WEBVTT - How Awe Transforms Us 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.436 Pushkin. 0:00:30.476 --> 0:00:34.196 Awe is an emotion that you feel when you encounter 0:00:34.316 --> 0:00:37.996 something that is vast or beyond your frame of reference 0:00:38.676 --> 0:00:41.596 that you can't understand with your current knowledge. 0:00:41.996 --> 0:00:45.316 Daker Keltner is a professor of psychology at the University 0:00:45.356 --> 0:00:48.636 of California, Berkeley, and he's an expert on the emotion 0:00:48.876 --> 0:00:51.996 of awe. Maybe you felt awe the first time you 0:00:52.076 --> 0:00:55.316 saw a natural wonder like the Grand Canyon, or when 0:00:55.356 --> 0:00:59.356 your child was born. Whatever the experience, it likely changed 0:00:59.396 --> 0:01:00.796 the way you view the world. 0:01:00.996 --> 0:01:04.516 These momentary experiences of awe, through their shifts, their challenges 0:01:04.516 --> 0:01:06.476 to your belief system, you tend to look at the 0:01:06.476 --> 0:01:10.876 world more carefully. You tend to entertain alternative hypotheses, and 0:01:10.916 --> 0:01:13.836 those are all cognitive strategies that help us be more resilient. 0:01:17.076 --> 0:01:21.276 On today's episode, we explore awe, the science behind it, 0:01:21.436 --> 0:01:23.836 why it matters, and how we can find more of 0:01:23.876 --> 0:01:28.636 it in our everyday lives. I'm Maya Shunker and this 0:01:28.716 --> 0:01:31.396 is a slight change of plans, a show about who 0:01:31.436 --> 0:01:33.636 we are and who we become in the face of 0:01:33.676 --> 0:01:45.916 a big change. Daker Keltner has spent the last twenty 0:01:45.996 --> 0:01:49.916 five years studying the science of emotions. His latest book 0:01:50.036 --> 0:01:53.676 is called AWE, The New Science of Everyday Wonder and 0:01:53.716 --> 0:01:57.396 How It Can Transform Your Life. In it, Daker argues 0:01:57.436 --> 0:02:01.156 that this powerful and mysterious emotion is actually critical to 0:02:01.236 --> 0:02:05.596 our well being. Long before Daker was an academic, he 0:02:05.756 --> 0:02:09.796 was a self described sixties wild child. He and his 0:02:09.836 --> 0:02:13.636 younger brother Rolf were constantly seeking out new adventures. 0:02:13.956 --> 0:02:17.996 My brother and I had these extraordinary early experiences of 0:02:18.156 --> 0:02:21.956 awe every summer since my mom taught at a public university. 0:02:21.996 --> 0:02:25.436 We'd hop into our VW bus and just like drive 0:02:25.556 --> 0:02:27.996 for a month, and we drove into the Rockies one time. 0:02:28.476 --> 0:02:31.396 And you know, I mean this is nineteen sixty eight. 0:02:31.916 --> 0:02:33.836 This was the parenting of the era where we would 0:02:33.876 --> 0:02:36.556 just wander in the wilds and my parents were like, 0:02:36.796 --> 0:02:39.716 see you at dinner when we were seven and nine. 0:02:39.876 --> 0:02:44.036 You know that we just saw extraordinary things. But one 0:02:44.076 --> 0:02:47.476 in particulary members one of our first nights camping, we 0:02:47.476 --> 0:02:50.756 were camping in near the Pacific Ocean, and we just 0:02:50.956 --> 0:02:53.716 slept in the sand and heard the ocean, saw the 0:02:53.716 --> 0:02:57.436 big sky, you know, in these old cotton sleeping bags, 0:02:57.476 --> 0:03:02.276 and just felt like we were bonded together through on 0:03:02.356 --> 0:03:05.996 wonder and it continued all the way till the end 0:03:06.036 --> 0:03:06.596 of his life. 0:03:07.876 --> 0:03:08.836 Tell me more about that. 0:03:09.476 --> 0:03:12.876 Yeah, you know, we just did everything together. And then 0:03:12.916 --> 0:03:16.236 he six years ago started to depart from me, which 0:03:16.276 --> 0:03:20.636 is he got colon cancer and that's a horrific disease 0:03:21.156 --> 0:03:25.956 and it was brutal for two years. And then he 0:03:26.076 --> 0:03:28.676 chose to take a cocktail and end his life because 0:03:28.676 --> 0:03:31.756 he had stage four and knew what was coming. And 0:03:31.836 --> 0:03:33.956 