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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Awe is an emotion that you feel when you encounter

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Speaker 2: something that is vast or beyond your frame of reference

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Speaker 2: that you can't understand with your current knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Daker Keltner is a professor of psychology at the University

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Speaker 1: of California, Berkeley, and he's an expert on the emotion

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Speaker 1: of awe. Maybe you felt awe the first time you

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Speaker 1: saw a natural wonder like the Grand Canyon, or when

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Speaker 1: your child was born. Whatever the experience, it likely changed

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Speaker 1: the way you view the world.

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Speaker 2: These momentary experiences of awe, through their shifts, their challenges

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Speaker 2: to your belief system, you tend to look at the

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Speaker 2: world more carefully. You tend to entertain alternative hypotheses, and

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Speaker 2: those are all cognitive strategies that help us be more resilient.

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Speaker 1: On today's episode, we explore awe, the science behind it,

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Speaker 1: why it matters, and how we can find more of

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Speaker 1: it in our everyday lives. I'm Maya Shunker and this

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Speaker 1: is a slight change of plans, a show about who

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Speaker 1: we are and who we become in the face of

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Speaker 1: a big change. Daker Keltner has spent the last twenty

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Speaker 1: five years studying the science of emotions. His latest book

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Speaker 1: is called AWE, The New Science of Everyday Wonder and

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Speaker 1: How It Can Transform Your Life. In it, Daker argues

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Speaker 1: that this powerful and mysterious emotion is actually critical to

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Speaker 1: our well being. Long before Daker was an academic, he

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Speaker 1: was a self described sixties wild child. He and his

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Speaker 1: younger brother Rolf were constantly seeking out new adventures.

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Speaker 2: My brother and I had these extraordinary early experiences of

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Speaker 2: awe every summer since my mom taught at a public university.

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Speaker 2: We'd hop into our VW bus and just like drive

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Speaker 2: for a month, and we drove into the Rockies one time.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I mean this is nineteen sixty eight.

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Speaker 2: This was the parenting of the era where we would

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Speaker 2: just wander in the wilds and my parents were like,

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Speaker 2: see you at dinner when we were seven and nine.

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Speaker 2: You know that we just saw extraordinary things. But one

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Speaker 2: in particulary members one of our first nights camping, we

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Speaker 2: were camping in near the Pacific Ocean, and we just

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Speaker 2: slept in the sand and heard the ocean, saw the

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Speaker 2: big sky, you know, in these old cotton sleeping bags,

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Speaker 2: and just felt like we were bonded together through on

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Speaker 2: wonder and it continued all the way till the end

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Speaker 2: of his life.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we just did everything together. And then

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Speaker 2: he six years ago started to depart from me, which

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Speaker 2: is he got colon cancer and that's a horrific disease

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Speaker 2: and it was brutal for two years. And then he

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Speaker 2: chose to take a cocktail and end his life because

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Speaker 2: he had stage four and knew what was coming. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I got a call from his wife, Kim,

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Speaker 2: that he had done that, and we all rushed up

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Speaker 2: to his home in the foothills of the Sierras. And

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Speaker 2: I had been waiting for this. I've been preparing for this.

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Speaker 2: I write about how to approach in an open way

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Speaker 2: the loss of young people whom you care about. And

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Speaker 2: he was lying on the bed and his face was

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Speaker 2: turned to the side, and he was smiling this particular

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Speaker 2: smile that looked as if he was being called into

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Speaker 2: something transcendent. It almost looked a little blissful. And I'm

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Speaker 2: a scientist, and I'm like trying to make sense of this.

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Speaker 2: I have no religious background, you know, very naive spiritually,

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Speaker 2: and I just saw some part of him being pulled

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Speaker 2: into other dimensions that I just felt the space was

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Speaker 2: vibrating and pulsating, and there was this glow and I

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Speaker 2: felt Awe. You know, we were all around him in

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Speaker 2: this moment of reverence, and I was like, wow, what

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Speaker 2: is life? You know, what is his life? His life

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Speaker 2: is my life? What do I make of that? And

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Speaker 2: I was incredibly reassured by our science, which is around

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Speaker 2: the world contrary to Western assumptions, people find the passage

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Speaker 2: of life all inspiring. It's one of the biggest mysteries

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Speaker 2: we'll confront And I was awe struck. Then in the grief,

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Speaker 2: I descended into you know, a Joan Didion like psychosis.

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Speaker 2: I was just like man. I was knocked out of

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Speaker 2: my ordinary ways of understanding the world, really struggling. Had

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Speaker 2: all these extraordinary experiences of sensing him and hearing his voice,

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Speaker 2: and I went in search of Awe. And part of

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Speaker 2: that search was to think about our experiences together my

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Speaker 2: brother Off and me, write about them, find them again.

