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Speaker 1: Right onto this week's show, Welcome to Maren Talks Your Money,
Speaker 1: the personal finance edition of Meren Talks Money. In these
Speaker 1: blonus podcasts, we talk about the best strategies for making
Speaker 1: the most of you all money. I am Maren sumset
Speaker 1: Web and with me as ever senior reporter and Money
Speaker 1: to Suld author John Steback Hi John, hi elm Right,
Speaker 1: we are onto one of our favorite topics. Well it
Speaker 1: really house prices is our favorite topic, but we're actually
Speaker 1: going to revisit mortgages, which is connected to our favorite topic,
Speaker 1: and of course, dear to all of our hearts for
Speaker 1: those of you who are new to the show, last
Speaker 1: bring we published an eight part series on how to
Speaker 1: buy a house in the UK, which I strongly recommend,
Speaker 1: by the way, But since then, the landscape for interest
Speaker 1: rates in particular has changed drastically, so we thought it
Speaker 1: was worth revisiting this topic and looking questions like what
Speaker 1: is the best type to get now, who has the
Speaker 1: best rate, what's most important when trying to choose the
Speaker 1: best mortgage for you? And of course also is now
Speaker 1: really the best time to buy a house at all?
Speaker 1: To help us for that, we welcome back to the
Speaker 1: show Anthony Emerson, Director at Trinity Financial.
Speaker 2: Hello Anthony, Hi Maren, how are you good?
Speaker 1: Thank you and thank you for joining us again. We
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Now you've already heard me say the
Speaker 1: question is then going to ask you, so why don't
Speaker 1: we just start? The landscape is saying a lot since
Speaker 1: we last saw you, last spoke to you do, run
Speaker 1: us through what's been happening.
Speaker 2: The landscape has changed dramatically. I mean, last time we spoke,
Speaker 2: we were on a journey where we were expecting one,
Speaker 2: maybe two Bank of England based rate cuts. The inflation
Speaker 2: looked like it was a little bit more in control,
Speaker 2: and then it's flipped entirely on its head and we
Speaker 2: are now in a position where the Iran war has
Speaker 2: created an immediate surge in the interest rates that are
Speaker 2: available to clients. We saw within a two week period
Speaker 2: and increase of around about one point two percent in
Speaker 2: the cost of borrowing, which is exactly the opposite of
Speaker 2: what we were hoping for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one points so up from what was it before.
Speaker 1: What was the sort of classic two effects before the
Speaker 1: war began.
Speaker 2: The lowest rates are available at the point where the
Speaker 2: war started was around about three point six, and then
Speaker 2: that jumped up to four point seven as the sort
Speaker 2: of best rate option that was about available, and that
Speaker 2: was we're a stonkingly high forty percent deposit.
Speaker 1: Wow, if we went out today with say a classic
Speaker 1: ten percent deposit looking for two year effects, what would
Speaker 1: we end up.
Speaker 2: Paying at the moment just short of five percent? And
Speaker 2: that I mean the interest rates went up by sort
Speaker 2: of one point two where everything was in excessive five percent.
Speaker 2: But since then we've seen a little bit of a
Speaker 2: softening as the swap rates have edged downwards a little bit,
Speaker 2: and I think the uncertainty caused lenders to over compensate
Speaker 2: for the uncertainty. And then as things have sort of
Speaker 2: panned out and they've got more of an idea of
Speaker 2: how it's going to affect, we've had the rates come
Speaker 2: down a little bit, run about sort of point two
Speaker 2: of a percent, So we still that one percent higher.
Speaker 2: The lenders, bless them, are doing absolutely everything they can
Speaker 2: to try and get us into the properties that we on.
Speaker 2: I mean, we've seen more and more lenders these days
Speaker 2: change their affordability calculations. So we've now got more lenders
Speaker 2: lending five and a half times your income, even up
Speaker 2: to six times your income for certain people. And you know,
Speaker 2: we have really reached that inflection point still where that
Speaker 2: whole debate about rental versus owning on a month to
Speaker 2: month cost basis, as if you're young, then you've got
Speaker 2: a deposit, it probably makes sense for you still to
Speaker 2: buy a house than it is for you to rent
Speaker 2: really it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not getting a little closer with these prices.