you know, I got a call from his wife, Kim, 0:03:34.236 --> 0:03:36.036 that he had done that, and we all rushed up 0:03:36.036 --> 0:03:38.956 to his home in the foothills of the Sierras. And 0:03:39.516 --> 0:03:41.916 I had been waiting for this. I've been preparing for this. 0:03:42.036 --> 0:03:44.876 I write about how to approach in an open way 0:03:44.916 --> 0:03:48.596 the loss of young people whom you care about. And 0:03:49.396 --> 0:03:53.076 he was lying on the bed and his face was 0:03:53.116 --> 0:03:58.356 turned to the side, and he was smiling this particular 0:03:58.436 --> 0:04:02.596 smile that looked as if he was being called into 0:04:02.636 --> 0:04:07.556 something transcendent. It almost looked a little blissful. And I'm 0:04:07.956 --> 0:04:10.236 a scientist, and I'm like trying to make sense of this. 0:04:10.356 --> 0:04:14.436 I have no religious background, you know, very naive spiritually, 0:04:14.556 --> 0:04:17.636 and I just saw some part of him being pulled 0:04:17.676 --> 0:04:23.556 into other dimensions that I just felt the space was 0:04:23.756 --> 0:04:27.396 vibrating and pulsating, and there was this glow and I 0:04:27.476 --> 0:04:30.116 felt Awe. You know, we were all around him in 0:04:30.156 --> 0:04:33.156 this moment of reverence, and I was like, wow, what 0:04:33.316 --> 0:04:35.636 is life? You know, what is his life? His life 0:04:35.716 --> 0:04:38.196 is my life? What do I make of that? And 0:04:38.276 --> 0:04:43.156 I was incredibly reassured by our science, which is around 0:04:43.196 --> 0:04:47.356 the world contrary to Western assumptions, people find the passage 0:04:47.396 --> 0:04:51.236 of life all inspiring. It's one of the biggest mysteries 0:04:51.276 --> 0:04:55.356 we'll confront And I was awe struck. Then in the grief, 0:04:55.516 --> 0:04:59.076 I descended into you know, a Joan Didion like psychosis. 0:04:59.076 --> 0:05:02.356 I was just like man. I was knocked out of 0:05:02.716 --> 0:05:07.636 my ordinary ways of understanding the world, really struggling. Had 0:05:07.676 --> 0:05:11.276 all these extraordinary experiences of sensing him and hearing his voice, 0:05:11.796 --> 0:05:13.916 and I went in search of Awe. And part of 0:05:13.916 --> 0:05:17.236 that search was to think about our experiences together my 0:05:17.236 --> 0:05:20.556 brother Off and me, write about them, find them again. 0:05:21.156 --> 0:05:23.756 And it taught me that Awe is a mysterious part 0:05:23.756 --> 0:05:24.756 of the happiness equation. 0:05:26.796 --> 0:05:29.556 You know, it seems like you, even as children, you 0:05:29.596 --> 0:05:32.716 stumbled upon AWE before you even recognized what it was. 0:05:33.116 --> 0:05:35.076 That it was an emotion that one can feel. I mean, 0:05:35.156 --> 0:05:39.196 you were blessed with an environment that was so all filled. 0:05:39.236 --> 0:05:42.196 And I do wonder looking back. I mean, we'll get 0:05:42.236 --> 0:05:44.276 into the definition of on a moment, but looking back, 0:05:44.836 --> 0:05:47.476 what is it due to a relationship when you are 0:05:47.596 --> 0:05:51.996 sharing in one of the most profound human emotions one 0:05:52.036 --> 0:05:53.596 can have with another person. 0:05:54.396 --> 0:05:57.876 What an extraordinary question? And I had that's the first 0:05:57.916 --> 0:06:01.316 person to ask me that question. What it does, AWE 0:06:01.396 --> 0:06:06.196 is about dissolving the sense of individual self, the boundaries 0:06:06.236 --> 0:06:10.636 between self and other, and merging you with others in 0:06:10.676 --> 0:06:14.396 almost a spiritual way, like we share a soul or 0:06:15.036 --> 0:06:17.716 a deep sense of meaning in the world, whatever you 0:06:17.716 --> 0:06:20.756 want to call it. And Maya, that's what it did. 0:06:20.836 --> 0:06:24.596 You know. We had all these incredible experiences of the 0:06:24.636 --> 0:06:27.116 wildness of Laurel Canyon in the late sixties and the 0:06:27.156 --> 0:06:30.916 crazy figures there and music and festivals and Martin Luther 0:06:31.036 --> 0:06:34.756 King's death, and what it merged in Ralf and I 0:06:34.876 --> 0:06:37.276 was a shared mind. It's one of the great human 0:06:37.316 --> 0:06:41.476 achievements that we can share a representation of reality with 0:06:41.556 --> 0:06:45.316 other people and all gets you there quickly and time 0:06:45.356 --> 0:06:47.076 and time again. My brother and I would have these 0:06:47.116 --> 0:06:52.436 extraordinary experiences where it was like our minds saw reality together. 