1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,560
Speaker 1: The King of England meets with Pope Leo in the Vatican.

2
00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,600
Speaker 1: What's really happening there and what might be possible? And

3
00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,280
Speaker 1: the Cardinal Secretary of State at the Vatican downplays anti

4
00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:15,200
Speaker 1: Christian violence in Nigeria. We'll tell you why the Prayerful Posse.

5
00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 1: We'll explore it all next. Welcome to this important Prayerful Posse.

6
00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,280
Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful

7
00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 1: way to support our work totally free, and visit Raymondarroyo

8
00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:34,800
Speaker 1: dot com for more.

9
00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,000
Speaker 2: Let's convene the Prayerful Posse.

10
00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,280
Speaker 1: Canon Lawyer Priest of the Archdiocese of New York, Father

11
00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 1: Gerald Murray is here and editor in chief of the

12
00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,040
Speaker 1: Catholic Thing dot org. Robert Royal joins us, and I'm

13
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,840
Speaker 1: Raymond to Royo. Thank you gents for being here. King

14
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,879
Speaker 1: Charles is visiting the Vatican to meet Pope Leo and

15
00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,040
Speaker 1: they're sharing what's being built as an historic moment of

16
00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,600
Speaker 1: joint prayer at the Sistine Chapel.

17
00:00:58,880 --> 00:00:59,600
Speaker 2: Now, just for.

18
00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 1: The record, this is the first time a Roman pontiff

19
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,280
Speaker 1: and an English monarch had prayed together since the Reformation.

20
00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,640
Speaker 1: This ecumenical gesture focuses on the themes of Christian unity

21
00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 1: and care for creation. Bob, how significant is this moment

22
00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,600
Speaker 1: for the Church of Rome and the Church of England

23
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:20,160
Speaker 1: or is it?

24
00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question, because here we have the

25
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,560
Speaker 3: heir to Henry the Eighth, who split off the British

26
00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:35,280
Speaker 3: Church from the universal Catholic Church and is himself even

27
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,080
Speaker 3: somewhat retreating from being the chief of the Anglican communion

28
00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,000
Speaker 3: because he's when he was a crown king, he talked

29
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,800
Speaker 3: about how he wanted to be the king of faiths

30
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,080
Speaker 3: in a simply the Anglican faith. So it's, you know,

31
00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,000
Speaker 3: it's part and parcel of all that ecumenical activity that's

32
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,600
Speaker 3: been going on for decades, partly in the Catholic Church.

33
00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:57,320
Speaker 4: Partly elsewhere.

34
00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,600
Speaker 3: I wish this were really a kind of a step

35
00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:07,000
Speaker 3: forward in authentic acumunism, which we mean coming together, you know,

36
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 3: in common acceptance of the truths of Christianity in their

37
00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,680
Speaker 3: historic meaning. But I have a feeling that this is

38
00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,960
Speaker 3: just a kind of a side encounter at a time

39
00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,760
Speaker 3: when the Church itself is not very strong in England,

40
00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 3: and when the Church of England itself is in at

41
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,360
Speaker 3: crisis and not least because of what it's doing itself.

42
00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,640
Speaker 3: I mean, it's kind a female Archbishop of Canterbury about

43
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,760
Speaker 3: to be about to be installed in March, and so

44
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,600
Speaker 3: there's there's a wide gap here. It's, you know, it's

45
00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,200
Speaker 3: nice to be nice to one another, but beyond that,

46
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:42,520
Speaker 3: I don't think it's as much.

47
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,400
Speaker 4: It might even be a kind of.

48
00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,239
Speaker 2: A net negative father.

49
00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,520
Speaker 1: Also part of this meeting is a visit to the

50
00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,720
Speaker 1: Basilica of Saint Paul outside the Walls, that's where Saint

51
00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:58,440
Speaker 1: Paul was martyred. There, Pope Leo has bestowed upon King

52
00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:04,160
Speaker 1: Charles the title of Royal Comforter of Saint Paul, and

53
00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,600
Speaker 1: he's given him a special chair there which will be

54
00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,600
Speaker 1: used by the king and one presumes his successors when

55
00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:11,880
Speaker 1: they visit the basilica.

56
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,280
Speaker 2: What is the message being sent here.

57
00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,880
Speaker 5: Well, this is an updating of the custom that exists

58
00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,040
Speaker 5: in many churches, which is that the Catholic royalty would

59
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,120
Speaker 5: have a throne or a seat in which they would

60
00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,840
Speaker 5: be seated place a special recognition. So this is not

61
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,520
Speaker 5: a Catholic royal, but nonetheless it's a Christian royal. And

62
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,080
Speaker 5: as Bob says, this is an ecumenical sign.

63
00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:39,839
Speaker 6: It really isn't.

64
00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 5: The essence of a humanism, essence of acumunim is this

65
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,320
Speaker 5: unity in Christ, in the one True Church. That's the goal,

66
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,760
Speaker 5: according to the Second Vatican Council. So if this contributes

67
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,280
Speaker 5: to that, it's fine. But it's a nice gesture, but

68
00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,800
Speaker 5: it doesn't I think, really advance the cause of Christian

69
00:03:58,880 --> 00:03:59,960
Speaker 5: unity all that much.

70
00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, Bob, you mentioned it, Henry the Eighth.

71
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,800
Speaker 1: I mean it was a heretical king. I mean, he

72
00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,960
Speaker 1: broke off from the church and Charles has continued in

73
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 1: that line. So it is odd to be bestowing a

74
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,240
Speaker 1: seat like this a place of honor in a Catholic

75
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,279
Speaker 1: cathedral of such a steam in Rome.

76
00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's an oddity. I don't know why exactly they've

77
00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,760
Speaker 3: decided to do this. There must have been some back

78
00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,080
Speaker 3: channel conversations about its.

79
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:28,920
Speaker 4: Certainly a way.

80
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,719
Speaker 3: To make nice with the UK, but the UK is

81
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,640
Speaker 3: in very serious trouble these days. I mean, we see

82
00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:39,839
Speaker 3: all the time the kind of random violence, knife knife

83
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,640
Speaker 3: things that occur in London and elsewhere. You see the

84
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:50,000
Speaker 3: Muslim disorders that are taking place. There's an absolutely scandalous

85
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,520
Speaker 3: case that there's going to be an Israeli soccer team

86
00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,919
Speaker 3: playing in Birmingham against a British team and Israeli fans

87
00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,720
Speaker 3: are being barred from going to the stadium. So England

88
00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,000
Speaker 3: is in is in a great crisis at this point

89
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,600
Speaker 3: and probably looking for friends. I have to assume they

90
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,039
Speaker 3: like the fact that the Vatican was able to work

91
00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,680
Speaker 3: out this deal with them. But what it means for

92
00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,359
Speaker 3: the church, I don't know. It's nice to have friends,

93
00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,240
Speaker 3: but Christianity is not just about making friends, his father

94
00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,640
Speaker 3: rightly says, it's the unity in the one true Church. Yeah,

95
00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:24,920
Speaker 3: it should be the kind of major foot the central

96
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,360
Speaker 3: focus of what the Catholic churches all about.

