1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I got an unusual 2 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: term for you. Some of you may not have heard 3 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: it if you've never lived near a large body of water, 4 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: particularly down a long coast. It's called rip wrap. It's defined. 5 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 1: It's like a collection of rock and concrete that's kind 6 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: of cracked up. It forms the banks of waterways. It's 7 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: something that's man made that's put in place to prevent 8 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: erosion and kind of delineates the shoreline of an area 9 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: that otherwise might give way to the forces of nature. 10 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: And it holds things. When you go, say, for instance, 11 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: beneath the bridge in these areas, you'll see rip rap. 12 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: It's not pleasant to stand on. Can't really fish from it, 13 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: I guess you could, but it's very uneven, and when 14 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: the tide goes out you can see more of it. 15 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: You can see what's there lying beneath what otherwise might 16 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: be covered with water. It collects all manner of things, 17 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: dead animals, vegetation, trash that's been discarded. But on a 18 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: day in the blazing sun of the Florida Panhandle, a 19 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: worker descended down into that uneven space that rip wrap, 20 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: and there at his feet, less suitcase, and within that 21 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: suitcase where the remains of Gannon Stock. We've already talked 22 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: about Gannon before on body Bags, but today we've got 23 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: more information and I wanted to provide an update because 24 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: at this moment in time as I speak, his stepmother 25 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: is on trial for his murder. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 26 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: and this is Body Bags. Joining me today is my buddy, 27 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: Dave Mack, senior crime reporter with Crime Online, Nancy Grace. Dave, 28 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: I didn't know that we would make it to this day. 29 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: It seems like this trial has been off in the horizon, 30 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: never seemed like it would get here. I guess it's 31 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: that way with most big cases. But I'd say that 32 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: you certainly are invested in this case. I know that 33 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 1: you've been covering it for some time. 34 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: January twenty seventh of twenty twenty, Joe, you mentioned this 35 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: case has already been covered on Body Bags, and I 36 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 2: encourage you to go and listen to that show because 37 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: there are things in there that will help round out 38 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: your understanding of what happened. But we now have information 39 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: that we didn't have until now, and so Joe, I 40 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: got to be honest to get through this story without 41 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: crying is going to require more than I have. Because 42 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 2: this little eleven year old boy was left in the 43 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 2: care of his stepmother. You know, his dad, Al served 44 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 2: in the National Guard. Al left January twenty fifth of 45 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: twenty twenty on assignment. He was leaving and so he 46 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: heads out of town two days later. Letitia, by the way, 47 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: she is pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, so 48 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 2: we can say she killed him, right. 49 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: It seems reasonable. Of course, everybody's innocent until proven guilty. 50 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: But her supposition, in her defense team supposition, is that 51 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: she's not to be held responsible for this. And let's 52 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: just put it plainly, the brutal And when I say brutal, 53 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: it ranks up there, Dave, I have to admit, after 54 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: what we found out, the brutal homicide of this precious 55 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: little boy Gannon. 56 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: When we started covering this, it was a missing person case. 57 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 2: You've got to remember January twenty seventh, he's reported missing, Okay. 58 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: Letitia was his stepmother. She told El Paso County Sheriff's 59 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: office that he left home between three point fifteen and 60 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: four pm local time to walk to a friend's house 61 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: in Colorado Springs. Joe you and I both have kids. 62 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: Is there ever a time where you knew your child 63 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: left the house to go somewhere else and you didn't 64 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: know exactly what time it was within two or three minutes. 65 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something that you always keep track of. 66 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: At forty five minute window, that was the first red flag. 67 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, particularly you know you're talking about you're talking about 68 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: a little boy. 69 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: There were a couple of different stories that Letitia told. 70 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: It took three days to change the classification to hey, 71 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: he left to go to a friend's house. Then they 72 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: on January thirties at missing in dangered person and of 73 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 2: course we know what took place after that. His body 74 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: was found. Now, Joe, there are two months here, from 75 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: January twenty seventh to March twentieth when his body was 76 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: recovered in that suitcase. And as you mentioned, the trial 77 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: is ongoing. We found out a number of things this week, 78 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: including the suitcase that was the body bag for this child. 79 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: It was brought into court. Okay, you've got an eleven 80 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: year old child that has been dead and I'm kind 81 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: of assuming dead since January twenty seventh. They don't find 82 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 2: his body in the suitcase until March twentieth, in Florida. 