0:06:53.196 --> 0:06:53.836 I'm grateful. 0:06:54.636 --> 0:06:57.996 Yeah. I love the framework that you provide around AWE 0:06:58.036 --> 0:07:00.956 because it is really hard to disentangle feelings of AWE 0:07:00.956 --> 0:07:03.556 from other emotions that we feel, like wonder and fear. 0:07:03.716 --> 0:07:07.636 And you talk about two defining characteristics of AWE, So 0:07:07.676 --> 0:07:12.196 one is received vastness and the second is a need 0:07:12.236 --> 0:07:15.396 for accommodation. And I'd really love to flesh out these 0:07:15.396 --> 0:07:18.076 two concepts because I think these will be aids for 0:07:18.076 --> 0:07:20.036 those who are listening to try to figure out, you know, 0:07:20.076 --> 0:07:22.196 how I kind of met the criteria for an awe 0:07:22.236 --> 0:07:27.516 inspiring experience. So let's start with this notion of perceived vastness. 0:07:27.556 --> 0:07:29.116 Can you help us understand what that is? 0:07:29.996 --> 0:07:34.076 Yeah, you know, vastness can be physical, like one time 0:07:34.116 --> 0:07:36.316 I actually met Will Chamberlain. He's seven feet tall. I 0:07:36.316 --> 0:07:38.276 was like, wow, you know that guy's big, you know, 0:07:38.316 --> 0:07:41.316 and I was awestruck. It can be temporal when you 0:07:41.356 --> 0:07:43.716 think about the vastness of time you know that a 0:07:43.796 --> 0:07:47.276 redwood tree lives, for example, And it can be semantic. 0:07:47.356 --> 0:07:50.156 It can be conceptual, like wow, the idea of evolution 0:07:50.436 --> 0:07:52.916 is vast I mean it just accounts for every instant 0:07:52.956 --> 0:07:55.876 of every living form. I think what happens with OZ 0:07:55.956 --> 0:08:02.156 You realize that you are part of larger systems of 0:08:02.236 --> 0:08:05.196 life that you don't ordinarily understand. That I am part 0:08:05.236 --> 0:08:09.076 of a long family history, a cultural history indigenous to 0:08:09.356 --> 0:08:11.716 I'm part of an ecological system, I am a living form, 0:08:11.836 --> 0:08:15.076 I'm a species within an ecosystem, and AWE opens our 0:08:15.116 --> 0:08:20.276 eyes to the very important idea that I, as an individual, 0:08:20.396 --> 0:08:22.636 am embedded in larger systems of meaning. 0:08:24.076 --> 0:08:27.156 And what about the need for accommodation? What does that mean? 0:08:27.876 --> 0:08:29.916 Yeah, you know, that's kind of the mystery component. And 0:08:29.956 --> 0:08:32.076 I like using the word mystery because it just avoids 0:08:32.116 --> 0:08:36.596 that clunkiness of psychological terminology. But you need for accommodation, 0:08:36.676 --> 0:08:37.156 But that's. 0:08:37.556 --> 0:08:44.596 Rolls off the tongue decker, you know. No, I enjoyed 0:08:44.636 --> 0:08:46.636 the scientific paper for what it's the worth. But yes, 0:08:46.676 --> 0:08:48.796 I appreciate the use of the word mystery. 0:08:49.116 --> 0:08:52.796 Thank you you and three other people. So yeah, need 0:08:52.876 --> 0:08:57.796 for accommodation is that you see things, and ordinarily most 0:08:57.836 --> 0:09:00.476 of what we perceive sort of is readily made sense 0:09:00.516 --> 0:09:03.396 of with our knowledge structures for better and for worse. 