97
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,880
Speaker 1: Well, father, this also comes at a time when in

98
00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,320
Speaker 1: England you have young people attending Catholic services more than

99
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,599
Speaker 1: Anglican services, and the Church of England, as Bob mentioned,

100
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:42,320
Speaker 1: just elected its first female Archbishop of Canterbury. Does that

101
00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,040
Speaker 1: pose any issues of relations between these two churches or

102
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,360
Speaker 1: is climate awareness enough to hold the ecumenical outreach together

103
00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:51,960
Speaker 1: and keep it from going sideways?

104
00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,040
Speaker 5: Well, you know the version of a humanism that we're

105
00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,680
Speaker 5: seeing now, which is not to talk about essential doctrines

106
00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:04,560
Speaker 5: but talk about essentially political issues which have to do

107
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:10,360
Speaker 5: with economic arrangements to combat climate change, for instance. That's

108
00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 5: not central to the mission of the church. So for me,

109
00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,840
Speaker 5: these kind of events are just things that you put

110
00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,520
Speaker 5: on a scoreboard and say, well, how often do we

111
00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,280
Speaker 5: show friendliness toward non Catholic Christians. And I'm all in

112
00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,680
Speaker 5: favor of friendliness, but the goal of the Catholic Church

113
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 5: is not to make friends. It's to make citizens of Heaven.

114
00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 5: So we all want to be going toward the supernatural destiny.

115
00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,640
Speaker 5: We have to remind people sin is a problem.

116
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:36,880
Speaker 4: Now.

117
00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,359
Speaker 5: This new Archbishop of Canterbury, she believes an abortion. She

118
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,560
Speaker 5: thinks abortion is good. This is scandalous. She claims to

119
00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,360
Speaker 5: represent Jesus Christ in the Church of England for her people,

120
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,159
Speaker 5: and she's going to preach and has preached that abortion

121
00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,840
Speaker 5: is a moral thing. That's the obstacle to Christian unity,

122
00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:57,880
Speaker 5: not the fact that the king has not had a

123
00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,320
Speaker 5: share up till this point of Saint Paul's.

124
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, there's another challenge here for the Anglican Church.

125
00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,680
Speaker 1: The chairman of the Global Anglican Future Conference, something called

126
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,840
Speaker 1: gaffkon of the Primate Council, the head of the Primate's

127
00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:19,520
Speaker 1: Council and Archbishop Laurent Mamba or Mamdana of the Anglican

128
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,760
Speaker 1: Church in Rwanda. He's declared that his organization rejects the

129
00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:28,320
Speaker 1: leadership of this new Archbishop of Canterbury, Sarah Malayley. So

130
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,040
Speaker 1: gaff Coon is not leaving the communion, but they are

131
00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,920
Speaker 1: questioning and challenging the authority of the head of the

132
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,840
Speaker 1: Anglican Church worldwide. So this really is an internal problem

133
00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,320
Speaker 1: in rupture that I guess Anglicanism has been dealing with

134
00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 1: for a long time.

135
00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:46,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

136
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,160
Speaker 3: You know Cardinal Newman, who's going to be declared a

137
00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,040
Speaker 3: Doctor of the Church on November one, he used to

138
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 3: say that there are three basic Catholic currents in Christianity.

139
00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,800
Speaker 3: There's the Roman Catholic Church, they're the Orthodox, and then

140
00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,200
Speaker 3: they're the Anglicans. Now, you know, we have a different

141
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,840
Speaker 3: view of it than than most people would have. But

142
00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 3: he was saying that those three currents you can identify

143
00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 3: with the Early Church and you can see that they're there.

144
00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:13,920
Speaker 4: There's a certain type of.

145
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,640
Speaker 3: Continuity there what they've done now and they've been skating

146
00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,160
Speaker 3: very close to the edge of this system in the

147
00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,440
Speaker 3: Anglican Church for quite a while because the Anglican Church

148
00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 3: in England has been going woke, as many left wing

149
00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:33,440
Speaker 3: Protestant denominations have been recently, and with this move, they're

150
00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,880
Speaker 3: actually saying that their member churches in Gaffkan no longer

151
00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,760
Speaker 3: need to look to the Archbishop of Canterbury as a leader.

152
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,439
Speaker 3: You know, it's not exactly the archchas of Canterbury is

153
00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,400
Speaker 3: not like a pope where there are doctrinal questions involved,

154
00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,360
Speaker 3: in their unity questions involved, but still to look to

155
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,360
Speaker 3: the leadership of your group, your religious group, and to

156
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,600
Speaker 3: say we can't accept leadership from you any longer. That's

157
00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:02,439
Speaker 3: the mother church, the Andrewbury Cathedral and Kent goes back

158
00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 3: to all the way to San Agustine of Canterbury in

159
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,440
Speaker 3: the seventh century. To have that kind of division arise

160
00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,520
Speaker 3: over what's been happening back in England, it's an utter

161
00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:13,960
Speaker 3: crisis in their communion.

162
00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, another big story this week A report posted on

163
00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,840
Speaker 1: October fourteenth, We have to get into this was posted

164
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,520
Speaker 1: on info Vaticano dot com and it alleges a major

165
00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,960
Speaker 1: internal shakeup in the well known personal prelature Opus Day.

166
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,800
Speaker 1: It's rumored that Opus Day statutes new statutes are awaiting

167
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:40,640
Speaker 1: final approval by the Pope, and that Pope Leo will

168
00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,480
Speaker 1: splinter the current structure of the work founded by Saint

169
00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,840
Speaker 1: Jose Maria Escreva and replace it with three distinct juridical entities.

170
00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:51,560
Speaker 2: So he's going to break it into three parts.

171
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:56,360
Speaker 1: One group Opus Day priests themselves, another diocesan priests who

172
00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,760
Speaker 1: want to live this od terrorism, and a third group.

173
00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,720
Speaker 2: Of laymen members numerary supernumeries.

174
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,040
Speaker 1: Father, would you explain canonically what might be happening here?

175
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:07,480
Speaker 2: Pope Francis sort.

176
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,440
Speaker 1: Of blew up the personal prelature that was created by

177
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,960
Speaker 1: John Paul the Second when OPU State took really took

178
00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,960
Speaker 1: shape as a kind of floating diocese. I know this

179
00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,080
Speaker 1: is tricky and difficult to explain to people, but it

180
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,600
Speaker 1: was sort of a floating international diocese.

181
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,040
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, let me, I'm a cannon lawyer said that

182
00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,880
Speaker 5: I'm going to dive in here with Augusto.

183
00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:27,840
Speaker 6: Yeah.

184
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,560
Speaker 5: So personal prelatures were started by Vatican two, and then

185
00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,720
Speaker 5: John Paul the Second approved a situation where you would

186
00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:39,160
Speaker 5: have the prelative opus Sta who is a priest, and

187
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 5: a group of priests around him who would have spiritual

188
00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 5: care for a group of the faithful who were members

189
00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,959
Speaker 5: of Opi STA included, and that was a separate association

190
00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,400
Speaker 5: but was intrinsically united to OPI STA for diocesan priests

191
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,040
Speaker 5: who want to be living the same spiritual life. That

192
00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:01,679
Speaker 5: arrangement involved. As Opus Stay on understood, it a hierarchical

193
00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,360
Speaker 5: relationship between the prelative Opus Stay and the members, so

194
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,800
Speaker 5: that he exercises of pastoral jurisdiction and care, but it

195
00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,800
Speaker 5: was shared jurisdiction with the local bishops. I know this

196
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,040
Speaker 5: is complicated. It's sort of like a military bishop. Military

197
00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,360
Speaker 5: bishop has care for the members of the army and

198
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,280
Speaker 5: the navy, but so does the local.