83 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, in Florida. That's the big thing. Remember, this whole 84 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: thing starts in Colorado, where his body was found, though 85 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: it was not on I ten, which is the major 86 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: east west thoroughfare in the interstate system. And for those 87 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: that don't know with interstates, if you have an interstate 88 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: that ends in a zero, those are east west, all right. 89 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: So we've got I ten, which is our most southerly 90 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: major interstate that runs east and west, and it runs 91 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: through the Panhandle. Anybody that's ever traveled from west of Florida, 92 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: that's that's heading in. If you're going to places like 93 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: Panama City Beach or Destined or even headed to Jacksonville, 94 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: you're going to be on Ien. And so off of 95 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: Ien on either side north and south there are little 96 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: parallel routes that run. And where Gannon's body was found 97 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: was actually in a tributary that eventually dumps into the 98 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: Gulf of Mexico. And I think that's key here when 99 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: you begin to think about body disposal. It's an absolute 100 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: stroke of luck. Is the only way I can say 101 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: that he was even found. This is a vast area, Dave. 102 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: If we take that idea that you're placing Gannon's body 103 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: that is contained within the suitcase into a body of 104 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: water that you know is heading north and south southwhard 105 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: the final destination is going to be the Gulf of Mexico. 106 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: The fact that it got hung up on rocks on 107 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: rip rap, as I mentioned earlier, and I urge if 108 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: you're not familiar with what rip rapp looks like, just 109 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: go take a look. It's such an odd, odd term anyway, 110 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: but go take a look and you'll see what I'm saying. 111 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: It's got it's kind of play into You have to 112 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: place it in there with big machinery. I know. The 113 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: first time I ever heard the term was actually an 114 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: association with Lake Poncha Train when I was living down 115 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: there and they took old two lane Stadium which was demolished. 116 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,679 Speaker 1: It's actually where they used to play the old Sugar Bowl, 117 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: and they took it and demolished it and they created 118 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: rip rap out of it. It created these kind of 119 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: sea walls. It extended out into Lake ponch Train in 120 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: New Orleans and you could walk out and you could 121 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: actually see the seat number still painted on the rip 122 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: rap and that's as big chunks of concrete or kind 123 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: of deciduous rock. They gather up and they can place 124 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: and create these these boundaries, if you will, or wall 125 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: sometimes and so it's kind of jagged. That's the only 126 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: saving grace here that that kind of captured Gannon's body 127 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: vis via the rip rap and him being contained in 128 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: the suitcase, and you're talking two months downrange from the 129 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: last time he was seen. It makes it very difficult 130 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: from what we've talked about a lot on body bags, 131 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: which is postmarim interval, because the environment down in that 132 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: area of the country is so harsh. It is I 133 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: can't begin to describe it. If you've never worked as 134 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: a crime scene investigator, or as an emmy investigator or 135 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: a homicide investigator. Down those areas, things break down very, 136 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: very carefully. The only reason that Gannon's remains would have 137 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: remained intact is because of this encasement that he was 138 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: in contained within this suitcase. So he's literally sealed up 139 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: in it his remains. And I have to say, based 140 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: upon what we learn from direct testimony from the medical 141 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: examiner that examined Gannon's remains, I'm amazed she was able 142 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: to ascertain what she was able to ascertain. It is 143 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: absolutely miraculous. That's the only way I can say it. 144 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: You've got this one in a million shot that you're 145 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: going to have somebody come along and find the suitcase, 146 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: and then secondly that it would be preserved to the 147 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: extent that it was preserved, that you've got a forensic 148 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: pathologist that can interpret all that was left behind. 149 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: When you back up to where this began in Colorado 150 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: Springs to Colorado and Gannon is murdered and placed in 151 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 2: the suitcase. As an investigator, as somebody who does these 152 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 2: crime scenes, Joe, her story was that he was walking 153 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: to a friend's house. And granted there are five different 154 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 2: stories that she told, five different stories about what took place. 