 00:07:16,956 Speaker 1: and you know, those those things that I found really difficult. 115 00:07:17,596 --> 00:07:20,596 Speaker 1: So yeah, like my mum, My mum knew there was something, 116 00:07:20,676 --> 00:07:23,436 Speaker 1: but there was She had nothing. And she actually ran 117 00:07:23,556 --> 00:07:26,436 Speaker 1: me after the book came out and to say there 118 00:07:26,516 --> 00:07:28,556 Speaker 1: was no there was nothing that could have led me 119 00:07:28,676 --> 00:07:31,076 Speaker 1: to to this. You know, do you forgive me? I 120 00:07:31,116 --> 00:07:33,516 Speaker 1: was like, of course I do. I totally understand. You know, 121 00:07:33,836 --> 00:07:36,596 Speaker 1: that's beautiful. She wanted to help and she knew I 122 00:07:36,676 --> 00:07:40,916 Speaker 1: needed it, and yeah, you know, there was nothing. There 123 00:07:40,956 --> 00:07:43,196 Speaker 1: was nothing that she could have ever found that would 124 00:07:43,196 --> 00:07:47,156 Speaker 1: have told her. Here's the explanation that will make everything 125 00:07:47,196 --> 00:07:50,676 Speaker 1: makes sense to you, right right, you know I just 126 00:07:50,796 --> 00:07:54,916 Speaker 1: told my parents, um, like last week and did well. 127 00:07:54,996 --> 00:08:00,636 Speaker 1: So I was diagnosed a year ago, um, and I 128 00:08:00,636 --> 00:08:04,916 Speaker 1: have it was a It was an enormous fear of mine. 129 00:08:05,116 --> 00:08:09,036 Speaker 1: Because my relationship with them has you know, been jagged 130 00:08:09,236 --> 00:08:13,076 Speaker 1: over the years, and I was really terrified, and I 131 00:08:13,116 --> 00:08:15,076 Speaker 1: texted the producers. I was like, I can't do it, 132 00:08:15,156 --> 00:08:18,396 Speaker 1: Like I just can't. I can't tell them like I can't. 133 00:08:18,876 --> 00:08:20,396 Speaker 1: I don't know how to do it. I don't know how. 134 00:08:20,436 --> 00:08:22,836 Speaker 1: I don't have the words, like I don't have that 135 00:08:22,916 --> 00:08:26,196 Speaker 1: relationship with them, I don't want to feel vulnerable around them, 136 00:08:26,236 --> 00:08:30,116 Speaker 1: I don't feel safe around them. And then, you know, 137 00:08:30,636 --> 00:08:34,356 Speaker 1: I feel like there's a part when you're telling you know, 138 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:37,396 Speaker 1: your family it depending on the relationship you have with them, 139 00:08:37,716 --> 00:08:42,556 Speaker 1: that like you are indicting them in some way that 140 00:08:42,636 --> 00:08:44,876 Speaker 1: they were bad parents or something like that. And that 141 00:08:44,916 --> 00:08:47,156 Speaker 1: was absolutely not what I wanted to do because even 142 00:08:47,196 --> 00:08:50,516 Speaker 1: if I had issues with parts of their parenting, what 143 00:08:50,596 --> 00:08:54,196 Speaker 1: I know to be true is that autism was absolutely 144 00:08:54,236 --> 00:08:58,316 Speaker 1: not talked about in America in those times, and certainly 145 00:08:58,356 --> 00:09:01,276 Speaker 1: not with girls who are high achieving. I mean, I 146 00:09:01,356 --> 00:09:05,036 Speaker 1: was wondering, you know, as you were talking before one 147 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:07,476 Speaker 1: thing I've been kind of grappling with, or one thing 148 00:09:07,516 --> 00:09:09,396 Speaker 1: that sort of led me to this. There was a 149 00:09:09,436 --> 00:09:12,796 Speaker 1: particular incident that kept coming up for me and in therapy, 150 00:09:12,876 --> 00:09:14,476 Speaker 1: like an incident that happened to me when I was 151 00:09:14,516 --> 00:09:16,596 Speaker 1: a kid that I feel like sort of said in 152 00:09:16,636 --> 00:09:19,916 Speaker 1: motion a lot of ways that I felt about myself 153 00:09:20,076 --> 00:09:22,956 Speaker 1: or whatever. And I wonder it's sort of how it 154 00:09:23,076 --> 00:09:25,236 Speaker 1: impacted you as a child, or if you can think 155 00:09:25,236 --> 00:09:28,836 Speaker 1: about how it impacted you to be sort of you know, 156 00:09:28,956 --> 00:09:31,596 Speaker 1: the naughtied one, the difficult one, like how did it 157 00:09:31,676 --> 00:09:34,996 Speaker 1: make you feel about yourself as an adult or as 158 00:09:34,996 --> 00:09:40,396 Speaker 1: a Yeah, no, absolutely terrible. I mean I felt I mean, 159 00:09:40,436 --> 00:09:44,916 Speaker 1: I you know, I felt different, but also I felt 160 00:09:44,956 --> 00:09:48,196 Speaker 1: like somebody who was less good. I mean I don't 161 00:09:48,196 --> 00:09:51,516 Speaker 1: mean like good at stuff, I mean goodhearted than other people, 162 00:09:52,196 --> 00:09:55,076 Speaker 1: because I've been told often that I was like arrogant 163 00:09:55,236 --> 00:09:59,716 Speaker 1: or aloof or abrupt or like my mum's phrase about 164 00:09:59,716 --> 00:10:02,796 Speaker 1: me was always that I didn't suffer fools gladly, which 165 00:10:03,676 --> 00:10:07,956 Speaker 1: may be true. I was not, you know, front of 166 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:13,556 Speaker 1: the line when patients were handed out. But you get 167 00:10:13,556 --> 00:10:18,356 Speaker 1: this really direct feedback about yourself that is always couched 168 00:10:18,356 --> 00:10:22,356 Speaker 1: in negative terms, and then you get the indirect feedback. 169 00:10:22,436 --> 00:10:25,436 Speaker 1: You know that you're not invited to parties that you 170 00:10:25,476 --> 00:10:28,396 Speaker 1: know the other girls are. You know they're getting together 171 00:10:28,436 --> 00:10:31,156 Speaker 1: and they have interests that they share and you can't 172 00:10:31,236 --> 00:10:33,876 Speaker 1: access them, they don't make any sense to you, and 173 00:10:35,276 --> 00:10:39,916 Speaker 1: you feel rejected. And yeah, like my self esteem was horrible. 174 00:10:39,956 --> 00:10:42,636 Speaker 1: And when I had when I had a complete breakdown 175 00:10:42,636 --> 00:10:44,996 Speaker 1: when I was seventeen and I had to come out 176 00:10:44,996 --> 00:10:48,556 Speaker 1: of school for a year and I just absolutely couldn't function. 