199
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,400
Speaker 6: Bishop wherever the service members are living.

200
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 5: The pope, under the influence of Canonist John Franco, Cardinal Girlanda,

201
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,080
Speaker 5: has adopted a different view, which is the prelature.

202
00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,000
Speaker 6: Is only the priests.

203
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,400
Speaker 5: The only jurisdiction that the predic is over is priests

204
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:40,040
Speaker 5: ordained for Opus day. Everyone else has separate institutions. Now,

205
00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,560
Speaker 5: according to this rumor, the priests have an association of

206
00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,720
Speaker 5: the clergy, and then the lay people will have an

207
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,880
Speaker 5: association of the faithful. Now they're going to certainly follow

208
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,559
Speaker 5: the teachings of Saint Jose Maria. But the big question

209
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,679
Speaker 5: is who's in charge and are there we now having

210
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,080
Speaker 5: multiple authorities within the organization, and it would seem if

211
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,920
Speaker 5: that's the directions going in that we have a problem

212
00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,600
Speaker 5: because the way it was always conceived. And I'm very

213
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,600
Speaker 5: familiar with Opus Stay. At one time I was in

214
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:08,840
Speaker 5: the priestly Society when I was a young priest because

215
00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,440
Speaker 5: I loved opis state. Oh I didn't know that, yeah yeah,

216
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,560
Speaker 5: and then I decided not to continue, but i still

217
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,559
Speaker 5: go on retreat and I'm very friendly with Opus Stay.

218
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,680
Speaker 5: So but I've studied it canonically to learn more. Saint

219
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,040
Speaker 5: Jose Maria had one idea, this is a spiritual family.

220
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,560
Speaker 5: There's a father, meaning the prelate, and then everybody else

221
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,200
Speaker 5: is in relation to him according to what their status is, single, married,

222
00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,360
Speaker 5: diaceis and clergy. They have cooperators. Even non Catholics could

223
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,840
Speaker 5: be related. So anyway, long answer, but the question here

224
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:44,280
Speaker 5: is will will this change the way Opus Day operates?

225
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,959
Speaker 5: And maybe on a practical level, yes, but hopefully in

226
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,600
Speaker 5: the spiritual levels still have the same attitude, which is

227
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,080
Speaker 5: we're all part of the spiritual heritage.

228
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 6: Saint Jose Maria.

229
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, but Jose Maria Scripa's vision and correct me if

230
00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,120
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, Bob. His vision was that the laity would

231
00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,160
Speaker 1: be a sort of the tip of the spear, and

232
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,200
Speaker 1: it would not be a religious institute like the Franciscans

233
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,440
Speaker 1: or the Dominicans, with you know, a prelate and the

234
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:13,840
Speaker 1: priests or brothers under him. Pope Francis made big adjustments

235
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,840
Speaker 1: to the Opa State constitution back in twenty twenty two,

236
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,640
Speaker 1: and he transferred governance to the Dicastre of Clergy and

237
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:23,880
Speaker 1: declared that the Opa State Prelate would no longer be

238
00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:24,360
Speaker 1: a bishop.

239
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,040
Speaker 2: What is the Vatican hoping to achieve here, Bob?

240
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:32,040
Speaker 3: Do you think, well, that's not exactly clear, I suppose

241
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,400
Speaker 3: at this point, but typically you divide something to conquer it,

242
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,960
Speaker 3: and they're clearly trying to break something that has existed

243
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,199
Speaker 3: within Opu's Day. I've gone on OPA's Day retreats myself.

244
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,880
Speaker 3: I had spiritual directors who were Opus Day priests over

245
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:47,920
Speaker 3: the years. I've never been a member of the work,

246
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,440
Speaker 3: but have been close to them. And the thing that

247
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:51,680
Speaker 3: has always struck.

248
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,640
Speaker 4: Me about Opus Day is it.

249
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,800
Speaker 3: Does what the more progressive side of the church has

250
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,840
Speaker 3: always said it wants to do, which is it's formed

251
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,520
Speaker 3: lay people to be active in the church, not as

252
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,280
Speaker 3: priests and deacons, et cetera, but out in the world

253
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,440
Speaker 3: sanctifying the world, you know, being active, bringing an active

254
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,440
Speaker 3: presence of Christ and Christianity.

255
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:12,520
Speaker 4: Into the world.

256
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,800
Speaker 3: And it's been successful at that like no other group

257
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,800
Speaker 3: in modern times. I mean, there's just no competition about this.

258
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,280
Speaker 3: So is it that it has that outside public influence

259
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,320
Speaker 3: or is there some group or faction in the Vatican

260
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,360
Speaker 3: that feels that they're, you know, they're too independent from

261
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,120
Speaker 3: the Church. But whatever it is, this is not going

262
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 3: to strengthen that charism that Saint jose Maria s Creva

263
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:44,440
Speaker 3: identified and was so successful at bringing Christ into the

264
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:45,600
Speaker 3: world through laypeople.

265
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, father, what do you think is driving this? I mean,

266
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,760
Speaker 1: to me this, you know, culturally speaking, when you stand back,

267
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,080
Speaker 1: this feels like it's all a piece of a whole,

268
00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,320
Speaker 1: which means we saw Pope Francis lay waste to the

269
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:05,560
Speaker 1: Order of Malta and take away its being its own

270
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,520
Speaker 1: state ifew will, and operating within its own strictures.

271
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:09,520
Speaker 2: He broke that up.

272
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 1: We see the move to suppress the Latin mass now

273
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,240
Speaker 1: to disrupt and reshape the work of Opus Stay. If

274
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,360
Speaker 1: something's working and has worked for a long time, why

275
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:21,880
Speaker 1: are we monking with it now?

276
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:22,960
Speaker 2: What's driving this?

277
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:24,680
Speaker 6: Well?

278
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,920
Speaker 5: In the case of Pope Francis, I think is part

279
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,920
Speaker 5: of his hostility which is documented to more conservative or

280
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,360
Speaker 5: orthodox groups in the Catholic Church. You know, he never

281
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,040
Speaker 5: conducted a pastoral study of how the Jesuits were being

282
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,360
Speaker 5: faithful to their charism, but more conservative religious orders got them,

283
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,720
Speaker 5: including the Fraternity of Saint Peter, Institute of Christ the King,

284
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,600
Speaker 5: so there was an effort to rein in from his

285
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:49,040
Speaker 5: point of.

286
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,600
Speaker 6: View conservative groups.

287
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:56,040
Speaker 5: There's also canonically and otherwise a history of some hostility

288
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,240
Speaker 5: between the Jesuit Order and Opu Stay, And if you

289
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,160
Speaker 5: read some of the hits streets that have been produced,

290
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,120
Speaker 5: this goes back to the Founding era, you know, back

291
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,840
Speaker 5: in the thirties in Spain and onward. So there's some

292
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,320
Speaker 5: score settling there. From the canon law side, I know

293
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,400
Speaker 5: Cardinal Giirlanda, he taught me canon law.