Speaker 1: I mean, I always think when you see when you
Speaker 1: see a lender prepared to offer six times income in
Speaker 1: a in a dodgy economy with very low growth in
Speaker 1: rail wages, particularly in the private sector, it makes me
Speaker 1: feel nervous that maybe they've relaxed those affordability measures a
Speaker 1: little too much.
Speaker 2: I can totally see where you're coming from on that.
Speaker 2: But the problem is the Renters Reform Act has also
Speaker 2: kicked now, which is meaning that we've got more and
Speaker 2: more landlords leaving the sector, and that means that we're
Speaker 2: going to have less rental properties available, which is going
Speaker 2: to drive the prices up. It's going to have completely
Speaker 2: the opposite sort of effect that maybe the government wanted,
Speaker 2: but it is definitely going to mean that renting is
Speaker 2: going to get more and more expensive as we move forward.
Speaker 1: Interesting, so you'd expect buying to become more affordable, prices
Speaker 1: to come down, and we're seen suddenly at a collapse
Speaker 1: in house price growth and we're seeing falls in absolute
Speaker 1: nominal terms in quite a lot of areas now, particularly
Speaker 1: in London, and you'd expect that to continue partly as
Speaker 1: a result of this rental reform, I think so.
Speaker 2: I mean we're seeing that flats in particular, which were
Speaker 2: the vast majority of the rental stock, a lot more
Speaker 2: stock is on the market and therefore those prices are
Speaker 2: being pushed downwards because of the supply and demand imbalance.
Speaker 2: You can probably pick up a fairly decent deal in
Speaker 2: the rental in a flat market at the moment, then
Speaker 2: you could maybe compared to a year or two ago.
Speaker 2: That means that obviously, if you are a starter, first
Speaker 2: time buyer, there is probably a couple of good deals
Speaker 2: out there which will make sense. And obviously the bigger
Speaker 2: the deposit you've got. You know, we're looking at rental properties.
Speaker 2: If you bought something at circus six hundred odd thousand
Speaker 2: pounds and you were, you know, in your early thirties,
Speaker 2: you could probably get a mortgage costing year round about
Speaker 2: two and a half thousand pounds on a capital repayment basis,
Speaker 2: even at ninety percent lines of value. Now those sorts
Speaker 2: of properties from what we've seen, are renting for around
Speaker 2: about two and a half thousand pounds, so it's quite equitable,
Speaker 2: but obviously in your in your capital repayment mortgage, there
Speaker 2: is an element of capital repayment which you are getting
Speaker 2: back over the course of time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that that whole thing can still work. So
Speaker 1: do you think that rates have settled for now?
Speaker 2: Who knows at the moment. You know, we've had We've
Speaker 2: had a couple of lenders just this morning saying that
Speaker 2: they're reducing their rates. But when I say reducing their
Speaker 2: only coming down by zero point zero five of a percent,
Speaker 2: So it's very very nominal. We are very nervous about
Speaker 2: the fact that inflation is a sort of rear wood
Speaker 2: looking metric, and we are yet to see the full
Speaker 2: effect of inflation and the pressures that that puts on
Speaker 2: everything else come through in the figures. So we think that,
Speaker 2: you know, the cost of fuel, fertilasa and all the
Speaker 2: other bits and pieces is really going to come to
Speaker 2: the foe in the next couple of months, and you
Speaker 2: might see rates remain at this sort of level for
Speaker 2: a while while they wait for more data to come through.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm nice. Pose it the question that I know
Speaker 1: that everyone wants to ask, And if I hadn't interrupted John,
Speaker 1: I think he might have been about to ask it. Sorry,
Speaker 1: John is if you need to remortgage in the near future,
Speaker 1: do you do it now or do you wait? And
Speaker 1: from what you've just said, it rather sound to me
Speaker 1: like you would say do it now because these inflationary
Speaker 1: infacts are still to come.