177 00:10:49,356 --> 00:10:52,636 Speaker 1: It was following like an instant where I'd been bullied 178 00:10:52,636 --> 00:10:56,636 Speaker 1: by some other girls over some stupid school magazine that 179 00:10:56,916 --> 00:10:59,476 Speaker 1: you know, we're all supposed to be working on, and 180 00:10:59,556 --> 00:11:02,836 Speaker 1: i'd you know, i'd come off wrong, like i'd i'd 181 00:11:02,876 --> 00:11:07,156 Speaker 1: upset everybody, and it tipped over into me being like 182 00:11:07,276 --> 00:11:11,036 Speaker 1: singled out and targeted over over again. And my self 183 00:11:11,196 --> 00:11:13,956 Speaker 1: esteem was always, you know, it was already so low. 184 00:11:14,716 --> 00:11:18,556 Speaker 1: I couldn't handle it anymore. Like I absolutely hated myself 185 00:11:18,636 --> 00:11:21,116 Speaker 1: and I was suicidal, and I was suicidal for a 186 00:11:21,116 --> 00:11:24,716 Speaker 1: long long time. Yeah, And it's you know, I'm saying 187 00:11:24,756 --> 00:11:28,236 Speaker 1: that really openly because I know exactly how common that 188 00:11:28,436 --> 00:11:31,916 Speaker 1: is amongst you know, autistic people, whether or not they know. 189 00:11:32,036 --> 00:11:37,796 Speaker 1: It's it's that continual rejection that breaks you down. Yeah, yeah, 190 00:11:37,836 --> 00:11:42,036 Speaker 1: I you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking that the 191 00:11:42,156 --> 00:11:45,676 Speaker 1: saving grace that I had was sport, and I was 192 00:11:46,356 --> 00:11:50,956 Speaker 1: very good at sports. But also that was where you 193 00:11:50,956 --> 00:11:53,676 Speaker 1: could find worth because it was very black and white. 194 00:11:53,676 --> 00:11:56,236 Speaker 1: You either win or you lose, and you can always 195 00:11:56,276 --> 00:12:00,996 Speaker 1: keep improving and you could always get positive attention because 196 00:12:01,196 --> 00:12:04,516 Speaker 1: if you won, it just comes with the territory. Right. 197 00:12:05,636 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 1: But I remember my coach very clearly saying to me 198 00:12:08,636 --> 00:12:12,876 Speaker 1: in one year in college, like, you seek out negative attention, 199 00:12:12,956 --> 00:12:14,916 Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't know what you mean. 200 00:12:15,236 --> 00:12:18,556 Speaker 1: And I was thinking, like, oh, that's because for so 201 00:12:18,636 --> 00:12:22,396 Speaker 1: much of the time in school, that's the only attention 202 00:12:22,836 --> 00:12:25,076 Speaker 1: that you got. You know, that's the only attention that 203 00:12:25,116 --> 00:12:27,836 Speaker 1: I got was negative attention. And the only way that 204 00:12:27,836 --> 00:12:31,516 Speaker 1: people would pay attention to you, you know, is like 205 00:12:32,716 --> 00:12:37,476 Speaker 1: for being naughty. You know that, um, you're not getting 206 00:12:37,476 --> 00:12:40,196 Speaker 1: the attention for the things that you feel you should be, 207 00:12:40,316 --> 00:12:43,916 Speaker 1: which is like you're smart, or you're clever, or you're 208 00:12:43,996 --> 00:12:47,356 Speaker 1: interesting or you're interested in this thing or whatever. It's like, oh, 209 00:12:47,436 --> 00:12:51,116 Speaker 1: you're you don't suffer fools like that. Like the narrative 210 00:12:51,476 --> 00:12:55,236 Speaker 1: in your own family of origin is like, you know, 211 00:12:55,396 --> 00:12:59,316 Speaker 1: mine was like, oh I'm loud and obnoxious, and it's like, oh, well, 212 00:12:59,676 --> 00:13:04,116 Speaker 1: I'm other things too, guys, Like I always found that 213 00:13:04,156 --> 00:13:06,876 Speaker 1: I was I was not aiming for that at all, 214 00:13:06,916 --> 00:13:09,396 Speaker 1: you know, like I was going out there trying to 215 00:13:09,516 --> 00:13:15,036 Speaker 1: be really charming and lively and fun, and then that 216 00:13:15,076 --> 00:13:19,796 Speaker 1: would get read as obnoxious and overbearing and yeah, loud 217 00:13:19,916 --> 00:13:23,836 Speaker 1: or whatever, erratic, I don't know, and you'd be like, well, 218 00:13:23,956 --> 00:13:26,356 Speaker 1: how how do I bridge that gap between how I'm 219 00:13:26,356 --> 00:13:28,836 Speaker 1: trying to behave and how it's always received? And I 220 00:13:29,476 --> 00:13:31,716 Speaker 1: actually still feel like that quite often now. I still 221 00:13:31,756 --> 00:13:35,796 Speaker 1: sometimes get reactions and I think, wow, that is that 222 00:13:35,916 --> 00:13:40,596 Speaker 1: is not how I read this situation. That is not Yeah. 223 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:43,996 Speaker 1: I remember my career's teacher, like I would feeled in 224 00:13:44,036 --> 00:13:46,396 Speaker 1: a little questionnaire and I've tipped you know, always tries 225 00:13:46,436 --> 00:13:48,756 Speaker 1: to please people, and she, you know, in front of 226 00:13:48,796 --> 00:13:50,996 Speaker 1: the whole class, said I would not have had you 227 00:13:51,036 --> 00:13:52,916 Speaker 1: down as someone that was trying to do that. Catherine, 228 00:13:52,956 --> 00:13:55,756 Speaker 1: Like I always thought, you know, you were deliberately trying 229 00:13:55,796 --> 00:13:58,956 Speaker 1: to be different and yeah, and I was like, oh god, 230 00:13:58,956 --> 00:14:02,676 Speaker 1: that was and it was devastating. I felt really, yes, 231 00:14:03,116 --> 00:14:05,956 Speaker 1: wounded by that, you know, this idea that I was 232 00:14:06,036 --> 00:14:08,716 Speaker 1: deliberately trying to annoy them all. But then I, you know, 233 00:14:08,756 --> 00:14:10,516 Speaker 1: I think that people's way of putting it on you 234 00:14:10,676 --> 00:14:14,796 Speaker 1: rather than them, like you have tried to upset them, 235 00:14:14,916 --> 00:14:19,076 Speaker 1: rather than them not accepting you being a bit different 236 00:14:19,196 --> 00:14:22,516 Speaker 1: to the mainstream. I mean, I don't know about you, 237 00:14:22,556 --> 00:14:26,636 Speaker 1: but getting my diagnosis and understanding more about myself has 238 00:14:26,996 --> 00:14:30,716 Speaker 1: made me more generous to other people because actually I 239 00:14:30,756 --> 00:14:32,996 Speaker 1: have