WEBVTT - Dr. John Singer Full Interview 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.000 This podcast is sponsored by Better Help Online Therapy. I'm 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:07.680 Michleine Malouf and I'm Nadya Adessi, licensed therapists and hosts 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:10.200 of Getting Better Stories of Mental Health. Join us for 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:13.560 discussions with Megan Trainer, Chris Bosh, Rebel Wilson, and more, 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:17.400 from discussing motherhood to immigrating to general mental health. Our 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:20.720 guests are awe inspiring. We all struggle with the same things, 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:23.640 so let's talk about it and de stigmatize them. Find 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:26.799 our new podcast, Getting Better Stories of Mental Health on 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:32.920 iHeart Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Still living in manually taking notes, 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:34.639 there is a better way to start the new year 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.000 with auto dot ai automatically get meeting notes. Auto dot 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.839 ai works for virtual meetings like Zoom, Microsoft Teams, and 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:42.640 Google Meet. Sign up on the web for free or 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.199 download in the app stores auto dot ai That's O 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:49.040 T T E R dot Ai. The Black Effect Presents 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:53.400 features honest conversations and exclusive interviews, a space for artists, 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:57.800 everyday people and listeners to amplify, elevate, and empower black 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:01.400 voices with great conversations. Make sure to listen to The 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:05.240 Black Effect Presents podcast on I Heart Radio, Apple podcasts 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:11.120 or wherever you get your podcasts. And Human Development at 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:16.479 Texas A and M again, Texas and M Central University, Houston, 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:18.920 So you know I know about that that that Texas 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.080 A and M experience. The College of Education and Human 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:24.319 Development at Texas A and M has a mission of 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:28.479 enriching and transforming lives through education and health and developing 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:33.400 leaders and professionals and education, sports, business, healthcare, and related 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.360 fields and industries. He's on the show today discussed his 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:41.640 new book, Race Sports and Education, Improving Opportunities and Outcomes 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:46.320 of Blackmail College Athletes. Please welcome to Money Making Conversations, 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:52.040 Dr John Singer, thank you for having me. I really 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:56.360 appreciate this opportunity to have this conversation. Well, I'll tell 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.200 you after reading the book, are are you know? Because 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.080 you know Dr Harry Everett's in the book. We were 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:03.880 talking to a referencing the book. I'm saying is the 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.280 book called Race Sports and Education. He this book is 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.000 about black mail caused athletes, and he suggested that you 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:15.560 should include the female experience of the black female college athlete. 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:21.000 And your reasoning for just going male was why? Well, 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:23.880 I think for me being that this was my first 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:29.799 foray into an authored book. It was personal for me. 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:32.640 I mean as a black male myself who had hoop 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.320 dreams and aspirations as well a little boy growing up 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:39.959 in Betton Harbor, Michigan, and as someone who has worked 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.760 more closely with this particular population into my college years 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:47.320 and graduate studies and now as a faculty member. It 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:49.720 was just important for me to write about what I 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.480 knew and what I was most passionate about at this 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.560 moment my my career. So that's kind of why I 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:59.760 went against the sage wisdom and advice of Dr Edwards 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.200 and this particular project. I had this stick with what 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.919 what was my passion? But you know, you you you 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:10.200 know he is the like, let's say, the the the 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.760 messiah of this particular field of study. You know, when 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.160 you think about him at the forefront of politics and 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.640 and black studies and especially from an athletic standpoint, and 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.440 whenever you look at the espn is you would always 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.320 they would always hunt him down. What does what does 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.720 Dr Harry Ewoods has to say? What is he speaking about? 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.400 And when you look at the footage of him from 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.960 the sixties, he looks the same, He's just as grey 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.120 in his in his mustache and his goatee. But he's 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:40.440 still brilliant. What what when when we're gonna get to 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.080 your book? But a person like that, what impact does 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.560 he have on a person like you? Yeah? So I 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.360 remember seeing him like an interview clips when I was 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.800 an undergrad at Michigan State, and I just found myself 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:56.840 fascinated with him. I was like, man, he comes out 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:00.640 of that tradition of the civil rights movement, mouth comexus 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.720 and you know, the Black Canthers. But he tied his 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.200 activism to the context of sport, which really kind of 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.360 got my attention as a young you know, in my 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:15.720 late teens, early twenties, going through undergrad and so it's 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:20.160 amazing that, you know, twenty plus years later, not only 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.680 am I interacting with him, but he's endorsing my books. 