294
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 6: He's never liked.

295
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,600
Speaker 5: The way personal prelatures evolved in canon law, so I

296
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,840
Speaker 5: think he convinced Pope Francis.

297
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 6: That's one way to change it.

298
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,240
Speaker 5: The real issue though, is here, as you say, the

299
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,360
Speaker 5: broader thing, this is a spiritual treasure which has produced

300
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,960
Speaker 5: a lot of fruits of holiness. If there are problems,

301
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,200
Speaker 5: and there are problems in every group, we address it

302
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,800
Speaker 5: in order to make the group better, not to change

303
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,480
Speaker 5: its organic structure, which is unfortunately what's happened here, because

304
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,280
Speaker 5: if the prelature is separate from the association of the

305
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,400
Speaker 5: laity and sort of like it's one group taking care

306
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:45,400
Speaker 5: of another group.

307
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,080
Speaker 6: That's not how it was conceived. FA over State didn't

308
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:48,760
Speaker 6: start with priests.

309
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,600
Speaker 5: It started with one priest and lay people, right, And

310
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 5: that's as Bob mentioned that this is the goal spearhead

311
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,480
Speaker 5: of the Catholic Apostle through laity. The priests are more

312
00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,280
Speaker 5: or less chaplains and guides, the ones telling the lay

313
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,880
Speaker 5: people you know you're under us, you have to do

314
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 5: we tell you.

315
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,160
Speaker 1: Well, We'll be watching on where this goes. And it's

316
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,520
Speaker 1: certainly a major story that I don't think has gotten

317
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,720
Speaker 1: enough attention, but should and will. At the Vatican this week,

318
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,919
Speaker 1: Aid to the Church in Need released a report detailing

319
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,119
Speaker 1: the rise in Christian persecution around the world, and it

320
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,840
Speaker 1: is certainly voluminous. It's no secret that Nigeria has seen

321
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,960
Speaker 1: the death of more than fifty thousand Christians since two

322
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,600
Speaker 1: thousand and nine. The Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Petro Paoline, however,

323
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,679
Speaker 1: characterize the violence this week there as quote not a

324
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,160
Speaker 1: religious conflict, but rather more a societal one, for example,

325
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,919
Speaker 1: disputes between herders and farmers. We should also recognize that

326
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:56,520
Speaker 1: many Muslims are themselves victims of the same intolerance. End quote, Bob,

327
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,640
Speaker 1: your reaction, and I should put this in some context.

328
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 1: Three churches are destroyed in Nigeria every day. Thirty five

329
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,520
Speaker 1: Christians are killed every day, according to inter Society, which

330
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:08,119
Speaker 1: tracks this.

331
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,360
Speaker 2: What gives here? What do you think is happening?

332
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,040
Speaker 3: Well, Raymond, as you know, I just wrote a book

333
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,159
Speaker 3: about Gothic persecution throughout the world, and so I have

334
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,680
Speaker 3: a substantial section in Nigeria's. I know there's pretty well,

335
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 3: and it's true there is a conflict between Muslim cow

336
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:28,440
Speaker 3: herders who want land so that their flocks can graze,

337
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,200
Speaker 3: and farmers who may be Christians. But you don't get

338
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,639
Speaker 3: seven thousand. We think at least seven thousand Christians were

339
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,040
Speaker 3: killed through August in Nigeria alone, More than throughout the

340
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,160
Speaker 3: entire rest of the world.

341
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:42,640
Speaker 4: So is this just a land.

342
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,120
Speaker 3: Dispute among a few people that ends up in seven

343
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,959
Speaker 3: thousand bodies And we see, I mean, just horrifying examples

344
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,919
Speaker 3: of people being chased into buildings, buildings set on fire

345
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,720
Speaker 3: when the people try to escape their shot. There are

346
00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:01,399
Speaker 3: deliberate attacks on Christian sites like churches, in seminaries and whatnot.

347
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,320
Speaker 2: Schools to try, you know, to try to.

348
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,240
Speaker 3: Pass this off as if it's just some kind of

349
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:13,480
Speaker 3: economic clash, I just misrepresents what's actually going on there. Now,

350
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 3: it's true that the radical Muslims also attack more moderate Muslims.

351
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,080
Speaker 2: Yes, places in.

352
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,560
Speaker 3: Nigeria where Christians and Muslims get along reasonably well, but

353
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,200
Speaker 3: that's still to miss the point. If there are other

354
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,720
Speaker 3: Muslims being killed by the radical Muslims, it's not over land.

355
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 4: Disputes, it's over a religious difference.

356
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:34,920
Speaker 2: And the Church.

357
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,280
Speaker 3: I'm sorry to say this, but I think our church

358
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,600
Speaker 3: has failed to take into account the magnitude of the

359
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 3: Islamic problem in the world today. They keep wanting to

360
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,359
Speaker 3: think that, oh, you know, we owe them an apology

361
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 3: because we've been prejudicial towards them. Actually, they have been

362
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,399
Speaker 3: attacking Christians since the very beginning. It's built into the

363
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 3: Jahad that forms the basis of Islam. It it takes

364
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 3: different forms over history. Sometimes it's a little bit more subtle,

365
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,680
Speaker 3: but there's this part and parcel of that kind of

366
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,920
Speaker 3: drive toward a worldwide Cali faith, and the Church at

367
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:09,919
Speaker 3: some point is going to have to recognize this. I

368
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 3: think power Lean at a certain point is can also

369
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 3: have to recognize what he did in China, which is

370
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 3: turning over our Catholics were loyal to Rome to the

371
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,320
Speaker 3: tender mercies of the Communist party there. You want to

372
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 3: be nice, you want to have good relations with other

373
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 3: religions and the states, other people who organize their politics

374
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 3: differently than we do, but not at the expense of

375
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,600
Speaker 3: truth and not at the expense of our own people.

376
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 1: Father put this reticence to sort of call out what's

377
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 1: happening globally. These are the Islam and its bloody interaction

378
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,399
Speaker 1: with Christianity and other faiths. Put this in context of

379
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 1: the news we reported last week of the Muslim prayer

380
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 1: room being instituted of the Vatican Library. How does that

381
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:59,120
Speaker 1: speak to the Vatican's attitude here and unwillingness to appreciate

382
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 1: and wreckies what's obvious to the people on the ground,

383
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: certainly in Nigeria.

384
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 2: I've interviewed them.

385
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 5: Sure, no, what you and Bob say is is right

386
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,440
Speaker 5: on target. I was sad and when I saw those

387
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,679
Speaker 5: remarks and it just said, this is a typical diplomat speak.

388
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 5: You know this is you don't You don't get up

389
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,480
Speaker 5: before a microphone after church is burned down and say

390
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,680
Speaker 5: this is a land dispute. Essential, as Bob puts it,

391
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 5: If it's a fight between herders and farmers, fight over

392
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 5: what fight over land? It's not a fight over land

393
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 5: to fight over Christians being evicted and being slaughter so

394
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 5: that they'll flee the.

395
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 6: Northern part of Nigeria. We know this. What is the

396
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 6: context of it?