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Speaker 2: And it taught me that Awe is a mysterious part

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Speaker 2: of the happiness equation.

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Speaker 1: You know, it seems like you, even as children, you

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Speaker 1: stumbled upon AWE before you even recognized what it was.

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Speaker 1: That it was an emotion that one can feel. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you were blessed with an environment that was so all filled.

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Speaker 1: And I do wonder looking back. I mean, we'll get

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Speaker 1: into the definition of on a moment, but looking back,

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Speaker 1: what is it due to a relationship when you are

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Speaker 1: sharing in one of the most profound human emotions one

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Speaker 1: can have with another person.

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Speaker 2: What an extraordinary question? And I had that's the first

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Speaker 2: person to ask me that question. What it does, AWE

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Speaker 2: is about dissolving the sense of individual self, the boundaries

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Speaker 2: between self and other, and merging you with others in

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Speaker 2: almost a spiritual way, like we share a soul or

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Speaker 2: a deep sense of meaning in the world, whatever you

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Speaker 2: want to call it. And Maya, that's what it did.

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Speaker 2: You know. We had all these incredible experiences of the

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Speaker 2: wildness of Laurel Canyon in the late sixties and the

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Speaker 2: crazy figures there and music and festivals and Martin Luther

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Speaker 2: King's death, and what it merged in Ralf and I

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Speaker 2: was a shared mind. It's one of the great human

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Speaker 2: achievements that we can share a representation of reality with

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Speaker 2: other people and all gets you there quickly and time

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Speaker 2: and time again. My brother and I would have these

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Speaker 2: extraordinary experiences where it was like our minds saw reality together.

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Speaker 2: I'm grateful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I love the framework that you provide around AWE

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Speaker 1: because it is really hard to disentangle feelings of AWE

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Speaker 1: from other emotions that we feel, like wonder and fear.

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Speaker 1: And you talk about two defining characteristics of AWE, So

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Speaker 1: one is received vastness and the second is a need

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Speaker 1: for accommodation. And I'd really love to flesh out these

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Speaker 1: two concepts because I think these will be aids for

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Speaker 1: those who are listening to try to figure out, you know,

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Speaker 1: how I kind of met the criteria for an awe

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Speaker 1: inspiring experience. So let's start with this notion of perceived vastness.

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Speaker 1: Can you help us understand what that is?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, vastness can be physical, like one time

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Speaker 2: I actually met Will Chamberlain. He's seven feet tall. I

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Speaker 2: was like, wow, you know that guy's big, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I was awestruck. It can be temporal when you

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Speaker 2: think about the vastness of time you know that a

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Speaker 2: redwood tree lives, for example, And it can be semantic.

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Speaker 2: It can be conceptual, like wow, the idea of evolution

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Speaker 2: is vast I mean it just accounts for every instant

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Speaker 2: of every living form. I think what happens with OZ

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Speaker 2: You realize that you are part of larger systems of

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Speaker 2: life that you don't ordinarily understand. That I am part

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Speaker 2: of a long family history, a cultural history indigenous to

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Speaker 2: I'm part of an ecological system, I am a living form,

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Speaker 2: I'm a species within an ecosystem, and AWE opens our

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Speaker 2: eyes to the very important idea that I, as an individual,

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Speaker 2: am embedded in larger systems of meaning.

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Speaker 1: And what about the need for accommodation? What does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's kind of the mystery component. And

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Speaker 2: I like using the word mystery because it just avoids

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Speaker 2: that clunkiness of psychological terminology. But you need for accommodation,

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Speaker 2: But that's.

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Speaker 1: Rolls off the tongue decker, you know. No, I enjoyed

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Speaker 1: the scientific paper for what it's the worth. But yes,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate the use of the word mystery.

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Speaker 2: Thank you you and three other people. So yeah, need

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Speaker 2: for accommodation is that you see things, and ordinarily most

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Speaker 2: of what we perceive sort of is readily made sense

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Speaker 2: of with our knowledge structures for better and for worse.

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Speaker 2: And then what happens with AWE is it really transcends

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Speaker 2: your current understanding knowledge about the world, and you have

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Speaker 2: to accommodate your knowledge structures. And that's where wonder comes in,

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Speaker 2: which is wonder is a state that follows AWE. Why

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Speaker 2: this big experience of all You know, Newton in de

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Speaker 2: Kart were blown away by rainbows and in the following

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Speaker 2: state of wonder they did the math and the physics

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Speaker 2: color theory to figure them out. So need for accommodation

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Speaker 2: is the sort of state as AWE unfold three, you realize, God,

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Speaker 2: I got to really update my belief systems. I got

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Speaker 2: to change my thinking about what humans can do, or

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Speaker 2: what children are like, or the nature of an ecosystem,

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Speaker 2: or what music can do emotionally, and so we change

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Speaker 2: our knowledge as a result of all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is my favorite component of AWE and we'll

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Speaker 1: return to it in a bit that I think the

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Speaker 1: need for accommodation is. What a powerful force, especially in

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Speaker 1: our current society, to force mental agility upon us. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: this is really interesting, but I'll save it. I'll save

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Speaker 1: it for a little later. I want to establish the basics.