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.839 So he's certainly planning a seed in me. I would 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.480 say that has started to germinate at this moment in 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:35.200 my my journey. Now this book. Who are you trying 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:39.560 to reach with this book as far as readers are concerned? Right, 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:44.120 So there's a couple of different audiences. Um first and 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:50.000 foremost the athletes themselves, and this can include athletes behind 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:52.240 this Black Males, because I think there's a message in 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.600 this book if you really pay attention to the nuances 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.479 and the narratives of the black males that I do 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.520 feature in the book, there's something in there, I think 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:07.360 for all athletes who are traveling, you know, from high 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:11.120 school into college sports. But more specifically, I really want 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:16.560 to reach the decision makers, those individuals who are setting 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.360 policies at the NT double A and member institution level, 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.440 those who are the practitioners working more directly day to 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.440 day with these athletes, whether it's academic support for athletics 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.359 or faculty on these university campuses. So I'm really looking 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.480 to read and for that matter, people in secondary educations 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:40.360 who are responsible for preparing these athletes for higher education, 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.920 so that those are my my primary audiences. Um and 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:45.880 then of course to lay audience people who are just 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:51.000 interested in in the topic and sport and education will 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.680 also find I think some value in this book. Well, 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:58.360 they're what I call industry decision makers influencers. People can 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:02.560 shape the way people think, the decisions they can make 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:06.720 about their future or how they're living currently. And so 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.440 the book I found fascinating reading, especially We're gonna we 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.120 don't get the chapters two and three in a minute, 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.640 But I want to talk about the Black Barbershop. You know, 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.960 I did a show on MTV called The Barbershop, and 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.560 it was about entertainment. And one of the things about 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.160 the Black Barbershop is that you know, you're gonna get 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.880 your share of sports, you're gonna get your share of politics, 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:28.520 and you're gonna get your share of entertainment. What was 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.640 your take on the Black Barbershop because just the fun part, 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.480 you know, of our conversation, and I enjoyed the reading 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.080 of the book, but when you when you get into 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.520 that barbershop, it's a different space there, man oh man. 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.840 You know, and my good friend and brother, Richard Milner 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.840 actually wrote the series forward for the book, and Eve 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.599 he talked about the Black Barbershop and the beauty shop 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.599 and how his observations in that space really speak to 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:56.600 I mean, there's a lot of theorizing. I know, we 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.920 as academics of scholars, we you know, we pride us 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.920 sales and you know, engaging with theory that makes sense 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:06.640 of the world. But in the Black Barbershop, that's exactly 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:09.039 what you get. It's not in the formal sense, but 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:13.320 certainly you have people with keen insights into these issues. 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:18.200 So the black barbershop, even my current barber um, you know, 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.120 I know something about sport, you know, and and the 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.680 patrons sitting around waiting for their haircut. You started talking 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:29.200 about sport boy. You see a different type of type 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.160 in it, and and whatnot in that space. So absolutely, 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:34.880 and I was glad that that brother rich Dr Brother 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:39.960 Richard Milner mused that metaphor to introduce my book in 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.600 his in his Racing Education series for Hybrid Education Prep. Well, 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.800 you know, it's really funny, you know, because the movie 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.720 that the Ice Q made, and of course Cedric the 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.160 entertained and started the very first barbershop was the closest 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.240 version of the very first one. And all those are good, 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:58.920 but the very first one's the closest version of walking 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.560 into a typical barbershop, you know, opinionated. You always got 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:05.200 somebody who's bigger than life in there, and you always 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.160 have people who sit around and putting information. You have 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.600 young generations because people women were bringing their young kids, 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.160 or the fathers are bringing their kids for their first haircuts, 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.800 and you have older generation people sitting in there, and 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:20.280 it was. So it allows you to think about so 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:24.240 many different layers of experiences that you can get just 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.600 by walking in there. And it's all tied to sports, 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:32.000 and sports is such a it crosses racial lines, but 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.880 it is racial, you know, whether it's the black quarterback 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:38.040 situation of the you know, I was watching ESPN last night. 