397
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 5: Sad to say, it's this idea if we never utter

398
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 5: a critical thought or word about Islam, that the situation

399
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 5: for Christians will improve, and in fact, if we cave

400
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:52,360
Speaker 5: into Islamic requirements, then somehow we're showing that we want

401
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,880
Speaker 5: to cooperate and all be friends. The Islamic prayer room

402
00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,080
Speaker 5: in the Vatican, for instance, why is that there? Why

403
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,479
Speaker 5: with those scholars who are doing research in the library

404
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,360
Speaker 5: as for a prayer room, well, in one sense they

405
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 5: like to pray. The second sense, they're seeing how much

406
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 5: the Christians will give them and see to them. Because

407
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 5: in the Islamic view, and this is you know, nobody

408
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 5: who's serious and Muslim will deny this. Islam views its

409
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 5: mission from God to conquer the whole world, to make

410
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:27,119
Speaker 5: it part of the faithful, and therefore symbolic steps in

411
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 5: conquering territory is a symbolic progress to bringing those people

412
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 5: into the Islamic religion. The great enemy that they perceive

413
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 5: is Christianity and Catholicism is at the center of it.

414
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 5: So we want to encourage people in the Islamic world

415
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 5: to say, don't fight against everybody as an enemy. Leave

416
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 5: people at peace. That's what we want. But you don't

417
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 5: get peace through weakness. So this is where I think

418
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 5: the Christian the Catholic hierarchy in Rome has to have

419
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 5: a realistic attitude because you say this stuff, but then

420
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 5: the next nun or priest who gets executed and kidnapped

421
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 5: and executed in Nigeria, Well, what is that? Was that

422
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 5: something to be covered up because it just contradicted what

423
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 5: the cardinals said.

424
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 6: No, that's the reality. We have to recognize it.

425
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also I doubt if there are a kidnapping

426
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: and assassinating priests because of the land.

427
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 2: Dispute in Nigeria.

428
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 1: You know, this is like the old Biden administration saying

429
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 1: the violence was being caused by climate change. I mean,

430
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. These are obstacations of the truth and it's

431
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: up to the Church at least to speak it out.

432
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 1: And as Bob said last week, the Muslim world perceives

433
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: this as nothing but weakness, particularly when you say, oh,

434
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 1: here have a side closet here at the Vatican Library.

435
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: It's seen as a weak move and that weakness will

436
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: be exploited. It's very sad, but let's move on here

437
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: the increasingly organized campaign. God knows, we've been covering this

438
00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: for months, if not years. This organized campaign by against

439
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 1: the traditional Latin Mass continues here in the US. But

440
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: there are five very significant Latin Mass liturgy is about

441
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: to be celebrated in Rome and in the United States.

442
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 1: On October twenty fifth, Cardinal Raymond Burke is going to

443
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: celebrate the first traditional Latin Mass at Saint Peter's Basilica.

444
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: Since France has suppressed the ancient right back in twenty

445
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: twenty two.

446
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 6: There.

447
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: This liturgy is part of a pilgrimage that's been a

448
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: tradition in Rome since Benedict the sixteenth some more on

449
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: Pontificum pilgrimage Father. Since Pope Leo has ostensibly given the

450
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 1: go ahead for this liturgy, should this be received as

451
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: a hopeful sign of some sort of reproach mall that

452
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: might be on the horizon.

453
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,880
Speaker 5: Oh, absolutely, it is a hopeful sign, and I'm very

454
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 5: pleased as is happening. There's going to be a large

455
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,239
Speaker 5: attendance at this pilgrimage. And let's recall that, you know

456
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 5: Leo has spoken about unity in the church right from

457
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 5: the beginning as well one of his goals. Well, when

458
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 5: you see the big crowd coming to Saint Peter's and

459
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 5: a Roman cardinal Cardinal Burke celebrating Mass, this can only

460
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 5: be viewed as a moment to say, where what have

461
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 5: we making for unity with this group of the faithful.

462
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 5: So I'm very encouraged by this.

463
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: Bob San Francisco, Archbishop Salvatory Courtleione will celebrate a traditional

464
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: Latin Mass in his archdiocese on All Saints Today. Cardinal

465
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: Gerhard Mueller is celebrating in Philadelphia, as is Cardinal Robert

466
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: Sarah again traditional Latin masses. What do you make of

467
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: these traditional liturgies and is this indicative of the voice

468
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,959
Speaker 1: of the TLM faithful and do you think it will

469
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: be heard in Rome?

470
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 4: Well, I hope it is.

471
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously, I think the best thing that could

472
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 3: happen is, however, Leo would like to massage this, is

473
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 3: that we either just declare traditionalist custodis, which was the

474
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 3: document that limited the Latin mass as Nolan Volie, or

475
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 3: find some subtle way to say, well, you know that

476
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 3: that was a reaction to a certain moment back then,

477
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 3: but now we can go back to what was really

478
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 3: a peaceful settlement by Benedict the sixteenth that you know,

479
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 3: people have a right to celebrate this, just as long

480
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 3: as they're not creating a problem for the bishop or

481
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 3: some sort of division within it, within a dioceis. I

482
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 3: just agree with Father a little bit about this, because

483
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 3: I have a feeling that there are people in Rome

484
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,919
Speaker 3: who are going to see that large enthusiastic group of

485
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 3: TLM people coming into Saint Peter's and they're going to say, oh,

486
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 3: this is going in a direction that we don't want,

487
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 3: and I think that's been part of the hidden energy

488
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 3: behind the.

489
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 4: Way that they've tried to restrict the Mass.

490
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 3: But then, look, this is all to the good. If

491
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 3: it was such a horrible thing to celebrate the old Mass,

492
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 3: why allow it to happen in Saint Peter's? And God

493
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 3: bless Cardinal Burke because he's been so strong over the

494
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 3: years about this and he's now going to be allowed

495
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 3: to say that ins.

496
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 4: And Saint Peter's.

497
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 3: You can't help but think that that's a hopeful sign,

498
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 3: and you have to hope that it will branch out

499
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: into a full understanding that this is not a problem.

500
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 3: There's actually a way to solve.

501
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 4: Some of the divisions within the church.

502
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 3: Let you know, letting people do something that's not harmful,

503
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 3: it's actually helpful in their own way.

504
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: Well, and help the young people.

505
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: It also allows young people who are so enthusiastic about

506
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: this right to fly their colors, to come out and

507
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: show their faith.

508
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: And one hopes that that that.

509
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: Would break through some of the what I see as

510
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: political resistance within the Vatican to this ancient right and

511
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 1: the people who love it.

512
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 2: This isn't a horrible thing.

513
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: It's a living organization of an expression of the faith

514
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church, and it should be celebrated, it

515
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: should be allowed. But we'll see what happens here in

516
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: the United States. At the Jesuit University Georgetown, Father incoming

517
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: university president Eduardo penalvar has a problem with church teaching.

518
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: He said, quote, I reject the church's teaching on homosexuality,

519
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 1: so I would favor an even easier way out by

520
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: treating committed gay relationships as morally valuable. I take inspiration

521
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: in my own marriage from the committed gay couples I

522
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: have known.

523
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 2: End quote. Father.

524
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: He also says he has a problem with the Supreme

525
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: Court overturning Roe v.

526
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: Wade.