0:09:03.956 --> 0:09:07.516 And then what happens with AWE is it really transcends 0:09:07.556 --> 0:09:11.116 your current understanding knowledge about the world, and you have 0:09:11.156 --> 0:09:14.676 to accommodate your knowledge structures. And that's where wonder comes in, 0:09:14.716 --> 0:09:18.796 which is wonder is a state that follows AWE. Why 0:09:18.876 --> 0:09:21.116 this big experience of all You know, Newton in de 0:09:21.236 --> 0:09:25.116 Kart were blown away by rainbows and in the following 0:09:25.236 --> 0:09:27.636 state of wonder they did the math and the physics 0:09:27.756 --> 0:09:31.316 color theory to figure them out. So need for accommodation 0:09:31.636 --> 0:09:35.956 is the sort of state as AWE unfold three, you realize, God, 0:09:35.956 --> 0:09:38.076 I got to really update my belief systems. I got 0:09:38.116 --> 0:09:41.036 to change my thinking about what humans can do, or 0:09:41.036 --> 0:09:44.316 what children are like, or the nature of an ecosystem, 0:09:44.756 --> 0:09:48.196 or what music can do emotionally, and so we change 0:09:48.196 --> 0:09:49.476 our knowledge as a result of all. 0:09:49.796 --> 0:09:53.036 Yeah, this is my favorite component of AWE and we'll 0:09:53.036 --> 0:09:54.716 return to it in a bit that I think the 0:09:54.756 --> 0:09:58.556 need for accommodation is. What a powerful force, especially in 0:09:58.596 --> 0:10:02.836 our current society, to force mental agility upon us. Anyway, 0:10:02.876 --> 0:10:04.716 this is really interesting, but I'll save it. I'll save 0:10:04.756 --> 0:10:07.356 it for a little later. I want to establish the basics. 0:10:07.396 --> 0:10:10.876 So I was incredibly excited to learn from your research 0:10:10.916 --> 0:10:13.996 and your scholarship that there are far more sources of 0:10:14.036 --> 0:10:17.516 awe than I'd realized. And based on what you learned, 0:10:17.996 --> 0:10:22.076 you've categorized awe into what you call the eight Wonders 0:10:22.116 --> 0:10:22.596 of life. 0:10:23.276 --> 0:10:26.116 You know what we did, Maya is we gathered twenty 0:10:26.156 --> 0:10:29.596 six hundred stories from people from twenty six cultures ranging 0:10:29.596 --> 0:10:33.156 from India to Mexico to Brazil to Chile to Poland. 0:10:33.316 --> 0:10:36.676 We translated them, a team of us classified them, and 0:10:36.716 --> 0:10:38.996 we came up with what I call the eight wonders, 0:10:39.036 --> 0:10:43.436 which are being out in nature, you know, the big sky, 0:10:43.836 --> 0:10:50.156 the mountains, the Grand Canyon, spiritual stuff, praying, being awestruck 0:10:50.236 --> 0:10:53.436 by the bag of a gita, having a relationship to 0:10:53.516 --> 0:10:57.236 spirit or God, music, something you know, well, you know, 0:10:57.356 --> 0:11:00.396 just being at a concert and Taylor Swift or peeky 0:11:00.436 --> 0:11:07.876 pop or what symphony, visual design, paintings, cars, buildings. I 0:11:07.916 --> 0:11:12.396 love this. One big idea is you know, infinity, big data, AI, 0:11:14.076 --> 0:11:17.876 life and death brings people off, watching people be born, 0:11:17.996 --> 0:11:21.396 watching them go. And then two that really surprise me, 0:11:21.436 --> 0:11:26.636 which are collective effervescence or moving in unison with people, dancing, 0:11:26.956 --> 0:11:30.796 singing in a choir, cheering at a sporting event, chanting 0:11:30.836 --> 0:11:34.196 at a political protest, and then the one that I 0:11:34.356 --> 0:11:38.836 still marvel at, which is moral beauty, which is just 0:11:38.956 --> 0:11:43.196 being moved when you witness people's sacrifice and courage and 0:11:43.636 --> 0:11:47.676 character and overcoming and wisdom, right, just being blown away 0:11:47.716 --> 0:11:49.516 by how good human beings can be. 0:11:50.436 --> 0:11:52.716 You know, those last two you hit on are the 0:11:52.716 --> 0:11:57.116 ones that I absolutely love, moral beauty and collective effervescence, 0:11:57.196 --> 0:12:01.476 because one, I think they're underappreciated sources of awe. Certainly 0:12:01.556 --> 0:12:04.836 I was unfamiliar that moral beauty is a source of awe, 0:12:04.876 --> 0:12:06.636 and I feel like this is the form of awe 0:12:06.636 --> 0:12:09.916 Decker that I feel all the time, more than I 0:12:09.956 --> 0:12:12.396 feel awe when it comes to seeing a beautiful sunset, 