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.400 They did this special call the Year the Black Quarterback. 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:42.640 You know, when you talk about Russell Wilson, you're talking 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.160 about Patrick Mahomes, you're talking about Lamar Jackson, who who's 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.959 unanimous m v P. And here was a guy who 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.920 was the fifth quarterback drafted in the year he was drafted, 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:54.840 and so because people thought he should be actually trying 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.200 out for to be a ride receiver and not be 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:59.760 trying to try not to be a quarterback. And so 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.760 you know, these these individuals who are changing the game. 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:08.600 How does that affect your book? Yeah, that's interesting. One 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.440 of the it was in chapter two the case study 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.440 I did, one of the athletes featured in that case 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:19.760 study talking about that, how you know, even as college coach, 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:24.440 they were bringing a white quarterback in the black quarterback monnel, 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.320 that black quarterback with the label of athletes. You know, 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.160 when clearly, from the perspective of this young man that 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.360 I feature in chapter two, he was the best quarterback 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.040 and best athlete on the team and he didn't understand 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.280 why coaches want to limit his access to that quarterback 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:46.000 leadership decision making positions. So certainly the athletes that I've 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:51.040 engaged within my research recognized the very point that you're making. Well, 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.760 you know, I think that a book like yours has 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:55.520 to be written and has to be you know, we 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.360 can't all have we have to have factual information about 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.240 what is really going on out there. And uh, when 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:03.400 I was reading your book and like see you you 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:07.160 you you followed three characters because you didn't really give 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:11.000 details on exactly who they were, exactly what college they 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.000 played on, exactly what protein they played on. But you 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.040 shared their position in college, you share their position when 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.480 they left college. And the three characters played a major 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:24.120 role in how each transition away from the sport based 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:28.280 on how the sport treated them. And you know, and 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.760 and it's really important that people understand that sports is 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.920 such a you know, everybody wants to be the next 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.680 you know, Russell Wilson, or the next you know Jair 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.480 Rice or the next. But then you have this this 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:44.040 this collegiate force or this college force out there, and 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.720 you said the h w c U, and I really 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.040 versus the HBCU, because those are two options out there, 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.360 but they are perceived options for success. When I say 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.360 h w c U, we're talking about historical white college 0:10:56.360 --> 0:11:01.120 and universities and you have HBCU historical historical college and university. 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:05.720 Explain those dynamics for us, my listeners. Yeah. So, I mean, 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:10.640 if you really think about prior to the late nineteen 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:14.440 sixties and early nineteen seventies, that's where the black talent 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:17.720 really emerged. You talking about Jerry Rice, I mean he 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.280 was He's a product of an hbc and many of 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.320 the great Prior to the late sixties early seventies, when 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.640 Harry I was writing about this stuff, when he first 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.080 began writing about this stuff, all the black talent was there. 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:34.920 But once these historically white institutions began to realize there 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:39.120 was golden in their heels, as they say, that's when 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.960 they started cherry picking the best and the brightest. Historian 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:46.160 Gerald Eally talked about it was. HBO did a documentary 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.920 in the late nineties called The Journey of African American athletes. 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:55.160 He talked about this mass uh influx of black athletes 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:59.080 into these historical institutions in the early seventies. And the 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.040 real key moment was in nineteen seventy three they talked 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.880 about in this documentary when Sam damn Cunningham, that's right, 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.719 came down to Alabama, Alabama. He went down and just 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:13.720 ran all over Paul bear Bryant's all white Alabama squad. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.320 You had the Alabama fans and the stands of at 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.079 the late great Eddie Robinson said talking about get us one, 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.679 get us one, talking about a black athlete, you know, 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.000 to the dominating. The next year, Alabama certainly brought in 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.840 Wilbert Jackson absolutely and then just let everybody know about 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:32.160 that game. USC dominant, West Coast College, University of Southern 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.840 California and Sam Bam Cunningham. When you give him a vault, 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.240 he'd leap over the line. He wouldn't run through the 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.520 last he'd leap over it, and so and so so 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:43.480 it was like there was nothing we've ever seen in 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:46.160 college football. And to do it against you know, the 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:50.160 vauntage or the legendary you know Bear Bryan team was 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.559 