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Speaker 1: So I was incredibly excited to learn from your research

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Speaker 1: and your scholarship that there are far more sources of

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Speaker 1: awe than I'd realized. And based on what you learned,

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Speaker 1: you've categorized awe into what you call the eight Wonders

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Speaker 1: of life.

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Speaker 2: You know what we did, Maya is we gathered twenty

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Speaker 2: six hundred stories from people from twenty six cultures ranging

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Speaker 2: from India to Mexico to Brazil to Chile to Poland.

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Speaker 2: We translated them, a team of us classified them, and

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Speaker 2: we came up with what I call the eight wonders,

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Speaker 2: which are being out in nature, you know, the big sky,

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Speaker 2: the mountains, the Grand Canyon, spiritual stuff, praying, being awestruck

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Speaker 2: by the bag of a gita, having a relationship to

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Speaker 2: spirit or God, music, something you know, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: just being at a concert and Taylor Swift or peeky

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Speaker 2: pop or what symphony, visual design, paintings, cars, buildings. I

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Speaker 2: love this. One big idea is you know, infinity, big data, AI,

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Speaker 2: life and death brings people off, watching people be born,

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Speaker 2: watching them go. And then two that really surprise me,

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Speaker 2: which are collective effervescence or moving in unison with people, dancing,

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Speaker 2: singing in a choir, cheering at a sporting event, chanting

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Speaker 2: at a political protest, and then the one that I

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Speaker 2: still marvel at, which is moral beauty, which is just

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Speaker 2: being moved when you witness people's sacrifice and courage and

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Speaker 2: character and overcoming and wisdom, right, just being blown away

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Speaker 2: by how good human beings can be.

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Speaker 1: You know, those last two you hit on are the

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Speaker 1: ones that I absolutely love, moral beauty and collective effervescence,

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Speaker 1: because one, I think they're underappreciated sources of awe. Certainly

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Speaker 1: I was unfamiliar that moral beauty is a source of awe,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like this is the form of awe

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Speaker 1: Decker that I feel all the time, more than I

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Speaker 1: feel awe when it comes to seeing a beautiful sunset,

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Speaker 1: more than any other source of off. Maybe music comes close, actually,

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Speaker 1: because I have a very personal relationship with music. But

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Speaker 1: the feeling that I get when I witness other people's courage, kindness, resilience,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm so moved. And maybe it's because I'm

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Speaker 1: trained as a cognitive scientist and I'm so fascinated by

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Speaker 1: human psychology that when I witness these kinds of acts,

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Speaker 1: I feel really transformed by them. And so I loved

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Speaker 1: learning that Not only is this a source of awe,

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Speaker 1: but it's the most widely felt source of awe. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's also inspiring that when you pull humans, they don't

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Speaker 1: say the sunset, they say other people, what other people

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Speaker 1: bring to the table. I mean, I find that remarkable

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Speaker 1: because all the beauty of all the other source of

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Speaker 1: awe is not lost on me, right, But to think

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Speaker 1: that that came to the top of the list, I

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Speaker 1: find that onspiring. Honestly, I actually.

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Speaker 2: Get goose by at your reflection. I was surprised too,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't expect moral beauty to be a common

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Speaker 2: source of awe. I thought it was all nature and religion,

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Speaker 2: and it was this robust and very shared experience in

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Speaker 2: these twenty six different countries that you see. It's so

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Speaker 2: interesting that we tear up and are ready to do

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Speaker 2: good in the world when we see people sacrifice. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that when we see courage somebody overcoming racism writer sexism.

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Speaker 2: You have shifts in your physiology of oxytocin release where

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Speaker 2: you feel more open to the world. And once you

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Speaker 2: wrap your mind around this, the prevalence of moral beauty

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Speaker 2: and how it inspires us, then you start to think

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Speaker 2: about the people who have changed your life through their

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Speaker 2: moral beauty. You know, a teacher or a coach, or

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Speaker 2: someone in the streets you think about, how wow, once

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Speaker 2: you open your eyes to it, you can walk through

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Speaker 2: a city and suddenly you see seventeen acts of moral

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Speaker 2: beauty that are holding the society together. So I too,

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Speaker 2: like you, my, and I'm grateful you brought it up.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we live in this era of toxic politics,

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Speaker 2: no commentary there, you know, Instagram comparisons, cynical views of

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Speaker 2: human beings, and yet there's so much moral beauty to

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Speaker 2: keep us inspired.