made some of the same assumptions in the past, 240 00:14:33,036 --> 00:14:35,276 Speaker 1: and I would be lying if I said I've always 241 00:14:35,316 --> 00:14:37,956 Speaker 1: been saintly about it. And you know, like now I'm 242 00:14:38,036 --> 00:14:41,116 Speaker 1: much more likely than I was previously to think. Okay, 243 00:14:41,156 --> 00:14:44,956 Speaker 1: Lauren's talking really loudly? Is it? Maybe she has a 244 00:14:44,996 --> 00:14:48,116 Speaker 1: hearing difficulty, Maybe she's really excited, Maybe she's near a 245 00:14:48,116 --> 00:14:51,396 Speaker 1: divergent like me. You know, maybe you know, maybe she's 246 00:14:51,396 --> 00:14:54,076 Speaker 1: had quite a lot of coffee. I'm not going to 247 00:14:54,236 --> 00:14:58,476 Speaker 1: judge it. And it's it's actually really easy to step 248 00:14:58,516 --> 00:15:01,836 Speaker 1: back and to desenter yourself from it, like this is 249 00:15:01,876 --> 00:15:04,596 Speaker 1: not about Lauren attacking me. This is about Lauren being 250 00:15:05,316 --> 00:15:07,796 Speaker 1: something that I wasn't quite expecting. But okay, let's go 251 00:15:07,876 --> 00:15:10,476 Speaker 1: with that. I mean, it it's actually quite simple when 252 00:15:10,476 --> 00:15:14,076 Speaker 1: you start to practice it, but it takes a bit together, right, 253 00:15:14,156 --> 00:15:17,636 Speaker 1: there's some amount of grace I think that can kind 254 00:15:17,676 --> 00:15:21,796 Speaker 1: of come not just towards the world around you, but 255 00:15:21,876 --> 00:15:25,516 Speaker 1: also to yourself. I mean, you know, did you find 256 00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:30,156 Speaker 1: after the diagnosis like you were gentler, kinder, you know, 257 00:15:30,396 --> 00:15:34,636 Speaker 1: more forgiving with yourself? Oh? Absolutely. And I always say that, 258 00:15:35,156 --> 00:15:37,836 Speaker 1: you know, Wintering is the book that I could only 259 00:15:37,916 --> 00:15:42,396 Speaker 1: write after I'd gone through the period of discovery that 260 00:15:42,676 --> 00:15:48,916 Speaker 1: I document in Electricity, because yeah, like reevaluating myself to 261 00:15:49,156 --> 00:15:53,716 Speaker 1: kinder Eyes was I mean absolutely life changing. And it 262 00:15:53,836 --> 00:15:57,556 Speaker 1: meant that a I stopped thinking that I was a 263 00:15:57,636 --> 00:16:01,836 Speaker 1: terrible person, and I started having an explanation for the 264 00:16:01,916 --> 00:16:06,396 Speaker 1: times when I failed in public or whatever, but also 265 00:16:06,556 --> 00:16:10,956 Speaker 1: that I could just start adapting to meet my own needs, 266 00:16:10,956 --> 00:16:14,596 Speaker 1: and that quite often when stuff went really badly for me, 267 00:16:14,956 --> 00:16:17,556 Speaker 1: I could see that it was because I'd pushed myself 268 00:16:17,676 --> 00:16:21,556 Speaker 1: past what was comfortable or what was manageable for me, 269 00:16:21,676 --> 00:16:24,276 Speaker 1: you know, like I'd put myself in a very noisy environment, 270 00:16:24,396 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 1: or I'd worked for too long and had too many 271 00:16:27,636 --> 00:16:30,676 Speaker 1: conversations in the day, or there was one incident that 272 00:16:30,716 --> 00:16:33,436 Speaker 1: I keep remembering where I lost my temper at work 273 00:16:34,356 --> 00:16:36,836 Speaker 1: and at the time I had a really itchy label 274 00:16:36,876 --> 00:16:39,836 Speaker 1: in the back of my dress and I'd always yeah, 275 00:16:39,836 --> 00:16:44,756 Speaker 1: because that's huge when it sounds tiny, but it's massive. 276 00:16:44,996 --> 00:16:47,796 Speaker 1: And I remember being in this quite tense conversation and 277 00:16:47,956 --> 00:16:50,276 Speaker 1: feeling this label and feeling this label and feeling this 278 00:16:50,316 --> 00:16:52,676 Speaker 1: label it felt like it was burning through my skin, 279 00:16:52,716 --> 00:16:54,516 Speaker 1: and I reached back and as I was talking, I 280 00:16:54,676 --> 00:16:58,116 Speaker 1: ripped it out of my dress, just at the time 281 00:16:58,156 --> 00:17:01,516 Speaker 1: when I was like offending someone. And it was this 282 00:17:01,596 --> 00:17:04,116 Speaker 1: moment of this complete loss of control that I felt 283 00:17:04,116 --> 00:17:06,916 Speaker 1: so humiliated for afterwards, because it looked like I'd got 284 00:17:06,956 --> 00:17:10,676 Speaker 1: so angry I'd torn my own thing, and it was 285 00:17:10,716 --> 00:17:13,756 Speaker 1: actually the other way round, that I was so overwhelmed 286 00:17:13,756 --> 00:17:18,956 Speaker 1: by this really really itchy label that I couldn't control, 287 00:17:19,116 --> 00:17:21,996 Speaker 1: I couldn't self regulate. And that's I mean, that's such 288 00:17:22,036 --> 00:17:24,396 Speaker 1: a distillation of what it is to be autistic, like 289 00:17:24,516 --> 00:17:28,476 Speaker 1: losing your self regulation because you're totally overwhelmed by something 290 00:17:28,516 --> 00:17:33,676 Speaker 1: that other people will think is minute, and like getting 291 00:17:33,716 --> 00:17:35,636 Speaker 1: my diagnosis, that was the thing that was one of 292 00:17:35,636 --> 00:17:37,716 Speaker 1: the first things I kept going back to that moment. 293 00:17:37,756 --> 00:17:41,076 Speaker 1: It was so telling for me suddenly, but as I 294 00:17:41,116 --> 00:17:45,316 Speaker 1: got older, I got better at suppressing those disregulated moments, 295 00:17:45,396 --> 00:17:48,076 Speaker 1: but it meant that I got sick instead, you know, 296 00:17:48,156 --> 00:17:51,036 Speaker 1: so it meant that I would suddenly get an absolutely 297 00:17:51,116 --> 00:17:53,356 Speaker 1: terrible headache, or I would have to take to my 298 00:17:53,436 --> 00:17:57,596 Speaker 1: bed the next day, or you know, like it internalized 299 00:17:57,636 --> 00:18:00,156 Speaker 1: it and of course affecting my mental health very badly. 