155 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 2: As investigators, as you come in to start looking over 156 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: a crime scene or potential crime scene, how do you 157 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 2: find blood if it's been cleaned up. How if somebody 158 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: is killed and there's blood everywhere, how did they actually 159 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: find it if it's been cleaned up. 160 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: First off, you have to have a suspected area. You're 161 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: not just going to go through through what you believe 162 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: to be a potential crime scene and just randomly apply 163 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: these reagents to try to get the remnant of the 164 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: blood to luminous, that's what it's referred to. It has 165 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: a luminescent quality with luminol in particular. First off, you 166 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: have to be almost in total darkness in order to 167 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: appreciate it. And then once you apply the luminol, it 168 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: only lasts for a few seconds. So it's a matter 169 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: of application, and it's a matter of somebody being quick 170 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: with a camera, and it's a perfect perfect environment in 171 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: order to actualize that and to visualize it, and then 172 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 1: to capture it to document it, because what you're trying 173 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: to document, first off, is not just that there may 174 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: have been blood there, but you're also trying to interpret 175 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: the dynamics of the blood. You know, is this a 176 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: dynamic deposition of blood in the area where it is 177 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: sprayed or cast off in this environment, or is it 178 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: something that's passively dripping, like off of the end of 179 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: some type of weapon that you would bludge in somebody 180 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: with if you're standing over the body, or maybe a 181 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: knife that you're holding in your hand that you know, 182 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: you just have blood just kind of passively dripping off 183 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: the tip as you're standing over that area. So a 184 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: lot of stuff has to come together in order to 185 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: try to understand it. It's it's fascinating we're having this 186 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: conversation because I was given a lecture in my medical 187 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 1: legal death Investigation class at Jacksonville State the other day 188 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: on the topic of death related to abuse and neglect, 189 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: and I was trying to emphasize to the class that 190 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,599 Speaker 1: it's important that you go even if there's not a 191 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: body of the scene, and many times with children there's not. 192 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: They go into the hospital. You go to the hospital 193 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: to obviously examine the body there and get the report 194 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: from the empts and the positions, but you need to 195 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: go back out to the scene and one of the 196 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: things that we find, it seems many times, particularly with kids. 197 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: I was relating to the class that I'd gone out 198 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: on two scenes that I could remember over the course 199 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: of my career where you walk in and the room 200 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: smells like pine saw and pine sal is very distinctive. 201 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: It fills the air. It's very aromatic, and not necessarily 202 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: in a good way. I remember it. I remember it 203 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: from the barracks in the Army. The Army had an 204 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: unending supply of pine saw. So you have that smell 205 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 1: and you think, well, does the environment normally smell like 206 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 1: pine sal in here. Well, that's another thing you're looking for. 207 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: You're looking to go into these homes and many times 208 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: or locations and you think, well, you know what, there's 209 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 1: a heavy smell of bleach. People think that bleach is 210 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: the answer to everything, and of course bleach is not 211 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: necessarily going to defeat any kind of stains that are 212 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: left behind. So that's just one of the things that 213 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: we look for. You know, it seems, whether it's in 214 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: a dwelling where the people are domicile, or a vehicle 215 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: for instance, you try to get a sense in that 216 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: environment what is left behind, What exactly is the evidence 217 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: trying to tell you, even at a molecular level, that 218 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: has been left behind, of what kind of violence may 219 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: or may not have occurred in this location. Sometimes when 220 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: you're walking through unknown territory, places you haven't been before, 221 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: you need a guide. And in my world in forensics, 222 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: one of the best guides you can have when it 223 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: comes to death investigation is a forensic pathologist. And of course, 224 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 1: in my opinion, I've been around for you in my career. 225 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: The one that I saw provide testimony out in Colorado 226 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: rinks right up there. What a fantastic job she did. 227 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 2: There are so many questions I have for you that 228 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people wonder because we're so 229 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: conditioned to what takes place on TV and in movies. 230 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 2: We know, based on the investigation and the trial, that 231 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: this crime scene was in Gannon's bedroom in the house. 232 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: When police come in, When investigators come into a story 233 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 2: where they're told the boy ran away or he went 234 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: missing or whatever, police have red flags and they immediately know, Okay, 235 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: we have to go down this path because this is 236 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: the story she's telling today and we have to investigate it. 237 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: But aren't they going to immediately start looking around at 238 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: the house and see what is a miss? They know 239 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: the house has been cleaned because her story, she had 240 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: originally told them she had been raped by a man 241 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 2: in the home and that he had absconded with Gannon. 