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Speaker 1: So the other one that you mentioned is this notion

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Speaker 1: of collective effervescence. So this is just in the shared,

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Speaker 1: sometimes synchronous experiences that we all have, right, singing a

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Speaker 1: song together, dancing together for people who have you know,

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Speaker 1: religious background, praying together. Right, these are very powerful, poignant experiences.

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Speaker 1: And it was so interesting. I was recently talking to

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Speaker 1: a coworker of mine and we were talking about Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift concerts, which are of course a huge source of

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Speaker 1: off for people worldwide, massive, and the prices of the

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Speaker 1: tickets were just so high that I was asking her,

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Speaker 1: I was like, how did you psychologically defend paying for

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Speaker 1: these tickets because you know, you could, in theory just

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Speaker 1: wait for the special to come out and watch it

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Speaker 1: that way, or wait for like I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 1: they're alternatives. And she said something that was so interesting

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Speaker 1: because I was just in the throes of reading your book, Decker,

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Speaker 1: and so it's just like the dots connected. She said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I would go to a Taylor Swift concert

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Speaker 1: even if Taylor wasn't there performing and singing, if it

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Speaker 1: was just tens of thousands of people sharing in the

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Speaker 1: experience of singing and dancing together to her songs. And

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Speaker 1: I thought that was such a beautiful sentiment that that's

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Speaker 1: the experience she was going for, that's the one she

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Speaker 1: can't approximate by hearing the concert in a Netflix special.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, I just love your thoughts on that.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, collective effervescence is this high level ecstatic

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Speaker 2: feeling you have when you are with others and moving

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Speaker 2: in unison in a way in which you start to

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Speaker 2: share attention about something significant and it has this awe

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Speaker 2: feeling of goosebumps and tears and tingly and you're starting

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Speaker 2: to merge with others. And what I love about this

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Speaker 2: wonder of life is that it reveals the important power

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Speaker 2: of things you wouldn't ordinarily consider, like dance, right, Like dancing.

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Speaker 2: You know most people, you get them talking about dancing

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Speaker 2: at the last wedding, they're out and they're like, that's

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Speaker 2: the best time I've had in yours, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Or sports. You know, sports are games. You know, they

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Speaker 2: are games, and people are just like you said with

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Speaker 2: the Taylor Swift example, like games are so meaningful. They

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Speaker 2: cry when their teams lose and win.

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Speaker 1: Oh totally.

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Speaker 2: You know, they feel a sense of common cause with

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Speaker 2: other fans.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, in this moment, I feel such gratitude

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Speaker 1: for our minds, Like it didn't have to be the

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Speaker 1: case that we could get so swept up in these experiences.

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Speaker 1: Like you said, sports completely manufactured human experience. If you

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Speaker 1: think about the cosmic stakes, zero cosmic stakes, Yeah, around

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Speaker 1: such team wins and yet and yet right, we feel

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Speaker 1: so bonded through these experiences. We feel so bonded by

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Speaker 1: hearing music together, dancing together. And you know this speaks

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Speaker 1: to a huge component of awe, which is a feeling

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Speaker 1: that we are part of a bigger collective.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll quote Malcolm Clemens Young who was a

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Speaker 2: minister whom I interviewed for the book, and he just

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Speaker 2: I was in conversation with him and he said, you know,

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Speaker 2: you can pray or meditate, or contemplate or reflect on

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Speaker 2: what life means, but when you do it with other people,

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Speaker 2: something changes. And I agree, and that's why your friend

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Speaker 2: she's like, all I have to do is be around

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Speaker 2: my friends who are fans of Taylor Swift, and I

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Speaker 2: get a very big part of the magic, and that's

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Speaker 2: collective effiveescence.

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Speaker 1: After the break, we'll talk about how all can affect

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Speaker 1: our minds and our bodies and how we can become

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Speaker 1: more open to all inspiring experiences. We'll be back in

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Speaker 1: a moment with a slight change of plans. I've heard

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Speaker 1: you say elsewhere that you think the central challenge of

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Speaker 1: the mental health crisis today is too much self focus. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that it seems like AWE helps us stave off narcissism,

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Speaker 1: self absorption, self focus. So can you tell me a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about that, and also just neuroscientifically, what's

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Speaker 1: happening to us in the presence of AWE.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for contextualizing it in our mental health

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Speaker 2: crisis of this era. And you know, I mean I've

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Speaker 2: taught at a university for thirty years. I've seen twenty

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Speaker 2: year olds for thirty years, and there has been this,

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Speaker 2: you know, because of cultural values and the rise of

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Speaker 2: individualism and the competition and the new technologies, too much

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Speaker 2: focus on the self. And AWE is you know, it's

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Speaker 2: so interesting when you ask people, tell me about an