300 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:04,196 Speaker 1: So you kind of don't win either way until you're 301 00:18:04,276 --> 00:18:07,316 Speaker 1: able to take control of your own self regulation, really, 302 00:18:08,036 --> 00:18:11,356 Speaker 1: and that's that's your game. Ra. But yeah, I look 303 00:18:11,396 --> 00:18:13,476 Speaker 1: back on some moments in my life and I think 304 00:18:14,396 --> 00:18:17,316 Speaker 1: I understand that now. But wow, I was as baffled 305 00:18:17,316 --> 00:18:19,956 Speaker 1: as everyone else was by that behavior in that moment. 306 00:18:19,996 --> 00:18:22,596 Speaker 1: I didn't have any way of explaining it right, right, 307 00:18:22,636 --> 00:18:24,996 Speaker 1: I think. For for you know, when I started thinking 308 00:18:24,996 --> 00:18:27,116 Speaker 1: about autism, I was like, my gosh, if I do 309 00:18:27,236 --> 00:18:31,596 Speaker 1: an accounting of all of the outsized reactions that I've 310 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:36,316 Speaker 1: had to things, it should have been obvious, but no 311 00:18:36,356 --> 00:18:39,316 Speaker 1: one thinks of it. As you have big feelings or 312 00:18:39,396 --> 00:18:44,636 Speaker 1: you have that you have a challenge regulating your big feelings, 313 00:18:44,796 --> 00:18:49,716 Speaker 1: it's that like you're being obstreperous, that you're being difficult 314 00:18:50,996 --> 00:18:54,476 Speaker 1: or you know, racalcitrant or whatever. It's just like it's 315 00:18:54,476 --> 00:18:57,916 Speaker 1: always on a on you as opposed to you know, 316 00:18:58,956 --> 00:19:05,116 Speaker 1: having some empathy around like, Okay, clearly this isn't typical behavior, 317 00:19:05,156 --> 00:19:08,756 Speaker 1: and so this person is clearly going through something. And 318 00:19:08,796 --> 00:19:12,476 Speaker 1: it's interesting. I mean, do you find that now that 319 00:19:12,556 --> 00:19:16,596 Speaker 1: you have been diagnosed, so you've been public about your diagnosis, 320 00:19:16,676 --> 00:19:21,476 Speaker 1: that people around you are like, oh, okay, I get 321 00:19:21,516 --> 00:19:26,556 Speaker 1: it now, or are they still like, like, what is 322 00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:30,756 Speaker 1: her problem? I mean half and half honestly, And I 323 00:19:30,796 --> 00:19:34,036 Speaker 1: think a lot depends on the individual's understanding of autism, 324 00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:37,556 Speaker 1: you know, because for some people it makes them really 325 00:19:37,716 --> 00:19:41,996 Speaker 1: angry because as far as they're concerned, what autism is 326 00:19:41,996 --> 00:19:45,556 Speaker 1: is like a non speaking child who they would consider 327 00:19:45,636 --> 00:19:51,596 Speaker 1: to be like intellectually disabled and like unable to communicate 328 00:19:51,716 --> 00:19:53,956 Speaker 1: or to do any work. And you know that's a 329 00:19:54,596 --> 00:19:58,716 Speaker 1: it's an inaccurate understanding of autism for so many reasons anyway, 330 00:19:59,476 --> 00:20:02,596 Speaker 1: But what they you know, so then when they hear 331 00:20:02,636 --> 00:20:06,436 Speaker 1: me sound autistic, they think it's some bizarre play for attention, 332 00:20:06,756 --> 00:20:09,716 Speaker 1: and you know, find it offensive almost you know that 333 00:20:09,916 --> 00:20:15,036 Speaker 1: I'm trying to steal oxygen from yes, people who need it, 334 00:20:15,476 --> 00:20:18,916 Speaker 1: right right, I mean, I've I've noticed that, like so, 335 00:20:19,076 --> 00:20:21,196 Speaker 1: I mean, I had the experience of coming out as 336 00:20:21,236 --> 00:20:25,316 Speaker 1: as gay and out pretty it was pretty easy. Well, 337 00:20:25,316 --> 00:20:27,356 Speaker 1: it was pretty easy. I mean except with my parents. 338 00:20:27,356 --> 00:20:28,836 Speaker 1: Like when I told my mom that I was gay, 339 00:20:28,876 --> 00:20:32,956 Speaker 1: she said whatever, and that wasn't like the best response. 340 00:20:33,516 --> 00:20:36,796 Speaker 1: But everybody generally in my life has been like fine. 341 00:20:36,836 --> 00:20:38,516 Speaker 1: I mean my brother, like I told my brother first, 342 00:20:38,516 --> 00:20:41,076 Speaker 1: like he doesn't care, or like my parents just generally 343 00:20:41,116 --> 00:20:43,956 Speaker 1: like I'm friends, I mean whatever. Now my most of 344 00:20:43,996 --> 00:20:47,636 Speaker 1: my friends or queer people or queer adjacent people, you know, 345 00:20:47,876 --> 00:20:50,196 Speaker 1: and so it's not a big deal. But I think that, 346 00:20:50,516 --> 00:20:53,556 Speaker 1: but everybody knows what it means to be gay. If 347 00:20:53,636 --> 00:20:56,236 Speaker 1: you say I'm gay, people get it. I mean, people 348 00:20:56,316 --> 00:20:59,676 Speaker 1: don't know what it means to be autistic. But I wonder, 349 00:20:59,796 --> 00:21:04,116 Speaker 1: like how you have both dealt with you know, your 350 00:21:04,156 --> 00:21:07,556 Speaker 1: own personal revelation and your own personal truth, but then 351 00:21:07,716 --> 00:21:12,556 Speaker 1: also educating people about what that means more globally. Yeah, 352 00:21:12,596 --> 00:21:16,436 Speaker 1: I mean it's such a massive issue because, yeah, you're 353 00:21:16,476 --> 00:21:20,076 Speaker 1: absolutely right, Like, if you say you're gay, people understand 354 00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:24,036 Speaker 1: what gaining is. If you say you have schizophrenia, there's 355 00:21:24,076 --> 00:21:28,676 Speaker 1: a stable definition of that. But with autism, there isn't 356 00:21:28,716 --> 00:21:32,316 Speaker 1: even a stable definition in the psychological literature at the moment. 357 00:21:32,356 --> 00:21:35,836 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not even just like that folk understanding 358 00:21:35,996 --> 00:21:40,636 Speaker 1: diverges from you know, medical understanding or psychiatric understanding or 359 00:21:40,636 --> 00:21:44,796 Speaker 1: psychological understanding or how you want to put it. It's actually, 360 00:21:44,996 --> 00:21:47,676 Speaker 1: if you ask people working in the field at the moment, 361 00:21:47,796 --> 00:21:49,956 Speaker 1: they feel like the definition is thrown up in the 362 00:21:49,996 --> 00:21:53,276 Speaker 1: air as well, because they're under beginning to understand that 363 00:21:54,036 --> 00:21:56,556 Speaker 1: they were working on the wrong paradigms before, and they 364 00:21:56,596 --> 00:22:01,436 Speaker 1: were working on these external observation modalities that were based 365 00:22:01,556 --> 00:22:03,396 Speaker 1: on you know, like the research was done on eight 366 00:22:03,476 --> 00:22:06,876 Speaker 1: year old white boys, middle class boys in particular as well, 367 00:22:07,396 --> 00:22:09,956 Speaker 1: and the assumption was they were likely to be non verbal. 