242 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 2: At what point do the investigators start looking for blood 243 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 2: evidence or any kind of evidence inside the home because 244 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: they know that her story is not sticky, it's not 245 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: standing up to any kind of scrutiny. 246 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: The main indicator here is what locations do Most people 247 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: inhabit within a home, and I think default from a 248 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: default perspective, if you're talking about kids, you're going to 249 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: go to their bedrooms. You're going to want to know 250 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: is there anything that looks amiss? Because you're going to 251 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: spend most of your time in the bedroom. It's a 252 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: place that you're most familiar with kids. That's where they 253 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: have their toys or gaming systems, or clothes, just their 254 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: school books. Everything that kind of revolves around their little 255 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: world is contained therein So odds are they would spend 256 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: quite a bit of time there, and you're going to 257 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: look and if there's some kind of indicator when you 258 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: walk in, Like let's just say, for instance, you're doing 259 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: a walk through at a scene and you're going from 260 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: room to room. You know, you go from one room, 261 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: maybe the family room, and it looks neat and ordered, 262 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: But then maybe you go to Gannon's room and it's 263 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: like really really neat. It's like really really clean. As 264 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, maybe there's an odor there of cleanser. Okay, 265 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: maybe maybe the bed. I don't know about you. When 266 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: I was eleven years old, I wasn't really good at 267 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: making a bed. But you look at his bed, maybe 268 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: maybe it looks like you can bounce a quarter off 269 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: of it. All right, is this something that eleven year 270 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: old boy would have done. Is everything neatly put away, 271 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: neatly folded. I'm not saying that mom wouldn't go in 272 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: behind you and do all that stuff for you. However, 273 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: odds are that if something appears to be too good 274 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: to be true, it probably is. So to your original question, yeah, 275 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: the investigators are going to fold over into that and 276 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,719 Speaker 1: really begin to dig down into this area, particularly if 277 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: they have a search horant. Just so folks understand, if 278 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: you have a search warrant, you have to name in 279 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: that search warrant where you're going to search, even if 280 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: it's within the residence. You can't just randomly, really nearly 281 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: rip somebody's house apart. You have to be able to 282 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,719 Speaker 1: describe this to a judge. It has to be specifically 283 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: laid out in the search warrant. And you say we're 284 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: going to search Gannon's bedroom, you know, we're going to 285 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 1: go through the all the associated articles within there, including 286 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: the closets. But you're not going to do that throughout 287 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: the entire house, all right, So there has to be 288 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: something that's going to lead you there, and most of 289 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: the time that's going to arise from a couple of 290 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: places either from an initial walkthrough, when this call comes 291 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: out and he's missing, well that compels the police to 292 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: go to the house to do just a welfare check. 293 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: You got a missing kids, so we're going to walk 294 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: to the house. Maybe initially the cops walked through and 295 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: they said, wow, this really smells really like it's been 296 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: freshly cleaned in here. Well, that gives you. That gives 297 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: you cause at that point in time to include that 298 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: in the warrant. We really want to focus your honor 299 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: on this specific area of the house. And so there 300 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: might be specific areas where you think something may have happened, 301 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: but you can't prove it. You need to dig deeper, 302 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: and that's going to require search warrant. So you go 303 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: back and then then once you have that search warrant, 304 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: you go in and you begin to do things like 305 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: pull up carpet, you begin to flip mattresses, check and 306 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: see if the walls have been freshly painted. I've had 307 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: that happen before. You apply reagents like like something like 308 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: luminol or blue star or those types of reagents to 309 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: see if you can make any kind of presentation where 310 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: you think that blood may have been. And that's going 311 00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: to be a big indicator for you. 312 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: Now, we do know based on the affidavit, there was 313 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,719 Speaker 2: a lot of evidence in Gannon's bedroom, the blood spatter 314 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 2: on the walls. There was enough blood in that child's 315 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 2: bedroom to soak through the mattress, soak through the carpet, 316 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: the carpet pad, and stained the concrete below his bed. 317 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: I have to wonder what condition his body was in. 318 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 2: We've got a body that's not found for two months. 319 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: We've got a body of an eleven year old that 320 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: was in a suitcase that was in Florida in the water. 