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Speaker 2: early experience of AWE that you had. Does one come

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Speaker 2: to your mind?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one does. So. I was, I mean the younger

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Speaker 1: part of my life. I was adding concert violinist. And

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Speaker 1: I remember one night in particular, when I was twelve,

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Speaker 1: I was at summer music camp and I was lying

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Speaker 1: in bed in the dark with my discman back in

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Speaker 1: the day when we had CDs, and I was listening

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Speaker 1: to a recording of the Beethoven Violin Concerto, and I

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Speaker 1: felt it took over my physiology. My heart raced along

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Speaker 1: with the melody. I felt shivers down my spine during

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Speaker 1: certain phrases. I mean, I was so moved by the

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Speaker 1: experience and it was so overwhelming to me. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I could not believe that I was having I mean

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Speaker 1: as close to a spiritual experience as I've ever had

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Speaker 1: someone who's not religious, like you said, spiritually naive. That

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Speaker 1: was probably the closest I've ever come.

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Speaker 2: What we know neurophysiologically to your question is those experiences

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Speaker 2: of awe, even in children, the tears, the goose bumps,

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Speaker 2: that gives you the sense of chills, and the activation

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Speaker 2: of the vegas nerve is part of this parasympathetic autonomic

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Speaker 2: nervous system which opens you up and makes you curious

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Speaker 2: about the world. We know neurophysiologically in the brain. All

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Speaker 2: leads to the deactivation of the default mode network.

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Speaker 1: Do you mind sharing what the default mode network does?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the default mode network does many different things, but

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Speaker 2: one of the things that people write about is it's

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Speaker 2: about the self, self representation, your goals, your intentions, your

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Speaker 2: memories about yourself. So what it tells us is this neurophysiology.

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Speaker 2: It's really useful that the dampening of the default mode

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Speaker 2: networks the chills, the quiet, the vagus nerve gives you

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Speaker 2: the warmth in the chest. Your self is starting to dissolve,

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Speaker 2: and then you're becoming open to the world. It's that

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Speaker 2: wonder and mystery and need to discover.

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Speaker 1: You know what I'm reflecting on in this moment, is

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Speaker 1: that awe takes some degree of intentionality. I mean, when

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Speaker 1: I reflect back on it, my life as a violinist

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Speaker 1: was very complex because it was very stressful as well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was I was studying at Juilliard from

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Speaker 1: the time I was nine. I was on like the

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Speaker 1: speed train, you know, I was really trying to go

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Speaker 1: pro so many prodigious kids around me. That made me

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Speaker 1: feel incredibly insecure. And you can't really have the inspiring

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Speaker 1: experience if your mental chatter is sabotaging all the time

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Speaker 1: because you're unwilling to appreciate the joy of music because

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about Rachel nextdoor, who can like run laps

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Speaker 1: around you musically, right, And so I'm just thinking back,

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Speaker 1: you know, there were so many moments where I lost

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Speaker 1: sight of music's awe inspiring abilities. But it would be

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Speaker 1: in these moments where I would have just like an

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Speaker 1: experience of hearing music, not my own, just hearing music,

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Speaker 1: where I feel like I regained access to the magnificence

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Speaker 1: of it. I regain access to this feeling that I'm

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Speaker 1: really small and music is really big, and that I was,

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Speaker 1: like you said, a part of a collective like it

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Speaker 1: dampened that individualistic competitive young maya. I need to win

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Speaker 1: every concerto competition, vibe in favor of man. This stuff

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Speaker 1: is so beautiful. Yeah, and I can't believe I can

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Speaker 1: be part of this experience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You know your commentary is it will speak to

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Speaker 2: the parents out there, and you know, the people who

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Speaker 2: have gone through really competitive pressure cook childhood. It's like

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Speaker 2: you did of how we've taken so many things. It

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Speaker 2: should bring us all music and sports and doing math

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Speaker 2: and writing fiction and what have you, and just the

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Speaker 2: there's more pressure on young people and we've lost those moments. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that are why we do the thing in the first place.

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Speaker 2: It's not the grade per se. And so I hope

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Speaker 2: your narrative inspires people out there.

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Speaker 1: I hope so too. And it's okay to have a

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Speaker 1: dynamic relationship with all. I mean, I think that's what

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Speaker 1: I realized is exactly, especially in my teenage years when

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Speaker 1: I was filled with angst and I became a much

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Speaker 1: more self conscious musician. That was probably when my all

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Speaker 1: was muted the most. But then you are able to

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Speaker 1: reclaim it.

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Speaker 2: And you know what, I really encourage people coming out

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Speaker 2: of this conversation is to think about those eight wonders.

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Speaker 2: You know, where will you find on music tomorrow or

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Speaker 2: visual design or out looking at the moral beauty of people?