368 00:22:10,196 --> 00:22:15,716 Speaker 1: And it's so it's so hard to be part of 369 00:22:15,796 --> 00:22:19,116 Speaker 1: remaking that definition because I do feel like I'm part 370 00:22:19,196 --> 00:22:23,436 Speaker 1: of that in a very kind of crowdsource way. And 371 00:22:23,556 --> 00:22:26,516 Speaker 1: so I mean, like I would love to say that 372 00:22:26,556 --> 00:22:29,356 Speaker 1: I'm going out there boldly and explaining my autism to everyone, 373 00:22:29,436 --> 00:22:32,036 Speaker 1: but I still mask it a lot in situations where 374 00:22:32,036 --> 00:22:35,556 Speaker 1: it doesn't feel safe and where I can't Yeah, you know, 375 00:22:35,556 --> 00:22:38,836 Speaker 1: I can't trust that understanding to be there. But I 376 00:22:38,916 --> 00:22:41,196 Speaker 1: have been. I mean, I've been working on a page 377 00:22:41,196 --> 00:22:44,196 Speaker 1: on my website recently. I thought about it and I 378 00:22:44,196 --> 00:22:47,836 Speaker 1: thought I need to write my own definition of autism 379 00:22:47,836 --> 00:22:51,196 Speaker 1: as I understand it right now, because there's no one 380 00:22:51,276 --> 00:22:54,756 Speaker 1: source that I can even turn to to quote. And 381 00:22:55,476 --> 00:22:57,756 Speaker 1: that's where we are right now, and it's a it's 382 00:22:57,756 --> 00:23:01,756 Speaker 1: a difficult place to be, but it's also quite an 383 00:23:01,756 --> 00:23:07,596 Speaker 1: exciting place to be. You know that the debate is 384 00:23:07,596 --> 00:23:11,276 Speaker 1: is happening, and finally we are we are being part 385 00:23:11,316 --> 00:23:16,916 Speaker 1: of that debate. And yeah, there's we're learning and it's 386 00:23:17,076 --> 00:23:20,516 Speaker 1: you know, what we understand as autism now will not 387 00:23:20,596 --> 00:23:23,276 Speaker 1: be the same in twenty years time. We need to 388 00:23:23,316 --> 00:23:26,356 Speaker 1: know that, you know, we need to know that we 389 00:23:27,076 --> 00:23:30,276 Speaker 1: do not fully get this yet, and there's much more 390 00:23:30,276 --> 00:23:32,436 Speaker 1: to discover and there's much more to pin down and 391 00:23:32,516 --> 00:23:38,076 Speaker 1: to unpick. And so yeah, I think sometimes I do 392 00:23:38,116 --> 00:23:40,876 Speaker 1: sit down and explain to people, but I do find 393 00:23:40,876 --> 00:23:46,676 Speaker 1: it exhausting, and I am increasingly kind to myself about 394 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:51,036 Speaker 1: not feeling like I've got to be responsible for every 395 00:23:51,356 --> 00:23:57,956 Speaker 1: ignorant person's understanding of what autism is, you know. But 396 00:23:58,076 --> 00:24:01,076 Speaker 1: I also wanted to contribute my own definition as I 397 00:24:01,156 --> 00:24:03,196 Speaker 1: understand it at the moment and to you know, like 398 00:24:03,316 --> 00:24:07,276 Speaker 1: I equally feel compassion for people who have come in 399 00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:10,236 Speaker 1: has stumbled into this world. And don't understand it. So 400 00:24:10,836 --> 00:24:13,036 Speaker 1: where does that leave them? Like how can I help 401 00:24:13,116 --> 00:24:16,956 Speaker 1: them to come to a more generous realization about what 402 00:24:17,076 --> 00:24:23,756 Speaker 1: autism actually is. It's that's a lot, that's very that's 403 00:24:23,756 --> 00:24:27,596 Speaker 1: a lot of weight because it's hard because I mean, 404 00:24:27,636 --> 00:24:30,516 Speaker 1: I know this, I keep comparing it to like gayness 405 00:24:30,676 --> 00:24:33,276 Speaker 1: or whatever. But in the early days, like I mean 406 00:24:33,996 --> 00:24:36,436 Speaker 1: and probably like two thousand, you know, when I was 407 00:24:36,436 --> 00:24:39,276 Speaker 1: in a workplace and I people knew that I was gay, 408 00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:41,156 Speaker 1: Like the comments that I would get real be like 409 00:24:41,396 --> 00:24:45,196 Speaker 1: shocking even then, even like just twenty years ago, Like 410 00:24:45,756 --> 00:24:50,716 Speaker 1: you know, people just were so weird, and I thought, 411 00:24:50,996 --> 00:24:56,476 Speaker 1: you know, is it my job to fix your homophobia? 412 00:24:56,676 --> 00:24:58,756 Speaker 1: Like is it my job? Or can I just like 413 00:24:58,916 --> 00:25:01,836 Speaker 1: live my life? Can I just like, can I just 414 00:25:01,876 --> 00:25:05,916 Speaker 1: show up as my authentic self? And in that way, 415 00:25:05,996 --> 00:25:09,316 Speaker 1: that is my advocacy. In that way, that is the 416 00:25:09,356 --> 00:25:14,036 Speaker 1: way that I'm helping is by just being open about 417 00:25:14,076 --> 00:25:17,756 Speaker 1: who I am but not having to like fix everyone else. 418 00:25:18,876 --> 00:25:21,916 Speaker 1: I don't know, It's it's really tricky. It is tricky, 419 00:25:22,076 --> 00:25:24,196 Speaker 1: and I you know, like I think you have to 420 00:25:24,236 --> 00:25:26,796 Speaker 1: remind yourself that you are not the homophobe whisperer, like 421 00:25:26,916 --> 00:25:30,516 Speaker 1: it's not your job to coax them into I wish 422 00:25:30,556 --> 00:25:33,676 Speaker 1: I was. I wish I was the homophobe puncher. I 423 00:25:33,716 --> 00:25:38,036 Speaker 1: wish I was the homophobe kicker, you know. But yeah, no, no, 424 00:25:38,196 --> 00:25:41,156 Speaker 1: it's true, Yeah that it's too much. But like I 425 00:25:41,196 --> 00:25:43,716 Speaker 1: also so, yeah, so I let myself off and I 426 00:25:44,036 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 1: try and be part of the bigger debate rather than 427 00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:49,316 Speaker 1: the micro debate, because it's those micro debates that's exhausting. 