321 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: What would you expect to find. 322 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: This is an interesting point with this case, David. I'll 323 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: tell you why. This pathologist though Gannon's remains were Let's 324 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: face it, they're severely decomposed, all right, But she came 325 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: armed with that information that you were just talking about, 326 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: even though she's down in Florida, and they they come 327 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: to the conclusion pretty quickly that it is Gannon's remains. 328 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: I would imagine if they weren't on a plane, they 329 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: were certainly on the phone. Police officers, investigators out in 330 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: Colorado are speaking, all right, they're speaking to the investigators 331 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: in Florida. They're speaking to the m's office down in Florida, 332 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 1: and what they're telling him is like, look, we've got 333 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: a scene up here that looks like, holy hell, we 334 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: know that there's going to be there was a significant 335 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: blood letting within this environment. Can you imagine when doctor 336 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: Ignacio opened that suitcase there at the mme's office and 337 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: she's observing the mortal remains of this little little boy. 338 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: She had no idea who he was, but she sees 339 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: all of this trauma. She's trying to figure this out 340 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: and trying to kind of work out the calculus in 341 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: her brain essentially as to how all this went down. 342 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: She's having to look at this and say, God, wherever 343 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: he was, there has to have been a tremendous amount 344 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: of blood. Well, guess what. She's already seemingly got an 345 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: answer to this question. And that's a huge step for 346 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: you from a medical legal standpoint, because there's stuff that 347 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: you now you can kind of connect the dots, whereas 348 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: many times you might be at a disadvantage. And the 349 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: fact that he still had soft tissue, because you know 350 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: she's going in to describe injuries here, well, it's hard 351 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: to describe injuries when you don't have soft tissue if 352 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: you're just dealing with skeletal remains. So we know that 353 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: there was a significant amount of soft tissue left behind 354 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: so that she could make this interpretation. When you're looking 355 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: back and you begin to understand how much blood was 356 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: in that residence at that location, it's coming into focus 357 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: at that moment in time. Okay, well this explains this 358 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: at the scene, this presentation that they're seeing. Maybe you've 359 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: got blunt force trauma, which he did, you've got a 360 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: gunshot wound which he had, got sharp force injury which 361 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: he possessed many of that's going to explain some of 362 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: the dynamics at the scene that will perhaps create some 363 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: kind of correlation between what you're seeing when these decomposed 364 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: remains and what you're finding it the scene. And the 365 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: fact that this doctor caught this case is fascinating to me. 366 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: And I don't know, it's kind of an odd ball 367 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: situation because you've got a case that originates in Colorado 368 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: and winds up being discovered down in Florida. And I 369 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: think many people would question, well, why didn't they just 370 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: take his body back to Colorado to do the example? 371 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: First off, if it is a homicide. 372 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: How do you not I rule out a homicide an 373 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 2: eleven year old is dead inside of a suitcase found 374 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 2: at the water's edge. 375 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: Well, we can't assume anything because we live in a 376 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 1: world inhabited by attorneys and we have to be very, 377 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: very thorough and so the the question is not is 378 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: it a homicide? The question is more where did the 379 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: homicide take place? First off, you have to establish the identification. 380 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: That's one of the hallmarks in medical legal death investigation. 381 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: There's three principles that we work upon, and that's determining 382 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: manner of death, cause of death, and identification. And you 383 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: learn so much about a deceased individual when you figure 384 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: out who they are, because suddenly history comes pouring in 385 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: at that moment time. You can begin to track them 386 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: back from where they were and where they wound up 387 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: and all in, what the family dynamic is like, what 388 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: their life was like, simply based on an identification. So 389 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: you have to establish that. And if you remove him 390 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: from that state to take him back to Colorado in 391 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: order to do the autopsy, there's always that question, is 392 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: this Florida jurisdiction or is it Colorado jurisdiction? Well, it's 393 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: kind of a shared jurisdiction, if you will. We know 394 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: that the body was deposited in Florida. There's a huge 395 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: difference between the deposition of a body and where that 396 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: body met its end by law. So I think that 397 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: the working idea here to keep everybody on the same 398 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: sheet of music is you don't want to destroy evidence, 399 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: and certainly that could happen because this is very, very