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Speaker 2: You know, one simple thing that we tested is you

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Speaker 2: know a lot of people walk. They do it for

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Speaker 2: the health benefits, but why not add some all?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Right, why not put down your devices, open up your

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Speaker 2: mind a little, go somewhere mysterious, and then just look

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Speaker 2: for large and small patterns out there in the natural world,

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Speaker 2: the urban world. You can do it with music and

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Speaker 2: it ironically, even though people think that AWE is mysterious

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Speaker 2: and impossible to produce, it's something we can find pretty

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Speaker 2: easily if we just shift out of this modern pressurized mindset.

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Speaker 1: Yep, I love to dig in to the impact all

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Speaker 1: has on our psychology. So do you mind sharing a

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Speaker 1: study or two about the impacts of awe? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You know, maya. We started to compile these findings that

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Speaker 2: little moments of AWE make you more generous, you share

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Speaker 2: with strangers, you have a better inflammation profile, You are

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Speaker 2: more creative, you polarize politics less, you see more common

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Speaker 2: ground in ideological adversaries. And I always start, you know,

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Speaker 2: I have taught happiness twenty five years at Berkeley and elsewhere,

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Speaker 2: and just was like, wow, man, this is powerful, this

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Speaker 2: emotion is good for us. And then we got to

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Speaker 2: do a very unusual experiment, which is we took veterans

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Speaker 2: and under resourced teenagers out rafting on the American River

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Speaker 2: where my brother and I used to raft as kids,

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Speaker 2: and so it had this deep personal resonance to me.

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Speaker 2: And you know, when you raft, it's all you see

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Speaker 2: the currents of the river and the beauty of the water,

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Speaker 2: and you almost are thrown out of the raft. You're

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Speaker 2: thrown out of the raft. It's wild. People are hooting

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Speaker 2: and hollering. And what we found is that half day

433
00:25:30,396 --> 00:25:36,476
Speaker 2: experience for veterans and teenagers living in hard places, going

434
00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:41,156
Speaker 2: to tough schools, really tough under resource schools, dropping PTSD

435
00:25:41,236 --> 00:25:45,556
Speaker 2: symptoms for veterans, Oh wow, yeah, I mean to get

436
00:25:45,596 --> 00:25:48,756
Speaker 2: a week of relief from a rafting trip of that

437
00:25:48,956 --> 00:25:52,196
Speaker 2: scales is really striking. And then for the teenagers, they

438
00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:54,156
Speaker 2: were getting along better with their parents, they felt like

439
00:25:54,156 --> 00:25:57,796
Speaker 2: they had community, they were feeling less stressed and greater

440
00:25:57,876 --> 00:25:58,476
Speaker 2: well being.

441
00:25:59,156 --> 00:26:01,436
Speaker 1: So there's going to be a surge in a sign

442
00:26:01,516 --> 00:26:03,916
Speaker 1: ups for rafting trips among parents nationwide.

443
00:26:04,196 --> 00:26:06,596
Speaker 2: Absolutely and rightfully so Dacker.

444
00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:09,636
Speaker 1: Helped my teenager be nicer to me. That's what they're

445
00:26:09,676 --> 00:26:11,116
Speaker 1: all going to be saying to you. That's great.

446
00:26:11,596 --> 00:26:15,156
Speaker 2: And you know, that's why I'm really excited about AWE

447
00:26:15,156 --> 00:26:18,036
Speaker 2: making its way into the manial health offerings, all being

448
00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:21,516
Speaker 2: part of recovery from a surgery, you know, all being

449
00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:26,916
Speaker 2: an approach to grief for cancers. We are just publishing

450
00:26:26,956 --> 00:26:30,476
Speaker 2: a paper where we have an AWE training program that

451
00:26:30,516 --> 00:26:35,636
Speaker 2: we delivered to health care providers during the pandemic, and

452
00:26:35,756 --> 00:26:38,316
Speaker 2: just a minute of AWE a day led to greater

453
00:26:38,396 --> 00:26:41,916
Speaker 2: well being, less stress, and greater physical robustness for health

454
00:26:41,956 --> 00:26:45,276
Speaker 2: care providers. So good news for microdosis of all.

455
00:26:45,756 --> 00:26:47,836
Speaker 1: You know, I have this hypothesis I love to run

456
00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:51,756
Speaker 1: by you, which is that because when we experience AWE,

457
00:26:51,796 --> 00:26:55,396
Speaker 1: we find ourselves updating our view on something. I do

458
00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:59,916
Speaker 1: wonder if there's any spillover effects whether opening our minds

459
00:26:59,996 --> 00:27:05,276
Speaker 1: up more generally helps us become more adaptable in other ways,

460
00:27:05,316 --> 00:27:07,676
Speaker 1: that it actually makes us more resilient in the face

461
00:27:07,716 --> 00:27:08,436
Speaker 1: of change.