0:12:12.596 --> 0:12:15.356 more than any other source of off. Maybe music comes close, actually, 0:12:15.396 --> 0:12:18.236 because I have a very personal relationship with music. But 0:12:18.756 --> 0:12:24.876 the feeling that I get when I witness other people's courage, kindness, resilience, 0:12:25.956 --> 0:12:29.316 I mean, I'm so moved. And maybe it's because I'm 0:12:29.476 --> 0:12:32.036 trained as a cognitive scientist and I'm so fascinated by 0:12:32.116 --> 0:12:36.516 human psychology that when I witness these kinds of acts, 0:12:36.676 --> 0:12:40.036 I feel really transformed by them. And so I loved 0:12:40.636 --> 0:12:44.316 learning that Not only is this a source of awe, 0:12:44.396 --> 0:12:47.356 but it's the most widely felt source of awe. I mean, 0:12:47.596 --> 0:12:51.556 that's also inspiring that when you pull humans, they don't 0:12:51.596 --> 0:12:55.596 say the sunset, they say other people, what other people 0:12:55.636 --> 0:12:57.716 bring to the table. I mean, I find that remarkable 0:12:57.716 --> 0:13:00.956 because all the beauty of all the other source of 0:13:00.956 --> 0:13:03.076 awe is not lost on me, right, But to think 0:13:03.116 --> 0:13:05.396 that that came to the top of the list, I 0:13:05.476 --> 0:13:08.916 find that onspiring. Honestly, I actually. 0:13:08.596 --> 0:13:12.316 Get goose by at your reflection. I was surprised too, 0:13:12.516 --> 0:13:14.876 and I didn't expect moral beauty to be a common 0:13:14.876 --> 0:13:17.236 source of awe. I thought it was all nature and religion, 0:13:17.956 --> 0:13:21.996 and it was this robust and very shared experience in 0:13:22.036 --> 0:13:25.836 these twenty six different countries that you see. It's so 0:13:25.956 --> 0:13:28.396 interesting that we tear up and are ready to do 0:13:28.436 --> 0:13:30.836 good in the world when we see people sacrifice. Yeah, 0:13:31.116 --> 0:13:36.556 that when we see courage somebody overcoming racism writer sexism. 0:13:36.996 --> 0:13:41.076 You have shifts in your physiology of oxytocin release where 0:13:41.116 --> 0:13:44.516 you feel more open to the world. And once you 0:13:44.636 --> 0:13:47.556 wrap your mind around this, the prevalence of moral beauty 0:13:47.556 --> 0:13:49.676 and how it inspires us, then you start to think 0:13:49.716 --> 0:13:53.476 about the people who have changed your life through their 0:13:53.516 --> 0:13:56.076 moral beauty. You know, a teacher or a coach, or 0:13:56.116 --> 0:13:59.276 someone in the streets you think about, how wow, once 0:13:59.276 --> 0:14:01.036 you open your eyes to it, you can walk through 0:14:01.036 --> 0:14:03.476 a city and suddenly you see seventeen acts of moral 0:14:03.516 --> 0:14:08.196 beauty that are holding the society together. So I too, 0:14:08.556 --> 0:14:10.276 like you, my, and I'm grateful you brought it up. 0:14:10.356 --> 0:14:13.916 I feel like we live in this era of toxic politics, 0:14:13.956 --> 0:14:18.916 no commentary there, you know, Instagram comparisons, cynical views of 0:14:18.996 --> 0:14:23.436 human beings, and yet there's so much moral beauty to 0:14:23.516 --> 0:14:24.356 keep us inspired. 0:14:25.516 --> 0:14:27.876 So the other one that you mentioned is this notion 0:14:27.956 --> 0:14:31.796 of collective effervescence. So this is just in the shared, 0:14:32.196 --> 0:14:35.236 sometimes synchronous experiences that we all have, right, singing a 0:14:35.316 --> 0:14:39.076 song together, dancing together for people who have you know, 0:14:39.196 --> 0:14:43.716 religious background, praying together. Right, these are very powerful, poignant experiences. 