Speaker 2: We have this conversation with people all the time where
Speaker 2: they think that you need to wait to be able
Speaker 2: to secure something. You can remortgage your property if you're
Speaker 2: up for remortgage up to six months early earlier than
Speaker 2: your expiry dates of your current product. If the rates
Speaker 2: improve from that point going forward, you can always ditch
Speaker 2: the application that you've made, either with your existing lender
Speaker 2: or with a new provider, and then reapply for a
Speaker 2: new rate or new products, or whatever it might be
Speaker 2: going forward. I'd much rather clients are prepared and get
Speaker 2: their mortgage set and settled six months ahead of time,
Speaker 2: and then every month catch up with their mortgage broke
Speaker 2: just kind of say, let's have a look at the
Speaker 2: market again. Has it improved? Should we make another application
Speaker 2: for something cheaper? Too many people are leaving it right
Speaker 2: to the last minute, and if something goes against them,
Speaker 2: they may very well end up paying quite a bit
Speaker 2: more than they had to.
Speaker 1: I haven't realized you could do that kind of rolling rearranging.
Speaker 3: How do you, John, I was aware of that. I'd
Speaker 3: just would like to just double check. Are they don't
Speaker 3: say to that Antony late. For example, you don't have
Speaker 3: to pee the arrangement fee up front. There's no sort
Speaker 3: of non refundable costs involved.
Speaker 2: Generally speaking, John, you have lenders providing you with free
Speaker 2: valuation and free legal transfer nowadays, and because of that,
Speaker 2: we can secure something with no money down. The arrangement
Speaker 2: fee varies from product to product, from free to fifteen
Speaker 2: hundred two hundred to fifteen hundred to two thousand pounds
Speaker 2: for each product, but you can opt to add them
Speaker 2: to the loan at the end when the mortgage comp
Speaker 2: So therefore there's no money down from your side to
Speaker 2: be able to get in and do that application. And
Speaker 2: at least you have something in your back pocket which
Speaker 2: basically allows you to protect yourself from any upward increase
Speaker 2: in rates.
Speaker 3: Yes, so basically you should definitely do it, But there's
Speaker 3: no down't say to.
Speaker 2: This, absolutely no downside other than the poor mortgage broker
Speaker 2: might need to do his job two three, four times over.
Speaker 1: What about if you're what about if you're buying, you're
Speaker 1: taking on a new mortgage, and you say you say
Speaker 1: you're looking for a house right now, can you do
Speaker 1: the same kind of thing thing, Well, I haven't found
Speaker 1: a flat yet, but I'm definitely going to find one.
Speaker 1: Can I arrange a mortgage and then keep rolling that
Speaker 1: over or I can't arrange the mortgage until I've actually
Speaker 1: found the house.
Speaker 2: You have to have found a property first in order
Speaker 2: to make a full mortgage application, and at that point
Speaker 2: the mortgage offer comes out, and as long as you
Speaker 2: haven't yet exchanged, we can keep reviewing the rate and
Speaker 2: change in the application accordingly. So if you took out
Speaker 2: a mortgage application with San Sander, for example, and you
Speaker 2: know the rate went from four point seven to four
Speaker 2: point five, we could ring San Sander up, get a
Speaker 2: new mortgage offer issued, and they would issue a new
Speaker 2: mortgage offer at the lower interest rate. The reason that
Speaker 2: we say that you can do it up to the
Speaker 2: points of exchange is that once you've exchanged contracts, because
Speaker 2: you have to complete on a set day and a
Speaker 2: set timeline, it's very risky to go back to the
Speaker 2: bank and ask for a change to be made, because
Speaker 2: the bank has the right to reassess the entire loan
Speaker 2: under whatever their new basis is. So affordability might have
Speaker 2: slightly changed, the kind of property that you're after might
Speaker 2: have slightly changed, so there is a risk that the
Speaker 2: lender might pull the product at that point. However, generally speaking,
Speaker 2: it doesn't affect the client's application. Okay.
Speaker 1: So, given the length of time there often is between
Speaker 1: an offer being accepted and exchange, it's worth getting your
Speaker 1: mortgage offer in as quickly as possible because it gives
Speaker 1: you there's great optionality and that if rates go up,
Speaker 1: not your problem. If rates go down, you can reallygotiate.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. That's one hundred percent correct, Okay. Interesting, and I
Speaker 2: think too many people, especially when it comes to remortgaging,
Speaker 2: don't really know that fact, and you know, they wait
Speaker 2: and wait and wait hoping for a better situation. Whereas
Speaker 2: you can do it as early as you want and
Speaker 2: then just review and review and review every month for
Speaker 2: the next five or six months. We can get a
Speaker 2: change of products up until the mid of the month
Speaker 2: before your rate expires. So if your rate expires in June,
Speaker 2: we can get you know, a change in product up
Speaker 2: to the fifteenth To make.