527
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: This is the man running the country's pre eminent institution

528
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: of Catholic higher education.

529
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 5: Your reaction, well, that title has been lost, I think

530
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 5: with this kind of maneuver, I mean, what in the

531
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 5: world just step back to say where are we in

532
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 5: the life of the church. First of all, Number one,

533
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 5: the board of trustees entrusted this man with the presidency,

534
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 5: and this was a known fact. These comments were made

535
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 5: about ten years ago, that he rejects church teaching. So

536
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 5: you're heading a Catholic university founded by the Society of

537
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 5: Jesus for what reason to provide Catholic education with students

538
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 5: and the presidents saying I don't think Catholic education is true.

539
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 5: You know, on morality is choose? Secondly, what kind of

540
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 5: integrity does he have as a Catholic If he can

541
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 5: still consider himself a Catholic, which I assume he does,

542
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 5: that he can be a pick and choose Catholic. In

543
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 5: other words, he can say, my Catholicism is self defined.

544
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 5: I define Catholicism not to include the teaching homosexual activity

545
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 5: is immoral. Is this the kind of Catholic that you

546
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 5: want to say? This is a man of integrity and

547
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 5: deep faith and he's followed Jesus. Now, this is a

548
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 5: man who's picking and choosing his religion and then he's

549
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 5: going to foster that atmosphere at his university.

550
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: Terrible Bob as father intimates there.

551
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: Penealvar is currently president of another Jesuit institution, Seattle University

552
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: in Washington, and according to the Georgetown Board, they said

553
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: President Penalvare is an exceptional leader steeped in the Catholic

554
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: and Jesuit tradition who brings a wealth of experience in

555
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: higher educational, global mindset of commitment to social justice, an

556
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: academic excellence, and a bold vision for Georgetown's future. Bob,

557
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: I can see he's steeped in just with tradition, but

558
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: Catholic tradition.

559
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 3: Your thoughts, well, you know, these Jesuit universities, by and large,

560
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 3: some years ago stop calling themselves Catholic institutions. They said

561
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 3: that they are in the Jesuit tradition. Sadly, I mean,

562
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 3: we all remember Jesuits who were sort of the marine

563
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 3: corps of the church at one point, and sadly, lately

564
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 3: the Jesuits have been something quite different. You know, it

565
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 3: strikes me that he's sort of the academic equivalent of

566
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 3: Dick Durbin. You know, he touches on all those liberal,

567
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 3: progressive Catholic things that people like to pursue, and he's

568
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 3: you know, he must be good on environmentalism and you know,

569
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 3: other things like that social justice. But as far as

570
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: being the head of a Catholic institution, it's hard to

571
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 3: understand why you would pick someone this, except if you

572
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 3: think that that is with Catholicism is these days, and

573
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: even as you were just describing him. I mean, it

574
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 3: took me back to that first Synod on the Family

575
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen. Father and I were both there when

576
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 3: they read the interim report and it was talking about

577
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: valuing what is good in homosexual relationships. Well, you know,

578
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 3: I'm sure that you know homosexual couples if they're not

579
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 3: fighting the way heterosexual couples sometimes do, you know, they

580
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 3: do nice things for one another. But is that any

581
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 3: reason to alter teaching about the sexual nature of what's

582
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 3: going on there? Obviously not. I mean, this is a

583
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 3: category mistake. So whatever inspiration he personally takes from people

584
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 3: that he knows to bring that into what he's going

585
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: to be advocating as the president of the oldest Catholic

586
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 3: institution in the United States. It goes all the way

587
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 3: back to the eighteenth century. Jane John Carroll, Bishop John Carroll.

588
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: It's a kind of a surrender to the culture. There's

589
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 3: no other way to describe it.

590
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: Also, this week, Pope Leo except the resignation Bishop Edward

591
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: Scharfenberger in the Diocese of Albany, New York, and he's

592
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: appointed a former Boston auxiliary Bishop Mark O'Connell to lead

593
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: the beleaguered diocese. It filed for bankruptcy back in twenty

594
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: twenty three in the wake of sex abuse settlements. Bishop

595
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: O'Connell is a canonist, a priest who's hosted his own

596
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: radio program, Bob.

597
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 2: Perhaps he'll be an effective communicator. What do you think?

598
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 3: I have to say. I don't know very much about

599
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 3: this auxiliary bishop. There have been so many problems in

600
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 3: the Albany archidises bishop who left and married a secretary

601
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 3: of his. As I hear from people in New York,

602
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 3: it was utterly ineffective in trying to deal with the

603
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 3: way that the state of New York and New York

604
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 3: City was moving away and against Catholicism. So it's going

605
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 3: to take a strong hand. I don't know if this

606
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 3: priest is up to it, but there's got to be

607
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 3: a significant change. Maybe Father, who lives in New York,

608
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 3: it would have more light on this than I do.

609
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: Father.

610
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: Bishop O'Connell is on record opposing the denial of communion

611
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: to pro abortion politicians, similar to Cardinal Supic's position on this.

612
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: Apparently he feels the denying communion to certain public figures

613
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: is focused too heavily on abortion At the expense of

614
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: other issues.

615
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 5: Your take, Yeah, I'm to say the least disappointed with that,

616
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 5: because the enforcement of canon law is one of the

617
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 5: prime responsibilities of a bisminc. Candon nine point fifteen is

618
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 5: quite clear that if your obstinately persist in grave sin,

619
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 5: meaning promotion of abortion rights, such as Dick Durbin, then

620
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 5: you should be denied communion. And you know, Bishop of

621
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 5: Procky of Springfield, Illinois has acted accordingly in many others have.

622
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 5: Albany Diaces is in a real crisis, not only financially,

623
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 5: it has a reduced number of priests, it has many parishes.

624
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 6: They are going to have to close some churches.

625
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 5: So he's going to Bishop grecconnell is going to have

626
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 5: a real challenge on his hands, and you know, I

627
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 5: hope and pray that he will, you know, fulfill those

628
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 5: duties of a bishop to teach the faith and then

629
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 5: act prudently as regards you know, reorganization.

630
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 1: Jens Pope Leo continues to form his courier. Those are

631
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: the bureaucracies in the offices in the Vatican. Last week

632
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: he named Cardinal Blaze, supicch of Chicago and Cardinal Baldassare

633
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: Rena the Vicar General of Rome as the two newest

634
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: members of the Pontifical Commission for the Vatican City State. Now,

635
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: this is the city state currently run by a sister,

636
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: Rafaela Petrini. She is the first ever female governor, who

637
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: was of course appointed by Pope Francis in February. Father

638
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: these appointments are five year terms. What are the Pope's

639
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: choices here?

640
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: Tell us?

641
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 1: And how important is this commission running the Vatican City

642
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: State to the Holy See itself?

643
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 5: Well, I can only comment about Cardinal Supic because that's

644
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 5: what I can interpret. I really don't get Cardinal Raina

645
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 5: that sort of goes without questioning because he's a Roman cardinal.

646
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 5: The Cardinal Supik is an American cardinal. There are a

647
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 5: lot of other American cardinals. This one gets picked. He's

648
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 5: seventy six years old. He's so he's beyond the retirement age.