was was incredible. And also you know the Nebraska team 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:57.480 led by Johnny Rogers, and uh, those teams changed the 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:01.360 way people saw black athletes. And then when Jimmy Johnson 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:05.200 went down to Miami and found that the southern version, 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.040 the southern tip of Florida where all the black athletes 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.840 that nobody wanted to recruit, that had all the speed, 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.839 that's really started changing the face. But then they called 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:21.520 the athletes that he recruited convicts. M hm. They called 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:26.319 the athletes that know that they recruited Catholics and so 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.839 so they they named them. So. So when I started 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.800 reading your book, you know, it just started bringing back memories, doctor, 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.439 you know, so so you know you I'm one of 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:38.199 those industry decision makersy. This is impromptu information you've given 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.040 me that I'm just I'm just expounding. And just then 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.360 you know how important that your your book is and 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.920 needs to be be be studied but also served because 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.520 sociology changed my life. We're gonna be back in the 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.000 minute in our next break, because you got me fired up, doctor, 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.079 You got me fired up. Man. This book is a 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.440 is a is a great read. I'm talking to a book. 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:01.120 I'm talking to Dr John singer his book Proving Opportunities 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.160 and Alcohols for Blackmail. College athletes will be road back 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.120 with more money making conversations. We'll be right back with 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.600 more from McDonald and money making conversations. 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Auto dot ai works for in person or 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.240 virtual meetings like Zoom, micros Off teams, and Google meet. 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.120 Sign up for free at auto dit ai or download 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.480 the app for free auto dot ai. That's O T 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:15.520 T E R. Dot Ai. Money Making conversations continues online 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:19.840 at www dot money Making Conversations dot Com and follow 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:24.880 money Making Conversations on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Ladies and gentlemen, 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.280 it's time you stop thinking about your dreams and put 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:32.720 some plans into action. You're listening to money Making Conversation. 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.480 I'm the host of Rashan McDonald. I'm speaking to Dr 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.840 John Singer. He has a book called Race, Sports and 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:43.880 Education and Improving Opportunities and Outcomes for Black Mail College Athletes. 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:48.160 My show is about entertainment. My show is about entrepreneurship. Um. 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:51.480 I feel it's the topic that you're talking about. It's 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:56.000 about money. It's about how the uh the institution we 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.560 call the n C double a uh. Some people call 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:04.080 it a money making institutions, and people have called the plantation. 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.720 Some people have called it an environment. But I feel that, yes, 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.199 you can say that, but it also impacts white students 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.159 as well, white student athletes as well. And so, but 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:17.800 we're talking about the black student athletes. And so you 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.720 track three different talents in your book. Why did you 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.480 choose these three individuals and why were they stores so 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:29.520 unique to your book? Well? Interesting? Right, So that particularly 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.040 you're talking about chapter two in the book is really 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:36.719 is um, that chapter is based on my dissertation work. Um. 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:38.280 And one of the reasons I don't you kind of 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:41.480 mentioned earlier in our conversation that I don't get specifically 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:47.080 about the institution. That's because of h RB protocol universities 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:54.520 where you have to protect the confidentiality of your research participants. 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:58.600 But this research that I feature of these three black males, 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.560 One reason I chose in the particulars because they expressed 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.600 an interest in the topics. So I had a connection 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:08.240 with one of the brothers who was an academic counselor 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:13.080 in the athletic department, and he told these particular athletes 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:17.000 about my, my, my dissertation research, and and they were 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.840 very interested in and sharing their story and their voices 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.160 and helping to create knowledge around the topics. So that's 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:26.680 kind of why those particular individuals making into the book, 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:31.280 because they were willing participants and wanted to share this 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.879 critical conversation that we had that formed the basis of 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.600 chapter two. All three in play football college football. Author 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.680 of them played football, and they were all high levels recruits, 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:44.160 you know they were. They were high level bluechip athletes 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.320 coming out of high school, and they all at some 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.679 point in time had a step in the NFL beyond 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.919 their their college days. They were that talented um on 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.399 the field to play to the point where they all 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.679 got a shot, with varying degrees of success at the 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.040 NFL level, But I love the fact that