Speaker 1: Interesting because I've been noticing that deals are taking longer
Speaker 1: and longer to go through than they were even a
Speaker 1: year ago because of Chain's collapse, saying in a very
Speaker 1: sort of olden datish type of way. So if you
Speaker 1: have that length, this is really useful information.
Speaker 2: That's on the purchase side of things, absolutely, you know purchases.
Speaker 2: The whole system and the way it works is somewhat archaic,
Speaker 2: but I don't really see it changing. We used to
Speaker 2: have the you know, the implementation of that Buyer's pack,
Speaker 2: which I thought would actually revolutionize things in a very
Speaker 2: positive way. Scotland manages to get everything sorted out before
Speaker 2: they put their house on the market. Can't really understand
Speaker 2: why England hasn't followed suits. You go to other parts
Speaker 2: of the world twenty eight days from the day you accept.
Speaker 2: After seven days it goes unconditional and away you go.
Speaker 2: So it's just a different way of looking at it.
Speaker 2: But change is something that most people don't like.
Speaker 3: Well, one thing I was going to ask, and I
Speaker 3: think this is something a lot of people will be
Speaker 3: curious about. So obviously the fixtureet has shot up to
Speaker 3: about four and a half four point seven, four point
Speaker 3: eight percent you can still get a tracker THET four
Speaker 3: ish four point one. Are you seeing people asking you
Speaker 3: for trackers? And what's your general teake on that.
Speaker 2: The tracker differentiation? I mean I looked at interest rates
Speaker 2: in preparation for this at sixty percent loan to value.
Speaker 2: For example, the track RADS currently is three point nine six,
Speaker 2: whereas the same product fixed rate is four point four
Speaker 2: to two, So you're looking at nearly half a percent
Speaker 2: difference between the two products. Now that means that you
Speaker 2: could probably take two Bank of England based rate increases
Speaker 2: before you reached the situation where your fixed rate would
Speaker 2: put you. Most of the truckers as well don't seem
Speaker 2: to have early repayment charges applicable to them, so it
Speaker 2: gives you more freedom to be able to make over
Speaker 2: payments refinance at a stage that the market may have improved.
Speaker 2: And it really just comes down to what you as
Speaker 2: an applicant have as a risk appetite. Because we have
Speaker 2: already somewhat priced into Bank of England based rate increases,
Speaker 2: so it is highly likely that by the end of
Speaker 2: this year you will probably be looking at nearly four
Speaker 2: and a half percent on that track rate. However, if
Speaker 2: the rate then turns around and starts going downwards just
Speaker 2: as quickly as it went upwards, then you might very
Speaker 2: well find that product beneficial. If it keeps on going north,
Speaker 2: then that product is not as clever.
Speaker 1: Suddenly everyone has to be an expert on inflation.
Speaker 2: Right, correct. And I think it's being used more by
Speaker 2: people who are expecting some sort of windfall, big bonuses
Speaker 2: in inheritance, some sort of asset payout that they could
Speaker 2: then use that tracker rate and the flexibility that comes
Speaker 2: with it to make it rather large overpayment. Because when
Speaker 2: you're looking at interest rates at st four and a
Speaker 2: half odd percent, to achieve that as a net return
Speaker 2: in the market is a little bit more difficult than
Speaker 2: most people would like. So therefore we're seeing a lot
Speaker 2: more people reduce their outside their mortgage lending because of
Speaker 2: the fact that it's got a guaranteed return if you.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, well the offset mortgage. Are you seeing demand
Speaker 1: for that less?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Less and less popular, mainly because of the fact
Speaker 2: that it costs the lenders so much to administer it.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's the lender who's finding it unattractive, not
Speaker 1: the borrower.