fragile, Dave, 400 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: very fragile. We've already talked about how long Gannon had 401 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: been down The fact that they decided to do the 402 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: autopsy there in that particular district is indicative of how 403 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: much care they were taking. People in Colorado were like, hey, look, 404 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: we're good with this. You go ahead and do the 405 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: autopsy down there. And I think a lot of people 406 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: get confused over this, particularly when you've got these multi 407 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: jurisdictional kinds of things, because people don't understand how the 408 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: system works. And back to what I was saying about 409 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: doctor Ignatio when she did this autopsy, do you know 410 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: that she was actually covering for this district? Florida doesn't 411 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: have corners, they have district medical examiners, so you've got 412 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: like District seven and District eight nine and all those 413 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: sorts of things. The state is broken down into multi 414 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: county jurisdictions, and she happened to be working in an 415 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: adjacent district and there's not that many forensic pathologists, so 416 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: they cover for one another. So she was taking call 417 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: for that jurisdiction or covering this cases why. I don't know, 418 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: maybe one pathologist was testifying, or they were taking some 419 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: time off, which they need because there's so many cases 420 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: and there's so few of them. 421 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: So it was just happenstance that she ended up getting this. 422 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something? And now she's in a different 423 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: district in Florida than she originally was, so she's kind 424 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: of moved around within the state, which happens. She's licensed 425 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: in the state of Florida. She I think she did 426 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: her fellowship in forensics actually down in Miami Dade, which 427 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: is a fantastic medical Examiner's office for training, and so 428 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: she's very familiar with this area and so that's why 429 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: her her testimony gave so much weight. But you know, 430 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: you've got this forensic pathologist that has to travel from 431 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: Florida to Colorado to offer up testimony because they've come 432 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: to the conclusion based upon their scientific assessment that the 433 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: amount of blood that they found at that residence is 434 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: what we refer to as incompatible with life. That means 435 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: that so much blood was lost that there is a 436 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: high probability that that homicide took place there. And she 437 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: was seeing the final results of this. And another skill 438 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: set that she has that say, for instance, people out 439 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: in Colorado that maybe they've exclusively worked there. She's familiar 440 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 1: with this tropical environment, Dave. She's very familiar with saltwater environment. 441 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: Think about her training. All of these cases that she 442 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: works down there, they're subject to the environment that is 443 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: dictated by what is Florida the rated decomposition. It measures 444 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: out differently than say, for instance, in Colorado. Those are 445 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: two very distinct geographical location. So she's the best person 446 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: to kind of interpret. And this is most important, I 447 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: think when we're trying to establish a timeline, how long 448 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: hagain and actually been deceased, and how long had you 449 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: been in that suitcase. Because we have people that do 450 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: this job that stare down at all that remains even 451 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: in the worst circumstances, we can kind of begin to 452 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: formulate an idea. The question is once that idea is formulated. 453 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: Are you capable as a forensic practitioner of expressing that 454 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: in a courtroom to get that point across to a jury? 455 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: Can you lay that out in layman's terms? And that's 456 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: what happened in this courtroom in Colorado with this forensic 457 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: pathologist Dave. 458 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: Before you go to a peer in a trial where 459 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 2: you're trying to tell the story of the victim, do 460 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 2: you try to keep your emotions in check or do 461 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: you allow that human side of things so the jury 462 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 2: knows you're not just teaching a course on this, but 463 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 2: actually being emotional and enough to make them realize this 464 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 2: is an eleven year old boy we're talking about. This 465 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 2: is not a two hundred year old skeleton we found 466 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 2: in the desert. This is a child who should be 467 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 2: playing baseball right now. How do you do that as 468 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 2: a as a forensic person? 469 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, as a forensics person, I think I couldn't do it. Now. 470 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: I couldn't. I'd openly weep. There's no way. But I 471 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: remember the man that I was all those years ago 472 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: when I would have to give testimony about what I 473 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: was finding. It seems you do your best to remain 474 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: as clinical as you possibly can and let the jury 475 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: draw their conclusions. And here's the thing. You need to 476 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: remain as clinical as you possibly can before the jury 477 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: because if you openly start to weep on the stand 478 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: over the death of a child like and trust me, Dave, 479 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: if anybody, if any child that has ever walked this 480 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: earth deserves to have tears shed over his life, and 481 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: the loss of life is gannon all right, But you 482 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: cannot allow that to come through because that can be 483 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: viewed as prejudicial. So you have to fight this fight. 