649
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 5: Now cardinals in Rome are typically left to their eighty

650
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 5: So I think this is a signal that Cardinal Supic

651
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 5: will be the Archbishop of Chicago for the next four years.

652
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 5: This doesn't involve him leaving Chicago to move to Rome.

653
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 5: He can travel to Rome for meetings and then also

654
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 5: conduct things electronically. So I think this is a vote

655
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 5: in favor of Cardinal supiic Bi Pope Leo. And just

656
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 5: as were his comments to the reporter about Cardinal Supek

657
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 5: giving an award to or planning to give an award

658
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 5: to Senator Durbin, and he basically said, well, you have

659
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 5: to look at Senator's whole record before making a judgment,

660
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 5: which is basically saying, don't pay no attention, pay little

661
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 5: attention to the abortion advocates, because his whole record basically

662
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 5: says he deserves the award.

663
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 6: That's how I interpret it.

664
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: So, Bob, is this another sign of the Pope's confidence

665
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: in the leadership and character of Cardinal Seuperpach or is

666
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: it just a bureaucratic appointment and symbolic.

667
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 3: Well, that could be both at the same time. You know,

668
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,439
Speaker 3: I hear from people in Chicago who are very much

669
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 3: of the opinion as I am that the Cardinal Superpach

670
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 3: has done a number of things that are really quite

671
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 3: problematic for the church in the United States. And yet

672
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 3: they say that he ran the archdiocese well, which may

673
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 3: be true. I mean they may be you know, conducting business, well,

674
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 3: maybe financially things are well, the appointments are going well.

675
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 3: They're moving things along briskly. But the question is what

676
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 3: are you're moving them along toward? And that's the question

677
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 3: that I just don't know what the kind of committee

678
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 3: that is going to be on running the Vatican, What

679
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 3: kind of influence is that going to have. Where are

680
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 3: they going to put certain resources, How are they going

681
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 3: to move the Vatican itself forward?

682
00:36:58,040 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 4: And that's a much larger question.

683
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: While we're talking about the Vatican, the Prefect for the

684
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: Dicastri Divine Worship, that's the Vatican's liturgy office. It's liturgical office.

685
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,439
Speaker 1: Cardinal Arthur Roche is urging a gathering of what's called

686
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions to follow closely Pope

687
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: Francis's guidelines on the mass. Roche is likely one of

688
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: the prime movers behind the assault we've been chronicling against

689
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: the traditional at mass here in the United States. But

690
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: according to Roche, quote, the depth and breath of Francis's

691
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 1: liturgical vision offers us countless opportunities to pause for reflection

692
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: in order to appreciate the great gift that has been

693
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: handed us onto us.

694
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 2: In the liturgical books end quote.

695
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 1: Now, this liturgical organization was established by the American bishops

696
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine to implement the reforms of the

697
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: Second Vatican consul Father. The Vatican just can't seem to

698
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: quit the legacy of Pope Francis. Is this the end

699
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 1: of Benedict's reform of the reform?

700
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 2: Do you think.

701
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 6: You know?

702
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 5: The reform of the reform was an idea that we

703
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 5: have to go back and look at what happened after

704
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 5: the Council. Because remember the new Mass was not produced

705
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 5: at Vatican two. It was produced by a commission after

706
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 5: Vatican two based on criteria that Vatican two established. So

707
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 5: the idea is, well, can we go back and look

708
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 5: at that committee work and come up with some solutions

709
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 5: to obvious areas of dispute. That's what Pope Benedict was

710
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 5: trying to do. Pope Francis's liturgical legacy. There's not a

711
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 5: lot there because basically a parfer trying to suppress the

712
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 5: traditional Latin Mass. He did a few things like make

713
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 5: you could have women washed feet at the good on

714
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 5: Holy Thursday. He said lp women could be installed Alkolai.

715
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 5: He did a few things like that. It is strange

716
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 5: that we're getting this exaltation of the herod of Pope

717
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 5: Francis for the liturgy with Pope Francis spent very little

718
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 5: time on that.

719
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: Question, Bob, What does it tell us that this Francis

720
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: model of the liturgy is being held up in this

721
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: new pontificate. I mean, everybody thought pop Leo was going

722
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: to sort of blaze his own path. It sounds like

723
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: he's just carrying the torch of the pope that preceded him.

724
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 4: Yeah.

725
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 3: I think a lot of that language has just overblown.

726
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 3: His father rightly says, there really isn't a lot of

727
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 3: depth and breadth and all that, you know, teaching liturgy

728
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 3: as far as we can tell, in Pope Francis's vision.

729
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 3: I think what it taps into is two things. First

730
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 3: of all, I think Popelia wants to hear messages reaffirming

731
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 3: what Francis did. They're not going to be any major departures.

732
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 3: If there are depressures, they're going to be rather subtle

733
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 3: and maybe take a long long time. And regrettably, I

734
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 3: think we all believe that there's some urgent matters that

735
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 3: need to be dealt with, and for me, this liturgy

736
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 3: language sounds almost like ideological control. You know, you need

737
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 3: to study these things, you know, you know deeply. So

738
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 3: on the one hand, I think it's it's expressing what

739
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 3: Leo himself wants. But on the other hand, there's there's

740
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 3: a kind of continued desire to intervene at you know,

741
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 3: at the at the I mean, Rocha is the one

742
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 3: who's told bishops you cannot even listing your bulletins when

743
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 3: they're going to be Latin masses. So I mean there's

744
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 3: really a kind of a granular desire to control what

745
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 3: is going down even down to the parish level, let

746
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 3: alone the diocesan level. So this is worrisome to me.

747
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 3: I hope it's not what it looks like, but I

748
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 3: fear that this is going to be, you know, further

749
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 3: interference and the kind of liberties that I think bishops

750
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 3: should have, and and the overall more relaxing of these

751
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 3: problems over the liturgy.

752
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 4: That don't need to be there. We can we can step.

753
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 3: Back from that kind of restrictiveness and it would help

754
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: the unity.

755
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 4: Of the church.

756
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, so long as we're talking about Pope Leo express

757
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: seeing himself, he was caught on a live microphone expounding

758
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: on his missionary experience and how that influenced his thinking

759
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 1: on economics, poverty, and war.

760
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,240
Speaker 7: Listen, the missionary experience, I think opened my own heart

761
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 7: and mind to kind of understanding that we need to

762
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 7: work together in the world to make some kind of

763
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 7: difference and many big challenges. I'm convinced that the technology,

764
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 7: the production capacity that we have in the world today,

765
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 7: there should be no.

766
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 6: One who was hungry.

767
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: Father, your thoughts on this view of economics, I mean,

768
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: certainly we can strive to end hunger and war, but

769
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: there is human nature and original sin in the world.

770
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 5: Well, yes, and so hunger as a rea, as a

771
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 5: problem in the world has various causes and we have

772
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 5: to recognize that. So you have famines that are caused

773
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 5: by nature, you know, you have famines caused by warfare.

774
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 5: You have economic scarcity created by dictatorship, like in North Korea.

775
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 5: I mean they have a man made famine there at

776
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 5: various times in their history. Technological progress is helping. I mean,

777
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 5: modern farming techniques are such that in developed countries where

778
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 5: you know there's a market and products, they're bursting at

779
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 5: the seams. You know, we do very well here Canada,

780
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 5: United states other Ukraine before the war was supplying a

781
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 5: huge amount of grain for all.