428 00:25:50,196 --> 00:25:54,716 Speaker 1: But I also, um, well, I suppose two things. One 429 00:25:54,836 --> 00:25:59,916 Speaker 1: is that I refuse to do press that is going 430 00:25:59,996 --> 00:26:04,196 Speaker 1: to be about, you know, like challenging my right to exist, 431 00:26:04,276 --> 00:26:08,556 Speaker 1: you know. And I won't do press with people who 432 00:26:08,596 --> 00:26:12,916 Speaker 1: are and access, for example, because in a very real sense, 433 00:26:12,956 --> 00:26:15,516 Speaker 1: they want me eradicated from the gene pool, and I 434 00:26:15,556 --> 00:26:17,756 Speaker 1: am not. I don't have to sit at a table 435 00:26:18,116 --> 00:26:22,396 Speaker 1: with those people. It's not reasonable for my mental health 436 00:26:22,436 --> 00:26:25,876 Speaker 1: to do that. But I also flip it back on 437 00:26:25,956 --> 00:26:28,396 Speaker 1: myself a little and try and remind myself of the 438 00:26:28,436 --> 00:26:32,196 Speaker 1: gaps in my knowledge and understanding, you know, like absolutely, 439 00:26:32,396 --> 00:26:35,196 Speaker 1: do I understand what it is to be black and autistic? 440 00:26:35,516 --> 00:26:37,436 Speaker 1: You know? Do I understand what it is to be 441 00:26:37,516 --> 00:26:40,716 Speaker 1: trans an autistic? That's a that's a really common combination. 442 00:26:41,676 --> 00:26:45,116 Speaker 1: Do I understand what it is to be non verbal autistic? 443 00:26:45,196 --> 00:26:47,596 Speaker 1: You know? So I try and remind myself with the 444 00:26:47,596 --> 00:26:50,316 Speaker 1: ways that I need to listen harder to in the 445 00:26:50,356 --> 00:26:54,236 Speaker 1: way that I want people to listen to me. Right, right, Well, 446 00:26:54,276 --> 00:26:56,876 Speaker 1: I've been sort of thinking a lot about my own 447 00:26:56,916 --> 00:27:01,316 Speaker 1: ableism and how in my mind, like when I was 448 00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:04,396 Speaker 1: first thinking about artism, I was like, I can't be artistic. 449 00:27:04,476 --> 00:27:06,636 Speaker 1: I own a home and I have a house. Yes, 450 00:27:07,196 --> 00:27:09,436 Speaker 1: I own a home, and I have a job, and 451 00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:11,756 Speaker 1: like I have a partner, and like I'm totally normal. 452 00:27:11,796 --> 00:27:13,916 Speaker 1: And it's like, why do you think that those things 453 00:27:14,436 --> 00:27:17,636 Speaker 1: don't go along with a disability? Like what are you? 454 00:27:17,676 --> 00:27:20,956 Speaker 1: And I think you're right. It's like the combinations and 455 00:27:20,996 --> 00:27:24,156 Speaker 1: the intersectionality of all of this is, you know, much 456 00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:28,396 Speaker 1: more complicated than you know, just some some some white 457 00:27:28,436 --> 00:27:33,356 Speaker 1: ladies who think differently. Yeah, so true. And not to minimize, 458 00:27:33,596 --> 00:27:36,756 Speaker 1: not to minimize, but we can do this in relative safety, right. 459 00:27:36,796 --> 00:27:39,036 Speaker 1: We can have these conversations because of the kinds of 460 00:27:39,156 --> 00:27:42,676 Speaker 1: jobs that we're in and because we're white, and you know, 461 00:27:42,716 --> 00:27:45,876 Speaker 1: because we're relatively middle class or what you know, whatever. 462 00:27:45,956 --> 00:27:48,676 Speaker 1: It is like it's it's a privilege to be able 463 00:27:48,716 --> 00:27:52,476 Speaker 1: to have these conversations and other people out there wouldn't 464 00:27:52,476 --> 00:27:55,756 Speaker 1: feel safe to do this, you know. And that's yes, 465 00:27:56,276 --> 00:27:58,196 Speaker 1: that's something that I think we often need to bear 466 00:27:58,196 --> 00:28:00,316 Speaker 1: in mind because I think it's really easy for us 467 00:28:00,316 --> 00:28:05,436 Speaker 1: to raise other other people within this very very fragile community. 468 00:28:05,436 --> 00:28:08,316 Speaker 1: And I'm you know, I haven't always been as conscious 469 00:28:08,316 --> 00:28:10,596 Speaker 1: of that as I am at this point, and I 470 00:28:10,636 --> 00:28:14,316 Speaker 1: hope I get more conscious about it as I go along. Right, 471 00:28:15,596 --> 00:28:18,436 Speaker 1: I learned, I mean, I've learned so many things from 472 00:28:18,476 --> 00:28:22,116 Speaker 1: your book, but one thing was the Maori word for 473 00:28:22,156 --> 00:28:28,516 Speaker 1: autism takeo watana, the idea of your own time and space. 474 00:28:30,396 --> 00:28:34,396 Speaker 1: And you know, and you have this like you have 475 00:28:34,476 --> 00:28:38,516 Speaker 1: this beautiful line that like you learn for that place, 476 00:28:38,836 --> 00:28:42,796 Speaker 1: you know, without having ever known it yourself, and like 477 00:28:43,036 --> 00:28:46,156 Speaker 1: can you get there at this point in your life? 478 00:28:46,236 --> 00:28:50,756 Speaker 1: Can you find your own time and space now? Or 479 00:28:50,876 --> 00:28:53,396 Speaker 1: is it too late? And I wonder if you've you've 480 00:28:53,556 --> 00:28:58,476 Speaker 1: answered that for yourself a little more? Yeah, And I 481 00:28:58,516 --> 00:29:01,436 Speaker 1: think I am beginning. It's you know, like it it's 482 00:29:01,476 --> 00:29:04,276 Speaker 1: almost a bit like learning to take up the space 483 00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:08,396 Speaker 1: that you need. Like it all comes together for me 484 00:29:08,716 --> 00:29:12,636 Speaker 1: into this idea that I need to be allowed to 485 00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:15,796 Speaker 1: take up my shape of space in the world and 486 00:29:15,836 --> 00:29:19,036 Speaker 1: that might be a different shape to other people's. And 487 00:29:19,116 --> 00:29:23,036 Speaker 1: I'm getting better at it, and like I have to 488 00:29:23,196 --> 00:29:26,836 Speaker 1: enter into it quite mindfully to remind myself of what 489 00:29:26,876 --> 00:29:29,916 Speaker 1: I feel like I need, because having suppressed it for 490 00:29:29,956 --> 00:29:32,396 Speaker 1: so long, I'm not always aware of it myself, you know. 491 00:29:32,436 --> 00:29:35,236 Speaker 1: And I feel like I'm growing into it, and I 492 00:29:35,236 --> 00:29:39,916 Speaker 1: feel like I'm making more and more changes to my 493 00:29:39,996 --> 00:29:42,756 Speaker 1: life that mean I can live in exactly the way 494 00:29:42,756 --> 00:29:46,116 Speaker 1: that I want to and need to. But it's definitely 495 00:29:46,156 --> 00:29:48,956 Speaker 1: a work in progress, and I think it will be forever. 