they all 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.160 arrived in different ways. One was a free agent, one 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.560 was drafted in the later rounds, and one was drafted 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.440 in the early rounds. And we all know that that's 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:14.080 a salary tied to that. And two of them became 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:16.040 are in the fields of in the are in the 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:18.840 field of acting, and one in the field of sales, 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:23.199 and so which which which is really interesting because in 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.800 my I'm running into more and more athletes of the 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:29.480 gentleman who wanted an oscar. Matthew Cherry was a former 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:32.800 professional football player, and so so I'm running into more 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.480 and more athletes and I and I really the reason 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.400 the reason I'm really excited about communicating with you because 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:42.679 I'm really involved in a lot of HBCU activity, trying 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:45.919 to really build a brand of their awareness of what 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.720 HBCUs are bringing to the table not only in athletics 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:53.600 but academics, but also your book is about branding and 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.159 marketing too, because it's about perception because that we started. 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.840 Because that's why a lot of kids go to h uh, 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:04.000 historical White college university because of the fact that it's 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.159 perception that I can get drafted or I get a 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:10.240 better opportunity to uh, to be seen on TV. That's 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:12.679 important to these young people today as it is in 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:18.000 the past. Correct. Oh, yeah, absolutely, And that conversation has 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.359 come up in mind not only my formal resource with 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:25.679 black male athletes, but also when I was academic advisor 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.280 and mentor of a summer Bridge program. A lot of 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.960 this struggle with the decision to say, Hey, I want 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.520 to consider HBCU, but I know where I'm at in 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.960 my career, where we're at in society. It behoo's me 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.120 to go to the historically white college because of the 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:45.480 media visibility, the platform, the resources to get me to 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.600 the next level. So I've had many conversations with black 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:53.240 male athletes over the years about that, you know, decision 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:57.800 to consider HBCUs, but to look at the platform and 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:02.000 the resources that these historical hit cousy and the even 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.159 though it's been proven that if you do have the talent, 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:10.360 you know, Steve McNair HBCU graduate at quarterback Tennessee Titans, UH, 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:16.520 Doug Williams, of course, Gramlin UM Jared Rice Mississippi Valley State, 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:21.560 I believed. And then also recently the Houston Texans drafted 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:24.120 a young man out of a police South Carolina State 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:29.359 officive tackle UH from our HBCU school. So and then 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.760 also Darre's Leonard last year he was a HBCU grad 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.680 and made the Pro Bowl. So we're starting to see. 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:39.680 And also I know that the NFL is now holding 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:46.000 a separate HBCU college combine. So so it's a lot 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:48.399 of things that are happening. They may cause that shift, 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:51.520 may not be dramatically, but if if that shift started 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.320 to happen, what would that do in the in the 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:56.360 book that you've written, would it would it be Would 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:58.719 it be a good thing if that shift started happening 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:01.800 towards h or the hbc you're starting to see more 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:07.000 quality talent to attend or just as quote last, that's 0:22:07.040 --> 0:22:10.359 a very interesting question because I talked a little bit 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:12.760 about that in the conclusion of my book right where 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.080 that's a consideration that we have to think about. I 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:19.520 think about my dear sister Jamal Hill, who is a 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:23.080 fellow Michigan State's partner. We were there in nineties at 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:25.960 the same time she talks about that, how now is 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.359 the time for us to seriously consider that. It's interesting. 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:32.840 I'm this Thursday, February thirteenth, I'm giving a talk about 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:36.280 my book at Prairieview, a and m um Fred Bonner 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.840 has what he called the Building on Resilience lecture series, 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:42.679 and he asked me to come and talk about my 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:46.400 book and you know, implications it has for college sports 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:50.359 widely speaking, and so I think it's time to have 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.639 that conversation. And in light of what herya was referred 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:57.320 to as the fourth waves of athlete activism, where athletes 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:02.120 are now corporates in their own rights, you know, I mean, 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:06.480 but the social media media platform, these athletes are being 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:12.120 more empowered to to control their own you know, brand 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:15.639 and destiny. So I think it's a serious conversation that 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:19.199 we can't ignore this dismissed as I will never be 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:22.560 possible because the aller of h h W c US 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:25.639 is just too powerful. I think that I don't know, 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:30.920 the conversation is right and to be had, well, it's 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:33.840