462
00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:12,676
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, people who feel AWE they handle stresses better,

463
00:27:12,716 --> 00:27:15,476
Speaker 2: they handle traumas better. They just can look at the

464
00:27:15,796 --> 00:27:20,116
Speaker 2: problem from any different angles, and that's beneficial. Those are

465
00:27:20,156 --> 00:27:22,716
Speaker 2: all cognitive strategies that help us be more resilient.

466
00:27:23,236 --> 00:27:27,196
Speaker 1: And there is research showing that the what we'll call

467
00:27:27,316 --> 00:27:31,836
Speaker 1: like agility of mind, that that transcends the specific area

468
00:27:32,036 --> 00:27:33,836
Speaker 1: that was induced by the awe. Is that right?

469
00:27:34,396 --> 00:27:38,116
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's so important. You may feel awe as

470
00:27:38,156 --> 00:27:42,276
Speaker 2: the result of music or beautiful nature imagery, and it

471
00:27:42,316 --> 00:27:46,676
Speaker 2: produces these more general emotional and cognitive states, the cognitive

472
00:27:46,676 --> 00:27:50,556
Speaker 2: state being I am aware of multiple perspectives. I'm looking

473
00:27:50,556 --> 00:27:53,436
Speaker 2: at evidence really hard. I'm thinking a more sophisticated way

474
00:27:53,476 --> 00:27:57,876
Speaker 2: about systems around me that allows for resilience in your

475
00:27:57,876 --> 00:28:00,756
Speaker 2: own personal life or in parenting or what have you.

476
00:28:00,836 --> 00:28:04,636
Speaker 2: So they are broad effects with lots of skill over

477
00:28:04,876 --> 00:28:05,636
Speaker 2: in good ways.

478
00:28:06,036 --> 00:28:08,316
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, I know your research looks at

479
00:28:08,356 --> 00:28:12,276
Speaker 1: the role of of cognitive closure, so our desire to

480
00:28:12,396 --> 00:28:15,356
Speaker 1: find a rive at definitive answers and conclusions for things.

481
00:28:15,396 --> 00:28:18,196
Speaker 1: And it seems like as humans we fall on this continuum.

482
00:28:18,236 --> 00:28:20,876
Speaker 1: Like some people have a deep need for cognitive closure

483
00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:24,796
Speaker 1: cough cough me, And then there are people who are

484
00:28:24,956 --> 00:28:27,916
Speaker 1: much more like free wheeling, open to mystery, open to

485
00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:28,676
Speaker 1: not having answers.

486
00:28:28,836 --> 00:28:29,836
Speaker 2: Yeah, spot on.

487
00:28:30,196 --> 00:28:33,476
Speaker 1: Okay, So now please tell me and help me, my

488
00:28:33,556 --> 00:28:37,196
Speaker 1: dear friend, Acker, is it possible for me to become

489
00:28:37,676 --> 00:28:40,356
Speaker 1: a slightly more open person, to cultivate a state of

490
00:28:40,396 --> 00:28:43,196
Speaker 1: mind where I am more open to mystery, more open

491
00:28:43,196 --> 00:28:44,036
Speaker 1: to uncertainty?

492
00:28:44,876 --> 00:28:48,876
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, of course, But how you know a

493
00:28:48,916 --> 00:28:53,036
Speaker 2: couple of pathways to think about one is really cultivating

494
00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:56,036
Speaker 2: an AWE practice if you will, like, make it part

495
00:28:56,076 --> 00:28:59,276
Speaker 2: of your regular If you're a meditator, you love gratitude

496
00:28:59,316 --> 00:29:03,316
Speaker 2: exercises or service work, Okay, make AWE part of your practice.

497
00:29:03,356 --> 00:29:06,716
Speaker 2: And we do know AWE opens your mind and your neurophysiology.

498
00:29:06,756 --> 00:29:10,956
Speaker 2: I might add, to be able to entertain more mysteries

499
00:29:10,996 --> 00:29:14,996
Speaker 2: and more uncertainty. You know, we haven't talked about psychedelics

500
00:29:15,076 --> 00:29:18,636
Speaker 2: or spirit medicines, but they too are sources of AWE,

501
00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:22,636
Speaker 2: widely used by twenty thirty million Americans, and they make

502
00:29:22,716 --> 00:29:27,436
Speaker 2: you more tolerant of uncertainty and more open to the

503
00:29:27,516 --> 00:29:29,836
Speaker 2: fact that most of the great questions in life can't

504
00:29:29,836 --> 00:29:33,956
Speaker 2: be answered definitively. So if you're not born wildly open

505
00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:36,996
Speaker 2: to experience, you can cultivate it. But go in search

506
00:29:37,036 --> 00:29:39,356
Speaker 2: of AWE through these eight wonders and see where your

507
00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:39,916
Speaker 2: mind goes.