0:14:44.276 --> 0:14:46.876 And it was so interesting. I was recently talking to 0:14:46.956 --> 0:14:49.716 a coworker of mine and we were talking about Taylor 0:14:49.756 --> 0:14:51.796 Swift concerts, which are of course a huge source of 0:14:51.796 --> 0:14:55.516 off for people worldwide, massive, and the prices of the 0:14:55.516 --> 0:14:57.876 tickets were just so high that I was asking her, 0:14:57.956 --> 0:15:02.196 I was like, how did you psychologically defend paying for 0:15:02.236 --> 0:15:04.636 these tickets because you know, you could, in theory just 0:15:04.636 --> 0:15:06.436 wait for the special to come out and watch it 0:15:06.436 --> 0:15:08.076 that way, or wait for like I don't know, maybe 0:15:08.076 --> 0:15:11.756 they're alternatives. And she said something that was so interesting 0:15:11.796 --> 0:15:14.236 because I was just in the throes of reading your book, Decker, 0:15:14.356 --> 0:15:16.316 and so it's just like the dots connected. She said, 0:15:16.356 --> 0:15:19.316 you know, I would go to a Taylor Swift concert 0:15:19.796 --> 0:15:23.556 even if Taylor wasn't there performing and singing, if it 0:15:23.676 --> 0:15:27.836 was just tens of thousands of people sharing in the 0:15:27.876 --> 0:15:31.476 experience of singing and dancing together to her songs. And 0:15:31.556 --> 0:15:34.676 I thought that was such a beautiful sentiment that that's 0:15:34.716 --> 0:15:36.596 the experience she was going for, that's the one she 0:15:36.636 --> 0:15:40.756 can't approximate by hearing the concert in a Netflix special. 0:15:41.156 --> 0:15:43.276 And so yeah, I just love your thoughts on that. 0:15:43.676 --> 0:15:48.596 Well, you know, collective effervescence is this high level ecstatic 0:15:48.636 --> 0:15:52.316 feeling you have when you are with others and moving 0:15:52.396 --> 0:15:55.796 in unison in a way in which you start to 0:15:55.916 --> 0:16:00.116 share attention about something significant and it has this awe 0:16:00.276 --> 0:16:04.076 feeling of goosebumps and tears and tingly and you're starting 0:16:04.116 --> 0:16:07.236 to merge with others. And what I love about this 0:16:07.356 --> 0:16:12.236 wonder of life is that it reveals the important power 0:16:12.356 --> 0:16:16.196 of things you wouldn't ordinarily consider, like dance, right, Like dancing. 0:16:16.836 --> 0:16:18.996 You know most people, you get them talking about dancing 0:16:19.036 --> 0:16:21.356 at the last wedding, they're out and they're like, that's 0:16:21.396 --> 0:16:23.196 the best time I've had in yours, you know. 0:16:23.596 --> 0:16:24.036 Yeah. 0:16:24.196 --> 0:16:27.836 Or sports. You know, sports are games. You know, they 0:16:27.916 --> 0:16:31.836 are games, and people are just like you said with 0:16:31.876 --> 0:16:35.036 the Taylor Swift example, like games are so meaningful. They 0:16:35.076 --> 0:16:36.796 cry when their teams lose and win. 0:16:36.956 --> 0:16:37.596 Oh totally. 0:16:37.876 --> 0:16:40.556 You know, they feel a sense of common cause with 0:16:40.596 --> 0:16:41.276 other fans. 0:16:41.876 --> 0:16:45.076 And I mean, in this moment, I feel such gratitude 0:16:45.076 --> 0:16:46.916 for our minds, Like it didn't have to be the 0:16:46.956 --> 0:16:50.516 case that we could get so swept up in these experiences. 0:16:50.516 --> 0:16:54.556 Like you said, sports completely manufactured human experience. If you 0:16:54.596 --> 0:16:58.716 think about the cosmic stakes, zero cosmic stakes, Yeah, around 0:16:58.756 --> 0:17:03.196 such team wins and yet and yet right, we feel 0:17:03.316 --> 0:17:06.916 so bonded through these experiences. We feel so bonded by 0:17:07.196 --> 0:17:10.236 hearing music together, dancing together. And you know this speaks 0:17:10.276 --> 0:17:14.276 to a huge component of awe, which is a feeling 0:17:14.316 --> 0:17:17.716 that we are part of a bigger collective. 0:17:18.476 --> 0:17:21.636 Yeah, and I'll quote Malcolm Clemens Young who was a 0:17:21.676 --> 0:17:23.996 minister whom I interviewed for the book, and he just 0:17:24.076 --> 0:17:26.036 I was in conversation with him and he said, you know, 0:17:26.836 --> 0:17:30.876 you can pray or meditate, or contemplate or reflect on 0:17:30.916 --> 0:17:33.436 what life means, but when you do it with other people, 0:17:33.996 --> 0:17:37.836 something changes. And I agree, and that's why your friend 0:17:38.236 --> 0:17:40.276 she's like, all I have to do is be around 0:17:40.316 --> 0:17:42.636 my friends who are fans of Taylor Swift, and I 0:17:42.676 --> 0:17:45.356 get a very big part of the magic, and that's 0:17:45.356 --> 0:17:46.436 collective effiveescence. 