496 00:29:49,796 --> 00:29:53,316 Speaker 1: What are those changes, I'm curious. Well, you know, I've stopped. 497 00:29:53,436 --> 00:29:55,836 Speaker 1: I stopped working in the university that I was working 498 00:29:55,876 --> 00:29:59,996 Speaker 1: in when I was writing Electricity, and I began to 499 00:30:00,036 --> 00:30:03,036 Speaker 1: think about how I wanted to shape my days and 500 00:30:03,076 --> 00:30:06,276 Speaker 1: how often I wanted to be in silent, how often 501 00:30:06,316 --> 00:30:10,756 Speaker 1: I wanted to walk and get outside, like how often 502 00:30:10,796 --> 00:30:14,916 Speaker 1: I wanted to actually socialize, what the balance was in 503 00:30:15,396 --> 00:30:17,716 Speaker 1: the way that I even practiced my writing, you know, 504 00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:20,516 Speaker 1: because for me, it's not all about output. It's about 505 00:30:20,556 --> 00:30:25,236 Speaker 1: the pleasure of obsessing over certain things and inputting and 506 00:30:25,316 --> 00:30:29,156 Speaker 1: sort of drinking and information in that very autistic information 507 00:30:29,236 --> 00:30:35,596 Speaker 1: hungry way. But you know, also I increasingly try and 508 00:30:35,756 --> 00:30:39,436 Speaker 1: explain what I need in the moment to people, you know, 509 00:30:39,476 --> 00:30:42,436 Speaker 1: and say, I'm finding this really noisy right now, I'm 510 00:30:42,436 --> 00:30:44,356 Speaker 1: really sorry, I'm going to have to step outside, or 511 00:30:44,436 --> 00:30:48,156 Speaker 1: would you mind turning it down, or you know whatever 512 00:30:48,196 --> 00:30:50,996 Speaker 1: that that particular issue is at the time. And I 513 00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:56,276 Speaker 1: am getting better at just trying to simply state my needs, 514 00:30:57,196 --> 00:31:02,236 Speaker 1: but it's very imperfect still, and I still regularly find 515 00:31:02,356 --> 00:31:08,076 Speaker 1: myself suppressing that need because you know, I share embarrassment 516 00:31:08,156 --> 00:31:12,956 Speaker 1: or politeness, yes, yeah, and the embarrassment I mean, or 517 00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:15,716 Speaker 1: like somebody else is going to be put out. I mean, 518 00:31:16,236 --> 00:31:18,836 Speaker 1: I remember one time a lady was like bouncing her 519 00:31:18,836 --> 00:31:21,436 Speaker 1: foot up and down on this chair, like the leg 520 00:31:21,476 --> 00:31:24,236 Speaker 1: of a chair, and the chair with leg was broken 521 00:31:24,316 --> 00:31:27,516 Speaker 1: and it was making terrible, terrible scratching noises, but she 522 00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:29,836 Speaker 1: couldn't hear it because she had her headphones in, and 523 00:31:29,876 --> 00:31:32,156 Speaker 1: so I thought it was totally reasonable to just go 524 00:31:32,196 --> 00:31:34,076 Speaker 1: over and be like, hey, I'm not sure if you know, 525 00:31:34,116 --> 00:31:36,356 Speaker 1: but the chair's broken and it's making this noise. And 526 00:31:36,396 --> 00:31:39,076 Speaker 1: she looked at me like I had five eyeballs, and 527 00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:42,516 Speaker 1: she was like she was basically like with her eyes 528 00:31:42,636 --> 00:31:46,276 Speaker 1: saying like, go back to your seat right now. And 529 00:31:47,356 --> 00:31:49,996 Speaker 1: so I'm I've, you know, I feel like I've I'm 530 00:31:50,036 --> 00:31:53,116 Speaker 1: getting to this point where I'm there's a lot of 531 00:31:53,116 --> 00:31:58,716 Speaker 1: work to just like one recognize the trigger and two 532 00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:03,476 Speaker 1: fix it for yourself, because there is embarrassment because people 533 00:32:03,516 --> 00:32:06,516 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I often think like if I 534 00:32:06,596 --> 00:32:09,236 Speaker 1: get on an airplane and I get put in a 535 00:32:09,236 --> 00:32:12,596 Speaker 1: window seat which I can't sit in, and I say 536 00:32:12,636 --> 00:32:16,596 Speaker 1: to the flight attendant, like in in my fantasy autism land, 537 00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:18,476 Speaker 1: I say to the flight tenant, I'm not going to 538 00:32:18,516 --> 00:32:20,436 Speaker 1: be able to sit there because I'm autistic and I 539 00:32:20,476 --> 00:32:25,636 Speaker 1: have extreme panic around these particular spaces. And if you 540 00:32:25,636 --> 00:32:28,596 Speaker 1: could just move me to an aisle, and she would say, 541 00:32:28,636 --> 00:32:31,756 Speaker 1: oh absolutely, I'm so happy to help you back in 542 00:32:31,796 --> 00:32:36,356 Speaker 1: the real world, right right. And so one episode is 543 00:32:36,436 --> 00:32:40,356 Speaker 1: that autism fantasy land, Like what would your autistic fantasyland 544 00:32:40,956 --> 00:32:43,916 Speaker 1: look like, where like you could move through your day 545 00:32:44,396 --> 00:32:48,956 Speaker 1: without any hitches of any kind, Like for Catherine, what 546 00:32:48,956 --> 00:32:51,956 Speaker 1: would it look like like everywhere I would be quiet, 547 00:32:52,116 --> 00:32:57,196 Speaker 1: nobody'd be wearing slum perfume, nobody would touch me, like 548 00:32:57,596 --> 00:33:00,956 Speaker 1: barge into me in the street, or like tap me 549 00:33:00,956 --> 00:33:04,276 Speaker 1: on the shoulder to get my attention or I hate that. 550 00:33:06,436 --> 00:33:08,836 Speaker 1: But