508
00:29:40,116 --> 00:29:43,236
Speaker 1: Sorry laughing right now, because I'm realizing that my lack

509
00:29:43,276 --> 00:29:45,436
Speaker 1: of openness is also going to prevent me from doing

510
00:29:45,436 --> 00:29:48,596
Speaker 1: a psychedelic trip because I'm too scared of having a

511
00:29:48,636 --> 00:29:51,196
Speaker 1: bad experience. Yeah. So I can't even know. But what

512
00:29:51,236 --> 00:29:54,036
Speaker 1: I do like a very promising message from what you

513
00:29:54,076 --> 00:29:56,676
Speaker 1: just shared with me is it seems like there's a

514
00:29:56,756 --> 00:30:00,236
Speaker 1: virtuous cycle here. So the more you invite AWE, the

515
00:30:00,236 --> 00:30:02,236
Speaker 1: more open you might become to it. And so I

516
00:30:02,316 --> 00:30:04,156
Speaker 1: really like that. That's something I can hold on to.

517
00:30:04,316 --> 00:30:07,596
Speaker 1: And I mean even my very conservative, scaredy cat nature

518
00:30:08,436 --> 00:30:09,076
Speaker 1: can embrace.

519
00:30:09,556 --> 00:30:12,436
Speaker 2: So that's great, our virtuous cycles that you will benefit from.

520
00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:13,436
Speaker 1: My I love that.

521
00:30:13,596 --> 00:30:15,636
Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know in the book, I had this

522
00:30:15,716 --> 00:30:19,236
Speaker 2: really interesting experience where, unlike you, I don't know a

523
00:30:19,236 --> 00:30:21,636
Speaker 2: lot about music, but like most people, I love it.

524
00:30:21,636 --> 00:30:24,796
Speaker 2: It changed my life. And I interviewed a cellist, Jumy Kendall.

525
00:30:25,076 --> 00:30:26,316
Speaker 1: I loved that part of the book.

526
00:30:26,916 --> 00:30:29,956
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she was playing a piece by John Adams,

527
00:30:29,956 --> 00:30:32,876
Speaker 2: this great modern composer whom I like. But the piece

528
00:30:33,036 --> 00:30:36,436
Speaker 2: was really challenging for me. I didn't get it, but

529
00:30:36,556 --> 00:30:39,036
Speaker 2: there were moments in it that opened up my life,

530
00:30:39,516 --> 00:30:43,516
Speaker 2: and so even if it feels unnatural, once the awe arises,

531
00:30:43,676 --> 00:31:09,276
Speaker 2: it leads to this broadening of your mind to understand mystery.

532
00:31:17,636 --> 00:31:20,476
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my

533
00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:23,836
Speaker 1: conversation with Dhaker, you might enjoy our episode with author

534
00:31:23,876 --> 00:31:28,076
Speaker 1: Michael Pollin called how Psychedelics Can Change Our Minds. We'll

535
00:31:28,076 --> 00:31:30,956
Speaker 1: link to that episode in the show notes and enjoin

536
00:31:31,036 --> 00:31:33,716
Speaker 1: me next week. When I talked to world renowned violinist

537
00:31:33,956 --> 00:31:37,316
Speaker 1: min Kim All is what initially drew her to a

538
00:31:37,356 --> 00:31:40,796
Speaker 1: career in music, and after she endured a tragic loss,

539
00:31:40,996 --> 00:31:44,116
Speaker 1: it's what helped bring her back to life. That's next

540
00:31:44,116 --> 00:31:56,396
Speaker 1: time on A Slight Change of Plans. A Slight Change

541
00:31:56,436 --> 00:31:59,476
Speaker 1: of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me

542
00:31:59,676 --> 00:32:04,036
Speaker 1: Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green,

543
00:32:04,516 --> 00:32:09,196
Speaker 1: our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our sound engineer Andrew Vesto,

544
00:32:09,716 --> 00:32:13,796
Speaker 1: and our producer Tricia Bobita. Louis Scara wrote our delightful

545
00:32:13,836 --> 00:32:17,916
Speaker 1: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. Special

546
00:32:17,956 --> 00:32:20,476
Speaker 1: thanks to Stefan Jaquie for letting us play a bit

547
00:32:20,476 --> 00:32:24,716
Speaker 1: of his beautiful performance. Of Beethoven's Violin Concerto in this episode.

548
00:32:25,196 --> 00:32:27,956
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industry,

549
00:32:28,076 --> 00:32:31,396
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a

550
00:32:31,636 --> 00:32:34,556
Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A

551
00:32:34,596 --> 00:32:37,756
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker.

552
00:32:38,516 --> 00:32:39,316
Speaker 1: See you next week