Speaker 2: The borough will generally find it quite attractive if it's
Speaker 2: used correctly. But what we see on our side is
Speaker 2: that offset mortgages are generally around about sort of fifteen
Speaker 2: to seventeen percent more expensive in rate than you'd be
Speaker 2: able to get a standard product for now, that means
Speaker 2: that you have to have that amount of money or
Speaker 2: more in your offset account at all points during your
Speaker 2: mortgage in order to be able to meet what you
Speaker 2: could have got on a standard mortgage. It's only if
Speaker 2: you've got more than that sort of seventeen percent that
Speaker 2: you start to benefit compared to what you would have
Speaker 2: had on a normal mortgage. It works quite nicely for
Speaker 2: people who are capital raising because they are at the
Speaker 2: end of their fixed rates and they want to do
Speaker 2: a massive home renovation and all that money needs to
Speaker 2: set somewhere while they drip it out over time. But
Speaker 2: you know, if you haven't got the right situation for
Speaker 2: the requirement for that, then it isn't a product that
Speaker 2: is as popular as you want as you might think.
Speaker 2: Most people who have that cash available try and pay
Speaker 2: off the mortgage with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so this all seems relatively straightforward. We'd have
Speaker 1: no idea what's going to happen. Next in terms of
Speaker 1: interest rates. So you might as well get a deal
Speaker 1: on the table, whether you are buying for the first
Speaker 1: time or whether you were remortgaging, and just keep reviewing
Speaker 1: it up until the last minute and take it from there.
Speaker 1: But there's no point in sitting around waiting.
Speaker 2: I definitely wouldn't advocate that atrole.
Speaker 1: John, I interpreted you again.
Speaker 3: Sorry, No, this is a really minor point. But one
Speaker 3: thing I have noticed and sort of keeps the current
Speaker 3: to me, is that whenever we used to talk about
Speaker 3: the property market prior to the financial crisis, there was
Speaker 3: basically no such thing as a setup fee other than
Speaker 3: an awful lot of free mortgages. And now you know,
Speaker 3: set up fees are as you say, they see me,
Speaker 3: start about a grand and go as high as two.
Speaker 3: How do you what do you say to people in
Speaker 3: terms of thinking about set up fees? What should you
Speaker 3: be looking out for, What do you need to consider
Speaker 3: in terms of how it actually affects the cost of
Speaker 3: the product.
Speaker 2: The setup fee basically comes down to mathematics. John. You know,
Speaker 2: if the differentiation between a product with a fee and
Speaker 2: one without a fee, multiplied by your loan balance over
Speaker 2: a two, three, or five year period that you take
Speaker 2: the mortgage for generally will always you know, we'd advocate
Speaker 2: the product with the fee if the savings are more
Speaker 2: than the cost of the fee. And as far as
Speaker 2: the fee is concerned, obviously we're talking earlier about, you know,
Speaker 2: the financial impact of applying for a mortgage. We never
Speaker 2: really advocate that a client pays for a pays for
Speaker 2: an arrangement fee upfront, mainly because of the fact that
Speaker 2: if we change lender, you then have to go back
Speaker 2: to them and ask for a refund. And there's a
Speaker 2: little bit luck dealing with HMRC quick to take your money,
Speaker 2: but really slow to get it back. So I would
Speaker 2: say to you that, you know, you add it to
Speaker 2: your mortgage, but each one of the lenders generally has
Speaker 2: an overpayment facility allowed, which is ten percent of the
Speaker 2: outstanding mortgage balance. So if you add the fee, best
Speaker 2: practice would be your first payment goes out, you ring
Speaker 2: the lender up, you make that one thousand pounds cash payments,
Speaker 2: and effectively you won't be incurring any interest on that money,
Speaker 2: but you still be benefiting from the cheaper rate that
Speaker 2: that product gives you. We generally find the magic number
Speaker 2: seems to be around about one hundred and seventy one
Speaker 2: thousand pounds, because at that sort of level of loan size,
Speaker 2: the multiple between the rate difference means that paying the
Speaker 2: fee at thee thousand pounds is either worth it or not.
Speaker 2: Once you go to two hundred three hundred, four hundred
Speaker 2: thousand pounds worth of lending, then generally speaking, the fee
Speaker 2: product is always worth taking.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Okay, that's.
Speaker 2: Just all have on that.
Speaker 1: Okay, last question, last question, I'm going to ask you
Speaker 1: the impossible question away from mortgages. When you look at
Speaker 1: the property market in general, and I know that you
Speaker 1: just said that maybe there are good deals around on
Speaker 1: flats for younger people who maybe first time buyers, etcetera.