actually it would probably mostly take place in a 551 00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:11,876 Speaker 1: been in the woods, completely on my own, you know. 552 00:33:12,596 --> 00:33:16,196 Speaker 1: But like it's really interesting you raised that because I 553 00:33:16,236 --> 00:33:21,116 Speaker 1: do think that within the autistic community, we can get 554 00:33:21,156 --> 00:33:25,036 Speaker 1: into the headspace of thinking that that world is possible, 555 00:33:25,156 --> 00:33:27,516 Speaker 1: you know, like if only the world would adapt to us, 556 00:33:28,276 --> 00:33:30,956 Speaker 1: and I I think we have to question that a 557 00:33:30,956 --> 00:33:33,556 Speaker 1: little bit because I think there's like a halfway point 558 00:33:33,636 --> 00:33:36,996 Speaker 1: that we need to find. So, I mean, you're you're 559 00:33:37,076 --> 00:33:41,436 Speaker 1: some years out from your diagnosis. I'm like one year out. 560 00:33:41,596 --> 00:33:45,996 Speaker 1: I wonder, like where where you are now? You've written 561 00:33:45,996 --> 00:33:48,756 Speaker 1: a book, You've you've processed to see've written two books. 562 00:33:48,756 --> 00:33:52,236 Speaker 1: You had a massive hit, uh you know, which might 563 00:33:52,276 --> 00:33:54,956 Speaker 1: not have anything to do with you know, autism. I 564 00:33:54,956 --> 00:33:57,276 Speaker 1: mean it probably changed a lot of things for you. 565 00:33:57,876 --> 00:34:01,516 Speaker 1: But like where are you now? Well, I mean I 566 00:34:01,556 --> 00:34:03,596 Speaker 1: think like one of the things is I'm kind of 567 00:34:03,716 --> 00:34:07,676 Speaker 1: post obsession with it, Like I've I've absorbed a lot 568 00:34:07,716 --> 00:34:10,996 Speaker 1: about it and the obs where it has waned, Like 569 00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:13,796 Speaker 1: I've kind of I've got to the point where I 570 00:34:13,836 --> 00:34:18,276 Speaker 1: just want to live as the person I am and 571 00:34:18,356 --> 00:34:21,236 Speaker 1: not have to constantly reflect on it. And every now 572 00:34:21,236 --> 00:34:25,356 Speaker 1: and then I'm reminded of my differences in a way 573 00:34:25,356 --> 00:34:29,436 Speaker 1: that really surprises me. Like I've made so many changes 574 00:34:29,436 --> 00:34:32,236 Speaker 1: to my life now that it's often invisible to me 575 00:34:32,276 --> 00:34:35,236 Speaker 1: that I am, you know, different in any way at all. 576 00:34:35,236 --> 00:34:37,316 Speaker 1: Like I don't have to bang my head up against 577 00:34:37,356 --> 00:34:40,956 Speaker 1: it every day like I used to, and every now 578 00:34:40,996 --> 00:34:43,396 Speaker 1: and then, like my level of sort of disability in 579 00:34:43,436 --> 00:34:46,156 Speaker 1: the world really shocks me. I'm kind of really confronted 580 00:34:46,236 --> 00:34:49,796 Speaker 1: by it, and I find it almost quite upsetting all 581 00:34:49,796 --> 00:34:53,876 Speaker 1: over again, you know, like, oh wow, I can't deal 582 00:34:53,916 --> 00:34:56,636 Speaker 1: with this. Oh God. You know, I thought I was 583 00:34:56,716 --> 00:35:01,756 Speaker 1: kind of fine forever now, And like, in lots of ways, 584 00:35:01,796 --> 00:35:03,756 Speaker 1: that's kind of a nice place to be. It's nicer, 585 00:35:03,796 --> 00:35:05,716 Speaker 1: and it sounds because it means that most of the 586 00:35:05,756 --> 00:35:08,636 Speaker 1: time things are working, you know, I have to really 587 00:35:08,636 --> 00:35:13,996 Speaker 1: remind myself that I am in need of support sometimes 588 00:35:13,996 --> 00:35:17,356 Speaker 1: and that I deserve to access it. Electricity came out 589 00:35:17,396 --> 00:35:20,916 Speaker 1: in the UK I think twenty eighteen, so nearly four 590 00:35:20,996 --> 00:35:25,196 Speaker 1: years ago, and so it's been quite strange to return 591 00:35:25,236 --> 00:35:27,956 Speaker 1: to talking to it now. That the US edition has 592 00:35:27,996 --> 00:35:34,156 Speaker 1: been released, because I felt almost bodily reluctant to return 593 00:35:34,276 --> 00:35:37,116 Speaker 1: to talking about that stuff, if I'm honest. It felt 594 00:35:38,036 --> 00:35:42,756 Speaker 1: kind of exhausting to tool back there, and my brain 595 00:35:42,956 --> 00:35:45,996 Speaker 1: was very reluctant to go there. But it's actually been 596 00:35:46,076 --> 00:35:48,356 Speaker 1: really good for me to start talking about it again. 597 00:35:48,516 --> 00:35:52,196 Speaker 1: And like that feeling of how far you've traveled, and 598 00:35:52,276 --> 00:35:56,396 Speaker 1: that feeling of changes that you've cemented into you that 599 00:35:56,436 --> 00:36:01,436 Speaker 1: you hadn't noticed even happening, and the feeling that you 600 00:36:01,476 --> 00:36:03,636 Speaker 1: have something to pass on to the next generation of 601 00:36:03,636 --> 00:36:07,916 Speaker 1: people coming through. I think that's that's a really wonderful 602 00:36:07,916 --> 00:36:11,756 Speaker 1: place to be actually. So yeah, I'm proudly and happily autistic, 603 00:36:11,796 --> 00:36:13,756 Speaker 1: and I don't have the doubts that I once had 604 00:36:13,756 --> 00:36:18,676 Speaker 1: on the imposter syndrome certainly. Katherine May is the New 605 00:36:18,716 --> 00:36:22,356 Speaker 1: York Times best selling author of Wintering, The Power of 606 00:36:22,436 --> 00:36:27,356 Speaker 1: Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times, and the Electricity of 607 00:36:27,436 --> 00:36:30,676 Speaker 1: Every Living Thing, a Woman's walk in the wild to 608 00:36:30,796 --> 00:36:34,396 Speaker 1: find her way home. She lives in Whitstable on the 609 00:36:34,596 --> 00:36:37,876 Speaker 1: Kentish coast of England. You can find her online at 610 00:36:38,036 --> 00:36:42,436 Speaker 1: Katherine hyphen May dot co dot uk. This episode was 611 00:36:42,476 --> 00:36:46,316 Speaker 1: produced by David Jah and edited by Sophie Crane mix 612 00:36:46,396 --> 00:36:50,036 Speaker 1: Engineering by Jake Gorsky. Special thanks to Lisa Dunn for 613 00:36:50,156 --> 00:36:53,156 Speaker 1: booking help, and thanks to your friend for listening.