782
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 2: Over the world.

783
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 5: So yeah, we can. Technology is an important element. But

784
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 5: Bob knows this better than I because he's written on it.

785
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 5: The main factors hampering economic development are not the ill

786
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 5: will of some rich person who doesn't want to feed

787
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 5: the poor. Bob probably can talk about this better than I.

788
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 3: Go ahead, Bob, Yeah, you know, the Pope has actually

789
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 3: criticized the fact that Elon Musk is so wealthy. Now

790
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 3: this is I mean, it's a kind of an easy

791
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 3: way to make the case that there are some people

792
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 3: who are extraordinarily wealthy and others who were extraordinarily poor.

793
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 3: But what Musk does with that money, I mean, what

794
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 3: he's done in terms of producing you know, electric cars

795
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 3: and space exploration and giving people jobs and whatnot. It's

796
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 3: a remarkable thing. And he's also engaged in actually a

797
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 3: lot of philanthropic activity. You know, Father's exactly right. And

798
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 3: of course there's enough food to feed people. You remember

799
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 3: back in the day that the population controllers were saying

800
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 3: that there would be immense famines by nineteen eighty and

801
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 3: millions of people would die. Will never happen and why

802
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 3: did it never happen? Because human inventiveness and human caring

803
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 3: and the capacity we have to identify problems and respond

804
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 3: to them is what really is the wealth of nations

805
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 3: that we've learned that that is what happens, and we

806
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 3: don't have any necessary shortages of food. But all those

807
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 3: things that father was talking about warfare, you know, tyrants,

808
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 3: cultural differences. You know, it's you could pod pipe all

809
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 3: kinds of food to Africa, but how much of it

810
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 3: gets stolen? You know what happens. And that's the problem.

811
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 3: And I'm war you know, I want to go back

812
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 3: to this war question. That is too of course, we

813
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 3: all want peace. I mentioned in a previous episode that

814
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 3: we did that we have a just war theory in Catholicism,

815
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 3: that war per se is an ambiguous thing. I mean, obviously,

816
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 3: the Russian invasion of Ukraine is an injustice, and the

817
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 3: ongoing attack against civilian targets in Ukraine by Putin is

818
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 3: a war crime. There's no question about that. But what

819
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 3: is it What is the status.

820
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 4: Of the way that Ukraine is going about war?

821
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 3: That self defense war is absolutely necessary because there are

822
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 3: evil people, and there are greedy people and ambitious people

823
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 3: in the world and they have to be responded to.

824
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 3: So war is in and of itself is an ambivalent category.

825
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 3: You know, the ancient Romans had a slightly ironic phrase

826
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 3: see vis pacem para bellum. If you want peace, prepare

827
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 3: for war. So you have to be able to protect

828
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 3: yourself and also help other countries that are as we

829
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 3: are in the United States helping Ukraine to defend itself.

830
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 3: So look, it's good to be against war in a

831
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,720
Speaker 3: generic sense. It's good to say, yeah, we can feed people,

832
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 3: but it probably isn't a good idea to have simplistics,

833
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 3: give the impression of simplistic solutions for the fact that,

834
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 3: as you rightly say, Raymond, we're in a fallen world

835
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 3: with imperfect human beings.

836
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: Before we go, there's an important story I think we

837
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 1: should address. A priest in Spain was acquitted this week

838
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 1: for accusations of hate speech when he spoke out about Islam.

839
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: Father Custodio Balistaire made comments critical of Islam back in

840
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, and a Spanish prosecutor sought a three year

841
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: prison sentence against the priest, alleging that his remarks incited

842
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: hatred against Muslims. Father Balasteriir's defense argued that the critique

843
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 1: targeted radical Islam, not the wider Muslim community, and the

844
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: priest had called Jahadism quote a predatory stain, and he

845
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: went on to say that radical Jihadism and violent Islam

846
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,879
Speaker 1: want to destroy Europe and the Western civilization.

847
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: Father, you've been following this story.

848
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: How important was this acquittal to the concept of free speech,

849
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: not only in Spain but around the world.

850
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 5: No, it's very important, and it's indicative of the hostility

851
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 5: in Spain these days, both toward Catholicism, which is the

852
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 5: cultural and religious heritage of the country. So it's not

853
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 5: just directed against this priest, it's directed against the entire

854
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 5: history of Spain once it became Christian. But then, secondly,

855
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 5: thank god, this ponce unique. They say in French, the

856
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 5: one thought that's tolerated by the government has been overthrown

857
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 5: by a judge. Say no, if the government doesn't agree

858
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 5: with Father ballast there, then the government has to make

859
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 5: its arguments. They shouldn't prosecute him and put him in jail.

860
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 5: So the judge found in his favor. That's a very

861
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 5: good thing.

862
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 1: Now, Bob, dialogue and discussion, you would think would be

863
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: welcomed in the world, but Islam and criticism in it

864
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: seems to be off the table.

865
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 2: And foreboden.

866
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: What should we take from this decision by the Spanish

867
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: court and is dialogue possible?

868
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 4: Well, it would be.

869
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: I mean, you can always be in dialogue with people

870
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 3: who authentically want to be in dialogue with you.

871
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 4: They're going to be They're going to be.

872
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 3: Be a real really engaging you. But I think there

873
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 3: are two things that were.

874
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 4: Happening here in Spain.

875
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 3: One is, you know, this kind of leftist socialist government

876
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 3: that they have goes after the Church in all sorts

877
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 3: of different ways. And thank God that the rule of law,

878
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 3: I think the proper rule of law held in this

879
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 3: particular case. But the second thing that's going on in

880
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 3: Spain and throughout Europe actually these days almost every country

881
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 3: except the country is like Hungary that have forbidden massive

882
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 3: Muslim immigration, is that they are intimidated by the large

883
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,919
Speaker 3: Muslim populations that they've allowed into their countries. You see

884
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 3: this in the UK, you see it in France, you

885
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,919
Speaker 3: see it in Germany. And in a sense it's understandable

886
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 3: because they have large numbers of radical Islamists in their

887
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 3: nations these days, So what are they going to do?

888
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 3: The problem is, I think that they have to become

889
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 3: much more vigorous in enforcing the law. I mean across

890
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: the board and enforcing the law and allowing criticism to

891
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 3: be made. And you don't arrest the person who makes

892
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 3: the criticism. You arrest the person who threatens the person

893
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 3: who makes the criticism. We've seen all too often lately

894
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 3: that people are being accused of being provocative because they

895
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 3: talk about the way that Islam is a threat to them.

896
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 4: That's got to stop.

897
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 2: Posse grateful to you all as always, and look.

898
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: If you want more of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse,

899
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: subscribe to the Arroyo Gande Show on YouTube or on

900
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: the Arroyo Gandei podcast wherever you.

901
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 2: Get yours on behalf of Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray.

902
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: Thank you gens.

903
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: Until the Posse rides again, stay the course, follow the light.

904
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 2: I'm raiming Arroyo. We'll see you next time.

905
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 1: The Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse is produced in partnership with

906
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: DP Studios and iHeart Podcasts. It's available on the iHeartRadio

907
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: app or wherever you get your podcasts,