0:17:47.076 --> 0:17:49.676 After the break, we'll talk about how all can affect 0:17:49.716 --> 0:17:52.636 our minds and our bodies and how we can become 0:17:52.676 --> 0:17:56.356 more open to all inspiring experiences. We'll be back in 0:17:56.396 --> 0:18:16.276 a moment with a slight change of plans. I've heard 0:18:16.316 --> 0:18:19.956 you say elsewhere that you think the central challenge of 0:18:19.996 --> 0:18:23.156 the mental health crisis today is too much self focus. Yeah, 0:18:23.316 --> 0:18:27.916 and that it seems like AWE helps us stave off narcissism, 0:18:28.036 --> 0:18:30.996 self absorption, self focus. So can you tell me a 0:18:30.996 --> 0:18:34.196 little bit more about that, and also just neuroscientifically, what's 0:18:34.236 --> 0:18:36.316 happening to us in the presence of AWE. 0:18:36.956 --> 0:18:40.796 Yeah, thank you for contextualizing it in our mental health 0:18:40.796 --> 0:18:42.916 crisis of this era. And you know, I mean I've 0:18:42.956 --> 0:18:45.356 taught at a university for thirty years. I've seen twenty 0:18:45.396 --> 0:18:47.156 year olds for thirty years, and there has been this, 0:18:47.876 --> 0:18:50.276 you know, because of cultural values and the rise of 0:18:50.316 --> 0:18:54.196 individualism and the competition and the new technologies, too much 0:18:54.276 --> 0:18:57.196 focus on the self. And AWE is you know, it's 0:18:57.196 --> 0:18:59.596 so interesting when you ask people, tell me about an 0:18:59.636 --> 0:19:03.036 early experience of AWE that you had. Does one come 0:19:03.036 --> 0:19:03.516 to your mind? 0:19:04.516 --> 0:19:08.036 Yeah, one does. So. I was, I mean the younger 0:19:08.076 --> 0:19:10.716 part of my life. I was adding concert violinist. And 0:19:11.756 --> 0:19:15.076 I remember one night in particular, when I was twelve, 0:19:15.196 --> 0:19:17.636 I was at summer music camp and I was lying 0:19:17.676 --> 0:19:20.756 in bed in the dark with my discman back in 0:19:20.796 --> 0:19:24.556 the day when we had CDs, and I was listening 0:19:24.596 --> 0:19:47.956 to a recording of the Beethoven Violin Concerto, and I 0:19:47.996 --> 0:19:51.636 felt it took over my physiology. My heart raced along 0:19:51.636 --> 0:19:54.916 with the melody. I felt shivers down my spine during 0:19:55.116 --> 0:19:59.116 certain phrases. I mean, I was so moved by the 0:19:59.196 --> 0:20:02.756 experience and it was so overwhelming to me. I mean, 0:20:02.756 --> 0:20:06.636 I could not believe that I was having I mean 0:20:06.636 --> 0:20:08.756 as close to a spiritual experience as I've ever had 0:20:09.196 --> 0:20:12.556 someone who's not religious, like you said, spiritually naive. That 0:20:12.676 --> 0:20:14.236 was probably the closest I've ever come. 0:20:24.756 --> 0:20:29.076 What we know neurophysiologically to your question is those experiences 0:20:29.236 --> 0:20:33.876 of awe, even in children, the tears, the goose bumps, 0:20:33.916 --> 0:20:36.556 that gives you the sense of chills, and the activation 0:20:36.596 --> 0:20:39.996 of the vegas nerve is part of this parasympathetic autonomic 0:20:40.036 --> 0:20:42.876 nervous system which opens you up and makes you curious 0:20:42.916 --> 0:20:46.756 about the world. We know neurophysiologically in the brain. All 0:20:46.876 --> 0:20:49.396 leads to the deactivation of the default mode network. 0:20:49.796 --> 0:20:52.116 Do you mind sharing what the default mode network does? 0:20:52.396 --> 0:20:55.356 Yeah, the default mode network does many different things, but 0:20:55.396 --> 0:20:57.036 one of the things that people write about is it's 0:20:57.076 --> 0:21:01.356 about the self, self representation, your goals, your intentions, your 0:21:01.436 --> 0:21:05.236 memories about yourself. So what it tells us is this neurophysiology. 