Speaker 1: But then there are all those worries about plodding service charges,
Speaker 1: all that kind of thing around the edge, the uncertainty
Speaker 1: about what's going to happen with leaseholds, all these kind
Speaker 1: of things are all that out there as uncertainties. But
Speaker 1: across the market as a whole, how does it look
Speaker 1: to you? And we've seen a lot of real terms,
Speaker 1: quite dramatic declines, particularly in London, did it look to
Speaker 1: you like things are going to pick up? From here,
Speaker 1: or does it look to you from the business you're
Speaker 1: seeing that everything's going to stay a little uncertain for
Speaker 1: a while.
Speaker 2: I think the market is split, in my opinion, into three.
Speaker 2: You've got your super prime London properties which you know,
Speaker 2: very very high values, lots of foreign buyers coming in
Speaker 2: and buying those properties or not, as it might be,
Speaker 2: they've seen a bit of a knock in confidence in
Speaker 2: pricing because of the fact that you know, the government,
Speaker 2: the taxation structures, all the other bits and pieces work
Speaker 2: against them. Then you've got your stock standard UK house
Speaker 2: which you know for a family unit that seems to
Speaker 2: be quite strong and still achieving in most cases it's
Speaker 2: asking price if not over And then you've got your third,
Speaker 2: which is your your flats. Now all those things that
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, you know, the lease hold, the fact
Speaker 2: that your service chargers are you know, quite quite high
Speaker 2: on a lot of these new build properties and the like,
Speaker 2: and the uncertainty as to what's going to happen with
Speaker 2: the lease is leading to those properties being a little
Speaker 2: bit more uncertain and a little bit lower in price
Speaker 2: than we would have seen a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2: And I think that's also coupled with the fact that
Speaker 2: we are seeing so many landlords exiting the market, we've
Speaker 2: just now got an imbalance with an oversupply of properties,
Speaker 2: and that uncertainty is meaning that the demand is not
Speaker 2: there because the interest rates are a little bit higher
Speaker 2: given the Iranian war. If we were still in that
Speaker 2: position where the interest rates were closer to sort of
Speaker 2: three and a half four percent, it might very well
Speaker 2: be a very different conversation that we're having now, because,
Speaker 2: like I was mentioning earlier, on that inflection point where
Speaker 2: rentals and owning, you know, have got to this level
Speaker 2: they kind of equal at this point, whereas you know,
Speaker 2: before the war in February March, it was notably cheaper
Speaker 2: for you to be able to own a property if
Speaker 2: you could, rather than rent it. So I think we
Speaker 2: are going to remain in a situation where flats are
Speaker 2: a little bit less in demand. And I think the
Speaker 2: flip side of that is that from what I noted,
Speaker 2: the builders aren't really building as much as the government
Speaker 2: wanted them to. They had a target of one point
Speaker 2: five million extra homes for the most part, but those
Speaker 2: builders are way under target and actually not pushing forward
Speaker 2: with new developments at the speed that they musk that
Speaker 2: they thought they would have because of all these other issues.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, okay, all right, well a bit optimistic. Not
Speaker 1: that optimistic, John.
Speaker 2: Anything, family houses are going to do very well because
Speaker 2: you know the builders are building flats, they're not building houses.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, John, anything else we should ask before we
Speaker 1: move on?
Speaker 3: Thanks for the thing that will makes perfect sense?
Speaker 1: Okay, brilliant, Thank you, Anthony. I hope that was helpful
Speaker 1: to anyone who's wondering about mortgages. But if you have
Speaker 1: more questions, to write in and let us know. Thank you, John,
Speaker 1: Thank you, Anthony. Thanks for listening this week's Maren Dogs
Speaker 1: Your Money. If you like our show, rate review, and
Speaker 1: subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and'd be sure to
Speaker 1: follow me and John on ex or Twitter. I'm Maren
Speaker 1: s w and John is John Underscore Stepic. This episode
Speaker 1: was produced by Samasadi and Moses and sound designed by
Speaker 1: Aaron Casper. Questions and comments on this show all our
Speaker 1: shows are always welcome. Our show email is merin Money
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net.