484 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: It's tough, I mean, it really is. So thank you 485 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: for asking me that question, because it's one of those 486 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: things that it just it punches you right in the face, 487 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: particularly when you're reflective about it, after you've walked out 488 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: of the courtroom, you've gotten off the stand, and you 489 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: realize what you've just been discussing. There are those moments, 490 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: and I have to believe that the forends of pathologist 491 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: in this case did that. I watched her testimony and 492 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: she was very stalwart when her descriptors, you know, didn't 493 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: emote a bunch of sadness and all those sorts of things. 494 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: There's only so much sadness that you you know that 495 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: you can respond to in your own life. And trust me, 496 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: this pathologist has seen her share. I mean she's worked 497 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: everywhere all over Florida. She's seen some really bad cases, 498 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: and she did. I think that to remain clinical. People 499 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: view that as cold. On the contrary, I view it 500 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: as doing your best job that you can for Cannon, Okay, 501 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: because there has to be somebody that's willing to face 502 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: the mails from and describe what they saw that that 503 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: would make weaker people fold, you know, under understand what 504 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: she's what she's describing to everybody here in very clinical. 505 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 2: Right. Well, we've known about some of the wounds, Okay, 506 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 2: we knew about eighteen apparent stab wounds. We knew about 507 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 2: a gunshot wound to the lower left jaw, we knew 508 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 2: about cuts on the hands and arms consistent with defensive wounds. 509 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 2: But to actually share that's just the outline. Because I'm 510 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 2: trying to figure out as a layperson, I need to 511 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 2: understand what these actually mean, what the actual impact of 512 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 2: these were, because coming into it dry, I'm thinking, Okay, 513 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 2: she drugged him with Laura said he was lethargic, he's 514 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 2: laying in bed, she cuts him, she kills him and 515 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: then she puts him in the suitcase and there we go. 516 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 2: That is not what happened at all. 517 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: No, it's not. However, I will say that they found 518 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: hydro codone and a set of menifin in his system. 519 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: Of course it couldn't. You know, you can't at this 520 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: point relative to decomposition, You can't place a number to 521 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: it to say that he had been odeed in some 522 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: way or that he was even in a state where 523 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: he lacked awareness. I think that just by looking at 524 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: what the forensic pathologist has interpreted as defensive injuries gives 525 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: you an idea that he did not lack awareness. He 526 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: knew what was going on. There's part of you, I 527 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: think that you wish that he hadn't okay, but that's 528 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: evidenced in the fact that he had some kind of 529 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: response to pain because of his hands. He had multiple 530 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: cuts on the surfaces of his hands and his fingers. 531 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: You know, those images were just when they displayed those 532 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: in court, it was quite striking and you could still 533 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: This is the fascinating thing about the status of his 534 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: remains is that they were still appreciable day that like 535 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: if you're in the jury and you've never been exposed 536 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: to a severely decomposed body. You can look at that 537 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: image and say, oh, that's a hand, you know, that's 538 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: definitely a hand, and what she's describing you can actually 539 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: see the injuries, and then when she gets into it, 540 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: you understand form and function at that point in time. 541 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: Of the incredible things about this Now, I think people 542 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: would say, well, Morgan, if you if you can't quantify 543 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: the number relative to the level of these drugs that 544 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: were in a system, how do you arrive at the 545 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: conclusion that they were even there anyway? Well, there's not 546 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: going to be any there's not going to be any 547 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: blood to test from a toxicological standpoint in the sense 548 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: of how we would normally test it. And one of 549 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: the things that some folks might not be aware of 550 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: that when we have a severely decomposed body, there's a 551 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: couple of ways that we test for any kind of 552 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: substances there. Go to deliver and to the kidneys. Now 553 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: they will be decomposed, obviously, but there will still be 554 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: enough of a remnant there that you can cut a 555 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: section of liver, place it into a tube a centrifuge, 556 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: if you will. People have seen a centrifuge. It spins around, 557 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: and it spins around to the point where it liquifies 558 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: solid wor like liver, and spins it down and liquifies it. 559 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,959 Speaker 1: You draw it up and then when you draw it up, 560 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: you can actually test it, and you can test it 561 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: for the presence of any number of different substances that 562 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: are contained in the system. Another thing that we do 563 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: with decomposing bodies, we can actually take maggots from a body, 564 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: and remember the maggots have been present with the body, 565 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: have been digesting the body. You can collect those and 566 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: spin those down as well. In certain cases you can 567 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: find remnant of opiate. You can also find cocaine in 568 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: maggots as well after you spin them down in liquify them, 569 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: which I've always found just absolutely fascinated. 