0:21:05.236 --> 0:21:08.316 It's really useful that the dampening of the default mode 0:21:08.316 --> 0:21:13.476 networks the chills, the quiet, the vagus nerve gives you 0:21:13.516 --> 0:21:17.476 the warmth in the chest. Your self is starting to dissolve, 0:21:18.036 --> 0:21:20.076 and then you're becoming open to the world. It's that 0:21:20.276 --> 0:21:23.076 wonder and mystery and need to discover. 0:21:23.596 --> 0:21:25.356 You know what I'm reflecting on in this moment, is 0:21:25.396 --> 0:21:29.716 that awe takes some degree of intentionality. I mean, when 0:21:29.716 --> 0:21:32.156 I reflect back on it, my life as a violinist 0:21:32.356 --> 0:21:35.316 was very complex because it was very stressful as well. 0:21:35.356 --> 0:21:37.596 I mean, I was I was studying at Juilliard from 0:21:37.636 --> 0:21:40.036 the time I was nine. I was on like the 0:21:40.076 --> 0:21:42.036 speed train, you know, I was really trying to go 0:21:42.156 --> 0:21:45.996 pro so many prodigious kids around me. That made me 0:21:46.036 --> 0:21:50.796 feel incredibly insecure. And you can't really have the inspiring 0:21:50.796 --> 0:21:54.436 experience if your mental chatter is sabotaging all the time 0:21:54.476 --> 0:21:57.316 because you're unwilling to appreciate the joy of music because 0:21:57.316 --> 0:21:59.916 you're thinking about Rachel nextdoor, who can like run laps 0:21:59.916 --> 0:22:02.796 around you musically, right, And so I'm just thinking back, 0:22:02.836 --> 0:22:05.396 you know, there were so many moments where I lost 0:22:05.476 --> 0:22:10.076 sight of music's awe inspiring abilities. But it would be 0:22:10.236 --> 0:22:12.716 in these moments where I would have just like an 0:22:12.756 --> 0:22:17.596 experience of hearing music, not my own, just hearing music, 0:22:18.276 --> 0:22:25.156 where I feel like I regained access to the magnificence 0:22:25.196 --> 0:22:28.716 of it. I regain access to this feeling that I'm 0:22:28.716 --> 0:22:31.876 really small and music is really big, and that I was, 0:22:32.076 --> 0:22:34.516 like you said, a part of a collective like it 0:22:34.596 --> 0:22:38.316 dampened that individualistic competitive young maya. I need to win 0:22:38.356 --> 0:22:42.956 every concerto competition, vibe in favor of man. This stuff 0:22:43.036 --> 0:22:45.356 is so beautiful. Yeah, and I can't believe I can 0:22:45.396 --> 0:22:46.676 be part of this experience. 0:22:47.316 --> 0:22:49.956 Yeah. You know your commentary is it will speak to 0:22:50.276 --> 0:22:52.996 the parents out there, and you know, the people who 0:22:52.996 --> 0:22:56.636 have gone through really competitive pressure cook childhood. It's like 0:22:56.676 --> 0:22:59.076 you did of how we've taken so many things. It 0:22:59.116 --> 0:23:03.716 should bring us all music and sports and doing math 0:23:03.916 --> 0:23:07.076 and writing fiction and what have you, and just the 0:23:07.076 --> 0:23:10.916 there's more pressure on young people and we've lost those moments. Yeah, 0:23:10.996 --> 0:23:13.516 that are why we do the thing in the first place. 0:23:13.596 --> 0:23:16.156 It's not the grade per se. And so I hope 0:23:16.156 --> 0:23:18.316 your narrative inspires people out there. 0:23:18.396 --> 0:23:19.996 I hope so too. And it's okay to have a 0:23:20.076 --> 0:23:22.156 dynamic relationship with all. I mean, I think that's what 0:23:22.196 --> 0:23:25.076 I realized is exactly, especially in my teenage years when 0:23:25.076 --> 0:23:27.156 I was filled with angst and I became a much 0:23:27.156 --> 0:23:30.556 more self conscious musician. That was probably when my all 0:23:30.676 --> 0:23:33.076 was muted the most. But then you are able to 0:23:33.116 --> 0:23:33.876 reclaim it. 0:23:34.396 --> 0:23:36.956 And you know what, I really encourage people coming out 0:23:36.996 --> 0:23:39.916 of this conversation is to think about those eight wonders. 0:23:39.956 --> 0:23:42.996 You know, where will you find on music tomorrow or 0:23:43.236 --> 0:23:46.316