570 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 2: That's unbelievable. I didn't have any idea you could do that. 571 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it isn't that something. And so you have to 572 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: bring every tool that you have to bear here. And 573 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: the fact that he had medication on board goes into 574 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: this narrative. Why are you applying a substance like a 575 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: hydro codone, which is you just a painkiller? How much 576 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: were you giving this child he's only eleven years old, 577 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: and as we know, it can make you loopy. As 578 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, people die from it, die from 579 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:11,879 Speaker 1: overdoses all the time. 580 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 2: Oddly enough, the actual medication, the hydro codone, was prescribed 581 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 2: to his father, Al Al had a finger injury and 582 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 2: he had been given this hydro coda and a set 583 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 2: of minifit as a pain reliever. He didn't take all 584 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,919 Speaker 2: of it, and the medication was in his nightstand drawer, 585 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 2: and it was the location and what was in it 586 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 2: was only known to Al and Letitia. Nobody else knew 587 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 2: what was in there or where it was, so she 588 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 2: knew where it was. They actually brought that up and 589 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 2: actually gave it to Gannon in some way. 590 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: But obviously that was not sufficient to the task because 591 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: what doctor Gnacio wound up determining is that and just 592 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: featured this just for a second, this child actually sustained 593 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: eighteen stab ones. Just let that sink in. Eighteen plus. 594 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: He was shot. You know, you talked about this gsw 595 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: that he's got. I think it was through the left 596 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 1: jaw that was, you know, the coup de gras, if 597 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: you will. And he's got blunt force trauma that has 598 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: resulted in lacerations. Remember we've talked about on body backs before. 599 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: There's a difference between the laceration and sharp force injuries. 600 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: Lacerations arise from blunt force trauma. So you know, you 601 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: can be beaten, you can be kicked, you can be 602 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: bludgeoned with something you know, like a heavy object, and 603 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: that's going to result in these lacerations which don't have 604 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: clean margins. They've got this kind of connective tissue that 605 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: we call tissue bridging that are left behind when you 606 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: have a stab wound. That means that you're talking about 607 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: like a milled edge that creates these margins that are 608 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: very distinctive. Okay, here's the tough thing though, Dave, when 609 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,919 Speaker 1: you begin to think about how compromised the body would 610 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: be due to decomposition, one of the obstacles that you 611 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: really have to overcome is the interpretation of these wounds. 612 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: Once an area of human remain has been insulted in 613 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: some way, whether it's a gunshot wound, stab wound, blunt 614 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: force trauma, you open up an area and when that 615 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: area is opened up because it is exposed, that soft 616 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 1: tissue is exposed that promotes more or more rapid decomposition 617 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: in that specific area, and if the body is exposed 618 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: to the elements in this case, of course it wasn't 619 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 1: the case would gain them. But if you have the 620 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: body out in a say a wooded area, just laying 621 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: on the floor of a forest, we're going to have 622 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: larval development with maggots and flies and all that sort 623 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,959 Speaker 1: of stuff, and then you have the chance that vermin 624 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: are going to come by and that area begins to 625 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: break down. So the trick is, do you have the 626 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: skill set in order to interpret what is decomposition from 627 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: what we refer to as decompositional artifact versus some kind 628 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: of anti mortem injury or fatal injury into mortem being 629 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: before death. And so that's a real skill set that 630 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: you have to have to obtain and refine over a 631 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: period of time, and many times it's dictated by the 632 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: environment which you practice. And that's why it's so essential 633 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: that this particular practitioner, this fantastic medical examiner, was from Florida, 634 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: that she was able to see all of these injuries 635 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: and appreciate them and contextualize them from the environment in 636 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: which Cannon's body was discovered. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 637 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: this is bodybags.